Jillian Morris
A shark scientist who swam with her fear teaches thousands of children to see predators as neighbours, not monsters.
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Jillian Morris grew up in a small Maine town catching frogs in lakes and snorkeling in cold ocean water. At eight years old, she saw her first shark, a nurse shark in Florida, and the encounter stuck with her. She hunted through library books to learn more. Decades later, she chose to spend her life defending an animal most people hate without ever having seen one. The widespread fear and hatred of sharks, rather than love for them, became her reason to educate thousands of children about what sharks actually are.
Jillian moved to Bimini in the Bahamas, where she can see sharks nearly every day. She founded Sharks for Kids with her husband and friends to make shark education free and accessible to every student, regardless of where they live or their school's budget. Over 14 years, she has watched teachers in Bimini shift from refusing to enter the water to bringing entire school staff on field trips to experience sharks firsthand. She has seen children move from fear to curiosity in a single classroom visit. Some of those students now work as dive guides and shark researchers on the island.
Jillian does not ask people to love sharks. She asks them to understand that over 500 species of sharks play a critical role in keeping oceans healthy, and that healthy oceans sustain human life. She tackles the myths head-on: sharks do not hunt humans, they do not attack at the smell of blood, and culling them does not prevent incidents. She shows people, through photos and videos from her own time in the water, what a tiger shark's eye contact actually looks like. Education, she believes, is where real conservation begins.
“To be in the water with a large apex predator is something remarkable. And we are so lucky to even have a moment, right? Even a moment in their world. And I never want to lose that respect. And I never want to lose that awe.”
“I think when you have an opportunity to give something a voice, I think I felt compelled to do that and I was traveling. I was diving with them. I was sharing my photos and videos and my experiences and I realized just how powerful photos and videos can be.”
“Education is the heart of conservation. You need laws and legislation, but you need people to be educated to understand the problems, what is happening, and how they can help. That is where change happens.”
The hero, today
Jillian Morris spent her childhood in the water and felt drawn to sharks from the moment she saw her first one at age eight, which sparked a lifelong commitment to learning everything she could about them. The hatred for sharks in the wider culture drove Jillian to become their voice, because she realised that education and accurate information were the only way to shift people's fear-based opinions. Jillian founded Sharks for Kids to make shark education free and accessible to all students, regardless of where they live or how much money their school has, because she believes education is the heart of conservation. Over ten years of patient, consistent work in Bimini's schools, Jillian saw teachers and parents move from fear and refusal to genuine curiosity and support, showing that changing minds takes time but is possible. Jillian does not call for people to love sharks, but rather to understand their ecological importance and respect their place in the ocean, because an animal does not need to be cute or beloved to deserve protection from harm.
Yes. Jillian Morris is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Jillian Morris spent her childhood in the water and felt drawn to sharks from the moment she saw her first one at age eight, which sparked a lifelong commitment to learning everything she could about them.
The hatred for sharks in the wider culture drove Jillian to become their voice, because she realised that education and accurate information were the only way to shift people's fear-based opinions.
Jillian founded Sharks for Kids to make shark education free and accessible to all students, regardless of where they live or how much money their school has, because she believes education is the heart of conservation.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 00:00
I think some of the most amazing moments I've had are making eye contact, and it's not every species, but some species will look right at you. A tiger shark will look right at you. And to be in the water with a large apex predator is something remarkable. And we are so lucky to even have a moment, right? Even a moment in their world. And I never want to lose that respect. And I never want to lose that awe. And just to see, they are perfect. Everything about them is perfectly designed to be in that ocean habitat.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 00:37
Welcome to another episode of Animals and Us, where we explore and honor the awesomeness of animals and our relationships with them. Julian, welcome to Animals and Us.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 01:02
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to speak with you.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 01:05
I'm really excited about hearing from you and hearing about Uep, because where you live, as we've talked about before, is a place that's very special to me. So I'm really looking forward to hearing more about your, your life and how you ended up there. Can we start with your childhood. Where did you grow up and what was your childhood like?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 01:25
So I grew up in a really small town in Maine on a lake. So I was in the water a lot. I was, I grew up trying to catch frogs and snorkeling in the lake and just loving anything I could see or, or find in wildlife. And then luckily my parents loved the ocean and we were probably about at that point maybe an hour and a half drive from the coast. So we would go, we would go to the beach and I would go with my grandmother. I remember when I'd go stay with her. And then when I was 10, we moved closer to the coast, further south in Maine. And we were at the beach a lot. We, we spent a lot of time there and I crawled through tide pools, was obsessed with every snail crab shell I could find. And my parents just really supported that. So very lucky. That I got to experience the ocean from a young age and that I had parents that wanted to enjoy it as well. And then we would go to Florida every year for my dad's work. So then I got to go be in warmer ocean water and see a whole bunch of different animals and saw my first shark, which was a nurse shark, manatees, dolphins, and just, just absolutely obsessed with all of it. Just fascinated by it. And I remember my mom like pulling me out cuz I was like turning blue. I was so cold cuz the water in Maine is never very warm and just wanting to be in there and exploring and finding stuff and loving it so much. So yeah, it was definitely been a lifelong obsession.
