Alyssa Chhim-Michelle
What I do while I can walk
Alyssa navigates genetic uncertainty, cultural duty, and her sister's progressive disability while building a different future for herself.
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Alyssa Chhim-Michelle
Alyssa navigates genetic uncertainty, cultural duty, and her sister's progressive disability while building a different future for herself.
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Alyssa Chhim-Michelle grew up in Southeast Melbourne as the youngest in a Cambodian Australian family shaped by her parents' escape from the genocide. While her older sisters lived under strict Cambodian rules, Alyssa and her brother experienced a more Australian household, though one value remained non-negotiable: duty to family. That duty intensified in high school when her father was diagnosed with spinocerebellar ataxia, a genetic condition affecting movement and coordination. Months later, her sister received the same diagnosis. When Alyssa was old enough to consider genetic testing, the weight of a 50 percent chance of inheriting the mutation felt like an impossible burden to disclose to a potential partner. She waited until she found someone willing to stand by her regardless of the result. Receiving her negative test result while preparing for her wedding in Istanbul brought relief, but seeing her sister's grief at being the only one with the condition shifted that joy into guilt.
Before her disability progressed, Alyssa's sister gave her a gift: a trip through Southeast Asia, paid for entirely, knowing mobility would become harder. That last journey together while her sister could still walk became golden. The disability has changed everything. Alyssa witnessed how quickly danger can strike when her sister's involuntary movements sent her face-first onto concrete while Alyssa was pushing her wheelchair. She has learned that people with disabilities at social gatherings often sit alone not because they cannot participate, but because others assume communication is too hard and do not try.
Today, Alyssa is an NDIS Plan nominee managing her father's care while pursuing a PhD researching workplace support for neurodivergent young adults. She works at a cemetery, a job that keeps her grounded about what matters. Shaped by her family's circumstances and her sister's generosity, she has made a conscious choice: to do differently. What will she do while she can walk? That question guides her now.
“The duty to your family is always the crux of everything. So, you know, your parents are treated as God because they gave life to you in that Cambodian Buddhist mentality.”
“Instead of putting, you know, toothpaste on the toothbrush, it was Bepanthen, which is this, you know, antiseptic cream, and he choked for like 3 hours.”
“I was like, oh, I probably do have it. So at least I found someone that's willing to like stand by me, um, and that was my choice because then I could kind of make that choice if I wanted to screen it out if we had kids or not.”
The hero, today
Alyssa's duty to her parents intensified when her father was diagnosed with spinocerebellar ataxia in her high school years, because in Cambodian Buddhist culture, serving aging parents as they lose function is the core of filial obligation. She chose to get genetic testing only after finding a husband who would accept her regardless of whether she carried the mutation, because the thought of disclosing a 50 percent chance of disability to a potential partner felt like an impossible burden when she was already struggling with her self-worth. The guilt Alyssa carries is not about whether her sister should have the disability, but about the specific gifts her sister gave her before becoming disabled, and now being unable to return them in the same way. Her sister communicates better with Alyssa than anyone else because Alyssa is not afraid to make jokes when she does not understand, to attempt to capture the essence of what was said rather than force repetition, and to shield her from embarrassment with her own confidence. People with disabilities at social gatherings often sit alone not because they cannot participate, but because others assume communication is too hard and do not try, so what matters is offering a warm question anyway.
Yes. Alyssa Chhim-Michelle is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Alyssa's duty to her parents intensified when her father was diagnosed with spinocerebellar ataxia in her high school years, because in Cambodian Buddhist culture, serving aging parents as they lose function is the core of filial obligation.
She chose to get genetic testing only after finding a husband who would accept her regardless of whether she carried the mutation, because the thought of disclosing a 50 percent chance of disability to a potential partner felt like an impossible burden when she was already struggling with her self-worth.
The guilt Alyssa carries is not about whether her sister should have the disability, but about the specific gifts her sister gave her before becoming disabled, and now being unable to return them in the same way.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 00:02
Across Australia, powerful stories of resilience, strength, and courage go unheard every day. Golden Threads: Stories of Disability and Resilience is here to change that. Hosted by me, Daniel Doherty, Golden Threads brings you honest and deeply personal conversations that invite you to explore what it means to adapt, persevere, and thrive in a world still learning what inclusion really means. Hi and welcome to another episode of Kintsugi Heroes. I'm host Daniel and I'm here with an exciting guest. She's young in age, but she has heaps loads of wisdom. She's wise beyond her years. She's adventurous. She's intelligent. She has a great story and kind of a unique story. So we're really, really looking forward to this conversation and hearing more about Alyssa's story. So I want to invite Alyssa Chim-Michelle to our conversation. Hi, Alyssa.
Guest · 01:03
Thanks, Dan, for the fabulous introduction there. Hi everyone, I'm Alyssa, and yes, I am a Cambodian Australian. So I was born and raised in Southeast Melbourne. I grew up in a family of 4. So my parents came to New Zealand actually as refugees during the Cambodian genocide war, um, in the late '70s. And so my older sisters were actually a toddler and a baby infant, and then they moved to Australia in the early '70s, um, in the early '90s where I was born, and then a year later my brother. And so, um, pretty much I guess everything who I am today shaped from them starting over as refugees. And then I pretty much, yeah, was raised in Melbourne here. And that's— glad to be here with you, Dad.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 01:59
Excellent. I want to hear— there's a lot to unpack and a lot to get into. But living and being raised, I think, as a young child, we know no different. So however we are raised as a child, those first few years, that's just normal. For your experience. But now looking back on it some years later, what was it like growing up in an immigrant family, even if you were born in Australia? What were some of the things that you noticed that might have been different maybe from some of your peers or other parts of the community?
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Her sister communicates better with Alyssa than anyone else because Alyssa is not afraid to make jokes when she does not understand, to attempt to capture the essence of what was said rather than force repetition, and to shield her from embarrassment with her own confidence.
This conversation includes born in melbourne, shaped by refugee parents, two versions of parenting under one roof, her grandfather chose land over survival, a japanese drama becomes her family's diagnosis, testing the gene while planning a wedding and relief turns to guilt for her sister.
