James Pearson · 58 min
A man who masked decades of depression behind corporate ambition discovers that his darkest moments were actually signals pointing him toward his true purpose as a coach and teacher.
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James Pearson came to Australia for the Olympics in 2000 and stayed. For 25 years, he chased promotions in recruitment, measuring his worth in titles and income. His 20s and 30s were driven by achievement. Then everything collided at once: a job change, a difficult manager, the birth of his first child, and the weight of being the sole income earner. That's when his depression, which he'd managed alone since his late teens, hit its lowest point. No one saw it. At work and in public, James was the extrovert, the life of the party. At home, he was drowning.
What shifted him was fatherhood. Becoming a dad changed how James thought about time. Instead of 3 and 6-month goals, he suddenly saw 40 years ahead: he wanted to see his grandchildren. Seven years after attending a Tony Robbins event with his wife, James went back alone and realized something crucial. His mental health, his emotions, his life, were his responsibility. Not the world's. He started small: getting up early to dance, meditate, and journal. Small repeatable actions that moved him from a minus-10 towards a plus-1 or plus-2.
After two decades in corporate, James left six months ago to coach and teach full-time. He now uses his own story to help others understand that depression isn't a defect. It's a signal. Dark days are feedback, telling him he's deviated from his path or is holding unrealistic expectations. His mission, he realized by looking back at his life in five-year chunks, has always been teaching. Teaching combined with his lived experience of mental health is where his purpose lives now. He's building a life aligned with what energizes him, not what secures him.
“I can't believe you've had suicidal ideation. Like, you know, that just not knowing when you're alone, how low you can feel, how lonely, how lacking of energy, just how negative the mindset can get. Yeah. It was just I guess it was exhausting, but that's no one saw it.”
“The more I removed the mask, I could call that being vulnerable. I could call that being honest. The more I did that, the better I started to feel.”
“I don't want any more promotions. And I can feel that as I'm saying it. It felt so liberating to admit that to myself.”
The hero, today
James learned that mental health challenges, the depression and waves of low mood he experienced since his late teens, were signals telling him something was wrong with how he was living, not defects in himself. He discovered that taking responsibility for his emotions, rather than blaming his circumstances, gave him a sense of agency: I'm not helpless, I can do something about it. The more James removed the mask of who he thought he should be and showed his real struggles to the people in his life, the better he started to feel. James sees dark days now not as failures but as feedback, signals that he's deviated off his path, hasn't spoken his mind, or is holding unrealistic expectations about someone else. His shift from chasing promotions for status to building a life aligned with his values, teaching, coaching, and being present for his family, came only after things got bad enough that he had to look for another way.
Yes. James Pearson is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
James learned that mental health challenges, the depression and waves of low mood he experienced since his late teens, were signals telling him something was wrong with how he was living, not defects in himself.
He discovered that taking responsibility for his emotions, rather than blaming his circumstances, gave him a sense of agency: I'm not helpless, I can do something about it.
The more James removed the mask of who he thought he should be and showed his real struggles to the people in his life, the better he started to feel.
James sees dark days now not as failures but as feedback, signals that he's deviated off his path, hasn't spoken his mind, or is holding unrealistic expectations about someone else.
John Milham (Host) · 00:05
Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. In this episode, John Millum is joined by James Pearson. James has had a unique journey from his roots in the UK to building a life in Australia. Originally in the corporate world, James struggled with mental health challenges but learned to see them as signals to rethink his path. A turning point came with fatherhood and a renewed perspective on life's possibilities. Embracing authenticity, James shifted his focus from chasing promotions to aligning his work with his true values. Now a committed coach and teacher, James uses his own life lessons to guide others on their personal growth journeys, offering support and sharing the power of resilience. Enjoy this one with James Pearson.
James Pearson (Guest) · 01:07
So ladies and gentlemen and Kintsugi Heroes listeners, welcome to another Kintsugi Heroes podcast for stories that matter. And as always, it's a great privilege for us today to speak to a guy who, you know, has a corporate background, but has also taken lived experience from his journey and turned that into a desire, a mission to help others and to walk with others through stuff that he's experienced himself. James Pearson, welcome to Contiki Heroes.
John Milham (Host) · 01:41
Thanks, John. Thanks for having me.
James Pearson (Guest) · 01:43
It's a great pleasure to have you on today. And interestingly, we've had a few people who have shared on Contiki Heroes who originated in the UK. I wonder if it's because you guys are better storytellers, right? Or is it just like the weather creates environments for sort of dramatic situations?
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This conversation includes a recruiter from the north of england, chasing promotions and status, everything got worse at once, the mask nobody saw, fatherhood shifted his time horizon and taking responsibility at a tony robbins event.
John Milham (Host) · 02:03
Australians tell me that UK is a pretty sort of depressive place to live. So I don't know if that's what it is. But yeah, I mean, John, I came out here just on holiday for the Olympics and never left. I had no intention of staying. And look, here I am 25 years later.
James Pearson (Guest) · 02:19
Unbelievable. That's, you know, That's fantastic. I wonder, you know, when you came out here, how come you were in a position to have, you know, have the holiday in Australia and then decide, hey, I'm going to take advantage of this long summer?
John Milham (Host) · 02:34
It's a great question that I didn't really ask myself until years later when other people started raising this to me, as in, because I, you know, I'd worked in bars, I'd worked in shoe shops. But I came straight from uni. I came straight from uni. I had a politics and economics degree, but it wasn't like I'd been to Oxford and finished top of the class in medicine or something. So I was working in recruitment, which was really just a way to earn some drinking money for Kutchy Beach. And then fortunately, I guess in hindsight, my team leader said, have you ever thought about recruitment as a career? Now, I didn't go to university to be a recruiter. I didn't really know anything about it. But whenever she said, we'll sponsor you to stay in the country, I was like, yeah, it's what I've always wanted to do.
James Pearson (Guest) · 03:27
So you were a 457, Paul?
John Milham (Host) · 03:29
Exactly. Exactly.