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Over ten years of patient, consistent work in Bimini's schools, Jillian saw teachers and parents move from fear and refusal to genuine curiosity and support, showing that changing minds takes time but is possible.
This conversation includes eye contact with a tiger shark, growing up on lakes and maine beaches, the nurse shark that changed everything, choosing to defend animals people hate, photos and videos as a tool for change and no fear because of respect and knowledge.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 03:01
And was there a particular moment that sparked your fascination with sharks?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 03:08
Yeah, I mean, seeing a nurse shark, I was 8, we were in Florida, I was snorkeling. I'd also gotten in the water with manatees, which was insane. I mean, people, I think now it's really easy to do, but back then for a kid from a tiny town, and when I say tiny, it was 400 people. I mean, a very, very small town, very rural, and people just didn't really go do that or see those animals. And so the fact that I got to go do that, and I remember the manatees were incredible, and then just seeing a nurse shark and being so excited, and then Immediately wanting books, right? And I, I still have a manatee book I bought that year. Like I still have it. And trying to find shark books at the library in a small town in Maine to try and learn more. 'Cause that's what you did. You went to the library. We didn't have the internet and all of that. So it was get books at the library to learn encyclopedias and just to learn more about that shark and kind of feed that que— like that curiosity. I just wanted to know more. What is this animal? I didn't know much about it. Now I really wanna know. And we did our best to, to find some books so that I could start on my journey of learning more about these animals and, and not just that species, but all of them. And that really, I think, just really sparked something. I'd always loved the ocean. I told my parents I wanted to be a marine biologist when I was 5, and I still have a drawing that I'd done. My mom had blown up and printed. I think I was 8 or 9, and it's just all these ocean animals. And so I just, I loved it. And, but that moment I think was just so special and has stuck because I'd never seen anything like it. And it was so different than my, most of my ocean encounters. And it really just sparked something in me like, I need to know more about this animal.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 05:04
Yeah. Yeah. And now you do know so much, of course, about sharks. What is it in a nutshell? If you can put it in a nutshell, what is it about sharks that you love?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 05:16
I think in my experience was as I was getting older and learning more and having more experiences with them, people were saying to me, do you have a death wish? Aren't you afraid? They're monsters. And it, it was so much negative and my experience wasn't that. And so I wanted to educate myself as much as possible because if you wanna have conversations with people or you wanna change their minds, You need to be informed, right? You need to be educated. And so I think just the fact that people hate these animals, absolutely hate them, not just afraid. And these are people that have never seen the ocean and have never been in the ocean. And to have that much hatred for something, just was like, I think determined to do something different than that. And how can I change that conversation? Um, I like a good challenge. I'm stubborn and I just, everything I found out about them and every time I went in the water and got to see them or tag one and just learned more and more, it was just so remarkable. And it still fascinates me. I've never become bored. I'm always learning new stuff. On a whole, scientists, we're learning new stuff about sharks all the time. And so I'm just completely in awe and fascinated by them. And, and so that has never ever gone away.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 06:40
So you— did you— would you say that you chose— you chose to champion sharks because they— because they were hated and you really wanted to be a voice for them and help defend them?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 06:52
Yeah, I think when you have an opportunity to give something a voice, I think I felt compelled to do that. And I was traveling, I was diving with them, I was sharing my photos and videos and my experiences, and I realized just how how powerful photos and videos can be. And so being able to share that with people and, and help people see it a little bit different, or at least be open to the idea, right? Not so dead set against something that they've never even seen and they have such a strong opinion on and they have no experience.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 07:24
Yes.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 07:25
Yes. I, I just, that I don't understand. Maybe that's part of human nature. I get, I get people being afraid of the ocean and afraid of things they don't know, and the ocean's vast and, and mysterious and But the hatred part of it, I never understood. And so what can I do? How can I share my experience and give them a voice? And that was really, I think, what compelled me. And still the work I do is, is constantly trying to give these animals a voice, be a better PR team, right? They need a better PR team and talk about facts and data instead of the misinformation and the fear. Like, let's focus on some sharks can glow, some can jump out of the water, some have incredible tails and camouflage. Let's focus on all the amazing stuff, right? Instead of fixating on bites that are rare and the fact that they have teeth. Well, lots of animals have teeth, so I don't know why we're so focused on those teeth in particular.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 08:26
Yes. So when you are swimming underwater with sharks, what do you see in them that most people, as you say, most people never experience?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 08:36
