Walter Frankel
A Journey through Generational Trauma to Advocate for Mental Health with with Walter Frankel
Walter Frankel chose his values over his marriage and found purpose serving isolated older Australians.
Hear this story
Kintsugi Studio
Walter Frankel
Walter Frankel chose his values over his marriage and found purpose serving isolated older Australians.
Hear this story
Walter Frankel is the son of Holocaust survivors, born in Rhodesia and raised across continents. At twelve, he saw a photograph of Australia and knew it was where he belonged. He spent years finding his way there, arriving in Brisbane in 1984. For nearly five decades, Walter stayed silent about the dysfunction in his marriage and family, choosing peace over safety. At 48 years in, he left. The cost of that silence nearly broke him.
During COVID lockdown, Walter listened to his mother's testimony as a Holocaust survivor for the first time. He heard in her words the same nightmares that had haunted his own childhood. He realized then that generational trauma is real, inherited through silence and carried in the body. When he retired, the weight of everything he had absorbed caught up with him. He was hospitalized and forced to see what decades of work had obscured: that he had lost his family, and that staying alive meant something entirely different now.
Today, Walter runs a conversation program for isolated older Australians at Wesley Mission called "Discussing the Elephant in the Room." He does not charge for this work. He listens first, empathizes without pity, and helps people write their lives down so they can see themselves clearly again. He walks alongside people who fear death, abandonment, or being judged, asking nothing but respect in return. Walter says service is what keeps him alive now. Without the chance to stand with others, to use his lived experience for their benefit, he has nothing he would want to live for.
“I have also generational trauma. Passed down through my parents' genes, for what they had to go through.”
“I stand here today with my only living relative that I have absolute contact is my sister. I don't have contact with my wife. I don't have contact with my children.”
“For me, it's only about giving back to other people and standing with them. Because if that goes, I have nothing to live for.”
The hero, today
Generational trauma is real and inherited; Walter discovered he had the same nightmares as his mother only when he finally listened to her testimony decades later. Walter learned to read people and negotiate outcomes by removing emotion from the equation, a skill he now uses to help others see past their own stuck patterns. The act of writing your life down, getting it out of your head and onto paper, is the first step toward seeing yourself clearly enough to move forward. When Walter sits with people who fear death or abandonment, he does not offer solutions; he listens until they feel heard, which is often what changes their willingness to stay. Walter will not charge money for his volunteer work because anything people receive for free they do not respect, and he wants them to value what they are gaining. Service is what keeps Walter alive now; without the chance to give back and stand with others, he has nothing he would want to live for.
Yes. Walter Frankel is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Generational trauma is real and inherited; Walter discovered he had the same nightmares as his mother only when he finally listened to her testimony decades later.
Walter learned to read people and negotiate outcomes by removing emotion from the equation, a skill he now uses to help others see past their own stuck patterns.
The act of writing your life down, getting it out of your head and onto paper, is the first step toward seeing yourself clearly enough to move forward.
When Walter sits with people who fear death or abandonment, he does not offer solutions; he listens until they feel heard, which is often what changes their willingness to stay.
John Milham (Host) · 00:00
This limited Kintsugi Heroes podcast series was made possible through grant funding provided by the New South Wales Department of Communities and Justice Connecting Seniors grant program. If you'd like to find out more about Kintsugi Heroes, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au. Welcome to our Kintsugi Heroes special series, Connecting Seniors, where we share the experiences of aging Australians to create connections across our communities. In this episode, John Millum had a chat with Walter Frankel, a dedicated mental health advocate and senior support volunteer hailing from a background marked by deep historical trauma. Walter has turned his personal experiences into a mission to foster connection, empathy, and meaningful conversations among mature age individuals.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 00:55
Now let's get to the conversation.
John Milham (Host) · 00:59
So ladies and gentlemen, and, uh, welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes Podcast and, uh, Today, it's a great privilege to be talking to someone in our Connecting Seniors series. And today we introduce the challenging, self-described challenging Walter Frankel. Walter, welcome to Kintsugi Heroes Connecting Seniors. So good to have you on board today.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 01:25
Thank you very much.
John Milham (Host) · 01:26
Well, absolutely. I think everybody's story has the gold in it. That's where we get to touch our own story through the words of others and the experiences of others. So fantastic to have you here today. And in terms of bio, Walter, as mentioned, I love to hear an introduction from your own perspective. So I'm going to ask you to tell the listeners today who Walter Frankl is.
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This conversation includes a child of holocaust survivors, the move to south africa, and his mother's warning, australia at twelve, and a decision made, the breakdown, and doctors who did not listen, covid and the tape: understanding inherited trauma and his father's silence, and his mother's readiness to run.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 01:57
He's a very complex individual. That I can tell you. But to start at the very beginning, I am a child of Holocaust survivors. I was born in Zimbabwe, which was Rhodesia, grew up there. Wow. Then went at 16. I now worked out why we left at 16, because obviously my parents didn't want me to serve in the Rhodesian Army. So we went to Cape Town, which was the only place my father would go to. Although my mother suggested we go overseas somewhere else, right? He said, and my mother was a very wise woman. She turned around to my dad and said, that's fine, Martin, if you want to go, we'll go. But just understand that in about 20 years' time, it's not— South Africa is not going to be the same place you see it as now. That was We left in '69.
