Wayne Wigham · 45 min
A former first-grade rugby league player who spent decades silently battling treatment-resistant depression now travels Australia breaking the silence around men's mental health, and proving that asking for help is the bravest thing a man can do.
Hear this story
Wayne Wigham played first-grade rugby league while carrying a depression he couldn't name. His parents knew something was wrong when he was young, but the only help available was sedation that made him fall asleep at school. Sport saved him, though he didn't understand why at the time. The exercise, the mateship, the connection to men who were struggling quietly alongside him, all of it kept him alive through decades of silent suffering.
After his playing career ended, Wayne joined the fire brigade, found purpose, and tried to build a life. But misdiagnosis followed him through four public psychiatric hospitals. He self-medicated with alcohol and drugs, lost his marriage, and became a recluse for five years. It wasn't until he met Dr. Gordon Parker at the Black Dog Institute that anyone finally diagnosed him correctly with treatment-resistant depression. Eighteen ECT treatments and medication changes later, Wayne sat on his mother's back porch after a run and saw the world clearly for the first time in his life. The trees were green. The sky was blue. He felt normal.
That moment gave him hope, and hope changed everything. When Wayne finally got well, his young son put his hand up and said he'd been struggling too and wanted help. That single moment, Wayne says, was worth everything he'd been through. For the past 17 years, he's worked at the Black Dog Institute and traveled across Australia talking to men in mines, workplaces, and communities about depression and mental health. He speaks to them as mates, straight and plain, treating asking for help not as weakness but as the bravest thing a man can do.
“In hindsight it was that that probably saved me — the exercise, the sport, and the mateship.”
“If you know the enemy, you can fight the enemy. When you don't know what it is is when you go into a panic because you think this will never end.”
“I got depression. I got no shame. I'm going to beat that bastard. What do we do with our enemies? We charge at it, right?”
The hero, today
Wayne experienced severe depression from early childhood, but sport and the connection it gave him probably saved his life, even though he did not understand why at the time. After years of misdiagnosis and self-medication that cost him his marriage and put him in four public psychiatric hospitals, Wayne found effective help at Black Dog Institute and was finally diagnosed correctly with treatment-resistant depression. The turning point came when a run and a moment sitting on his mother's back porch made Wayne suddenly see colour and feel normal for the first time, which gave him hope that recovery was possible. When Wayne finally got diagnosed and treated, his son put his hand up and said he had been struggling too and wanted help, which Wayne says was worth everything he had been through. Wayne believes that men will ask for help if they have reasons that matter beyond themselves, such as being a better partner, father, or mate, and that seeking help is not weak but a sign of strength. The biggest barrier to men getting help now is not awareness but the political and media shutting down of honest conversation about men's struggles, which is killing men and needs to change.
Yes. Wayne Wigham is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Wayne experienced severe depression from early childhood, but sport and the connection it gave him probably saved his life, even though he did not understand why at the time.
After years of misdiagnosis and self-medication that cost him his marriage and put him in four public psychiatric hospitals, Wayne found effective help at Black Dog Institute and was finally diagnosed correctly with treatment-resistant depression.
The turning point came when a run and a moment sitting on his mother's back porch made Wayne suddenly see colour and feel normal for the first time, which gave him hope that recovery was possible.
John Milham (Host) · 00:01
This limited Kintsugi Heroes podcast series was made possible through grant funding provided by the New South Wales Department of Communities and Justice Connecting Seniors grant program.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 00:13
If you'd like to find out more about Kintsugi Heroes, head over to kintsugiheroes.com.au.
John Milham (Host) · 00:24
Welcome back to our Kintsugi Heroes special series Connecting Seniors.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 00:29
This year we are continuing to share the experiences of ageing Australians to create connections across our communities.
John Milham (Host) · 00:38
In this episode of Connecting Seniors 2025, we repeat a conversation between John Milham and Wayne Wiggum. Wayne grew up playing rugby union and league, which gave him connection and helped him cope with depression.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 00:51
From a young age, he experienced severe depression. Early mental health was limited due to misdiagnosis and poor treatment.
John Milham (Host) · 01:00
Later, Wayne joined the fire brigade, which gave him purpose, but he continued to have challenges with trust and setbacks, which affected his mental health. Struggling with treatment-resistant depression, he eventually found effective help through Dr. Gordon Parker at the Black Dog Institute. His path to wellness began there. After 17 years at Black Dog, Wayne now works to support men's mental health. He uses his own experience and clear way of speaking to reduce stigma and help others feel comfortable talking. Wayne encourages men to see asking for help as a strength.
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When Wayne finally got diagnosed and treated, his son put his hand up and said he had been struggling too and wanted help, which Wayne says was worth everything he had been through.
This conversation includes introduction, rugby union saves a quiet kid, from picked on to first grade, the sadness nobody could name, hard men with soft hearts and the fire brigade and the first inventions.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 01:39
He values emotional wellbeing, kindness, and strong family relationships.
John Milham (Host) · 01:44
His own growth helped his son seek help too. He believes in learning from life's challenges and focusing on the present. We hope you enjoy Wayne's story. And today we have a ripper story, right? And I'd like to introduce Wayne Wiggum. Welcome to Katsugi Heroes, Wayne.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 02:06
Thank you for having me.
