Jonathon Drane
My father never stopped walking
A son's discovery that his father's unspoken war trauma shaped him too, and how understanding that inheritance became the path to healing it.
Kintsugi Studio
Jonathon Drane
A son's discovery that his father's unspoken war trauma shaped him too, and how understanding that inheritance became the path to healing it.
Jonathon Drane spent decades not understanding why certain traits ran through his family like an inheritance he never asked for. Claustrophobia. Asthma. Obsessive patterns that woke him at night, moving things on his bedside table until his father yelled at him to stop. It wasn't until he watched a 60 Minutes report about OCD that Jonathon recognised what he'd been doing as a child. That recognition led him to look harder at his father's story: six years of war across North Africa, New Guinea, and Borneo. Sending his mate Jack to Kokoda, watching Jack die, carrying that moral injury in silence for decades.
When Jonathon finally asked his father at 90 what therapy he'd had, the answer changed everything. His father said he never stopped walking after Jack died. He said his therapy was having a family. Part of Jonathon was angry at first. But as time went on, he understood: his father had found a way to carry his wounds and still show up for his children. He showed them pathways into curiosity, chemistry sets at the laundry sink, the question mark that keeps a mind alive.
Jonathon's research now explores what happens when soldiers leave service without a real way back to being citizens. The military breaks a civilian and remakes them into a soldier. But when they leave, there is no equivalent process to switch them back on as people. They get stuck in limbo, carrying both the old life they can never return to and the soldier identity they cannot shed. Understanding this inheritance, Jonathon learned, is the first step to building something different for the next generation. Reflection and curiosity, not silence, offer the way through.
“He never stopped walking since that happened with that, with Jack.”
“I had a family. And that, and that was it. And that was a huge moment, sort of like Part of me was angry. What, you used us for therapy? But then as time goes by, you go, okay, I get it.”
“They don't have a 3-month deinduction process. Like some of them say, we're just given a, you know, marching over the, you know, the greens and, you know, and walk out the gate, right?”
The hero, today
Jonathon's father told him at 90 that he never stopped walking after sending his mate Jack to his death in war, carrying that moral injury in silence for decades without naming it. Jonathon traced specific traits, claustrophobia, asthma, obsessive compulsive patterns, that appeared in both his father's wartime experiences and his own childhood, without knowing where they came from until much later. The military system is designed to break a civilian and remake them into a soldier, but when soldiers leave service, there is no equivalent process to transition them back into citizen life, leaving them stuck between two identities. Jonathon's father said his therapy was having a family, which meant both that his children unknowingly absorbed his unprocessed trauma and that he found meaning and purpose in raising them despite carrying his wounds. Reflection and curiosity, not stoicism alone, offer a way to understand trauma passed through generations and to build something different for the next one.
Yes. Jonathon Drane is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Jonathon's father told him at 90 that he never stopped walking after sending his mate Jack to his death in war, carrying that moral injury in silence for decades without naming it.
Jonathon traced specific traits, claustrophobia, asthma, obsessive compulsive patterns, that appeared in both his father's wartime experiences and his own childhood, without knowing where they came from until much later.
The military system is designed to break a civilian and remake them into a soldier, but when soldiers leave service, there is no equivalent process to transition them back into citizen life, leaving them stuck between two identities.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 00:00
They're basically saying that there is this, this change in mindset that's created through the survivalist and military system, which then is switched off.
John Milham (Host) · 00:13
Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. Ladies and gentlemen, fans of Kintsugi Heroes, listeners long-term and new, welcome to Kintsugi Heroes Stories That Matter, another podcast. And today I get to dive in with a guest who is connected in many, many ways to a subject that is dear to my heart, being a a military family somewhat myself, uh, and this man knows that feeling well. But more than that, a bit of a polymath. He's a Doctor of Philosophy, uh, has a long history of both, uh, academic and of course commercial success, and now an author, researcher, and editor, journalist. So that's quite an impressive CV. Jonathan Drane, welcome to Kintsugi Heroes.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 01:20
Well, thanks, John. I'm blown away by the intro, and thank you so much for that. So I'm really thrilled to be here, and I think the storytelling side of Kintsugi Heroes is really important to me, and that sort of brings a lot of it to life. And listening to the narratives of veterans and other people, I know it's not just around military, but I think that's a really good medium. So well done for the Kintsugi Heroes.
John Milham (Host) · 01:46
Yeah, so it's lovely of you to talk about Kintsugi Heroes telling stories, but of course that's your happy place in many ways, right? As editor of a document, City Whisperer, and as a man who is capturing the stories of citizen soldiers in the research project, and as someone who is now taking his father's memoir and turning that into a commentary because you're not publishing his memoir, you have to comment on it because of his wishes in the grant. So stories are tied up in almost everything you're doing from my perspective. Is that true? And why are stories so important to you?
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Jonathon's father said his therapy was having a family, which meant both that his children unknowingly absorbed his unprocessed trauma and that he found meaning and purpose in raising them despite carrying his wounds.
This conversation includes the switch that never turns off, why lived experience is the gold, cities have personalities, two voices in the same head, the defects that built buildings hide and six years of horror across three campaigns.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 02:30
Well, look, I think I'm a bit of a— in terms of all the genres of telling stories, my greatest love is reflection and And I learned that when I did my doctorate and my background has been not as an academic, but just as you said, in commercial construction, would you believe? And, but in that sense, I did a doctorate on growth of cities and property development culture and how it was influencing, which was highly topical and still is. And, but in the process, it was a highly cultural study. It was a culture of developers, for example. Okay.. And so, and I had been a commercial high-rise construction guy for 30 years, and then I did a bit of development. So I had lived experience. So in terms of storytelling, my love is lived experience, narrative reflection. And I think that that's the really heartland of what researchers who are, for example, reviewing people for, you know, military culture or whatever, they want to hear those interviews and hear those, what they're saying and things like that. And hearing the reflections, because that's the gold in terms of the truth. And what's behind those stories.