James Pearson (Guest) · 03:31
Yeah. So of course, when you say you didn't go to Oxford to do medicine, but you did go to Oxford and do business.
John Milham (Host) · 03:40
I did, I did. I went there, I got into a part of investing which we may come to later on that's called impact investing, where you're not only investing to make a return but you're also investing to make a positive impact. And Oxford University has got a great number of courses there on impact measurement and management and around investing. It's quite a burgeoning area of investments over the last 10 years as sustainability has become more prominent. So yeah, I was fortunate to spend some time there and learn from pretty smart people.
James Pearson (Guest) · 04:13
Is it the environment? Is that like, do you learn just because you're at Oxford?
John Milham (Host) · 04:19
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Listen, I'm from the north of England, so I had a bit of chip on my shoulder about the old buildings and things like that. So it took me a few days to just fully feel comfortable being there.
James Pearson (Guest) · 04:33
Growing up in the north of England, when you came to Australia, was it like, oh my goodness, this is different, or oh my goodness, yes, I'll take this?
John Milham (Host) · 04:43
Yeah, I didn't know what had hit me. It's funny, I got some tickets for some Olympic events and I didn't attend any of them. Some of the periphery events, I'm not talking 100-meter gold or anything, but periphery events. I much preferred hanging in the Coogee Bay Hotel or on Coogee Beach during that time, if I'm honest. I mean, I still say it to my wife and kids, like, I still feel like I'm on holiday here when I go to the beach and see some of the beautiful scenery and country that we have here. It was totally different to anything I'd experienced from the north of England. And I stayed and I got a job and then job turned into another job and then you have a girlfriend and a wife and then a house and a mortgage and kids and dogs and then here we are 25 years. I never thought I would still be here. Never. I remember, in fact, when I left with my 55-liter backpack on, my mum was crying. I'm like, Mum, I'm only going for 6 months. I've been at university for 4 years. I'll be back. And she just said she had a feeling I wouldn't return. And like, mums typically know. She was right.
James Pearson (Guest) · 05:47
Wow. I love that. You just listed a checklist, really, for, like, issue a young bloke who's just out of uni, right? And that trip abroad and then house and girlfriend and wife and family, like the checklist. Does it feel like a checklist? Or like when you came here and you go through the corporate expectation, was that like, was that your aim? Or was there a sense of achieving something? Or was there a sense of going with the flow?
John Milham (Host) · 06:16
I think I'm always— and the reason why I'm pausing is because with the work I've done the last 10 years, I look at my background in a different way to maybe I did when I was in it. However, if I go back to being in it, it was really about achievement and status. It was about maximizing income and finance, being in finance where there was money to be made. It did feel like it was an expectation on self, not necessarily from anyone else, but just I've gone to uni now, I've got a degree. Okay, now you go and get a job and keep getting those promotions. And if you don't get the promotion, you change job to get another promotion. It felt a lot like that at the time.
James Pearson (Guest) · 07:00
I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing. It seems to be that time of life. But what are we missing? Is there a different way of doing it? If you walk into who you are now and as you look back on that, was there an opportunity missed?
John Milham (Host) · 07:16
Yeah, whether there's an opportunity missed, I guess I will never know and I wouldn't want to change anything between now and then. That being said, if, you know, it's funny, I was speaking to someone the other day about the work I'm doing, and a lot of my clients are middle-aged like me and are looking to maybe reposition their life for various reasons. And I sort of said, wouldn't it be great to go back to meet those 18 to 22-year-olds and share some of the learnings that we've got about what we would maybe do different? And, you know, my focus with my kids, for example, is do what you love. Do what you enjoy and the rest will follow. Whatever that rest is, it's not necessarily about maximizing income. It's just do what energizes you, what you're going to get out of bed every day to do. For me, my jobs, although I enjoyed the environment and the salary and the experiences, I wasn't bouncing out of bed every morning because I couldn't wait to get in and focus on that vocation. It was more about the people.
James Pearson (Guest) · 08:18
So what was, you know, as you made through, you know, going back to that time and as you looked forward, what were you looking forward to? What did you want out of life?
John Milham (Host) · 08:30
I think it was the stereotypical family, mortgage, next promotion. You know, it's interesting reflecting I remember when I made an agreement with myself internally and then publicly where I said to my boss, I don't want any more promotions. And I can feel that as I'm saying it, it felt so liberating to admit that to myself. I didn't want the next level because with that level came more stress, more responsibility and things because I wasn't on purpose, on mission in those roles. I didn't want that just for the sake of the, of the increased status or increased salary. And that was so liberating for me. Like, I had a job the last 10 years in corporate that I really loved. It was mission-aligned, it was using my knowledge, and it felt very different.
James Pearson (Guest) · 09:28
How do you know? How did you understand that? You're like— today I was talking to some guys, you know, about the, the— how very few men might know what their values, their core values are, what their top priorities are in life. Yeah, how did you find them?
John Milham (Host) · 09:46
Well, like many of us who make change and have forks in the road, it takes things to get really bad for you to do the work and scrutinize and explore, looking for another way, a path out, for want of a better phrase, at that point in time for me. Yeah, I'd say that was it.
James Pearson (Guest) · 10:06
So what was happening? What was getting bad?
John Milham (Host) · 10:08
Yeah, I think when you're in your 20s— so what am I, 47 now? So when you're in your 20s and you're chasing the next role and the commissions or the paychecks, and maybe you're single and it's social, they're fulfilling for you. But as I got into my 30s and I started thinking about the future and settling down with my now wife, priorities shifted. And expectations, I think. You know, we— if I think about the— and I'd always suffered with mental health challenges on and off through since I was a late teen. I, to be honest, John, I didn't know any different, right? You didn't really speak about it and you just assumed everybody went through these waves of up and down, etc. And it got really bad. And I think it was a confluence of things, really. It was my job was changing at work from something I knew and was enjoying to going to be something different and With that came a new manager who we clashed a little bit. So my work environment wasn't what I was used to. We were expecting our first child, and that was the thing, right? As the primary income earner, I didn't feel like I could just quit and do what I wanted to do or change direction because we needed to pay mortgages and provide. So I think that pressure at that point in time was was when it got really bad for me. And I remember the reason why I can reference my lowest point is because it was my daughter's 10 and a half, and it was that first 6 months of her life as you just throw in this extra chaos into an already what felt chaotic life. And then that was probably my lowest low. And that's when I looked for another way, which I was fortunate to find.
