Jill Nash · 50 min
At 86, Jill Nash has buried a child, a husband, and decades of suppressed grief, and turned every loss into a crusade for dignified dying and connected ageing.
Hear this story
At 86, Jill Nash has lived through the kind of losses that break families. She buried her infant daughter, who died after a year of suffering from meningitis complications. She buried her husband, who chose to disappear to England rather than face his own dying, leaving her without closure or answers. She rebuilt her family alone, suppressing her own grief to hold everyone together. What she learned from those fractures has shaped sixty years of advocacy for how Australians die.
Jill carries a lesson from her childhood. At ten, she watched her father, a GP, help dying patients pass peacefully. He showed her that dying well was not just possible, it was important. She held that belief through decades of her own family's terrible deaths, then began teaching others. She ran eighteen sessions at the University of the Third Age on end-of-life planning, covering wills and palliative care and coffins, because she believes that once people accept they will die, they can finally live. She advocated for voluntary assisted dying legislation because she thinks people should have the right to choose when and how to die, not the medical system.
But Jill's work has always been about connection. She teaches older Australians that curiosity and learning don't stop, that loneliness is a choice that can be unmade, that showing up for each other matters. She mentors younger women, passing on what she knows. She knocks on doors. She asks hard questions. She listens to people's stories. And at 86, she is still discovering what she has to offer, still looking down the streets she hasn't walked yet.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses grief & loss, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • Lifeline (24/7 crisis support): 13 11 14 · lifeline.org.au • GriefLine: 1300 845 745 · griefline.org.au
“I'm not at all afraid of dying, but I do want to die well.”
“You don't fight them, you suppress them. And I became a robot because there was so much to do to keep the family together.”
“It was a terrible death and it shouldn't have been.”
The hero, today
Jill learned at age 10 from her father, a GP, that dying well was important, and that lesson shaped everything she has believed and done for the past 76 years. When her daughter died in circumstances Jill describes as terrible and her husband fell apart emotionally, Jill suppressed her own grief and became 'a robot' to hold the family together, a choice that strained her marriage and affected each of her children differently. Jill believes that accepting the inevitability of death first, then getting your affairs in order, actually frees you to live more fully in whatever time remains. Jill argues that older Australians lose curiosity and confidence, telling themselves 'I'm old, I'm past it' often in their 60s, and she sees this as a waste of the opportunities that are actually available to them. Jill does not believe in altruism; she thinks everybody who volunteers or helps does something for a purpose, and she gets something out of her advocacy work for dignified ageing and end-of-life choice.
Yes. Jill Nash is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Jill learned at age 10 from her father, a GP, that dying well was important, and that lesson shaped everything she has believed and done for the past 76 years.
When her daughter died in circumstances Jill describes as terrible and her husband fell apart emotionally, Jill suppressed her own grief and became 'a robot' to hold the family together, a choice that strained her marriage and affected each of her children differently.
Jill believes that accepting the inevitability of death first, then getting your affairs in order, actually frees you to live more fully in whatever time remains.
John Milham (Host) · 00:05
Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. Today, my guest is Jill Nash. She is an inspiring woman who moved from England to Australia at a young age. She has faced huge challenges, including the heartbreaking loss of both a child and her husband. Through these tough times, she discovered her own resilience, strength, and found new purpose. She now dedicates her time to helping older Australians live and age well. Jill is an advocate for dignified end-of-life choices. She is active in her community and passionate about connection, curiosity, and lifelong learning. We hope you enjoy Jill's story. So ladies and gentlemen and listeners to Kintsugi Heroes, welcome to another episode, another podcast. And today I'm talking to Jill Nash. Welcome to Kintsugi Heroes. Am I allowed to mention how old you are? Is that all right?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 01:18
I often do that because I think that's just a number. I'm 86.
John Milham (Host) · 01:23
86. You are so lively and inspiring at that number. So it might be just a number, but it's an impressive number from my point of view. So thank you for joining us on Contiki Heroes, and I know how engaged you are with the concept of ageing and programs around ageing well. So living well when you are, when you're an older Australian, but, and also dying well when you're an older Australian, right? Which we were just chatting about. And it sounds a bit grim to start with that, but of course, where we, and you know, older Australians need to have those conversations, don't we? So.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 02:00
Absolutely. Yeah.
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Jill argues that older Australians lose curiosity and confidence, telling themselves 'I'm old, I'm past it' often in their 60s, and she sees this as a waste of the opportunities that are actually available to them.
This conversation includes a life built on adventure, when her husband got sick, a terrible death that shouldn't have been, learning from her father what dying well means, becoming a robot to hold the family together and her husband's choice to stop chemo and disappear.
John Milham (Host) · 02:01
You are involved in so many things. You're involved in local health districts conversations. You're involved in ageing programs for both local government and other bodies. You're joined me on the community council for the PHN, making a contribution to primary healthcare. You run seminars, you know, about loneliness and connection. Have I missed anything? What do you need to tell us about yourself, Jill?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 02:25
Well, that's a very good summary of things, John. I mean, just briefly, I suppose, I mean, I was born in England. I came here with my two little boys when I was 25 with my husband. We felt we were quite adventurous. We built a house, we lived on 5 acres, we used recycled materials wherever we could. You know, we were on adventure.