Guest · 02:34
Great question. I guess obviously, like, food was always different as well. But culturally, I guess the main one, it's kind of quite interesting you say that because, because of the age gap when my sisters were born in Cambodia and when my brother were born 12, 14 years later after my sisters, it's kind of like we had two separate parents. So one were more raised in strict Cambodian culture. Sisters weren't allowed to go out in the evening. So I remember one time my sister was like, can I go out to the cinemas with my auntie to see it? Like, it was probably a PG-rated movie, but Mom and Dad— Dad was like, you know, in Cambodian culture, you can't be going out in the evening. Um, it's just like an opportunity to meet boys and things like that. So my dad was like, she's not a promiscuous girl. And this is her, his own sister. You can't take her out. And then you have me and my brother, we're growing up in the Australian household. And when I was going through that 16, 18-year-old period when I wanted to go out, I had none of that. My Mom and Dad were just very laid back. I was, you know, went clubbing like at 18, took the Knight Rider, um, you know, rang Mom and Dad, can you pick me up at, you know, 2 AM at the train station? And but mind you, Dandenong wasn't very safe either, and Dad was very happy to pick me up but not like allow my sister to go to the movie. So it's just quite that really big strict discrepancy between what they thought was okay with what they were brought up in the Cambodian mindset, and then after a good 15 years how much Australian culture had changed them. And so the one thing that was always maintained in that period for my sisters and then me and my brother was that duty to your family is always the, the crux of everything. So, you know, your parents are treated as God because they gave life to you in that Cambodian Buddhist mentality. Um, you are— the duties to your family. And so when you prioritize friends over that, or that wasn't okay. And so looking after, especially when they're getting older, in my case when a parent gets diagnosed with disability, it intensifies because your duty is to serve your parents as they age and, you know, go through life in that way.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 04:56
Yeah, uh, really interesting. And when you talk about family and talk about a duty to the family Is that just the nuclear family, those people in your household? Does it also extend to, you know, cousins, extended family? And when your parents came here, did you come with other family or was— is that all you had was the four— your four siblings and your two parents?
Guest · 05:19
Great question. It's pretty much their mom and dad are quite introverts, so they actually come from very big families. And because of the war, so dad was a family of six and mom was a family of five. And they all were able— all siblings and parents of my parents, like grandparents included— were able to be sponsored and, you know, run away from the genocide and all come to New Zealand or Cambodia. So now in Melbourne, all of our family, extended family, um, aunties and uncles, they're all here in Melbourne. Um, but the duty is initially to your parents and your siblings, so that immediate circle. Um, And that's where— that's the priority there.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 06:05
Oh, interesting. Really fascinating. And then also when you were growing up at home, let's say in your first— well, let's just call it your childhood. Was your parents' experience talked about at all? Or was the experience of running away and escaping from the genocide in Cambodia to a new land, was that ever talked about, or was it just kind of a secret and kind of the elephant in the room that was just never really talked about? What's your experience with that?
Guest · 06:34
Because it's negative, Mom never really talked about it. But when we, like, out of the family, I'm quite the chatterbox, so I was just out of curiosity wanting to learn a lot about the war. But when I did probe and hear some of the stories, um, the— they quite— it quite understands how resilient the Cambodian community is because they don't like to, because they're quite Buddhist mentality. They focus on the present, not so much the past or the future. It's very much embrace what you have in front of you, because if you get your mind, you can't control your mind on what happens in the past and you dwell on it, you can get quite depressed. And so Mum really nearly never really talked about unless I probed. When she did, there were quite really scary stories of like reliving it. So they lived in Baden-Baden, a village in there. And so when I did ask, she did say that They were very lucky because they were farmers. They didn't get mistreated as much as the city folks, which were the ones getting killed in the genocide. But in saying that, there was all these threats. So if you didn't listen to what the soldiers commanded you, they'd have like people killed and their heads being put on stakes to show you the violence and aggression of the— what the war was capable of. So if you didn't follow instructions, and if you say you stole food rations when you weren't entitled to them, you'd get punished as well. And my mum was pregnant at the time, uh, like had a baby to feed. So my oldest sister, um, she couldn't produce breast milk, so she'd boil water and feed the rice water to her baby at the time because she didn't have enough energy from the food rations because they could only get a little bit of rice and bits and bobs. And the farmers were well treated than the city folk, so they actually got more food than the city folk because they were farmers, but it was still not enough to produce breast milk. So you can just kind of see the scale of, um, in terms of not having enough food during that period of time for, for them. And it's just the things like they— and they did own a lot of land. My grandfather was, um, like a big wealthy farmer. Um, he'd actually come from politics and it wasn't for him, but they were quite well off. And so, um, in saying that, my grandfather was the one that said to my whole family we don't have any more prosperity. Like, he couldn't see a future because there were thieves stealing from the farms during that genocide war. So he was like, that our future in Cambodia— and he could see the future in terms of like, Cambodia is no longer like a safe and prosperity, like a country of prosperity. We need to leave. And this is coming from someone that had owned a lot of land and a lot of power in Cambodia, and he wondered what was best for his whole family. That's when they left to go to Thailand and run away.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 09:20
And when they left to run away and to escape that, uh, could they take any of that prosperity with them?
Guest · 09:28
No, he was— there was so much land. Well, my mom tells me how much land, um, he had planned. He, he was so knowledgeable, my grandfather. He was researching things about Thai, new Thai farming production methods, about how to grow this new vegetable that would have brought a lot of revenue. But he was saying like all these dreams of like you know, making that vegetable happen in Cambodia. He was very across it, very forefront into research, had a high level of education. He said nope, like he didn't know any other language besides Cambodian Thai at the time, like Khmer. And he was like, we need to leave. And so all of those dreams that the family had in expanding their land and their empire, they just left it because he could see where it was going, the war. And he chose to just leave what they had.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 10:20
Wow, that's incredible. Coming from my background, growing up in America, we were taught a lot about the Holocaust, you know, in Germany and Poland and those areas and the devastation that occurred. I was ignorant, completely ignorant of the things that were happening during my lifetime in Cambodia. And so, yeah, to meet people, to have this conversation with you is really, really eye-opening to me in a way that I just never knew that people were living this way in today's world with the prosperity that I was used to just on a daily life. And so to hear this and to hear that your grandfather had prosperity, had set up things, and how quickly it was taken away It just, to me, puts into perspective some things in life that— the journey that some people go through that I have no idea what somebody else is going through. So I'm finding your story very fascinating. Being on this series about disability and lived experience, I want to start shifting towards that, but I don't want to get into that just yet. I want to hear a little bit more about what's life like for you today. You live in the Melbourne area, you grew up here, but you're a pretty busy person, aren't you?