I think some of the most amazing moments I've had are making eye contact, and it's not every species, but some species will look right at you. A tiger shark will look right at you. Okay. And to be in the water with a large apex predator is something remarkable. And we are so lucky to even have a moment., right? Even a moment in their world. And I never want to lose that respect and I never wanna lose that awe. And just to see they are a perfect predator. Everything about them is perfectly designed to be in that ocean habitat and to survive. Sharks, some form of shark has been around for over 400 million years, right? Even if you're afraid of them, I feel like you have to appreciate how incredible that is, um, and the adaptations they have and how unique and diverse they are across species. So, um, every, every moment— and I spend a lot of time in the water with them— but every moment I'm grateful and I'm, I'm really in awe of, of what they are, what they can do, and thankful that I even have a moment in that world with them.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 09:47
So you just said a moment ago that you're in the— have been in the water and have eye contact with a tiger shark. Does fear ever enter your mind at that stage? Because aren't tiger sharks known to be aggressive?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 10:02
I think, I mean, a lot of my diving situations too are, we have a lot of dives here in the Bahamas that are baited. The sharks are brought in, divers come here to see them. The Bahamas is the shark diving capital of the world. More people come here to see sharks than anywhere else. And so yes, is it a different situation when I know it's tiger shark and I know that one and she comes up? Versus being out in the open ocean swimming or spearfishing and a, and a shark comes up. Yes, it is different. Um, but even when I've had moments with sharks that weren't anticipated, weren't baited, that was just Mother Nature, simply, you know, a beautiful moment. I don't have fear because I've spent a lot of time with them. I'm giving them space, not trying to bother them. I'm making eye contact so that they know. Many species are ambush predators. I'm making eye contact so they know I see them.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 10:55
All right.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 10:55
So I'm not making myself act or look like prey. I'm also a big predator in the water as though I'm taking up space. And, and, but it's reading body language too, you know, and, and being mindful of if behavior does change and, you know, making good choices about when to be in the water, what else is happening, the conditions. Okay. And I think keeping all of that in mind, and I enter the water with that all the time, and I also enter the water knowing that I'm going in their house, I'm going in their home. Yes. And that's a choice that I am making. And that's a risk I'm willing to take. So, and again, bites are very, very rare, but every time we go in the ocean, we have to realize we are going into a space that is the home, the house for so many species. And we are making that choice to go in there. And, and I think when people forget that or forget respecting the animals that are there, we, you can't ever lose that respect. And I think you should always hold that in your mind of, of what you're doing.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 12:00
Respect. Yes. Yes. Gillian, you live in one of my favorite places in the world, on the, in the Bahamas, but on the island of Bimini. And as I mentioned to you when we had an, a, a chat earlier, that Bimini actually changed my life because it was there, it was the first time that I'd ever sailed and I was nearly 40, in my late 30s, and it was the first time I'd ever sailed because I'd always lived inland and it absolutely changed my life. So could you tell us, I went to the Bahamas to swim with wild dolphins, I went to Bimini to swim with wild dolphins, can you tell us about some of the sharks that live in your area, in the oceans in your area?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 12:40
Yeah, Bimini is really special. Um, it's the closest Bahamian island to the US. It also sits right next to the Gulf Stream. And so you get these upwellings and this current and, uh, a lot of nutrients. And you also have mangroves, seagrass, coral reefs. So you have these incredible ecosystems. So it supports a lot of life. And we have a lot of different species here in Bimini. The Bahamas has 40 or so, um, species of shark, but some of the regular ones we see here are lemon sharks. Caribbean reef sharks, nurse sharks, bull, great hammerhead, tiger, blacknose, blacktip. And, and so different times of year, winter, we tend to have more of the species, but they're here year round and in different locations. So it's, it's a really special place because on any given day you can just go see sharks and we see them every single day. No, I'm just walking on the beach or walking around the marina. Or choosing to dive or go to snorkel or whatever. But yeah, we see sharks every single day. And so to me, that's paradise and it's why I'm here. It's why I've built a life here and, and raising my daughter here to be able to have access to all of these incredible ecosystems and the wild dolphins that are here as well that are really incredible. And I was out on the dive boat yesterday and the dolphins swam by. They didn't come join us underwater with the sharks, which is really cool when they do. But we at least got to see them before we went in the water. So incredible turtles and just, you know, seahorse in the mangroves. Just really, really special. And there's just so much life here. And so I think it's just a really wonderful place. And like you had that moment, I think a lot of people have that and I've certainly had so many of them and it's why we spend most of the year here.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 14:27
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is a very, very special place. Could you share with us some of your most memorable experiences that you've had in the water with sharks?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 14:35