John Milham (Host) · 02:46
My goodness.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 02:47
And that adventure was heaps of fun for 20 years until my husband contracted cancer at the age of 44. And we were living on this 5 acres, 15 kilometers outside the center of Sydney. Mm-hmm. And so it was a time to be resilient for all of us. During that time also, we had 2 more children, 2 little girls, Tommy Boys and Aussie Girls. And the younger one was born with a congenital defect and sadly died 18 months later. Mm-hmm. But not before she hadn't contracted meningitis.
John Milham (Host) · 03:23
No.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 03:23
And was not allowed to die then. Although I queried that, she was allowed to continue to not— I can't call it living, it was just surviving for another year. And eventually she died. And it became, for me, the beginning of a crusade, I suppose, because it was a terrible death. And it shouldn't have been. There were opportunities for easing her pain, our pain, and it was extremely destructive to our family, extremely challenging to our marriage. But then she died, and then we dealt with the aftermath of that. And I think that influenced hugely my husband's attitude towards death, which was simply to deny that it existed.
John Milham (Host) · 04:11
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 04:12
And my father was a GP. And he was very compassionate, humane, GP. And in those days, there wasn't litigation if you did the wrong thing as a doctor. You followed your profession and your heart.
John Milham (Host) · 04:25
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 04:26
And I got indoctrinated— not indoctrinated, but convinced that dying well was so important. And I was about 10 at the time, I suppose. I used to go around with him in his rounds. And he'd say he'd seen old Mrs. So-and-so who was dying. And he'd tell me, how he helped her to die peacefully.
John Milham (Host) · 04:45
Wow.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 04:46
And so that's been a very, it's a long time, it's 76 years ago that I learned that message.
John Milham (Host) · 04:52
You know, it sounds like, uh, you know, outer England. Was that in like a, was it an urban environment or, you know, it sounds a little, it was about 20 miles from London.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 05:00
My father was, as I say, a doctor, a GP during the war, during the Blitz.
John Milham (Host) · 05:04
Mm-hmm.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 05:04
Um, that's a whole nother story, but in the sense of why I believe what I believe, It is those lived experiences because when my baby died, sadly my father died 2 weeks after that, having just been to visit us. Wow. And he was only 60. Wow. So we've had a lot, we faced a lot of deaths. Yeah. And, and frankly, they've all been bad. Yeah. And I don't think that's necessary. And I think it's not nearly so bad now. Mm-hmm. And I'm not at all afraid of dying. And I do want to die well.
John Milham (Host) · 05:37
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 05:38
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 05:38
So you, you have been involved in the voluntary assisted dying legislation. How did that, you know, obviously that sounds like a logical place for you to go over time, but it's a long stretch from, you know, dealing with such personal tragedy and then becoming an advocate for others in that situation. How did that come about? How did you get involved?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 06:01
Well, it probably is It was because there was a long gap in between the two things. It was an opportunity because I was living at Coffs Harbour. I lived in Sydney for the first 20 years of our being here, and then I moved up— probably more. I moved outside, first of all to Kiama area down on the South Coast, and then up to the Mid North Coast in beautiful Sawtell near Coffs Harbour. But south of us in Port Macquarie, there was a Dying With Dignity branch. And I think it must have been— I don't know the trigger for it, John, but it must have been the right time. I felt it was the right time to address this. And here was an opportunity for people who believe that you should die well. And so I joined that. And then the legislation for VAD in New South Wales was being proposed. Yet again. Yeah. And by that stage, I'd become a little bit more involved in planning for later life. And one of the topics I felt should be included was voluntary assisted dying. And then I found a fellow believer, if you like, and together we set up a pod for voluntary assisted dying promotion in Coffs Harbour, and advocated hugely for that. And it was hearing people's stories. We have we did it mostly by markets and petitions. Mm-hmm. And it was here and everybody wanted to tell their story as to why they were in favor of it. And that really touches you when you hear those stories. So that was the motivation then. Yeah. Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 07:38
You know, talking about your daughter's death, this sense of, you know, having, you know, two young girls and of course the boys were quite young as well, right? So how, like, that loss of a child is so overwhelming, you know, and you mentioned the, the challenge to the family. How do you navigate that? You know, like, do you, is it a cognitive thing or do you fight through the, the emotions to keep things balanced?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 08:05
You don't fight them, you suppress them.
John Milham (Host) · 08:07
Right.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 08:08
And I became a robot because there was so much to do to keep the family together.
John Milham (Host) · 08:12
Hmm.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 08:13
My husband, her father, just went to pieces emotionally. He couldn't cope. So somebody had to, didn't they? And so that became my role. I mean, it was extremely difficult because my daughter, that little girl's elder sister, was only 2 and a half when the younger one died. But also, I'd had to push her aside basically in order to care for this poor little thing who needed 24-hour care. So that had its consequences on Wendy. The two boys were 6 and 7 when she died, 5 and 6. And that manifested in different ways. I won't go into the details of it, but tho— it was extremely difficult to manage that, but manage it, it had to be.
John Milham (Host) · 08:56
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 08:57
So I don't know, that was 55 years ago or something like that.
John Milham (Host) · 09:02
Now it's one of those things now where we look at it and we think, oh, there must be supports, you know, we need to have people around it. But of course they were different times. So did you have any support? Was it informal or formal?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 09:17
Well, the best support came from friends, but I had no family here. Yeah. We had no family here. There was no loss and grief when my husband died. There were no things like that. You know, grieving was something that you sort of, again, as I say, you suppressed your grief. You became a machine, or I did, or, or you withdraw. And I didn't withdraw.