John Milham (Host) · 02:09
Mate, you're more than welcome. And of course, Wayne, you're coming out to us after many years of storytelling. In fact, you'd probably be one of the few blokes in the country who has sort of, you know, dominated the last, you know, what, 17 years working for Black Dog and talking to men and telling stories. So an amazing track record, brother.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 02:31
Yeah, well, after many years of misdiagnosis and struggle, the Black Dog, uh, finally diagnosed me correctly. And, uh, just around that time, they only had about 20 people working for them, and just out of the blue, they needed someone to go to the mines. Yeah, and start talking to men in mines. And because I understand men fairly well, because 10 years football and 10 years in the fire brigade, I know them pretty well. So I went up and lived on a mining camp for a week and was doing underground and open cut. And that was my first experience talking to men. And that was, yeah, just over 17 years ago.
John Milham (Host) · 03:08
That's amazing. Like a trailblazer in this sort of meeting men where they need to be, where they are, and talking about the real stuff in life. How on earth, like you mentioned, 10 years of footy, 10 years of fireman, Right, you were playing back in the '70s and '80s, uh, top-level rugby league. How'd you get to that place, to being, um, a young man at the top of a, you know, of a big sport?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 03:33
Well, basically, um, my dad, um, you know, put me into rugby union when I was about under-8s. And even though I was suffering depression even back then and was a really quiet, sooky child, I just took to rugby union like a fish to water. And, um, it turned out I could run a bit, um, and I just— it was my life, actually. It, in hindsight, it was that that probably saved me— the exercise, the sport, and the mateship. So I just started playing rugby union. I was pretty good at it. Um, then when I was about 14, where I grew up, North Ryde, was a pretty rough area, and I was getting picked on a lot. I was getting into a lot of fights because no one really knew me because I was a rugby union player and they were all rugby league players. And someone said if you join the local football club, you'll be protected and you won't be picked on so much. So I started playing rugby union on the Saturday and then rugby league on the Sunday. At first they wouldn't put me on for about 3 or 4 weeks because I seemed like a bit of a crybaby to them, and I was always running away from school and crying at school and hiding away. And then when I finally got on, I think they got a bit of a shock. You know, I used to say in my mind, you know, universe, oh my God, or whatever I said, you've given me a rotten brain, but you've made up for it by giving me a good body for sport. Um, I took to rugby league very well, just went through the junior reps. Then I tried out for the under-23s in a trial match. Then I want to— I went on reserve grade that same day, and Rex Mossop was calling the game that night. And I scored a try into the post just after Rex Mossop. And at the same time, Rex Mossop, the old football caller, he was walking into the ground, but I didn't know that. Anyway, the next day I went back and I played for my local football club, and I'd been on the drink that night, and everyone said, 'You see the Rex Mossop show this morning?' I went, 'No.' Apparently Rex Mossop got on there and said he saw a young bloke who was going to be a first grader, and that night Um, the phone rang off the hook. Every club in Sydney started ringing. So I was really blessed. If Rex Mossop didn't walk in at that particular time, probably would have taken me a lot longer to make it, or I might not have made it. Yeah, man, I just got a contract and, um, just played my first first-grade game when I was still in high school and, um, really just went from there.
John Milham (Host) · 06:02
Wow. Uh, you, you mentioned like, uh, you know, seeing yourself as a, a bit of a crybaby and stuff. Of course, that's how people, you know, assessed, you know, somebody struggling with say depression or anxiety at the time. How, when did you first realize that, um, something was going— you, you said you had a, you gave yourself a, you know, oh, I've got a buggered brain. When did you start thinking that things weren't right?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 06:30
Mum, my dad— mum and dad knew there was something wrong when I was young. Crying a lot, hiding in my room, um, I just was generally sad, but I had no idea what it was. So mum first took me— I went— she took me to Ryde Mental Health Centre, the Ryde Community Centre, but they just sedated me back then, and that just made me fall asleep at school. So gave that away. And really, look, I just was genuinely sad a lot of the time, but I had no idea. You know, when I was playing football, I thought I was just a selfish, evil person who didn't appreciate anything. Why was I sad like this? I had great friends. I was a surfer. I surfed all summer, played football in winter. But sometimes I remember once I was with my mates who were just about to surf. I was with all my friends. Surf was good. And I just came over with this overwhelming despair, and I didn't know why. I was thinking, I'm with my friends, I'm with the surf, how can I feel like this? And it nearly overwhelmed me because I just did not know what the hell was wrong. But in hindsight, because I was training so much for sport, you know, the endorphins and, you know, the burning of the cortisol, it actually did save my life. I, I think back now and think that if I couldn't play sport, I don't know how I would have got through in hindsight. Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 07:53
Well, it's interesting because not only did it give you the physical support, but, you know, uh, the tribe, right? The connection, the, you know, the, the power of having another bloke, even if they're not talking, but at least they're shoulder to shoulder.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 08:09
And I think it surprised me, I couldn't understand it because, you know, I was always nervous and scared at school. Just from being found out. But when I got on the football field, you know, to be honest, I was pretty fearless. So it was a real contradiction within myself, and I didn't understand it, you know, how I could be one way, yet when I get out there, I never— I used to think, well, you know, nothing's worse than feeling depression, so everything else is easy. And even when I was training, when I started to get tired, I thought, if I can't get through this physical pain Am I going to get through the mental pain that I'm secretly suffering? So it made me train harder. Um, it made me want to beat that pain out of fear of not being able to beat the other. Yeah. So I think it helped me in hindsight a lot. I mean, at the time I didn't know this, but now I know a lot about it and look back, I can make real sense of it. And exercise, obviously, you know, is a massive help. When you are struggling. Yeah, I think that really got me through, to be honest.