John Milham (Host) · 02:56
Wow.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 02:56
And 1989 is when the change and Nelson Mandela came forward.
John Milham (Host) · 03:02
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 03:03
And yeah, so very much aware of who I am and the conditions. And whilst I think my parents were kind and caring to the indigenous people, we weren't. I know that in about '59, we experienced the Belgian Congolese refugees coming down. And around about the same time in '65, I had a schoolteacher who went to Australia, right, holiday. That inspired me. From that point, I decided, and I did my little bit of research. I said, now that's where I'm gonna go live. I was 12 years old at that time. I knew I was coming to Australia. I just had to find my meal ticket. And in 1984, I achieved my meal ticket. I was, as I call it, deported from South Africa as part of a team to set up a project in Brisbane, which was called the Pick 'n' Pay, hyper-massive retail organisation in South Africa. Not— didn't make it in Australia. We tried twice and failed twice. But that is because they had the wrong attitude in my opinion, to how to deal and do business in Australia. They didn't have the concept that they are nobody here and they have to become somebody. So that's the journey. And then in '84, I got to Brisbane and I thank a family, I won't mention the name, in Melbourne who actually paid for my sponsorship here. They were partners in the venture. Within 24 hours of all the, you know, bits and pieces, They organized me a permanent residency. These people are not coming here as, um, workers who are going back in 3 years' time. So I'm indebted to that family eternally.
John Milham (Host) · 04:55
Right. So your mother was a, a, you know, a natural social researcher and she understood the, that the nature of change and did that inspire you is like your future?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 05:09
Well, I should have taken on a lot of things on the road and remembered and watched it and taken action. But like all, we, you know, we go through young and we think we know everything and do everything. So yeah, I've made my fair share of mistakes, not read the road signs properly. Nonetheless, it's how I got here. And about 5 years ago now, I decided that I could not tolerate the dysfunctionality, toxicity of my family, and I moved out.
John Milham (Host) · 05:41
Wow.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 05:42
I had a significant mental breakdown over the years. Some of it is being induced by some of the psychotic drugs that doctors give you. I promise you, they don't tell you the side effects.
John Milham (Host) · 05:56
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 05:57
And I had great difficulty in connecting with the medical profession, particularly psychiatrists and psychologists. And when I apply my knowledge of education, they don't know how to communicate, those people. Because the art of communication is the art of connection. You've got to know how to connect to the individual. It's not the individual connecting with you. If you're the professional, you've got to connect with them.
John Milham (Host) · 06:28
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 06:29
And so I started to learn about mental health and I've done, ah, it goes into pages and I, when I say pages, literally pages of research, learning, reading about mental health. And I've qualified myself as a mental health, um, first aider suicide prevention, which is obviously offered in service to people. In personal capacity, in a group discussion groups in there. So I've become passionate about something I knew nothing about, but I knew I had to because the doctors were just screwing with my head, to be honest. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 07:08
Walter, um, just, uh, uh, interesting. So have you, um, have you read, uh, Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 07:18
5 years ago. I've always known about Viktor Frankl. 5 years ago in COVID, I got the book, I got the audio, and I read it. I've gotta tell you, it's quite difficult reading. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 07:30
Yeah. Yeah. It's an amazing story. And I wonder as a child of like Viktor Frankl's story, obviously, you know, begin, you know, his experience in concentration camps in Germany framed his, the rest of his life as a—
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 07:46
framed all of our lives.
John Milham (Host) · 07:47
Yeah. So how, as a child of Holocaust survivors, how did, how do you think that was something that played into your world? You mentioned that you split from your family.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 07:58
So look, I have, again, it's because I read to find out, to understand. Yeah. And it took me to COVID to understand that I have also generational trauma.
John Milham (Host) · 08:11
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 08:12
Yeah. Passed down through my parents' genes, for what they had to go through. And what— and how did I work it out? I decided while in— during COVID to listen to a tape that my mother did in Sydney to the university here as a survivor. Now, I've had that since 1992, I think, if I'm right, in my folders, but I never wanted to listen to it because Hearing the voices, quite. And therein, I said, oh my God, yeah, my mother had the same nightmare dreams that I had as a child. And she never said to me they were the same. No, actually had the same. They hid things from us. So yeah, it does affect you. It does affect your thinking. It affects your way you deal with people. I think I'm a better person for what they had to endure. Because I have got a social bend in me. I don't have the drive of money is all, and, you know, yeah, so I'm not a narcissistic tendency person. You know, I'm there to help people. I'm there to do things. I work to, to do my best, and I don't say yes to— I'm no yes man to anybody, which doesn't help sometimes in corporate life. Yeah, particularly when you're right and you've— they discovered, and then they have to deal with you.
