Jamie Toyne
Jamie quit tennis at 18 and burned out twice more before realizing burnout isn't a performance problem-it's a misalignment problem.
Hear this story
Jamie Toyne quit competitive tennis at 18 after smashing his rackets on court, burned out running his own brokerage from Mexico, then burned out again two years later while building a government-backed accelerator. He was diagnosed with ADHD at 11, grew up adopted in Alice Springs, and spent years chasing trophies and achievements to prove his worth. What he discovered through three burnouts is that the problem was never the hours he worked or the intensity he brought. The real problem was misalignment.
After his second burnout, Jamie spent two years studying flow states, Eastern philosophy, and performance science. He thought peak performance was the answer. It wasn't. He learned that flow isn't just about entering an altered state of consciousness for a few hours. It's about removing the obstacles that block your energy from flowing back to you. He calls these obstacles boulders in the river. On the surface, he thought he was burned out from working 60 hours a week. Digging deeper, he found the real blocks were rooted in his adoption, his search for identity, and a part of himself he named the Trophy-Chasing Monster, the voice that drove him to chase recognition to avoid abandonment.
Today Jamie works with ADHD entrepreneurs through his coaching program FlowJo, helping them harness their neurotype by building lives around what genuinely energizes them, not against themselves. He's moved from asking how to be happy and fulfilled to accepting who he is and focusing outward on helping others do the same. The searching has slowed down. What remains is the work of embracing your own story and building everything around your strengths.
“As long as I'm chasing trophies and winning trophies, no one's gonna abandon me and no one's gonna reject me because I'm winning.”
“Flow is energy. Um, and so, you know, when the easiest way to explain energy alignment or, or, or not, or energy flow rather, is if I put energy into something, does it flow back to me or does it not?”
“The simplest way I can explain how to harness your ADHD is really to get clear on what your strengths are, what your passions are, what your values are, um, and what, what sense of purpose you have. And then once you're really clear on you, then look at everything around you.”
The hero, today
When you put energy into something and never feel it flow back to you, you're working with an energy vampire, and if you keep doing it, you'll burn out like a battery going dead. The real boulder blocking your flow is often much deeper than what sits on the surface, so when you think you're burnt out from working 60 hours a week, the actual block might be something you have to dig to find. ADHD is not something you need to manage out of your life but something you harness by getting clear on what you're genuinely interested in and building everything around that alignment. The relationship between your ambitious mind and your exhausted body has to work as a team, and celebrating small wins helps your body trust that your mind is listening and will slow down. You don't need to chase trophies and achievements to prove your value, and the deepest work happens when you accept yourself and get curious about what brings you peace instead of just more recognition.
Yes. Jamie Toyne is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
When you put energy into something and never feel it flow back to you, you're working with an energy vampire, and if you keep doing it, you'll burn out like a battery going dead.
The real boulder blocking your flow is often much deeper than what sits on the surface, so when you think you're burnt out from working 60 hours a week, the actual block might be something you have to dig to find.
ADHD is not something you need to manage out of your life but something you harness by getting clear on what you're genuinely interested in and building everything around that alignment.
John Milham (Host) · 00:00
Kintsugi Heroes acknowledges funding and was made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at cbf.org.au. Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. In this episode, John Millum had a chat with Jamie Toyne, who has navigated a life full of challenges challenges and growth. Diagnosed with ADHD at a young age, Jamie faced burnout multiple times, once as a pro tennis player and twice as a business owner.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 00:43
These experiences pushed him to understand and harness flow states to combat stress. Jamie's journey includes deep personal reflection, tracing his roots, and striving for authenticity.
John Milham (Host) · 00:57
We hear how Jamie shares how he faced his trauma, found balance, and now helps others do the same.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 01:04
Enjoy this one with Jamie Toyne.
John Milham (Host) · 01:09
Well, welcome listeners to Kintsugi Heroes once again, stories that matter. And today we've got a wonderful opportunity to hear quite the adventure from a young man, Jamie, Jamie Toyne. So welcome to Kintsugi Heroes, Jamie, and thanks for coming, mate. And to be honest, you're here because you've got one of the most energetic stories, right? For a bloke who's still young and still got most of his life ahead of him, mate. So I thought I'd just start with your bio, right? We've got to introduce you to the world. And then, mate, I thought we'd we'd explore some of the adventures you've been on and some of the things you learn along the way. That's all right. So Jamie was diagnosed with ADHD as a child, um, and you've burnt out 3 times in your, in your, uh, career so far, mate. So, uh, already racking up a fair total. Um, once as a tennis player, a work playing on the pro circuit, and twice, uh, owning your own businesses, right? And of course, like any young bloke with curiosity, you went and searched the connection between ADHD and burnout and flow, right? Which is a state as proposed by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, one of the giants of psychology. And you developed a coaching program called FlowJo. I love that, right? Which helps ADHD founders and business operators to cure burnout, right? Harness their ADHD superpowers and start flying towards their goal. And you're the author, mate. You've done a book as well, Pressure Gauge Mindset, and founder of companies called Dead Flow and Exit Planner. And you've helped more than, um, Deal Flow, sorry, not Dead Flow, right? And you've helped more than 400 entrepreneurs successfully exit businesses, right? Which is a unique, uh, prospect. Getting out is as important as and as difficult sometimes as getting in. So well done, mate. Thank you very much.
More stories
This site is part of Kintsugi Heroes. Visit the main site for the full podcast. If any of these stories hit close to home, support is out there, you don't have to sit with it alone.
Read how we handle these stories ↗
Kintsugi Heroes · Registered Australian not-for-profit · kintsugiheroes.com.au ↗
The relationship between your ambitious mind and your exhausted body has to work as a team, and celebrating small wins helps your body trust that your mind is listening and will slow down.
This conversation includes welcome to kintsugi heroes, the naughty kid in alice springs, on the pro circuit at 16, smashing rackets and walking away, higher self and lower self at war and tracking down roots.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 03:20
Thanks.
John Milham (Host) · 03:20
It's nice to be here.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 03:21
It's good to have you on with you, mate.
