Kevin Holloway · 62 min
After losing his wife and business partner of nearly 40 years, Kevin Holloway turned decimating grief into a living curriculum on courage, identity, and what it truly means to be, not just behave, as the person you want to become.
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Nearly 40 years together, Kevin Holloway and his wife Mandy built a leadership business and a life around the concept of courage. When Mandy died three and a half years ago, Kevin lost not only his partner but also his business partner, his collaborator, and the person who handled much of the public-facing work while he worked behind the scenes. The grief was decimating. What followed was not a smooth recovery but something messier and more honest: a deliberate, hard-won reconstruction of himself through the study of being.
Kevin discovered ontology, the study of being rather than behaviour, and worked through 31 different ways of being, from courage and compassion to presence and vulnerability. He learned that you can hold fear and still act, that gratitude shifted from 17th on his values list to the top five, and that grief does not follow a neat curve. It scribbles. It loops back. It hits you on random days, years later, with the same force as the beginning. The difference is that now he stays present with it instead of running from it.
What changed Kevin's survival into something like thriving was a choice to reach out rather than isolate. He called people the night Mandy died. He had over a thousand conversations with family, friends, clients, and eventually men he did not know through his local men's mental health group. He started playing tennis at seven on Monday mornings with a friend and kept showing up. He stopped measuring success by what he owned or how many people acknowledged him, and started measuring it by what he gave back to humanity in the moment, not after the fact. Today, he works as an ontological coach, helping others understand that becoming the person you want to be is possible, even after everything breaks.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses grief & loss, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • Lifeline (24/7 crisis support): 13 11 14 · lifeline.org.au • GriefLine: 1300 845 745 · griefline.org.au
“I've said to people that for 20 years I was teaching the theory and then for the last three and a half years I got volunteered into a practical.”
“It's hard to do the process but it's not hard to start the process because that courage is there.”
“I'm not afraid to cry in front of anybody anymore, you know. It's just if it happens, it happens. And if you can't handle it, I can't do anything about that.”
The hero, today
Kevin learned that you can hold fear and still act courageously, and that understanding this shifted him from surviving to moving forward with intention. After three and a half years of deliberate work on his ways of being, Kevin no longer measures success by what he owns or how many people acknowledge him, but by what he gives back to humanity in the moment, not after the fact. Kevin chose to reach out and have conversations with over a thousand people rather than isolate after Mandy died, and that act of connection became how he processed his grief and helped others. Kevin stopped trying to avoid grief around milestones and holidays, and instead began staying present with the sadness until the memories became warming rather than triggering. Kevin now frames everything that comes up in his life as a learning opportunity rather than a 'why me', and this shift in how he relates to difficulty changed his ability to keep moving forward.
Yes. Kevin Holloway is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Kevin learned that you can hold fear and still act courageously, and that understanding this shifted him from surviving to moving forward with intention.
After three and a half years of deliberate work on his ways of being, Kevin no longer measures success by what he owns or how many people acknowledge him, but by what he gives back to humanity in the moment, not after the fact.
Kevin chose to reach out and have conversations with over a thousand people rather than isolate after Mandy died, and that act of connection became how he processed his grief and helped others.
Welcome back to Kugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. What does it take to rebuild yourself after losing everything you built together? Today I speak with Kevin Holay, a business leader, ontological coach, and co-founder of Courageous Leaders, a venture he built alongside his wife Mandy over 20 years. After nearly four decades of partnership, Kevin was decimated with grief at the loss of Mandy. His recovery from grief has led him into deeper questions of courage, acceptance, and what it truly means to show up for yourself and others. This is a conversation about pain, about resilience, about men's mental health community, and especially about becoming the person you want to be. Ladies and gentlemen and listeners to Kugi Heroes podcast, here we go again. another uh conversation uh with me John Milum your host and uh my guest today who uh is um someone I am very much looking forward to not only lived experience but also uh a long history of of you know sharing wisdom and teaching others h in the business world and now uh Kevin Holloway you are now um sharing uh hard one wisdom with men and uh and similar groups uh on a more sort of relational basis. Right. So, welcome to Consugi Heroes, Kevin Holay. Thanks very much, John. Thanks for um having me on. Um I'm looking forward to this conversation as well. Absolutely. And of course the theme for today and I I rarely offer a theme up because usually it's a bit of a mystery to me as well. But I love uh one word for you and it's in your the title of your business and that word is courage. I and I I offer that you I embrace that as a theme today because you know I think it the world around us and us as individuals we need to you know in my thinking is we need to explore this deeply right to get better outcomes for ourselves for those we love and our communities Kevin what's your relationship with courage right it's part of your business name yeah Uh so uh my wife and I started a business way back in the early 2000s. Um and along the way we a leadership business and one along the way we renamed it as courageous leaders. Um and at the time we even I had the uh conversation with I said you know we are challenging the universe here. So let's see what where this goes. and and uh uh unfortunately one of the biggest challenges my wife passing away three and a half years ago. Um but uh or and I should say uh we had nearly 40 years together. We had over 20 years together uh in business developing our company. Um we've got two beautiful daughters and uh you know obviously the grief and all the rest of it uh is what led me down the mental health path. um and um seeking other people to talk with but it's it's also given me a lot of learning given me the opportunity I should say not the lot