John Milham (Host) · 09:37
No.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 09:38
But my husband did. And so that inevitably drew us apart. I mean, not, not terminally, but certainly it strained it because I was resentful that I didn't have his support.
John Milham (Host) · 09:50
Yeah, of course.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 09:52
And I've only recently asked my boys who— I might say that the other daughter, Wendy, she's now estranged from the family. She just, she won't have anything to do with us. So basically my connection with my children is my two sons who are 62 and 63. And we're only really now beginning to talk about it.
John Milham (Host) · 10:11
You know, like when you think back, there's so much baggage, you know, that could have been sorted at the time with a little bit of support and a little bit of, you know, understanding. But, oh yeah, I'm, I'm sorry to hear that. With going through, you know, and not having that support and managing and suppressing, as you said, I'm always fascinated that something comes up and often a physical manifestation of the challenges emotionally that you go through. You know, do you have that thought, you know, him getting sick late and passing away?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 10:47
You know, rationally you can say maybe that contributed. I really don't know. All I can do is, you know, it's what I can do with that ground, that information, that lived experience. All I can do moving forward— my daughter, as I say, isn't here to discuss it, but my two boys, I think they've sort of pushed it. We've all moved on. We are not denying it. It happened. It was terrible. It had its effect. We've all moved on.
John Milham (Host) · 11:15
You know, being very young age to go through that kind of terminal challenge, right? Was he in chemo? Would— did you have to manage that whole illness processes before then the, the death process?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 11:29
Yeah. When he was diagnosed with bowel cancer, he did start chemo and then we made a joint decision that he would stop because at that stage, we are talking about 1970.
John Milham (Host) · 11:41
Mm-hmm.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 11:42
At that stage it was diabolical. I mean, I think it's a, it's a whole different picture now, but it's still not good, obviously. But first of all, the prognosis is better. So, but in his case, it was so awful when during the time that he was having the chemo, he was told there was a 50/50 chance of survival if he didn't have it.
John Milham (Host) · 12:02
Mm-hmm.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 12:03
And he, we stopped it and he was in the wrong 50%. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 12:06
Wow.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 12:07
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 12:08
Chemo is so destructive to an individual, right? That, and of course they, as they get weaker, you know, your relationship changes with them. How did you understand, you know, your role as wife, mother, and carer?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 12:24
Well, I was a whole lot younger, of course, and I think that's very important in terms of older, you know, contracting some terminal disease when you're older. You don't have the resilience that you have when you're younger. As I say, I just had to get on with family, but I was very lucky. I'd started a career job. It was well paid, fulfilling, and so on. He was not the provider. I mean, he did provide, but I was the major provider. And when I came home from work one day to find a letter on the table saying that he had decided to leave us, to disappear was his word, and that was obviously devastating. And I had no idea where he had gone until I had a phone call in the middle of the night from England saying he had died there. In a hospice.
John Milham (Host) · 13:14
Oh my goodness. So he decided to take himself away for the process.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 13:18
Yes. Yeah. Well, he came from England. He wasn't born there actually, but he was born in India, but he'd spent most of his young life in England. And I mean, again, I was absolutely furious. The hospice where he was, there were none here at the time, but there was one there, St. Christopher's. It's very famous. They would not tell me any details about how he got there, where he'd come from, anything about, so it's still a mystery.
John Milham (Host) · 13:46
Oh goodness. It's, you know, obviously it's, it must have haunted you that, you know, the why of his decision. You can't even see the process, right? Did that have an impact on you?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 14:00
Oh, of course. But he felt he was doing it out of love and the letter was a very, very loving letter. So I had to cling on to that. That was the motivation. That was the emotion. So it was cruel. I saw it as being cruel. He saw it as being kind.
John Milham (Host) · 14:20
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 14:21
Emotionally, that was the gap between us. I would have liked to have shared it. I mean, I care for him. I was able to do that. And I was a doctor's daughter. So I knew about that. But it was that lack of trust, I suppose, on his side. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 14:35
It does strike me as, you know, the, a sort of a traditional, you know, from that era, you know, the previous era, the masculine, you know, let's hide even our pain is, you know, we need to hide.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 14:48
And English, John, too. Mm-hmm. I mean, you know, you've said British upper lip. Yeah. You know, definitely that was a contributing factor completely. So, I mean, now again, you know, there are hospices, there's palliative care. You know, it's such a different world. Then that's, you know, that's, that's nature. That's, that's history.
John Milham (Host) · 15:08
Very, uh, like it strikes me as a, a very difficult place to be, you know, suddenly the absence of your husband, the lack of closure around that process, you know, your family. And of course you've still gotta make your way in the world. What did you reach for? What was your way of coping?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 15:30
I won't say I'm not a believer, but I'm not a churchgoer, so that wasn't an opportunity. Friends were wonderful and that was a huge source of comfort. And the rest of it was kind of grim determination, I suppose.
John Milham (Host) · 15:44
Yeah. Do you think you were like, you know, there are other people who go through, you know, not the same of course, but tragedies and difficulties. Did you feel like you were alone in what you were doing, or did this connect you to other people who were going through things?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 16:01
One friend, we both worked for the Film and Television School in Ryde in its infancy, and I had lunch with her yesterday. She's now 90.