John Milham (Host) · 03:23
Fantastic. Now there's so much to talk about, but I'd love to start with, um, mate, who you are. Who do you see yourself and where did you start building that identity from? You know, who was young Jamie and, and, uh, how has that influenced, uh, Jamie of now?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 03:40
I think I'm still figuring that one out.
John Milham (Host) · 03:42
Yeah, well, that's— it's a— I reckon it's a work in progress. Where have you got up to then?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 03:47
Yeah, good question. Um, thanks for sharpening it. Uh, so I grew up in Australia, as you can hear from accent, born in Melbourne, but my parents split when I was 6, and my mum and I relocated to Alice Springs in the Red Centre. Uh, so I— my formative childhood years were there between 6 and 16. Really. Um, and a little backstory to that. So my parents— when I refer to my parents, I refer to my mother and father who adopted me, um, and raised me. Well, Mom, Mom raised me really. But, um, but yeah, so Mom and I moved to Alice Springs when I was 6. Um, so yeah, I went to school there. Um, I guess my identity as a child was like the naughty kid. Um, yeah, I was pretty disruptive in class, always getting in trouble. Um, often spend a lot of time on home suspension rather than in the classroom. I was extremely hyperactive. Um, and on the school's recommendation, I went to see a pediatrician, was diagnosed with ADHD. Mum was not having a bar of medicating her 11-year-old with methamphetamine, so I continued unmedicated and continued to struggle in the classroom. Um, but luckily for me, there were certain things that I could hyperfocus on and really excel in, and one of those was sport. All, all manners of sport. Um, but as I got, you know, I think so 14 or 15, I started to really focus on tennis. Soccer was my other big sport that I sort of travel around the country for. Um, and tennis, yeah, sport, I mean, in general was just a saving grace for me because I was able to develop, you know, good relationships with a coach, um, you know. And so it wasn't that I just had issues with authority, it was that I had issues with focus and classrooms in general and doing things that I weren't interested in. So, um, I'd say sport was a big part of my identity. I, uh, I relocated back to Melbourne. I got a scholarship at a sports school, um, and they sort of primed me to go into the American college system. And they had a, the sort of American college grading system, so you have to get certain grades and certain behavior to be able to continue to play the sport. And of course I continued to play up in the classroom, so I didn't get to play tennis at the tennis school. But I was at a level then where the— I was part of the Victorian sort of state squad, and the Australian Institute of Sport wrote a letter to the Victorian Department of Education and, um, and asked for permission for me to drop out of school and to finish my schooling by correspondence through distance education. So I was sort of like a, a digital nomad before there were digital nomads. So I— there I was sort of traveling around the place. Uh, I joined the pro circuit when I was 16, um, competing, staying in hotels, and just doing my Year 11 and 12 studies between tennis matches and training, essentially.
John Milham (Host) · 06:52
Wow. That, that, that would be a challenge for anyone, let alone a, a, a young bloke with, you know, some, um, you know, geographical, you know, confusion as well as, uh, you know, your biological confusion, you know, your difficulties as well as an ADHD diagnosis, man. You were sort of biting off a lot. How did you manage to, to, to stay productive and stay sort of within boundaries?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 07:21
Well, I didn't. I didn't at all. Um, I really struggled. I think, I think you're right. I think, um, you know, I've been a digital nomad for more than a decade, and, you know, one of the biggest things that people struggle about— struggle with when they work for themselves is managing themselves. And being their own boss is really hard, and they're often pretty, pretty nasty bosses at that. We're really nasty bosses to ourselves. So yeah, an unmedicated teenager with ADHD, it was a lot. Um, so I really struggled. Um, I, I, um, yeah, I would say that my, my tennis sort of went downhill as soon as the pressure was really on. When I joined the men's circuit, I was, um, 16. I, I had a bunch of sponsorships, and most of them were fun because it was free tennis rackets and free clothing and shoes. But one of the sponsorships I got was actually quite rare, um, and it was more like an investment So there was a very wealthy individual who was an absolute tennis fanatic, and he invested in a couple of people in Australia, sort of like betting on horses. And the deal was that he would pay— I mean, I was raised by a single mother who's a social worker. She didn't— she had a small wage, so she was spending 30-40% of her wage on my tennis. And so this was a great— this took a lot of financial pressure off my mum. He paid for my travel, my training, everything. In return, he got a 10% cut of my prize money. Now, you know, at the level I was playing in the tournaments I was competing in and the prize money I was winning, he wasn't going to see a dollar return on his investment. But if I cracked that sort of top 50, um, it might have paid off to be a good investment. And so I was one of 3 horses that he backed, um, in Australia. And, um, the pressure was incredibly heart, um, and I really got into my head. And, uh, it was actually on my 18th birthday when all my friends were finishing school and going off to schoolies to party, and I was playing a tennis tournament and losing badly. And, uh, I smashed all my rackets and I forfeited the match, and I never played again. I quit that day.
John Milham (Host) · 09:29
To this day, or have you captured tennis back again? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 09:33
I jump, I jump on the court from time to time to have a friendly bash, but, um, yeah, I haven't played a competitive tournament since That's huge, right?
