Sue Spence
Sue Spence turned her own refuge with horses into a program that teaches at-risk young people to regulate their nervous systems through presence and body language.
Hear this story
Sue Spence spent her childhood asking for a white pony. She didn't get one until she was 14, but by then she'd already discovered what horses gave her that people couldn't: a space where her autism and anxiety didn't make her feel wrong. When school bullying became unbearable, her horse Lady was there. When breast cancer hit at 40, Sue's first instinct was to move to acreage and surround herself with horses during surgery and recovery. A small white pony named Mindy stood beside her on the patio while she healed, sensing what she needed without being told.
Years of work with natural horsemanship clinics taught Sue something crucial: when she dropped her racing anxiety and stood still, horses responded. The cowboys she trained with had a stillness she'd never felt. She learned to breathe, to soften her shoulders, to project calm through her body language. For the first time in her life, the anxiety that had followed her for decades began to lift. She realized her autism wasn't a flaw. It was the reason she could read horses the way they read the world: through sensitivity, vigilance, and body language. She understood them because they understood her.
When at-risk young people started appearing on her property, Sue saw what was possible. A hyperactive girl and a shut-down girl working with her ponies. A boy from the justice system who hadn't smiled in years. A trauma survivor who hadn't spoken since she was nine. Sue taught them horsemanship, but what they learned was how their own body language shaped the world around them. Four thousand young people have now come through her program across Australia and New Zealand. Her book reached Queen Elizabeth. But Sue's real measure of success is simpler: young people finding their way back to school, to work, to trust, to themselves.
“I was working with Sunny, and I'd asked him to go slower. I dropped my energy right down, had been taught to do, and I was a lot calm. I was walking really slow. I was breathing really slow. And Sunny was responding. He was calming right down. And then all of a sudden, I went, oh my gosh, I don't have anxiety right now.”
“when I was around humans, I always felt really awkward and I didn't really know how to fit in. But when I was around horses, I just felt completely like confident, happy, natural.”
“if you've gone through a really dark tunnel and something's helped you come out with some light at the end of it, it's your duty as a human being to turn around and shine that light that helped you like a little torch for other people that are in that dark space.”
The hero, today
Horses taught me I could be calm and confident with them in ways I never felt with people, and that's because we both read the world the same way, through sensitivity and body language. When I learned natural horsemanship from cowboys who had stillness, I realized my own racing anxiety could drop, and that's when I stopped needing all the pills and potions and finally felt peace. The program works because I teach young people a horse skill, like asking a pony to back up, and they see their own body language and energy reflected back, and then they go out and use that with real people in their real lives. My autism is not a barrier to this work; it's the whole reason I can do it, because I notice everything and feel everything the way horses do, and I can help other sensitive and traumatized people understand themselves through that. If you've come out of a dark tunnel and found something that helped you, your duty is to turn around and shine that light like a torch for other people still in the dark. The worst thing you can do when you're struggling is close yourself off and pretend you're fine; you have to find one safe person you trust and be raw and honest about what you're going through.
Yes. Sue Spence is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Horses taught me I could be calm and confident with them in ways I never felt with people, and that's because we both read the world the same way, through sensitivity and body language.
When I learned natural horsemanship from cowboys who had stillness, I realized my own racing anxiety could drop, and that's when I stopped needing all the pills and potions and finally felt peace.
The program works because I teach young people a horse skill, like asking a pony to back up, and they see their own body language and energy reflected back, and then they go out and use that with real people in their real lives.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 00:01
Welcome to another episode of Animals and Us, where we explore and honor the awesomeness of animals and our relationships with them. Today's guest is the remarkable Sue Spence, author and creator of the award-winning equine-assisted learning program Horses Helping Humans. From her roots in New Zealand to becoming a published author and receiving a personal endorsement from Queen Elizabeth, Sue has lived an extraordinary life, shaped partially by her autism. After surviving breast cancer, Sue turned adversity into purpose, creating a program that helps people develop emotional awareness and communication skills through the healing power of horses. Her work has helped lives across Australia and New Zealand, and her journey is one of courage, healing, and heart. Hello Sue, welcome to Animals and Us.
Sue Spence (Guest) · 01:01
Oh, thank you for having me.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 01:03
Thank you so much for joining us. So can we start from the beginning, back with it, with your childhood in New Zealand and how horses first entered your life?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 01:14
Gosh, I can't even remember a day when I wasn't obsessed with horses. And I know that my sister tells me every Christmas I'd always be going, please can I have a white pony? And year after year and I, I never had one, but I kept asking for one. So I just felt this affinity with them and started, um, Mum and Dad through me constantly, constantly nagging for having riding lessons. I started doing riding as I was really, really young, and I think they thought it might have worn off, but it just got stronger and stronger. And, um, here all these years later, yeah, my whole life just evolves around the journey I've had with, um, with horses.
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My autism is not a barrier to this work; it's the whole reason I can do it, because I notice everything and feel everything the way horses do, and I can help other sensitive and traumatized people understand themselves through that.
