Holly Deane-Johns
The Light Bulb Moment: From 17 Years Inside to Rebuilding a Life of Purpose
Holly Deane-Johns spent 17 years in prison for addiction, then chose to spend her freedom helping others leave.
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Holly Deane-Johns
Holly Deane-Johns spent 17 years in prison for addiction, then chose to spend her freedom helping others leave.
Hear this story
Holly Deane-Johns spent 17 years in prison across three continents. She was arrested at 20 for heroin possession in Western Australia, then at 29 in Bangkok, where she received a 31-year sentence. For a decade she remained addicted, cycling through cells and survival. Then one morning, ten months into her Thai sentence, she woke on a filthy prison floor and saw clearly what her life had become. She made a decision that day to never use drugs again, and has kept it for over a decade. She learned Thai in prison, studied in the education centre once transferred back to Australia, and wrote a book documenting her entire experience from the first day of her arrest.
Today Holly works as a youth and community worker with men leaving prison. Her clients, most facing the same addiction and homelessness she once did, open up to her in ways they rarely do with anyone else. They know she has sat where they are sitting. Her parole officer told her she would not last when she was released in 2012. She proved him wrong. Her husband, her soulmate since age 16, passed away two and a half years ago from cancer. She did not return to using drugs. She did not give up her work.
Holly wants Australians to understand that most people in prison are not bad people. Many turned to drugs to mask trauma. She advocates for her clients, fights for housing and support when the system offers nothing, and works to get her book into every prison and high school in Perth. She believes a small act of kindness costs nothing and means everything to someone in despair.
“I woke up, I was sitting on the filthy ground, and I was just looking around at the scene that was going on around me, and I just had that clarity in that moment of, look where you are. Look what you've done to yourself. And yeah, it was in that moment that I made the decision to never ever use drugs ever again.”
“When my clients realize my story, they're blown away. The one thing I always hear is, thank you for sharing with us your story. Because now I understand that you can fully relate to the things I'm telling you. You've been where we are.”
“An addict is not going to stop using drugs until they 110% want to stop using drugs. If there's not that full-on desire to stop, you're not going to.”
The hero, today
An addict will not stop using drugs until they 110 per cent want to stop, and that has to come from inside them, not from anyone else's desire for them to change. When Holly woke up on the floor in the Bangkok prison, she saw clearly where her life had taken her and made a decision that day to never use drugs again, and she has kept that decision to this day. Her clients open up to her and trust her because she has sat where they are sitting now, and they know she understands what they are facing in ways that someone without lived experience cannot. She did not have a future while facing a 31-year sentence in Thailand, but once she knew she might go home to Australia, she started studying because she always knew she would do the work she is doing now. A little act of kindness costs nothing and can mean so much to somebody; when it is not in your immediate circle that someone ends up in jail or on drugs, people think differently about it, but kindness works anyway.
Yes. Holly Deane-Johns is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
An addict will not stop using drugs until they 110 per cent want to stop, and that has to come from inside them, not from anyone else's desire for them to change.
When Holly woke up on the floor in the Bangkok prison, she saw clearly where her life had taken her and made a decision that day to never use drugs again, and she has kept that decision to this day.
Her clients open up to her and trust her because she has sat where they are sitting now, and they know she understands what they are facing in ways that someone without lived experience cannot.
John Milham (Host) · 00:05
Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. So welcome, listeners, to another episode of Kintsugi Heroes: Stories That Matter. And as I always say, right, the We're really excited to have a huge story to share today. And it's a huge story in content, but in many ways it's a really important sort of everyday story, how life can go a number of ways, right? And to share that aspect of her story is Holly Dean-Johns. Welcome to Consiglio Heroes, Holly.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 00:53
Yeah, hi, thanks for having me on.
John Milham (Host) · 00:55
No, thank you. Now I should, I suppose, um, I should give a, a, a quick background so people can get up to speed. Um, you, you've, uh, you're a youth worker and a community worker and AOD support person now, um, which is like, uh, helping people with addictions and, and, you know, their social determinants, barriers to their fullest expression of life. Um, and you got to that place after your own journey through, uh, addiction and also the, the consequences of that addiction, right? So being, uh, you mentioned 17 years in, uh, various jails and, and, um, in various penal systems, right? Which seems like a huge chunk, and yet You know, here you are having a book about your experiences and doing talks and sharing your wisdom gained with the community and helping people directly based on your lived experience. Do you see yourself as having lost life, or is that part of your journey?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 02:14
Yeah, look, um, I, I'd have to say it's part of my, my, my story. If I hadn't have had the, the life that I have had, um, and all the experiences that go hand in hand with that, meaning, you know, prison, uh, you know, rehabilitation, all that type of thing, um, I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing today. Um, so I work with adults who were still in prison.
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She did not have a future while facing a 31-year sentence in Thailand, but once she knew she might go home to Australia, she started studying because she always knew she would do the work she is doing now.
This conversation includes a youth worker who spent 17 years in prison, what clients tell her when they find out her story, how heroin came into her world at 16, why rehab didn't work the first time, waking up on the floor in a thai prison and her mother's overdose while holly was handcuffed to a prison officer.