John Milham (Host) · 09:39
So, you know, the foal he backed in the end, you were fast but, you know, you know, burnt out, right? Yeah. Wow. So that is— yeah, it's a classic case. Hey, um, just to backtrack a little bit, right? Because there's a lot you would like— you're being asked a lot, you know, um, asked to, uh, you know, to be someone, you know, who I would not expect, you know, a person in your situation to be able to sort of handle, and anyone in that situation to handle. So did that leave you like, did you blame yourself, or were you looking for someone to sort of point your fingers at? Was that— did that leave you sort of angry at the world, or—
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 10:24
yeah, I just certainly didn't blame the sponsor. I mean, it was a great opportunity, um, it was a lot of pressure, but the pressure was really I put on myself. I think at the end of the day, he probably saw himself like a philanthropist more than anything else. Um, but I put a lot of pressure on myself. I think, um, you know, I didn't figure this out until 10, 15 years later. But, um, yeah, I talk about this a lot in my work, but, um, you know, we have different parts of us that represent different— they're almost like protectors that sort of protect our vulnerable parts, based on internal family systems therapy. But, um, But I talk about higher self and lower self, or what I call the higher self, the general, and the lower self, the workhorse. And so, you know, or mind and body. And so I was really in my head. I really wanted to get to top 50 in the world, and I was all the way back here. And my higher self wanted to be there today, and it didn't matter how many matches I won or how hard I tried or trained, I wasn't achieving that goal now. And so Um, I never really celebrated my wins. I never really like gave a high five to the workhorse, my lower self, who was actually the one that had to jump on the court, do that, do the work. And my lower self, um, you know, was exhausted, um, stressed out of his mind, and like started to rebel against my higher self, started to slack off in training, started to throw tantrums on the tennis court, and sometimes purposefully lost tennis matches essentially because I just didn't want to do it. I was miserable. I was unhappy.
John Milham (Host) · 11:58
In some ways, that sounds like you were modeling your own behavior in a macro sense, right? When you were back at school, right? So giving—
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 12:05
Well, that's it.
John Milham (Host) · 12:06
Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 12:07
I talk about the carrot and the stick. So, you know, I hated the schooling system because it was all about punishment and reward. And it didn't really work for me. I just wanted to find something that felt good in the moment, which I later discovered is flow and why I became obsessed with flow. Because as Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi describes flow, it is an autotelic experience, which means that the action is rewarding in and of itself. So you don't need to discipline yourself or dangle the carrot of reward in front of yourself to get yourself to move up the hill. You just love doing what you're doing, and all of a sudden you're halfway up the hill. Um, and so that's what tennis was for me to a point, and then I got really in my head and started using the carrot and stick, and I essentially became my own— a worse version of the schooling system, essentially. And I rebelled, just like I did in the classroom, against myself. Absolutely.
John Milham (Host) · 13:01
So going back to that young teenager, right, who, like, in Alice Springs, which is a challenging environment for anyone to move into, right? So clearly your mum working in social work, she was also challenged and focused in a you know, a high-needs area, right? How did that, you know, and, and there you are adopted. How did that play out? Did you, did you have a thought about tracking down your, you know, the, your bio, bio parents and finding out who, you know, a bit more about that?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 13:33
Yeah, I mean, you don't really question much as a kid. It's only when some kid goes, why is your mum white? 'Why doesn't your mum look like you?' Um, but you go, 'Oh, I always knew I was adopted.' I had an open adoption, and I was very lucky to be adopted by my mother because she's one of the most incredible humans in the world. And yeah, I think her knowledge of, you know, traumatized kids and families and, and, and, you know, working in social services for so long— I was very lucky because she nurtured me in a, in a really beautiful way, um, that allowed me to, you know, I mean, she let me drop out of school. Um, some parents wouldn't allow that. Um, so I was very lucky. But, um, yeah, it wasn't until much later on did I start really, um, digging into the identity and belonging piece.
John Milham (Host) · 14:23
I—
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 14:23
so I had an open adoption, so I knew who my biological mother was, um, from birth. And Mum would take me to visit my biological mother who lived interstate. She lives in Adelaide. Um, and you know, she remarried. She's a Greek woman. So my roots are African— well, Ghanaian and, uh, and Greek.
John Milham (Host) · 14:44
Wow.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 14:45
Um, I stumbled— there's a bit of a story to why I stumbled there because I found out some new information about my roots quite recently. But, um, but my Greek biological mother had 4 children, um, my, my siblings. Um, and so I've always had a connection to them. I, I visit them, you know, every year. Um, and so I was— I always knew I was adopted. Um, but of course, you know, um, you know, I've done therapy since I was— I started doing therapy when I was 16, you know, sports psychology. And then after I quit tennis, I sort of kept carrying it through. So, you know, I'm pretty aware of the, the, you know, the things that are created, um, through those traumas, essentially. You know, you're in this comfy, familiar womb with the familiar noises and smells and sounds, and then you sort of burst out into the world, which is usually traumatic anyway. But then you never get attached to those, you know, those, that, that person again. Um, you know, I was put in a foster home for 3 months and then, and then adopted. And then, um, and then, you know, just the classic parents separating and dad leaving overseas with, uh, with someone that he fell in love with and not seeing him for a few years. And, um, and him always living, uh, he moved back to Australia but then living interstate, so I didn't have a particularly integrated relationship with him throughout my life. Um, and Mum never had another partner, so it was just, it was just really me and Mum, um, growing up. And, uh, yeah, we have a beautiful relationship.
John Milham (Host) · 16:14
It's an extraordinary series. Did you feel like you were more like— well, clearly you know, you struggling. It was a non-traditional situation with school and, you know, you know, problems with being put into boxes. But you had lots of re— it sounded like you had lots of resources around you and so on. Would you, would you say that kind of, you know, organization, while, you know, not normal, you know, what's normal obviously, but was it— do you think that was a net positive in your life having access to your biological mum and your adoptive mum's resources and, um, you know, other things?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 16:52
Yeah, it's interesting. I wouldn't say— I wouldn't describe them as resources so much. I mean, I mean, your, your, your primary carer is an absolute resource. Um, I wouldn't necessarily consider my biological mum a resource. Um, but it was, you know, it was just— it was nice to have a connection to that part of me, but also really confusing in a lot of ways. Um, And definitely some hard moments. I mean, it wasn't— it was an open adoption on my end, but there was a lot of secrecy in her family. Not all her family members knew about me. My grandparents didn't find out that I was alive until well after my grandma passed away, and maybe 2 years before my grandpa passed away. Um, so yeah, I remember I have memories of being a kid and being and visiting, and the grandparents popping over and them having to hide me in the house. Um, so yeah, I think, um, you know, there's a lot of challenges in that, in that relationship with my biological family, to be honest. But, um, but overall net positive, you know, like there's love there. And, um, yeah, I don't, um, you know, what I reflect on is probably just the way I was nurtured by my mother who raised me. Um, and yeah, I think, you know, I had a couple of friends that grew up in the same small town and you know, one's now not around anymore. And, um, you know, I was kind of pretty lucky to— you know, Alice Springs is a— can be a pretty rough place for young people. Um, and sport was really, um, a haven for me to sort of channel a lot of that energy. Otherwise, who knows what I would have put that energy into, you know?