This conversation includes the white pony she never stopped asking for, lady teaches her what confidence feels like, why horses accept what humans don't, the first moment she saw what horses could do, breast cancer at 40 and the instinct to get horses and the quarter horse that changed everything.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 01:56
You have a special childhood horse?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 02:00
Look, I did. I, I had a couple. Um, back when I was young, there was not the diagnosis or understanding of autism. So I have autism and ADHD. So when I was around humans, I always felt really awkward and I didn't really know how to fit in. But when I was around horses, I just felt completely like confident, happy, natural. Um, so when I started my riding lessons, it was always— I had the same pony, Bracken, every single week, and I just couldn't wait to rush there every weekend. And then I got my first horse. He was called Sandy. And, uh, I just started to realize the more time I spent in the paddock, you know, with my horse and riding all around, was when I felt really at peace. And then the real big connection I had— and I've written about her in my book, um, Horses Who Heal— was Lady. And I got Lady when I was a young teenager, and she basically changed my life about how I felt about myself. Um, we ended up doing eventing and show jumping over there in the South Island in New Zealand, you know, very successfully. And I know when I would have a very bad day, and if I was bullied at school, which happened a fair bit, and I would just go down and Lady would just rush over to me and, you know, sort of pop her head on my shoulder, and I'd, um, saddle up and we'd just ride through beautiful pine forests that run along the beaches along there. And I would just completely regulate, you know, back into being calm and centered and confident again. And now I understand mindfulness, and now I understand, um, you know, nature and the power of them all mixed together. I was actually going into that forest and the beach on my horse to, um, to regulate my emotions, uh, from the overwhelm of being autistic and not coping with, um, with what I was thrown at on a daily basis. So the, the more, the more I connected with Lady and the more we started competing, and it was just— she was my girl and I was her girl. And, uh, yeah, we were, we were winning, winning shows without even sort of going in with a real competitive streak. It was just this beautiful bond that we had and that feeling of being so confident that I never had that feeling of confidence in any other area in life.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 04:38
You mentioned at the start that you found the horses were accepting of you, unlike humans. What do you think it is about horses that, that, that you've enabled you to feel so accepted?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 04:54
Well, when you start to understand horses and understand herd behavior, uh, horses, you know, when you have an alpha mare in that herd You know, it's that alpha mare is the one that sort of connects with all the horses and signals when it's time to rest or signals when it's time to run or signals when it's time to go down and drink. Because the stallion in the wild is usually running around the perimeter, you know, protecting from other stallions stealing his mares and his herd. So the alpha mare is something that's a very consistent energy and very fair. They're very fair as well. If there's bad behavior, it's dealt with. But if everything's good, there's no carry-on. So I think that when you really love horses and you're in a calm space when you're around them, they feel that. Because I always say horses are like someone with autism or someone with PTSD, you know, the hypervigilance feeling. What was that noise? Oh my gosh, do I have to run for my life? And when you're highly sensitive or you're neurodiverse or you've been through a lot of trauma in life, you tend to be hypersensitive to tones of voice, to people's body language, to people's energy. And horses are exactly the same. And I think that's why I found that affinity with them, that I felt that I could make them feel comfortable, whereas with humans they didn't understand my energy, and they— I couldn't understand the way they'd say something, but their body language was not congruent with what they were saying. So the autistic brain scrambles with that, as do horses. If you're training a horse professionally, you've got to be very congruent. You've got to be calm. You've got to be very clear. You've got to be very fair. And I think that discovering that form of communication really set me on the road. Who thought it would end up where I am today, teaching what I do? But I feel that as a child, that's why it resonated with me. It was It was the non-judgment and the fairness and yeah, the acceptance.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 07:01
Was there a moment in time in, in your earlier life when you, when you realized, when you had an epiphany and you realized the, the potential value of horses in, in healing?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 07:15
Look, absolutely. I mean, I, I recall, you know, when I was at school and there was other young people that were being bullied or had you know, had some really tough things happen to them. I'd always at a young age go, come down and meet my pony, come down and meet my horses, you know, because I wanted to share with them what, what they had given me. And yeah, that's why I still do the work that I do. It's an absolute joy to see people realize that there's, yeah, different ways to help regulate out there.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 07:46
So In, in time, as you, as you grew into being an adult, you were diagnosed with breast cancer. Can you tell us about that part of your life and, and how that, that led you to what you're doing now and shaped your life?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 08:04
That was such a shock because, um, you know, horses has been my life. I've always had horses, you know, in, in some form, whether it was, um, you know, ponies or horses. I had them in my life the whole time, but I used to, uh, I used to teach aerobics and run a fitness center, which was the perfect job for someone with ADHD because we get, you know, dance around to music. It was wonderful, it'd be really positive influence to others. Um, so it was a real shock when I was diagnosed, um, at 40 because I was so fit and so healthy, and, uh, it really sort of floored me. So The first thing I wanted to do was, was move from where we lived, um, out on, out onto some acreage so I could, I could gather horses around me. It was just a, it was just that straight away, that instinctive, I've got to get out on some land and get some horses around me whilst I go through my, um, recovery, my surgeries and my recovery. So, uh, yeah, so that's how we ended up where we're living now with, um gathering the ponies and, and the horses. And one particular pony, Mindy, um, she's the white pony I said that I was asking for since I was 3 years old. I didn't get a little white pony until I was 14. They're all different shapes and sizes and colors, but I got my little white pony. And by golly, I remember I'd sit on the, on the patio, um, and she, she was in the garden at that time. And I'd sit there drinking my tea, you know, trying to come to terms with them. I'd say, had a double mastectomy reconstruction. It was, it was a lot of surgery. And she would just stand next to me, you know, with her, with her head on my shoulder. It was just absolutely beautiful. And even when I sat on a deck chair, you know, to read a book, she'd come and poke her nose into the pages so I couldn't turn the pages. And, uh, yes, heaven forbid she even shared my cups of tea at times. That's how horse mad I was, but, and still am. But it was, it was so beautiful. Like she almost sensed it. And when I'd walk down the hall, you know, to go to the other end of the house, she'd be, she'd be clip-popping along on the patio to go to the end of the house as well. When I would go back up to the kitchen, she'd clip-pop back up and look at me through the windows. So yeah, it was really special. I feel that if it hadn't had Mindy there with me during those days, I wonder, yeah, how my recovery probably wouldn't have gone as well or quick as it did.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 10:35
So you moved to Queensland, Australia, and you're surrounded by horses. What started the, the, the development of your program? And can you tell us about— tell us about—