John Milham (Host) · 09:34
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, that's always a challenge, right? So I'm interested in, um, you know, how, uh, how do you think your parents manage? Like, you know, obviously they moved from South Africa and, um, to Australia, and, you know, there was a lot of—
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 09:52
they've spent a life effectively, you can say, on the run. They've never settled. Yeah, well, and there's always been someone in their lives that have helped and portrayed. You know, I could start with during the war, my mom was in Holland. She was Dutch. There was a Dutch resistance couple that were ultimately the savior of my mother through the war. Unfortunately, they did not manage to save her mother, brother, and sister who were taken to Sobibor concentration camp. And there's a story within there. I have met the couple on numerous occasions through my life. So my mother was always on alert, she spent her life on alert, you know, so that's what she did. On the other hand, my father was in Dachau concentration camp, picked up on Kristallnacht. And effectively, my mom used to say, Dad died in the camp, he just now lives to be able to survive. He never taught, not a word. My mother would tell us sporadic things. My father, it was sealed, never to be talked about. So fortunately, they traveled around. So from South Africa, when we went to Australia, my wife and myself and children, eventually my parents went to join my sister who went to Israel.
John Milham (Host) · 11:21
Right.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 11:22
And that was a bit of a shock to my father's system. He couldn't stand it because he couldn't communicate. He didn't know the language and they were going to go back to South Africa. And I said, no, I've got some money at the moment. And I put a deposit down on a Retirement Village little unit.
John Milham (Host) · 11:41
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 11:42
Funnily enough, I now live in those units myself. And unfortunately, Dad only lasted 18 months here before his heart gave in. And then my mom said, I'm gonna go visit Judith, my sister. And I knew that point, she's not coming back. Yeah, she did come back for a few visits. But the relationship between my sister and my mother with my wife wasn't quite— there was a lot of jealousy on my side of it. Anyway, so yeah, my mom's always been on alert. You know, you would see her sitting on a chair and she's sitting ready to run. She's not sitting to be comfortable. She was a mental health nurse, by the way.
John Milham (Host) · 12:28
Wow. Well, you know, lived experience drives passion, doesn't it? So, and in some ways, you know, you're, you mentioned, um, your experience, you know, it's just self-described as, uh, you know, as I do, as complicated. Right. So how do you think your experiences with your family and your, you know, perhaps the generational element of, of their experience passing to you, how did that shape your future?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 12:57
It very much did with relationship between myself and my sister. There is absolute trust. There is no bias, there is no criticism necessary. There is criticism, but it's meant not in the sense of hurting somebody. We believe in each other. We were brought up to know that we were the only things that work together in this world, right? We are there to support each other through to the end. You know, to the extent that when my mother passed away, her will was slightly messed up because the old girl didn't get things right and circumstances changed, didn't update them. And so they had trouble processing the will. So I said, look, do me a favor, give me the pieces of paper, I'll sign it all over to you. 'You finish it off. It doesn't matter. I don't want the money. You know, you had the lion's share of taking care.' So she finished it up. And then she said, 'I've opened up two bank accounts. One is in my name for you, and one is in my name for me. It's called— I've cut it down half and half.' To this day, I do not know how much money she got, or what— how she does it. But she has absolute discretion. If she or her children need something, they get it. We are just like— we are strong since childhood. And in fact, I'm going to surprise her in 2 weeks' time to pitch up for her granddaughter, one of her granddaughter's weddings. She doesn't get that I'm coming.
John Milham (Host) · 14:27
Wow.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 14:28
I'm just going to rock up at the front door.
John Milham (Host) · 14:30
That'd be wonderful. And that's in Israel.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 14:32
So that's in Israel. Yeah. And it's one of these um, ultra-religious groups her daughter lives in amongst.
John Milham (Host) · 14:40
Wow.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 14:40
And who, and the kids, the two others are normal, but the, that trip, that's my sister's daughters. So yeah, it's, wow. It'll be an interesting blend of cultures.
John Milham (Host) · 14:50
Wow. It's a, a fascinating adventure at the moment. So yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 14:53
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 14:53
So yeah. Well, enjoy the wedding. Uh, it's a lovely gesture. How did that, so that relationship with your family, the, the complexities that, you know, past trauma bring into that. How did that inspire your relations? You mentioned you, you, you, your, you and your wife and children migrated to, to, to, to Australia. Yeah. So how was your, you know, how was that process and, you know, what did your background mean for your family?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 15:20
The coming to Australia was not a problem. The settling into Australia was not a problem. The problems that I occurred was the dysfunctionality of my family to one another and the value system ultimately that we had. You know, we went through the scapegoats, we blaming somebody else, you name it, we did it. That had a profound effect because for me, I was brought up that family is unconditional. And on my wife's side, that didn't appear to be the same. And over the years, I saw the road signs, but I did not read them or take heed of them. It took me 48 years to come to realization of what damage it had done to me as a person.
John Milham (Host) · 16:06
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 16:07
And trying, trying to change my belief system, my value system, and I allowed people to overstep my boundaries.