John Milham (Host) · 18:33
Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of which, because then, you know, jumping out, you know, like when you, you talked about 18, right, and that moment when you said you broke your rackets and walked off, right? Um, how, you know, did you know what was happening at that moment, and how did you, you know, move forward from that point, which is a pretty dramatic life point when you look at it, right?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 19:01
Yeah. Um, no, I didn't know that I was quitting forever in that moment. It probably took me another 6 months, but I was so burnt out, and so I decided to take a month off and then A month rolled around and I still didn't want to pick up a tennis racket. Probably wasn't for 6 or even 12 months until I sort of really admitted to myself that I didn't want to do this. And I'd split Year 12 over 2 years so I didn't have— so I could manage the schoolwork. So I sort of that following year, I just finished off school. All my friends had finished school and were having the funnest year of their lives. So I sort of just joined in with that and started partying and having fun. And it was just so exciting. Um, and I was significantly happier. And it just— I just, just wasn't an option to go back to being unhappy. Um, yeah, yeah. And then I went to business school.
John Milham (Host) · 19:50
So did you classify burnout as burnout later on in life when you realized—
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 19:55
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 19:57
So business school, a kind of non-traditional educational profile, but business school, and you jumped on and then took on, um, uh, a lot of sort of tech and sort of entrepreneurial challenges. Was that your new tennis?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 20:14
Yeah, in a way it was. Um, I think I approached uni or like tertiary education very practically. I definitely— I was never going to do a liberal arts degree because I was sort of like, I had a clear idea of how, how I wanted to live. I had no idea what I was interested in. And so it made sense to go to business school because if I could learn how to commercialize my interests and my passions, I can do whatever I want. Um, and I sort of always had that vision of the digital nomad thing, even back then before it was really a thing. But the idea of being able to travel around and, um, go to conferences and meetings and, you know, I, I, I, my dad, he, I mean, he was a social activist, and, um, and a land rights— yeah, a land rights and environmental activist. But, um, he, you know, he did a lot of that traveling around to conferences, and he worked from home in his beautiful house. And so I had a bit of an, you know, like, um, influence from, from him. So that's why I started. I'm not— I was never very techie, and I've never been techie. Um, but of course there's a lot of opportunity in tech, and what I liked about tech was the company culture. It wasn't a stale environment. And back then, I think I finished uni in 2009, I think, or 2013, maybe 12 or 13. Yeah. Um, they had a table tennis table, they had a beer fridge stock, you know, the fridge stocked with beer, they had beanbags all over the place. And like, that was just exciting. And so I went for it. Um, and I just sort of went with the flow, and I got very lucky. I think the other thing about tech companies are they're usually run by young people. Sometimes they explode with growth, and, you know, you could be employee number 4 with a little bit of experience and the next, next moment be the director of a 30-person department. And that's essentially what happened to me. I, I, I got in at the right time as an intern. 6 months later, I'm, uh, being relocated to San Francisco to set up their North American operations.
John Milham (Host) · 22:19
Silicon Valley, right?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 22:21
In Silicon Valley, grew a team of 20 people and had a really great time over there for about 3 years.
John Milham (Host) · 22:28
That's got to be a head mess, mate, right? You're like, you know, suddenly you find yourself, you know, in a, you know, in an IT sense, in, you know, nirvana, right? Like, how did— how does the ego— how does that, and you know, that youthful energy, how does that all cope?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 22:48
Yeah, I thrived in that company, um, because I brought in that same intensity that I'd learned to train with on the tennis court. So I was in there early, I was leaving— I was the first one in and the last to leave. I had a lot of— my particular role involved working with people all around the world, so I'd be in the office at 4 AM running online webinars. And so I impressed, I made an impression on the founders and they took a risk with me and sent me over there. And I didn't let them down. We had tremendous success over there.
John Milham (Host) · 23:19
Which leads me immediately to think, you know, you've already started pushing yourself and setting that, you know, those expectations. So inevitably happens, you know, the same thing as the last time, have you gone too far? Did it all come crashing?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 23:35
It didn't when I was working for them, uh, for that organization. Um, I started buying small internet businesses and flipping them, um, and set up my own brokerage company, uh, in 20— the beginning of 2017, really. Um, and there's a bit of a story behind how that happened, but I'm not going to go into that right now. But essentially, um, I'm running a, a company, um, headquartered in San Francisco, um, and I moved to Mexico shortly after that because it was my business and I could live where I wanted. Um, large percentage of my clients are based in the US, so I wanted to stay on a similar time zone but live somewhere cheaper. Um, I've always wanted to learn Spanish. I've done some travel through South America earlier in the early on in my life. So I moved to Mexico and learned Spanish and learned to surf and had a great time there for a couple of years. And then I burnt out and it was quite a big burnout actually. I, well, I'm only still a lieutenant, but I stepped down as the CEO of my company, put an interim CEO in, and I packed up my bags and I flew back home to Alice Springs of all places to stay with mum. Yeah, it was a big, yeah, it was sort of like, I was really living the dream there for a while. You know, I, I sort of was, you know, put myself in a pretty good position financially and just having a good time. Um, and then, yeah, and then I burn out. And, um, I never really recovered from that burnout to the point where I, I fell out of love with the business during that burnout. So, um, I, I sort of, I, after the 6 months, I decided that I was going to sell the company. So that's what I did.