James Pearson (Guest) · 11:52
Do you mind if I ask you about— you mentioned having the mental fitness or mental well-being challenges, right, as a teenager. Like, as you said, you know, like, no one really sort of talks about it, at least in that— at that time. What was different for you?
John Milham (Host) · 12:10
I think it was when I was alone. I felt a very different person when I was alone. Like, people, even people now would say, I can't believe you had depression. I knew you in your 20s. I can't believe you've had suicidal ideation. Like, that, that, that just not knowing when you're alone, how low you can feel, how lonely, how lacking of energy, just how negative the mindset can get. Yeah, it was just, I guess it was exhausting, but that's— no one saw it.
James Pearson (Guest) · 12:43
So you were managing that. What was the process you had in place to keep yourself present? Right. Because, you know, with all of that going on, you still got through. So what was the key to that?
John Milham (Host) · 12:57
Yeah, it's a great question. It's something I thought of often. It's like the thing that I had to force myself to do, like go to work or go play football and things when I didn't feel like it. They were actually the things that helped me. They distracted me. They engaged me. It wasn't like I was playing football and thinking about depressive thoughts and things, or when I was at work, not necessarily. It was the quiet times, which I guess was maybe the payback or the trade-off for the amount of energy it was taking for me in public to stay. Because most people would have called me an extrovert or maybe even a bit of a life of the party type. So that was clearly taking a lot of energy for me sometimes when it wasn't as natural. You'd pay for that when I was on my own.
James Pearson (Guest) · 13:45
Such an interesting idea, isn't it? It's like you're wearing the mask, but it's a really healthy version of the mask, and the authentic self is the one who's suffering.
John Milham (Host) · 13:53
Yeah.
James Pearson (Guest) · 13:54
Did you see yourself as struggling, or was that just like your everyday?
John Milham (Host) · 14:01
No, I honestly— I mean, obviously at the extremes in reflection, and you sometimes blur your memories with where you are now, but I just didn't like it, but I just sort of felt everyone else must be going through the same thing. We're talking here like early days of the internet, early days of mobile phones. Your social network in your teens, early 20s is about drinking and girls and the gym and football. You weren't thinking then, should I test whether how I'm feeling is how everyone else is feeling? You just assume everyone else is like you.
James Pearson (Guest) · 14:37
When did it become a challenge? When did you need to deal with things?
John Milham (Host) · 14:40
I would say, I mean, I had sort of traditional therapy counseling on and off since my late teens into my 20s, which I can't say now whether it was helpful or not. All I know is it didn't shift things permanently for me, but it did help to have someone to talk to who understood, who you didn't feel was judging. And so I know there was periods when I saw a counselor, so I know that they were the periods in my memory where I must have needed some outlet, but it wasn't continuous. It was sort of pockets over that time. But I think ultimately it was becoming the dad. Becoming the dad, that was the shift for me. One thing that I don't know if others say, but what happened for me when I became a dad is my time perspective changed. I'd been the guy who'd set goals for 3 months and 6 months and And then suddenly I realized I want to be a granddad. I want to see my grandkids. And so suddenly, if you're looking at a 40-year basis, you can achieve anything, you can do anything, you can change anything with that time frame in mind. So that was a real shift for me.
James Pearson (Guest) · 15:46
How did you approach it? Did you reach out to someone or did you start reading or something like that?
John Milham (Host) · 15:52
Yeah, I, I, I, you know what my biggest memory is like that? I want to say 7 years before this time that we're talking about, I'd gone to a Tony Robbins event. My wife had got tickets. I'd never heard of the guy. We went along, we had a fun weekend, we took away some interesting things. It wasn't about mental health for us. It was just about doing something as a couple, something different. And we both like learning and personal development. Roll on 7 years later, having not really thought about that since when I was in this place. I remember I was at a really nice restaurant in Sydney with some finance friends with the mask on, but feeling not great. And the guy next to me said, oh, I've got a 2-for-1 ticket for one of Tony's events. And I was like, oh, I've been before, my wife and I enjoyed it years ago. And he's like, oh, do you want to come with me? I've got no one else to take. And so I just said yes. And that was quite a pivotal weekend for me that weekend. And the thing that I remember shifting for me is recognizing that my mental health, my triggers, my emotions were my responsibility. I'd been a bit of a blamer up until then. I'd been sort of blaming the world, the woe is me, I missed out on the— a little bit of that sort of, let's generalize, that victim sort of language. And and there wasn't really any of that at this event. And then it was about taking responsibility and that. And that— what, you know what that gave me? It just gave me a sense of, oh, I'm not helpless here. I can do something about it.
James Pearson (Guest) · 17:30
You know, it's interesting. This always happens, right? Today I was talking, I was on the radio and we're talking about being at cause, which is that idea that, you know, you can have, you know, A lot of people just talk about how the world made them do something or be something, right?
John Milham (Host) · 17:50
Yeah.
James Pearson (Guest) · 17:51
And it's a form of disempowering yourself.
John Milham (Host) · 17:55
Absolutely.
James Pearson (Guest) · 17:56
But it's hard to change, right? You know, like we've practiced that, the dialogue of, oh well, you made me get angry, or this, you know, the environment or the mortgage is holding me back, right? How did you embrace the idea? Right. So there you suddenly said, oh, blimey, I have the power to make a change. How are you going to do that?