John Milham (Host) · 02:40
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 02:41
Um, I work for Wadjining Aboriginal Corporation, and I work in RESET, which is helping adult males who are due out of prison within 6 months, um, helping them, you know, with support once they're out— employment, housing, pretty much whatever support they need, we will try and offer them. Um, And I can be in contact with these clients for up to a year after their release. So I'm really enjoying working where I work because I used to sit where they're sitting now. So I really understand the struggles that they're having and what they will face once they get released from prison.
John Milham (Host) · 03:24
Yeah, it's amazing. And, and just for a minute, I, I'd love to go back and find out the the, you know, some of the aspects of your early years that led you to get into this pathway. But yeah, just fascinating with that, the, the how you sit, you know, and recognize that you were in their spot, uh, the lived experience of that is almost like another language. Uh, do you feel like you have a special connection, and do they feel like it's something that really makes it better or makes it more powerful to get support from somebody who has lived experience?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 04:06
Oh, look, 100%. When my clients realize my story, they're blown away, to say the least. The one thing I always hear is, thank you for sharing with us, you know, your story. Yeah. Because now I understand that you can fully relate to the things I'm telling you. You've been where we are. And I say, yes, I get it. Yeah. So I find that my clients are more inclined to open up to me and be completely honest because they know I've had the same sort of struggles that they're having. It's a pretty unique situation to be in.
John Milham (Host) · 04:48
Yeah. Is that a trust thing?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 04:51
Oh, definitely. Trust is a huge thing, especially for people in prison. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people have trust issues. A lot of people won't talk to the prison officers, they won't talk to anyone else in the, in the prison system. So yeah, I find that my clients open up to me and become very honest because I know they can be. I'm not going— I'm not there to judge them.
John Milham (Host) · 05:15
Yeah, so that is a very, like, a very difficult position to hold, right? So how did you practice having that sort of suspending the judgment and sort of holding, you know, being completely vulnerable and yet also, you know, protecting yourself from sort of, you know, connecting and over, over, you know, associating with, with, you know, with the, you know, with a lifestyle that you've kind of moved away from?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 05:48
Yeah, good question. Look, there has to be boundaries in place. You know, that's 100% for sure. Because I can only do so much.
John Milham (Host) · 06:03
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 06:05
And I love my job, so I'd never do anything to endanger me losing my job. Yeah. Yeah. Look, boundaries is a huge thing. You know, I've, I've lived long enough to understand that boundaries are there for a reason. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 06:21
Yeah. Uh, which is probably one of the really important things you're modeling for the people you've connected with, you know, because that, you know, boundaries is something like so many of us don't learn until we've already suffered consequences of it, of not knowing how to manage boundaries.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 06:40
Yeah. I mean, you know, obviously for anyone doing this type of work. You obviously have empathy for the people that you're working with. But yeah, you've got to know where to draw the line. There has to be that line. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 06:57
That's really, you know, it's really, it's wonderful that you can do that because it's a tough gig. When I think of your story, Holly, you know, you first bumped into, you know, legal challenge at 20, right? But obviously you were bringing a, um, a lifestyle to that point that got, you know, that saw you being outside of, you know, normal sort of rules, normal laws. How did you— how did that happen? Was like your childhood, um, uh, something that you wanted to get out of or get away from?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 07:34
Um, no. Not, no, not at that time. Um, yeah, so I was arrested when I was 20. Um, you know, I was a heroin addict at the time, a very, um, very bad heroin addict. Um, so, you know, having lived the life of a heroin addict since 16—
John Milham (Host) · 07:56
wow—
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 07:57
jail was sort of, I guess, always going to be on the cards. For me. It wasn't unexpected.
John Milham (Host) · 08:05
So you, you kind of saw it— it's what, overdose? It's jail? Those things are sort of real options when you're living that life?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 08:13
Oh, 100%. Um, yeah, you know, I've overdosed many times in my life and, and thankfully, you know, come out of it. Um, but yeah, when you're in that type of lifestyle, there's always the real, you know, thing of you, you will go to jail. You will be arrested because you're living an illegal life.
John Milham (Host) · 08:34
Yeah, I, I, I was talking to a great man who, you know, had sort of has a journey very similar to yours and now runs a rehab center for, for, uh, Indigenous men. He's doing beautiful work, but he, he was very passionate about saying, you know, I'm, uh, yeah, sure, I fish them out of a river, but the important thing is Um, I want us to all go upstream and find out why they're ending up in the river in the first place, right? And I wonder, how did you end up in that river, that heroin lifestyle, etc.?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 09:09
Um, so the way I describe it is, you know, I consider my childhood to have been pretty normal up until I was about 11, 12. Um, well, it wasn't that normal because my mother was running an escort agency out of the family home. Um, okay, yeah, so pretty early on, probably about 11, that started. Um, my parents separated when I was 12. My dad moved back to Melbourne, right? Um, you know, 5 of us kids were given the choice of whether to stay with Mum or not, or go and live with Dad. Um, we all chose Mum. My reason for choosing Mum was I was a teenager at that time. I was in high school, you know, I had my friends. I didn't want to have to start all over again somewhere else. Um, and the other reason was my dad was very strict and my mum wasn't, so that was a huge part of why I wanted to stay as well. Wow. Um, yeah, when I was about 15, my mum met a guy who we had no idea had been in prison, and we had no idea he was a heroin addict. Um, we'd never known people who use drugs. We'd never seen drugs. That had just never ever been in our world until Mum met this guy. Um, yeah, I guess when they met, this guy, you know, I'm sure he was seeing dollar signs because my mum was very wealthy. Yeah. Um, and then slowly, slowly, as time went by, um, his facade started to crack away, and we ended up seeing who he really was.