John Milham (Host) · 25:25
So had you learned the process to recover from burnt out yet?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 25:30
No, no, it wasn't until that second burnout that I started to think, hmm, what's going on here? And that's when I sort of discovered flow. Um, sort of like, what's the opposite of burnout? What's that? I want to like— why can I— what was that feeling I used to feel on the tennis court, or sometimes you feel on the dance floor, or the bedroom or, you know, wherever. And, um, why can't I get more of that? Why am I always so heavy and miserable and exhausted? Um, and so I felt like flow was the antidote to burnout. And so I went really deep on flow, um, read all the books on flow, historical books, um, as well, you know, like Eastern texts on sort of the philosophy of flow, um, and started doing all the things that you do to, to basically hack your body or your biology, your mind and your body, to get into a flow state. So for listeners, if you're not aware what a flow state is, it is a temporary state of altered consciousness when we are essentially performing at our best, when our sort of thoughts and decisions and actions sort of seamlessly start to click, um, and we're sort of really absorbed in the present moment. And there's a bunch of, you know, indicators for flow states. There's certain neurochemicals that show up in the brain, dopamine being one of them, norepinephrine and endomide and a few others. So, um, I got really deep on that and I thought that was the answer. Um, and so, and in a way I sort of really did learn some great, you know, ice baths, saunas, breathwork, yoga, you know, microdosing psychedelics, taking supplements for sleep and focus and all kinds of things. But I burnt out again 2 years later. And so when I burnt out that third time, at that point I was running a government-backed accelerator program. I published my book, uh, The Pressure Gauge Mindset, and I had launched my first software company called Exit Planner. And, um, I, and then I, and I burnt out again. Um, and this time it was less work-related and probably more personal life-related. I would say some big things happened. Some related to my adoption, um, and, you know, tracking down my biological father and, and some drama around that. Um, but the point— what, what I really learned from that third and final burnout, which was about 4 years ago, was that I wasn't— flow may be the answer, but the way I was approaching flow was not the answer.
John Milham (Host) · 28:01
That's fascinating. So like, I love that, you know, you touched on the definition of of flow. Just to backtrack, what do you— how do you define burnout?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 28:15
The easiest way, I just say when you're chronically stressed, overwhelmed, and exhausted. A better definition of that might be, you know, to be mentally, emotionally, or physically exhausted or stressed. Um, you know, we tend to have a negative attitude towards ourselves and others. Um, we have decreased motivation, um, and just overall decreased energy. But I, I think the key is chronic. Um, you know, talk about stress another time, but stress isn't necessarily bad, but chronic stress is bad. But yeah, I mean, and, and when you're, you know, there's, there's a sliding scale of everything, and that includes burnout. So when I talk about the threat— I've experienced burnout. You can experience burnout on a weekly basis, um, you know, when your energies are low. That's— but, but to, to have that experience of burnout where you cannot get out of bed and you cannot bear, like, looking, looking, looking at— like, I remember trying to lift the lid of my laptop and it being too heavy for me to lift. Not, not physically, but I just couldn't— I couldn't do it. And I remember after my second burnout, a friend told me that I had to buy a new computer because there was bad juju in my last computer because I couldn't, I had a physical reaction to my laptop. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 29:40
So if we define that you'll leave that, you know, physical, spiritual, emotional, intellectual, but you know, exhaustion, right? Which makes sense to me. So how, and then you said, well, you know, flow is a state of optimization of all of similar sort of matching areas. How do you, um, and you discovered there's more to flow and the more to the answer to deal with burnout. So take us down that path. Sure.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 30:08
So what I was doing for the most part, what I took from my understanding of flow in those 2 years between Burnout 2 and Burnout 3 was a very narrow Western lens. Of what flow is, which is this— which, which the word flow in the West has now become synonymous with flow state or peak performance, which is this altered state of consciousness. But if we look at the East, what one— for one, flow, the concept of flow has been around since the ancient Greeks. They called it enthusiasm. The Taoist monks called it wu-wei. The Zen Buddhists called it zazen, you know, um, and then, you know, um, Maslow called it peak experiences, um, you know, so there, there's a long history leading up to Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi in the '70s calling it flow, um, and it'll probably be called something else in 50 years. But, um, essentially, um, it— our understanding has become narrower and narrower. And if, if you look at the Eastern understanding of flow Um, it's more about a way of being rather than a temporary state. I mean, the science shows that we can consistently unlock a flow state for up to 4 hours a day. And, and I mean, we're talking like the LeBron Jameses and the, the Beyonces of the world, you know. The, the average Joe is probably not getting 20 hours of flow state in a week. So that's a very small fraction of our life, and there's a lot that happens outside of those 3 or 4 hours we spend in the flow state. And so it was outside of that time. I mean, I was performing well in work, but there was other things happening that were not flowing at all. And one of the big things that I look at with flow is alignment, energy alignment. You know, flow is energy. Um, and so, you know, when the easiest way to explain energy alignment or, or, or not, or energy flow rather, is if I put energy into something, does it flow back to me or does it not? Um, so if I put energy into a relationship, is it— is that energizing, or is it— is that— is that what, you know, am I relating with an energy vampire? They're draining me.
John Milham (Host) · 32:17
Yeah, you're draining it.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 32:18
Yeah, correct.