The absolute most amazing one was I got to see a lemon shark give birth. And lemon sharks give birth to live babies that are connected to them with an umbilical cord. So mom will swim up as close to the mangroves as she can get, almost beaching herself in the shallow water. She goes back to the mangroves she was born in to give birth.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 14:55
Oh, wow.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 14:56
And the pups come out one at a time. They're connected. They have to spiral and break free of that umbilical cord, which leaves them with a little shark belly button, which is one of my favorite facts. And, and I love sharing that with kids. Kids, and then they're kind of groggy, and then it's like someone flips a switch. They're a shark and they immediately head into the mangroves. They seek shelter, food, all of that. To see something start its life and to see something that people think is just this massive animal and its teeth and it's big to see it so small and vulnerable and starting its life. There's no paternal care, right? Mom and dad are not taking care of these little ones at all. So they are on their own. Oh, they're fully developed, fully capable. Right. But yeah, to see something that everyone thinks of as just being this powerful, strong predator, so vulnerable and so small, um, is yeah, the most amazing thing I've seen in the water. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Um, I will never forget that she had 10 pups and just, yeah. Um, I'll never forget that. And then I would say also my daughter getting to snorkel with her first shark was really special. It was like living it my first time again, my first seeing these animals. And she got to swim with wild dolphins last summer when she was 4 and having that moment for her. And I don't swim with the dolphins very much, so I forgot how amazing it was. And, and so my focus tends to be on sharks and, and so I was like, oh, just so incredible and the joy on her face and yeah, and the dolphins just came right to us and I think they know they, you know, they had little ones, we had a little one and just this really beautiful moment. And I think I have a lot of those now, even moments I've, I've seen the same animals hundreds of times, but now watching her see them for the first time or even second and third is those moments are really, really special, and I love getting to feel that with her and share that with her.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 17:00
Yes, that excitement. Sharks protected in the Bahamas and around Bimini.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 17:05
Yes. So since 2011, the Bahamas declared a shark sanctuary. It's illegal to target, catch, kill, um, possess, uh, shark parts, sharks. And so the Bahamas had banned longlining in the 1990s, which is a really detrimental fishing practice, and said, nope, we're not allowing that here. And, and then I think realizing the economic value and the environmental value. So sharks balance the food chain, make sure ecosystems are healthy. But when I mentioned it's the shark diving capital of the world, people come to the Bahamas to see sharks and they spend money. They rent an Airbnb, they rent the taxi, uh, you know, get in a taxi, they stay at a local hotel, they go to the bar and restaurant. It's not just the dive shop that benefits, it's the community. And especially a small community like Bimini. Yes. The community really is, uh, is benefits. And so the Bahamas realized that, you know, nearly $114 million US annually comes into the economy because of sharks. So yeah, they realize the value both environmentally and economically, and they've protected that. And so these animals can thrive here, but unfortunately the migratory ones don't stay. They don't, you know, they don't understand, oh, well, I'm safe here. I'm just— instincts driving them to other places. But at least during that portion of their life or whatever part of the, their migration or life history they spend here, they are protected.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 18:35
Great. You founded an organization called Sharks for Kids. Can you tell us about that, about, about why and what you set out to do through the organization?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 18:45
Yeah. So my mom is a retired science teacher. And when I came out of school, a lot of my friends were teachers. And so I started, I was doing research and traveling and I'd been to Australia to work with tiger sharks. And so they would say, oh, Kate, can you come talk to my class? This is so cool. And share some photos and videos. And I was like, yeah, this is amazing. And I would do that and everyone would say, oh, do you have a worksheet or something else that I could have the students do after or something you recommend? And I went, I don't. That would be really cool though. Yeah. And so I talked about that for a while and I went, okay, everyone keeps asking me this. Maybe I should create that. And so I talked about it for a while. And finally, when I turned 30, I kept talking about it and my husband looked at me and went, why don't you just do it? Why don't you start an organization? And I was like, oh yeah, maybe I should. And so I said, well, you're doing it with me. He's an incredible, he's an Emmy award-winning cinematographer, so much video footage. Incredible graphic designer. And then, um, my best friend had just finished his PhD in Australia on tiger sharks and turtles, and he was doing a lot of school visits. So I said, right, you're going to do this. And we went, oh, well, all of us are scientists. We know nothing about running a business. So we got our other friend who'd run several businesses and had an idea about all of that stuff and what we felt like we had no clue on. And so we worked on a website for a year. I did a lot of research into what schools would want, standards, what needed to be in the content, all this stuff. And we spent a year building it, um, and then launched the website in November of 2013. And it was just really the belief that every time I went into a classroom, I felt inspired. Kids gave me hope, even if they were 5, 