John Milham (Host) · 10:51
Wow.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 10:51
Uh, realizing he was, um, a heroin addict. And slowly, slowly, unfortunately, my mother started to use.
John Milham (Host) · 11:01
Wow.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 11:01
And, um, one by one, each of us kids started using. Um, so yeah, at one time or another, we've all been heroin addicts and we'd all been to prison because of our heroin addiction.
John Milham (Host) · 11:14
Yeah, that's a— like, there's so much, uh, sadness from my perspective. Is that the right response? Like, it— should I be sad because of that situation, right? You were a young person and the circumstances of the environment you found yourself in through no fault of your own really was something that you could you know, you could be, you know, you can't be blamed for sort of picking up some aspects of it. Is that— do you feel— do you, do you blame people, or do you feel like—
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 11:45
I don't blame anybody. Um, and the one thing I always want to make clear when I, I do do interviews is, you know, some people think, oh, you know, how shit of your mother to first give you that try of heroin. But, you know, people have got to understand that You know, my mother was totally naive to all this sort of thing. You know, if my mum had thought for one second that me having that one try of heroin would have the domino effect it did, there's no way in the world she would have let me try it. There's just no way.
John Milham (Host) · 12:19
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 12:20
Um, so no, I don't blame anybody.
John Milham (Host) · 12:24
That's, um, you know, that's such a sort of aspect of growth. So I can say, wow, that's a huge job. But of course, it's 17 years of like dark days and struggle in between learning that lesson and so on. Is that an aspect of your story that, you know, it was about, you know, because you've gone into jail at 20, you didn't— you were then in Bangkok jail at 29. So you you've been in the lifestyle for a long time, right? So how hard is it to get out? You know, like those lessons that you now forgive and understand and connect, you know, where, where did you pick them up?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 13:06
Like, um, look, the thing is, and the thing I, I always tell people, um, an addict is not going to— an addict is not going to stop using drugs until they 110% want to stop using drugs. Yeah, if there's not that full-on desire to stop, you're not going to.
John Milham (Host) · 13:27
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 13:27
And for me, I didn't want to stop. I went to rehab a couple of times, but I did that because my parents wanted me to do that. Yeah, I wasn't doing that for me, so that was never going to work. Um, you know, the first time I got out of jail, I was using, using again. I didn't want to stop. Um, and once you start using again, you can't stop. Mm-hmm. Um, so look, thankfully for me, when I did get arrested when I was 29 in Thailand, um, you know, I went to prison and I was still using drugs in prison. Um, until 10 months later, I woke up one day and, you know, I describe it as having that light bulb moment.
John Milham (Host) · 14:13
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 14:14
I woke up, I was sitting on the filthy ground., and I was just looking around at the scene that was going on, going on around me, and I just had that clarity in that moment of, look where you are. Wow. Look what you've done to yourself. Look, look where your life is now. Like, you've totally fucked your life. And yeah, look, it was in that moment that I made the decision to never ever use drugs ever again, and I've kept that to this day. Um, look, I think it was just a lot of years of, you know, being in prison. Um, you know, having that drug have complete hold over me. Um, missing out on so much of life because I was in prison for so long. You know, as you get older, I think you start thinking about, you know, different aspects of life. And as you mature, I guess you You know, that comes with it too.
John Milham (Host) · 15:11
You, you would've, um, had a lot of people around you, you know, that lifestyle. Um, you know, there are people that come together for, for, you know, the purposes of helping each other in those moments up to a point. Um, but you, you know, we know that it's a dangerous choice, right? So you would have a, a long list of people that you've, you know, found and lost over the years. Did that— oh, sorry. Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 15:40
Oh no, yeah, good point that you bring up. Um, when I was 21, obviously I was in prison here in Western Australia. Um, my younger sister was in prison at that time with me as well, and, um, I got a phone call saying that my mother had had a heroin overdose and died. So You know, even going to her funeral handcuffed to a prison officer. Wow. That wasn't even enough for me to be like, wow, what am I doing?
John Milham (Host) · 16:12
That's crazy. That— well, it's not crazy. It's human, but it's, it's hard to, to understand the why of it all, isn't it?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 16:20
Look, you know, a lot of people who are addicts, whether it be alcohol or drugs or whatever it is, there's a lot, there's a lot of trauma. That people have gone through in their life.
John Milham (Host) · 16:31
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 16:31
Um, you know, people don't wake up one day and say, you know what, I'm going to get on heroin today and then get arrested and go to jail.