John Milham (Host) · 03:40
Let's dive a little bit into that explanation because, you know, often researchers talk, are measuring sort of empirical data, and yet it's the qualitative data, the nature and commentary under that stories, under those kind of, you know, number points that really reveal the goal, the, you know, the lived experience, the the important learning that researchers take away. So, you know, why do we have this empirical focus when it's the qualitative stuff that really provides insight?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 04:20
I think you're right. And when I went into UNSW, the built environment, the guys there really encouraged mixed methods, so they call it, and a bit of qualitative, bit of quantitative. So, you know, there was a bit of a protocol. Let's do some measuring of the number of developers and how that their traits, that's quantitative. But then let's drill in and let's interview a few, that's qualitative. Um, and then let's get some reflections going from me. That's another form, it's called autoethnography or, uh, telling of one, one's own culture's story.
John Milham (Host) · 04:57
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 04:58
Wow. Okay. Which is a huge subject for me in the, future because I think autoethnography, meaning the story of your own culture, is heartland to understanding research as well. So to have a bit of each of those is really powerful as well.
John Milham (Host) · 05:13
Beautiful. So as an acknowledged expert on city's culture, what is a culture? Like Sydney and Melbourne are often nominally at each other's throats. This is where more livable, where more exciting. What's the truth of that? Do cities have cultures? Do they and are they different? Do they represent anything important to the people who live in them?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 05:42
Look, I mean, I've created the City Whisperer as a website and it's been around for a long time with my research. But at the front page there, it sort of like studies the malaise of cities rather than the glory of them. And that each city has its own culture and personality. And you've got to agree, like, just as an Australian, Melbourne versus Sydney versus Brizzy, you know, Brisbane, they're all pretty powerful cultures. They come from different historical backgrounds. And I also acknowledge the Indigenous backgrounds as well, obviously, because that's the heartland of our history. Yeah. But as we go into the colonial era and just the migrations through the wars and things like that, you know, set the cultures in these cities. And so I think that That's the quickest way I can answer. We can talk for hours about that. But I think it's undeniable that cities have their own culture. I was in Melbourne as I flew back from the symposium where I talked about all this. And Melbourne, like, it's just got this magnificent historical culture. It's like you're soaking it up as you walk down the street. They see Sydney as sort of like that upstart nouveau riche historically.. And but Sydney still has its lovely, beautiful historical areas. So, but yeah, soaking up Melbourne, I mean, and then the nightlife of Melbourne and things like that is wonderful. So yes, that's good.
John Milham (Host) · 07:09
Do you think people make a city's culture or does the city have a profound effect on the people?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 07:19
Look, I mean, you can go into, I can't remember all the philosopher names, but there's a philosopher who's basically saying that culture forms the built form, right? But then you get architects who create magnificent monuments, which then influence the culture back again. I wish I could remember the philosopher. There's people who'll be listening and go, oh, it's this guy. But that amazing sort of like view of people form cities, which is form the built form versus the city influences the people. It's like this loop. That goes on. And, you know, going through Melbourne and the old streets and then looking across the skyline. When I last was there, there were 10 high-rise buildings. Now there's, I don't even know how many. So things like that are happening as well, which aren't always great, but definitely an amazing culture. Sounds like I'm plugging Melbourne. I actually live in Sydney, guys. Okay. So just as a loyalist.
John Milham (Host) · 08:15
No, I love Melbourne. It's a fantastic place to visit. It's fantastic. So coming from Sydney. But, you know, each— I recognize they're very different. And that was always fascinating because I personally would wander through and really enjoy the differences rather than believe that they were a, you know, like they weren't good enough, right? I thank goodness they're different, right? Because it's very exciting to attend to those differences, right?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 08:44
Incredibly. And I did— going a little bit aside, did the Ocean Road, Great Ocean Road, and the tourist interest is unbelievable. We've got such, like, it's just to me, it's like, oh, it's only Sydney town, you know, it's Melbourne. What would the international community be interested in? That's a little bit of sort of 1950s logic. But like, they're just like, wow, look at this. And it wasn't just the Great Ocean Road with the apostles. It was, you know, through the cities and on the beaches and things like that. So it's lovely. Yeah. So very proud, I guess.
John Milham (Host) · 09:18
Yeah. Do you enjoy visiting cities? Is that like, do you sit there and have that sort of both the tourist and the researcher eye as well as, you know, is that how you embrace the process?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 09:32
Yeah. Look, there's part of my mind that just wants to relax on the research side, you know, because it's such a cognitive thing and you're looking around and starting to sound sort of like analytical and, you know, most people say, oh wow, that was amazing, wasn't it? And an academic says, that was very interesting. You know, we'll do an analysis of that now. So there's these two voices in my head though. Shut the hell up, research guy. Just love what you're seeing in the culture of the city and things like that. So, yeah. Beautiful.
John Milham (Host) · 10:02
I used to, when I, I worked in, in Sydney, in Sydney CBD, I remember there was a, you know, Grove and a place And, uh, and the Chifley Grovenor. Grovenor.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 10:13
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it.
John Milham (Host) · 10:15
Yeah. And, um, it, it was this post-industrial design with giant rivets and, and mecha, you know, sort of metallic flutes and things. And I remember, um, and in the middle of it they had built around a, a, a city, a historical building, right? Which is an old stables and, and stuff inside.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 10:38
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 10:39
So, and to me that was everything. It was a I felt like I was in Gotham City when I was on the outside and I walked in and I felt like I was in, you know, Whitechapel in London on the inside, right? It was, and I thought this is Australia, right? You know, like let's just build a building around it, right? So, yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 10:59
Well, I grew up doing my building degree at UNSW. I'm not just plugging UNSW, but it's just my history and and we had to go and see the MLC Tower being built.
John Milham (Host) · 11:11
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 11:12
And in those days they still had what's called dogmen.