10, they wanted to be part of something. They were excited about animals. They hadn't been inundated with all this misinformation. And so I really wanted to capture that and encourage that and support that. So making sure they had access to resources because I didn't find access to resources. And now, right, the world is at our fingertips, but I wanted to make sure it was in a place and encourage teachers no matter where they live, landlocked or coastal, that the ocean is important for all of us. We need it. It's the heart of our planet. And part of that is protecting sharks, protecting ecosystems, but I'm gonna use sharks to create global citizens and inspire and help students understand how it's all connected and, and change the conversation from fear to fascination. And, and so that was really why I wanted to do this. And I wanted to make it free and accessible. I didn't grow up with a lot of money, so doing special programs and things like that wasn't accessible for me. So I wanted to make sure that there is never a financial barrier for students having access to what we do. And that's not just on the website. The materials are all free. We do classroom visits as well. We take students out in the field to see sharks, to tag sharks, and all of that is free. And so there's no barrier financially for students to have access to this or schools or teachers. And that was a big part of it, just because I think education is is desperately needed for conservation. It is the heart of conservation. You, you need laws and legislation, but you need people to be educated, to understand the problems, what is happening, and how they can help. That is where change happens. And so if you start kids young, they grow up with facts and they make better choices and they do better than our generations have done. And that gives me hope. That's You know, honestly, the world is, there's a lot happening in the world that's bad and devastating. But when I see my daughter get excited about a shark or tell a friend about a shark and, oh, sharks aren't monsters. To hear my 5-year-old say that and telling adults that, I am very proud. I love it. I'm not coaxing her to say that. I'm not like, say that, you'll impress them. She's doing that on her own.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 22:49
Yeah.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 22:50
Are sponges, right? They soak stuff up. So if we give them facts and the correct information, then they grow up— the things they buy, the way they vote, the careers they pursue, all of that. We're thinking long term, but it starts when you're a kid, and it starts— that's how you can really see an impact and make change.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 23:12
Absolutely. I have a past in humane education. I used to be a humane educator, so I'm totally on board and totally understand where you're coming from. Have you seen a shift in children who you teach? Have you seen a shift in their attitude from the start of your program to the end of your program towards sharks?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 23:36
Absolutely. We have visit— like our team, we have a team of volunteers all over, and I love getting messages that kids will say to them, or at the beginning kids will be like, if you ask her, is anyone here afraid of sharks? And, you know, kids are raising their hands and you're like, oh man, You're so young. Like, how are you already so afraid? And then by the end, they're excited, or I want to study sharks. I want to see a shark. And, and so even just in a 30 or 40 minute conversation, it's, it's changing, or I didn't know sharks could do that, or wow, this is so interesting. And then I think of programs here. We've been running programs here in Bimini for 14 years, 15 years. And we started doing the field trips. None of the teachers wanted to go out with us. They, it was like, nope, the science teacher has to go. They have to chaperone. This is a science thing. And about 3 weeks ago, we took the entire staff from the high school and, and a couple of the teachers and the principal from the primary school. So it's a small island, but they all went out to see the field trips that we go on. And I thought that was really incredible because it took, we've done it a few years now, but it took about 10 years of taking the students with that one science teacher to change that. And Parents stop me in the street and say, my kid won't stop talking about sharks. Great. I love that. Sorry, not sorry. And we have the dive shop that we partner with here, the local dive shop. Um, there have probably been 5 or 6 students that went on field trips, listened to me year after year, talk about sharks in the school that now work for the dive shop. They're shark feeders, they're dive guides. Um, one of 'em's the first female Bimini scuba instructor, and they have these incredible careers. And you know, were exposed to something and maybe a different conversation because of that and what they heard us talk about. And now they're doing that. So yeah, we are seeing an impact. It does make a difference. And also showing kids what's possible is, you know, growing up in a small town in Maine, I remember the guy that came in and brought bats and owls, right? It was very exciting. They were, it was a rehab place, but it was a man. It was always the TV shows. It was men. It was men. It was men on the animal shows. And, and so my mom got me a book at a yard sale and Sylvia Earle was in it. And I was like, there's a woman that's in the ocean. And so seeing a woman doing something, I didn't really know much about it, but I certainly didn't see women doing it. And so when kids can, are exposed to something, um, and, you know, and our team members are from all over because I also believe You know, and when we have the field trips, I try and have the staff that are from here go with us because I think representation really matters as well. Like somebody that looks like me, sounds like me, that's doing this. And so I think that's really important. So, you know, our volunteers do work in, and projects and programs all over, and I think that's really important too. So, um, and I mean, I'm, I'm not from here, but I've, I've been in the Bahamas on and off for about 20 years. And so yeah, it's, it's really, really special.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 26:42