Guest · 11:50
Yeah, fast, fast tracking all that. You know, before, you know, starting my career in Australia, I lived in my early 20s afterwards. I actually lived in Turkey. There, and it taught me a lot about, you know, living away from family and that duty aspect. But then, you know, I did—
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 12:13
how old were you when you, you went to Turkey?
Guest · 12:15
Uh, would have been my early 20s, so 21, and then I stayed there to 2026. So, like, um, especially then, very young, um, and, you know, having strict Cambodian parents growing up, but they weren't strict on me, so I had no boundaries going to Turkey and having to navigate and put new boundaries in Turkey. But In saying that, I learned a lot. Like, I think everything happens for a reason. I couldn't get a job in Australia, so I ended up getting an internship at the UN in Turkey when I was trying to figure out what my life would look like. I found love there as well. It just happened. And then, you know, Five Strack, after that Turkey experience, those lived experiences, they really projected kind of that international development piece and looking at how to improve where systems or where countries have failed us. And that's probably what brought me to my PhD, what I'm doing now. You know, I'm researching how employers can better support neurodivergent young adults. I myself, I think I have undiagnosed ADHD, and so I found that transition period quite tricky. But, um, I just really fascinated by this subject of, you know, like environments being more inclusive of people with different lived experience, especially if they are neurodivergent or might have a different cultural upbringing. But in saying that, in my professional work, I work at a cemetery, so I just think that's quite a unique environment. Like, I— like, it keeps me grounded, gives me a lot of perspective of like loss when someone important in your life loses weight. You know, outside the office, I, I see families coming for funerals, so it does give that kind of compass point on what really matters and what, what your day-to-day looks like. What, what are you— why are you doing the things you're doing today? And so I think that all kind of shapes what I really want out of my current life at the moment, is just really connected to like sharing those stories and just making few people feel heard and seen, whether it's in a work capacity or in the PhD. I think that's all kind of come together and shaped me where I'm at today.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 14:23
That's fascinating. A really interesting perspective. With that, so many different ways we could go in this conversation. So leave it up to you. I want you to guide the conversation.
Guest · 14:39
I guess in like everyday impacto, I'm also— I did mention like the duty to family. So my dad, and sister is diagnosed with spinocerebellar ataxia. So I actually am an NDS plan nominee, so I fully take care of my dad's disability as the nominee in terms of all of the, you know, paperwork, planning all of his therapy supports, and really understanding how he's progressively— and like putting the therapies in place to mitigate that. And all his support workers, if there's an issue, Alyssa is called. So And that's kind of where it's quite tricky because, you know, I'm aspiring to do things in my study and my work capacity, but then the other hat is like, I do, I feel like I do have an ongoing child, which is my adult children being my parents. Because unlike the other siblings, I'm not, I don't have children. So it's kind of because I'm female and I don't have children, they rely on me and all of the disability care supports. And so because English is not their first language, when someone is aging and who is an immigrant, they start to fall back onto their mother tongue. And so all of any appointments, if they go to the hospital, they are inherently more comfortable me being there to translate for them. So just taking time off work and studies to support them, it's just an extra thing I have to balance in my everyday. And that's kind of the piece of like, I never feel like my schedule is completely mine. I, you know, I see my husband who's Australian New Zealander, Anglo-Saxon, and he's Parents are self-sufficient, they book all their appointments, do all their banking, all of their payments themselves. I'm the one doing it for my parents, so it's just that extra kind of life admin that my partner would not understand that I have to go through that's different. So that's kind of the element of like when you don't have a parent that doesn't speak English, that's the extra life admin that's put on us.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 16:40
Let's unpack a little bit the disability that you talked about. Um, you named what it is. Um, what does it do? Talk a little bit about that disability and how does it affect the body?
Guest · 16:51
Yes, so, um, it's spinocerebellar ataxia. It's a genetic mutation in the cerebellum part of the brain that's responsible for body coordination and movement. So that's the thing where it controls everything. So if you're eating, drinking, going to the toilet, speaking, walking, that's thing that controls everything. So it starts to— once the onset of the disability hits, so that could be at any stage, and it's depending on what severity level you're diagnosed with. For— so for my dad, it wasn't too severe. It was in his 50s, and that was the first when we started to understand the diagnosis. But we actually had no idea, no idea that it was a genetic illness. Like, his dad had it, but we didn't make that link that, you know, the kids could have it. And, you know, his, his dad sister had died early from, but we didn't make that genetic connection. And in Cambodia, there was no kind of genetic testing or any kind of scientific revelation there. And so we all learned this in Australia. Um, and so knowing that, that's when we learned about it. And that same year when he was diagnosed, I would have been, yeah, quite like maybe late primary school, so it would have been grade 5, grade 6. Oh no, no, no, sorry, um, high school. High school. So, um, and I'd had watched, um, if you wanted to learn more about it, there's a Japanese drama series called 1000 Liters of Tears. Before I learned about that, my dad had it. I'd watched this drama series and cried profusely because I was so sad that this poor young girl who had fallen in love with this high school crush had this disease. And I was, you know, watching this drama fold out, and then a few months later I found out that's the same illness my dad has. So it's quite a It was very shocking.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 18:40
It sounds like a very powerful year for you, right then. Powerful short period of time.
Guest · 18:45
And the worst part was like, the thing that was really unsettling was that whoever has it, so if the parent has it, they have a 50% chance of passing it down to their child. And so, you just kind of have all of these things like, "Oh my God, am I going to have it?" And at that time, like a year later, my sisters had symptoms of her being really clumsy and Um, so we— she had that diagnosis not too long after Dad did, so it all just happened quite rapidly when I was in high school.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 19:14
Do you know what the diagnosis— like, what the process of being diagnosed is? How does somebody become diagnosed with this particular condition?