Sue Spence (Guest) · 10:47
oh wow, well, this, this was quite by accident. And, um, when I look back, I just— I can't believe how it all ended up, you know, serendipity and, and how it all evolved. So I had always, um, done show jumping and eventing, you know, growing up. And even, even here I had a couple of ex-racehorses that, um, I was doing some show jumping on. And, uh, over the years, and then I got my ponies when we moved out into the, into the acreage here. And then I ended up, um, with my horse Sunny, my beautiful quarter horse. Unfortunately he passed away 2 years ago, but I had him for 23 years. But Back in that day, he was a Quarter Horse. Now, I was— I'd always had thoroughbreds, and I'm like, a Quarter Horse? Oh my gosh. I went and had a look at him, and I thought, he's not really my type. He's shorter, and he's got short legs, because you have a type. It's like, you know, humans, just like horses. I like my big, big thoroughbreds. But anyway, something kept drawing me to him, so I ended up, you know, ended up with Sunny. And by golly, that horse changed my life. So because he was a Quarter Horse, I started to get drawn towards natural horsemanship because I saw a demonstration of it in Brisbane one day, and I was absolutely blown away with all these cowboys that had their horses following them with no halters on, and they were circling them, and, and the horses were just fixed on them the whole time. And I was just fascinated with the energy of the professional cowboys, the horsemen, the actual real horsemen that were training these horses. Because they had a stillness about them that I'd actually never seen before. And growing up with autism and ADHD, chronic anxiety has been a part of my life, was for, you know, a very long time. And I could never sort of be still or feel calm, but I'd look at these cowboys and whatever they've got, I want it, because it's obviously affecting the relationship with their horse. So I started doing natural horsemanship clinics with my horse Sunny. We'd go off for, you know, up to a week, and what I learned from those horsemen was life-changing. So when I started attending the horsemanship clinics and I noticed the way everyone walked a lot slower than me, they all talked a lot slower than me, and everyone's horses were really calm and I was always go, go, go, go, go, go. And I remember I was working with Sunny one day and I couldn't get him to walk. He was jig-jogging all around. And the horseman I was working with at the time, he came over to me and he goes, your problem's not your horse, you've got too much energy going on inside of you. And I'm like, what do you mean? I'm really calm. I am really calm. This is really, really calm for me. So of course I wasn't calm at all. And just watching him work work with the horses, I started to mirror that and the way he was breathing and the way he was standing. And unbeknown to me back then was when you stand in what we call a super stance, power pose, with your feet shoulder-width apart, breathe out completely and relax your belly and relax your shoulders so you just look uber, uber cool and confident and calm, it actually is reducing your cortisol by 23%. They've done all the tests on this, you know, nowadays they do all the scientific scientific studies on it. So I was starting to feel calm, and I remember this particular day, and I was working with Sunny, and I'd asked him to go slower. I dropped my energy right down, had been taught to do, and I was a lot calm. I was walking really slow. I was breathing really slow. And Sunny was responding. He was calming right down. And then all of a sudden, I went, oh my gosh, I don't have anxiety right now. So I used to have anxiety all the time. I'm telling you, 24 hours a day. I was on Chinese herbs that I was boiling up. I was having acupuncture. I was having all sorts of different, you know, naturopath pills and potions and psychotherapy and all this, and nothing. Indian shamans shaking rattles over— I'm telling you, I did— I tried everything and nothing was helping me with my anxiety until I started working in horsemanship with professional horsemen and horsewomen. So I came back from that particular clinic and I was, you know, training Sunny every day because I really wanted to get to the level where these guys were with their horses. So, you know, I was out with them every single day till it got dark. And the connection was getting stronger and stronger, but I was becoming calmer and calmer. And I thought, oh my God, I've got to share this with people. So I had a couple of ladies I knew in the area and their daughters, they were struggling. One of them was, um, was at risk of disengaging from school. Her behavior was, was just so bad. She couldn't— she, she was disrupting everyone and disruptive behavior. And the other one had been through trauma, was completely shut down, didn't speak, had no confidence, and she wasn't wanting to go to school at all. So I started working with them, and one had Sunny and one was working with, with Mindy. We were down at the park, and the mini me, I call her, she's jumping all around, and she couldn't get— she couldn't get my pony to calm down. And I said— and then the other one couldn't get Sunny listen to her because she wasn't confident enough, her body language. And he was just like ignoring her because there was nothing important to listen to, obviously, because horses are the same with us with body language. And I said, okay girls, just stop for a second. And I said to the mini me, I call the hyper one, I said, you know when you get a can of Coke and you shake it up heaps and then you pull the ring thing and it goes, you got way too much fizz going on. I said, so, and then I said to the other one, and I said, Sunny's not listening to you. Because you're like flat lemonade. It's like, you know, instead of, okay, I'd like you to back up, or I'd like you to circle me, it's like, oh, Steve sort of want to back up or circle. So what's he going to choose to do? Nothing, you know. So I said, so what we do, we sort of got to swap the bubbles here. I said, so my fizzy can of Coke needs to be more flat lemonade, and my flat lemonade person needs to have more fizzy cans of Coke bubbles. Anyway, the girls got it immediately, right? They understood it. And by golly, their horsemanship, you know, in those lessons just changed what they were doing with the horses was fantastic. And a few weeks later, we get these reports coming back from the teachers going, uh, the parents going, the teachers want to know what's been happening with the girls because, um, you know, one of them's now sitting quieter in the classroom and not disrupting anyone, and the other one's now gained more confidence and standing up speaking when she's asked to present something. And, uh, so I went, oh, well, cool, they've just been doing, you know, the lessons with me. So then I did a women's workshop one day on boundaries and self-esteem. And at the last minute, I thought I'd take Sunny with me so I could show all the women there. We had about 40 of them. And, um, and I wanted to show them what no looked like, because no's not a word. It's the way your body language projects self-respect. So I remember there was about 40 women around this little arena, and I stood in front of Sunny. And when I stand like Wonder Woman— I call it Wonder Woman on the bottom, really confident and calm, but very relaxed on top— my Body language is open and confident. And I ask him to back up simply by wiggling my finger, right? This is high-level horsemanship. So he's just start backing up. He just starts backing up, but, you know, nodding his head, backing up. And I turned around to the woman and I held the same body language I was asking him to back up with. And I turned around and I said to the woman, this is what no looks like. It's not just a word, it's a projection of self-respect and boundaries. It's all in your body language, right? This is what I teach in the program I run. So anyway, there's a lot of women start to cry going, oh my God, that's so powerful. I realized that I don't— I, I stand in, you know, with all like almost like apologizing for saying no. So disrespectful people will take advantage of that, right? So, um, but unbeknownst to me, there was, there was a lady from a huge youth and family service, and she came up to me, then she was, oh my God, this would be so powerful for our at-risk kids. Will you do a workshop for all my youth workers? They're in every high school across, you know, the Gold Coast. And I Oh, if you want me to. Within 2 weeks, she had about 45 youth workers all crammed into