John Milham (Host) · 11:15
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 11:16
I don't know if people know what a dogman is, but these guys, crazy guys who hang on the hooks of the cranes and go sort of like waving, move it over, mate, move it over to the crane driver. You know, I don't even know if they have dogmen anymore, but that was my history of how did they, Civil and Civic was the builder I don't think people know who that is anymore. But it's just the magnificence of these, how they built these high-rise buildings. And I became hooked. And I was part of, I guess, the professionals who were building those buildings. And, you know, so that was an amazing time in my life. And then in my research, I did things like I call it bamboo buildings. And I just described the phenomena of What the hell is happening here? What happened to the city? It's like bamboo shooting out. So I did that sort of, but that's a long time. That was probably in the '90s or 2000s. So, yeah, but fascinating stuff. Absolutely.
John Milham (Host) · 12:13
Is it important to manage cities from a cultural point of view? What does having a sense of working on culture as well as the physical aspects of city, what does that bring? To a place?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 12:28
I think they're embracing culture around place more. So the typical colonial view of place, obviously that's not in the modern era, had to be broken. And so definitely, obviously, disability— I'm sorry, inclusivity.
John Milham (Host) · 12:46
Yeah, yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 12:47
You know, cultural inclusivity and wonderful migration. And, and that culture coming in on it, it's coming in on the art galleries. You're seeing much more diversity on that and in public places and things like that. So definitely that, that's a main agenda item. And I think that probably, um, with both governments— I won't get all political in any way, but it's coming through the government infrastructure, right? They've been given the mandate and they're just doing incredible things. You just like, you wander by a park that was just at a couple of kid swings in it, and they still got those, but they've got these magnificent things as well that have been done by artists around cultural inclusivity and things like that.
John Milham (Host) · 13:29
So also too, like, I was just, uh, uh, talking to someone about, you know, the potential management of the climate as well. So, you know, we can create a, a more friendly, say, temperature map of a city. So in very hot times, which of course Australia will be dealing with increasingly, so, you know, bringing, uh, say, the, a natural weather system to a city That just blows me away.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 13:57
Well, look, the, the, that's a huge topic and there's landscaping groups are getting involved in the forest city, right? So before you build the building, high-rise building, you whack the plants around it, right? I'm being a bit crude. Yeah. But then, then the culture of landscape architects has kind of come through into, hey, let's build the forest and put the building in it. Now, I don't think they've got away with that. I don't, and I agree entirely with that. They don't, that's a force in itself. And that's so essential now to our climate change and things like that. So I hope that helps explain that one.
John Milham (Host) · 14:37
No, it's beautiful, right? And of course, there are, you know, can a city, right, support, say, non-architectural or non, you know, commercial activities as part of its culture? Like, One thing I was pondering on the idea of, say, free speech and protests. So like building a protest way in, you know, to promote that kind of, you know, the expression of free speech. Would, you know, would that help or would that create, you know, an addition or a benefit to the city?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 15:17
Look, absolutely. And at the moment we had the the Opera House incident, you know, where, you know, like 98% or 99% of the people who cared about Gaza, you know, then you have some idiots that cause strife and things like that. So the magnitude of that issue when you've got a huge international issue, we really saw that, you know, the guys were saying, hey, there's no back gate, you know, if there's a, there's a, people are flying around screaming, how do we get them out of there? And it was really valid, you know, but it did show— it's the first time I've seen scale of place.
John Milham (Host) · 15:56
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 15:57
Which I've always thought the Opera House is a pretty big open public space. It wasn't big enough for that. No. So that's a mega example. But then on the minor examples, how do you have a peaceful march and not have police attacked as well as, you know, traffic disruptions and commercial disruptions and yeah. All that. So having those as a designed element is a great idea. I'm not sure how to implement it in a fully grown city at the moment, but definitely on the cards, I think. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 16:30
And what are you looking forward to seeing, right? You know, it sounds like innovations are occurring and people are talking about this. What do you look forward when you're looking at City Whisperer, which is quite a task in of itself? Are you gathering and seeing trends? Are you looking forward to, you know, the, you know, mod— better modeling, better design.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 16:54
Look, look, I am, and it goes back to the property development factor because yes, our governments are the public developers of the city, public buildings and parks and all that stuff. But the rest is relied on by, you know, commercial land basically. And And so when I go, when I drive into Melbourne and I see what I used to be the Rialto Tower, I saw Melbourne with a couple of others and I mustn't have been there for a while because I said to my wife, oh my God, is this Melbourne? Because there were so many towers there. Now that's a sign of the population, their growth and all that sort of stuff. So it's needed as a city function. Okay, but it's just what I'm worried about, and I've been an advisor to government on this, is the accessibility to land by people who don't have the ability to do those buildings, but they're still trying. And so, and by that I say developers who have basically put their foot on the land 20 years ago or something like that, and then they don't have the commercial standards of the Tier 1 development and building groups, right? And they build nightmares. And so for— I won't go on too much, but I did a research project called The Defects Dilemma, which was recognized by government. And I did a video, it's called 10 Years of Dangerous Defects. And that video, if you looked at it today, it went across the world, including Grenfell Tower, Lacrosse Docklands, you know, Opal, the one in Miami, forgive me if I can't remember it. And it just is this amazing litany of neglect by people who are developing this and the authorities for allowing it to occur. So I'm hoping that my advocacy, which I did for a few years and I was up in national conferences, helped. But you kind of run out of steam when After a while, I'm 70 for God's sake. Okay. Someone else can do it. I'll give them some clues. Okay.
John Milham (Host) · 19:12
Yeah. So we're all standing on the shoulders of giants. So the hope is your legacy is that you had giant shoulders that someone can stand on for the next one.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 19:22
So, yes, I'm not feeling as giant as I used to be. Yes. Thank you for that. I'll take what I can.
John Milham (Host) · 19:29
So, of course, That brings us a little bit, right, when you sort of got, you know, the advocacy you had with cities and the construction industry, you know, you made a career out of that and so on. But one of the interesting things is your father being a World War II veteran, right? That as a young man is a, you know, you wouldn't sort of think about it as exceptional, but it has an exceptional impact on you as a child and, and then going through. And I— how, how do you think it changed your experience of childhood?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 20:13
Well, that's, that's a mega topic. And what I did to try and contain it, um, was to look at my father's war history, which was 6 years in the 3 major campaigns, which was North Africa, New Guinea, and then Borneo, you know, South Sea. Yeah, try to look at that and what the hell happened to him. And when you read his 1,000-word memoir, well, what happened was horror happened to him and all the other guys and people dying around him. When he rose in the ranks to warrant officer, he was sending his mates into battle and they were killed, moral injury. Like, it's just, I can go on and on. But anyway, that was the first glimpse.. And then what does that mean for him? You know, and in those days it was shell-shocked and, and that was kind of, it was, what was it, diminished? Uh, it was said to be a cultural issue.
