Jason Higson
Jason outran trauma for 35 years until the barriers holding him alive began to fade, forcing him to finally stop and face what he'd been escaping.
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Jason Higson is 52, a single dad from Western Sydney who spent 35 years running from trauma without realizing that was what he was doing. His mother was disowned by her family at 15 when she fell pregnant with him in 1971. Growing up in a fractured household, Jason learned early to use the energy from that chaos as fuel. He left home at 17, built a life, and kept moving forward, never stopping long enough to process what had shaped him. It wasn't until his marriage broke down 13 years ago that the weight of it began forcing its way to the surface.
What changed everything was a conversation with a mate who told Jason he'd crossed a line. Suicidal ideation had shifted from something distant he could push away to something that felt like a real option. Worse, the thought of his son, the one solid barrier keeping him alive, had started to fade. That same day, Jason went home, googled mental health clinics, and checked into Northside Clinic for three weeks. It was the first time he'd stopped running.
In the years since, Jason has done the harder work: learning to be emotionally vulnerable, understanding his own warning signs, and separating being a catalyst from being responsible. His grandfather was institutionalized and died of alcoholism. Jason inherited different tools. He's now in a relationship where he can be open in a way he never has before, and he's learning who he actually is. His message to his younger self is unvarnished: you cannot outrun trauma. If you don't process it, it catches up with you, and when it does, it comes down like a ton of bricks.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses suicide & self-harm prevention, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • Lifeline (24/7 crisis support): 13 11 14 · lifeline.org.au
“it's gonna catch up with you. You can't outrun this. That's probably been the, you know, cuz like I said, I spent most of my life using this really negative energy as fuel to do what I needed to get done, to do the things I wanted to do, but also to run away from it.”
“the thing that scared the shit outta me, to be honest, was that barrier seemed to be fading. Yeah. And it seemed to be fading pretty rapidly.”
“I'm in a new relationship with a woman now where I'm so open and emotionally vulnerable with her that it's sometimes I just think to myself, who am I? Like, What have you done with Jason?”
The hero, today
Jason spent most of his life using the energy from trauma as fuel to better himself without realizing he was running, and therapy showed him this wasn't sustainable fuel. When suicidal ideation shifted from something he ruminated about to something where he started thinking through methods, Jason knew he'd crossed a line and checked himself into Northside Clinic. The worst barrier Jason had to break through in his own life was emotional vulnerability, something he'd learned to protect himself against since childhood, and it took leaving home, two broken relationships, and professional help before he could change that. Jason carries the weight of his birth causing his mother's disownment and his parents' relational breakdown, and a turning point came when he separated being a catalyst from being responsible, his birth triggered reactions, but the adults chose how to respond. Jason's fuel now comes from the satisfaction of changing how he approaches his life, from being open and vulnerable with his partner in a way he's never been with anyone before, and from understanding maybe for the first time who he actually is.
Yes. Jason Higson is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Jason spent most of his life using the energy from trauma as fuel to better himself without realizing he was running, and therapy showed him this wasn't sustainable fuel.
When suicidal ideation shifted from something he ruminated about to something where he started thinking through methods, Jason knew he'd crossed a line and checked himself into Northside Clinic.
The worst barrier Jason had to break through in his own life was emotional vulnerability, something he'd learned to protect himself against since childhood, and it took leaving home, two broken relationships, and professional help before he could change that.
John Milham (Host) · 00:00
Katsuki Heroes acknowledges funding and was made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at cbf.org.au. Welcome to the Katsuki Heroes podcast, where we share inspirational stories of everyday people going through different challenges and how they overcome them. Please be aware that the story you're about to hear may have moments of deeply felt emotions and personal experiences. If anything you hear has a triggering effect, please reach out to someone who can help keep you safe. If you love this conversation, we'd love you to like and share it with your friends so we can continue to share more inspiration and hope to as many people as possible. Now listen up for our next hero story. This week, John Milham sat down with Jason Higson, a 52-year-old single father from Western Sydney whose personal journey through severe childhood trauma, the breakdown of his marriage, and imminent mental health challenges paints a compelling portrait of resilience and recovery. Jason opens up about the turning points that led him to seek serious help and confront his past traumas head-on. He reflects candidly on how managing his mental health is not just a moment of crisis intervention but an ongoing commitment. He shares his insights with John on the importance of self-awareness, therapy, and community support in forging a path toward healing and hope. Enjoy this one with Jason Hixon.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 01:53
So recording's on and I am enormously pleased and privileged today to have a conversation with Jason Hickson. And look, I'm not a big fan of the bio, reading out the bio, but you can see how interesting and impressive this man is on the screen. And I'll ask him to tell us a little bit about who he is and how he got here. Jason, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me today. Who are you?
John Milham (Host) · 02:22
Oh, mate. So, uh, yeah, I guess high level bio. I'm a 52-year-old guy, um, single dad, one son who's about to turn 14. Grew up in Western Sydney, sort of, you know, lower socioeconomic situation. You know, childhood was interesting. Uh, my parents come from interesting backgrounds and they had their own stories.
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Jason carries the weight of his birth causing his mother's disownment and his parents' relational breakdown, and a turning point came when he separated being a catalyst from being responsible, his birth triggered reactions, but the adults chose how to respond.
This conversation includes who you are, the family that disowned, running on fumes from trauma, the men who came before, the moment he couldn't hide anymore and the barrier starts to fade.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 02:46
So in terms of interesting, that's the universal bloke euphemism for it was bloody tough.