John Milham (Host) · 16:17
So what did that realization do in your life?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 16:21
It caused me a lot of trauma. Because I didn't speak up. I let it happen, anything to have peace and quiet. So you could technically say I was passive-aggressive. In other words, and I think I got that from my father, right? Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 16:39
Well, he was, yeah, like, yeah, it's a, it's an important influence, isn't it? You know, like, you know, in frame, you understand relationships in the context of the people who taught you first, often. So yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 16:52
But what he did teach me in the last 5 years in particular, is how to help people and not label people. Yes, I put a label to a person in my head, but I don't tell them, you are that, because that is very hurtful, can cause more damage than it can cause good. But what It does allow me, because negotiation is one of my strengths and things that I've done in my life, it gives me the ability to read you and understand you. And therefore I can expect your behavior before you even have to tell me something. Yeah. And I've got many examples in that area where I've used it.
John Milham (Host) · 17:34
I'm just to, um, uh, just to take up a little bit more time with, you know, uh, you, you mentioned 48 years, right? You know, of go getting to a point. Where, you know, something changed. So what was, what was, how do you feel about like the, the whole journey of family? Right. So you, you know, your relationship with your wife, you, you mentioned was, you know, was problematic at times. I'm sure we're, you know, all relationships have the ups and downs.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 18:02
All relationships are difficult. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 18:05
And of course your, you know, your, your, uh, children are all part of it. How did that play out for you?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 18:10
The— I stand here today with my only living relative that I have absolute contact is my sister. I don't have contact with my wife. I don't have contact with my children. They don't have contact with each other. It is really a great tragedy because that's not how I was raised and not part of my belief system. But I also know that it's beyond my control. Number one. And number two is my only fear now is if some, if one of them arrive at my front door, am I able to accept an apology or start again? And that is simply my biggest fear.
John Milham (Host) · 18:52
Do you, how, how do you respond to that? Like at the point where all of that starts to play out and things break down, that's a very tough position for anybody to be in for a man. Who, you know, particularly with a, you know, with, you know, a history of sort of, you know, of parents and sort of practice of holding things back. Uh, how did you cope with that situation where the social fabric, the support and, you know, process, your intimate relationships were breaking down?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 19:21
Look, um, from a commercial business point of view, I actually had some fantastic people who were I won't say mentors, but they had a significant influence in helping me. And basically I threw myself into my work because I had to make a living and I couldn't cope with both sides of the ledger. And keeping a job was the important thing. When I got to retirement, I decided, no, I can't do this anymore. And that's— and it, you know, I was actually quite mentally ill. I was hospitalized. And I started to see things from a different lens.
John Milham (Host) · 20:01
Mm-hmm.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 20:02
And I started to see things, what I didn't like within my family.
John Milham (Host) · 20:07
Mm-hmm.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 20:08
Some of their attitudes and their values. And money is a big one. I don't care about money. Money is just there to provide. And yet on my side of the family there, that's all they thought about is where's the money? Bring me some more money, give me this, do this, I need that. I didn't like that. You know, I'm not saying I'm a capitalist. I'm a quasi-capitalist because I believe in the capitalist system. But I am a socialist in terms of how capitalism should be. So I'm quite at odds with various governments because I believe in helping people. And my family didn't seem to see that. Now, in saying that, my sister's a socialist. She lives on a kibbutz. That's socialism. That's what it is. Yeah. They have tremendous problems having to deal with it because it's committees on committees who decide when things go. So that part I couldn't deal with. I'm an autocrat from that point.
John Milham (Host) · 21:10
Well, it's, you know, any, you know, idolizing any kind of system is like, you know, a recipe for being hit by its problems, right? So no, um, you've got to be prepared to change. Yeah. And, and you have changed, right? You know, like the journey from your working and professional life and family life to through, um, you know, challenging your mental, uh, your mental health, right? And having to deal with that. How, as a, as a man with a, you know, professional track record and success and, you know, being able to you know, to handle lots of difficult transitions in your life. How did you feel about suddenly being part of the system?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 21:52
I must— okay, look, from a young age, my mother taught my sister and myself life changes. And she made very certain that through various points, she had changed things in our lives. Typically for the better in her viewpoint, not necessarily ours at the time. Yeah. But she was significant in acknowledging the life of change. So we grew up with that in our minds. It wasn't something we contested. Most people don't like change because it's disruptive. It's unpleasant, you have to give up something, whatever. So I've always been able to adapt to change. That's why I came to Australia, because the social structure, the society here suited my viewpoint. It wasn't the same, but it was closely the only place in the world that was similar, and it was the furthest place from everywhere. But so I've always acknowledged change where other people don't wish to change that, you know, and they believe they're right at all costs.
John Milham (Host) · 23:05
But it's a big change to go from, um, you know, a working life and family to end up being in a position where you, uh, um, you know, you're relying on people helping you through, um, uh, you know, what is a, a, you know, a challenging time for a man to realize that he needs to be helped at that point.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 23:27
Look, I have been throughout my life, I've not had a big range of friendships because I have trust issues. But I've always come across and from, I don't know whether you call right field, left field, I get confused. But there's always somebody that enters my life at a certain point when I'm in need and helps me. Who guides me, who gives to me.
John Milham (Host) · 23:54
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 23:55
Um, and so I've all, I don't fear because I know that it's gonna be there and that I am capable. And of course I think I'm reasonably educated and I wouldn't like to overestimate, but I know how to navigate and negotiate my way through. Right. So that saves me. And people know, have learned, don't try to negotiate with Walter. He will beat you at the the game, simply because I know how to remove myself from the negotiation in terms of the emotional side. And I know how to research and find things that I've even beaten lawyers at their own game, just because I'm just one step ahead of them. I think it through. And that's what I try to give people now. Some of that experience.