John Milham (Host) · 16:41
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 16:42
That, you know, that's something that doesn't happen.
John Milham (Host) · 16:44
Yeah, yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 16:45
It's not the plan. You know, addicts are trying to mask some sort of pain. Um, yeah, look, that, that's the best way I can describe it. People use for a reason. People drink for a reason.
John Milham (Host) · 17:00
Yeah. And it, you know, and it's not the drug, it's the, you know, the, it's what, uh, the place the drug takes you, like, to get away from things.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 17:08
100%. Um, yeah, yeah, but very, very true, you know. Um, unfortunately for me, you know, heroin, that first try of heroin, that was the beginning of the end for me.
John Milham (Host) · 17:22
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 17:22
Um, You know, obviously if I had my life to do over again, I would never ever touch a drug, like never, nothing. But you know, in hindsight, I didn't know what would happen. I was naive as well.
John Milham (Host) · 17:34
Yeah, my mother used to warn me, you know, not that it did much good, but she would say, oh, you know, you have an addictive personality, she would say. Do you think there's such thing from your experience?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 17:52
I do, yeah. Yeah, I do. I believe that. Yeah. I'm a, um, you know, in my addiction I was always an all-or-nothing kind of person, and that's sort of true in every aspect of my life. I go all— I go all in very hard, um, or nothing.
John Milham (Host) · 18:12
Well, stepping out, that, you know, like you said, uh, you know, you woke, you know, sort of opened your eyes on the floor in the middle of, you know, a sort of form of hell, and you just said, that's it, right? That's a pretty— or that's a pretty all choice, right? You know?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 18:29
Yeah, for sure. And, um, a lot of people can't understand, like, how I managed to do that in that circumstance. Um, but I just had enough.
John Milham (Host) · 18:38
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 18:38
You know, I was looking at spending a large portion of my life in a Thai prison. And I think, you know, that's enough to shock somebody out of doing it, I think, you know. Um, you know, I'm so grateful that I had that moment. Um, yeah, very fortunate, because if I didn't, I'd either be dead now or doing another prison sentence. They're pretty much the two options.
John Milham (Host) · 19:05
When you're, you know, when you're, um, you know, in the in the sort of hands of that kind of addiction, right, and you bump into the law, it's not because of— are you being, um, sort of in trouble because you're— you possess the drug, you're taking the drug, or you're trying to do something to get more of it, or, you know, what, what, what's the kind of choices you're forced to make around that stuff?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 19:31
Oh, look, it's different for everybody. Um, I mean whether you're just an addict, you're still having to go out and buy heroin off somebody. Yeah. So it sort of doesn't matter what you do.
John Milham (Host) · 19:44
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 19:45
You're doing something you shouldn't be doing.
John Milham (Host) · 19:46
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so we get to— you mentioned, um, having a long, um, sentence. Uh, so you, you were— were you in Bangkok at the time?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 20:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 20:04
And so you, you picked up a 31-year sentence in a Bangkok prison, and we've all— we've seen the movie, right? Now, I mean, and, um, and we've seen, um, uh, the executions, right? So, you know, that level of, of commitment. Did you think you were safe or smarter than the, the authorities? How, how did you have the you know, forgive me, the balls to, to, to do something that was exposing you to a death sentence.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 20:36
Yeah, it's funny, you know, my husband used to say I had more front than Myers, and I've always been—
John Milham (Host) · 20:42
yeah, that's a beautiful line. My grandmother, yeah, she used to say that as well.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 20:47
So yeah, um, sorry, I forgot the question, I've gone off track.
John Milham (Host) · 20:53
Yeah, so you've chosen, um, you know, to take on a task, to take on the authorities who have a death, a death sentence up their sleeve.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 21:02
Yeah, well, this is the thing as well, you know, um, your, you know, drugs have sort of dulled your senses, so to speak. Um, you sort of feel like it's not going to happen to me. Yeah, because, you know, if I had a thought, you know, I was going to get arrested and go to jail, then I probably would have left the country. Yeah, but you, you're not thinking rationally. Yeah, you know, you're still doing what you're doing and that sort of becomes your normal.
John Milham (Host) · 21:31
Well, were you in Bangkok? Sorry, carry on. No, carry on.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 21:36
No, you take the risk because you're an addict.
John Milham (Host) · 21:39
Yeah. Were you in Bangkok to— because of drugs? Was that the what got you there? No.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 21:45
So my husband was living over there at the time. He was on the run from, um, Western Australia. So when I finished my sentence I flew over there to be with him. Right. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 21:56
How'd you meet your husband? Is that like, was that around the, the, the process or was that just like, you know, dating apps or, you know, did you catch him in a coffee shop?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 22:06
No. So we met when I was 16. Um, he was a friend of my, one of my brothers. So that's how I met him. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 22:14
A childhood romance.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 22:16
Yeah. He was, um, definitely my soulmate. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 22:20
Wow.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 22:20
Are you—
John Milham (Host) · 22:21
did you get through together?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 22:23
Like, yeah, it's, um, it's really funny because, you know, in his lifetime he went to prison a couple of times. Um, I did as well. So we'd still stay in contact. We used to sometimes have inter-prison visits. Um, so whenever either one of us got out of prison, we'd come back together again. So, you know, we were together since I was 16 and he unfortunately passed away 2 and a half years ago from cancer.