John Milham (Host) · 21:04
Yeah. You know, you know, people of aristocracy don't have, yeah, certain people are susceptible with to it because they're not of the stock.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 21:13
Yeah. Of the stock. All that, that's the word from the language at that time. And there's some great things being written It's in my— anyway, the book that I did, there's some references there. So there's this, uh, what is it, combination of stoicism, uh, cultural discrimination. Um, you know, the soldiers were the lowest, and, and then there were the ranks mimicked aristocracy and things like that. Now, by the way, I don't want to have a go at the military in that sense because, hey, that system saved our country and saved our world and things like that. So that but that system is internally cruel, and that's come out in the recent Royal Commission. So anyway, I'll come back to that if we get time. But to answer your question, then I thought, look, what is the impact of that on me, and what is it on my family? Now, when I got into family, it's just too complex. So I just basically compartmentalized and said, from, from birth to age 18, right, what happened to me, uh, around my father. And there was no familial violence or, or physical violence. There's probably some coercive control and things like that by modern language. Yeah, but it was a great childhood and he was a great dad and he— and I felt safe in his house. Okay, um, but nonetheless, there were other, I guess, personality traits that I think were imposed on me And then, so I then analyzed what, what did my personality end up like? And I did a kind of comparison of those and what were some of the mental health things without getting too deep into it.
John Milham (Host) · 22:53
I love that reflection, right? So few men have gone through that experience.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 22:58
Yeah, yes, exactly. And it can be from non-familial violence through to just coercive control. It can just be that you were part of, you know, a father that, you know, didn't sleep well at night because he rightfully so, had nightmares and things like that. So, so I don't want to give grading of trauma, and I tried to keep that out of it. I kept clinical, and I'm not a mental health professional, okay? And, um, and so I did these two charts. What was his incidents in the war? What were my incidents as an up to 18? And then what were our kind of personality, mental health profile? And it came out with some amazing stuff., and as examples of that, you know, things like he, he was at a claustrophobic event of massive impact, being bombed in a hospital ship, right? Coming back out of Egypt and Libya. Yeah. After being bombed alive and buried and God knows what. So he had things like that happening, had claustrophobia, and I have claustrophobia, but I, knowing Dad, his claustrophobia was, 'I don't want to go to the theater.' My claustrophobia is, 'Can you please not leave the door shut when I go into a room with someone else?' You know, so no, we don't grade these, but these are totally irrelevant. But there's different intensities, uh, you know, asthma in the dad, asthma in me, things like that. I won't go through all the details now, but, and, um, they're certainly measurable, but there was no explanation even when I gave the talk at the symposium at Flinders Uni with Open Door, which are a great group anyway.
John Milham (Host) · 24:40
So here we have, like, I'm fascinated, you know, say the current generation, say Gen Z and Alpha, which is coming along now, right? They, you know, they have, you know, for all of the, you know, the challenges they seem to be facing in terms of coping with the complexity and variability of the world, right? They at least have a way of identifying that, right? Yeah, we've now given them the concepts of complex PTSD, of trauma, of adverse childhood experiences, right? That's all there. Your father, what an incredible, powerful presence that he could go through and suffer moral injury, suffer, um, real and, and prolonged trauma, keep turning up, keep performing, keep taking responsibility for his tasks and his people, come home, create, raise a family while carrying all of the echoes and impacts of those things., right? That generation truly was an amazingly tough generation. Do you, is that coming, did that come up? Did you recognize and admire that or was it something that led to your, wow, you know, that really impacted me?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 26:06
You know, there's a lot to be said for, I don't endorse it, but it was sort of like we didn't know about mental health. I didn't know what I was feeling. You know, we were let out during the morning and played on the street on a weekend, coming back at dusk, you know. It was, but on the back of that, it's sort of very stoic society. Children are seen and not heard. So in a way that creates like this protection envelope of some sort, but eventually you burst out of that. So, and especially as mental health categories, mental health literacy is coming in, it's sort of like, oh my God, that was me., you know, um, now an example is I have a, I had, uh, obsessive compulsive disorder. I still have it mildly. Yeah. And I, I would lie at bed at night trying to get to sleep, but I was moving the things around on my bedside table.
John Milham (Host) · 27:02
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 27:02
Until my dad yelled from the other room and said, stop fiddling around. And I didn't even know I was fiddling around.
John Milham (Host) · 27:07
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 27:07
But that was, and I didn't find out that was OCD until I watched a 60 Minutes report by Janne Vendt. If we remember Janne Vendt, I do. She interviewed this woman who was, um, she was brushing her teeth till they bled, you know, because of OCD. And, and it was then that I looked and I said, that's what I've got. I don't brush my teeth till they bleed. And I, I don't want to be disrespectful to that lady, um, but it was a major moment in my life. And, uh, so these things are revelations, and I think we're only I know that there's enlightenment with this, with all this mental health thing, but there's a long way to go as well. And people are sort of like being more internal, and I think that's wonderful. I don't know how to navigate the future of that, but I'm very positive about it, and I've learned so much about my story with my father as a result of all that as well. So yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 28:04
Did your father come to some realization about the impact his experiences had had on his life?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 28:10
There's two things and whenever I say there's two things, I then babble on and I can't remember the second. So just bear with me.