my little arena here at home, and they were blown away. And that was the day they started bringing all the at-risk young people, and it never stopped. And since I started doing that at that level, 4,000 young people have been through on my little tiny property here. It's like a little postage stamp. They expect a huge place, I think, but It just shows you that was the, the birth of Horses Helping Humans. Horses Helping Humans. And then through that period of time, um, the College of Applied Psychology, they, they got behind the program and they, they helped me, um, with prior learning, um, get my diploma in child and youth intervention, which, which just blew me away that, that even happened. And then, um, yeah, 3 Women in Business Awards. Community Hero Awards. It just kept coming, and then all the media was coming, and I'm like, what's going on? Who are you? Who are you? Where are you ringing from? Oh, we want to come and do a story on you for TV. And I'm like, well, I'm pretty busy with all the kids today. Can you book another time? Like, I had no idea. I was just out there working with all these young people with the ponies, and, um, it just, it just skyrocketed from there. And then it's funny how you meet people at the right time sometimes. I was doing some corporate workshops at a health retreat, and there was a gentleman there, and he was a very, very well-known businessman. And he said, look, that workshop was fantastic. He goes, look, I'm just wondering, you know, who protects your IP? And I remember thinking, ip, I wonder what that is. I had no idea. I wasn't, you know, I'm just doing my thing. Ip, what IP? What on earth is that? Well, he got back to Melbourne and he rang me and he said, I really don't think you understood the importance of what I was trying to tell you. Who protects your intellectual property? Because I'm telling you, it's gold. It's called Which Horse or Pony Are You? It's a breakdown of the four temperaments. And I teach people what their personality type is, but what their body language does when they are, you know, in times of stress. What's their conditioned response? Does their body language look dominating? Does it look timid? Does it look defensive? Or does it look manic? You know, and this is what we work with. He goes, This is gold. He goes, I'm going to hang up now and you're going to find yourself an intellectual property lawyer because I'm ringing you back in an hour so you can tell me you've got one. So I did. I was like, oh gosh, I better do this because homework, he's going to ring me back. And that's how I got an intellectual property lawyer and it was all done. The program became licensed so I could teach other people. And then someone else came along to assist me in putting all of my outcomes and my standards into place. So we became a certified trademark, and we're the only certified trademark for Equine Assisted Learning. So it's been, it's been pretty crazy because I never, I never sat down and went, right, I'm going to design a program that's going to be licensed and intellectual property protected and copyrighted and trademarked. I'm just like, oh, is that what you reckon I need to do? Well, I better do it then. And lo and behold, Well, I suppose the outcomes speak for themselves.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 22:20
Yeah.
Sue Spence (Guest) · 22:21
So do you think—
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 22:23
to what extent do you think your autism contributed to your talent in, in this field?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 22:31
I believe 100% because with autism we feel everything. And I often, I often say to people, you know the movie Avatar? And everything's in hyper, you know, brightness and high. That's what it's like looking through the eyes when you have autism. And there is a brilliant video, a young boy from, um, from the UK had help with doing some videos of what it's like, um, looking through the eyes of autism. And if you Google, um, autism simulation walking through a shopping center, that will come up. And he's walking through a shopping center and the lights are glaringly bright and every single noise and a chair scraping. And I used to think every everybody heard and saw like that. So I used to think, what's wrong with me? Like, look, they're all walking around in a shopping center all calm. They don't even seem to be hearing all this stuff, because I didn't know that that's how we saw the world. And people that are neurotypical don't pick up on all that hypersensitivity. So when I talk to somebody, I just notice everything. I can feel their energy. I can sort of feel their, their energy, which is their intent behind their words, their body language. The slightest little shift, I'll start to feel really uncomfortable. That's why I related to the horses being in fight or flight, because I'm thinking, oh my God, they're like being an autistic person as well. Like, something not quite right about that person. Oh no, that tone of voice is freaking me out. Oh, that body language is making me feel uncomfortable. So being able to be an advocate and a voice for younger people on the spectrum, and even those that have been through trauma and end up being highly sensitive to, you know, noises and sounds and tones and things. Um, it was a real blessing to be able to help them, and they'd say, oh my God, you actually get it. And I go, yeah, but these are the things that I use to cope, and these are the things I'm going to teach you to help to regulate. But most important of all, I need the people you live with, the people you work with. I need your partners, whoever it is that's in your inner circle. I need them here so I can educate them on how to communicate to you with always emotional safety, awareness around emotional safety, so you don't feel triggered. Um, so that they live in a safe environment, they're surrounded by safety. Yeah, and that's why all the universities then came on board, because they were hearing about what I was doing. And, you know, um, I was— I've got, um, yeah, liaisons with different universities now. We, we take on third-year psychology students to do placement here because they don't learn this at the psychology colleges. And I remember one of them said to me, oh my gosh, she goes, like I've studied this for 3 years, but, but I didn't know that that social anxiety ASD young girl, like, she won't even speak to me. What do I do? And I said, oh, just watch me. And by the end of the session, you know, we got chitty chatty. And I said, it's the way I— it's the way I stand, it's the way I lean on the fence, it's the tone of my voice. So as you, you know, mature and go into having your own psychology business, it's how you're going to sit, even the way you sit in the chair and talk to clients, how to make them feel comfortable. And, um, yeah, it's, it's been wonderful watching people starting to learn how to understand the differences in one another.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 26:09
Fascinating. So most people have, have a, a small idea about what Equine Assisted Learning is. Can you just tell us a bit more about what it is and, and how it works?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 26:23
Well, how, um, with the Horses Helping Humans, with Equine Assisted Learning, this program is based on professional horsemanship. So we're basically, you know, especially the young people, they, they think they're just coming to see a great horse trainer or something. They don't know that we know that there's issues. Their youth worker brings them. Um, but so we're teaching the basis of, of what we call, you know, professional natural horsemanship. So we're teaching them how we train a horse to back up, circle, um, pop it over a jump, back it through an L-shape. And everything we're teaching while we're doing that, when we're teaching a horse how to back up, we're showing them how we teach a horse how to back up because they have to learn these skills to do an agility show at the end of the course so they will get a trophy, right? I said, we've got to get your horse to back up for you now. The way you stand, your body language, to a full-on extrovert, I might be going, whoa, it's like you're telling him to back up and he's going to put his head up and he's going to have a really tight neck soon with his ears back, because he's going to think you're having a go at him. I said, so I need you to drop your energy right down and soften your shoulders. Now ask your horse to back up. Now you're suggesting. So, so when we get the horse to back up, they go, well, that worked, don't it? Then they