Guest · 19:23
Yes, so you, you definitely have to do a blood test, and that's through like a neurologist, like a brain doctor, pretty much. Um, so you go through that, you get referred to that specialist from your GP, and then you do that blood test, and then that's how you find out. And so the whole genetic testing is a very uncertain period because firstly, it's a choice to get tested. You don't have to get tested if you don't want to know. You don't have to get tested. So there's obviously all of these, like, you know, questions at play whether you want to find out or not. Because for me, when I was that young, I kind of was thinking, oh, you know, I want a boyfriend, I want to, you know, date. I don't know how I'd go, you know, I wouldn't be the most attractive bachelorette if I said, hey, by the way, I'm going to be in a wheelchair in a couple years' time, and your kids might have a 50% chance of having it. So I already felt like I wasn't a very attractive candidate. So that probably was really unsettling, just, you know, having to share that part of your family with someone and be quite vulnerable. And to this day, like, not everyone in our family who has a parent that has it wants to get tested.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 20:33
Okay, so that's a difference in even family members. You're saying the ones who— I think it is a very personal choice, but what about your choice? Are you comfortable sharing whether or not you were tested and the thought process that went into that?
Guest · 20:52
Yeah, I was— when I was going through high school, like, I was at a, like, not a good mental headspace. I was battling, you know, bulimia and like, I wasn't feeling very good about myself. So the thought of having something extra to deal with was just a bit overwhelming. It, like, I— all I wanted was to get into a really loving relationship. So that for me would have been a barrier. Like, I wouldn't have felt comfortable sharing that or getting tested until I found my— the love of my life who was willing to stand by me if I had it or not, and then had the courage to test it. And so for me, that— once I, you know, my, my, my first love, I, you know, got married to in Turkey, and that's when I decided to get tested. Tested because he didn't care if I had it or not. And so that gave me the courage to get tested. I was like, oh, I have someone willing to stand by me even if I have it. And you know, you always think worst case scenario that you do have it. So when you're taking the test for me, I just feel like, oh, I probably do have it. So at least I found someone that's willing to like stand by me, um, and that was my choice because then I could kind of make that choice if I wanted to screen it out if we had kids or not.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 22:02
I guess at that point in your life, once you had that partner that you could trust? And was it a fairly easy decision of whether or not you wanted to know?
Guest · 22:11
Yeah, I think so, because that was like, I don't know, I think just like as a woman and, you know, we're brought up like in Cambodian culture, like your mission is to get married and have children. Like, that's the mindset that you've really succeeded when you're married and you have kids. And so for mine, I was like, oh, I really need to find my life partner at the time, not knowing like if they're the wrong fit, that probably would be not an ideal scenario. Which brings me to my later point. But, um, but, but yeah, that definitely helped. And, um, and then, um, I got the phone call. So I was actually preparing for my wedding in Istanbul, Turkey, and I had my sister who had already been diagnosed with it. I had my older sister that doesn't have it, have my mom, and the doctor from Australia called and she was like, oh, like, I have some, you know, news to share. And then, you know, you have that heart sinking moment, just like this, whatever they say is going to change the rest of my life. Like, you're just like waiting for it. And it just feels all very slow motion because you're just like, you kind of— everything pauses and then you hear them, "I would like to share some good news." And then you're still kind of like, oh, denial. Is it? What's going on? And then she was like, "You do not have the gene. And so that was such a relief. It was— it's like, I generally thought I did have it and just have that— I was like, are you— I actually said, are you sure? Like, are you sure I don't have it? Like, are you sure that's my file? And they were like, no, no, you don't have it. Um, and it was just a relief. But I just remember turning to my mum and like, I thought everyone would be really happy for me. I was just really shaky. I was just like, 'Oh my God, like, I've just dodged a bullet in my life,' or this burden. And I just remember turning to my sister who has been diagnosed with it, and I just did not— wasn't ready for a reaction because she actually like just cried. And it was more about like, 'Oh, why me? Why do I have it?' Like, why? And like, just took me back to perspective of like, if you're the only one in your family does have it, just kind of feels really awful that the universe has put you in that boat and no one else has it. So I just took it back that moment. I— that, that kind of relief had turned into just that guilt feeling for your sibling that does have it. And so that moment, that, that really has stuck with me in terms of understanding what my sister might be going through if she is the only one out of us that has it.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 24:49
Yeah, what a complex, uh, you know, series of emotions. You described in your situation, wow, what relief, like what joy for you to experience that. But people that you're close to, people that you love, people that you're connected to, where it relates to the disability and your family. So you just heard the news, you, well, you heard the news while you're in Turkey, you felt that relief and you started to become growing into your own person, just maturity-wise here in your early, early 20s. With your— you had talked before, your sister, that she does have, she does have it. Um, during that time you were discovering yourself and she was having to discover herself with this disease, right? And at that point when you heard the news, what was her physical condition? Just what, real quick, what was her physical condition when you heard the news that you didn't have the gene?
Guest · 25:48
She needed like a mobility aid. So she wasn't, um, the wheelchair was just an optional choice just as a safety thing, but she didn't rely on the wheelchair. It was just if she felt tired and she needed just to rest, the wheelchair was there. But she was still able to walk but sometimes fall over, so she'd always need like one, I want a walking aid, or one of us to hold her. So she was still mobile and able to travel at that point, um, and so still life hadn't really, um, she wasn't fully immobile at that point, so still could do things. Um, she had lost her job though because she fell off a ladder and was made redundant. But she's quite— she didn't know her— didn't really push that work right in terms of payout or anything, just got made redundant because they didn't want to take on that, you know, disability risk in the workplace. Um, and so I think that's the connection. I feel like we kind of mirroring each other. Like, she lost access to financial payments when she stopped working. When I decided to marry someone that was a strict Muslim that didn't really want me to work, we kind of lost our financial freedom. Then both were reliant on our husbands at that point. And so that kind of is that kind of connection piece where I know what it's like when you can't make your own income and then going from, you know, you're able to earn your own money to being reliant on what what your husband is like. And mind you, not every husband and wife is the same. Sometimes they see their money as the same kind of joint bank account, but some couples do it separately and have it like, this is the money I make. Unfortunately, in her case, um, it was more like he made the money, so it's his money. And if, if he thinks that you can do things, um, he gets to make that call. Unfortunately, it's not her money. And so that was like having to ask permission to what we would spend was the similarity in those years for the both of us.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 27:46
So you almost, uh, as I'm observing it, there's almost this, uh, you know, you're mirrored there thinking you're the younger sister. You grew up, you know, as the younger sister, your older sister took care of you. Um, and then you went through this both period where you went through this very similar thing. You talked about the financial independence. And then after that, the roles kind of even reversed a little bit, right? So you're not just younger sister, but— Yeah.