John Milham (Host) · 32:19
Yeah.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 32:19
And if you continue— I mean, it's just like, if you think of burnout like a battery, if you're continuously putting energy into something and the energy is going out and you're never really getting juiced up or feeling flowy or relaxed or peaceful, then Yeah, you're going to burn out. That's the easiest way to describe it. Um, and so, uh, I, I, you know, they talk, you know, particularly in the, in the Tao and the, in the, in the, you know, ancient Chinese sort of philosophy of Taoism, you know, they talk a lot about flowing water and the flowing river. And the analogy that I, you know, build on, um, is essentially, you know, if we think of ourselves like a river Um, you know, when there's a bunch of boulders in the middle of our river blocking the water from flowing down its natural course, we feel blocked. Um, and if we, we don't address those boulders, you know, we get less and less flow, and to the point where we're completely blocked and we burn out, um, because we're not getting any, any, any supply. And, um, so, so my approach is really simple. I've just removed the boulders now. Um, so I, I just— and, and I have developed a way of, a system of identifying what that boulder actually is because often it's really hard. You might say, I'm burnt out because I work 60 hours a week and I'm just working too much, but my business is great and this is great and that's great. It's just that I work too much. Well, why do you work too much? You start to dig deeper and deeper and the real boulder is actually something often a lot deeper. And if we can remove the boulders from our river, our river starts to flow again. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 34:02
Wow. And I love the idea of the boulders under, you know, in the middle of the stream, right? Of course, the stream then becomes very turbulent and kind of, you know, circular and stuff. So a bit chaotic. So you mentioned right up front, you know, like in your bio, the idea of ADHD being, um, a part, you know, early diagnosis and probably a way to describe some of your challenges at school and so on. How did then, you know, like how did ADHD manifest for you? How did you learn to deal with it? You know, you call, you mentioned superpower. How does it become a superpower?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 34:42
Yeah, great question. So, you know, particularly, I mean, it doesn't matter if you're, maybe it's even easier for kids that are diagnosed with ADHD as a kid. As a child in some cases, because at least you're aware of why your behavior is different. And, you know, but if you— a lot— most people are diagnosed as adults, um, and so they've lived their whole life feeling like they're, you know, they've been told they're unacceptable, they've told that they're lazy, or, you know, they can't focus, or they're disrespectful. Um, and so essentially, whether you know you've been diagnosed or not, essentially where we, we've been told that this is a neurodevelopmental disorder that we need to manage. Um, and yeah, I mean, it took me a really long time to sort of embrace my ADHD and, and figure out ways in which I could leverage it and harness my ADHD to become my superpower.
John Milham (Host) · 35:41
Yeah.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 35:42
And so, yeah, and I mean, that's, that's really the essence of the the program that I've, I've developed, which is called FlowJo. So it's really— I use, I use FlowJo because I take the word flow and the word mojo, you know, get your mojo back. And mojo means unique magical power. It's an Afro-Caribbean word, um, that means unique magical power. So really it's about, um, you know, a great example for me in a way is, um, the fact that I was able to escape the classroom and play, play on the tennis court. Um, it was, it was building an environment around what I was interested in, what I was passionate about. It's about following that energy. When I was in the classroom as a kid, I was putting energy into making people laugh and having fun, but that was not appreciated in the classroom at all. I mean, I got shamed and punished. Um, and so yeah, I think, um, you know, the, the, the simplest way I can explain how to harness your ADHD is really to get clear on what your strengths are, what your passions are, what your values are, um, and what, what sense of purpose you have. And then once you're really clear on you, then look at everything around you, from relationships to the way that you interact with business or creative projects or, um, staff or business partners or whatever, and make sure that they all align with you. I'm shrugging my shoulders and saying it like it's simple, but it's actually it's actually really confronting and hard work.
John Milham (Host) · 37:09
Well, it is, especially given, you know, like research tells us that, um, you know, in a, you know, by the age of 10 or 12, right, a kid with ADHD has heard 20,000 more negative comments than a kid without ADHD. And so every 10 years of someone, you're probably going to encounter another, you know, that 20,000 extra sort of negative assessments, right, even as an adult. So And, um, so it must be very, you know, uh, forms your view of yourself. And I, so I'm interested in, you, you know, get, you've gone ahead and taken on new challenges all the time. Was that as a, like, why, how did you manage to, to break out of that sort of framework of criticism and, you know, lack of self-worth that so often ADHD, um, causes kids to have?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 38:11
Yeah, such a great question. Do you remember me talking about higher and lower self?
John Milham (Host) · 38:15
Yeah.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 38:17
Yeah. So another way of describing how burnout works is that relationship. What snapped inside of me? What caused me to smash my rackets and quit? What caused me to like pack my bags and go back and live with my mum? Was that that relationship between my higher and lower self completely exploded, and it had been in tension and conflict for years. And so getting those two parts of you to work together as a team is— it's a really challenging thing, particularly when we are our own nasty boss and we have a lot of negative self-talk and we're very hypercritical of ourselves. Um, but yeah, I mean, I work with my clients, I'm constantly working with systems that, um, and this is connected to unlocking flow states, but creating positive dopamine cycles. I mean, you know, one of the things with, um, with ADHD is, is that, I mean, usually we have a lower sort of default mode of, of, of dopamine, but, but actually what it is is that our dopamine cycles are dysregulated. So some, some actually have higher amounts of dopamine, but it's the, it's the way that dopamine is released in our brain. And so setting up these sort of positive feedback loops that are smaller and tighter— so for example, um, you know, I had a miserable time writing my book. Um, it took me 5 years to get the thing out. And, you know, had I have shared, had I have created a newsletter or social media and taken bits of it and shared it as I was creating it, I would have got some, some, some positive dopamine from it. So Um, you know, and I think just going back to the tennis career, I was— I really— it's really obvious, but, you know, I didn't celebrate my wins. Even when I won a tennis match, I didn't celebrate winning the tennis match because I just— unless I won the tournament and then got a certain ranking, and then, you know, I was moving upwards like that, it didn't really— yeah, I, I hadn't learned those skills yet. But now I'm— I would say my higher self is much kinder to my lower self. And they work together a lot better.