John Milham (Host) · 02:55
Yeah, look, yeah, yeah. Look, my mum had me when she was 15, which in 1971 was not the thing to do. Yeah, my dad was a bit older. Both my mum's family, they both from North Ryde, from different sides of the tracks, so to speak. Mum's family were a bit more well-off. Dad's family were Housing Commission, you know, dad's one of, I think, 7, the oldest of 7 kids. Yeah. And obviously my mother falling pregnant at such a young age caused a massive, massive effect in both families to the point where she was disowned. It just was really the catalyst for a lot of trauma and a lot of challenges that wouldn't catch up with me, I guess, until much later in life.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 03:38
I see that, um, talking to men, I see that we get to a certain age where the momentum of life slows down enough and there's sort of enough achievement or disappointment or whatever that, you know, that, you know, in our lives where we can't ignore what comes up from that.
John Milham (Host) · 03:56
Yeah, definitely. It was, um, it was definitely, you know, growing up in Blacktown in Sydney's west, so I'd kind of identified when we moved there, when I was, I think I was about 12 when we moved there. But I was very quick to sort of just recognize that it wasn't a place I wanted to spend a lot of time in. It wasn't where my future lay, so to speak. And given sort of, you know, pretty tumultuous household that I grew up in, I basically couldn't wait to get out of home. So I left when I was, oh, just around, just before I turned 17, I think. And look, I spent probably the next, you know, up until I guess things probably started to catch up with me around the breakdown of my marriage about 13 years ago. Up until that point, I was just focused on doing better for myself, living my life, finding where I belonged in the world, focusing on work, just trying to make a better life for myself, you know? Obviously I didn't finish high school, so I dropped out the year before HSC. And started working. And yeah, so I didn't have, didn't get a chance to go to university or anything like that. So I was just out there, you know, I think using all of the energy from the trauma to drive myself. You don't even realize at the time, but after, you know, years of therapy and talking about your childhood and how you grew up and how you lived your life, you kind of realize that you were running, you were using that as fuel to, to better yourself, I guess, or to get to where you need to go. But at the same time, it's a— I don't think it's an ideal fuel. You know, earlier this year I checked myself into the Northside Clinic and spent 3 weeks in there, and it was probably one of the best things I've ever done. But talking to the psychs in there, I quickly realized that, you know, one of them said to me, you know, I'm amazed you got this far before you fell apart. Given everything you've told me about your childhood and how you grew up and various other things, it's a miracle you got to 52 until you got to this stage. Most people don't get this far. So she goes, you know, she said it's actually a kind of a credit to you, to your resilience.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 06:10
Our fathers and grandfathers, they had similar issues, right? They just didn't have the room or the time to, you know, to deal with it. So they locked it up or they used it as fuel.
John Milham (Host) · 06:20
Mate, my grandfather's a classic example. So my grandfather on my dad's side was institutionalized when he was, I think when he was 27 and he spent something like 6 or 7 years in the psych ward at North Ryde, Macquarie Hospital, I think it ended up being known eventually before it was shut down. And he had, he was given electroshock therapy and, you know, from speaking with my dad about it, was worse when he came out than when he went in. Yeah, got out when he was about 35 or something and basically drank himself to death from there. So who knows, he could have had bipolar, manic depression, but I do remember he would spend days, days, literally days in bed and you wouldn't see him. And then he would just get up and drink from dusk till dawn sort of thing. So yeah, look, it obviously runs in my family on that side. And to your point, exactly that, like he, he. Yeah, he was born in like 1924 or something. So he was, you know, that generation, there was, there was literally nothing. There was no support. It was just suck it up, be a man, get on with it, have a drink, you know? Yeah. So look, I, you know, I think we are really fortunate that we have a whole world of resources available. The problem now I find is the stigma attached to using those resources. And I think as, as we discussed, we've discussed previously was that I think there are two types of stigmas that need to be broken down. It's your own. Yeah. And, and, and the stigma of others when you, when they found, when they find out that you may have mental health problems or whatever. You know, when, when I checked into the Northside Clinic earlier this year, it took me, I was there for 3 weeks. Um, it took me a solid 3 days just to wrap my head around being there. I'd go and do the, do the work and sit in the classes and stuff, and then I'd go back to my room and I'd just be just literally pondering like, how did I get here? Like what?
Jason Higson (Guest) · 08:15
Do you think there was a conflict about who you saw yourself as or who you were ready to acknowledge yourself as?
John Milham (Host) · 08:23
Yeah, good question. Look, I've always been acutely aware of who and what I am. Always been acutely aware of the struggles relating from my childhood trauma, which are kind of many and varied. But I guess for the longest time I spent as I said before, the energy that comes from that, trying to better myself and, and I guess to a certain extent, like everyone kind of running away from it and thinking, no, I've got this, I'll be fine. I'm just, but I found that the older I got, it was catching up with me. And I think, as I said before, I think the catalyst for it really starting to catch up with me was the breakdown of my marriage. And then again, earlier this year when I checked into the Northside Clinic, um, that was at the end of a, the breakdown of another long-term relationship that I was in for 9 years. I'd been struggling for probably a good 3 or 4 years before that and had gone on various medications that helped but had pretty horrendous side effects. But yeah, there's a whole combination of things, you know, getting older, childhood trauma, breakdown of long-term relationship, work pressures, just all, all came to a head. And I guess, uh, an interesting point to chat about and one that's kind of close to my heart when it comes to breaking down these stigmas and barriers around mental health is, you know, suicide and suicidal ideations. And I personally have had them since— for as long as I can remember, you know, probably going back to being a preteen. And so it's for something— for me, it's always been something that's been in the back of my mind. And you go through— I've always gone through times of ruminating about it, um, had never created a plan or had any solid intentions of doing anything about it. But that was, I guess that was the catalyst for me checking myself in earlier this year, was that thinking changed.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 10:15
Started to get real.
John Milham (Host) · 10:17
Yeah, I started to take, I think I started to take it more seriously. I started to, you know, think it through. And I think up until that point, the thing that had, the thing that made me worry and realize that maybe I had crossed the line with that was my son had always been a reason for me not to not to do anything or to act on it. And the thing that scared the shit outta me, to be honest, was that barrier seemed to be fading. Yeah. And it seemed to be fading pretty rapidly.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 10:46
Would you say that that fade was like a twist from I'm here to support him to I'm here, you know, getting out of his way might be a better option?