Guest · 28:16
And giving you more context, like giving you more context, Dan, like before I got married and before her disability got worse, when she knew she had the disability, I would have been 16 to 18. So when I graduated, she made an intentional call that she was like, my disability is probably going to get worse. You've just graduated high school. And I remember she just did such a selfless act and she was like, oh, like you know, I would like you to help me travel. Like, I can't carry all my bags myself. I'll pay for your ticket. You've just finished. I'll pay for all your expenses. We'll go to, you know, Southeast Asia, go to Japan, Hong Kong. She paid for everything. That was all her money before she got it, like, really her disability. But that's the kind of generosity my sister had, very much looking after her siblings, her family. And it changed when the disability impacted. She wasn't as giving because she wasn't making that money anymore. So I remember that, and hold it close to my heart because it's like, it's really rare for like siblings to do that nowadays. You kind of just— this— you make your money, you do that yourself. You don't expect your sibling to pay that kind of generosity to you. It's very rare find, and she can't do that now. But I just remember being like forever grateful to it when she was able to do that. And so that has stuck with me and why that that love bank is very much full because I remember that when she was able to give, she did give.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 29:38
Yeah, what a gift. What a gift. Yeah, not a monetary gift. I mean, yeah, it costs money, but just a, you know, what a gift of generosity and time and then experience.
Guest · 29:47
And, um, and, and that's what I mean. Um, but I, I— that was probably the only— the last— first and last trip where we went together where she was mobile because It slowly— because I'd been in Turkey for 5 years and I came back, it had worsened. And by then she was in a wheelchair. And so before getting married, and that trip was really one of those kind of things that you have your golden memory moments, and that stayed with me because I got to travel with my sister when she could still walk. And she had all these dreams to go to, you know, Machu Picchu. Can't do that now because she can't walk and she— the disability's gotten worse, but It's kind of just take, take every day as it comes because you just don't know if you're in a car accident, if you know something, you get cancer, it's the same thing. Like tomorrow is not guaranteed. So kind of having that in the fam, that disability, for me it was just, I've always made, since I moved to Turkey, since I first traveled, every year I go to someplace new for that very reason, to keep that like dream alive for her and just to know, like, you know, 'Your life could really be tomorrow not what you think it is.' So that's been a really important goal for me.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 31:02
Absolutely. Um, that's really something, yeah, special that, yeah, you do as sisters. Um, and the way that you could give now that you give to her of just thinking of her and those experiences.
Guest · 31:12
And, uh, yeah, she did come to, um, I think like halfway when I was in Turkey, she'd actually stayed with me and my ex. And then when I was divorce, she stayed with me for like 2 to 3 months. So I did host her, but like, she wasn't able to walk. So, and Istanbul is just not disability friendly at all. Like, I was pushing her up on roads and cobblestone things, and it was just like my— the apartment that I lived in didn't even like— so everything was disability friendly, but at the front there was these 3 steps at the front of the apartment with no handrails, and it was just me trying to carry her into the building to get to the elevator. And I just remember always waiting until some young gentlemen and older gentlemen would walk past and ask, hey, sir, could you help me and my sister to go into the building? So I'd actually just wait until like 15 minutes till someone would walk past because I didn't want to transfer her by myself because it was dangerous in Istanbul.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 32:09
Right. I've been to Istanbul and I know the condition of the roads and the sidewalks or the footpaths.
Guest · 32:16
Pushing in the Grand Bazaar and like people were working slowly and then I didn't realize they were slow, so I'd run into their feet and it was just everyone just complaining. It was hilarious. So just what not to do in Istanbul. We did it, like pushing her on roads and people just like staring at us. Oh, these two Cambodian women randomly, you know, pushing a wheelchair on the road of Istanbul, right?
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 32:40
Yeah. What a scene that must have been. Yeah. And some of my world travels too, they've taken— I've been able to go to Cambodia And I learned there really, yeah, very, very quickly that disability and the person with a disability is seen drastically different, both the culture, but the way they're treated is drastically different than somebody without a disability. How aware of that are you? And how much do you think that affects your, just your family, the way you interact?
Guest · 33:15
Oh, like, um, because there's no, like, disability education or awareness. Like, things like what, ADHD, or even mental disability, or just disability in general, it's not very common knowledge in Cambodia. So like, the old kind of village mentality was like, oh, you must have did something in your previous life to have inherited this, like, disability. And even there was no government support. So it's kind of like, oh, I'm really doomed now. Like, my access to make money is like because of the disability, I can't go and work. So it's more seen as like, oh, it's a burden on the family. It's karma for some wrongdoing in the past because they can't explain. Like, in our case, it was genetic. So there was no good karma or goodwill that could have changed that outcome. It was just part of their DNA. But in Cambodia, it's changing now, my mom said. But back in her days, none of this was very discussed. She only really found out about it in Australia. And because when it got worse, like when they did go to Australia— uh, Cambodia, but it's not disability friendly, so wheelchair access and walking, it's just not— it's uneven ground. So they, when the disability got worse, they never really went back. Um, they just felt safer in Australia. But I've been saying that because the, this specific disability, you're kind of slurring, so your face muscles and everything start changing. So you physically start looking different. You don't look like your actual self anymore. So over time, I— like, with my sister, I could see it even in Australia, not even in Cambodia, but the treatment even in Australia changed. So, um, people would pat her thinking like she had an intellectual disability because she couldn't speak clearly. So it's just the— this is a fully, you know, a person that was able-bodied her whole life, and suddenly they're treating her like she has been born with an intellectual disability. So that kind of awareness judgment profile is just very interesting, and that would have probably been worse in Cambodia without that education.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 35:16
Sure, you know, I'm sure my experience there— I was talking to somebody that, um, and you and I had talked about this a little bit off camera, uh, that people who became disabled during the war due to landmines or just the injuries from the— primarily from the war, but how quickly their life would change because of that injury or because they had a disability. And I remember one person that, you know, telling me that it wasn't just that they had a disability and so they couldn't work. So on one side, they were not able to be productive and contribute, which affected the society in the society's eyes. And then on the other hand, then they were still an extra body to feed. They're an extra, you know, an extra mouth to feed. They're still consuming resources. And so for two reasons, they were—
Guest · 36:07
Yeah, you needed to be well off. Yeah. To be able to live with a disability. My mom said that they would have struggled, like, think just from an access, it would have been hard. But because if they did stay, my grandpa did have a lot of land, so they might have been able to get carers. But that would have all— because they're at a good place. If they were in poverty, you would just probably be living off the streets and having to rely on like international aid if you could access it and get to access it.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 36:33
Exactly right. So yeah, look at today's world, there's— it's just much different. I still think there's a long, long way to go for the full inclusion of people with disability, um, various disabilities.