understand themselves. Oh, that's probably why I get in fights a lot, because people think I'm having a go at them. And I go, you're off. Someone's thinking they're going to have a go at you. What do you do? Like, you fire up as well. You got to do the opposite, mate. You got to drop your energy down. You got to diffuse it like we just We got that horse to drop his head and calm down and step away from you. Um, you know, it might be, you know, the horse isn't listening to me. Well, your body language is really closed off, so I actually need you to even walk with longer, more confident steps because your little short steps are making that horse think there's something wrong, must be something about to happen. You know, when someone walks up to you with like little energy, and so you got it, long slow steps. We're going to ask that horse again. So we're talking about how we can then transfer those into a life skill, you know, that they're going to practice the next week. So when you start to get anxious, you're going to imagine you've got your horse in front of you and how you had to calm your horse down, or how you got your horse to back through that L-shape. You had to be calm, you had to be focused. And they might come back the next week and go, oh, first time I've been into a shopping center for months, or I actually got on the bus and went to some work experience, or Oh, Miss Ness, I haven't been in a fight for weeks. You know, it's all these little, all these little things. So equine-assisted learning is more practical, um, tasks that we teach to build confidence and awareness, whereas equine therapy is more about counseling. Okay, so we're not counselors, we're actually almost life coaches really, because we're assisting youth workers, caseworkers, and such. And to how better understand their client, or, um, how to encourage what we've taught them on that session. I want you to encourage that all week. Every time they start to get really uptight, just tell them to breathe out and change their body language to how Sue showed you how to stand. Flop your belly. That actually engages the vagus nerve and helps turn fight or flight down. Um, they don't need to know all that, but the youth workers and the counselors do. Um, but yeah, so that's what equine-assisted learning learning is. Yeah, but we— that's why I have a certified trademark, because I'm really passionate about, um, having really professional horsemanship skills around in that, in that area. And, uh, that's all part of the certified trademark. Yeah, fascinating.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 29:52
You being a very kind and compassionate person that I know you are, I imagine that the welfare of the horses that you use is high priority. Can you tell us about how you manage the welfare of the horses in your program?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 30:09
Oh my gosh, they've always been absolutely number one. And, um, I always have to laugh because Mindy's now 34, which is nearly 100 in human years, I think. And, um, none of them have had a bad day. If any of them at any stage had looked that they were uncomfortable or they, or they didn't want to participate participate on any given day, I would never have them in the arena. But, um, because I've had horses all my life, I can read them really, really well. And we don't do a lot in the program. It's a lot of what we talk about and what we demonstrate. So with us, you know, the horses and ponies, you know, everyone that works with them is taught how to breathe before they even approach their pony. So at no time is any of our ponies at risk of someone running up to them or holding their breath or patting them too hard. It's like, no, we've got to walk in there like a Tai Chi master, so your horse and pony feels comfortable. When you brush them, you got to breathe out every stroke of the brush because that's actually helping them to stay regulated, but it also makes the ponies calm. And then, you know, the, the ponies really only have to, you know, they back up a few steps, and then we teach the young people that's pressure on. You've asked them to back up. Now, in horsemanship, you take all the pressure off when they've done what you ask. So you might ask them to back up. They've backed up 4 steps. Now we're going to breathe out Relax and just do nothing. So that pony knows that that's all you wanted them to do. You haven't kept the pressure on, you know. And then you can go up and give them a wee pat again. So yeah, the ponies actually love it. They, they come in and they've, over the years, because I've been here for, you know, 20 years doing this now, they've all, all got their designated spots there in the arena. They're all, they all tied up, you know, away from each other for safety. Um, and they actually go to their spots. And, uh, yeah, if, if, um, a young person doesn't turn up, you know, on a particular session, you know, they don't nick off over to their— where their stables are. They actually hang around in the arena, or they lean over the fence and try and, you know, get some attention off the people in the grandstand. And they're very part of, of me. So, and when I train people to do this program as well, you know, um, all their horses are certified. We see videos of them, and we make sure that it's the right fit, you know, because really all horses like to just chill out and have a bit of a cuddle and not feel pressured. And, uh, on any given day, none of them have ever felt any pressure. Yeah, yeah, wonderful.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 32:37
So in addition to creating your business and, and growing your business and expanding it internationally, you've also had time to write a book.
Sue Spence (Guest) · 32:45
Book.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 32:46
Can you tell us about your book and what, what that experience was like for you?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 32:50
Oh, that was, that was again a really funny story. So I didn't know that I was getting written about by people, and I used to joke around. I'd say, oh, people would say, oh, Sue, someone's written an article about you, and you're in the Sydney Morning Herald, and you're in this other magazine. And someone messaged me from New York. I was in an article in New York, and even an article in Finland. I went, who's writing all this stuff? And I was joking, I said, goodness me, all these people are getting paid to write about me. I said, I should be writing about myself. It was all a bit of a joke. And there was lots of media going on at the time, like every TV channel, every magazine, every newspaper had been doing stories on me. And I'd just be going, who, what, where, when did this happen? Anyway, I get a phone call one day and I'm out in the paddock working with a bunch of, I call them my charming little rascals, you know.. And this particular group of young people, and I get a phone call, and I always have my phone in my pocket in case there's an emergency anywhere. And I answered it, and I heard them say something, Pam, or something. And they said, we really want to talk to you. And I said, oh, I'm dreadfully sorry, but I'm in the middle of running a session right now. I'll have to call you back, you know, this evening. Anyway, remarkably, there was an author here, and she was writing about me in her book. She was writing about horses and ponies that are rescued and go and have a lovely life. And my little pony Larry, I rescued him from an abattoir, and that little, that little pony's now been on the project even, and he has, he has turned the lives of thousands of young people around because he's so sweet. Anyway, she was writing about me and Larry, and, and she, she heard me on the phone. She said, Sue, she said, was that Pam? Was that Pam McMillan on the phone? Because I said, Pam, who are you? Pam who? I said, oh, Pan Macmillan, something like that. She goes, Sue, she goes, can you bring one of your assistants into the arena? Go and ring them back now. It's the biggest publishing house in Australia. Obviously she'd been trying to get published to them for a long time, it turned out, right? So I'm like, okay, cool, I better go and ring them back. And yeah, it was the, um, yeah, the publisher from Pan Macmillan, and she, and she said, look, we've been reading about all your articles and we'd like you to write your story. I'm like, what, me write me? Who wants to read about me? And I said, by the way, I've got ADHD and autism and I can't even write a shopping list without losing attention. I said, I don't know how you're gonna get— how many words do you want? And