John Milham (Host) · 24:48
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 24:48
Don't just stop and say, no, this is no good. I'm gonna, uh, I said, forget it. You've got to think differently. You've gotta take a different approach to the way you have a conversation, the way you see things.
John Milham (Host) · 25:02
So is it that value? Is it that capacity that has, uh, helped you, you know, move on, like into recovery and into, you know, uh, a second stage?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 25:14
Yes, it is. Because I tend to meet people, as I say, I've only got a small circle of people in my life, but across the world. And they all came to me left field, that they weren't supposed to be there. But they came in. And because we had a personal connection, and we'd had those conversations, we didn't judge each other, they stretched their arm out and lift, which is what I do to others now. I just stretch my arm out. If you want it, I'm there. And I don't invade their space. I leave myself side by side with them as I walk them through. And I have had to learn to listen as opposed to speak.
John Milham (Host) · 25:56
So there's a lot of, a lot of life skills that you're sharing that, you know, hinting at are important for the listeners to know. So that's really like you were mentioning. Earlier, you know, how you help people. That's a theme now. So what, what about, like, now you do, um, support and training and, you know, community work. So what about that is important to you now and why does that seem to work to keep, um, you moving forward?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 26:26
Okay. Because people need help. Not everybody is self-sufficient. Not everybody is academically qualified or emotionally qualified to handle things. And my attitude is, if I can support you and help you, I will do it. I won't ask you for money. All I ask you is I will respect you, you respect me. We might not have similar agreements in terms of values or political or religious convictions. But as long as you are legal, which we have chosen to live in, That's okay. When you move across the, the line and you go into the illegalities, no, I'll walk away. I won't get involved. I won't be pressurized any longer in my life to deal in the area of gray. And I have been there.
John Milham (Host) · 27:17
Yeah. So you, so what is that? Um, you know, you talk about, you know, sort of setting up into, into areas that, you know, are supporting people rather than sort of, you know, impacting or abusing people. So what does that involve now? What can you do as a person with lived experience? What can you do moving forward to help the community?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 27:40
I have one conversation at a time. I talk to anybody and everybody. I don't care who you are. I respect you as a human being, and I like to listen to other people's stories. I've learned a terrific amount through lived experience or what other people have told me. It's formed my view of this world. And I've got to be honest, at this moment in time, my view of this world is unbelievably blurry because I don't like what I'm seeing of man's inhumanity to man under the guise of religion, corporatization. I just find it to taste for, and it's unnecessary. And you know, there's just too much suffering at the hands of people who are very, very wrong in how they do things.
John Milham (Host) · 28:37
So as an, as a, as a person who's gone through a journey and understands that truth now, for you, that's the truth you, you, you understand is true. Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 28:47
And it's.
John Milham (Host) · 28:47
It's a truth that, you know, is focused on the wellbeing of the world. How do you believe you can make a difference and others like you can make a difference to the world so that that truth is actually more, more, more?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 29:02
Okay. So the one is you have, the first thing is you have to want to give back. If you don't want to give back to society, you've got the biggest problem to overcome. The other thing is The only way I can give back is to use my lived experience, my academic knowledge, and my thirst, which has always been there. I love information. I don't read books for its storytelling purposes. I read information, and the web has been my greatest resource. I carry a disc around with me when I go anywhere. It's got over 50,000 documents, photographs, information on the topics that I'm thinking. So I make myself informed. I don't just create an opinion about because somebody said so. I'm interested, or I believe it's worthy, I go and research it.
John Milham (Host) · 29:59
So you talked about earlier, we were chatting and you mentioned your work with the School of Uh, elders, elders at the Wesley Mission. Wow, that's a fascinating concept. What, what, what, uh, what do they do there? What do you do there?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 30:16
Well, I, I've met the person by accident who runs it, right? And she said, what can you do for me? Went through the discussion. I suppose I could run a course for you. And so I came up with a name. Uh, I've changed it a bit and I use different words. I call it discussing the elephant in the room. And I had a whole range of topics. I changed it recently to just narrow the topics, but still cover the same width of it because I think it was overpowering with so many topics, right? To out of the box discussions. So I just created, and I like talking to people.
John Milham (Host) · 30:52
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 30:53
So I meet people in little different ways and they like to come and talk to me often. Get on there early and somebody will just sit down with me and want to know. They may not come to the class, but they just want to know and hear.
John Milham (Host) · 31:04
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 31:05
And I'm here to share.
John Milham (Host) · 31:07
And who's this aimed for? Who are you having conversations with?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 31:11
These are mature-aged people who are lonely, who need socialization, and the mission is actually getting it to them.
John Milham (Host) · 31:22
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 31:23
And the The nice part for me, I suppose, is I don't earn any money, so I'm not accountable to do things as such. It's all voluntary, but people pay to hear me, and that goes into the, um, mission's, um, coffers to help them do more programs. If I do it, and there are people in my own grouping who do it, they charge for it. No, if I have to charge for it, I'm gonna have to deal with all the difficulties of people. You can charge for it as long as you make some money on it.