John Milham (Host) · 28:18
Okay.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 28:19
One was he had sent his friend, you know, in the memoir, it was him and Jack, you know, and they were sort of like mates and corporals and privates and then suddenly sent Jack into to Kokoda. Oh, wow. And Jack died because he'd raised above him in rank. So that, that was one. Now, in the second item was, wasn't until he was 90, I actually asked him, right, it took that long to, um, what, what therapy did you have? And he disclosed that his, his words were, he never stopped walking since that happened with that, with Jack. Yeah. And, and that was, I didn't ask him what that meant, but it was basically was kind of a little bit lost, well, a lot lost as a result of that. He carried that, some moral injury. I didn't even know what moral injury is until recently. Yeah, yeah. And it has a different classification to PTSD, all this sort of stuff. Anyway, yeah, so that, uh, he, he basically, he said that. And then I said, well, what did you do for therapy? And he said, I had a family. And that, and that was it. And that's, that was a huge moment, sort of like Part of me was angry. What, you used us for therapy? But then as time goes by, you go, okay, I get it. And what a wonderful thing that he was able to do that and be a great dad as well, you know. So it's a good positive story, you know, I think.
John Milham (Host) · 29:48
Oh yeah, I'm hearing, you know, you've mentioned Stoicism, which was kind of a common almost unconscious philosophy for, you know, particularly Australians. I imagine men around the Western world, particularly those who didn't have a lot of resources, right? Because it was based on virtue, it was based on forbearance and patience and learning wisdom at the cliff face, right? Like, you know, chipping away and bringing that lived experience wisdom. And it's kind of went out of favor, right? Because it, it created a vulnerability for men who got caught up in authority, you know, men, you know, with more authority would take advantage of that patience and forbearance, right? But my goodness, didn't it help men who really claim your— it sounds like your father had a bigger why than his trauma. And he—
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 30:49
a bigger what? Sorry.
John Milham (Host) · 30:50
A bigger purpose, a bigger why.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 30:53
Yeah, it did. And, but the other side of it is that Stoicism had its place in time and in history and it had, it got people through, you know, and mental health literacy now is getting, helping people get through. It's a little bit of the polar opposite to Stoicism, but it's another mindset culturally and in humanity. And maybe mental health will go too far. I don't know. I'm very grateful for it. And maybe there'll be a swing back, not to stoicism, that's too old school, but there might be some—
John Milham (Host) · 31:29
I call it stoicism 2.0.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 31:32
Or resilience is the new word.
John Milham (Host) · 31:34
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 31:35
And they're teaching resilience in schools, I believe, and with kids taking risks again. So rather than sort of like, so we just were allowed to fall out of trees. And then we kind of had the sessus and we go to the doctor or have dinner. And that's not playing. I don't want to see danger with the kids. But there's a part of life and as a child that risk-taking is important without it being, you know, with the guardrails is the new word. Okay. Which I like. So yeah, so those sorts of things. So is stoicism now, or resilience, the new stoicism? I don't know. It's worth thinking about, I guess.
John Milham (Host) · 32:15
I absolutely agree with you, that concept of, you know, because Stoicism also has a sense of moral review, right? The sense of having a code of virtue, of doing the right thing, which is, you know, an important place for us to sit at the moment with, you know, a lot going on. AI, you know, the nature of war changing and et cetera.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 32:41
So look, I think so. And I mean, I'd like to ask Gazans how they deal with, you know, is it stoicism? I don't know.
John Milham (Host) · 32:51
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 32:52
But boy, aren't they amazing. So, you know, I don't wanna get too much into geopolitics. Yeah. Because it's sort of pretty complex and, but yeah, maybe that's good. But what I'd like to see with men And there's another side of this, and it's not just about men because the research I'm doing on the soldier citizen and then moving into citizen society is for both genders and non-binary and all that sort of stuff. So what I'm saying is that I see a lot of hyper-male culture. Yeah. And it's not, I can't bear it on social media, but I also see it in pubs and things like that. And And like, there's, we've got a long way to go as a male culture with all that stuff. And, and, um, and I've grown up, I was like, I played footy and all that sort of stuff, but I never gravitated. I didn't feel I gravitated towards that sort of male hyperculture. And I'd love to see, I mean, there's great work, for example, that we've both been involved with, um, mentoring men and things like that. And I'd like to see that it's sort of softened a bit and for them to gain more social skills that integrate them with the broader society and not just be with mates and a bloody beer, you know, that has its place. Yeah. Okay. So it just kind of irritates me and I'm no stranger to those cultures, but I never felt really a part of it. So I don't know how you solve that or whether it needs to be solved. It's just my views, I guess.
John Milham (Host) · 34:24
Well, I think, you know, it's interesting that like so many men believe their growth stops, you know, when they leave school or uni, right? So, but it's interesting, right? We, you know, men are, need to keep evolving their personality, their, you know, their ability to manage themselves and others, their emotional intelligence, if you will, or their Um, you know, their actual intelligence, whatever, their social intelligence, all of those things. And yet we— there's no, you know, there's a, you know, apart from the men's movement or a few individuals, or, you know, uh, there wasn't any sort of intentional drive to do that, although that may be changing. Is that where you're looking at for the transition from soldier to citizen?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 35:15
Well, look, getting back to that soldier citizen, because that's, I guess, another main part of our discussion, is that I've learned not through direct— I've had direct access to two mentees, okay, who are trans in transition. And there was a lot of— oh gosh, it's such a complex subject. But basically there was this during— so you start as citizen, you become— go into the military, whatever which one that is., and then you come out in their eyes as civilians. And I analyzed that. I said, and I even said at the symposium, you know, what's the difference between civilian and citizen? When I looked it up in the dictionary, it's a really basic question. It's actually a military recognized term for people that they are protecting, right? Or, or navigating through a city.