John Milham (Host) · 16:12
Wow.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 16:13
I'm a bit younger. Um, but we were there together for, on the staff for about a year before both our husbands died within 6 weeks of each other. Oh my goodness. We'd been to England basically on a swan song for my husband to say goodbye to his family and so on. I mean, he didn't make any secret of the fact that he was dying. And also one of our sons was in America as an exchange student. So we needed to go and see him and tell him in person. My goodness. It's another aspect of it. But just continuing on the friend thing, we got home on was actually Australia Day. And these friends had stocked our fridge with goods, knowing that we were coming back from England. And, you know, we'd be tired. And so I rang up to say thank you and talk to Julie. And then the next day, she rang me about 9 hours later. And she said, you wouldn't believe this, but Peter died in the night. Oh, her husband died in the night. Wow. That began another whole journey. Which has cemented us obviously huge. And then as it happens, both our daughters got anorexia. You know, there were a whole lot of things that we both went through. So to that extent, she was the one, yes, she was going through it, but you know, we only had so much to give each other cuz we were dealing with ourselves. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 17:30
Wow. It's interesting. Yeah. So leaning on somebody in that moment, did you like the general, you know, friend group and so on? Can sometimes struggle to offer that support, right? You know, well-meaning and caring, reaching out, but it can— the way it's done can sometimes be draining rather than supporting. Did you find that? Did you, like, you've been inspired to be, you know, to teach people and, you know, help the community have conversation? Did that come out of that experience?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 18:05
Yeah, and after this that I will be tired. Yeah. Because you reached parts of me that I've dealt with, but exposing them like this is emotionally draining.
John Milham (Host) · 18:17
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 18:17
But I want to do it. It's important to do it, I think. I want it. The other thing I was going to say, because this is a big part of it, that when my son was in America and we went over there, and he of course was incredibly upset his father was going to die. And Mike said, don't worry, Rob, I'll let you know when it's time for you to come home. But that never happened. So I think all we need to talk, we just need to tell people, we need to be true. And then you can build some trust. And so there was no, you know, it was very difficult for him to Well, I'm putting words into his mouth. I don't know. Now he says he's fine. You know, he's sort of, I've moved on, Mum, I've moved on. But he was 17 at the time. He did come home before his father had died. He actually did come home. But his father had disappeared to England.
John Milham (Host) · 19:17
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 19:17
And brought him home. And then he had to go to hospital for a procedure. So actually, when we heard the news, he was in hospital having a procedure. His elder brother was 18. It was his 18th birthday. And so, I mean, it could not have got— it really honestly couldn't have got a lot worse. Well, of course it could, but to us it couldn't.
John Milham (Host) · 19:36
Yeah, no, no, absolutely.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 19:38
And then going back to the friend, we, as I say, we were working in television at the time. And in the early days of the Film and Television School, we had on staff, I don't know how old your audience is, but Simon Townsend. And he had a show called Simon Townsend's Wonderworld. And Simon's father died when he was 13. And he said to us, because we were both his colleagues, would you mind if we made a program about the death of a parent? Yeah. And that was such a vastness because two of mine and her two girls made it together. What do you say after you say I'm sorry? Yeah. Thinking of the other part, you know, the people who've got to deal with your sorrow. Yeah. What do kids say to their schoolmates?
John Milham (Host) · 20:21
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 20:22
We need to be able to help kids to deal with it too.
John Milham (Host) · 20:27
Absolutely. Just on a personal note, my wife passed from bowel cancer as well, roughly the same age with young kids. And I remember a classmate of my son's, a young girl had an aneurysm and passed away, and her mother had been the year advisor for my son. So she was, she'd been a part of our lives, right? Supporting them, you know, she had tried and she was compassionate and nice. And I remember taking my son and his friends to the funeral and they, you know, at the end of the funeral, there's mom and dad lining up and, you know, the well-wishers are walking past, of course, and passing on words of condolences and, you know, thanks. And the boys are, are there with me and they looked at me and said, what do we say? And at that moment, I, I just, you know, had that thought, my goodness, you know, this is Absolutely. Such a teachable moment, right? But like, whose job is it to give them something, you know, to give them something that will be important for not just this moment, but for the rest of their lives, right? So I've tried to just, you know, tell them that anything they say, as long as they, you know, look them in the eyes and you say it from the heart and, you know, just share, you know, how you are feeling with them and then just say, you know, you know, we're thinking of you or sharing with you. Yeah. Like just very simple things, right? That don't try not to drain the person that you are sharing condolences with.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 21:55
Good thing was that they wanted to say something. Mm-hmm. And that's the point really, isn't it?
John Milham (Host) · 22:01
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 22:01
That they weren't trying to say, Dad, I can't stand it yet. Let's go away. And also you were there. I mean, when my, my mother died, my children, all three of them. We were all in England because I was helping her through that process. But they were sent away. They weren't even allowed— my husband would not let them come to the funeral. And I think that was all part of his not able to face death.
John Milham (Host) · 22:24
Yeah, I think it's really important to have kids open to this stuff.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 22:28
Yeah. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 22:29
Incredible journey through grief for you and your family. Obviously, that shaped your interest. So what do you think was like inspiring your determination to make changes, to be a part of the community response to this?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 22:48
That's a challenging one. I don't think they're necessarily related, but I've always felt empowered to deal with social justice or social injustice. Mm-hmm. From when I was about 8 or 9, when something happened in our household and I stood up for the underdog. Against my parents and threatened them to leave if they didn't reinstate this particular person. And so I've always been perfectly willing to do that, to make a stand for what I believe is right. I hope it is right. I'm not prepared to just let it go. If there's anything I can do, and I can, then I will.