John Milham (Host) · 10:56
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the, the thought process changed from like you said, I'm, you know, being here to support him and being his rock and him being mine, to I think I'm probably— he's probably better off without me. Yeah. Um, yeah, the whole self-deprecation, self-loathing, which I've always struggled with my whole life, as well as, you know, uh, what, what could I possibly offer him? You know, I'm a mess, blah blah blah. And fortunately for me, I— that day I had to catch up with a really with one of my best mates. I'm very fortunate in that the close friends that I have, I'm able to— we're able to speak to each other about things that matter, um, you know, including mental health, things that we may be struggling with. And he, he was the one who said to me, I think you need— you've crossed the line and you need to get yourself some help. And I was like, I was like, oh, okay, what do you mean? He's like, well, you know, you might need to check in somewhere. And I remember going home that day and You know, kind of to top it off, I was recovering from a hip resurfacing operation as well at the time that I'd had, you know, probably I was probably 2 weeks into that recovery.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 12:03
Just a minor distraction.
John Milham (Host) · 12:04
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I hobbled home and I sat on the couch and I just, I was just, could feel myself sinking lower and lower into, into this depression and picked up my MacBook and jumped on and started to Google places and I stumbled across the Northside Clinic and called them up, explained the situation, and literally the next day I was sitting in the reception there with my bags.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 12:30
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 12:31
When I explained my situation to them, they were like, okay, you, you've gotta, you've gotta come in immediately. And yeah, that, and I think for me that was, it was such a massive turning point. Um, yeah. And all, and also very, very shocking and very Yeah, shocking to find yourself in that situation. But yeah, as I said before, really glad I did it. Probably the best thing I've done in a long, long time. Hard to get your head around, but once I got my head around it, I was just focused on doing the work. That's a little catchphrase that I have, do the work.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 13:06
Yeah, it all comes back down to that, doesn't it?
John Milham (Host) · 13:09
It does because it's, you know, The thing that I learned in the Northside Clinic was that this isn't something you fix while you're here and then you leave out the door and your life's perfect and off you go happily ever after. It just, it's a real wake-up call to realize that you're going to have to work hard on this for the rest of your life if you want to continue to move forward, if you want to be able to process your trauma. And I think, and I think when it comes to that sort of trauma, the best you can do is to be okay with it, to be, um, at peace with what happened and realize that You know, a lot of it wasn't your fault. And, and you know, and for me, that's still a daily struggle. I have good days, I have bad days, and it all comes back to, you know, for me on those bad days, leaning back on what I learned. Um, lean, you know, leaning on my friends, you know, even getting the chance to speak to you on this podcast that other people are going to listen to. For me, you know, when I saw your post, I was like, this is something I need to do. It was, it wasn't something I wanted to do. I felt like it was something I needed to do. To, to raise awareness, to break down the stigmas, to help other people with this if I can.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 14:16
I love that because, uh, you know, I, I, um, I have thoughts around lived experience, having my own walk, right? And which sounds quite similar in many ways. So the interesting thing about lived experience is, uh, you know, they're like life, there are stages and, you know, lived experience can be about recognizing that moment and resolving who you are now when you're faced with the reality of sitting in a waiting room, right?
John Milham (Host) · 14:41
Yeah.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 14:41
Yeah. And then, um, you know, accepting that process, uh, moving to some form of recovery, however that looks and feels for you. And then lived experience can, like you using the energy of trauma initially, lived experience can be the replacement fuel for moving forward and creating something. And I love that it leads to purpose. And it leads to passion about causes and helping and service, right? So that's one of the things I see in you. That's why I did. And that was gold you gave us there, that sense of doing the work, of putting it, of realizing that that was part of your life now. It wasn't something you could take a pill or get some medication for.
John Milham (Host) · 15:23
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's a, and you know, some days you don't feel like doing the work and And that's okay, but as long as you don't lose that understanding of having to do it. The whole doing the work thing for me is a, on most days is quite invigorating, you know, the introspection and the learning, you know, and there's a million resources out there, even just talking with my mate. Sorry for the interruption. This is Ian Westmoreland. I'm Mark, the founder of Katsuki Heroes, and thank you for listening to this story from one of our amazing heroes. Our mission is for these stories to provide hope and inspiration to people experiencing life challenges and to also educate the broader community on how best to provide support. If you would like to help us continue to produce more hero stories and cover more adversity themes, we would welcome all donations. These can be made by via our website kitsugiheroes.com.au. The donate function is at the bottom of the home page. We'd also welcome any feedback. You can email me direct using ian@kitsugiheroes.com.au. Now let's get back to the story.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 16:46
Your favorite resources, Twitter, towards the end, which is brilliant. And I love the word introspection, such an important word for this, for moving from being hit by the world to being in control of your own recovery. I think that's a massive one. So I'll call that out to the listeners, introspection, guys. We'll, uh, you know, uh, that's something we need to explore a bit later.
John Milham (Host) · 17:07
Yeah, it's a, you know, for me, that introspection thing, it, it, it's, it's pretty, uh, all-encompassing as well. You know, whether it's, it's taking a moment to reflect on how you reacted to a situation. You know, right up to, you know, working situations, situations in relationships. It's constantly going back and revisiting how you act and perform in those situations. Yeah.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 17:30
So Daniel Goleman, the father of emotional intelligence, talks about, you know, introspection is the foundation of emotional intelligence. And I think that's really a really important thing to consider. We start by looking at ourselves, right? And then realizing our impact in the world. Which, which was something you did. You, you mentioned like when you sat there and you had this realization, this isn't me, uh, or it doesn't feel like me, but who is me now? Right. You know, and then opened yourself up for that discussion with professionals and so on. But if I can, like what I was really impressed with Jason was you, you, you took us on a, you know, you had a, a stages, milestones of your journey to that point, right? Where trauma and then focus and work and relationships and so on. If we go right back to the beginning of that process, right when you were talking, when you're first remembering, clearly what you've mentioned, like trauma, a family that were isolated from their community and their supports and so on. Can you tell me, if it's okay, would you talk a little bit about what that trauma was like to experience at that time?