John Milham (Host) · 36:08
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 36:08
Yeah. Right. And civilian, right? It's used in the military context if you look up the dictionary. And so I'm going, well, what's a citizen? And so citizen is what we all are, you know, of a state or a— and so that doesn't have that stigma. So what was discussed was that maybe there's a stigma related to citizens because they see them as a protectorate as they come out, even though they were citizens. Now that's the heart of my soldier-citizen study, and they become— they get in limbo. This is a theory. It's not an accusation or anything like that. But when I listened to all the wonderful other speakers and we talked about things like that at the symposium, and just as a by the way, it was Flinders University Open Door, which is a magnificent initiative, and I should really say thanks to those guys. And I'm able to give this sort of narrative that they're basically saying that there is this this change in mindset that's created through the, the survivalist and military system, which then is switched off. It, it's— they don't have a, uh, 3-month, uh, de-induction process. Like some of them say, we're just given a, you know, marching over the, you know, the, the greens and you know, and walk out the gate, right? Yeah. And they don't— one guy said they didn't even get a driver's license. Now again, I don't want to about the military because they're magnificent and they're protecting us, uh, but I guess the Royal Commission brought up that the— and it took the suicidality, internal suicidality level to go above the broader population for it to go bang. And there's some amazing advocates that help that. And, um, and it's painful for the military I know they're stoic and linear and hierarchical and brave and all that. It's nice hearing this stuff.
John Milham (Host) · 38:05
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 38:05
You know, this is our culture. And by the way, I got a glimpse because I was a cadet in high school and that was pretty serious guerrilla training and things like that. So I got a mini version and I got to be cadet under officer. So I got the hierarchical view, but nothing like being on deployment in Afghanistan, you know, but I've got glimpses of these things, you know. Which is—
John Milham (Host) · 38:28
that's so true. And likewise, and of course my, my wife was in the Army as well, so, um, so I, I would watch from a distance, right?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 38:39
And they are—
John Milham (Host) · 38:40
a soldier is, is very different. They have transitioned from citizen to soldier, right? As you, as you point out. And, and the work, you know, we, we all know, uh, you know, in sort of movies and books and common mythology, you know, that it's the drill instructor's job to break a soldier and remake him into a military man. And I find that really fascinating because there's no equal, well, let's break him and rebuild him as a citizen again on the way out, right? They do all that work to create a soldier and yet nothing to, you know, to deconstruct him. And bring him back to where he was.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 39:26
I think the culture—
John Milham (Host) · 39:27
sorry, not just him.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 39:28
Look, I agree, um, I agree partly because, um, they've created Department of Veteran Affairs. They've got— there's so many providers now, service provider, ESOs or whatever it is. And so, but that's sort of like, it's, it's as they go out, these kind— it's not just in the last last 3 months, you know. And there was, there was one of the speakers that talked about this, this sort of, uh, this lack of, uh, lack of adjustment. And yeah, and I don't even know if you can do it. Yeah, how can you do it? And especially since the, uh, these— some of these guys were recruited at 19, is it?
John Milham (Host) · 40:08
And, uh, yeah, yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 40:09
And so those are formative years, especially for young men. I think women are probably better at those cheeks than men. Um, and so they, they get— it reminds me of the pop band called Arrested Development. So it's sort of like they have this amazing development as a soldier, but then as a citizen, it's like this frozen state, and they find it really difficult. One of the mentees I talked to, I said, well, what's it— what do you think in corporate life? He said, the corporates worry about whether the printers run out of paper, which is a bit cute. But anyway, because they worry about more than that, mate. Okay. But, and he said, but we're worried about where our mates were in the battlefield and the body bags and things like that. It was just horrible, you know. So I really got a view, sort of like a slap in the face with that one. And so how do we as citizens get that lens? And probably we can't. So how do we do the transition into citizen life, not civilian life. Please let me use that term. And how do we do that? And no, I can't solve it all, but we can, I guess, identify what the issues are. And there'll be many people coming on it, I hope.
John Milham (Host) · 41:24
Do you think it should be part of the journey of a soldier? So, you know, should your father have been then sort of transitioned and supported back until he actually felt resolved at the end of his process. Because, you know, being, you know, like, it is an extraordinary effort to be by yourself and still manage to place all of those kind of baggage things in, you know, in, you know, a way enough to be able to function somewhat. You know, it's— I'm surprised more of them don't, don't collapse.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 42:00
Well, I think if we took the 1940— 1939 to '45 lens with the shell shock stigma, if I could call it that, and it is researched, um, that to actually come out as admitting you're shell shocked was stigmatic.
John Milham (Host) · 42:19
Yeah, yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 42:20
And so it's going to ruin your career. Yeah. You're not going to get married, you're not going to bring a family up. And so they were trapped in that. And so they used stoicism to get through it. They created families and that was therapeutic. I'm being general, okay? But it's my memoir, not memoir, but that story. Now take that now, the mental health literacy across military and non-military is massive. The only problem with it is there's too bloody much of it. Trying to soak it up when I was at the symposium for a day. I, like, I definitely needed a glass of wine at the end of it. It's pretty intense stuff. And, uh, and those guys are like heroic, just bringing all this stuff up. There was one military fellow in the other, more than one military fellow who's still serving. And he said, you know, this is amazing. We get our own version of this inside the military, which is helpful, but this is like from the outside looking in. And I've learned so much today about how civilians look, look at us. So that was a bit of a clue as well. That's pretty amazing.
John Milham (Host) · 43:30
So, and of course, this, this issue, this very discussion is germane to some massive problematic, uh, events happening, right? So someone, uh, told me yesterday that they estimate 80% of the adult male population of Ukraine are suffering from PTSD.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 43:53
Horrible. Yeah. I mean, how do you, how do you deal with that? And how do you deal with the ongoing genetic and, and epigenetics? I mean, epigenetics is, is something we talk, talk about intergenerational trauma, right? Yes. Sorry.
John Milham (Host) · 44:09
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the epigenetics, you know, their experience, their DNA is being changed by this total immersion. And of course, they've done a magnificent job finding a why, finding purpose in there, in their true— in that keeps them going through trauma. But, you know, at the end of this, uh, the, the non-visible damage is going to be massive.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 44:36
Absolutely. And generational. And, and, um, I still think the war, even World War II, has has generational impacts. And I say in the book that I was out playing golf and a golfer, we were talking about this stuff and she said she was Irish. Sorry for having that Irish twinkle in my voice there, but I'm Irish heritage. And she said, yeah, it's said that we carry 7 generations on our shoulders. And I go, what do you mean? But then I got it.. And, um, so yeah, there's, because of the DNA chemistry, I guess, and I'm no scientist in that area, um, it's logical that we're, we're sort of like carrying forward with the genetics of, of several generations. And sometimes your child can resemble someone who's the grandfather, you know, things like, so there's the sort of maybe a, a real life sort of example. Yeah. Um, and things like that. Uh, and also your child, when you didn't have any, you were, you brought them up in a safe house and all that, still have, has some, you know, depression or something like that. How the hell did that happen? I brought them up perfectly, you know.