of learning I've I've worked hard at it over the three and a half years now I've um looked into so many things and in in the first 6 8 months I was overwhelmed I just took on everything I could from everybody um and then started to slow it down a bit and really focus and also then come back to all our work that we had done together around courage. Yeah. Um and it it's it's essentially one of the foundations for for had had been for us and is still for me these days. And in fact, I've just completing an updated ebook that my wife wrote um eight years ago and it's still getting downloaded. So you know courage courage is there and and it's it's it's a cornerstone and an anchor for me to um to use uh through through this this process that I'm going through and it's it's ongoing. It's not it's not like I'm I'm the guru of courage now all of a sudden it's it's there's so much learning and the more you learn the more awareness you bring to it the more you learn. Yeah. Yeah. It's a classic. I think the the indication of a lot of learning is often somebody who sits there going, "Wow, I've got so much more learning to do, right? Whereas uh not a lot of learning." And Dunning Krueger, I think, has a bit of play, right? Where you sometimes don't even know what you don't know. So, Oh, absolutely. And that's that's one of the learnings. So I um coincidentally I got in well my wife Mandy got invited to to a meeting after she had passed away you know like weeks after and um I took the meeting and it turned out to be my introduction to ontology the study of being right uh and I've spent the last three and a half years u studying so many different facets and becoming a coach in in ontology in in the ways of being and a particular uh profile called the being profile. So it's about being rather than behavior. Yeah. So u that's been a huge help to me as well. How do you define being? Right. Is it identity or is it more? Is it identity plus the universe plus whatever. Right. Yeah. So um at the core is your whatever you want to call it, your soul, your spirit. Um but it's it's the ways of being. So we I work with 31 ways of being through a profiling tool and um and it addresses things like awareness, integrity, effectiveness and it looks at moods as well and how moods play out in the primary and the secondary ways of being things like compassion like courage u partnership all those sorts of things. So as I work through those things I've come back and only recently I started doing this ebook again. uh for some reason I got to that space where it was okay to look back at my wife's work and and well and her her words and and her work but our our building of the the business together around courage. Uh and then and and it it was it was quite an interesting feeling. It it there was like um something just lifted off my shoulders again. Wow. So there's been a lot of that over the three and a half years. There's been lots of bits and pieces, but this was just like, h, I'm actually referencing something and I'm telling my story now because this is my story that I that I I have to tell if I want to. Often with grief, um, and it's a very if it's okay to explore that a little bit. Yeah, please. For sure. Often with grief, you know, you know, people tell us it's a journey, it's an arc, it's a, you know, time, right? Um and yet I have never found it that way. You're like you you describe that first period of overwhelm and now there's almost a lifting. Yeah. What do you think is the cat is the catalyst for change between one state and another? Well, I I think um with all the studying that we had done and and the teaching that we had done um around the behavioral um styles um this stepping over essentially to the other side and looking back at yourself from an internal state and being really honest with how you are with all these different fear and anxiety and so on. um and understanding that you can be with like fear for example and still have the courage to do something. Yeah. So all of these break these 31 ways that I've stepped through in my learnings over the last three and a half years um have given me different milestones along the way. Um particularly uh I remember when I was doing my coaching accredititation um there were two a chapter on love and forgiveness but it was love for yourself and it was like wow and then you know and then forgiveness is to forgive you don't have to forget but forgive because it's only hurting you you know and there's so much out there we we've got all these quotes that we can pull from that say exactly that the only person that's hurting is yourself and so there there was these have been milestones, stepping stones along the way and and the latest one that talking about the ebook was just another one of those. It's like ah I can really really and I can let go you know if this if my business doesn't carry on it's not the end of the world anymore because I feel more whole. I feel more in being with all these different ways of being. The um do you mind if I ask you about your wife? What was she like? Um so we did we did um the typical in a way I guess of leadership profiling tools uh myers sorry MBTI and yeah where's that going um and value pay you anything for today mate I should put that up front yeah I saw that in the contract anyway um no and Um and uh and then we used LSI lifestyles inventory. Um and um the circumflex. So we we had we had a yeah the circumlex. We had we've had a lot of learning and and qualifications and and teachings with all of those tools. And I've I've said to people uh in recent times that for 20 years I was teaching the theory and then for the last three and a half years I got volunteered into a practical. Wow. It's like I didn't I didn't ask to be here, but I'm here. And that's one that's one heavy demo, mate. That is one heavy demo. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's ongoing. That's that's one of the things that I know is that this curiosity and learning for the rest of my life. This is not a a thing that I'll get over in two years or three years or four years. And in fact, I was having a conversation just a little while ago about um the time, you know, I I've actually come to uh a realization that this is where I'm at now has taken me longer than I thought I would. And um and it's it's been three and a half years, nearly four years, and I'm I'm here. And I'm really proud of where I am. Yeah. But it's if id have gone back and said, "Okay, this is where I'm going to be in three and a half years." cuz I was in no that's you know too slow too slow impatience that yeah that's exactly right but going back to your question so my wife was um had the um um she was uh introverted extroverted sorry and um but we we had very similar uh other than I'm more uh theoretical and she is more feeling in the in the bridge she was yeah so I I'm NTP and she was E NFP, right? So, um, so lots of learning and we used that as a family cuz with my two daughters, we we we created our team and we went through all this. So, we had a lot of understanding. So, myself