John Milham (Host) · 40:18
It's interesting, I've often encountered, you know, with ADHD, the wins or achievements are not celebrated because that's maintenance, right? And it's the next one that's more important than the last one. So there's no time to celebrate because, oh, you know, all very well to get a trophy for something, but it's the next trophy that's now becoming more important than the last, right? So you know, you move straight on without celebrating. So yeah, that seems to fit. It's a great— so as a young, you know, like, you're very young to have worked this out. Then you're like, uh, you know, many of us, uh, you know, take, uh, you know, 50 years to, to become wise around how to look after yourself, right? So what do you— what you had lots of, lots of different stimulus. What, what do you, what do you think was was a good reason that you were able to sort of work out stuff so quickly.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 41:21
I'm gonna— you made me giggle, and you can't see because of the complexion of my skin, but you've made me blush too. I don't know if anyone's called me wise before, but welcome to the—
John Milham (Host) · 41:31
welcome to the circle of elders, mate. You just don't have the gray hair, right?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 41:35
You know, I die, I die. Um, Definitely, yeah. So I wouldn't say wise, but I'll reframe your question so I feel more comfortable answering it. So why, why, why have I searched so much, um, and discovered so much, um, about myself? And I would say it has a lot to do with my adoption. Um, you know, I, I, you know, most people when they're born, they have a mom and a dad and a brother and a sister, and you know, those, you know, they start life with some very basic answers. Um, about who they are. And I didn't start with that. Um, yes, I knew who my biological mum was, but I didn't know why she gave me up until I was 28. Um, I didn't know any of the context of that, and all I had was a, a tiny photo of my biological father and a name, and that's all I had. That's what I grew up with, you know. And so, you know, um, You know, and I was raised by Anglo-Australian parents. If you can't see this and you're listening to this, I've got curly hair and dark skin. And, um, you know, I, I was always different. I went to a school— I've always sort of existed in a white world and sort of felt like the black sheep in a lot of ways. And I've always had many, many questions about who I am and where I belong and stuff like that. Um, So yeah, just, just deep questioning, existential anxiety, and, um, you know, depression. And, um, yeah, I mean, I've had a long struggle with mental health, um, and so I've done a lot of therapy, I've done a lot of different things to, um, regulate my ADHD but also my anxiety and depression, and, um, and, and try to, try to, you know, enjoy my life as best I can. So I think Honestly, that's probably why I've done such a lot of thinking around this stuff.
John Milham (Host) · 43:35
It's really— thanks for sharing that aspect of you so honestly, right? So, because in the bio, right, we tend to put our positive spin on, but from my perspective, I'm incredibly impressed with having depression and anxiety and still being able to adventure and challenge yourself and survive essentially that stepping out of your comfort zone. Is it all right if I ask a little bit about that? What did you do and what did you learn from challenging your diagnoses, your depression and anxiety? It would've been easy. I'm looking at all of this activity and adventure and, you know, and, you know, um, you know, engagement with the world, uh, which is not normally part of somebody who is struggling with depression and anxiety. Um, and I'm wondering how, you know, was that movement part of get— trying to deal with it or get out of it, or did you, uh, unlock a way to put it aside and still take action? It seems like a really resourceful way to take it on.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 44:53
Yeah, interesting question.
John Milham (Host) · 44:55
Maybe to clarify, like, my, my, my— when I'm anxious and depressed, I tend to lock up, right? You know, I tend to, you know, to hide. But it looks, uh, in some ways the opposite. Is that true, or am I just—
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 45:08
yeah, it's— it is true. Yeah, I think, um, you know, you mentioned the trophy thing before. I talk about this alter ego of mine called the Trophy Chasing Monster.
John Milham (Host) · 45:17
Right. Is this part of the group in your family systems? Is it?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 45:21
Yeah, yeah. And as long as I'm chasing trophies and winning trophies, no one's gonna abandon me and no one's gonna reject me because I'm winning. Yeah, yeah, I'm valuable. Um, this is a, this is a, a physical symbol of my value as a human in a community that will accept me if I have lots of these, I think, is the, the, the subconscious there. So Yeah, and I would say most of— I would say I've had depressive episodes. I, I wouldn't say I've suffered from chronic depression. I've suffered from chronic anxiety. And so, um, you know, it's not a comfortable feeling to be anxious. So, you know, sitting in the anxiety is not particularly nice. So doing things and distracting yourself and, you know, avoiding uncomfortable feelings Um, you know, and so the moments when I, you know, quit tennis, that's when I, you know, and took 6 to 12 months off, that's when I sort of, you know, dipped into a depression and then, and then partied and felt, you know, uh, and then, you know, after my, you know, moving back in with my mum, going back to my hometown, you know, um, and just gardening, tending mum's garden and doing therapy. I mean, nothing, it was, that was a really hard challenge. Um, but I was busy, you know, and then I started— that's when I went deep on my, you know, my, my history with my adoption and tracking down my biological father. And yeah, but, um, yeah, I would say— does that answer your question?
John Milham (Host) · 46:53
Yeah, yeah, no, it's good. Yeah, so like, you know, it's all inside.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 46:57
It's—
John Milham (Host) · 46:57
there's no right or wrong answer. I don't need to tick, you know, I don't need to issue a pass mark to your story, but I'm loving to hear, you know, the take And I'm also fascinated because I find like so many, so many of us have, you know, a story, you know, challenged in certain ways by, you know, maladaptive behavior, whether it's, you know, saying anxiety or substance issues. And it's the resilience, right? I think baked-in resilience that helps us find a pathway to turning that around, becoming something of who we can become, right? Our best expression. Do you feel like you are moving? Is that something that you're constantly seeing, your best expression? Are you seeking to be better or seeking to achieve what you want to achieve in life?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 47:50
Yeah, and I'm absolutely not there yet. Yeah, definitely, I'd love to look you in the eye and say that I'm content with myself, but no, I think Oh yeah, and I also love that about myself. But, you know, I think I'll always be— there'll be parts of me that I'm always trying to, to improve and learn. And, and, um, you know, I want to stay open and curious and keep, keep, keep developing in different ways.
John Milham (Host) · 48:15
Um, yeah, I have a thought about safety, right? Um, safety is the place where we need to start to be able to take risks or put ourselves out there. What's safe for you?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 48:30
Whoa, big question.
John Milham (Host) · 48:34
Or how do you find it?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 48:37
Well, you've stumped me on this question because I'm wondering if I've ever felt safe.