John Milham (Host) · 09:14
Yeah, yeah. And it's fascinating, like, you've gone on to the paddock, you've been a member of a team, and you've sort of— normally depression could be very isolating, right? So how did you manage to connect and sort of follow and join in on the team stuff?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 09:33
Look, many of the men who are the hardest men are the softest underneath. And surprisingly, many of them have high emotional intelligence.
John Milham (Host) · 09:40
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 09:41
So, you know, you tended to bond with those who in hindsight may have been struggling as well.
John Milham (Host) · 09:47
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 09:47
So became great mates with quite a few of them. And I think because I did suffer depression, I was friendly and I had empathy, so I kind of got on with everybody. Um, just, you know, I could just see everybody for what they were and I saw good in everybody. So I really just— even when I was, you know, a football star, you know, we'd all drink with the under-23s, the reserve. We're all drunk together. Balmain was really inclusive. We had people of all cultures, all socioeconomic backgrounds, all religions, and I think we just learned to accept each other. In hindsight, again, it was actually beautiful.
John Milham (Host) · 10:27
Yeah, an early model for, you know, like, uh, some really— and of course, the Balmain during that time had some great success as well. So it wasn't just a good model, it was actually quite effective.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 10:39
Yeah. And like, in our backline there, like, we had, you know, Polynesian, Māori, Polynesian, uh, Indigenous, Lebanese. Um, I think at one point I was the only Caucasian in our back, but we never saw each other like that. We just saw each other as teammates. And we really, really were close. Other clubs were jealous of us because we didn't have cliques. We all drunk together. Um, it was a wonderful experience. If anything, it made me come out the other end a bit naive to the world. When you go straight into a thing like that where you, your handshakes, your word, you have each other's back from a young age, when you come out the other end, you're really a sitting duck to be, um, taken advantage of. Because you believe the whole world's like that. And I think a lot of the footballers do get taken or make some dumb decisions out of trust. Yeah, thinking the world's like that when they come out at the other end. And a lot of footballers do start to suffer depression or to have mood disorders because they stop training, and all of a sudden what was covering their grief— give away training and everything hits you. So you learn a lot of sportswomen and sportsmen struggle, um, after their careers. And it's not really the end of the career so much, it's more stopping of the exercise, which was masking or helping with the mood. You know, back then, like, Olsen Filipana was my inside center. He came out later on and said that he was suffering depression at the same time. Dennis Pendle, he's half Japanese, he was struggling. Percy Knight, who's Indigenous, I lived with him for a few years. He was struggling. So we found out in later years that all of us really, like, there's 4 of us together, and 4 of us had our own demons for various reasons. Yeah, um, that we're all struggling and hide. And it really, you know, later, you know, 10, 15 years ago, we kind of sat down and we couldn't believe that we're all hiding it from each other so well. And men are good at hiding it.
John Milham (Host) · 12:35
Very good, very good. It's incredible. And of course, you mentioned the transition so many sportsmen make from that tribe, that connection, a place where, you know, support is available and just— and validation is available, even if it's not stated. And then out in the real world, you mentioned you were naive. How, how did that transition, you know, go for you?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 12:56
I left rugby league and went straight into the fire brigade, and I joined the— I was in the first fire brigade rescue squad, you know, because I had a purpose. Like I felt like I was doing something for society. And, um, and I needed that. I'm a good Aries boy. I need that. For me personally, if I don't have a purpose, I fall. So that helped a lot. And I did go back and play A-grade with my old friends that I grew up with. So I kind of gave up the professional— when the pressure of the professional rugby league— to go back and have fun and had the fire brigade. Again, in hindsight, um, that really helped that I didn't go straight from a team environment to no team environment. But then I did, I did do a couple of inventions. We invented something, you know, to warn people if they took their seatbelt off in the back seat in buses. And I got robbed a bit doing that because I just took a handshake as a bond. Um, I lost faith in humanity a bit. Um, you tend to You have to go through your lessons, I think. I think all of us went through that time when you feel that all humans aren't in that team. So I did get, you know, I did learn my lesson the hard way, but that's the university of life. And it was, it was a naivety of believing people for their word. So yeah, learned my hard lessons there, but you had to. And, you know, just got wise as we all do, and we all, um, as we get older, you know, I did, I did start to self-medicate. Then I was drinking a fair bit in the fire brigade just because I was, I was still getting the overwhelming feelings of sadness, still didn't know what it was. Turned to drugs, lost my marriage, um, ended up in 4 public psych hospitals, still mignised, still misdiagnosed. And things got pretty grim and I turned into a recluse for 5 years.
John Milham (Host) · 14:57
What were they diagnosing you as having?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 15:00
Oh, just different types of depression or anxiety, or I don't, back then, to be honest, it was pretty generic. Doctors didn't really understand it very well, so they tended out, tended just to hand out the same type of medication to everybody.