John Milham (Host) · 22:53
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 22:55
Yeah, thanks. So, you know, um, definitely the love of my life. Yeah. And yeah, we got through some pretty tough situations together. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 23:06
From 16, you, you would've, you would've grown up together. Yeah, pretty much facing, you know, coming to a sort of almost like a joint decision about how you were going to face these life challenges for the, you know, for the first time and subsequently. Um, did that help? Like, what's that, having someone who, you know, you'd almost like agreed that this was how we want to go so you could, you know?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 23:31
Oh, 100%. Um, I mean, we just always got on with life and whatever direction that took, it took us, and we just, you know, got through the hard bits the best way we, we could.
John Milham (Host) · 23:42
Yeah, it's a long time together. Uh, when he passed away, did you feel the, the pressure of that grief? Um, you know, was that something that either affirmed your position now, or was it a, a, uh, was it something you had to fight off?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 24:02
What's that, to start using again?
John Milham (Host) · 24:04
Oh, and, you know, just, you know, go back, you know, you're so positive about work and, you know, the mission to help other people and so on. Uh, often grief can be really transforming.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 24:16
Yeah. Um, I did an interview with, um, Waleed from The Project. Wow. And when they were talking about this on, on the show, you know, on the panel, It was Steve Price who said, wow, you know, she's just lost her husband. I can't believe she didn't go back to using. Yeah. And Waleed said, no, she's definitely not. Like, it's evident. And that never even crossed my mind, not even once. That's just not in my thought process anymore. Um, hasn't been for a very long time. Um, yeah, look, um, I've done too much jail. I've missed out on so much life. Um, you know, this is a different chapter in my life now. That was the past, this is the future. And mate, really, I'm living my best life. I'm so happy doing what I do. Um, I have amazing friends, I have amazing family. Um, yeah, life's really good.
John Milham (Host) · 25:14
Yeah, that, you know, that, that aspect of, um, you know, me being an addictive personality You know, you can transform. Do you, like, through your journey, you are obviously not just doing things differently. Do you feel like you are a different person?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 25:34
Yes and no, right? Um, look, I'm still the same person I always was, but you know, the difference is, is that I'm really using my lived experience in a really positive way, helping the people that need help and support. Yeah. Yeah, I, I guess that's the, the best way I can describe it.
John Milham (Host) · 25:59
Yeah. I recently spoke to a, a bloke in Perth who is help— is working with school kids and homeless and men on the streets and so on. And in jail in the same way you are. He was also in jail for an accident that tragically took the life of another person, right? And he described his organization is What4, and he described as that purpose was really important to him getting through the consequences of being in jail, right? And making a choice to do something else that's much more you know, much more kind of virtuous, if you will, right? Is that that purpose? Is that what's driving you? You know, like a sense of, I have a— I now have a purpose to either improve things or to use my experience positively or to make amends even, you know?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 27:01
Oh, look, yeah, all those aspects are true. Um, yeah, definitely. Um, I really, well, this year I'll try very hard to, you know, get my book into every prison.
John Milham (Host) · 27:17
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 27:18
Get my book into every rehab.
John Milham (Host) · 27:20
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 27:21
Um, get my book into high schools. Um, I really feel that the life I've lived has been for this reason.
John Milham (Host) · 27:29
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 27:29
To be able to give back in a really positive way. Yeah. Um, because yeah, like I was a fuck-up, you know, I was. Luckily I came through that. Yeah, I'm just in a really good place in life to be able to really make an impact on people.
John Milham (Host) · 27:51
That's amazing. I love to, you know, like the joy you share with, you know, obvious joy you share for where you are now and your, and the work you're doing.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 28:03
I feel it, it makes people understand that it's possible. Yeah, absolutely. You know?
John Milham (Host) · 28:08
Yeah. Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 28:09
People need to have that hope and, you know, a, a lot of people have said to me, wow, like, thanks for sharing because now that we know you did it. Yeah. Maybe we can too. Oh yeah. And yeah, that, that's everything, you know, being able to give that to somebody. That's just, it's huge.
John Milham (Host) · 28:27
It's one of those things, if you can't see a future, yeah, you can't aim for it, you can't take steps towards it. So you are helping them see their future, which can be more like yours than the one they fear or, you know, just hear about.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 28:41
Yeah. Beautiful. 100%. And even a few of my clients have said to me, you know, like, when we get outta jail, we would love to like get into the sort of work you are doing. And I say to them, well, strive for that because you would be amazing because of your lived experience. Um, yeah, it's really turning around.