and my daughters had a lot to fall back on when when when my wife passed away. Um, but she was she was totally outgoing, you know, and I've I've I've jokingly said along the way now, uh, because I did a lot of the backend work, uh, as part of our business and she was the facilitator. Um, now that she's gone, I can actually get a word in edgeways and I've and I've and I've really loved being put, you know, really pushed into the forefront and I I'm just really taken to it. It was just wasn't me at all. So that does that surprise you like you like it sounded like um the you know 40year partnership which like for you must have been incredibly uh dislocating right you've lost your work partner as well as your life partner you know and all those complimentary services that she offered um from a professional and a personal ba um kind framework. There you are standing without that. Of course, there's the grief of the process of someone passing through illness and so on. And then there's, you know, you left without all of the things that you know have been sort of you've been relying on personally to to exist. What what how do you keep moving from that point? Well, coming back to the being profile, that's one of the things that got me to understand how I am being with certain things, the ways of being. Now, I how I'm being with partnership, how I'm being with love, how I'm being with relationship, all of those things. And I I have a curious mind and I'm really thankful that it was expanded along the way. and I chose to to look and and learn more about my process rather than go sit in a corner and just can't cope with it. So, it's it's hard work. It's absolutely hard work and half the time you're exhausted that choice. Can you do you can you remember like that like was that like literally going yeah I'm going to go this way which I you know is me refraraming my life and you know finding a way to keep going. Did was that a choice you can sort of you know feel now right like cuz you know the attraction of sort of sitting in that overwhelm must have been huge. Yeah. Um um uh fortunately, you know, I say this in uh inverted commas. Um we were with a bunch of really close friends when it happened. Um and it was actually in Canada. It wasn't even here. And um um and we had known each other for a long time. So uh humor was used. We you know really dark humor and you know obviously very dark at the time but but it was a was a outlet. The other thing for me was that I, you know, the the the day that the night that it happened, I started calling people and because we were on the other, you know, in Canada, um, I I've called clients, I've called, you know, obviously family and so on. Um, and that was a real cathartic way of me dealing with it. It actually helped me. And I've had so many I've had over a thousand conversations with people in exactly this. and some of it like like this really deep stuff and u it's been it's it's been an amazing experience for me. So I chose that I just stepped into that but it wasn't a conscious thought of well I've got to do this. It was just something that was there in my relationship and and and we had formed over the the long period of time that we were together that um allowed me to access this this these these ways of of of moving through or moving forward with uh with what was going on because you know obviously it's a massive massive blow. Um and and it's a massive blow for me. to lose my partner and my business partner, but the the other real hurt is watching my daughters go through their grief. Yeah. And and that tears me apart even more. So, I can handle my own stuff because you you know it's you. Um but watching watching this over time and uh and hats off to them. They've they've worked really hard at it and uh um I'm really proud of them for where they've got to so far as well. But um I remember um we came back from Canada and uh we were sitting with Mandy's sister and my two daughters and um uh at my daughter's place and then I I said um I needed to go home to my unit to see whether I even want to be there. And and I was just saying this to someone the other day. I I walked in and it was like a big hug. Oh wow. And I've just been so comfortable and and so many things since then have been, you know, comforting. Um, another really weird story and and you know, whether people believe this or not and um is lights flashing. So, you know, this is a supposedly a sign. I've got so many stories about lights flashing and with the same people the three months different conversations and the thing happening again and again and again. So I I remember because I live in Manley in Sydney and um I we used to go to the we had a particular bench on the beachfront and I'd go and sit there in the evenings and just talk to Mandy and the lights would just flash above my head and it wouldn't be just one because you know that that globe wasn't working properly. It would be halfway down and then back. So there's been there's been some amazingly wonderful things that have happened to me uh because of the trauma that's happened in my life. You know, I would not choose it. No. Which is, you know, goes without saying, but um one of the things that um cuz we also do values as part of our leadership programs and we've done we've done that over a period of time, number of times. Um gratitude used to be number 17 out of 24 in the list of mine. Wow. And it's now in the top five. Yeah. Yeah. And at first it shocked me. It's like, okay, why? And then you start to realize that, you know, you are still here. Yeah. And you can choose to live as well as you can when your partner didn't have that opportunity. So keep coming back that you know like they often you know like it's been said that comparison is the thief of joy but um it's also that you know the opportunity for learning right you know like you know who am I without my partner and you know that that process uh you've described as hard is really important. What what um when you say it's hard and your daughter's journey through grief is hard, are we you like are we watching courage in action? Is that what you tapped into to keep that forward that growth happening? Yeah. Well, I think the courage as I said was like an a foundation or anchoring point for me to move into all these other things to look at. One of the things that um came came out for me. So the first two years I really struggled to do business. I did business but my daughter my younger daughter looked after my business and she took on the responsibility of all the financial stuff and I got to that stage um and and I looked at the responsibility that I was sherking and said well I can't do this anymore cuz I'm you know I'm not helping her. So all these things came along at the times that they needed to come along fortunately. And then I had the courage to say, well, I've got to take that back. I've got to do this. I've responsible responsibilities. But yeah, courage is is definitely for all of us, you know, even to have those conversations and and when you hear