John Milham (Host) · 23:24
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 23:25
And in a way, that drives me, that fortifies me too. Yeah. It gives me a purpose.
John Milham (Host) · 23:30
It's interesting you say purpose in many ways. Like I think, you know, people who have a lived experience with trauma and, you know, challenge around it, that can be sometimes a pathway to a purpose. Do you feel like many of your purposes come out of some of those lived experiences?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 23:48
I'm sure. And perhaps yours do too.
John Milham (Host) · 23:51
They probably do. Yeah. How did you find a way to get involved?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 23:55
A psychologist once said to me, there's one word I'd use to describe you, Gill Nash. It is determined. You know, for example, you and I serve on the community council. As you have said, I did a lot of things up in Coffs Harbour. I came back to Sydney 2.5 years ago with no connections in that way because when I left, I actually was a volunteer in the Olympic Games and that was the last time I'd been in Sydney. And Sydney had changed such a lot. And how do I get back into things I care about, these sorts of things I've been doing? And it wasn't easy at all. The reason I'm a member of the community council is I was standing on Hornsby Station and the previous chair of our committee and I got talking and she said, oh, you should be on our community council. But she said, I can't do anything because I'm the outgoing chair, but I will introduce you to the incoming chair.
John Milham (Host) · 24:46
Right.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 24:47
And so we had a cup of tea and here we are.
John Milham (Host) · 24:49
So serendipity as well as purpose combined to put you into the next iteration of volunteering.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 24:56
But I think there's another thing. I'm lucky I'm not shy. Mm-hmm. And I'm quite willing to go into unfamiliar places. It doesn't scare me. And I think that's an extremely valuable thing to have. You can't manufacture that if you're not like that. I, I think it's a personality thing, don't you?
John Milham (Host) · 25:14
I think you can learn courage.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 25:16
Well, yes, I think you can learn courage, but For some people, the world's quite scary, but I find the world really friendly. Hmm. And so it's not too hard for me to, to knock on doors. They're not always opened, but I knock on enough doors to be busy.
John Milham (Host) · 25:35
Absolutely. And knocking on doors can, you know, is a skill in of itself that sort of, you know, the willingness to step into and invite vulnerability into your world. Yeah. Perhaps it's a trait. I like to think that, you know, there are keys to unlock around, say, people being more aware of their capacity, more aware of their ability to make a choice and how they turn up in the world can be a part of that choice.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 26:05
I think that's very true. And as I said, I had lunch today with a friend of mine and we talked a lot about death and dying. He's got so many comorbidities, but he's absolutely not morbid to be with. He's quite the contrary, but we did talk about how do you get people to believe in their own talents or even to discover what they are and then use them? He made that point and that's exactly what you're saying, I think. How do you know what you've got to offer? You know, can we help you discover what you've got to offer? You may be surprised, but you know, well, absolutely.
John Milham (Host) · 26:37
And I, you know, perhaps, you know, that's the, you know, the idea of like volunteering and turning up out of our passion, out of our purpose, the lived experience that drives that. Maybe the awareness, like, it seems selfish on the surface that we've gone through something, so we then want to be there for others, like, almost in some ways, like, we're trying to do it better than we did it, right?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 27:01
So, well, I've never believed in altruism. I think everybody does something for a purpose.
John Milham (Host) · 27:06
Mm-hmm.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 27:07
And, you know, oh, you are good when somebody says, oh, you are good. Well, sorry. Yeah. Thank you very much, but actually I'm getting something out of this. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 27:16
And perhaps that's the way, you know, humans have got on, right? You know, like it's ultimately there's, you know, a degree of reciprocity in me helping you and you helping me, right? So yeah. You said something earlier, I'm okay with dying. How do you decide? And again, I apologize for asking those, you know, draining questions. But if you can just bear with me for a moment, how do you decide that it's going to be okay to die?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 27:51
How do you decide? Well, first of all, accepting the inevitability of it. Mm-hmm. And I find a lot of my contemporaries, I've got a lot of friends who are over 90 and, and most of them are in denial. That they're ever gonna die. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 28:09
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 28:09
That's why I started the courses on planning. Because once you plan, once you accept it, so there's acceptance first.
John Milham (Host) · 28:16
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 28:16
And then you start saying, okay, I'll get my stuff in order and I'll tell who I need to tell and so on. And then that's done. Now I can get on living. However, it's 2 years, 10 years, 20 years, whatever it is. Most of that arises out of the mess was left when my husband died. Because the fantastic man, but a terrible administrator. So there was nothing, he did have a will, I'll give him that. But there was absolutely nothing else. And everything was chaotic, you know, the finances. And of course, in those days, the man did the finances. I think that's what's driven me. And that's why I think I've changed in who I think I need to reach. With encouraging people to get organised. I now feel it's got the children to be the next generation down. Yeah. For a number of reasons. First of all, as I say, people of my age, many of them are in denial. Secondly, a lot of them aren't computer literate enough to be able to do it efficiently. I mean, it's a nightmare. It's a lot of work. And it's a lot of work keeping it up. I actually do have a great big— I call it— did you— I don't know if I've shown that to you because I've shown it to seminars. It's called my Jill's Golden Oldie Folder, right? And it's got absolutely everything that I think my executors, my sons, yeah, could possibly need to make it easy for them because it's a burden otherwise. So, you know, I use that as a physical prop to encourage people to get things done. But then it they're empowered then.