John Milham (Host) · 15:16
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 15:16
And it, you know, it did help some people, but others it didn't. Um, so the science of depression really, really only started in about 2000 in Australia when the Black Dog were the first, um, people to open up. And then the different types of depression and the different diagnosis became more public and there was more awareness. So you had a much better chance to get diagnosed correctly. And anyone today, if you tell the truth about how you're feeling, you've got a really good chance of being diagnosed correctly. And that's everything, like any illness. Yeah, um, hitting it on the nut, on the nut. And then, you know, if you know the enemy, you can fight the enemy. When you don't know what it is, is when you go into a panic because you think this will never end.
John Milham (Host) · 16:00
So you, you like—
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 16:02
you—
John Milham (Host) · 16:02
it sounds like, you know, the discipline of your choices. So, you know, the fire brigade is a big— you know, has a lot of training and discipline attached to it as well. So that had kept things together, although you were finding it harder and harder and going being in, in the system and struggling to get a decent response and, you know, self-medicating. That's quite a lot to deal with. Did that lead to a crisis point?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 16:28
Well, it did. You know, as I said, I ended up in 4 public psych wards. I think I've been in— I think I've been in every one in Sydney, like Hornsby Hospital, Ryde, um, North Shore, Encore. Man, like, I can give you a star rating on each public psych ward if you want one.
John Milham (Host) · 16:43
Yeah, TripAdvisor for, for, for the wards, right?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 16:48
So yeah, I can, I can tell you everything about them. But really, again, the public system wasn't great back then. There was no real diagnosis. They were really just holding cells to keep you safe. Yeah. Um, eventually, um, as I said, Dr. Gordon Parker from the Black Dog— I was totally suicidal by then. I did have a suicide attempt. Um, And anyway, Gordon Parker, mine's treatment resistant, my depression. I ended up having 18 ECT treatments. Wow. And at the same time, they changed my meds, and I was beginning to panic because after about 16, nothing was happening. I was still pretty suicidal.
John Milham (Host) · 17:26
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 17:27
And then, um, one day I kind of went for a run. They let you go for a run from North Ryde Psych Centre when I was out there at the time. And I got back from the run and I sat in the back porch at my mum's place, and all of a sudden I went, gee, the trees look green, the sky looks blue. And I went, I said, gee, I think I feel normal.
John Milham (Host) · 17:48
Wow.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 17:48
And all of a sudden it was like, whoa, you know, it was the first time in my life that I didn't have, like, you know, the dark cloud hanging over me. And it gave me hope, because if you do believe that you can't get well and that'll never end. That's when people struggle, and that's just not the truth. But there are many, many men out there who have tried to get better once or got help once, and when it doesn't work, they've given up. Yeah. And that's one of the big messages that we, um, have to spread, that, you know, if it doesn't work the first time, you go back, cuz it's not an exact science. What works for me might not work for you. So they do have to play around with it. So if you have gone and got help and you still feel rough, go back. That's really the big message, because you will get over it if the right diagnosis— and you do what you have to do, what they tell you to do.
John Milham (Host) · 18:39
Yeah, yeah, that's, um, yeah, that discipline. You've got to hold on, you know, and keep turning up to training or, you know, getting up to treatment. Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 18:48
And if they tell you to practice gratitude or to exercise or to do whatever, if you don't do it, you won't get well. It's like if you go to the gym, go to the personal trainer and it gives you a workout routine and you don't do it, well, you're not gonna get physically fit. With our minds, you have to practice loving yourself and all the things they tell you.
John Milham (Host) · 19:08
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 19:08
You've gotta practice it. And if you do, you can change the way you think and you know what to do when you do go down. You can know the mental skills to drag yourself back up. And it's really important to understand that.
John Milham (Host) · 19:22
So you, you've been sharing that message, right? From your lived experience for 17 years. And you share it not in this sort of manicured way. You go out with hard, you know, hard-toed boots on and get down and dirty with blokes who have probably never had a real sort of sit-down and chinwag about self-love in their lives, right? So how does that go?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 19:48
No, look, you know, in my mind I always imagined, because I, I know it because I've lived it and I've lost mates from suicide, and I had rough mates, some of the toughest men in the world suffer I mean, blokes who would take a bullet for you in a second. It's got nothing to do with bravery. So in my mind, I always just said, right, I'm going to talk to you like you're my best mates or my family, and I've got to tell you what I know.
John Milham (Host) · 20:12
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 20:13
So I always, in the back of my mind, that's how I talk. I understand that we're also overwhelmed with information. We just want to hear, what the hell is it? Am I weird? And what do I do, and if we need to help someone else. So I really keep it straight, basic, the truth. My Black Dog presentation is based on research, but I can add the lived experience bit in. And when I do my own stuff, you know, I really just talk a little bit. I really simplify it. I think that's what we have to know. It's just a message. It's the truth. And I know it's an illness.. And I just got to convince everyone, we've got to convince all men that that's all it is, you know. And so that's in my mind, that's how I play it. And I was never scared because, you know, I was in— I played first grade for 3 different clubs. I know men, and I knew those hard men at the mines. I knew underneath they were good blokes and would listen. I got called a soft cock and a few things out there, but always, always there would be someone get up and go, no, You know, it's, I've got it. And sometimes it'd be the biggest bloke with the most tattoos and the meanest bloke.