she told me thousands. And I said, oh, I don't know how we're gonna go. So she sent me a machine to talk into, right? But it didn't understand my accent because I'm— my family thing is I was brought up in New Zealand. And it just said— at some stage I was talking and it came up on the screen Scottish kilt, and I'd never said Scottish kilt. I was having a nightmare. And then I got bored because I like— lovely, I like to see you now, I like to talk I like to, you know, not feel like I'm sitting on my own talking to a wall. So that didn't work. Then we tried, then we tried something else and that didn't work. And I thought, we've given up. Now, I nipped into the hairdresser's one day, never one to make an appointment because I don't like sitting in them. And I stuck my head in the door and I said, look, could you possibly just whack a color on my hair and I'll go home and I'll rinse it off after I've cleaned the paddock when I get home? You know, something like this. She said, oh, come on in., and I sit down, and then lo and behold, this, this, um, the hairdresser is saying to me, how you going with your book? And I said, oh, it's a nightmare. I said, I can't, doesn't understand my accent. I said, I, I can't be focused enough to write by myself. And this head leans forward from down the row with foils on her head. She goes, is that you, Sue Spence? And I went, oh, is that you, Rita? I had taught her how to teach aerobics 20 years previously. Didn't even take me to the same hairdresser. She said to me, you're trying to get a book written? I said, oh, am I? She goes, she goes, that must be challenging. I said, you got no idea. She goes, guess what? She goes, I'm on a— I'm on 6 months leave at the moment. You know what I became? A court transcriber. She says, if Pan Macmillan are up to it, I can transcribe while you talk. So I went, no way! So I rang Pan Macmillan, her name was Alex at the time, the publisher. She went, um, she put me on and she goes, yeah, she's a professional transcriber for the courts. And so they did a contract up with her. So she came around and she sat on my patio with her laptop every day and I walked up and down, bluh, bluh, bluh, bluh, bluh, bluh, bluh, bluh, and she got every single word. So the book was talked out. So lo and behold, that has now become a fantastic way for young people that are mini-mes that struggle with literacy and having to do assignments and things like that. We can't sit down sometimes, but we've got it in our head. So I say to the teachers and parents and the carers, just get someone who's really good, ask them the question, get them to answer it, record it, and get someone to type it up. It's still our work. It came out of our head, it came out of our mouth, and it's the only way that we can help learning disabilities and just realize just what we've got inside that people don't realize we've got. And sometimes I turn to Rita and go, what are we up to, Rita? Where are we up to? And she'd read me something out and I went, oh, that sounds amazing. Did you write that? But she goes, no, Sue, I'm not writing any of it. That came out of your mouth yesterday. And I went, did it? I don't even remember saying that. So sometimes it's just this lovely natural organic flow that, lo and behold—
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 38:03
and then I was doing a, um, a workshop, it all came together, it all came together.
Sue Spence (Guest) · 38:08
And the, the book is called Horses Who Heal.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 38:12
And how can people find your book?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 38:15
Uh, on the website, there's a link on the Horses Helping Humans website. But then this was extra exciting. I was, um, doing another adult corporate workshop and, um, at the same health retreat, and I had a lady come up to me, very well spoken at the end, and, and, uh, we'd done Which Horse or Pony Are You, and she realized that she was, um, what we call the sunny horse, the one that's in charge and can be like, but you know, this, that, the other, chip chop, get this done now. And, um, she came up to me, then she goes, oh, that was wonderful. She goes, I've just, I've realized I'm the sunny horse and I've realized my poor husband's a Larry Pody. Larry's the, um, the phlegmatic, very calm, like, let's get things done. And we had a good laugh about it, you know. She goes, look, I want you to sign one of your books, because I sold my book at this retreat. So I want one of your books signed. I want, I'm going to send it to my very good friend immediately. And I went, oh, okay. So a book, a book's driven down to the arena, and I went to go, dear, and I thought, you know, who's it be for? A friend? I said, who would you like me to sign it for? She went, Her Majesty the Queen, because she spoke like that. Her Majesty the Queen. I just went, I beg your pardon, she's—
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 39:20
what?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 39:20
You decided Her Majesty the Queen? So I've been part of the royal family for years, we're very good friends. She now lives in Melbourne, this lady. She's— I'm going to post it to the Queen immediately. And, um, I think she's at Balmoral Castle at the moment, and I thought it'd be a good read for her while she's there. And I thought, oh my gosh, dear Your Majesty the Queen, that was really crazy. But it was, it was fantastic because my dad, when my, when my parents lived in, in England, um, before moving to New Zealand, my dad was a Rolls-Royce, um, specialist, and he looked after the royal family's Rolls-Royces. He was part of that. So Mum and Dad would always talk about going to the tea parties, and my dad's uncle, my great uncle Jack, was head of the guards. So we've always had this tie, and Mum would talk about, oh, you know, the wonderful tea parties at Buckingham Palace. And it was a world that I'd hear about. And my mum had passed away the year before this, and she would have been so proud. So I wrote, dear Majesty the Queen, you've been an inspiration to me, you know, all my best wishes, Sue Spence. And I thought, I won't hear about that anymore. And within a couple of weeks, I get a letter with the Balmoral wax stamp on the top. Thank you so much for your wonderful gift. You know, it's just, just an inspiration what you're doing. And it was just such a beautiful letter and so personal. And then I had to laugh because I was flying back from New Zealand. We had our Horses from Humans conference over there, and I flicked through the magazines in takeoff because I'm always nervous flying. And in all these magazines, the Queen's standing with her feet apart and sort of her hands in a sort of in her pocket. And it said, the Queen's posing changed. What's happened to the Queen? The Queen's— and I went, she's read my book and she's standing like a superhero. So I take those pictures to heart. But who would have thought, hey? It's, um, you just don't know sometimes. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, amazing, amazing.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 41:17
It's, it's as though, um, good things have come your way because you're doing such a good thing. Do you feel that way, that you're, you're in a flow and you've attracted good things into your life to bring, to enable and support you to bring this amazing program to the world?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 41:35
Look, there's something, there's something very powerful, um, you know, behind the program because I've had lots of other surgeries, you know, I've been out of action, I've, I've been through some, you know, losses and things like that with people. And but the program just continues to flourish. And sometimes when I'll, I'll be at my lowest, you know, if I've come out from a surgery or, you know, then I, I lost, you know, my mum and I lost my couple of, couple of friends. And then I, and then all of a sudden I get these testimonies coming from the other side of the country. These kids' lives— we've got all this back today— their lives have just turned around. And I go, how did that happen? Like, I've been going through all this stuff and I felt like I've had to take my foot off the pedal for a while, but this energy just keeps, keeps going. And, um, we've had, yes, thousands of young people now, um, have had—
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 42:30
does that make you feel— Sue, how does it make you feel knowing that you have— you are behind the helping and healing of thousands of people around the world, particularly Australia and New Zealand and elsewhere.