So absolutely.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 26:43
The programs, the conversations, the talks, the experiences are making an impact. We see it every day. Every time we run programs, we're seeing the impact it's making.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 26:54
Wonderful. It must be very satisfying.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 26:56
It is. Gillian, let's talk about—
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 26:58
that's really special. Let's talk about some of the misconceptions around sharks, cuz sharks are probably one of the most misunderstood animals on Earth.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 27:07
Would you agree? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. There's so much, you know, as, We live in a time now that we have all the information in the world at our fingertips, right? But it doesn't mean it's correct information. And still there is so much this idea that they're monsters, they're man-eaters, you can't go in the water. If you get a cut and they smell blood, they're gonna come get you. And it, it's just, it's not true. And we know it's not true. And bites are always very unfortunate, right? It's, it's super sad, but It's rare. It's very, very rare. You know, 5 to 10 people die from shark bites in the world each year, and that's not in one location, that's the world. And there are so many things that are far more dangerous, other animals that are far more dangerous. But when a bite happens, whether there's a fatality or not, it's on every news station over and over and over and over again. Yes. And We had an incident happen here in Bimini and the amount of incorrect information about what happened was— I mean, not— I shouldn't say shocking, but shocking because it's always incorrect and they're never going to correct it because the correct story of what happened isn't as exciting, right? Not as many people click that link to read it. And what happens is sharks get blamed and then the island and the community suffer, even though people made a poor choice in this situation, did something they shouldn't have. And all the misinformation then months later— like, I had a video of a shark dive and somebody was like, this is why those girls got bit. And I'm like, has nothing to do with any of this. And now you're just— you're spewing more misinformation and it's just snowballing. And so I think— but Yeah. So that one incident that's in 1,000 papers, 1,000 links, 1,000 headlines. Yeah. It's easy for people to go, it happens all the time, happens everywhere. It's happening all the time. No, it's not. It's very, very, very rare.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 29:13
Yes. As, as you would've heard in Sydney, Australia this last summer, there have been several attacks and some people respond to those attacks by calling for Bashar cull, encouraging shark killing on a large scale. What, what, what would you say to those people who call for shark culling?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 29:35
There's no— nothing's going to benefit from that. Nobody's going to benefit. The ocean, the people. I understand to lose somebody, people want an answer, they want a solution, they want closure, revenge, whatever the emotions are happening. And so feeling like that's a solution, but it's not. And typically when they go out, if they're putting in drum lines or lines and putting bait in, you're attracting more sharks in. So the thing that you don't want in that area, by doing that, you're attracting more. And chances are the incident that happened, that animal's not even in the area, right? It's gone. So to then go and kill all these other animals, and typically what we're talking about when bites happen are tigers, bulls, and white sharks, right? And you're probably talking about, in most cases, adults breeding individuals. So now, and if you're talking about like a migratory species, right? So you take that tiger shark or you kill, they kill 10 tiger sharks because an incident happened and they think it was a tiger and they killed 10 tigers. That tiger shark that was in that part of Australia that migrates somewhere else. Now every single ecosystem that tiger shark was part of in its migratory route is impacted. Okay, so, and it's affecting that. So, I get the pain, the hurt. Yes, okay, extremely unfortunate. It is. It's a terrible situation for everybody. But killing the animal suspected isn't going to solve it. And so, you know, understanding more and thinking about other ways that humans can have, you know, people want to go in the water. Okay, so what are some non-lethal methods? Nets are lethal. They kill a lot of other animals, right? Yes. You always see animals getting tangled. Drum lines are attracting sharks to the area. And so I think a lot of scientists have been trying to find these non-lethal methods to keep sharks out so people can swim and have that. But if you think about it, that's us deciding that we, we are owning that space.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 31:43
It is.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 31:44
And I, I mean, obviously humans develop wild spaces all the time. And so, yes. Yeah, we're crowding animals out. We're changing how fish move. We're affecting how animals behave. And when you think about all of that, you know, a lot of these times these incidents are happening, there's, you know, nobody wants to say, well, it was caused by this, but a lot of times there are explanations of, of what's happening and, and certain behaviors. Not always. Sometimes it's we don't know why it happened, but a lot of times there are explanations. And, but the answer of, of going out and culling these animals is never, is never gonna solve that or, or do anything other than you went and killed the sharks.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 32:28
Yes. Yes. So what would, what solution would you advise? Would it just be more about risk mitigation, about ways of, of increasing our safety when we are sharing the ocean with sharks?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 32:43