John Milham (Host) · 18:18
I guess there's lots of things and strategies that I've learned over the 10 years. So where am I at now? I think about— it's funny we're talking about this because I have to think about where I was 10 years ago when I want to help clients on the same journey. It's no good me sort of saying, hey, here's where I am now after 8 years later, 10 years later. It's like, actually, where was I? And I remember the first thing I did was— and I really want to help people master their mental health, not just manage it. However, just managing is the first phase, right? Recognizing and then learning some tools or techniques. I think for me, I was getting up in the morning and doing some dancing. This idea that when you change your body, it can change how you feel. Putting on a song I liked, you know, and I called it dancing. I don't think anyone else would call it that, but it was just, I can click my fingers with the best of them, John. But it was like, okay, I can set my alarm half an hour earlier and I can get out of bed and I can do some meditating and I can do a little bit of dancing or journaling. And these things just help shift your focus, shift your energy. Now, they might have been temporary, but if I was doing it every day, It was supporting me.
James Pearson (Guest) · 19:35
I love that. The first step of reflecting on where you are. Did you have a clear idea of what was possible? Like, you know, like I get a sense that so many people sort of sign up to all of the hype, right? 10 times your performance and, you know, fix your life and, you know, empower your days, right? And high motivation stuff. I'm not, you know, I'm pretty convinced that that's a load of cobblers. Right. But so how, what are you aiming for?
John Milham (Host) · 20:04
I think I bought into a little bit of the hype and a little bit of the one-sidedness of life. I will use that term. And I like to think that I've sort of developed since then and see life a lot differently. But I do think at that time I was buying into this idea that you can just sort of jump around and be happy and that's all it takes. Obviously, that's not the case in my view now. I think there's other layers to it, but it definitely felt like it was a first step to take some responsibility and take some small actions that are manageable and repeatable to just shift me from a -10 to a -7 or sometimes a +1 or +2, just to start seeing what's possible. But at that time, I didn't really have any role models as to someone who's being where I've been and now somewhere different. I didn't have any role models for that. I just knew that I felt better.
James Pearson (Guest) · 21:00
I like that idea of role models. Who inspires you in this? Like, now that you've sort of gone, okay, I'm, you know, I need to engage with the world slightly differently, you know, I'm imagining that, you know, your previous sort of collection of heroes is not quite as relevant now as the new, you know, you need to find a new collection. Where do you find them?
John Milham (Host) · 21:28
It's a great question. I think we spoke about authenticity before and then the idea that actually how you really feel is what you're keeping to yourself and you're putting the masks on externally. That mask metaphor was something that really resonated with me and I noticed that the more I removed the mask. I could call that being vulnerable. I could call that being honest, sharing my thoughts. I don't want another promotion or sharing some honest conversations with my wife. The more I did that, and that could be honest conversations about our relationship or it could just be how I'm feeling. The more I did that, the better I started to feel. And so then I start to sort of be inspired and idolize people I perceived that were just authentic, whatever that meant to me at the time, which was just people who were vulnerable and showing that they had both sides to them. Because that's the thing that I've come to learn subsequently, and I wouldn't have labeled it then, but we're all honest and we can all tell lies. We can all be kind and we can all be mean. We can all be generous, we can all be stingy. Like, we have all character traits and we're both sides. So accepting that there's parts of me that I love, but there's some parts of me that I'm not so proud of. But that's okay because we all have them. That was big for me. It felt like that forgiving yourself for the parts that you're trying to disown or get rid of.
James Pearson (Guest) · 22:52
The blokes who do the work go on a journey. It's a little bit of a tribe, right? Guys who are in work in progress, right? What's the reason we're doing the work? Why is it better to embark on those kind of challenges?
John Milham (Host) · 23:12
I don't know if it's necessarily better. However, I think for me it all comes back to— and the first thing that comes to mind, like I've done a lot of hypnosis, I trust my unconscious mind. The first thing that popped into my mind was kids, being a role model to my children. You know, I think many of us as parents want to protect our children from the perceived pain that we experience, whether that's If you didn't grow up with much money, you want to provide them with financial stability. Or if you had sort of mental health challenges, you want to provide them with more stability for their emotional management. I think that's what it is for me. It's about role modeling to them healthy emotional balance and relationships. And for me to be able to do that, I have to do it myself first. And it takes time.
James Pearson (Guest) · 23:57
Yeah, absolutely. Do you still like when you, you know, now you have a whole new toolkit and, you know, a whole bunch of experience about moving forward and sort of education. Do the dark days still happen?
John Milham (Host) · 24:16
Do you still get the— If we call it bouts of depression, which in the past could last days and deep dark hours, now they're fleeting and less deep. What I've learned to recognize is that when I feel that way, that's feedback to me. That's maybe a sign that maybe I'm not speaking my mind or that maybe I've deviated off path or maybe I'm expecting something from someone that's not realistic. So I've started to use them as cues to say, okay, well, what's the feedback that I'm getting here rather than trying to blame or change? I'm just— it's telling me something.
James Pearson (Guest) · 24:51
So it's a message.
John Milham (Host) · 24:52
Yeah, I think that's how it's like trying to decode the message. And the more you do it, I think the better you get. I think we were talking maybe prior about knowing yourself is like the first step for me on this journey. You have to know yourself. And that's complicated. We're complicated, layered beings with all sorts of experiences and interpretations of things. But knowing yourself and that journey will never end. But it's constantly collecting the data, taking the feedback, just knowing yourself better, and that helps you then to recalibrate.
James Pearson (Guest) · 25:27
I was reading a post on your LinkedIn profile a little while ago where you had shared some of your journey and some of you vulnerably offered the fact that you had dealt with depression. In many ways in the corporate world, in, you know, in anywhere in the Western world, you know, offering that stuff up is, you know, not still not okay. Yeah. And so how, and the response is often like most people are pretty kind, but there's a probably the toughest is that sense of personal shame, right? Like, like we're somehow, we're sort of, we're the worst judges of what we're sharing. How did you face that and then sort of go beyond that, sort of place it out into the public domain?