John Milham (Host) · 29:01
There's so much stigma around, you know, the, you know, somebody who has, has, you know, paid their, um, their due and come out supposedly free and clear. And yet you're, you know, you see many examples of people still being punished even though that punishment is supposed to be over. Was that your experience?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 29:27
Um, in, in a few ways it was. Um, you know, I say to people, you know, young people, listen to your parents when they tell you that if you break the law, that will follow you for the rest of your life. I wish I had have listened, um, because that statement is so true. Um, you know Like me, for example, you know, I got out of prison, um, in 2012. I went to see my parole officer, my parole officer that day, and he more or less said to me, you won't last long. So yeah, um, so that's the sort of treatment people get, you know. People think, oh, you know, you've been a druggie, you've been locked up, and or maybe, you know, your family are druggies as well, that you've got no chance. Well, I was that proof. I did it.
John Milham (Host) · 30:21
Yeah, yeah. And leading the way, providing the example. You're— when you're talking to those men who, uh, are just, you know, close to going back out, it must be scary. Is that part of that? How am I going to get a job? How am I going to look after my family? Will, will they accept me? Will I see my kids? You know, all of those kind of things. How, how do you do— I— do you encourage them and tell them it's going to be okay? Or, you know, is it something more realistic? Let's work out how, you know, how we're going to hold with the inevitable sort of rejection that you might face.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 31:01
Um, you know, my clients vary. Um, you know, I've got a lot of clients that are very confident people very independent people. Then you've got clients that don't have much confidence. They may need more support. And the good thing is that I can be support for them for up to a year.
John Milham (Host) · 31:22
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 31:22
When they're released.
John Milham (Host) · 31:23
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 31:24
Some people need me, some people don't. Some people get out and go straight back into a job, accommodation. That's great. But other clients have nowhere to go. They don't have a home.
John Milham (Host) · 31:37
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 31:37
They don't have any family. There's no support for them from anyone but us. Yeah. So it's really a mixed bag. I think our biggest hurdle is having accommodation for people. Yeah. I've had many clients that I've picked up on their release day because they've had nobody else to pick them up. Wow. And drop them off somewhere because there's, there's nowhere to house these people.
John Milham (Host) · 32:05
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 32:05
And they don't have anyone to stay with. That's a really heartbreaking thing. Yeah. You know, which, and yeah, so I, I've had clients that have got out, broken the law just to go back inside because they've got 3 meals a day and a roof over their head. Now that is crazy, but that's where it's at.
John Milham (Host) · 32:25
You can imagine, you could easily imagine on, you know, the height of summer or the depth of winter, you know, on the streets or in a park or a shelter, you know, the food's dodgy, the, you know, you're out exposed, cold or hot or whatever. You could easily imagine, oh, jail doesn't seem so bad, you know, when that's there.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 32:46
Yeah, 100%. You know, I picked up a client a few weeks ago and he didn't have accommodation. There was no way to get any accommodation. And he said, don't worry, Holly, it's all good, it's summer, I'll sleep on the beach. That to me was heartbreaking.
John Milham (Host) · 33:00
Yeah. Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 33:02
But that was the option, the only option for him. Yeah. So yeah, you know, it's, it's great what I do and I love it, but it's also very sad what I do as well because sometimes there is no help.
John Milham (Host) · 33:16
Yeah. You know, absolutely amazing. If, if I was to say, look, I'm gonna give you an open safe, right? You, Holly, what, what are the things you could do to improve the situation on the ground, right? Just, you know, in a, in, on a personal level, what could you do that would immediately make a difference?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 33:43
The one thing this question always comes back to is accommodation. Yeah, you know, yeah, you know, seeing people living on the street, it breaks my heart.
John Milham (Host) · 33:52
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 33:54
And there's just not enough accommodation here, you know. It's really bad here. Yeah, there's so many homeless people, you know, so many good organizations trying to help, but there's not enough resources, unfortunately.
John Milham (Host) · 34:10
People always think you're like, um, offer, uh, you know, like they say, oh, you know, we can, you know, what about a shelter or whatever, you know. You could buy, you know, if I— if you had an open safe, you could buy a giant shed, one of the, you know, big, you know, farm or industry warehouse or something and put lots of beds in it. But that's not really what you're talking about, is it? It's like, you know, these guys need to build a home or they need to build a base. Is that fair?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 34:39
Look, pretty much what you described, that would be amazing because at least it's somewhere for now.
John Milham (Host) · 34:45
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 34:46
But, you know, when accommodation does come up, unfortunately it's always for a very short time. Yeah. So once that time's over, see you later. Well, then where are people meant to go? You know, there's, there's no sort of transition from one place into another. And, you know, a lot of homeless people want to work, but how can you get a job when you're living on the street?
John Milham (Host) · 35:07
No.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 35:08
Like, you're living a daily quest for survival just to get by. Um, you know, there are many clients, um, you know, from a previous job I had. These women were homeless and they would take methamphetamine to stay awake at night because they'd very often get raped because it was dangerous. Yeah, wow, very, very dangerous, you know. And that's so sad. Yeah, terrible, you know. But that, unfortunately, that's a reality. Yeah, that's it.
John Milham (Host) · 35:44
If— can I— is it all right if I ask you about the process of being in jail? You know, say, like, after Midnight Express, Bangkok Prison fills me full of dread, right? So when you were, you know, in the— when you were in the court and they handed down a 31-year sentence, what, what went through your head?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 36:08
Um, when I got sentenced, I'd already been in the prison for 3 and a half years. So when I heard that sentence, I was incredibly happy. Um, the reason why I was happy was, um, Thailand and Australia had a transfer treaty.