Yeah, I think making informed decisions about when you go in the water. Dawn and dusk, animals are active, they're hunting, they're feeding. If people are fishing and there's bait in the water, don't go in and swim right there. Areas where seals and sea lions are swimming and people are surfing, right? It's, you know, making those choices. I think having that information, there's also areas where they've put in buoys that can monitor movement and things like that. Drones, flights that alert, like, to apps to alert people. Also, I know there's been some work on magnetic barriers because the electroreceptors of sharks are, in some species, are very sensitive to magnets. And so having these natural barriers like kelp, they look like kelp, or different things to actually keep the animals out in those areas, anything like that. But education's a big part of it too. I think education's a huge part of it. And it also goes back to you make a choice and like you talk to a lot of surfers who surf in areas where there are white sharks and they know they're going in the water. They're making that choice. And because they understand the ocean, they love this activity, they want to do it, but they're aware of the risks. Um, and, and a lot of times surfers are also the ones that when something happens, they're not the ones pushing for retaliation. It's other people. Yes. I got to dive with a guy that lost his leg to a tiger shark while he was surfing in Hawaii, and he's now a huge advocate for sharks and has spent years now advocating for them and how amazing they are. So here's somebody that really does have a reason to not like sharks and to be afraid. And he's a huge voice for them. I, you know, it usually isn't in that situation because surfers are aware of the ocean, they're connected to it. A lot of times it's other people that are calling for that.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 34:38
Yes. Gillian, is it true that sharks actually don't like the taste of, of humans, or is that another myth? I've heard that they just like a bite but don't necessarily plan to eat because we don't actually— not very palatable for sharks.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 34:53
Yeah, it's— I mean, if you think about it, we're not something they encounter a lot, right? We're not a regular food source for them. And when bites happen, if you think about the things that are on their diet, their regular diet, which is incredibly diverse, right? Sharks— tiger sharks, for example, eat turtles, sea snakes, birds, other sharks, right? We're not like any of those things. And so when a bite happens and they let go, squishy human skin. Yeah. Sharp teeth. It's not a great combination, but, and that's why it is, is so rare. And I always tell people like, we are very lucky. We go in the ocean and millions of people go in the ocean every single day. Bites are very, very, very rare. And yes, this idea that, oh, they can smell a drop of blood from miles away and we're gonna come get you is just nonsense. Do they have an excellent sense of smell? Absolutely. Could they smell human blood? Absolutely. We smell a lot of things every day. That doesn't mean we're gonna eat them. Like a big thing of garbage that stinks. We're not going to chow down on that. Well, we can smell it. I always tell kids that just because you can smell something doesn't mean you're eating it. And, and so we have to give these animals a little bit more credit that, you know, but also if your food normally runs away from you or swims away from you in this case, and you're gonna bite first, ask questions later. And typically they're rolling their eyes back or their nictitating membrane is coming up. So they're, they're blind in that moment. They grab it because they're gonna take advantage of that moment, which is a possible meal, right? And, and then they let go. But sometimes the injuries are substantial just simply because of the size and the power of that animal and our bodies not being particularly indestructible. You know, we're pretty, we're pretty soft and squishy. So yeah, it's just, it's an unfortunate— when those moments line up, it's an unfortunate situation. But yeah, it's, it's, again, it's, it's super rare. And I think people need to remember that and think about how many millions of people go in the ocean every single day around the world.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 36:56
Yes, yes. And not attacked. Gillian, where, where does the fear, our, our very deep and very widespread fear of sharks come from? Is— can we blame it all on the, the Jaws movies, or is it— was it more primal than that?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 37:11
I think it's a bit of both. I think it was primal in that it's human nature to fear things we don't understand. The ocean is big. If people don't know how to swim, it's deep. These animals live down in the deep part of the ocean that we don't even have any, you know, still species being discovered. And so I think the vast unknown is a primal fear. Also. A primal fear to fear big animals, right? Run away from the big animal. And, and so I think a lot of that is very natural, but when then media takes that natural feeling and it's kind of fans the flame and adds to it, but then people, people go see monster movies, they go to haunted houses, like people like going roller coasters. That sense of fear. Yeah, exactly. So clearly there's something in that part of the psyche as well. And there's movies with big dinosaurs, big snakes, big alligators, and like your beautiful whale in the background. There's not really a movie about a monster whale that's eating people, right? It's the animals that we've decided are scary because they have teeth. They look different. They're not cute and cuddly by our definition. Right. You know, there's no, movies with koalas attack, right? It's, it's because they're cute and cuddly. Oh, and we need to help them because they're cute and cuddly. Or dolphins. Oh my gosh, they look how cute and beautiful they are. And we need to stop that. An animal does not have to be cute