John Milham (Host) · 45:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 45:48
But there's undercurrents that we don't understand, I guess, in terms of DNA. And, and that's a long way to go yet. Uh, but great to identify it, you know. And that's amazing to hear that PTSD in Ukraine. I mean, it's horrible.
John Milham (Host) · 46:03
Yeah, incredible. How do you think, you know, speaking of generations, how have you operated as a father, as a husband, as a member of community?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 46:16
Well, I tried to, I guess, provide a safe house and which I did for my family. And also there's a lot of, I put education pretty high on the list and trying to understand pathways. And I think the pathways was maybe looking back the main one, you know, things like, you know, we got a guitar and played music. We, it wasn't just, hey, let's go and become an accountant or something like that. I wrote poetry, for example, and like, what? Dad writes poetry. He gets emotional when he reads it. What the hell? And it's sort of like, I'm hoping that wasn't traumatic., but, but it's nonetheless, it's sort of like, oh, I could do this. And so I, I, I can't talk about my children. I, I prefer not to, but that in terms of the general family, that was the pathway that I, I tried to bring in.
John Milham (Host) · 47:12
Mm-hmm.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 47:12
And that had been spurred by my father's pathway venture because when I, I write in the book, I call it the laundry sink episodes where he hadn't even finished his HSC. He felt that he went in as a private in the army and he was not very, you know, it wasn't a highly intellectual student. Don't want to be sounding snobby, but anyway, that's what he said. And so he wanted us, he thought that he needed to show us pathways into science and also mainstream careers. And that was his 1960s thing. So we'd go to the laundry sink and play chemistry sets for God's sake, you know, at age 10 or something. Like, you know, imagine a 10-year-old chemist, you know, but no, it cracked the imagination and curiosity. Then it was Julius Sumner Miller. He was the only guy, professor who had a TV show and why is it so? Why is it so? And yeah, so anyway, I'm in a rave mode there, but that little episode in the laundry sink went bang and then it played on into bringing up my family, my kids, and I could call it the cabana culture, which is we had a cabana we put up in the backyard and I was in there and I was running my own business out of it. But I also made sure there's lots of books and lots of things to learn and That sounds— I hope that helps a little bit.
John Milham (Host) · 48:47
Well, it does, and it's fascinating because, and it's also triggering because, you know, I wish I was better at that myself. I see some aspects of, you know, of what I, you know, experienced, what I wanted to experience, and then what I wanted to provide, right? And, uh, you know, yeah, I think, uh, you've done a— you know, that sounds like an amazing childhood. So well done. Um, obviously there's always ups and downs, right? We're humans.. But I love that idea that both reflection and curiosity are the way out of much of this, you know, kind of generalized trauma environments.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 49:33
It's a very good point, John. Okay, you kind of hit on to two themes there from the talk. And so reflection is a form of therapy, like it's recognized now. And to give you the Stoic version, it'd be, I'd say to Dad, I'm just writing a poem, Dad. And he said, oh, it's a great poem, but don't stare at your navel. I said that to one of the other people that's supposed to be talking about it. And I said, well, that don't, don't dwell on these, you know, get on out there, you know, I mean, it's a nice poem, but you need to make money, you know, and things like that. So, so the, um, here, yeah, Curiosity, sorry, In Reflection. So that, and I have to say, right, is the, the book that wowed it for me was Brightside Revisited.
John Milham (Host) · 50:28
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 50:28
Wow. People won't even know what it is.
John Milham (Host) · 50:30
Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 50:31
So old. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 50:32
Aloysius, my favorite character.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 50:35
Exactly. So, and, and so I've got, I'm forgetting the actual name of the author. He's my favorite and I'm having moments. I'll think of it in a minute. But it started with a reflection of a soldier who was going to deployment in these sort of like new suburbs, you know, which we're talking about. Dare they build houses out here? It used to be, you know, farms.. And then he sees this castle and then the whole mood just shifts, you know, and, and suddenly you're just drawn into this history of what happened at Brideshead. And I've never got over that. When I write now, right, Evelyn Moore is there.
John Milham (Host) · 51:15
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 51:16
Is the author.
John Milham (Host) · 51:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 51:18
And that reflective, but also he melded kind of like boring observations, like, oh, what's he going? And then bang, he's the hammer you.
John Milham (Host) · 51:27
And, uh, and then there's, anyway, I'm, uh, I think because Evelyn Waugh was deeply impacted by conflict and war.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 51:35
Yes, exactly.
John Milham (Host) · 51:36
Exactly.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 51:37
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 51:37
So, and I wonder, you know, a pathway. So in our, in our suffering, you know, is in our trauma is often insight and wisdom learnt, right? Um, if you can get it out and move and then put yourself together again type thing, you know, not the same, a bit like Kintsugi, right? We bring the mortar in and become more beautiful because we're scarred and put back together.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 52:11
Look, I think that's a heartland theme of what's happened today with our discussion and or our narrative and our storytelling. Yeah. And And so yes, reflection. And I can see with Kintsugi Heroes that storytelling is so important. And, um, and it— and I guess my story today has helped with that, which is great. Or it's helped me to understand that as well. And also, yeah, as a foundation of mental health awareness, reflection's big. And, and, uh, there were life writers. Oh, one lady was a life writer. I'm going, what's a life writer? And so, you know, she'd been writing since she was a kid, little diaries and journals. And we've done all that. What are you talking about? Stoicism? You know, this is, she said, no, this is the, you bring, come back 20 years later and it's self-awareness and oh, was I like that? Why did I do that? So life writing is a thing. It may have been for years and I've missed the boat.