Sue Spence (Guest) · 42:41
Oh, I, I, I sometimes can't process it because, um, I know what I've done here and I know what I've witnessed here, and I've witnessed miracles. I have witnessed miracles of young people's lives changing. All I ever wanted was how can this help people in other places? Because I know when I went through the terrible bullying I went through when I was young, and it was, it was a really dark, dark time, and through other trauma. And I was getting phone calls from even like Child Protection or Youth Justice in other states going, look, you know, do you have your program here? And I was going, no, it's only me, I can't come down, like I'm too busy here, you know. And, uh, I, I really didn't know how, how it was all gonna— how it was all gonna come about. So as it unfolded, it's like I have to pinch myself all the time. And, and I go, well, there's definitely— whatever your beliefs are, you know, I believe, well, you know, God's behind it. How can this Sue Spence, like, seriously, autism, ADHD, didn't even pass English at school but ended up with a diploma in individual How's all this happen without help, you know? And, um, I remember one, one particular boy, and he'd been brought from, um, a really, really low socioeconomic area with a lot of crime and a lot of no hope. It's a really sort of a desolate sort of situation you come out of. He'd been right through every— everything in the system, and nothing was working, like nothing. They'd all given up. He was in the special units squad, they call it, and they just didn't know what else to do with him. So he ended up coming here, and, um, wow, I just really connected with this young man. And, uh, he, he connected so well with the horses, and he did so well with the horsemanship. Like, I swear he could have gone and been a professional horseman if he'd kept at this, you know. Um, he just, he just had that ability, and he didn't feel threatened in any way with me or the horses. So therefore, his real sort of personality could come out without him having to feel like he has to have this wall of aggression up, which is really— with a lot of people, that wall of aggression is because they're so scared because of what they've been through in the past. So let's put this massive wall of aggression to keep us safe. We'll get in there first before someone gets to us. So he learned, you know, very quickly that the quicker you drop that wall, the quicker relationships start to shift. And, um, his whole life changed after he came here. He, he re-engaged back into school. He ended up going on to study. He ended up working. He ended up coming back here a few years later with his girlfriend and his daughter. And he said, if I had not have learned what I learned with you and the ponies, he said, I wouldn't be the father I am or the boyfriend I am now. And, um, and there was another one that had like— oh my God, he had about 37 criminal offenses running at once. And, um, and I remember he, um, he'd been coming here for a few weeks and he came running down the drive and he's, he's going, 'Miss, Miss,' because they call me— he used to call me Miss. 'Miss, Miss, Miss,' he goes, 'Feeding.' He said, 'Oh, I went to have a fight last night and I breathed out and I didn't do it.' And it was like, high five! And the youth worker recalled that was the first time he had actually, um, changed that whole environment about all the fight. There was a lot of fighting going on. And from that day forward as well, we've got, you know, we've got the tracking of him that he re-engaged. He ended up getting a job. Um, we had another young girl and she'd been through horrific trauma when she was 9, and she was also ASD. She was also the same as me, level of autism as me, where I'm level 2. And she had stopped speaking all entirely. She completely shut down. The mum was devastated. And again, they tried counseling, psychologist, they tried, you know, child psychologist, all this, and nothing was working. So she ended up coming here, and it took a while. Um, I just ended up not ever making eye contact with her because I understand, I understand what that's like. And I'm just all about the pony. Oh, Mindy, so happy you're here! Oh, your energy is so beautiful. Thanks so much for coming back because Mindy gets really scared with a lot of people. And while I'm talking, I know that in her brain she's going, I'm like this pony, you know what I'm saying? Because there's all of a sudden this— and then I, and then I would say things like, I'm a bit like Mindy, I freak out with some people, hey. And I go, I find I hate even going to shops, like, oh my God. Anyway, Mindy loves your energy, it's beautiful. And anyway, she started— the first day she smiled. The, the mom and the youth worker were up here, uh, the family worker from the family services. And she smiled for the first time. 9— she was 14. 9, I have to count on my fingers, 19, 20, 25 years. And it was like the sun came out, and the mom and the youth worker had to turn around and come up the drive because they were both sobbing. Because her mom said, I thought I'd never see that young girl smile, you know, that I'd never see my daughter smile again. And then she would speak to me, but her voice still sounded 9 because she hadn't spoken being verbal for her. And then one day she comes up here, she knows I love unicorns, so you can see with my hairpin I love unicorns. And, um, she's a fellow unicorn lover and she had a unicorn t-shirt on. And she said in this little voice, she went, I went to, I went to the shop and picked this out. I said, you went to the shop? High five! How did you do that? I said, I still, I said, I'm still struggling going to some of the shops. Oh my God, you have to tell me what you did. I bet you did the Jelly Belly breathing we were laughing about. And then she said to me, she goes, um, She goes, Sue, I'm getting like you now. I talk all the time. And I said, oh, are you saying I'm a chatterbox? That's how I answer them. I don't make it, you know, and the relationships— and honestly, there's hundreds and hundreds of them that have come back to me or messaged me. You know, I've never forgotten what we did there. I've still got the photo of, you know, show day with my trophy and you and the pony and Like, it's, it's just been amazing. And I do get very emotional when I, I see videos, um, of my facilitators that I've trained in other communities with these outcomes saying, look, you know, here's a video of this young girl, her life's changed. And, um, like in New Zealand and Taranaki, all the videos, they were all over the news over there all the time. And you watch the testimonies there and I just cry. I just go, I can't believe that what I sort of— and even the, the Witch Horse or Pony Are You cartoons of how all the, the body language of the ponies, and that would come to me while I was out there cleaning the paddock, and I'd run up with a pencil and just draw these little stick figures until I found a cartoonist to draw them up for me one day. And, uh, so yeah, sometimes it's a bit overwhelming of how I think, oh wow, yeah, it's What do I think?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 49:35
Deeply, deeply rewarding. So you have expanded your program across Australia and New Zealand. How have you managed to expand it so successfully without losing the integrity of your program?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 49:49