John Milham (Host) · 31:58
Mm-hmm.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 31:58
But don't give it to them for nothing. Mm-hmm. Is my thing, because anything that people see is for nothing, don't necessarily, they respect it.
John Milham (Host) · 32:06
Right. I, I, I was just wondering, what do you think, like, so reaching out, like supporting others and elders, like people are lonely and this is a form of connection. Of course, we're talking about Connected Seniors. What do you think conversation and signing up and having conversations— what do you think the power of that is?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 32:25
The power is giving somebody a voice, um, giving them an opportunity to talk about their troubles in a confidential manner, being able to get some advice how to deal with the issues that worry them, the fear of abandonment, the fear of death. What do they have to get to do? How do they talk to their family and friends about their wishes, their dying wishes? What are the things they need to do? They are very appreciative because they— some, most of them have heard things, but they don't know how to sew it together like a piece of cloth, and they get confused. And of course, as you get older, the harder it is to jumble all this thing into a logical order. Fortunately, I still have those faculties.
John Milham (Host) · 33:17
Yeah, that's handy. Um, I'm fascinated by the, the people you, you mentioned conversations around death and lived experience and, and stuff and, and creating a space. What are these, what's the essential components of that space?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 33:36
The component of the space, that space is the trust. The knowledge and that they think. I'll relay you an incident that happened a few weeks ago, and we were talking about, because the laws are coming in, in New South Wales on coercive control.
John Milham (Host) · 33:53
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 33:53
So I brought that up as a discussion, right? We chatted about it. And three quarters of the way through, there was this beautiful lady. She's nearly 90 years old. And she said, you know what, I've just realized, I lived my life with my late husband, he had coercive control over me.
John Milham (Host) · 34:14
Yeah, you know, yeah, probably true, right?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 34:18
Because most people don't actually understand the lingos that come up, the language, what do the words mean. Now I can't spell for nothing, believe me, if you look through my files, but I had always been very attuned to what a word means. Are people using it in the correct context? So every day I get words coming through on my emails and I, yeah, 9 times outta 10, I know them. Occasionally I don't, and occasionally I don't wanna look at them.
John Milham (Host) · 34:47
Yeah. Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 34:48
It's interesting.
John Milham (Host) · 34:48
Modern, in modern terms, um, you know, language is being weaponized more than it ever has, right? So horribly So, so part of the components, you, you, you were telling me that, you know, in one of your statements you mentioned the safe space to talk. How important is it now to create those, you know, those safe places?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 35:09
Very important, because until you can get the person to accept the situation they find themselves in, to have a plan of how to deal with it so that they don't feel vulnerable or any more abandoned, because those are the fears that most mature people have: the fear of being judged, being abandoned, or being held ransom. So I, I address their real fears.
John Milham (Host) · 35:38
And of course, you mentioned abandoned, right? That sense now that the older generation are, are a burden. They're not, they're not productive anymore or effective. Or, you know, um, the sense that they have nothing more to offer. That's a real problem in, in community. How do you see that in your connections and, and, uh, creating spaces for these people to share their challenges?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 36:02
Um, I find it personally challenging. That's why I do what I do, because retirement is not nice. You know, you, your friends are no longer, they're dying off. Um, you have to move away because of financial reasons or family reasons, everything in your life's changing and you're not equipped for it. Now, men in particular find it very, very lonely because they don't— we don't know how to reconnect with other people. We don't know how people will help you. Where do you do it? And having the courage to do it. Yeah, it's, it's very daunting. And for me, it's even more daunting. Because the moment I personally lose my ability to have my freedom in that sense, is the day I don't live any longer. Because it's like living in God's waiting room, waiting for your number to be called. Otherwise, yeah. And that makes me able to understand when I'm dealing with people, say, with suicidal ideation, with family matters, I see it from their eyes, not from my eyes, their eyes. How do we get you to at least be able to deal with it and live with it somehow? What are your wishes?
John Milham (Host) · 37:20
Well, so when faced with those big concerns, what, what is your response? How do you engage people in and give them the, um, the support or the walk with them? I, I know you've mentioned walking with them. How do you, uh, walk with them so that they choose to continue to strive and and live?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 37:38
I just be honest. I just am with them. Yeah. I've learned not to talk until they have talked to me. So I don't make presumptions and I listen. I empathize with them. I don't sympathize with them because there's a big difference between the two. So I walk with them means I listen, I hear, and only when you allow me to talk Do I— or ask me to talk, do I talk? I let them talk it through because part of the talk is the therapy of putting it out of your system, getting it out of you so that you can cope with it. Because most of us have movies in our heads.
John Milham (Host) · 38:21
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 38:22
And it keeps changing.
John Milham (Host) · 38:23
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 38:24
And after a while you actually don't know what is fact or fable.