John Milham (Host) · 18:40
Various traumas from my childhood, I think. Um, obviously the biggest one I think was the hangover over my parents' relationship that, you know, me being born created.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 18:52
So you were picking up on that energy that, like, you were actually a catalyst for—
John Milham (Host) · 18:56
Well, from a very young age, I knew that I only had one set of grandparents and they were my father's because my mum was not in communication with her family. And I didn't meet her parents until I was 22 or 23, I think. So that was always a strange one. And I knew that from a very young age. Like I have memories of, you know, being one in particular of being with my mother in a store and she pointed out her mother to me and said, that's your grandmother. And I like that. I must have been literally 3 or 4, but that That memory to me, you know, 50 years later is clear as day. And I remember, you know, my little brain thinking, you know, oh, this is a bit weird. Why doesn't she come and say hello? Sort of thing. You know, so, um, you know, and then obviously as I get older, this, uh, you learn more about the story and all that kind of stuff. But then, you know, if, if throw in there some, you know, when I was sort of 8 or 9 being sexually abused as well by a family member. An extended family member, um, which again is— those memories are clear as day. Um, and they, uh, when, when I was in the Northside Clinic, I was diagnosed with PTSD from that. And the psych in there, once we'd spoken through it, she said, look, it's clear as day that you have PTSD from this and you've been dealing with it for a long time. And the worst thing about that for me is, uh, those I have flashbacks of that. So I can be doing literally anything and then all of a sudden just bang, it comes from nowhere. It tends to happen more when I'm not in a good place, but it literally ruins my day, ruins my week, ruins my month. It can send me spiraling. And look, you know, when it comes to that kind of stuff, you, again, it's something you're going to deal with your whole life. You Are you ever really gonna be okay with it? No, because there's a part of me that always wonders what would've, what I would've been like if that had never happened, which is an unanswerable question. You know what I mean?
Jason Higson (Guest) · 21:04
Yeah, absolutely. I wonder if we should be even asking the question. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 21:08
Yeah. But you know, for me it's a question I've always asked myself once I became aware of what had happened and what it meant and the impact. And you know, obviously moving forward when you read, read stories about victims of sexual abuse and how young children are sexualized in that way, the, the impact that it has on them moving forward, like, you know, their lives are irreparably changed and it leads to all sorts of problems. And I think for me, yeah, you combine that situation with relationship I witnessed between my parents growing up, pretty shitty at relationships. I've had a couple of long-term relationships, been married once, but they've never ended well. In relationships, I'm not good at communicating. My whole life up until, you know, I probably exclude the last 6 months because obviously coming out of the clinic, I knew a big thing for me was letting— being vulnerable and letting— being emotionally vulnerable and letting people get close to me, which is something that I've always been really, really bad at. So I've really— really been making an effort and doing a lot of work around that. And that was the worst thing for me. I, and I never really acknowledged it, but being emotionally vulnerable was the worst thing for me.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 22:18
How did your barrier present itself? What, what, what, what was going on for you when that happened?
John Milham (Host) · 22:23
Um, yeah, look, the only person that's ever gotten through my barrier is my son. That has never been a problem for me with him. That just happened naturally. My barrier presented in, you know, when things got emotionally difficult in relationships, I would shut down. You combine not being a good communicator and being emotionally stunted with a lot of self-loathing, and you don't have a very pleasant person to be around when things aren't going well.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 22:50
So your lack of safety kind of projected out to the world and made people didn't feel safe around you. Was that, was that something?
John Milham (Host) · 22:58
Yeah, I, I, I just don't think they felt emotionally cared for. Because I wouldn't, I would give nothing back. And I think part of it was probably not knowing how to because I was constantly protecting myself.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 23:11
Yeah. Yeah. All the resource going in the other direction.
John Milham (Host) · 23:14
Yeah. Yeah. There was always a, this self-protection thing going on, even though a lot of the habits or the behaviors that are displayed were self-destructive.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 23:24
Sorry. Did you know you were brok— you know, that bit was broken?
John Milham (Host) · 23:28
Yeah, yeah, I, I did, but I didn't know I'd been that way my whole life. A psych that I worked with for a long time, I think you might know him, Gunter Swoboda. So I worked with, worked with Gunter for about 10 years and he, he, he basically said to me after he got to know my background was, you know, you've been emotionally looking after yourself since you were about 10 years old and what you learned was to protect yourself. Because of the trauma you experienced, because of the parental relationship that you witnessed, your whole being went into making sure that you were emotionally not vulnerable. And he said, I'm covered head to toe in tattoos. And he said, even that I think is an armor that you put on yourself to keep people away from you.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 24:15
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 24:16
Wow. And the irony of it is it actually makes people ask more questions about you, right?
Jason Higson (Guest) · 24:23
It's like a puppy or a baby, isn't it?
John Milham (Host) · 24:25
You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 24:27
People are fascinated, right?
John Milham (Host) · 24:29
Yeah, yeah. But, you know, it was, it was interesting to hear him say that because, um, he also noticed— the other thing that he noticed was that the worse my mental health is, the longer my beard gets. Yeah, wow, wow. Which reminds me, I probably should give it a trim because I feel quite good at the moment.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 24:47
Getting tucked away a bit at the moment, right?