John Milham (Host) · 26:31
Yeah, you know, I think sometimes, John, my biggest shame now actually is I didn't do it sooner. You know, like I can feel that as I'm saying it, like When, when I met, um, Ian from Mentoring Men, and maybe 6 years ago, and he told me his journey, and, and the, the power that that had on me about how you share your story with other people, how it can make a difference to them, you know, that led me to going back to my business and sharing my story as a way to raise money for the organization. And And the way that my story landed internally in my former employer, and we were able to raise money, and it was so powerful, and you saw the difference it made to people. And so, you know, each year I'd share my story and I'd speak to people within the corporate. But at that point, I still didn't have the courage to go out beyond the corporate. And when I did, 6 months ago, when I left, the number of direct messages and SMSs that I got from people just saying either I felt the same, or my partner or my husband or my son. Like, it shouldn't have been a surprise to me and to you to know that, but it was just like, made me feel, wow, I wonder if I had done it sooner, could it made more of a difference sooner to people to make, to normalize, to normalize something that we all have in different ways, shapes, or form, which is highs and lows in our mental health and well-being.
James Pearson (Guest) · 28:02
Beautiful. Heading out from the corporate cocoon, I call myself a corporate escapee. It's quite a trust step. It's a step of courage and optimism. Do you still have that courage and optimism after 6 months?
John Milham (Host) · 28:27
Yeah, I mean, it's a test. I think there's an element of security and safety and stability in corporate that I hadn't appreciated fully because that's all I'd known. When you go on holiday and you realize you're not being paid when you're on holiday, that's different.
James Pearson (Guest) · 28:45
I think public holidays are just another day.
John Milham (Host) · 28:48
Exactly. I was working Christmas Day. That was partly because I didn't want to help the kids set all their toys up, but it was also because I had things to do. But it was a different feeling. Didn't feel like I was working. I wanted to do what I was doing. So that is a different feeling. I think, you know, for me, John, the more I own myself in this space, the more I see my change and the change of my clients. Like, I feel like I've got something that can help people, you know, and it might not— won't be for everybody, and that's fine. But, you know, if there's 50 people out there each year that I can help take on the journey I've been on, that can make a massive difference and a ripple effect. And that motivates me. But there's still economic realities as well, and the stability of corporate and likes. I mean, we're even thinking, John, about do we relocate away from Sydney? Do we clear our Sydney mortgage to free up the revenue requirements so I can keep doing what I want to do rather than sort of being forced to go back into corporate to just to earn some money. So there's all sorts of options on the table for me, but that's how strongly I feel about what I'm doing now, that I would take my wife and kids and we've changed cities after, what, 25 years for me to keep pursuing it.
James Pearson (Guest) · 30:10
Is it becoming more necessary, more accepted, right? Like being someone who works with other people, helping them, walking with them through journeys of like And it's not about being broken, right? These people aren't broken. It's like just maximizing their understanding, their self-awareness and their outcomes. So is this something of the future or will it be replaced by AI?
John Milham (Host) · 30:44
I mean, I think there's people out there like me, other men and women who are looking for another way to manage their own mental health and well-being without being reliant on someone else necessarily long term. You know, I don't want my clients with me forever. I want to— that metaphor, teach them to fish, you know. I don't want to just give them fishes each week. I want to teach them how to fish and manage like I'm doing, understand myself more, learn about myself, understand the feedback that my emotions are giving me, and I think there's more people who are open to the idea that they can support themselves here, that it's not something external that they need ongoing. I think there's an element of we have blind spots. You'd be aware of how much of what goes on in our lives is unconscious versus conscious, meaning how much we're unaware of and is automatic versus intentional. I don't know if AI yet can highlight those individual blind spots that we all have, that when you've got some expertise working with people, you're able to spot in a way that maybe AI can't just yet. And I think there's a relationship aspect. I spend a lot of time talking to ChatGPT the last 6 months, but it's not the same as my old work colleagues. And even that smile you're giving there, right? You just don't get that feedback and that energy. I think there'll always be a place for human beings to support other human beings.
James Pearson (Guest) · 32:17
Yeah, I smiled because I was thinking I've met, you know, I've worked with some accountants that might have been sort of quite similar to ChatGPT, but that's another story. Yeah, I think like, isn't it interesting, right? You know, the the facsimile of human intelligence is getting very good. But, you know, I think the totality of the human experience is much different, right? You know, like whether it's, you know, smell or, you know, a twinkle in an eye or an energetic exchange or, you know, a little bit of, you know, a brush of a touch, right?
John Milham (Host) · 33:04
Yes.
James Pearson (Guest) · 33:04
I think there's a whole experience that AI is not quite up to yet.
John Milham (Host) · 33:09
And I think you prompted me, you imprompted me there to think of something else that I've been pondering, which is, I guess there's two elements of what I do, which is like group and individual coaching on the mental wellbeing journey, the journey I went on. But the other is around team engagement, which might sound a little bit, but it's like, I know when I was at work in a corporate, if I wasn't engaged in my job, I wasn't in a I was in a— if I wasn't in an environment that was supportive of me, then that impacted my mental health and wellbeing. And so that's something that I'm really passionate about as well, helping leaders improve engagement in their team. And I've did that myself as a people leader in my previous role. And what I would say is I focused on the individuals and what I've seen with the sort of, let's call it the data-driven world, is this idea that we can bucket people into categories, you know, extrovert, introvert, or the DiSC profile. Like, I think these are useful tools to, to, to sort of generalize, and you could take 1,000 people and put them into the buckets, and that's great. But any one individual, you can't, I don't believe, make an assumption about just because of a test like that. And I think that individual aspect of coaching, where, where you get to know someone and their personal drivers and values, and, and then understanding those, and then helping them find roles and tasks and challenges that support them individually is, to me, where you can lift engagement and productivity. And so, I don't know if the data-driven world, the AI world, would be able to do that in the same way because it takes time and care and energy and effort. It's not just a quick questionnaire and there you go.
James Pearson (Guest) · 34:56
Yeah, absolutely. Of course, disengagement is a huge thing. Like, I love the challenge now of like, you know, what do they talk about being at work, you know, but they're sort of absent while working absence, right? They're absent.
John Milham (Host) · 35:17
Yes.