Guest · 36:47
That's probably why we're so grateful, like, Mom and Dad like even if they have a, you know, they are on the NDIS, but any service, like even if they don't think it's good, they're just so appreciative because they, they watch YouTube videos of right now, live videos of what people with disability in Cambodia go through because there's this online series they watch to see how things are going in the villages. And they just are like, thank God we're not those, that's not us because we have NDIS support here. So if we can't make money or say, you know, we're not wealthy like in Australia, Australia, the government taxpayers' money do support those at most vulnerable. Um, and so that connection is always very strong because every day they watch those YouTube series for us growing up. So it was an ongoing daily education base, like, think, like, be very grateful you live in Australia. You have free education, like, health, healthcare, and, you know, Medicare, and you can get all these things because in Cambodia no one's going to help you there.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 37:51
Right.
Guest · 37:52
I remember, because Cambodian culture is very different to Australian, so where it kind of clashed for us, where we weren't very fond of it, but we appreciate the funding. But I think with support workers, normally in a village where they were brought up, they're, you know, bathing and going to the toilet, it's very personal, very intimate things. And so when the disability got worse and they weren't able to go to the toilet themselves, my dad felt comfortable for someone in the family to do it. And this is when he's just still in his ego, still wanting that kind of, I still want that sense of, you know, confidence and personal freedom. He just really wanted just like one of the children to be a support worker. And my sister was, you know, having a young child at the time. She wasn't working, but she was happy to be a support worker just to do that for my dad. But she wasn't allowed to because of the familial lines, because in— I think previously some children had done it but taken advantage of their parents who had disability, so it was not allowed under the NDIS kind of guidelines, and we kind of tried to go through it like, you know, in the village mentality. Only family come into the home, they don't feel comfortable with strangers. So that was really tough for them to— when the disability got worse, they kind of try to like live that out until it was really bad, and then they needed just strangers come into them. But the concept, because they don't have friends, it's all just family that they talk to, it's very hard for them to invite people that weren't family into the home.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 39:17
In my conversations that I've had, uh, yeah, recently with people with disability, those things become a very real part of life, the everyday component that many of us don't think about. But just having somebody else, maybe a complete stranger, coming in to do things that are very personal, very, uh, private. And, um, yeah, I don't think it's easy.
Guest · 39:40
It's a lot of trust, a lot of trust, because it's like, obviously they're not going to steal anything, but It's just they're not family. So, and then like, you know, we had incidents where the support worker just wasn't mindful. Instead of putting, you know, toothpaste on the toothbrush, it was Bepanthen, which is this, you know, antiseptic cream, and he choked for like 3 hours. It's those things where a family member who's very invested, you know, some might not be, but in our family we take looking after our parents very seriously. So things like that wouldn't happen if one of us was doing it.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 40:12
Okay. Yeah. I mean, you don't know really, right? You have that constant feeling of who is it going to be? Who is the support worker? Do they know? Because it's typically not the same one, right?
Guest · 40:25
Yeah. If they're not well and they have to look after their ill child, then you have to back up one. But the backup ones, I think mum reached a stage where they're like, we don't want to back up one after that experience. But when the disability is getting worse, you kind of have no other option if your kids are working. Like, we're working, we have our own things. Those strangers then become your second family, and they've changed that. They've shifted their focus towards that after living and the disability getting worse. But if they didn't have the disability, I don't think they would have opened their homes to, like, friends, like, that weren't family to their house.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 41:04
With your experience, so now you talked about your dad, you have your sister that have this, and it's a disease that gets progressively worse, right? How does that affect your, let's talk about your day-to-day life, whether you're with them or you're not with them, what kind of things do you have to think about and what kind of things are going through your mind? What kind of things are constantly maybe nagging at you, needing your attention?
Guest · 41:29
I guess like we've already mentioned with my parents is that life admin that can get really, but I don't have It's very strange with my mom and dad because they, like, my first language is English and their first language is Cambodian. It almost feels like I'm not as close to them because of the language barrier. So I'm actually more close to my sisters. I see them more as like how you would see your parents, Dan. That's kind of my relationship with my sisters because of the language is the same. And so like, I don't feel as guilty not hanging out with my mom and dad as much because they don't understand what I'm saying half the time anyways because I speak too fast. Like, you know, my nickname in Cambodian culture is Big Mouth because they think I speak too much and too quickly. Um, but in saying that, where the guilt comes from is actually from like my sister who's done all these things. Because growing up, she was like my second mom. So, you know, she'd take me to the cinemas, she'd, you know, take me to concerts, um, take me to hang out with her church friends. She was a Christian, and I went to Christian like weekend schools because she took me there to hang out with her friends. And all these things, I remember looking up to her. And so all the guilt comes from all the good things she's done for my upbringing. And seeing her in that vulnerable state, it's kind of— the shift has changed. So now to have life going on every day, that guilt is always there. But like, my other sister doesn't feel as guilty because she has 5 kids, so she can just be like, I have 5 kids, I have too much on my plate. My mom can say, I have my dad, like, my dad to look after, but I don't have children. So I think that guilt is like, oh, what do I have? Oh, Alyssa has a PhD baby now. So that's kind of my— like, it doesn't— you can't feel too guilty if you're so already busy consumed doing something like a PhD. Um, and so that— I think struggling, like, being okay with, like, choosing to be a bit selfish in the week just to maintain your energy is the thing that I struggle with, balancing that Cambodian mentality of duty to your family. That's something that my husband is amazing at. He will— can see his family the whole— he cannot see his family the whole year and he would be fine, whereas I'd be like, I'm a failed child, like, they're going— I'm to hell because I haven't checked in on my family. Whereas I just am amazed that he has no guilt factor. And I was like, it must be a very, like, a real thing that we've been raised just to really think about that all the time.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 43:56
I think it is a very, uh, well, probably a little bit generational, but also a very, um, societal, um, thing as well, how much obligation that you have to your family, for good or for bad. You have this experience of— and tell me the name of the disease again.