John Milham (Host) · 21:25
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 21:25
And even when I did the Indigenous communities, there'd always be an elder or someone get up and say the same thing. Because once you break the dam, someone will help you, always. I don't think I've never been left posted with that kind of stuff. And I didn't care being called that, and because I knew that I was a hard man for doing it. You know, I'd say, take the hit for the family, brother. If you put your hand up, your kids will. Yeah, so I think it's masculine. So a little bit of redefining masculinity in there.
John Milham (Host) · 21:54
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, probably a little bit ahead of the curve on that one.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 21:58
Well, yeah, because I'm a hard man, but I'm a soft man, and I'm proud of that. I'm not going to change, you know. And, um, I know that most of us are, you know. We can be as hard as nails, all of us, or we can make a choice to be kind and open, you know. So it's a lifestyle choice, I tell people.
John Milham (Host) · 22:14
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 22:14
It doesn't mean you're not the toughest bloke or you're not brave or you wouldn't do anything for your family. A lot of blokes think that it makes them weak to put their hand up. To me, it's the opposite. And when I do have men say that, oh, I feel weak, I go, brother, you're the type of man I'd march into battle with any day. So, and I feel that. So I just talk straight, you know, probably a bit like a '70s footballer, a bit of a yobbo type, you know, maybe. I don't know. I call myself the Black Dog Bonehead.
John Milham (Host) · 22:46
Uh, not, not woke, but definitely awake, right? So yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. Um, interesting, like what comes to mind is you've been across, like as I, I've said a couple of times, you were ahead of the curve with some of these conversations and understanding. Have you noticed the message change? Is it like, is it more sophisticated? What do we now know that we didn't when you were first sharing these stories?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 23:09
We know there's more confidence in getting better. Again, the institutes like the Black Dog and others, the research that they're doing on treatments, that's what I love the most. You know, so it was even Gordon Parker, who is the world expert, you know, back when I started the Black Dog, I remember he said there'd been no real advance in mental health treatment with medication since lithium in 1952.
John Milham (Host) · 23:35
Wow.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 23:35
So, you know, the pharmaceutical companies had let us down, uh, but now they're under pressure to come up with better solutions. And the Black Dog are doing stuff with, you know, things like ketamine, electromagnetic therapy, and other treatments of it. And, um, the future is much brighter for us and our children, which is great news. You know, it really warms my heart to know that it is getting more exact science. And we are catching up to physical health. Um, so I think it's changed in that way. And, and look, everyone's heard about it now. I think we talked about it. The awareness is there, but now we've gotta nail down into why, why do I get this? You know, and is it normal? You know, and most depressions are, you know, circumstantial. You cop 3 or 4 big hits in life, one after the other, and all of us are gonna fall.
John Milham (Host) · 24:26
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 24:27
You know, not to hate yourself cuz that happens cuz that's the way we are as humans. You know?
John Milham (Host) · 24:32
Yeah, it's very, very reasonable to feel miserable and sad when something miserable and sad has happened.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 24:39
And you've gotta know how to deal with it. We've not been taught, you know, the mental tricks and the, and the, and the science of how to deal with such things. And it can hurt you and it can come and bite you a year later. Some men are still struggling from marriage breakups or, or things 10 years later. And something that happened to you as a child can come back and bite you if you haven't dealt with it. And that's, I know it sounds, a lot of people think that's bull, but it's true. You know, our brain can get wired a certain way. Um, but we've learned now that we can unwire and rewire. Um, and that's really important, but to get better, you've gotta believe.
John Milham (Host) · 25:13
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 25:14
If you don't believe, and a lot of people still don't believe, and I think that's the big thing we've gotta push that believe that you can get well. And then when you believe, you'll do the work that you have to do. I think that's the big message now— belief and, and hard work, and you'll get there. You know, I think they're the big things that have changed. Now we can say it with confidence.
John Milham (Host) · 25:35
Yeah, that's a great message. I, I love that idea of, you know, embracing the, the potential for healing ourselves.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 25:44
Yeah, well, I've got depression. I've got no shame. I'm going to beat the bastard. What do we do with our enemies? We charge at it. All right, you know.
John Milham (Host) · 25:52
Yeah, um, yeah, mate, like, uh, I, I understand the, the brave talk of an outside back, but anyway, like, yeah, we'll carry on to the next.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 26:01
Glory him, mate. I'm down for the glory, you know that.