John Milham (Host) · 24:50
Yeah. Um, but yeah, yeah, the whole emotional vulnerability thing for me was, was just something I wasn't able to be for a long time.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 24:59
Now that you're like with the, the period you sat there and that, you know, this has come on, the introspection is clearly leading you to some understanding of, you know, what happened to you and how you reacted and where you want to go with that now, from, from my read. Forgive me if I'm making assumptions. But how do you feel about that change?
John Milham (Host) · 25:18
I feel really good about it, actually. I feel it took a lot to understand it, a long time, obviously, a lot of therapy, a lot of money, a lot of heartbreak, a lot of not so positive things to, to get to a point of understanding myself, you know, revisiting a lot of that stuff, dredging it all up and talking about it again. Isn't the most comfortable thing in the world. But at the, it was, you know, I used to finish some therapy sessions and just be absolutely exhausted, you know, emotionally, physically exhausted, dredging all that stuff. But at the time it doesn't feel, you know, progress doesn't always feel like progress and it doesn't always look like progress. It doesn't always look the same. But for me, that was all massive progress that at the time I probably didn't realize that I was making. And sometimes progress looks like a step backwards.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 26:10
Yeah, absolutely.
John Milham (Host) · 26:11
That's, that's really insightful, which is also a really hard thing to get your head around because at the time you're thinking, oh God, you know, I'm just, I'm spiraling here. But the fact that you're focused on it and you're actually doing something about it, it's actually progress. It just doesn't feel like it at the time. Um, so I guess that, that whole journey of me getting to a point where I feel like I can be emotionally vulnerable has been an absolute rollercoaster. I think if anyone thinks it's easy or it should be easy, then it's just, it's just not. And there is no way it possibly could ever be easy. You know, you're dealing with a lifetime of, as you said, lived experience and trying to piece it all together and trying to understand why you are the way you are. And also at the same time, recognizing for me that I can't continue to be like this. I can't continue to be emotionally stunted. I can't continue to eat my emotions. All those awful things that just lead to poor mental health.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 27:13
I, I love how you, uh, shared with us that at, at that momentum of getting on in life and, you know, hustling and breaking through and, you know, making a, a place for you in the world, uh, whether it's work or money or family or whatever. The fuel often was like that, the energy of trauma. Now that you've gone into a place where you are seeking your inner fuel and maybe, you know, talking about vulnerability and peace, what does your fuel look like now?
John Milham (Host) · 27:42
Yeah. Um, it's very, it's very different. It's a really good question. I got to a point where using that as fuel, I was just absolutely exhausted. And I remember saying to Gunter once, like, I can't continue. I'm, I'm I'm actually exhausted. I can't continue to live this way. So my fuel now, I think, is the satisfaction or the feeling that comes from changing my life and changing the way I approach things. I'm in a new relationship with a woman now where I'm so open and emotionally vulnerable with her that it's sometimes I just think to myself, who am I? Like, What have you done with Jason? You know, it's like, but you know, we, she's aware of my journey and she's so supportive and so willing to be part of my life and to help me. And it's a two-way street, you know, we, you know, I've had conversations with her about things that I've never had conversations about with about anyone. You know, I've been able to open up to her and I think that comes, look, that's a combination of, where I've gotten to in my life and the work that I've done, but also meeting someone like her that I connect with in a way that I feel like I can be open and vulnerable with her.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 28:59
Is that a bit of chicken and egg? You know, like you, you meet someone who promotes the work when you've done the work.
John Milham (Host) · 29:05
Yeah. Yeah. Look, it really is, you know, she, she's, she's doing work as well. Um, so, you know, we, we both have histories around mental health. Um, so we both understand what we're going through. And, you know, we have conversations almost daily about things. We check in with each other, how, how we're going, all that kind of stuff. So, you know, and I feel for the first time in my life with her that I have— I'm having a personal relationship with a woman who's not just my partner but is also my best friend. And I've, I've said that to her. I said, you know, you— I've, I've never been in a relationship before, I don't think, where I felt that the person that I've been with is my best friend, because I've never opened up to them before the way I would with a, with a really close friend. And look, it's not always comfortable. There are times where I've initiated conversations I didn't want to have, whereas in the past I would have not bothered and I would have probably would have tucked the feelings around those conversations away and let them fester and build into resentment, all that kind of stuff. And I've had, I've been involved in her with conversations she's initiated there in the past I would've completely avoided or I would've shut down because I didn't want to have that conversation.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 30:18
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 30:18
But I don't do that anymore and it, some days are easier than others, you know, but I feel like I'm getting better all the time.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 30:27
Well, I'm always fascinated when I hear stories of exploring another way of approaching our, you know, our, the challenges of our life, like you are sharing today so beautifully. And I just go, wow, the courage involved in doing that work, right? I can see it. You know, for all the people out there listening, I'm sure they're saying the same thing. Wow. Right. You just did some balls-out stuff.
John Milham (Host) · 30:51
Right.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 30:51
But, uh, why do we then classify it as weak? Right. Why are men in this sort of, you know, misunderstanding about, you know, vulnerability being something we should be putting down or avoiding?