John Milham (Host) · 38:29
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 38:29
One of the first exercises Yeah, I do with people is I say, please take everything you know of your life's journey and put it in writing, whether it's writing physically, digitally, like you're recording, put it out there, and then take the helicopter view of it and start. Because only once you can reconnect to who you believe you are, yeah, can you move forward and deal with the issues. Getting it out there helps you to start that journey. It may take you quite a while. I've done all that and nobody told me. I just started doing it. Well, journaling, I've discovered. Yeah. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 39:07
Wow.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 39:07
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 39:08
Well, it must be a book in that somewhere. It's great advice, that whole narrative of our lives, which we get trapped into sharing sometimes without, you know, realizing that we have the power to edit all the bad bits out, right? Once we've lived them, we don't need to go over them again.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 39:23
So, One of the essential parts of your journaling your life is never to hand that document with all the bad stuff or make it available because it is only going to give you— it's about you getting it out of you, getting it out of your system, acknowledging it. But I've got to say to you, because other people invade your privacy, and I know that from very personal experience, and being the type of person I did, I used to leave my notes lying around. Because that was the way I messaged him.
John Milham (Host) · 39:53
Right. Somebody reading your diary again, right?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 39:56
Yes. Or opening your computer and reading your emails.
John Milham (Host) · 40:01
Right. Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 40:01
Or checking where your phone is and where you've been. No, it's not. It's very, that is a very unhealthy situation.
John Milham (Host) · 40:10
And so many relationships struggle, you know, with that level of trust, don't they?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 40:14
So, yeah, absolutely they do.
John Milham (Host) · 40:17
So a tough question because you talked about the real conversations you're creating a space to have. And of course, for older Australians, all of us are talking and maybe thinking, maybe not talking, or maybe worried about our own mortality. So you mentioned having conversations real conversations about death and dying. How does that play out?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 40:46
Look, I don't fear death personally. I don't know what is after death. I know you, we all have tales and stories told to us by various people, cults, religions. Hmm. I don't have a fear of dying. I don't have a fear that if there is a maker, I've got to meet the maker and make atonement because I'm comfortable, not necessarily happy, but I'm comfortable. We don't know when death is going to happen. It's, it's one of the givens in this world. You are going to die. Just when, where, and how is to be seen. And that is the thing, is giving people the feeling that they are being heard, that they are prepared, that they have acknowledged what their wishes are. And getting people to respect them, whether they agree with them or not is irrelevant.
John Milham (Host) · 41:39
Yeah. Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 41:40
It's respect and making them comfortable that yeah, it's gonna happen. Death occurs at the most disadvantageous time in people's lives.
John Milham (Host) · 41:50
Yeah. And like, um, the great Australian Patria King often talks about, you know, living, you know, living for a day or dying for a decade. Right. So, um, how do you think, um, uh, having those conversations help older Australians improve the quality of their life?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 42:08
It's called acceptance. There's a theory called acceptance theory.
John Milham (Host) · 42:13
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 42:13
We won't go into the theory, but it's people accepting where they're at, the situation of that, and knowing what pathways they can choose if they want to try to improve it. The current situation. A lot of people just stay in the current because that's where they're comfortable, even if it's terrible. Yeah, it's because they've chosen for whatever reason. It's giving them the power to think, the power to choose, and the right to do it. And it's all about empowerment. You know, I grew up in the age when you went to all these seminars and you had the rah-rah and everything else, everybody's gonna empower Everybody had a system. I really quickly found out, yeah, they've got systems and they charge you thousands of dollars to buy their system and they don't work. They don't work simply because they're not your system. They're not your system. It's the guy that's selling it to you.
John Milham (Host) · 43:14
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 43:14
Very few actually accomplish anything with these seminars they go to. Hopefully they make them feel better. I went there to learn how these people worked.
John Milham (Host) · 43:25
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 43:26
How they worked the floor. And it's amazing what people do. Empowering people to be in control of themselves. And if you go back to Viktor Frankl, that was how he managed to survive Auschwitz concentration camp. And that's where he wrote the book, The Meaning to Life. A Japanese concept similar to his, it's called ikigai. I can't pronounce it properly.
John Milham (Host) · 43:51
Ikigai. Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 43:52
Yeah. Ikigai. That's it. Um, very, very similar philosophy and it's understanding these things and choosing which bits resonate with you as worthwhile. Not, you have to do it all. No, you take what's worth, what resonates with you.
John Milham (Host) · 44:10
Yeah. I was very much inspired by Ikigai and Viktor Frankl. Um, uh, So, and of course, Viktor Frankl's quote from Man's Search for Meaning, you know, between stimulus and response is a space and that space, a choice can be made. And in that choice, you can find freedom and growth. I love, you know, I've embraced that now more as I got older than I ever did when I was young. So what is it about reaching a certain age and being and and then, you know, choosing to grow from that point, it seems like a bit of a waste of time, a bit of Benjamin Button. Maybe we should have done it at the start.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 44:51
Look, we should have done it at the start. You're right. The problem is none of us do because we're too busy trying to support the lifestyle we choose to live. We get to the mature end of our life and what we have is a lot of lived experience and regret. And it, it depends on, do I take the opportunity to look at it in a positive light, or do I take it in an attitude of the victim? I've been hurt and I've been done hard by. We were definitely the only species on this earth who has been given the ability to choose. Animals don't have an ability to choose. Humans have the ability to choose and they can do either the right way or the wrong way. That's about as the best of my religious convictions.