one of your daughters say, you know, how much more character do we have to build and why does our mother have to die for us to learn more? Yeah. What kind of lesson is that, you know? Yeah. Exactly. Why do I need to keep doing that? You know, it's like I can't answer. The other thing though that that uh from a courage point of view is that it's got me to the stage where I've surrendered to what I can't control. Okay. And that happened very early on, but I didn't understand it. So over time, I've I've understood it better. It's like let it go. If it's something you can't control, there's nothing you can do about it. And that's happened in so in other relationships and uh you know conversations with other colleagues and friends and and and and and my my daughters as well. It's just u something you got to come back to and it's something I choose to. So I guess it's it's hard it's hard to do the process but it's not hard to start the process because that courage is there. Yeah. Beyond the pros, would it be fair to say especially you know you know tapping into your experience through and especially this last three and a half years um would it be fair to say that you know because it's hard the outcome at the end when you get it finally like no one guarantees doing it right all the time. isn't isn't a one single solution for life. But when you make progress through the reward is you know is you know less misery or more joy or like I don't even measure it like that. I just it's joy and I'm present and that's the other that's another one of the ways of being being present with it. And I was again I was talking the conversation I had just before this call. Um we were talking about celebrating something you know um um person going through uh cancer treatments and then there's has got to a remission or whatever you know we we need to take those moments and celebrate that yes the road's still going to be long and hard you know and no idea of the outcome but let's let's be present with what's happening right now. So the presence was one of the big things there for sure. So being present in that moment of joy means that you are choosing that you know to be happy or to be content or to be comfortable or to be satisfied fulfilled without like without having to mitigate it right like just because to the next moment might have another challenge but in this moment it's only joy. Is that the answer to grief or is that the purpose of grief? Um it's probably both. Yeah. Um I I I don't know what the purpose to grief is. Um because it's so hard. Um um but it is it's it's part of living. Yeah. That's just part of our lives. Yeah. You know, grief in so many different ways. We're designed that way. We're going to bump into it, right? So abs and and that that's another learning that I learned is like life is hard. Yeah. So let's celebrate those moments of joy and not not look forward to what could go wrong next. Let it let it come when it comes and deal with it then. And that comes back to the ways of being of being um understanding how you are being with fear with anxiety um and vulnerability all those sorts of moods. how I can uh use that as as a as a way of actually working my way through whatever the situation is. And I've chosen along the way um really to be present with my own suffering. You know, I've I've uh I've I've sat on my own, baldled my eyes out. I've gone to intuitive massuses and baldled my eyes out on the table. All these sorts of things. And um and been okay with that. And the other thing that um one of the big learnings for me is that there's a lot of stuff I don't care about anymore. Yeah. Yeah. But there's there's there's certain things that I care even much more deeply than I used to. And mental health is one of them. Now, I didn't I was fortunate I didn't have any. My daughter has anxiety. So, I've I've seen some of it, but didn't really understand it. Yeah. and and that's opened my eyes to the you know mental health and in particular with uh working with Mongol's men like I do in Manley um spending the time talking to different people and and and then you also get some learnings from all these other stories along the way. Yeah, we probably should for the listeners contextualize Mongrels Men which is a local men's group rather than just a group of mongrels that they hang around. Yeah, it's not the it's not the new it's not the New Zealand Baky Gang some people have asked us. Yeah. So, it's just it's a mental a men's mental health charity uh and uh has has 30 odd chapters now and uh has been a really great way for me to process part of it. But it's not the only way and you know I I came to this I didn't I didn't get you know pulled into it or anything like that. So there's the curiosity again and the courage to step up and talk about it with other people that you don't even know initially. We're really writing a list for you know for men's survival th to thrive thriving right which is like gratitude curiosity courage of course right so well I'll have to keep putting little ticks against some of these words acceptance right which is a powerful one there um I I loved uh you when you br you you bring up um men's mental health of course yesterday was international men's day and um you mentioned mentioned uh that you know uh you know some people might think that your um you know attitude to the hearing from your wife or seeing signs from your wife was a certain thing right and and we frame that uh that's sort of touching on the shame stigma of being outside of you know the understanding of what a man's supposed to be and yet you know is that one of the things that just doesn't matter to you anymore that's changed. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And and I've anyone that will listen to that story, I'll tell it. And I've got photos to prove these events as well. Yeah. It's I guess it's a way of um and and and initially it was warming me, you know. Now it's just okay. Hello Mandy. I'm glad you're still letting me know you're around. So you know I've I've got to a further stage in my grief cycle that um uh along the grief cycle and just just talking about the the grief cycle um one of my programs one of my workshops is leading change and the grief the the grief cycle is is part of that and um it's done in a sort of curved uh graph you know from left to right upwards and and I've said to people It it doesn't look like that at all. If if it looks like what and I grew up in South Africa so I don't know the um where the spyroraphs were a big thing. That's what it that's exactly what it looked like for me. If I had to draw my experience and keep drawing it'll be all over the place from you know despair, acceptance, all of that sort of stuff. I can remember my 10th Christmas you know being excited to get the big spyraph set. Um yeah. I know u see that's interesting isn't it because you know that that nature of time you know people think that you know everything runs along from one state to another but of course um grief can hit you just as hard you know after a number of years