John Milham (Host) · 29:53
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 29:54
And then I can get on with enjoying life and talking to you.
John Milham (Host) · 29:57
Yeah. It's, it's one of those, um, contra, you know, sort of indicated kind of, you know, contrarian ideas. The idea that once you are comfortable dying, you actually have more freedom to living, you know. Does that make sense?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 30:12
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That's my gospel according to Jill.
John Milham (Host) · 30:18
What was the challenge in planning, right? Do you think, you know, like what were the interesting elements you unlocked when you were starting to think, you know, wow, my last experience was a nightmare. Now I want mine to be better. How did you put those things together?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 30:34
Well, I do have a training background, experience in curriculum development and so on. We're nearly out of time, aren't we? So designing it. Was fun. And then I put it out to people to test and say, you know, what do you think of this? Oh, it's too long, Jill, or there's too much this, or the emphasis is wrong here, blah, blah, blah. And so I adapted it. So I ran that University of the Third Age, and it ran for 6 months. And I thought, oh, I'll do half a dozen sessions, that'll be enough. There were 18 sessions with 2 or 3 speakers in each. There was so much to cover. About later life and getting yourself. And also, all the sorts of things, you know, the things we've talked about before, loneliness and isolation, you know, do you know where the local choirs are? Do you know where the bushwalking club is? You know, putting, connecting people. There's the positive things, but then also the very— and we had a funeral director who came in, loaded his coffin. He asked me whether that would be too confronting. So he put one of his most decorative ones, and then he gave us all lollies. And I said, "Do you mean you want us to pop in?" You know, "You're killing us off first, are you?" So we did it in a very humorous kind of way. But it was still— and some people were quite confronted. But you've got to face it. You've got to face it somehow. And not necessarily the coffin, but it is a part of that process. It's all process. And I enjoyed putting that together a lot. And I like speaking. I didn't present. I actually invited, in most cases, I didn't present many of the sessions at all. I just invited experts in their field.
John Milham (Host) · 32:14
The sessions were, you know, were very popular at times. What was the journey like for people who turned up? Were they, were these people looking for this kind of information or was it new to them, do you think?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 32:24
Well, it was a new course. I had to get it approved by, they'd never had done anything like that. But I repeated the course the following year and 4 of the people came again because they said there was so much to absorb. I mean, I did give them copious resources to take away in their folders. After that, the numbers were dropping. I really couldn't ask a busy solicitor to come and talk about wills, 6 people, or a palliative care nurse being dragged away from, you know, her duties to come to talk to a small number. So I stopped it. And that's why we started doing, and by then I gathered a group of people to talk about VAD. And I said, you can't just talk about VAD, it's too confronting for people. Let's talk about broader things. So then we ran 2-hour sessions for in retirement villages because people are very unaware. You know, there's not a thirst to know because people don't want to face it.
John Milham (Host) · 33:20
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 33:21
And therefore there's ignorance and that's frightening to me anyway.
John Milham (Host) · 33:25
You are very industrious and busy. Do you think that changes the nature of aging? Like, you know, once you get to retirement or, you know, like your friends are a bit older, so you're not climbing, you know, Himalayas, although, you know, that's possible, of course. But, you know, does it, is it possible to stay, you know, engaged and passionate?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 33:46
I think so. I go to exercise classes 2 or 3 times a week. And that's a group of people, mostly women, I'm afraid. But they're all engaged, they're involved with Vinnies, helping homeless people, or they're gardening for somebody, or they're, you know, and they go to exercise class. So they're living well, they're aging well. And if you go into those environments, it's very hard not to be persuaded. I just don't know people who are in their homes. And that's of course a story in itself. I wish I did. I wish I had been into a social housing. It was actually art therapy. And I was invited to go in because they wanted the residents to interact with broader community. This is my friend, the art therapist. And only one person came into that. I mean, it was free. They could do— they didn't have to make anything. They just could talk if they liked. They could just interact. And they didn't. And I think that's the sad— and I don't know how we overcome that, John.
John Milham (Host) · 34:46
Yeah, there's so many challenges to, you know, the— given the current environment, you know, there are social determinants for loneliness and for, you know, say financial difficulty and housing and, you know, the system itself. And of course illness. We know that one of the fastest growing areas of suicide is older Australians, right? People over 65.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 35:13
I think it's older men too, isn't it? Rather than women.
John Milham (Host) · 35:15
Yeah. And yeah, they're a significant bias to men doing that. You know, what do you think might be some of the challenges that seem to result in enough despair and pain that after all of those years of getting through, you know, Australians are deciding it's over.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 35:36
Well, through this, my group that I go to on Tuesdays are mostly men, all in about their 80s, still engaged. But Tuesday mornings is their lifeblood. Yeah. And I suspect that it's for people who don't know how to tap into that.
John Milham (Host) · 35:56
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 35:57
And they say, what is life about? What's the point? Well, beginning of the year, Council of the Ageing, COTA New South Wales, had a subgroup called Omni, Older Men, New Ideas, right? Men getting together. And I think if you could set up Omnis everywhere, maybe in your work you do, but people need to know how to tap into that and they need to want to go. Yeah. And those are the barriers, aren't they? I don't know how you address that.