John Milham (Host) · 53:09
Oh, it's new to me.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 53:11
Wow. My Walkfather, which I just released, is life writing. And I always thought of it as memoir, but memoir is, one of the ladies said, it's a memoir at a certain point in time, but life writing is a continuous narrative. So, hey, wonderful. So, and then curiosity, you asked about curiosity too. What was that one?
John Milham (Host) · 53:34
So, well, it's the way of part of putting ourselves back together in trauma. So managing and placing it you know, the idea of not just being, you know, being curious about what's happening to us, but also being curious about how that's impacting our family and the community and others who are going through a similar experience. Curiosity can help us find normalization. Acceptance can help us find our purpose to serve others, which is a very healing kind of mindset. From my perspective.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 54:10
That's actually a really, really good, good, um, concept, and I hadn't thought of it that way. Um, and I have to say, one of the things that I'm interested also, and this has happened across our generations and across, I think, all families, is a disconnection and estrangement. And so that, that has run through our family, and, um, one of the things that I like to research as I go, but I do it sort of little bits here and there.
John Milham (Host) · 54:39
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 54:40
Um, is that the curiosity may be part of that, to see what happens if you have estrangement, it's sort of locked away. And so rather than that, just go, let me do, pull up on Google a paper on why do people, I'm curious about, um, estrangement, right? Or depression or whatever it is. And, and and then get another person's view. So I really agree with that and that was really helpful to think that way too.
John Milham (Host) · 55:09
Yeah, brilliant. And just before we go, I wanna ask you about mentoring because, you know, you had a, you know, a long, you know, you've had several years associated with mentoring men, which is, you know, being available for another man who, you know, is going, you know, is going through life. So you're like a real life, life writer, but you're there, you know, talk, you know, being available on the spot. And of course you were mentoring with Soldier On and, you know, and stuff, which is what drew you to the concept of mentoring. And now that you have done quite a bit of it in some really challenging areas, how do you feel about mentoring?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 55:54
Mentoring to me is it's really essential that the men who are being mentored have to own it. Mentoring Men's doing a lot of work in, you know, getting guys to naturally meet, you know, go on walks and they've got a sponsoring a walk group as well. So I think that's really good. It's sort of like, where are the women? Right? And so it's a good environment, but it's in a way, it's a retreat environment.
John Milham (Host) · 56:24
Yeah.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 56:26
The world exists with men, women, and non-binary and all those things. And so where are the other people and how do we deal with that? And no, I don't expect Mentoring Men to solve that. It's just to me, I've always sort of like cringed at too many blokes in one room. And it's just sort of like it's something that I just don't feel comfortable with. I don't know, maybe I've got some issues with that.
John Milham (Host) · 56:52
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we can, I can mentor you out of that one. That's right.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 56:58
So please, that sounds good. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 57:02
No, that's fascinating. And I think there's so much we have to begin somewhere and men are a long way behind in terms of understanding and building the skills of reflection and the skills of curiosity. In a complex community, particularly their own education has not been supported, right? And the Army's a great example of that. Get out there, become the efficient fighting machine the community needs. But when you're surplus to requirements, we don't want to know too much about you, right? And thank goodness for the heroes like yourself and and the others you talk about at Open Door and so on. So brilliant stuff.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 57:49
Yeah. And I have to say, the Open Door guys, so guys like Ben Wadham and, you know, Andrew Prevert, Kieran Toey, you know, they were behind the research in the Royal Commission. And like, I was reading it, it's open source, you know, and it's like a horror bibliography. I don't say that that's a bad thing. They It's just, I don't know how they sat through it and listened to the story. So, yeah, so they're amazing and they've created Open Door and there's a lot of other guys and groups that do these things. But I have to plug and I'm not aligned in any way. I'm not employed or it's just, I came in as a guest, I guess. So I wanted to just sort of say how wonderful that is.
John Milham (Host) · 58:35
Well, they were lucky to have you because you've really helped, you've offered so much of interest and so much signposting for me to explore further, right? So it's been awesome to talk to you today. One, your book, My War Father, is now published.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 58:55
It is, yes.
John Milham (Host) · 58:56
And if people are interested or have an experience in their own world, right, how do they get hold of your My War Father?
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 59:05
Like I said, it's on Amazon. It's just an ebook at the moment. And it's just like, you know, Amazon says you should be doing this at $4.99 or something. So it's a cup of coffee, as you know, some people have said to me. And so, and it's only 50 pages or something like that. And so they can do that. For researchers, there's a PDF that I issue for university researchers and for media as well. But that's how they get there. And if you just look up My War Father John Drayndt, it'll all be there.
John Milham (Host) · 59:40
And they can subscribe to the City Whisperer as well.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 59:44
I haven't got a subscription thing. I use, I've tried it and I didn't have the patience, unfortunately. I just couldn't do it. When I was younger, I had a go. Anyway, so I just have, you know, there's a thing called an RSS feed. It's like ancient technology. And so people now, in fact, apps are coming back. So what that is, is if you do a new, if you register a website on the RSS app, then it gives you a notification, hey, John or whoever has just done a new post or something like that. So I've stuck to RSS and look, I'll give my email address on the webpage there for Soldier Citizen if you, they wanna send me an email, they're welcome to.
John Milham (Host) · 1:00:28
Fantastic. That's, um, yeah, and that, that research is awesome. And, uh, I'm so glad you've been able to share a little bit of it today. And, uh, My War Father, I, I've started reading, and I, I, I'm, you know, I find it, um, wonderful to tap into that time and try to unlock the experiences. And as I said, I think your father was an extraordinary man. And I'm so glad we got to talk to you also. Extraordinary. Thank you, Jonathan.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 1:00:58
Thanks, John. Love being here and thank you for listening to me. I go on a bit every now and then, but, you know, I really appreciate it.
John Milham (Host) · 1:01:05
That's the whole purpose, mate. We fill the time with going on a bit, right? So, but I think it's, I think there's so much value there, mate. So, yeah, we'll talk soon. All the best and much appreciated.
Jonathon Drane (Guest) · 1:01:17
Okay. Thanks, John.
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