you know do you what do you do in that moment like because what you know I I found initially for many years it was about trying to avoid them through mo you minimizing milestones or whatever. Yeah. Distractions. Yeah. But now there's actually comfort in having like, you know, going being able to access the memories and having that moment of connection even if it is a bit sad or a bit Yeah. And um and I've got to the stage where their memories are warming. Um they're heartfelt now, not triggering anymore. There's still songs that come up from time to time. Um, one of the things that I used to going back to how how I stayed present with the grief was I um would put on romcoms, romantic comedies and b or Christmas ones particular and just bore my eyes out for hours, you know, on Sunday afternoon or something like that when there's no one else around. And uh it but the big part of that is staying present with it and letting it letting it finding ways to get these emotions moving out of your body as well. Yeah, and I still do that. You know, even last night I was just uh scrolling on Tik Tok and I was uh some older music came up and it was like, "Ah, okay. I'll just sit with this for the minute and uh and that's okay." And I and I'm not and this is where my vulnerability comes in. I'm not uh afraid to cry in front of anybody anymore, you know? I It's just if it happens, it happens. And if if you can't handle it, I can't do anything about that. Yeah, it it's such an important um lesson. It's a lesson that men, you know, I feel men should be um having or or embracing. I would love it to not to not involve the loss of their spouse, right? So, how do we have that, you know, how do we share the news that um faith is belief without evidence and it's okay to just embrace that if it serves you, you know, like just have a moment where you know somebody is communicating you if that turns your heart on without having to worry about what someone else will think about you or whether you're getting woo. So, how do we lead men in? What how do you turn that kind of courage on? I guess you got to challenge. Yeah, you got to challenge the the state of being for people. Uh and only the people that are accepting of that challenge will move forward. Yeah. And and and and I know for in some parts of my stage going through this, I I failed. You know, I I I've found a distraction because I didn't want to. And then I came back to that uh the learning and the understanding of well you know if I want to move forward keep moving forward I I'm choosing to access this and it is it's a choice thing and and it's it's in the right time for when it plays out for you because you can go and hear someone talk you can talk to somebody but if it's not landing for you in that moment that's okay. But it but if you if you interested in in in in doing something about it, come back to it if it doesn't land straight away or if it's too hard, you know, find find your ways. I've, you know, like I said, intuitive healers, um, all sorts of things like that. Emotion code I use as well. All sorts tapping, all these things I just I use and they all help me in some little space to move to that next step. So it it's a personal choice. Um and and and that that's a difficult one because in our lives now, you know, we want to be told or given the silver bullet to okay, I never want to feel like this. How do I do it? You know, give me the five minute video or whatever it is. And it's it's it's much harder and longer than that. So that conditioning to fi to have a solution handed to us right which is the modern society you know everything from AI to you know pharmaceuticals right has set us up. So men will often that moment of le you know of pressure or you know that sense of you know that embodied anxiety that overwhelm and we our outlets are destructive. You know often you know we can go to substances or to relationships that don't work or uh you know we you know work we can use work as a drug. um when we make a choice to move away from those and to and lean into that challenge, how how do you do it? You know, like you know, that's a that's a that's a point where you've got to go one way and not another, you know, how do we encourage men to do that? Yeah. So, so what what I did initially when I was doing the overwhelm um of I then weeded out the the things that weren't going to serve me um for what I needed at that point. Yeah. You know, I I I I joined a a different men's group before I joined Mongrels and um it didn't work for me, but I understood I understood the the pro the you know, it's a fantastic organization, but it wasn't for me. So I then was curious enough to say okay what what can I do? How do I do that? The other thing for me and it comes back to connection is finding people that will not just be yes people to you that will um challenge you. Yeah, if you if there's something that came up that something that you know you may not want to hear in the moment, but accepting that that's that's what someone else is seeing of what you're going through at that moment and taking on an honest learning. The other that's the really huge thing for me is that everything that comes up for me you know in the last probably the last two and a half years now is is seen as a learning not as a why me but I I've got people around and I and I fortunately had a lot of people around me anyway from my from my business and um you know a lot of sport um activities and things like that. Um, one of the people, um, I really struggled to get the my week started and one of the guys that I played a lot of soccer with and football with, uh, he was a tennis player and he said, "Why don't we start playing tennis at 7:00 on a Monday morning?" Three and a half years later, we're still playing. Wow. So, your um, so your your week starts with a volley smash every week. So, yeah, absolutely. And some work is harder than others, more smashing than others as well. Yeah, that's right. So, you know, and and so I just I looked at what was out there. Yeah. And what would work for me and and you you have to try things anyway. Yeah. Cuz you you don't know until you try them. But but having people um like these friends around me um are just um you need to have that connection. You need to find that you you may not have it initially. I was lucky to have it, but you you you need to reach out and find it in and keep trying until it it actually really does connect. I think um I'm going to add connection to the list. Right. So now absolutely. Well, that's that's a big one. Yeah. Yeah. Curiosity, connection, courage, a lot of C's and then acceptance. Uh yeah. And and gratitude, right? So that's so far. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I've got 31 ways of being that I could add to I've only given you some of them, but u one of the other ones is compassion. Beautiful. Yeah. So, when I when I um went back and had conversations with people after my wife died that had been divorced before that, was totally different conversations. Oh, wow. Was that because you you know you felt um um something you know about like the loss that they had gone through? Yeah. Right. Instead of just judging the divorce. Wow. Yes. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the convers and that compassion with gratitude because one of the things in my programs that I did I had to do take get five people and and um have a gratitude convers and we've had this we had that uh challenge a month or so ago but I did this in my studies as well. Uh but I had to do a specific um uh gratitude thing like okay so when you said this to me this is how it made me feel and I just want you to know that I'm really grateful for that beautiful and I tell you what the conversations I had leading off that just went to another level. So that that brought the you know all of those things together but compassion and uh the courage to have those conversations. I had them with both of my daughters as well and um and and a couple of the colleagues that I had had them with um you know they told me things that they probably haven't told many people because there was they just built that trust and then that helps the the conversations keep going down that track. I I'm so I find that so interesting. Right. Just recently I've been ruminating on um how I answer the phone and um see the idea of gratitude in the tone of of my voice, not just the way the words that I say. And I I've noticed people um sort of taking a double look, you know, like the old second double take when they, you know, oh, you know, they answer the phone in a with a low kind of, you know, oh, hello, John, you know, and then you go, "Ah, good day, Lyn." You know, like give them the gratitude tone and they take a second look at, you know, a second take at it going, "Oh," and there's a little a little there's a lifting of the tone. It's so powerful for changing the you know I I can make a change and that change will without imposing it will change others. Isn't that Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And you know and I I've I've gone down well I've always really been more of a spiritual person than a religious person. So you know it's not to say one's right or or not. Um but um I talk about vibrations and the energy and the higher your vibrations the the higher the energy that comes to you as well from whatever aspect you know whether it's work relationships you know family whatever it is. Yeah. But what what do you think vibration is? What are we what are we emitting? What are we taking in when we're responding to that? Well, um the the way that I try and make sense of it is that we are energy and energy emits vibration. So if you can keep changing your vibration to the the next level and the next level, you'll attract the similar vibration. And and that comes back to compassion. All those things that help you move um through. And you can look at it, it doesn't have to be, you know, looked at as a vibration or an energy, you know, it could just be a human being, you know, which is what it is. Anyway, you mentioned compassion and it's such a powerful place for a man in particular to go, right? Because it's not just empathy, is it? It's more than No. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And absolutely. Sorry, just to interrupt there. So in my in my learning again I got I got given the definition of empathy and compassion you know and sympathy before that. So sympathy empathy is like yes I feel sorry for you and and then compassion is well I want to do something with you about it. Yeah. So it's not just putting yourself in their shoes and sorry to interrupt. No no that's absolutely it right. So um so when we when we take compassion and um connection and communication so often um modern society and in particular the the man box you know like how we measure our our significance by how many things we have or um and how you know how powerful we are, how many people acknowledging us or or aware of us or how many followers we have. So now that you've some things don't mean much to you and some things are vitally important, where is that on on your scale? How do you see that particular aspect of masculinity these days? So for me and I've had a number of conversations uh just as as early as Wednesday um yesterday sunny Thursday today um um I I measure I've never had role models. I've never looked up to people and and I didn't know why until until this this this last period where um I I judge success by the humanity that it gives rather than the the material wealth or whatever it is. And I've had serious discussions with people that are putting these people up on pedestals because they trillionaire or whatever it is. And it's like, yeah, but hang on a minute. You know what? How have they helped the workers? Yes, they've given them a job, but at what and there there's a whole range. So, for me, it's it's around um what what you give back to humanity in your success and not after the fact. I'm talking, you know, you know, you got you got these these billionaires that then um give money back and that's great, but it's after the fact. I'd like to see it happening in the moment at the time. Share, you know, some of that extra wealth that you have. um with the with the workers so that they can they can live a a different life again. It's so crazy presupposing you've got all this wealth and people go, "Well, he's a good blog. He's giving it back." And I go, "Well, what if he actually shared it at the time of acquisition?" Right. Exactly. It it it's like um going back and burying the bodies of of all the people you killed along the way. Well, it's a good act, but it's hardly worth praising, you know, since they wouldn't be dead unless you killed them, right? So, yeah. And and that's that's definitely changed. I mean, I've I think I've been like that subconsciously up until three and a half years ago. And then through this this journey that I've been on for the last three and a half years, that's really come to the four and it's um you know, I've had not heated conversations, but serious conversations with people putting people up on pedestals because of the wealth that they've generated. I' I'd like to see that shared better. I I love um I love you know the message is that what your um what on your study of ontology and your coaching and and you know your um workshops and and programs is that what you're doing now is that the message don't wait right uh or something along those lines you know you can be a better human right and that's a measure like are you helping people understand that yeah that's exactly it so I've I've incorporated the being profile um rather than the behavioral tools into my leadership program. Um and it's all about uh conversation and connection um and uh responsibility and accountability for the for the individual. So I I send out pre-ereads for my workshops and if the person doesn't read it, that doesn't that's not my problem. Now, if they choose not to do that, that's how they choose to to to be in at the moment. And sometimes there's a reasons for it obviously, but um yeah. No, and and I will have the conversation that I'm having and drive the conversation around that um topic. Yeah. Based on my assumption that they have done the work. Yeah. So, so invitation to be a grownup. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So, so you know from that like we you know could we um you know decide that the you know the the challenge for men is to be more mature right like we we've got a society full of immature you know sort of men or you know that might be the result but it's it's what we choose and how we choose to get towards that that that goal rather than choosing the result you know I uh played a lot of sport in my life. I've coached and I still coach now and and I still use that uh saying about focus on the process and the result will take care of itself. So to me that's the result and the process of being curious uh about loving yourself about you know being courageous all of those things help build to get to that result because who who defines what a mature male is you know we we've got everyone talking now about you know how males should be well if we could just be humans then that would all fall away but how How do we do that? And how do we choose to do that? You know, how do we become more vulnerable and accept that vulnerability is a good thing, you know, not something that we we want to hide? It's interesting. I I like I find that um you know, when you've done enough work to be more vulnerable and and connected to everybody, then you cease to judge them anyway. Right. So, the fact that they fall short doesn't bother you in the same way, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then you don't even measure the them falling short. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does it doesn't come into the equation at all. You've released the attachment to being a certain way. Yeah. I love that. Um it's interesting you the way you like renovating ourselves, right? So men choosing men choosing to work, you know, the DIY process, right? I I was talking to someone. They talked about, you know, they said, "Oh, the red flags in relationships and so on. And it I wondered at the time um why are we seeing red flags, right? Is aren't the red flags the the projection of what we don't like in ourselves? It's the mirror. It's the mirror. Yeah. Absolutely. And and we've used this in our leadership programs through the last 20 years. Hold it's anything that's happening is holding up a mirror to you. and and and and and only in the last period have I found a way to say what am I learning from this not why me or that shouldn't be happening to me or it's your fault or whatever if and and every single thing I do now it's like okay what's the lesson in this and then look at it from and that's comes back to the ontological way of being rather than behaving you know I can behave behave courageously, but that doesn't mean that I am. And that and that the connection between that is the flow that if you can get to that stage, it's it's an amazing feeling when you are in the flow. We've all all been in flow in parts in so many different things. And if we can do that more, uh then that just makes makes everything easier. Holding up a mirror, it's a really challenging metaphor for most BS, right? Because we don't like looking at ourselves in the mirror. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the process? How do we courageously look at that? And then what do we say to that person that we see in the mirror? Yeah. Well, so getting to look at yourself in the mirror. Yeah. As a metaphor, um you need to have the courage to do that in the first place, right? And you need to have the curiosity to have the awareness around what you understand or don't understand or would like to understand. Yeah. What? Okay. So, a red flag. Well, there's something that you got to change. No, there's a red flag. So, there's something that I'm and I might not be the the reason for it, but it's there. So something if I can find something in me that I can change that'll change that will reduce the red flag and change something else maybe. Yeah. And if it doesn't it doesn't but if it does wow that you know it's a much better place to be. And if it doesn't um the you know the learning from that is well so for me the the learning is you set your intentions. Okay. I want this relationship to work. Whatever it is, you right. But at the same time, understand that there are consequence to to your intentions and you have to accept what they are, what what they what they are when you when it happens, you know. So keep working from instead of do be have. Yeah. I do go from be do have. Yeah. Yeah. So to have what you want you you need to do what you need to do to have it. But mo most importantly you have to be the person who can do that to have that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's very easy to do the do be because you know we can we can mask easily and that's what that's what in our society we've done a lot of the time. you know, we go to work, we put on this this facade or this mask and we work there and we go home and we drop that and we do something differently. If we can do both of those together in a more authentic way, our life's become easier. Yeah. Yeah. Some of the consequences may not be, but you know, but they're not meant to be painless, right? You like No, no, consequences can be hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I set my intentions at the beginning of this year. I set intentions across all spheres of my life and um and I also um I do another series of podcasts and one of them was on setting intentions and being with the consequences that they that come about from those intentions. So yeah, we so all the work you've done to uh on being and the journey that that you know your phys your personal journey that accompanied that um what what what do you think that will ultimately what's the poster boy from someone who is living with intention and awareness of the 31 states and and all that what what what is the ultimate expression of that uh just being effective in what you striving for and that's that's individual you know it's it's absolutely individual you you you want to strive to do be whatever um um then you've got to work through that process and uh the other thing for me is I'm never going to get there anyway. Yeah. Not because not because I'm lazy, because it's it's going to change. Yeah. As as I become aware of something, I'm more aware of things I don't know. And then I choose to look at that and then that opens another Pandora's box and another one and away we go. Your priorities cannot remain the same the more you expand your world. So, no, that's right. And things change, you know. Now, I found that in a very hard way. I found that out. Um, you know, things change in a moment. And um that's what that's yeah whatever comes will I need to be prepared to be able to deal with it from an internal point of view and then it'll be easier for me to process whatever's going on and learn from it as well. And curiosity is a big one. Yeah. Be curious. you know, I'm I'm just I'm and and and sometimes I think I'm I'm too curious about things cuz I don't have enough time in a day to be curious for the things that I'd like to be curious about. I've got I've got books lined up on Audible. I've got podcast lined up. I haven't got to I call it shelf development. My shelf is highly developed, right? Because Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I probably I'm lagging a couple of years behind my shelf, right? It's quite exciting to be curious really, but it's also a daunting aspect, right? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. What when you when you you you talked about your daughter's uh uh you know sort of being involved in the business and all all of that, what what um what do you now um cuz attachment isn't part of the world of being, but what what do you hope your family will be right with you coming up to the Um that's a good question. Had really thought about that. I've just been in staying in present with Yeah. Yeah. What I I I know that my family uh will be there forever. I I have that as as clear as day in my heart that that that'll happen. I know that they'll they will be there for anything that I need and and have been already. Um we we so grateful for the the family that I have and including Mandy. Um, we've gone through stuff as families do and um and but work through them. The the conversations that the three of us have had since Mandy passed away, we never have a shallow conversation. And at times it's like, oh, come on. Can we just talk about the weather or something like that? No, we're going to talk about feelings and emotions and this and that. So, I I what all I ask for is that that continues. Yeah. and that my daughters are successful in the way that they want to be. Yeah. But can I ask you now uh you know given the uh extraordinary sort of changes um Kevin what do you what do you know love as? Um so firstly I know love as being loving myself and the things that I want. How do you do that for like bloss? Well, you I I just look at I looked at myself and I uh I was I didn't put down the stuff that I was successful in and things that I have been good at. I I'm maybe not humble. I guess in a way lots of people would see it like that. But if someone gives me a compliment these days, I will say yes, you're right. You know, rather than a thanks, but you know this I'm not good at deflecting. Yeah, that's right. So, it's it's it's owning your own authenticity and and and trying to be true to that. And you it's not like that's, you know, I'm at, you know, 10 out of 10 on any of these um ways of being. It's just that um I know where I'm where there shortcomings in in in any of those. So, in the love part, if there's something that I'm I've seen a flag on, I'm then taking the time to look at that and try and work out a better way to to deal with that. So, it's about loving myself. Um, it's about it's definitely about compassion and vulnerability and just being as honest and authentic as you can be. Wow. Yeah. What do you um what do you remind yourself every day to do to be um I think I said this in our gratitude workshop that I don't do it at the beginning of the day or the end of the day. I I do it when it comes up. So uh and I don't remind myself enough about how hard I work on myself. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't give myself as a I do a lot more than I used to, but I don't give myself as uh as much of a praise for doing the things that I'm trying to do. Wow. Yeah. And um is there anything you want to bring into your existence, into your being? Uh all of it. I I'm not I'm not perfect. I want I want I want to do all of it better, you know, and look at all of those ways. uh of of how I am being and and be a better person to be more effective for the intentions that I want to put out or or have put out. Yeah. Beautiful. I I call this um it's been amazing. Like I love that list we've got now which is like gratitude, acceptance, uh compassion, connection, curiosity. Um uh was there anymore? Um I'm going to go and think on all of those things. So you have really um lit the lit the burner for me and thinking on that stuff. So, thank you. I call this the Conan question. Conan the Barbarian. I don't know if you remember that old movie with Arnold Schwarzeneg. I know. Yeah. Um I I loved those books when I was young. And in the movie, he's asked the chief is sitting there and the young warriors in front of me. He says, "Corn, what is best in life?" So, Kevin, what is best in life? What is best in life? You're asking the meaning of life. Yeah. Well, that's what it feels like. It's the question that we have a problem with. What what is best in life? Um uh to to to be able to be the person you want to be. Yeah. And and you know, and that's and and that's in spite of challenges and whatever. Yeah. I I I just want to be um the the person that I would like to see myself as. Yeah. Yeah. And that encompasses all the relationships that that make that up. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very grateful that you're the person you want to be so far, right? Because it's been very very interesting and helpful. Thank you so much for joining us. Um, people when when me people out there have a challenge and they say, "I I'm interested in being some of the things I heard Kevin talking about, can they talk to you?" Yeah, absolutely. Um, the all over my business website, the the call to action is start a conversation. So I I will I will have a conversation a coffee um anytime with anyone you know obviously when it's practical uh but yeah I' I'd love that uh courage courageous courage leaders courage one word.com.au Hey. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then LinkedIn as well, you know, it doesn't matter how you find, there's so many ways to find me out there now, which is fantastic. Uh we can have a courageous conversation with Kevin. Thank you so much, mate. I Ki Heroes is very grateful and curious um and um compassionate and all of the other things, right? So, thank you very much, Michael. Thanks, John. and I'm curious as to what our next conversation's going to be. Thank you for listening to this episode of Ksugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lily for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kugiheroes and the stories we share, head to kugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a taxdeductible donation. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.
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Kevin stopped trying to avoid grief around milestones and holidays, and instead began staying present with the sadness until the memories became warming rather than triggering.
This conversation includes nearly 40 years together, the word courage and what it means now, meeting ontology after mandy died, the first six months of overwhelm, stepping from theory into the practical and the choice to reach out instead of isolate.
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