James Pearson (Guest) · 35:19
So yeah, that's a massive problem. But what's true in one area of life is also true in others, right? So you can imagine when you're disengaged at work, it must be difficult to be engaged with your family or your kids or in hobbies or self-care activity. So, you know, that extends beyond just a corporate profile, surely.
John Milham (Host) · 35:47
Yeah, absolutely. I think the For, for, for many people, their, their work is, is a decent chunk of their awake time. So having engagement there, whether that's doing a role that's on purpose and on mission, or whether it's just having a job within an organization where you feel like it's on purpose or on mission and energizes you, I think that's one area. You've got your own self-care, which we've touched on, and then you've got your intimate relationships, be that in your household or with your sort of immediate family. And I think if any of those areas are a bit off, for some people they flow into the other areas. For some, they compartmentalize and put more effort and energy into those other areas. But yeah, I think for me, those 3 buckets are the areas that I think if you can nail those, your mental well-being will be in a lot better place.
James Pearson (Guest) · 36:42
Yeah, yeah. So when you're helping someone, whether it's team or individual coaching, right, and you're bringing, you're touching your lived experience, how does lived experience assist the process? How does it make that coaching experience better?
John Milham (Host) · 37:00
I think there's two elements to it. One is you're not preaching. You're not saying you're wrong, I'm right. What you're saying is, hey, here's what I did. Here's my journey. You might be able to relate to it. And if you can relate to it, you can take something from it and it might help you. So you're not getting involved in debates of he said, she said, and this research and that research. It's like, here's what worked for me, and if that resonates, brilliant, I can show you and help you. I think the credibility of lived experience allows you to foster more trust with your clients, you know, because I think there's plenty of people who have studied but maybe haven't experienced. And so I think having the two together just helps you relate as a teacher and a coach, but brings trust from the clients that like, okay, well, he's not just sort of talking the talk, but he's walked the walk as well. And he knows where I've been.
James Pearson (Guest) · 37:58
Does it switch on empathy from the client or from you like as well? Right. Yeah. Do you— are you— because of your lived experience, does that, does that give you a different perspective on people's journey?
John Milham (Host) · 38:13
It does. However, as a coach, I have to be careful not to buy into my client's stories too much. You know, I want to show them another way, and another way is going to mean they're going to have to change some thinking and stories and patterns. And so if I can empathize, but not to the point of of supporting them to stay stuck in their current situation because nothing changes if nothing changes. And it can be quite challenging when someone says to you, when someone first teaches you about cause and effect and being a cause and someone realizes they've been an effect for 20 years. That's a bit of a rapport breaker sometimes. So, you know, you've got to get the balance right.
James Pearson (Guest) · 38:50
Because, you know, a coach is not just an And well, it's unconditional acceptance, but it's not necessarily unconditional approval, is it? Sometimes, yeah, there's accountability involved. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 39:05
That's a great way of putting it. Like I say on my website, where support meets challenge, like I don't want to sell this fantasy that I'm just going to pat you on the back and say you're amazing, you're doing all the right things. Like there is a support, but there's also a challenge where you're going to call people out. And not everybody wants that, but I think that's where the growth is, right? When you get the balance between the two.
James Pearson (Guest) · 39:27
Do you love coaching?
John Milham (Host) · 39:29
Yeah, I do. Yeah. You know, do you know what I love as much as coaching is teaching?
James Pearson (Guest) · 39:35
What's the best things about coaching and teaching?
John Milham (Host) · 39:38
I think— I don't know who said it, and I'm just going to fluff it, but like Einstein, if you don't— if you can't explain it to a 10-year-old, you don't understand it yourself. Like, I, I've learned a lot of things the last 10 years around psychology and neuroscience and human behavior and Brilliant. That's all great information. But so what? What's the so what factor? How do I take that into something practical that I can use and my clients can use? I enjoy the learning and then turning it into sort of, let's call it high school level where any of us can understand it because that's how I need it pitched at me. So I do like that, being able to— and I like to be quite— I'm a bit storyteller-ish. I like to be quite relatable. So I'm always trying to take these complex ideas that have 10-syllable words and to say, okay, how can I turn that into something that anyone can relate to so that they can actually take the action? So, yeah, I think that I enjoy that. It gives me energy teaching others.
James Pearson (Guest) · 40:37
What are your favourite tools?
John Milham (Host) · 40:39
So what have I done over the years? I thought about writing a post the other day about the amount of money I'd spent and hours I'd practiced, a bit of a credibility-building post. And I thought, you know what? What? That's no help to anyone really. That's just me focusing on me. So I ditched it. But yeah, I spent quite a few thousand dollars, let's say conservatively, over the last 10 years on my study and travel and courses and things. And whether it's NLP or CBT or parts or hypnotherapy or John Demartini. And I think what I'm doing at the moment is how do I blend all of those? How do I take the best bits of my journey? Like I started off with cause and effect, that one frame of cause and effect was a real game changer for me early on, you know. And so how can I piece them all together? I don't— my preference, like, on my group course, obviously you have to be quite linear and teach, but when you're doing one-on-one, you sort of respond to the client a little bit. If someone's a little bit, um, in their head, I want to try and get them out their head into their heart a little bit. So I might do some breathing and hypno, whereas if someone's quite studious. They like to know the knowledge, and so I might actually share the reasoning and the rationale. So I think it's really about how can you adapt to your client's beliefs a little bit, because what you don't want to do is be fighting their beliefs and butting heads, because then they will defend their position even if it's unconscious. So being able to flex between the different things I've learned, I found quite helpful. I wish I had a magic formula, but I'm still trying to work that out.
James Pearson (Guest) · 42:16
Yeah, yeah. Well, when you get it, let me know. What really captures you in the world, right? Is there philosophies or concepts that really capture you that you're always going to be a sucker for where the YouTube post pops up?