John Milham (Host) · 26:04
So what I'm fascinated is, mate, because, um, you were diagnosed with melancholia, which is like such an old-fashioned name, but it's the, you know, it's a very, as you say, treatment-resistant. It's a very deep and, and fundamental sadness and, and, um, you know, it usually stops people from doing life and changing their trajectory in life completely. So what, what do you think was special about you? How did you manage to fight through and go forward and create, you know, a new kind of career and everything out of it, even after the previous ones?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 26:38
I think there's great courage in many people out there. You know, you tend just to drag yourself up and keep going. Through great pain. And so I, you know, Professor Parker said to me once— I still felt a bit weak within myself, to be honest— and then Professor Parker said to me once, you're really brave to make it this far. And I just think I was brave. And I think anyone who is getting up every day and living with this is super brave, and I just salute you. So we tend to do it. We tend to just get up and keep going. It was brutal. And I did fall in the end after about 40 years, you know, as I said, no, I did. We tend to self-medicate if you don't get help. I really haven't met anyone who hasn't self-medicated, you know, drinking, gambling, um, drugs. We can become, we, you know, we might become a little bit more promiscuous or, or change our sexual patterns just to try and feel good. So you tend just to do, and that can wreck your life, you know, like it changes you without knowing. And that breaks my heart because I see a lot of men lose their marriages and friendships because they're just, you know, self-medicating in one way or the other. And the self-hatred that comes with a lack of understanding, um, we can destroy our life. Yeah. I mean, I think it's something like 80% of marriages break up if one partner has struggling and doesn't get help because the other partner feels helpless and doesn't know what's going on.
John Milham (Host) · 28:01
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 28:02
And my ex-wife, she apologizes to me for not understanding, I go, well, how could you understand when I didn't?
John Milham (Host) · 28:08
Yeah, absolutely.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 28:09
So don't worry about it. I didn't know, so how could you know?
John Milham (Host) · 28:11
Yeah. Wow. Terrific idea. The idea that, um, you know, all of it, you know, all of us can, can touch that bravery. I think that's such a great message. With— when you— and speaking of bravery, right, when you go out, as we said, you know, you go out into some, some places that, you know, aren't normally you know, seeing a whole bunch of people sitting down and talking about mental health or wellbeing or depression or, you know, self-compassion or treatment. So when you look at those blokes you're connecting with, uh, they're often, as you like, your backline, like from all different walks and different backgrounds and different lived experience. How do you bring that? You know, how do you deliver a message to all of these different types and silos of men and shapes of men?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 28:58
It's not— it don't change. So for instance, last year I did a drug and rehab center out in Geelong, which is a low socioeconomic area, and you know, battlers. I mean, I'm in that line of work, and I was just— a little experiment for myself. I just spoke to them from the heart like I always do. And then the next day, while I was in Melbourne, I did a job for a cybersecurity company. They're all on about half a million a year, and it was in this restaurant that You know, the food was that good, I didn't even know what I was eating, but it was beautiful. And I never changed the message.
John Milham (Host) · 29:31
Wow.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 29:31
So men, no matter who we are, where we come from, what culture, socioeconomic background, we're all the same inside.
John Milham (Host) · 29:39
Mm-hmm.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 29:40
Um, so if you just, and the illness doesn't discriminate, it affects us all the same. And even if we live in the biggest house or the smallest house, we're gonna make the same mistakes.
John Milham (Host) · 29:49
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 29:50
We're gonna self-medicate. We're gonna lose relationships. We're gonna hate on ourselves. So, you know, the message is consistent. I never look at men differently cuz we're, you know, it's irrelevant to me. And, you know, culturally the Māoris call depression loss of mana, loss of life spirit. The Indigenous have a word that I just can't remember that means basically the loss of life spirit, but we're all the same. It's irrelevant. You know, I can't, I always say to men, I can't comment on how you got there, but I can comment on the pain that we feel is the same.
John Milham (Host) · 30:27
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 30:27
You know, so the circumstances may be different, but there'll still be things that hurt us along the way, but nothing's different. Yeah. So there is no differently. We're all men. I don't care.
John Milham (Host) · 30:38
Terrific, terrific message. The, uh, I'm interested in, you know, when you are, uh, opening up to these different groups of men. Right. Blokes have not been great at taking up that challenge of looking after themselves or moving forward with some commitment to themselves or whatever, whatever it, whether they're focused on other things or they, you know, they have a vision of themselves as, you know, not needing it or being too, too tough. You know, there's a lot of reasons, right? Blokes are complex. What do you, what do you do? That's different, that sees a level of commitment. Do you get the message through? Are you confident that blokes are taking— are making changes?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 31:19
Well, I'll give them— if they won't— as you said, we're not great at any type of seeking help for any type of help. So, you know, I say, if you won't do it for yourself, do it for your partner, do it for your kids, do it to be a better mate, better father, better, you know, partner, or whatever. So I try to give them reasons to do it And we will help our families, and we, we will help other people. Like, we'll help each other people when we don't help ourselves in many cases.
John Milham (Host) · 31:45
Yeah, yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 31:46
So I try to come up with any reason that we should do it. I went to a, um, I did a turnout with, um, Shane Webke and Jeff Horn the boxer, and Shane Webke was there. His, his father passed in a work accident, so he lectures how we've got to be careful at work. So we come home And he used that motivation. You know, if you want, if you, you know, we're all a bit haphazard in our workplace, but he says, do it so you come home to your family. And I think with mental health, do it so we come home and stay there for our family. And we will be better men ourselves and we'll be better to those around us. And that's a great motivation. And I think any man would put his hand up and admit it if he knew that his loved ones would then follow. Like, when I finally got diagnosed correctly and got help, my young bloke put his hand up and said, Dad, I've been hiding it too. Yeah. And I'm gonna get help now. I know I would give up anything I've ever done in life for that moment. It was worth every little— and I did cop some shit back then, you know, to be honest, you know. Yeah, you know, yeah, just, you know, you're hero, what are you talking about this stuff for, why do you do it, what do you, you know. And I go, 'cause it's my nature. But that's worth it. And you know, and we can set the example for those around us if, and that's brave and that's a good thing to do. And I mean, that's masculine. How masculine do you wanna be? Exactly.