John Milham (Host) · 36:23
Well, it's very difficult to reach people and invite them into someplace new that they've, in many cases, they've spent their entire life avoiding. Right. You know, that say, you know, sharing emotionally with other men or, you know, being available to be supported or to support others is not something a lot of men have practiced in their life. Right.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 36:44
Two men, one in that group and another, another man, he's 75 and he came to lunch on Sunday. I hadn't, I had met him, but I hadn't socialized with him and he injected himself cuz he's overweight. Because he eats too much. And he belongs to the church. So he's involved with that. And I said, do you have enough to fill in your day? And he said no. So he's overweight and lonely. Another friend, different situation. His wife has dementia. He's also overweight and lonely. And I think, there's a thread here. How do you, you know, how do you get to that? It's really much more in your field than mine.
John Milham (Host) · 37:33
But, you know, like you're offering the opportunity for people to come together and learn, right? And I'm interested also in, in your idea, like, you know, offering lessons and learning and let you know that we talk about Lifeline Learning. You think it's possible? Like, When do we stop learning?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 37:50
Do you think that, you know, the day I snuff it will be the day I stop, with any luck? I mean, provided I'm cognitively available to be able to do it. It's very difficult to start it if you do stop. Yeah. So I think it's got to be a continuous thread and a curiosity. I think a number of people lose curiosity, and I think that's incredibly sad because the opportunities for learning and experiencing new things are almost overwhelming, in fact.
John Milham (Host) · 38:19
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 38:20
But again, that's why I think the value of things like U3A or View Clubs or Probus or seminars that, you know, like the ones we put on, the opportunities are there. I can understand some people's reluctance because I think they've lost confidence.
John Milham (Host) · 38:35
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 38:35
And I think that's one of the stumbling blocks is they feel, oh, I'm old, I'm past it. I can't believe how many times people tell me and they're in their 60s or something, I'm getting old. And I think, what a waste, you know.
John Milham (Host) · 38:51
As a leader, right, you know, with COTA, and of course you're, you know, an effective advocate for, you know, the needs of older Australians in different places. What do you hope for the population? You know, the country is getting older. What do you hope happens?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 39:09
You may be surprised with this, and it's a pretty contradictory sort of thing to say, provocative. If people want to die, I think they should die.
John Milham (Host) · 39:17
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 39:18
I think should be much more choice about when they want to die. And so your instances of the older men suicide thing is they're exercising a choice.
John Milham (Host) · 39:27
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 39:27
That's what that's about. Yeah. Now I think we should be making it easier and more dignified and comfortable for people to exercise that choice. Do you think about the health service and the amount of the budget that's going into keeping older people alive with, you know, what I consider not life-sustaining surgery, but it could be. I mean, I just read a book which put amen on every page, or okay, yes, yes, yes, because it was from a palliative care professor talking about power to die, the power to end life. Lies all with medical— well, sorry, not all completely, but so what I would like is for the power to choose when to die and how to die should be taken away from— well, not completely taken away, but you know what I'm saying? There should be a power shift about that.
John Milham (Host) · 40:22
Well, they talk about the dignity of risk for people, you know. We should be able to risk, you know, through our own choices, we should be able to risk our own lives. Up to a point, right? If it doesn't impact or fall on other people in a negative way or so on, we should be able to exercise agency over our situation.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 40:42
We know we've lost agency, I do feel. I looked at a huge, great, a really huge cement truck coming towards me today, and I thought, now, if I stood in front of that truck, what would be the consequences? And that's what you're saying, that truck driver will probably be charged with reckless driving, but it wouldn't be. It would be me exercising a choice.
John Milham (Host) · 41:03
Yeah, I think it's like, you're right, that's controversial. So part of that is right, there, there probably should be, if we move into that sort of more the expanded view of the VAD, right, we probably should be looking at much more sort of dignified options than cement trucks, right?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 41:24
But, uh, oh yes, it would be very messy. But I mean, it was an extreme example just to illustrate the point. But it's, you know, who has agency? And you rightly said, provided that, you know, the consideration for the people affected by that action. But having dealt with that, having satisfied that it's okay, then the agency should rest with me, on you.
John Milham (Host) · 41:51
And yeah, perfect. Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 41:53
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 41:53
It's interesting. Now, people at this point, they often talk about a life well lived. What do you think a life well lived is, Gill?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 42:02
Probably varies hugely. You know, for some people it might be winning a gold medal at the Olympics. For me, I am very proud of my family cuz it was so tough at the beginning. I'm reaping the benefits, if you like, now because my relationships with my two sons and my six grandchildren— I haven't quite got a great relationship with my great-grandchild yet because she's two and in America, but I'm working on that. But I think relationships are indicative of a life well lived.
John Milham (Host) · 42:37
Yeah, wow.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 42:37
And also, I don't want to go to the wherever I'm going and say, "If only I had done that." Even every day, it's, I mean, some people think I'm, I don't know what they think. They don't usually think it's a good idea, a good thing for me. I like to achieve something during the day. Today's my first podcast.
John Milham (Host) · 42:57
Yes. Wow. Clearly you should have been doing it years ago, right?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 43:01
You know what I mean? You need to value and not say, I can't do this anymore. I mean, I, you're an excellent interviewer. I mean, that's fantastic. And you obviously enjoy it. Mm. Yeah. A life well lived. I just think it varies.