John Milham (Host) · 31:06
It's just, you know, I have these conversations with my partner as well. It's like, It's the societal conditioning, you know, and it's horrific on both sides of the gender, you know, what women were traditionally told to be and what men were traditionally told to be is so, you know, I don't even have a word to describe how bad it is. It's just, it sets everyone up for abject failure, whether that's, you know, at various points in your life, whether it's with work, whether it's with relationships, whether it's with friends, whether it's, whether it's, you know, trying to find a work-life balance, whether it's, you know, feeling guilty about having hobbies while you have a family and a job. You know, it's, there are so many things. Yeah. I think I always like to say that from particularly my generation, but probably applies to all generations, we're just sold the dump from such an early age. You know, you're taught that you're born, you have this incredibly happy childhood, you go to school, you get a job, you meet a girl, you get married, you have kids, and life's just this massive fairy tale. So from the youngest age, you kind of skip through life thinking everything's going to be fine, and you quickly realize that it's not.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 32:17
Yeah, I was, um, it was like I always wondered, you know, about why the Brady Bunch kids never miss their other partners, right? So, you know, the kids never miss their mums and dads that weren't there. Right. Um, you know, very, very much fairy tale stuff. I used to, you know, love The Brady Bunch, and I think that was more about the gap between my, my life and theirs. Right. So fascinating stuff, mate. I really love that. Like the, the sense of you not even having a word to describe the problems created by our current approach to, you know, connection and relationships. And maybe I'd, I'd like to go down that a little bit, right? Because, uh, you talked about the, um, the dark place you got to with suicide and suicidal ideation. And if it's okay, can I sort of walk down that path a little bit?
John Milham (Host) · 33:06
Yeah, for sure. And look, I was, you know, in the lead up to talking with you today, I've had, you know, the last couple of weeks have been a bit up and down. And, you know, those ideations are still there and they're always, they're always going to be there. When I'm a bit low or I'm having some issues or some struggles, they pop up. You know, they've been pretty present the last few weeks again, just sort of, you know, lingering in the background again. And I just have to, I have to deal with that and recognize them for what they are because they're not gonna go anywhere. They're not, I'm just not gonna, I'm not gonna wake up one day and they're just never gonna pop up again. You know, I wish, I wish I could pay someone an amount of money and they would disappear, but I think that's involved in either in a bottle or a pill carton bottle. Well, yeah. Yeah, fortunately I've never had those struggles, which I'm really, really fortunate for. I've had friends that have and that's a whole other layer, but fortunately that's not my experience.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 34:03
So you talked about the last couple of weeks popping up. I used to, you know, Spotify came out with their sort of wrap-up for the year and I realized that my ideation is a bit like my favorite songs. Right, they're there all the time. Sometimes I feel like playing them, uh, they pop up, they play through. But I know now that that playlist can get tucked away. I, I, you know, if I, I don't need to, I can explore new music without having to go back to that playlist all the time.
John Milham (Host) · 34:32
So yeah, that's a good way to put it.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 34:34
Oh cool. It was just the sense like I'm, I'm not gonna— like it's, it's an option now, I can't take the option away, but I do have work done. So in some ways I feel even more prepared to, to, to keep suicide at bay because, you know, I have the processes when it pops up, I do it. Is that something you feel, you know, over the last couple of weeks, uh, obviously that comes up in response to challenges in life. How do you then recognize it and respond to it? What's your take on that?
John Milham (Host) · 35:07
Yeah, it's a good one and it's something That, that's probably the hardest part that I still struggle to deal with because it is such a, it's such a heavy thing, you know, the thought of taking your own life for whatever reason. For me, again, it's been a lot about understanding what that process looks like because, you know, my, my, me educating myself on that, I've come to realize that it is a process. I've had Uh, probably, probably 5 or 6 people that I, I've, that have been in my life over the past probably 5 years who have taken their lives, whether it's been, um, work colleagues or, uh, people that I train with in the gym or just people that I've met in music and all that kind of stuff. And it's, it's, uh, for, for me it's been understanding what that process looks like and, and trying to relate that to how I'm feeling at the time. So, you know, as I said, when I checked into the clinic, the thing that triggered it for me was the fact that my son was no longer the solid barrier that his presence had been previously. That had started to fade. So that for me was a trigger, like a warning to say, okay, things are getting out of hand here. Yeah, the last couple of weeks have been interesting. Because yeah, those, some of those, as I said, when I'm low, those feelings pop back up. But it is, it is for me always trying to, you know, take the temperature of how far it's gone. And for me, I know if I start to think about, if I start to think about ways and methods, then okay, we've gone a step, we've gone a step too far. We need to reach out and get some help. Yeah, that, that's what works for me is, is understanding. That journey or what that process looks like and reaching out where I need to can be tough at times as well.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 37:00
Absolutely. Suicide professionals talk about risk factors and protective factors. So, and, you know, life I think is, you know, anything at any time can be one or the other, right? Depending on our approach. So, uh, what, uh, do you know can, uh, in your world is a bit of a risk factor and What things do you think actually, you know, push the prospect further back?
John Milham (Host) · 37:25
Definitely when I feel low and past traumas pop up, that's definitely something that pushes the barrow further forward for me. You know, when I may be dealing with something and then that gets me to a place where I'm feeling low and then on top of that past traumas crash in, that really drives it forward. And when that happens, I really, I need to put a lot of energy into separating the two. And understanding that when I do, when I am feeling low, then, uh, it, things snowball. That, that's a big thing for me. When I'm good, um, and when I'm at the top of my game with my mental health, I'm able to keep everything at bay aside from the PTSD at times, which will crash in and ruin the party. But generally when I'm good, I can, I can manage to keep things at bay. It's when things, depending on the day, it could be something little. It could be something small. It could be an interaction with someone in my life that didn't go as planned and that could kick it off. Could be something at work. Just, it really just depends on where I'm at mentally. Yeah.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 38:31
And speaking of which, right? What do you know helps? What are your helping things? So you said, oh, I need to get some help when you get to a certain level. So what are those things? What do you get? What do you reach to for yourself and from others?
John Milham (Host) · 38:44
Leaning back on the stuff that I learned in the Northside Clinic is definitely a big one. So I've got all of the, the material from all of the sessions that I had in there. Acknowledging past traumas and, you know, continuing to do that work to be, you know, to, to say to be okay with them is a big step because I don't think you can ever be okay with them, but you can be, um, you can get to a point, I think, and I'm, I'm I think you'll always be working towards this point of acknowledging it. You're always processing it, but not trying not to let it get on top of you. And I think the biggest thing for me there is acknowledging that it wasn't my fault. And I think probably the biggest one for me is, as I said before, is not blaming myself for being born in a way, you know, when you, when you start to think back to the impact my birth had on my parents.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 39:36
Yeah, like you had a lot to do with it.