John Milham (Host) · 45:43
Right, right. So speaking of convictions, right, you've been on a, um, a fascinating journey as a, as a, a, a, an adult and it's had, you know, pain and challenge, uh, your personal pain and, and, and social pain. What do you, you know, when we get to this stage, what's the good thing about being here right now?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 46:08
For me, it's only about giving back to other people and standing with them.
John Milham (Host) · 46:11
Yeah.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 46:12
Because if that goes, I have nothing to live for. I don't wanna sit in a chair all day and do nothing or watch the Gogglebox. Yeah, I quite happy to watch certain things on, but it's not the stimulation. Being able to do something and use your life's experience to the betterment of mankind, that's important.
John Milham (Host) · 46:36
So service is life now for you?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 46:40
Yeah, it is a life. I volunteer for certain organizations and I'm on call. If you need me, I'm there. There's certain organizations I have because I don't now agree with their philosophy or that their seniority follows out their philosophies. But, you know, I give to others. So yeah, I've, I just want to do things and it keeps me occupied and it keeps me mentally agile as I work through it. I'm a solution person. I don't create problems. I find solutions.
John Milham (Host) · 47:11
And what, what, what would you like? Uh, you have opportunities, you bring people into a room, you create a safe space for them to talk. And they share their conversation. What do you think inspires people to keep growing at this, you know, even as an older Australian?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 47:29
Encouragement from your family and friends that you are worthy and that what you have lived is valuable to all. The problem is getting others to acknowledge you. That could be significant others, it could be others in terms of friendship or corporate or business life or academic life, and your family not shutting you down or shutting you up, being, hey, that's great. The thought that you could pass on a segment of just something good to somebody that in later life they wake up and said, you know what, Granddad actually said that to me. Manny was clever that they are, you know, you may not be there any longer, but they've taken it on board because they didn't judge you or criticize you when you were passing on the information. Being heard, that's all human beings want to be done, is being heard. And it's difficult in today's society, in particularly the noisy social media side, in the busy lifestyles that we have challenged ourselves to be in. Having a meaningful conversation around a table doesn't really exist. You know, I grew up every night, we had dinner together, not each one coming to get their TV tray and go sitting. We sat around the table, things were talked about. Not only were things talked about, but Dad's business was discussed at the table. And rightfully, we knew that we were trusted to be allowed that information of knowledge. And we knew that we were to pass it on to our friends or their families, what we knew, because, you know, industrial espionage has been around since forever.
John Milham (Host) · 49:22
So, and that's, you know, interesting that the, the opportunities you describe are all sort of psychosocial. Right. But you know, like there are, you know, physical and systemic barriers to older people that they're having to overcome. There's, you know, housing and finance and, you know, health care and yeah. So what, how do you, what's the best approach? You know, what are the challenges that older Australians are facing and that, you know, we, and how do we sort of help all of us get through that?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 50:01
Become involved to the best of your ability, capability, and willingness. To sit detached doesn't help. To sit and complain as the victim doesn't help. You need to be proactive, even if it's just a little thing. And don't judge somebody else. You haven't walked in their shoes. Sympathetic? No. Be empathetic. Yes. In other words, you've just got to be there in the moment. Because you can't necessarily do anything, you can't necessarily fix everything. And there are some wonderful people out there who do everyday volunteering and helping. And the one thing I can tell you is you feel much better in yourself when you've given than when you have taken. Yeah. You're grateful when you've taken, but giving is much better than taking.
John Milham (Host) · 50:55
I think that's a strong place to go move forward. And talking of moving forward, you personally, what, Walter, what are you looking forward to in the future as you, as we all get a bit older?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 51:11
Well, that is the million-dollar question. I actually don't know. All I know is I don't want it to be worse than what it is now.
John Milham (Host) · 51:20
Right?
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 51:21
That's— I do know. But you know, we all have dreams, we all have aspirations, we all want to be loved, and be held and all these sorts of things. Are you making yourself available? Now, that is a big challenge to make yourself available to the opportunities or the, the giving. And because of our lived experience and the things that we've experienced, Sometimes it holds us back.
John Milham (Host) · 51:46
So making ourselves available, there's a great theme to end on, right? And that's wonderful advice and it's been really interesting. Thank you so much for sharing, being so open and vulnerable and sharing something of your story and also sharing something of your wisdom. I really appreciate that, Wollongong. It's been fabulous to chat.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 52:09
Thanks, John. It was nice doing it.
John Milham (Host) · 52:11
Yeah, well, and have a lovely, uh, overseas holiday. And I, I look— yeah, I hope you're, uh, yeah, I hope your surprise works wonderfully well.
Walter Frankel (Guest) · 52:23
It's done it before, so hopefully she doesn't smell a rat, my sister. At this stage, she could do it. She knows I'm, I'm very impromptu. I just decide at a moment's notice I'm going to do something.
John Milham (Host) · 52:34
So it sounds amazing. So safe travels and Thank you. Thank you, Walter. Thank you for listening to this episode of Connecting Seniors, a Consider Heroes special series. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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