John Milham (Host) · 43:15
Do you think the loss of connection, right? They're like so many Australians when they're in that middle age period, they lose friends because they're focused on family or making, you know, a career work and so on. You know, men in particular don't make new friends very well. Communication and being vulnerable isn't something we practice, right? Even if we have a capacity for it, right, we haven't learned it or we we don't practice it. What might help change this? You know, like, did a program where we go and, you know, hug all— every, you know, every older Australian, every other person over 60 gets a free hug a day or something like that? This is very much your bailiwick about, you know, trying to, you know, encourage older Australians.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 44:01
Well, I absolutely love traveling. And that, I think, has opened my eyes hugely to being curious. And I mean traveling, I don't mean going in a bus.
John Milham (Host) · 44:15
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 44:16
And what, you know, the only stops you do for someone to have a pee. Yeah. I mean curiosity to explore the side streets. Yeah. And I think that's could be a metaphor for life really. What's down there? What's ahead there? Not necessarily in a physical sense. Mm-hmm. But in a mental and intellectual sense, I suppose. Oh, what's paleontology? Google it. It's easy. You know, you can, it, it's easy to be curious now.
John Milham (Host) · 44:45
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 44:46
And I think AI's wonderful.
John Milham (Host) · 44:48
It's a lot of free labor out there waiting to be engaged with something interesting. Right. And there's a lot of toddlers out there that probably need grandparents. Right. So I, I don't understand why they, we don't bring those resources together more often.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 45:01
So I think intergenerational connection is something that's in its infancy and really needs fostering. I learn so much from particularly my two girls I see who are 22 and 28. They teach me so much. And that's a wonderful thing.
John Milham (Host) · 45:20
Yeah, absolutely.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 45:22
But then also that both sides have to foster that connection. It's again, the connectivity, isn't it?
John Milham (Host) · 45:28
In intentional connectivity, you know, you have to invite it. I came today earlier, I was at the last mentoring schools through an organization called Raise Foundation, right? So, and it was the last one for the year. It's a 14-year-old boy that I've mentored over the last 20 weeks or so. I'm just so excited to have the opportunity to talk and connect and build a trust with a 14-year-old boy who's not related, who's just trusted me to come into his life. And I just think if you're like every Australian over the age of, you know, 50 should be doing that on a sort of daily basis. Right.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 46:10
I think, you know, there's so many good reasons available, particularly for families without that relationship between father and son.
John Milham (Host) · 46:18
Yeah.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 46:19
I mean, I think somebody actually said to me, Jill, you were always so confident. And I said, because I had two really great mentors. One when I was 18, the other one when I was 32. And I mean, that is absolutely, John, I mean, that'll make a difference to that young man's life, you doing this. I'm sure.
John Milham (Host) · 46:37
I hope so. But I'm sure selfishly, like we said earlier, it's made a difference to mine, right, as well. Right. So I hope I, you know, I was able to reciprocate with some legacy of care or, you know, something he might take out of it. But I'm grateful for the opportunity for me to still participate in that, you know, that sense of, you know, creating a future for us.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 47:00
Given its value, and I couldn't agree more, the job of people like you and me to promote that, to see how it can be expanded, you know, to, to advocate for it. You know, I think that's the sort of thing. Talking is what I can do. Yeah. So, I mean, I can always stand up. And talk about the value of mentoring. Yeah. But we need to have the right forum for it. I don't know whether that's high schools or RSLs or Men's Sheds or, you know, whatever. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 47:30
You do bring that value of talking and, you know, so passionate and that advocacy, right, that you bravely take on, right? That you mentioned that sort of ability to walk into the unknown area and stand up and say, look at me, I'm gonna tell you something.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 47:45
I couldn't always do that. It took years of practice.
John Milham (Host) · 47:48
Well, you became a master at it. What I'd like to ask finally, just to finish up, is you are so lively and you're doing so much in the world. What do you still want to achieve?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 48:00
Well, I want to continue what I'm trying to do. I've just set up in a formal way, but in my 2 and a half years back in Sydney and through the various organizations that I've, or the things I've been doing, I've met the most formidable people, young women. I mean, I'm not saying there weren't men as well. My concentration was on women. And one of them is on the community council. But they're all caring, compassionate, effective people. So they can— I asked them all for lunch a couple of weeks ago. And we sat on my balcony for hours. And I sat there and I said, "No, that you, you're here today, because I would like my legacy, I would like you to carry it, because since we all believe in the same things, you know, I would like you to collectively to carry it on." And they said, "Is this something you haven't told us, Jill?" But it allowed me to step back. Knowing that the sorts of things that we've talked about this afternoon. Yeah. Move forward without me. That's my hope.
John Milham (Host) · 49:11
This is like succession planning, right?
Jill Nash (Guest) · 49:14
Yes.
John Milham (Host) · 49:14
So yeah, that's a beautiful thought. Jill, I am excited to see you in more in action, like plenty, plenty left to do. I'm so grateful I've had a chance to chat with you today. You've inspired us with both your own personal example, around how to be connected and stay connected and being connected to self and the journey you've had, which has been difficult at times, so difficult at times, but also to, you know, there's many pearls of wisdom there for others to stay connected. So thank you so much, Jill. It's been an absolute joy.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 49:51
Thank you very much for asking me, John. And as I say, you're a terrific interviewer.
John Milham (Host) · 49:55
So thank you.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 49:57
Thank you. I'm I should call it "Conversationist." You couldn't tell. Yeah, wow.
John Milham (Host) · 50:00
Now that is a lovely epitaph. Thank you so much, Jill.
Jill Nash (Guest) · 50:04
You're welcome. Okay.
John Milham (Host) · 50:12
Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use "Broken" as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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