John Milham (Host) · 36:24
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 36:24
So if you were given a life sentence, you had to serve 8 years before you could make the application to transfer home. But if you had a numbered sentence, which I did, 31 years, I could apply to go home after 4 years. Wow. So looking at it that way, 6 months. I had 6 months to go before I could apply to go home.
John Milham (Host) · 36:44
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 36:45
So unfortunately for me, it didn't work out like that. Um, I was, yeah, there for a lot longer than I should have been, but that's just the way, you know, the chips fell for me.
John Milham (Host) · 36:57
So 7 years in, uh, a Bangkok prison it ended up being, right? And, and you, in, you learned Thai, you learned the customs, you created, you know, really powerful relationships with, with locals and other, other prisoners. Was that like, uh, you coping, or was that something that you, you know, didn't expect but was like a positive aspect of it?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 37:24
Um, no. So what I did very quickly was assess my situation I found out who was who. So in other words, I went about getting all the information I could in the situation I'm in, and I started aligning myself with people that could help me, that could help me have the best out of this jail experience. Meaning, you know, I paid somebody to wash and dry my clothes. So the people I paid had their own area where they could hang their laundry., it wouldn't get stolen. Yeah. Uh, I paid somebody for water if I needed extra water. So for me it was aligning myself with the people that could make my life that little bit easier.
John Milham (Host) · 38:17
That, that seems a very sophisticated situation. Was that, you know, you, was that because of your experiences? Like you, you'd been in jail far too often, too many times to, to, you know, I guess that prepared you for a very, you know, to make the best of a rough situation.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 38:37
That's sort of been my motto ever since I was a kid. I've always been that way. I'm a very deep thinker and I'm very, I guess, strategic. Yeah. So yeah, I think having those traits definitely, yeah, worked out well for me in some ways.
John Milham (Host) · 38:54
That life, right, that is a real powerhouse educational opportunity, right? Strategy, you know, sort of negotiation skills, you know, business acumen, psychology, right? You know, did you know you were learning?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 39:13
So for the first few months, I had absolutely no intention of learning Thai. Didn't, wasn't interested in at all. Um, but after a few months, I got really sick of asking people to translate for me. Um, you know, at that time I didn't know how long I would be there, but I knew it was going to be probably 20+ years. Yeah, well, so yeah, so I thought, well, you know what, you're an independent woman, you don't like asking people for help, so you're going to have to learn. And I did. Um, I understood a lot more than what I could speak for quite a long time. Um, but as time went on, yeah, I could speak more. And yeah, did—
John Milham (Host) · 39:56
when you, um, when you hear a sentence like that, do you stop dreaming of, you know, do you stop thinking about your future?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 40:07
Um, yeah, because you don't have one. Yeah, there is no future. Um, And until I had made an application to go home and I knew that that was a possibility, then I could start thinking a bit more about the future, but not a lot because, you know, I was going home to another jail.
John Milham (Host) · 40:29
Yeah, yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 40:30
So yeah, I didn't really have a future for a long time.
John Milham (Host) · 40:34
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 40:34
But when I did get back to the Australian prison, that's when I started, um, you know, I went to the education center, I started studying certain things because I knew that one day in my future I would be doing what I'm doing now.
John Milham (Host) · 40:48
Wow.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 40:48
That's always been my goal.
John Milham (Host) · 40:50
Yeah. And of course, um, you know, getting, you know, you, you woke up that day, uh, and, and put aside your addiction. Um, where, you know, what changed when you did that? Because that, that, that, as you pointed out, that blows my mind, right? Did you start, you know, did you see life differently? Did you feel differently? Did you, you know, what, what changed?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 41:19
Um, I suppose I became a bit more, you know, clear-headed, I guess. Um, you know, no substances, you know, affecting my mood or my thinking. Yeah. Um, yeah, I guess I did feel better because, you know, you're not constantly thinking of getting that drug or having that drug, you know, that's a thought process that's gone now. Whereas when you are addicted, that's all you think about.
John Milham (Host) · 41:48
Yeah. What was it like for your husband? You know, like, he, like, it must have been terrifying to, to think you were potentially locked up for a long time.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 41:59
Um, so at the time I was arrested, my husband was back in Melbourne. He'd been arrested in Melbourne.
John Milham (Host) · 42:05
Oh, that's true.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 42:06
So Yeah, I got arrested probably 2 weeks later. So yeah, he was in Melbourne and I was in Thailand.
John Milham (Host) · 42:14
Um, in some ways it's well arranged, you know. Yeah, yeah, sorry.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 42:22
Um, no, you're right.