John Milham (Host) · 48:41
Yeah, like, you know, it certainly seems like, you know, you haven't sort of spent a lot of time hiding from anything.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 48:48
No. Um, yeah, but I was trying to scratch my brain and think of the last time I felt I mean, I mean, what does safety mean? Um, you know, I think I'm not worried that someone's going to jump into, you know, break into my house and harm me physically. Um, but yeah, I think I was, you know, that what that, that, that word safe was sort of resonating on more of a, you know, how does my nervous system feel? Do I, you know, do I experience peace? Um, I think, you know, I've done a few, you know, 10-day silent meditation retreats, the Vipassana Center, and, you know, have def— you know, I do the things to try and get there and have experienced moments of it. But, um, yeah, I think, um, you know, yeah, there's such a link between childhood trauma and ADHD as well. So, you know, I think I'm very accepting of myself. That is the one thing that I have, I have learned and getting— it's a skill I'm building to be more accepting and compassionate of, of myself and my story and my experiences. And, you know, I may never be the cool cucumber that, you know, when something— when there's a risk of something happening in the future, I'll probably always be a bit hypervigilant and a bit ruminating about it. Um, and it's just— I just— just something I have to manage, you know. My nervous system, I can do things to regulate it, but there's probably things I'll never fully change about myself. And, you know, there are anatomical differences in my brain compared to someone that does not have ADHD. So, you know, there are— it is a neurodevelopmental difference, you know, a divergence, so to speak. So, um, yeah, I think the biggest thing, and, you know, really what my program's about working with ADHD entrepreneurs, is really just embracing the you, um, and building everything around that to work for you. Um, and that's how you're going to experience more more flow, more peace, more enjoyment, more fulfillment.
John Milham (Host) · 50:49
I think that's a really good answer, mate. Um, especially, you know, the, the impact of acceptance to provide intrinsic safety, right? I really like that idea. What, what, um, do you like in it? What do you see and admire in others that really sort of, you know, draws you, encourages you?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 51:11
Authenticity is something that I'm really magnetized by and enthralled by and inspired by, is when people are brave enough to just really be themselves, really lean into their quirks and their individuality. I find it extremely, um, exciting and, um, Yeah, I'm really drawn to people that have that ability, but it's a pretty rare ability to be yourself. It's very hard to be yourself.
John Milham (Host) · 51:43
What do you think? Um, you know, I guess I think one of the challenges with authenticity is even knowing what it is. What, what, what, how do you see it in others and recognize it? What do you think it might be?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 51:57
Ah, yeah, I, I couldn't, I couldn't explain it to you in with words. It's an energy thing. You can just tell. It's, it's the way in which they're talking. You can, you can feel it in their energy when they're— when they're from the part that they're speaking, their tone, um, their body language. Um, you can, you can tell when someone's speaking from the heart or from a very deep grounded part of themselves versus, um, you know, regurgitating, you know, dogma or something in between.
John Milham (Host) · 52:30
I love that idea. Who do you want to be? Who do you want to borrow, right? Who do you want to model? Who do you want to be?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 52:40
Who would I like to borrow or be? Someone who inspires me. I need to have an answer ready to go. This is like my first ever podcast. I need to have a couple of shotgun answers ready to go.
John Milham (Host) · 52:55
No, no, I think that's, that's cool. Like, uh, you know, when you're, um, you know, comfortable in your own world, right? So, um, maybe we could twist it and say, where do you want to be?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 53:09
Where do I want to be? Not too far from where I am now in terms of the work that I'm doing, I would say. Um, I think I'd like to work with a great, like, a larger reach of people. You know, um, um, so I think continuing to do this work and starting to do things like this, um, you know, jump and have some yarns, some recorded conversations, um, and, you know, I enjoy public speaking. I want to do some more speaking, um, storytelling. I've just started working on a new book, um, so yeah, I guess just continuing this work, continuing almost like a phenomenological study of myself, uh, as I get to work with clients like me that have ADHD and are in the creative space or the entrepreneurial space.
John Milham (Host) · 53:58
Yeah, fantastic. And, and what's it— what do you, um, I, I, I want to explore, you know, the emotions of your future. What do you, you know, what will love look like for you?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 54:17
That's a, that's a tender, that's a tender question right now, um, in this, in this very moment.
John Milham (Host) · 54:25
But, um, well, you know, you've got to, you know, you've got to, um, you've got to pay your dues in that world as well. Do you know what love is?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 54:39
Yeah, I do. I've, I've, I, I know love deeply and intimately. Um, yeah. Um, what will it look like? Well, I hope I feel safe, um, and secure. And, um, yeah, I want to be, yeah, in a, in a, in a lovely sort of partnership with someone that, um, you know, we're building a life together and, um, and going on a bit of an adventure.
John Milham (Host) · 55:05
Sounds great. And mate, uh, it's been, um, uh, an awesome, um, exploration, right? So what, what would you like if we were to say, um, you know, package up some highlights, right? How would we finish the package? What, what, you know, what, what brings all, all of you at, at this stage is still a young man still looking to, you know, create a legacy and to, and to grow into his best expression. What would you close this chapter with?
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 55:38
I think there is a desire for the, the searching to slow down a little bit, you know. I feel like I've been searching and searching and searching, um, for how, you know, how to, how to be happy, how to be fulfilled, how to be content, um, you know, what my, what my identity is, where I'm from, who, who's my father, um, which I know less about now than I ever have, funnily enough, um. So, uh, yeah, I think, I think, you know, I'd like, you know, this chapter, you know, if I wanted to sort of bookmark this chapter, I think it would be that I'm, I'm, you know, pretty, pretty content with who I am. I'll continue to learn and grow, um, but yeah, more, more of an outward focus on you know, helping others, you know, be the best versions of themselves and yeah, and really learning to embrace their story and, you know, their strengths and their passions.
John Milham (Host) · 56:46
Well, that is a great summary for a terrific chapter so far, mate. It's been an absolute pleasure to hear a bit about it and I'm looking forward to, say, you know, being around for the next chapter, right? So we'll chat again. Man. So thank you very much, Jamie, for being on Contiki Heroes and sharing your story so bravely. Awesome job, man.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 57:05
Thank you. It's been, been fun having a chat. Thanks for asking such hard-hitting questions. You did great.
John Milham (Host) · 57:14
First big podcast, you did, did a terrific job, mate.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 57:16
Well done.
John Milham (Host) · 57:17
Thanks very much, mate. Let's—
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 57:18
thank you. All the best. Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes.
John Milham (Host) · 57:27
Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, Head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation.
Jamie Toyne (Guest) · 57:57
Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
You don't have to be in crisis to call.
Subscribe
Spotify
Apple