Guest · 44:19
Spinocerebellar ataxia. It's quite a mouthful. It's like, I remember the cerebellum part because it says cerebella, but then spino, the spine. I don't know why, not even related to the spine. Um, spinocerebellar, and then ataxia at the end.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 44:35
That's such a mouthful. I wrote down, but then I couldn't handle my handwriting.
Guest · 44:39
It's all that motor neuron, kind of how people with motor neuron disease, like, their motor skills just get really progressively getting worse. It's kind of similar to that, but just feeling stuck in your body and you wanting it to move left, but it's like choosing to go backwards, right? So you can't really— like, my sister describes it as having, like, this energy, like it pulls you, like something's controlling and like pushing you here and you can't stop it moving your body.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 45:08
Uh, that would be, um, a certainly different experience than the—
Guest · 45:14
oh, it's, um, it's very—
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 45:16
experience in my own body.
Guest · 45:17
It's very scary. Um, like, like I still get emotional talking about this bit recently. Um, like she— I didn't think it it. Like, I guess when you're going through and you're used to it and you don't know when things get worse in their body, you just think they'll do this. So normally, you know, when I push her going forward, I'm out of a door, she'd lean back and like her energy will go backwards. But one time, like, I pushed her and she instead of going backwards, she wasn't concentrating, and so her body went forward and I pushed out of the wheelchair. And this was outside in a concrete place and she face-planted. Because of the disability, their immediate reaction is not to put their hands up, they just face-plant. And she bashed her face into the concrete under my care and looked really concussed. Blood was on me going everywhere, and that was really scary because it's like I already feel so guilty and bad, and then like, you know, family members were blaming me that it was my fault. It's just this whole sense of like, you just don't know how bad this disability is until things like that happen. Then you're like, we probably should have had a seatbelt going over her in the wheelchair so if her body does move. But we don't think like that until it happens. Sure. And then, you know, the— and it's quite traumatic. Like, the ambulance was called. They're like— I was just stressing out. I was like, you know, she doesn't have ambulance cover. I, I have to pay for that, do you know what I mean? Because it's like my fault, right?
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 46:42
And this is for something as simple as trying to get her through the doorway.
Guest · 46:45
Yeah. And it was never an issue, and that was that first time it was an issue. So it's like, like the disability every day could change drastically, like how a newborn just changes in that first year. That disability each year just looks different, like a different progression. So you just don't you know, like how quick it progresses. So you got to be in front of it. Just if it gets worse, just let's put all these extra protections in place.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 47:09
With all those things that you've described, the, the challenges, the unknowns, the different way of life, the guilt, um, you know, the obligation, those are pretty heavy loads for anybody to carry. With a, with a disability specifically related to the disability, is there any either silver lining or is there anything that you've learned through the disability that you think is valuable?
Guest · 47:32
Look, I'm not gonna lie, I, I'm still figuring that out, Dad. That, that piece, um, I almost think like, why do I feel so much guilt? And try to like distract myself. But I generally think guilt is not necessarily maybe a bad thing. It might be another form of love in a very twisted way. Um, but my, my silver lining is It does. I generally, coming out from— I feel very proud of my sister and my sister for having the disability and being able to live out her day every day. I personally, sometimes it's that silver lining of like, I don't know how she does it because if I were in her shoes, you know, communication is really big for me and not being able to speak and no one talk to me anymore because they're scared they might not understand me, that would be completely horrifying to think of, but she just takes it like a champ. She is able— when, you know, we did do something for her 40th birthday, um, just seeing her smile. And, you know, she does say like, oh, these, these moments when we do rally around her and put her— our day aside to come together, maybe that one day in the year, she— it means the world to her. So it's just like those small acts of kindness or love when life does get too busy, you just kind of pull it back doing like, that's really made you know, her day, like people you love, seeing them, like they don't remember that disability for the day. They just are in that moment, joyous, surrounded by love. And that's the kind of thing that love for them pushes them through, and they hold on to that because she still now, like after that birthday gathering, she doesn't get that very often, but that carries her through for the next coming weeks, and she gets a lot of buzz out of it. And so that that goes a long way. And just sometimes we are too busy to make time for things like that.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 49:29
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Based on what you'd said and hearing you talk about it, the disabilities, they can be just something that's really, really like, I don't know, it's really powerful. It could be powerful, challenging. Probably not easy. And my question wasn't based on, well, are you happy, are you glad the disability— that somebody has a disability? It's not really my question. But in the reality that people do have disability, some of the things that it does shine a light on— you talk about rallying around your family, rallying around your sister, taking those moments to intentionally rally around somebody that you care for. It's really, really powerful.
Guest · 50:18
It goes a long way because you kind of put it in her shoes. Normally, if she goes to a gathering, I invite everyone to put that mentality. It's like she's at a party. They don't know that she actually wants to be talked to, but they don't understand. So they think it's too hard to just even say, "Hi, how's your day going? Do you want anything?" And she just sits there in the corner of the party because that that not knowing, or I invite people just to have the courage to, you know, just be kind if you see someone at a party that might not look like, you know, they're integrated, just to offer that kind of warm reception to them and welcome them in because that goes a long way in their world.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 51:05
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And what about in your world? When you're with your sister. What are some things that people can do that, I guess, open up that channel of love or open up that, you know, that human connection with somebody like your sister who may not be able to communicate like she once was able to, or maybe it is challenging to communicate sometimes, but what can people do specifically in your situation?