as we define it to want to help it and protect it. Be precious. Um, yeah, it, and to be valuable. And so I think then you put a movie like Jaws, which at the time they were fishing in those areas. Scientists were studying white sharks because fishermen were catching them and they were getting to study them and cut them open and dissect them and learn. And so they were catching them and it was a prize and right. And here we are, we are, we're triumphant over the ocean beasts and all of that. Yes. And so then you create a movie where there's this really big shark and it's lurking off the beaches. And you know, that was something that a lot of people went, ooh, that could happen. But then this hysteria of people not even going in a swimming pool and long after and still, well. And now all these other ones, the, I don't know, 47 Meters Down or whatever that one is that they go diving in the cage, and they're very realistic parts of that. So, um, you know, a monster movie that's so unbelievable, okay, nobody's really gonna bother with that. But when you have aspects of it that are very realistic, which these movies did, then people start to— it starts to play with the mind and it really starts to kind of almost like justify those feelings. Like, see, I told you sharks were scary. I told you the ocean was dangerous. And that, right, that supports that feeling. And then it's the headlines in the news. It's all these things and misinformation. And if you're constantly bombarded with that and somebody supports your belief and your fear and you feel acknowledged in that, it just perpetuates it. And then you have generations of people That yes, a movie made them terrified of the ocean and sharks. Yes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 40:25
So, well, thank, thank goodness you and your daughter are changing that attitude and that, that cycle. Gillian, what is one thing you would like the audience to better understand about sharks?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 40:40
That there's over 500 different species. They're diverse. They're from the size of my hand to, you know, 15, 16 meters in length. And they're weird, they're wonderful, and no matter what they are, they play an important role in balancing the oceans and it's the health of our oceans and the health of the populations of the other animals in the ocean. And healthy oceans, no matter where we live, are part of our life. We have to have them. They are the heartbeat of our planet. Yes. And sharks are part of that. And so I think everyone needs to know that. And you don't have to love sharks, right? But you can understand that they have a place, right? I don't love spiders, but I understand their importance, and I'm not doing anything to actively harm them. I got bit by a spider. I'm not really psyched.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 41:30
It was a—
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 41:31
it was sore, it was horrible, but I'm not now going out and killing spiders because I still understand their place. Yeah, I don't love them. You don't have to love an animal to understand it needs its importance. And to leave it be. Yes. You don't have to want to dive with them, study them, see them, anything, but you can respect them and respect that they have a place. And that's what we need more people to do, is I don't need everybody to love sharks. That'd be wonderful, but I do need people to respect and understand their place and that they have value. And to change that fear narrative and use that fear narrative to justify killing of critically endangered species or, you know, wherever they're listing, killing just to kill because of that fear and that hatred. And I'm not talking about people fishing to feed their families, right? That's an entirely different story. People fish, they feed their families. I'm talking about killing an animal just because of fear. Yes. And so to change that narrative, I think is, is a really, really important and the one that education can work towards. Yes. But just changing the narrative as a whole, and all of us can be part of that. We can all play a part in that.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 42:42
Yes. Gillian, if people would like to learn more about your work with Sharks 4 Kids, how can they reach you? How can they find you?
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 42:51
Yeah, so our website is sharks4kids.com. You can contact us through there. Um, we're very active on our social media pages, so we post a lot of shark videos and facts and content and fun crafts and activities and all sorts of stuff. You can book a lesson. So if anyone's listening and, and you know kids, your friend's a teacher, your parent's a teacher, you know, you know somebody, um, and we do virtual lessons year-round all around the world. So we connect with students. We've connected with students in over 80 countries. So we offer lessons in French and English and Spanish.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 43:26
Great.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 43:26
And so, yeah, so that's the best way you can kind of access all the information, learn more, see what's going on right through the Sharks for Kids website.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 43:35
Great. Thank you very much, Gillian. And one day I hope to meet you in person and come back to Bimini. When I was there in Bimini, a hurricane struck. I didn't actually achieve my dream of swimming with wild dolphins in the Bahamas, but after the hurricane passed, we sail— we managed to sail with the dolphins, which changed my life. But I'll definitely be back to swim with them one day. Gillian, thank you very much for your time and sharing your passion for sharks with us.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 44:04
Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me and chatting about sharks. And yes, you need to get back to Bimini and have that moment, and I hope you get a chance to.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 44:11
Yep, will do. Thanks, Gillian.
Jillian Morris (Guest) · 44:13
Thank you.
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