John Milham (Host) · 42:36
Yeah, I think like the last 3 or 4 years, I've started following a human behavioral specialist called John Demartini. He's very academic and cerebral, but he's got some very well-researched teachings and philosophies around human behavior and values as all being two-sided. Like, once, once, once I realized that, for example, we're all introverts and extroverts. So up until about 4 years ago, I thought someone was an introvert or an extrovert. And when John teaches that we're all introverts and extroverts in certain contexts, that helped me realize, actually, we can't be labeling anybody because anything's possible from any human being in a given context. I know introverts who say they're an introvert, and I'll say, what happens on Christmas morning when you're with your kids? And they're like, yeah, you're right. So it changes, right? And so then you start to see that, okay, well, I might not do that in that situation, but I can see why someone else has done it. And it helps me be less judgmental and accepting of others. And that's really important, I think, for your own emotional triggers. Because, you know, you can see when someone cuts you off in traffic, you know, you've got no idea what they're doing, where they're going. They could be rushing to the hospital, right? You don't know. So you just have a bit more tolerance for people. And that's been helpful for me.
James Pearson (Guest) · 43:58
I often talk about road rage as a great training ground for emotional regulation. I was just, you know, I just had a moment of truth-telling, an image of the lady's face when I, where I was like, you know, giving her a stern looking at, right? So I go, okay, John, not quite expert yet at managing that.
John Milham (Host) · 44:22
So I was just going to, I was just going to say, I mean, I have a coach myself, right? This is a journey. I've got my triggers. I've got my blind spots. Like, it's a constant evolution. It's just, and that's the fun of it, right? When it's just, it's just a journey. And again, It's not— it's cliché, but if you focus on the destination, you get frustrated if you don't get there. If you recognize it's just all a work in progress and we're all human, you can enjoy it. Um, and the, the other thing that came to mind when you were sort of speaking then is, is this idea that everything is our own perception. You know, you and I can witness the exact same event and feel very different about it. You know, I do like saying to my clients, if they're triggered by something their husband said or their wife did something, and I say, you know, if I was stood next to you at that exact moment in time, would I have reacted the same way? And the answer is always no. And it shows them that their triggers are them and taking responsibility.
James Pearson (Guest) · 45:27
That's a great idea. Gabor Maté always says that there are feelings. There's really only a couple of feelings, warm, cold, anger, fear, whatever. Everything else is perception, right? So being annoyed is a perception, right? Or being bothered or being impatient is a perception.
John Milham (Host) · 45:48
And so understanding, again, understanding yourself, understanding why you have the perception that you have is quite interesting to explore, to see the origins of it and understand it. And if you can understand it and understand the origins of it, you can change the perception, is my belief.
James Pearson (Guest) · 46:03
Which is such an interesting— like, such an empowering thought, you know. Like, so I'm running around instead of, you know, at the beginning where people are making me angry and the world is beating me down, right? But no, I, you know, I can actually change the perception of—
John Milham (Host) · 46:18
yeah, yeah, what it is.
James Pearson (Guest) · 46:20
Love that. What, what, what is— what are your favorite things in life?
John Milham (Host) · 46:25
Other than coaching and teaching, my family, my physical well-being, and do plenty of exercise. Love Manchester United.
James Pearson (Guest) · 46:36
Oh no, not that we don't on this podcast. All teams are welcome, right? So yeah, but brilliant. But yeah, yeah. So, you know, like you play, you know, you still do you play soccer still?
John Milham (Host) · 46:52
And you know, no, I do, I do, do regular fitness, health, exercise, you know, in the garden, go for a run, etc. I gave up the team sport a few years ago. It was just too old, John. It took me as long to recover as it did to, to train and play.
James Pearson (Guest) · 47:07
So which leads me to, you know, like what you do, right, to stay sharp. What would you— what are the challenges for a bloke, you know, you know, a peer you know, a bloke who's, you know, you know, he might be in the corporate world or runs a business, he's got a family, or he's thinking about it and so on, and he's got— he wants to be a good man and a good, you know, and also, you know, be a good community member, father, whatever else, you know, that challenge is. What would you suggest? What, what, where does he start? And what do you think we're going to bring into his world?
John Milham (Host) · 47:43
I think for me, the place we always want to start is with our own values. And when I say values, I'm not talking integrity and honesty. I don't mean the ethical sense and morals of values. I mean what's really intrinsically important to us. What are the things that we really want in life? Not the things that others expect us to have, because that can burn you out if you're trying to do what you want, which might be your work, your kids, your wife, but then other people expect you to to be playing football and someone else expects you to coach your kids' team and someone else, and you don't say no to that stuff for whatever reason, you don't think you can say no, you can burn out. So it's getting clear on what is really important to you and focus doing more of the things that are really important to you and saying no to the things that aren't. And that's, that's tricky sometimes to say no to those things.
James Pearson (Guest) · 48:36
Yeah. And even knowing what is important to us, often that's very confusing.
John Milham (Host) · 48:44
Yeah. And I think that is a fundamental piece, right? It's how do you know what is important to you and basically what is actually important to someone else that you've taken on in the past and you carried through or you don't feel you can change. That's been one of the interesting things for me, John. I go into the city every couple of weeks and meet with my friends from my corporate and I can see them and they even say it. I can't believe you're doing this. I can't believe you're not coming back into corporate. What about your mortgage? You can see the fear that they're projecting onto me because I'm doing what it is I think I'm called to do and I want to make it work. And that's not always how we're conditioned and expected to behave, right?
James Pearson (Guest) · 49:33
Yeah, absolutely. So David Deida in Way of the Superior Man talks about men needing a mission. Is this your mission? Is that, you know, is this something that you've been called to do?