John Milham (Host) · 39:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but, but there's a psychology around that where, where, you know, if you look at it in a very black and white way, well, what was the thing that caused all that drama? It was me, right? Wow. Yeah.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 39:51
And you know, like it's a, you know, very, very, uh, open and honest of you as a, uh, baby to accept that responsibility. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 39:58
Yeah.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 39:58
But like not very helpful maybe.
John Milham (Host) · 39:59
No, no, no, definitely not. But I think, you know, as you, as you're growing up and you, you learn about the impact of that your birth had on other people's lives., you know, so many other people's lives. I think it's un— well, it's probably not natural, but for me it was a whole thing of going, well, shit, I caused all that. So now for me it's, it's acknowledging the fact that I may have been the catalyst, but it wasn't my fault. It was people's reactions to my birth, you know, and they, they chose to behave in that way. They, they could have behaved any way they wanted to, but they chose to behave in the way they chose to for a variety of reasons. A lot of them around the societal pressures of the time. You know, no one wanted to have a pregnant 15-year-old daughter. That was a terrible look. You know, as I said before, a lot of, I spent, spent a lot of my, of my life, you know, self-loathing, um, and having a, having a, a, an horrific internal dialogue towards myself. And, and that, yeah, which ties back to what we spoke about before around using that as fuel to drive myself. You know, a lot of my life I've been, I've played a lot of elite level sports around, you know, basketball and CrossFit and cricket and all sorts of stuff. And I had a session with Gunter where we started to talk about internal dialogue and stuff. And when I explained my internal dialogue to him, his jaw hit the floor. Like, he's like, I've never heard anyone play yourself that badly. Absolutely. Like, you know, especially when it came to sport.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 41:32
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 41:33
You know, I would be, and I've always been my own harshest critic, but particularly when it came to sport, I've always been a bit of a competitive animal, which is probably a bit of a good and a bad thing.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 41:43
Well, I think competition relates to protection, right?
John Milham (Host) · 41:46
You know, like, yeah, yeah. But his, you know, my internal dialogue has, was just brutal. Absolutely. You know, self-loathing, tearing shreds off myself in the harshest possible way. It's been a lot of work. I still find myself sometimes falling into that in situations where, where I, or particularly if I'm at the moment, because I'm recovering from this hip operation, I'm, can't do all the things I want to do, so I can't play basketball or, you know, do any of that stuff at the moment, but I can lift weights and I do that a lot and I find that creeping in a little bit when I do that. But, and I just, it's a, it's a really conscious thing I have to be aware of. So now when it happens, I just stop. You know, I have to stop what I'm doing and take a minute and just go, no, we don't do this anymore.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 42:29
So it's that intentional pause regulation.
John Milham (Host) · 42:32
Absolutely. It has to be, or else, or else it just continues.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 42:36
Or else you start to give yourself a hard time about giving yourself a hard time.
John Milham (Host) · 42:40
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's this, it's this weird, never-ending battle. You know, my mate said to me the other day, he goes, mate, you've had the hardest year. You just need to give yourself a fucking break. And I, and I was like, I get it, but. I don't really know how to do that. I'm still learning how to do that.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 42:56
So there's still work to do there.
John Milham (Host) · 42:58
Oh, always, always, always. You know, I'm some day, again, some days I'm better at it than others. Some days I can sit back and look at the year I've had and the things that I've gone through and be like, okay, let's just have a little rest on some things today. Take a minute. And other days I'm just like, nah, I can't do it today. I can't do it today. And I have to nego, and then I have to negotiate that minefield.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 43:18
So when you can't do it on a day, what do you do?
John Milham (Host) · 43:21
Just try and manage it, um, and just make sure that I don't immerse myself in it. Yeah, acknowledge that it's there and maybe curtail the activities to not put myself in a position where I'm going to do that to myself, which in itself is hard to do because when I, when I do things, I like to push myself, and a part of me pushing myself has always been tearing shreds off myself to get me, to get me there.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 43:46
So that feels like it's It's helping you and we probably understand that it's not so helpful after.
John Milham (Host) · 43:52
Oh, I, and I know that it's not. And I think I, even when I was doing it, I probably knew there was a part of me that it was a very short-term solution to get something done. And you're gonna, you know, you're gonna pay the price in the future for it because it doesn't build a very endearing picture of yourself in your own mind. Yeah.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 44:11
I love that idea you've just painted. Um, you know, you, you describe when you can't do it. What you do, and that's so cool. There's some, a lot of gold in that. But I love the idea when, if we reach back right to the start of the conversation when you talked about your grandfather and how he coped with that same kind of situation, there's a lot of, a lot of moving on from like locking yourself up in your room for a number of days and then drinking yourself stupid. So yeah, congratulations, family Iksen, right? Yeah. From moving on that, you know, and finding a, a way to keep going.
John Milham (Host) · 44:42
Yeah, it's just, you know, as I said before, it's from his generation to mine, the amount of resource that we have at our fingertips, you know, to go from his generation where he had literally nothing to mine where we have more than you can poke a stick at. And there's some great stuff. There's just, you know, even social media cops a lot of flak, but there are some great things on Instagram and some great stuff on Facebook that you can really tap into. That, you know, reinforce some really good things and can help you in a tough situation.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 45:12
On that note then, right, as we sort of, you know, come to winding up what is an amazing conversation, and I'm so, uh, inspired by your, by your approach to, you know, what you called the weight. Is that how you feel, you know, like when you're in that, you know, you've been carrying a weight?