John Milham (Host) · 33:11
Brave, man. Yeah. Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 33:13
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 33:13
I agree, mate. But of course there's always, you know, anything that's worthwhile often has ups and downs. There's a cost. What's it cost you?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 33:22
Look, to be honest, back when I was first talking about it and people knew, women wouldn't come near me, to be honest, because I was, you know, I could, you know, it was someone who'd been in psych hospitals. So, and I understood that. So, you know, I was a bit of a pariah. And when I first went back to my football reunions, there were some men that just couldn't come anywhere near me just because they didn't know what to say, or, you know, they'd heard I what I'd— the track I'd been. But, you know, I just walked in with my chest out, and I understood that that was only because they had no understanding at the time. Um, so I copped a hard time off some of the footballers, but there wouldn't be one of them that hasn't rung me since and said, shit, I'm struggling now, or my son's struggling, can have a word to him. So that awareness that we talked about, that is, people are more aware back then. I don't blame them. I didn't know, you know, I just found out myself. And I'd been to psych wards, and I'd say I had that knowledge, they just didn't. That's all it is, you know. And it's like a bad back, people, they can't see it, you know. You tend not to get much sympathy back then. But, um, so that was the— they were the downsides, but it never really worried me, you know. It was interesting for me. Like, I think we talked about the curiosity of life. Yeah, I found it interesting that, you know, when I was a football star, like I had everyone being nice to me, yet when I had just come out of, you know, where I'd come, it was complete opposite. And it taught me a lot about life, to be honest.
John Milham (Host) · 34:54
Yeah, yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 34:55
So now it was all good, um, you know, it didn't really worry me. I kind of got used to, you know, that kind of thing. And when you do play football, you kind of get— when you have bad games, you gotta— you get the shitbagged out of your week. So I was pretty used to that anyway. I just had that subconscious thing that I knew that it was the right thing to do. Yeah. And I just had that purpose, you know, gave me a, a lot of people say when you struggle with something, if you go on and talk to other people about it, it gives you a reason why you went through it. You know, all that stuff. People do it with all sorts of illnesses and problems, and it's good for me.
John Milham (Host) · 35:29
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 35:29
For some people it's not. Some speakers start at the Black Dog or in other places and they just, not for them. So it's just, you gotta be true to yourself. And for me, it's good for me. And who knew? I didn't know. And I was just lucky, really. I'm blessed. I'm blessed that I had the opportunity to start doing it. I'm blessed that I turned out that I was, you know, I'm not ashamed. I'm quite good at it. I'll talk to anybody. I was just a fluke, really. But I think, you know, I'm really thankful that I have that, this opportunity.
John Milham (Host) · 36:02
Yeah, well, mate, it's great work. What do you think is the challenge? You know, as you mentioned, right, awareness has sort of been on everyone's agenda for a while. Uh, the numbers are still tough for men, right? We're still losing way too many men in different situations. What do you think is the way forward for us?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 36:23
Well, we've just got to target why. Like, we all know now, we know, look, men know we're not handling marriage breakups very well.
John Milham (Host) · 36:30
No.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 36:31
A lot of men suffer physical and emotional abuse that is just unsaid, and they don't know what to do about it. And they're trying their hearts out, and, you know, they're getting a lot of bad things happen at home. We don't talk about it. Um, loneliness is a big thing. Um, you know, if we can't see our kids, false allegation, uh, general— when we, when we leave work, We can lose our identity.
John Milham (Host) · 36:58
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 36:59
You know, financial pressures can make us feel like less of a man. So we've got to start viewing ourselves and not judging ourselves, you know, by, you know, how big our house is. You know, mate, I've been rich and I've been poor and it's irrelevant. Sometimes I get men ring me out and say, oh, you know, I've come out of, you know, I've lost my money or I've lost my money in divorce and I feel less of a man. I go, I'll pick our richest mate. I'll say, well, what do you think Billy's doing now? Yeah, sitting at home watching TV. What are you doing? Yeah, what are you going to do in the morning? And what do I think he'll do? You know, you don't need all that. I mean, go for it, be the best you can be. But as men, we're multi-dimensional characters. And have more pride in yourself, you know, be proud of yourself being a good bloke, trying to be a good dad, trying to be a good friend. You know, I think we have to learn about that. When I was in the fire brigade, um, because I was working shift work, I had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with my kids. So don't fight with that. If you get that opportunity, wrap it up. Again, in hindsight— I didn't know at the time, but in hindsight, because my ex could work and I had the kids on the day off, again, I'd give up everything for that. Again, it was beautiful, and I'm close to them because I had that time. So a lot of this stuff about redefining masculinity and, you know, having times with the kids, I think we should embrace it and, you know, understand we're great. That dad's a great—
John Milham (Host) · 38:26
yeah, yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 38:26
And if you can get time with them, you'll never replace it. So, you know, let's have a look at ourselves differently and, you know, not get stressed. And, you know, everyone has bad luck in life. Um, and the other thing I'd say is we all— we've all messed up, made mistakes. So you just forgive yourself. That's the university of life. A lot of blokes make mistakes and can never forgive themselves. Bugger that, we all have. If I lived on my mistakes, I would be in trouble. And it took me a long time to forgive myself, to be honest, because it was my biggest struggle. But then I went to the university of life. I only knew what I knew at the time. Forgive myself. All that matters is the man we are today, not yesterday. And I know that sounds a bit of a cliché, but it's the truth.