John Milham (Host) · 49:46
Yeah, I do. I, I do an exercise with my clients where you go back in their life through 5-year chunks and you find the things that energize them, that they spontaneously did regularly, that they were motivated to do without having to get a kick up the bum by somebody. And then you do that for 5-year chunks. And if you look back, especially when you're old as me, um, and probably you as well, um, you see patterns. You see patterns. And I didn't realize until a few years ago, but I have taught since I was a teenager. I used to teach football to young kids. I was the— I used to run the under-21 football team at school. I've taught. I used to teach NLP, as you're aware, like I've always been a teacher, so teaching is core to me. And if I can intersect teaching and people used to say to me, if you could do anything, if you won the lottery, what would you do? I used to always say a teacher, but there's no money in it. I used to always say teacher, but there's no money in it. And then I had this sort of moment 5, 6 years ago when I realised I was teaching adults. I was like, I am a teacher. I just thought it was kids in primary school, but I am a teacher. The teaching is, is the mission. And then because of my lived experience of mental health, that intersection is, is really where the teaching and coaching comes from for me. And you know, the other thing that's different— the thing that's different as well is to— this is a, this is like a long-term goal. It's not something I need to— like, I've been doing this 10 years, coaching for 5. I don't need to earn a certain amount by tomorrow or 6 months. This is like, I know this is something I'll be doing for the next 10, 20 years. So I'm not super attached to the how much and when. It's just I'll just keep chipping away, taking action, learning, teaching, and it will come together. That feels very different to other goals I've had in the past.
James Pearson (Guest) · 51:44
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 51:44
Wow.
James Pearson (Guest) · 51:45
I love that view. So what are the things that will get in the way?
John Milham (Host) · 51:51
I think the biggest thing that will get in the way is my fear, my lack of certainty. I think I feel responsible for my household and my children as a previous primary income earner. And so I'm not going to make a lot of money doing this in the near term, and that's okay. Who knows what happens in the long term, that'll take care of itself. But I have wobbles where I see the monthly expenditure going out and I'm like, I have a resume that allows me to walk into hopefully a good corporate paying job if I wish to, and I'm choosing not to do that. And so I do get wobbles of uncertainty. That's what will stop me. But even if I did that, I'd still keep doing this in some way, shape or form.
James Pearson (Guest) · 52:45
Nice. And just to sort of finish up with a thought that's sort of beyond us, right? Because it's not always about us sometimes.
John Milham (Host) · 52:54
People have told me that before. I'm not sure I believe it.
James Pearson (Guest) · 52:59
Your kids, right? What are you hoping? Like, the world's a weird place at the moment. What are you hoping that they— A, that you can help them find, and then B, that they go on out beyond us and do and have an experience.
John Milham (Host) · 53:14
Yeah, I want to provide an environment for my children where they can thrive independently of me. And what I mean by that is equip them with the, the opportunities and the emotional tools so that they can thrive and adapt in any environment, as opposed to, you know, helicopter parenting, tiger parenting, or You know, I really want them to, to choose their path. And, and one of the biggest things that impact a child, as I know through my coaching, because I do a lot of regression and work from, from sort of from the past with clients, is parental expectations and judgments. That's the hardest thing that most of us struggle to shake. It shapes us, but also it can inhibit us in many ways. And so And obviously you can't escape it as a parent, but I just, as much as I can, just to support without judgment and trust their journey rather than projecting my fears onto them that you have to get this job or you have to study to this level. Just easier said than done. But that's the goal.
James Pearson (Guest) · 54:26
It's a great goal. I know you threw just without judgment in there. Like, that's such an easy thing to say, right? But like, yeah, seems like, you know, the entire world spends a lot of time judging, right? So it's not that easy.
John Milham (Host) · 54:42
But it's that, it's that, um, you know, pointing the finger, three pointing back at you. Like, if once you start to recognize that all judgment of others is also judgment of self, you know, and if I'm judging my kids because they're not getting great grades, well, that's because I fear if they don't get great grades, they won't get a good job. And if they don't get a good job, they'll end up destitute. And then, you know, and it comes back to me, what's my fears, that my judgment on them is based on my own stuff. So that's quite a useful tool just to, to help judge, be a little bit less judgmental, because essentially you're judging your own stuff, which you can handle your own stuff.
James Pearson (Guest) · 55:20
And it's beautiful. And that's a great, like, handling your own stuff is a great place to wrap it up. Just one thing, mate. What's the, what's your number one self-care recommendation?
John Milham (Host) · 55:31
Self-care, you're gonna love this. Daily cold shower.
James Pearson (Guest) · 55:37
Oh yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 55:39
And, and the reason why I say that, because it serves twofold. One, it's the physiologically inflammation, it's just great for the body and, and the, the, the sort of the chemicals around the body. But also it's the, the mental discipline to just set a goal that's uncomfortable and keep doing it. Like, I've been doing that for a few years now, and I don't love it ever, but I still do it just to demonstrate I can— I'm in control. It's my discipline. It's my choice.
James Pearson (Guest) · 56:10
Sounds so worthy, right? And it's so hard.
John Milham (Host) · 56:13
Like I said, it's metaphorical a lot. It's metaphorical a lot of the time, but it is— for me, it symbolizes my own discipline and ability to follow through.
James Pearson (Guest) · 56:26
Yeah, I like— I tend to like when I'm doing the cold, I need the cold shower a bit, so I turn off the hot and I cycle through it and I go, oh yeah, yeah, I can handle that. That's good, that's good. And then when I go to turn off, I realize I hadn't turned it all the way right. I just— I'd fooled myself, right?
John Milham (Host) · 56:50
Strategy. I love it.
James Pearson (Guest) · 56:54
It's been an incredibly learning experience for me to talk to you. And thank you so much for sharing your journey and for the vulnerable side of, you know, it's not easy to put that out there. And I'm really grateful for that contribution, James, and just sharing with Kintsugi Heroes. It's been wonderful to talk to you, mate.
John Milham (Host) · 57:19
Thanks, John. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Hopefully it makes a difference for somebody listening.
James Pearson (Guest) · 57:24
Ah, absolutely. And of course, uh, they can look you up if you got a website, mate.
John Milham (Host) · 57:29
Uh, yeah, jamespearson.coach. So feel free to have a look.
James Pearson (Guest) · 57:34
I love that, jamespearson.coach. Well, thanks, mate, and all the best, and we'll talk soon.
John Milham (Host) · 57:39
Thanks, John. Take care. Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, Head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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