Look, because, um, because the certified trademark was really important, because safety is everything— safety around horses, education around horses, safety and welfare of horses. And caring for people in the community. That it's all level. I'm passionate about the law of the market. I can get up and speak on any of those topics with, with what I feel, you know, should be done in different areas. So it was very important to me that there was a guideline, a certified trademark, that the rules and the, um, the professionalism had to be a certain standard. But this work attracts people with hearts of gold. Because every single person that inquires about being trained as a facilitator has a heart for helping other people, and they also are professional horse people as well. So there, I've got it already. And they might have different genres of horsemanship that they do, and they just have to adapt or train their horse a little bit differently. So, um, this is safety around people that have no horse experience, you know, when they come into the program. They're not always— so the way we do it, it's, you know, we video everyone. Everyone's horses are assessed by professional, one of the top clinicians in Australia. I couldn't keep up with all the video watching, so she watches those now and she certifies every horse. So it's like the horses have job interviews. They're like, you know, are we suitable for Horses Helping Humans? And she'll go, yes, tick, tick, tick. Or she— they do all the groundwork. That person knows what they're doing. Um, I then get them to send videos of their management. Usually I go, you know, a lot of times I go there, but they send me videos of where they're, where they're actually running the session, where the amenities are, where the first aid kit is, where the shade is. They have to do their safety talk. Um, so I've kept a really high standard, but the people have been salt of the earth, and I never thought there was just so many incredible people out there that just care about helping others. And I always explain like when you've been through a lot, and it's not just the breast cancer with me, it's a lot of other surgeries and, and it's trauma around other things as well, you know. And it's very dark in that tunnel. It is very dark if you don't know anyone that hasn't been through it, or you don't know where to go for proper help, whatever it might be. So my saying is, like, if you've gone through a really dark tunnel and something's helped you come out with some light at the end of it, it's your duty as a human being to turn around and shine that light that helped you like a little torch for other people that are in that dark space. And the people that I, I do my Zoom trainings with and meet, I just cannot believe the integrity and the passion these people have for making sure the world's a better place. And I'm very blessed, and I think that's the, the best part of me doing this, is meeting these people and knowing that there's— they're going to change the lives and communities because their heart is going to be beating hugely to bring them all in.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 53:00
Yeah, same purpose, same, same value, same, same intention.
Sue Spence (Guest) · 53:05
Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 53:06
So what would you like the audience to deeply understand about horses?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 53:15
Gosh, that they have such a range of emotion and how incredibly sensitive they are, how incredibly intelligent they are. And all they really want is to be peaceful. All they really want is to feel comfortable. But is that not what we as humans want as well? I feel that they can teach us a lot. On how we should, yeah, be making sure other people feel.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 53:47
Yeah, yeah. And finally, Sue, one more question for anyone in the audience who might be going through a tough time. What would you most like them to take away from your story?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 54:01
Look, I think never, never give up on what you want to do one day when whatever situation you're in has passed. And sometimes we think we can't, we can't do things, or, or there's something you want to do and you'll never be able to achieve that. Well, you've just got to get in around positive people. And when you're in the tunnel, you've got to find the right people to talk to. I think, I think the, the worst thing you can do is sometimes when you are going through a really traumatic time you close yourself off because you want to shut away and you're too embarrassed to talk to anybody about it. But you must reach out and talk to someone. Um, I've had the same psychologist for years and she's honestly been the safest person, professional, whatever, that I could talk to. And I think it's finding that person, and it might take a couple until you go, well, this is more like visiting my friend or my auntie than seeing, you know, there's nothing wrong with seeing a professional person in that field, but they have to have the right energy and personality to fit with you, you know. And also being able to share with people that are close to you, because the biggest— depending on your personality type, normally some people will just deflect with humor. I'm fine, I'm fine. Oh, make a joke, you know, because you don't want them to think that you're you know, the happy person, or you think, 'I don't want to bring these people down,' or whatever it may be. But it's essential that you are authentic and very real. My hope for what I teach personally, what I've been through and what I've had to learn on how to communicate when I've been struggling at crucial times and share it with someone I can trust— you've got to have someone you trust. You don't just tell anyone. You've got to be wise in who you share with.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 55:55
Yeah, discerning.
Sue Spence (Guest) · 55:56
Yeah, yeah. But, but my, my, my dream one day is educating more on emotional health, that it's okay. There's nothing wrong or weird about anxiety, depression, whatever it might be that, that you're, that you're, that you're struggling with. And you know how you can walk into any group of people, you can walk into workplace, you can walk into your group of your friends or family and you can say, gee, I woke up with a terrible headache this morning. You know, you can say that, okay, can't you? And people go, oh, you know, do you want a panel or whatever? We need to get to the stage where anybody can walk into a group of anyone they know well and go, oh my gosh, I woke up with the worst anxiety this morning. Or, oh my God, I work— I woke up with the really heaviest feeling this morning. You know, I'm in a bit of a dark place. And that should be okay. That should be accepted for someone to go, oh my gosh, if you— oh, you wake up with anxiety? No, sit down, I'll make you a cup of tea before we start work. Or no, no, look, we'll leave this conversation till later. Let's just sit down and maybe look at the trees. So there's not enough education and acceptance around emotional health. So the more everybody can learn to start speaking up and be honest, that's going to start pulling those barriers down. Because everyone pretending they're okay when they're not It's not working. It's the rawness of sharing your emotion with a safe person.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 57:23
Yeah, thank you, Sue. So for people in the audience who may want to learn more about your program, what could you please tell us? Your website?
Sue Spence (Guest) · 57:33
Oh yes, our horses helping humans Australia.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 57:37
So it's been such a pleasure. Getting to know you and listening to your story. So thank you very much, and thank you for what you bring to the world with your, with your wisdom and your, your connection with horses. It's precious.
Sue Spence (Guest) · 57:51
Oh, well, thank you so much for having me. It's, you know, it's a privilege to be able to share it and for you to give your time to do these as well. You do amazing work. My absolute pleasure.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 58:02
Thank you, Sue.
Sue Spence (Guest) · 58:09
Animals and Us is a production of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Xavier Rudd for his permission to use Follow the Sun as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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