John Milham (Host) · 42:24
I, I, I just want to— I want to think about how, um, you know, what was it like writing the book? Because like, it's, uh, you know, from what, you know, the— my interactions with it It's, you know, it's really confronting. Was it run of the mill for you?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 42:41
You know, like, you've lived it, obviously, but, um, I started writing the book the first day of my arrest. Um, it's really weird because I didn't have it in my head to write a book or anything like that at that time, but something inside me was saying, start documenting every single thing that happens to you. And that's what I did. I'm glad I did it. Yeah. Because as you know, I've written a book about the whole experience. Yeah, it— look, it was good writing the book, but there were times when I couldn't even write for maybe 2, 3 years sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, eventually got it done. Yeah. And in the process, you know, after getting out of prison, you know, I did a lot of counseling. Um, I had to because I was pretty messed up. I had really bad post-traumatic stress and depression. Um, so once I started getting help for both those issues, a lot changed again in me. Um, yeah, yeah, I definitely advocate, um, for counseling. I think it's amazing. Um, it did a lot to help me.
John Milham (Host) · 43:54
Yeah, I always think of like, you know, that people talk about the threat response, right, being fight, flight, freeze, or faint. And yet, you know, I can't imagine something like, you know, being more conducive to being threatened than being in a Bangkok prison. But of course, you can't do much. You can't run away. You can't just stand there and be a victim. And, you know, you— I suppose you can sort of suck up to somebody. Or you can fight. So do you— did you see yourself as a warrior? You, you obviously have fought, you know, and been independent all your life from a young age, right? So was that, was that your choice to fight, you know, mentally, or, you know?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 44:40
Oh, 100%, 100%. Um, my personality is one that I would never ever let anybody take advantage of me. Um, I've always stood up for myself, um, and I'll stand up for people who are maybe— who can't stand up for themselves. Um, I don't like people to be bullied. Um, I would never let that happen to myself. So yeah, I guess you could say I was a fighter, you know. There were times I would have to fight, you know. You do what you have to do.
John Milham (Host) · 45:13
And you've chosen, uh, to bring that to— to fight in service of others now. Is that Does that, you know, is that part of— because that, you know, they're going through or facing challenges that you did. Do you identify with that? Like, I'm going to take, you know, on and on the system on these people's behalf.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 45:34
Oh, look, um, there definitely are times when I'm asked to advocate on a client's behalf, and I'm quite happy to do that. Um, I'm happy to do it because I've sat in their chair before, and I know how much what that would mean to somebody, to have somebody advocating on your behalf. So yeah, look, I'll always help somebody if I can, regardless of what it is. I'll always stand up for someone. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 46:01
So what would you like, you know, the community at large to know, right? What part of your experience and the experience of the people you help, what do we— you need to tell us?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 46:16
Yeah, this is a question I have been asked a few times, and a lot of society has the, has the thought that, oh, you're a prisoner, you've been in jail, oh, you're a drug addict, you're an alcoholic. Those things right there, people automatically think, oh, bad people, or Yeah, whatever. Look, not all people in jail are bad people. No, obviously some are and deserve to be where they are, but a large percentage aren't, aren't bad people. They've had a lot of trauma in their life. They've turned to a drug to help mask that pain they have. Look, there's so many layers. Yeah, but a lot of people don't see that. Unfortunately, um, I think people would see things a lot differently if something had happened to someone in their family who, who ended up on drugs, jail. Then people would think differently about it. But when it's not in your immediate circle, people have a different thought process. Yeah, that's what I found anyway.
John Milham (Host) · 47:28
Would it help if everyone was kinder?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 47:31
100%. Kindness doesn't cost anything. Yeah. Um, you know, a little act of kindness can mean so much to somebody. You just don't have any idea. A smile to somebody walking past them in the street, you don't know what, what they're going through in their life.
John Milham (Host) · 47:47
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 47:48
You know, it's, yeah, it's about the little things. The little things mean a lot.
John Milham (Host) · 47:55
It's, that's, um, so, so cool to hear you explain it that way. What do you think you want to do going forward? You love this job. Is it more of it? Are you going to sort of climb the ladder and be a bigger noise in the system? What's your future?
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 48:18
Look, I'm really happy with my job. I'm happy at where I am in life. My next big things, I guess, well, what I would like is what I mentioned earlier. I'm going to try and get my books into more places because I'm, I'm from Perth, I'm from here.
John Milham (Host) · 48:38
Yeah.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 48:38
You know, I'd like people in jail to be able to read this story because it would resonate with so many people. Yeah, I'd love to be doing talks in high schools, you know. Telling this story might make somebody think, oh shit, I better not do that. Yeah. Or whatever. It's, it's food for thought.
John Milham (Host) · 49:01
It is. Yeah. Fantastic. Look, and talk, talk about food. I, I feel like, uh, you've fed me well today with so much wisdom. Um, what a, what an incredible achievement you have, uh, to walk through all of those shadows and dips and challenges and come to a place where, you know, every day is something that you can, you know, you're leaving a legacy of help, of support, of love. So congratulations, and thank you so much for sharing with us so bravely and having your story out there so that people can feel connected to the hope that you offer.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 49:44
No, that's great. Thanks very much for having me on. It was, it was good.
John Milham (Host) · 49:48
Fantastic. Thanks, uh, and all the best.
Holly Deane-Johns (Guest) · 49:52
Yeah, thank you. You too.
John Milham (Host) · 50:02
Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilley for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsubiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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