John Milham (Host) · 39:07
Hey, that's brilliant. I love that. The idea of I'd rather have a Purpose than a Porsche, right? That, you know, I love that, right?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 39:16
Mate, I'm dealing with plenty of multimillionaires who are feeling just as bad as, you know, those who, of us who struggle. I know, you know, when you don't have to financially struggle and you've got your bills paid, it takes a lot of pressure off. But with depression and mental health, you know, it probably helps 10%, but it's still not gonna be the answer.
John Milham (Host) · 39:34
Still gotta get the work done.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 39:37
You still got to do the work and get the help.
John Milham (Host) · 39:40
Yeah, and get the help. Two major messages, right? So you were mentioning you just addressed a group of blokes, your fine local rugby league club, the Coogee Boys. But what is it about that that really lights your fire?
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 40:02
Well, I can see— I understand that life's hard, um, and that everyone struggles. I understand that, you know, for professional sportsmen, for instance, a professional Rugby Union player or Rugby League player, if they're struggling psychologically and they go get help, everyone thinks, what a great thing, and all their teammates will hug them and go, great, because this game is hard and it can do your head in. I've talked to hundreds of professional athletes. Life itself is harder than being a professional sportsperson. 10 times harder.
John Milham (Host) · 40:33
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 40:34
So we should be embracing it ourselves. Be proud of yourself that you're in a hard game. You have your wins, your losses. So I look, um, I think that we should look at life as the hardest sport of all and congratulate each other when we're smart enough to go and figure out how to play the game of life better. So, and we can all play better and enjoy life more. Like you can play better and enjoy the game. If you get help in sport, it's the same as life. So, you know, but I just talked to the boys, you know, the Kuji boys, they were mostly transients, look, from England. They come from the country to Sydney. They really don't have a network here. So that particular club joins them together, gives them friendship, you know, purpose. Um, I just really talked about all the things that we've mentioned about, you know, relationships Even sexuality, you know, we can all, you know, get trouble with our sex lives, you know, we can fail to perform sometimes. And, you know, I talk— I really talk everything I know, and I've been through it all, by the way. Yeah. And, um, so it's just a really open discussion. I went hard. I talked to them like I'm the football coach. But, you know, with the Kootji Boys afterwards, there were 3 of them that got up, um, and spoke about their own struggles. And then you can see the other boys go, oh, and that's brilliant, because one guy was from England, another guy had come down from the country. So all different circumstances, but where they landed was pretty much the same. So there are consistencies in what is hurting men, but unfortunately, for some reason, it's shut down in the media, it's shut down politically, um, and we all know it's killing men, but We just can't seem to get it talked about. Those of us in the game call it the great unsaid. The more you try to publicize it, the more you get whacked on the nose, as you know. So I think the next thing we have to do— look, if there's 40%, if there's 50% of women who get, who suffer domestic violence, but there's 30% of men, we can't just forget the 30% of men. It should be, we should be helping everyone. And I say I wouldn't care if it was 90% of men and 10% of women. We still should help the 10% of women in everything.
John Milham (Host) · 42:52
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 42:53
So I really believe that instead of looking at statistics and dismissing one group because their statistics are somewhat lower, that's sick, that's bent, and it's killing us. So as men, we've gotta join together, and I think we mentioned it's almost gotta, we gotta vote for the party that will stop this. Shutting down of open discussion. Yeah. Um, I got mates who— I got one mate, he's ex-Army. He's— he suffered such domestic bad domestic violence and he couldn't get help. He went down and had a meeting with the CEO of White Ribbon and said, why aren't you publicizing this? And so, you know, that's my frustration. It breaks me a bit because it's really hard to get by. But I know it's great meeting you guys 'cause I know that I'm not the only one. You know, you begin to think you're the only one who thinks this until you get around like-minded people.
John Milham (Host) · 43:46
Yeah.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 43:46
So I'm really happy to have met you guys, just, you know, 'cause together we'll get there. So I think that's a big change we have to make, and I think if we do, we'll save lives straight away. Because if we start publicizing it, men sitting at home feeling unloved and unwanted and no help, all of a sudden they'll go, Oh, you know, men hate hypocrisy.
John Milham (Host) · 44:10
Yeah. It's, um, it's, you know, the sense of, um, stoic justice, right? The right, right thing done at the right time.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 44:17
And it helps you mentally. It'll help us all. It'll take the pressure valve off and then we can go to the next level.
John Milham (Host) · 44:24
Mate, uh, that is amazing stuff. I, congratulations on the work you're doing. It's so inspiring. I love the way you step into these conversations with such vigor and fire and commitment. It's fabulous work, mate. Thank you for listening to this episode of Connecting Seniors, a Kintsugi Heroes special series.
Wayne Wigham (R) (Guest) · 44:53
If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend, and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
John Milham (Host) · 45:04
If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next week.
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