John Milham (Host) · 45:31
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I feel like I've been carrying away my whole life and I'll, I'll continue to carry it, but hopefully it gets lighter. You know, I think, I think it's definitely gotten lighter in the last 6 months.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 45:41
Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. So now, you know, what is the best thing about, you know, as you lighten up, as you know, you sort of get more bounce back into and you face the next stage of life, mate. What is, uh, what's really great?
John Milham (Host) · 45:55
Um, I think one of the great things is actually understanding who I really am. You know, because I think when you spend your whole life not being emotionally vulnerable, you're not being who you could be or can be or are. So for me, it's, you know, I feel like I'm on this path now where I'm starting to understand maybe for the first time ever who I really am, what I can be, not just to myself, but to other people. The last 6 months has probably proven that to myself. In the early stages that I actually can be a really good partner for someone when I allow myself to experience the full spectrum of emotions. And when I express those emotions and when I express how I'm feeling, that's probably the best thing is it's almost like, it sounds a bit dorky to say or something, but you know, it's almost like a rebirth. Yeah. You know, um, I, I think that sounds perfectly reasonable to say. Yeah. Yeah. May, may. Yeah. I guess a journey of rebirth for me to understand what I, what I can offer and what I can be. Both to my son, to my partner, to my friends, to everything, which is weird. And I know that whatever that is, is going to be much better than what it has been in the past.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 47:04
I love that. Joseph Campbell has a thing called the hero's journey, Jason, and you step over that threshold accepting the challenge of the trials and tribulations, the life, the traumas that you've been through. You reach out, you get some magical aid, maybe the wizard Gunter and Northside Clinic and And then they talk about death and rebirth and then bringing that wisdom that is now part of you back to the people you love in the world. I feel like you've been on a hero's journey, my man.
John Milham (Host) · 47:33
Yeah, thanks. I hope so. Definitely, definitely. It's been a year for sure.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 47:37
Oh, it's been a year and it's been a life, mate.
John Milham (Host) · 47:40
And, uh, yeah, it, it really has. Um, and I look, I think an important thing for me was I got to a point where I was ready to change. I think, you know, I realized I, and it had probably happened a couple of years before that, but I didn't necessarily know how to do it. You know, I was, I was in a long-term relationship that was not functioning. That was probably bordering on codependent where I was spending a lot of my time in my own head and retreating from everyone. So yeah, to get to a point where you, where I had to say no. So much has to change here if I'm going to make it. Because I got to a point where I knew I couldn't continue on. It was going to go south really quickly. And by south, I'm saying, you know, the suicide ideations were probably going to win out in the end. Yeah.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 48:29
Well, I am so glad you found a path forward, mate. I would like to ask you the question, if Jason before all of this journey and, um, and reemergence and rebirth was listening, what would you, what would be the most important sort of one sort of piece of advice? I know there's plenty you'd probably say, but what would you tell him?
John Milham (Host) · 48:53
Oh God, there, you're right. There is so much, but I, you know, I think the overarching thing for me would be, it's gonna catch up with you. You can't outrun this. That's probably been the, you know, cuz like I said, I, I, I spent most of my life using this really negative energy as fuel to do what I needed to get done, to do the things I wanted to do, but also to run away from it. And that, that's been my biggest learning. And that's probably what— and look, I know it's not an overwhelmingly positive message to people, but it, it's been my reality. It's been my lived experience that it catches up with you if you don't work on this and you don't do what you need to do. To process and to move forward, it's going to catch up with you. It might not be today, it might not be tomorrow, but it will. And when it does, it will come down like a ton of bricks.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 49:45
Well, mate, it's a brilliant message. Doesn't need to be positive, just it needs to be the one they need. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 49:53
That's, mate, that honestly, that's the one that stands head and shoulders above everything else for me. And that's the, I guess that's the catalyst. I think that that should be the catalyst to change.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 50:03
And just very quickly, speaking of change, what does 2024 look like for you?
John Milham (Host) · 50:09
Given how 2023 went, it's going, it is going to be better. You know, I've got, obviously got a lot of things to work on coming out of this year. But yeah, just focusing on those things, continuing to do the work. That's the biggest thing for me, continuing to recognize good days and bad days, being really self-aware of how I treat myself, making time for myself when I don't feel well or when things get too much. And that could be anything. That could be, you know, it could be from a holiday to taking an hour to go for a swim at the beach, to sit in the sun and soak up some rays and just switch off. The work has many different guises.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 50:49
It sure does. That's great advice, my friend. And I wish you well for you and the family. Of course, you've got a million interesting things as well. So music and exercise and you're doing the work both yourself and with others. You're making a difference out there, mate. So I love that. Enjoy. It's been inspirational to hear your story and not because it's over, but because it's like you're stepping into vulnerable space here, and I really appreciate that. I know how hard it is, and I love that you're the role model you offer the world is so, so positive.
John Milham (Host) · 51:31
So I appreciate the opportunity to chat, John. And yeah, I think to sum it up, my, I think my journey's only just started, and I look forward to continuing and just hope, hope that people can get something out of this. And that would mean the world to me. That would, that would just make it all worthwhile. Happy to give back.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 51:48
I wish you, wish you all the best. And, uh, again, mate, Jason Heason, thank you so much, mate. You're an absolute hero.
John Milham (Host) · 51:56
Cheers, bro. Cheers, John. Appreciate it. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Please like and share the show to your friends so we can get this out to even more people. If you have a story you'd like to share with us, please reach out using the contact details below. And join us next week for our next hero's story. Until then, keep being you, and remember that we are all heroes in our own unique way. Only when it's broken, only when it's broken.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 52:38
When it hits you in the middle of the night and the truth burns so bright. Only when it's broken.
John Milham (Host) · 52:51
Only when it's broken.
Jason Higson (Guest) · 52:55
Take pride in those cries. It's only for tonight.
John Milham (Host) · 53:00
And then you rise. Only when you're broken. Only when you're broken. Only when you're broken.
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