Guest · 51:37
I think I think one thing that she has always said, and I always— that surprises me, is that out of everyone, she is the most comfortable with me. Not from a, like, more from a communication point of view, because I'm not afraid to just say things. And if I don't understand it, I'll make a joke out of it. So I was like, oh, um, you're so excited again, and you're like squealing because you're so happy. Like, ah, are you trying to like this song and she'll laugh. So it's just trying to distract her from what it is. But sometimes it is very tiring to repeat themselves. So what I do is my thing, just to— sometimes if I don't understand her, I won't try to understand. I'll just kind of go along with it and then kind of re-summarize what I think she was meaning. And most of the time she appreciates that I've gone to that extra effort of trying to just relay instead of making her repeat it 5 times. Captured the essence. Oh, like, oh, so you're saying, you know, your daughter Nikki went to school and then, you know, had a really good time, and then she'd be like, yeah, and nod. It's easier for them to nod. But the thing is, like, not being brave in communication, brave communication, just being more extroverted for these, for when they have a communication breakdown from the disability, that goes a long way because they're shielded by that extrovertedness or like because you're so friendly, that's kind of used as their support in a way.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 53:11
What a way to connect with your sister and to spend that time learning her style of what she needs.
Guest · 53:21
She says it's the gift of the gab, apparently, but I just think it's just a loving protection thing.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 53:27
Have you ever been to Ireland and kissed the Blarney Stone? Lore has it if you kiss the Barney Stone, then you have the gift of the gab.
Guest · 53:36
I think that she did wish for that one. So maybe I have to take you to Ireland then, Dan, and get my sister to kiss the thing, because that's one of her wishes is like, if the genie gave her 3 wishes, I would walk, I'd have the gift of the gab, and I like, yeah, could go to Machu Picchu.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 53:51
There we go. Maybe there'll be a way with accessible travel in the near future.
Guest · 53:56
Yeah, we'll have to go through all the plane safety regulations and go through the legal pathway for it to extend the width of the, the aisles. But we'll slowly get there in due course and, you know, change the weight limitations of all of the devices they can bring on board.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 54:12
Yeah, luckily there's advocates out there that are working on just those types of things. We're not in this alone. So, uh, well, this is— this has been absolutely a fantastic conversation. All right, so is there anything that we missed, or is there a rabbit hole that we didn't go down that you wanted to go down still?
Guest · 54:36
Um, I guess in terms of like linking it back to why it matters, I guess one thing that I learned, you know, being a Cambodian Australian woman, um, being an NDS Plan nominee and everything, like, yes you know, whatever we inherit from our culture, from our parents, from our sisters, from our family, friends, all these things that we inherit. And, um, like, kind of look at what has my family done, or maybe the change the course of things. What are the gaps? I kind of see it like research. The— my supervisors are always like, look at the research, look at the history, what are the gaps, and what would you do differently and contribute in your research? And I just invite people— I think for me Knowing how my family is, like what my mom, what my sister, what my dad did, like what would I do differently? And if they were in my position, what would they want me to do differently? And so I just kind of like, what's that kind of what I've been leaning into. Yes, my sister can't walk. I can walk. What can I do while I can walk? Or, you know, my mom is stuck in a really— she's not happy being a carer and her marriage is not very happy. Like, what do I want from my marriage with my husband? Just like moving towards like what would I do differently so I can change that kind of pattern of not just being stuck in something that I'm not appreciative of. And so that's kind of linking it to just thinking about that element.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 56:05
Yeah. Well, you definitely have a reflective outlook on life. I know you spend a lot of time researching, but reflecting But then when you have the gift of the gab, that reflection is helpful so that, you know, intelligent things are coming out of your mouth or good ideas are coming out.
Guest · 56:26
Hopefully with editor and everything like that, everything can just be sharpened and word vomit can be like, you know, flattened out as well.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 56:35
Great. Eva, who's likely going to edit this, will make note. Eva, make note of— do your magic with the word vomit.
Guest · 56:46
Yes.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 56:46
Thanks, Dad. That's really such, such great ideas. Um, really, really, uh, just a phenomenal— you have a phenomenal story. Um, I know I said that before, but, uh, just, yeah, the way that you share it, the way that you live life, um, you're generous with the, you know, sharing it with others. Um, yeah, so your generosity is, uh, Yeah, huge.
Guest · 57:12
And it's quite a turn of events because how we met, Dan, was I was the one interviewing you first, and that's how we met as part of my research.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 57:23
That's right. I had just— for a little context, I had just moved to Melbourne. My wife and I had just moved down here. And yeah, let's say you had reached out for some research, and I don't even remember how I got paired with you. You reached out to my organization, Jigsaw, And I don't remember if I drew the short straw or I naively said, oh yeah, I'll talk to, I'll talk to Alice. I don't remember how, I don't remember how the conversation started.
Guest · 57:49
Very important research. You've contributed to very important research, Dad. Okay. It's all connected to this.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 57:54
Yes. I know that now looking back on it. And once you came in, because you came into, you know, you came in and got introduced to Jigsaw and everything. And we had a conversation about the the research that you were doing and the difference you were trying to make. And, yeah, we had a— right away, I felt that we connected on the— just sharing some really good ideas. And I think that you just have a really, really good grasp on what's important, on what you want, and how to make a positive impact on others. So you had that a couple years ago when we first met, and then our interactions and And, you know, since then, who knows where, you know, these conversations lead. But I just appreciate you sharing that. Yeah, your trust in me and with some of your research. But really, I just really appreciate what you're doing for a lot of people in need. I really, really appreciate that.
Guest · 58:54
Thanks for having me, Dad.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 58:56
Yeah, absolutely. I look forward to future conversations. And with that, we'll let you go and have the rest of your day back to do PhD work or time with your husband or whatever you want to do. You don't have to put up with this conversation anymore.
Guest · 59:14
It was lovely. It's always lovely chatting to you.
Daniel Dougherty (Host) · 59:20
Thank you for listening to this episode of Golden Threads. We hope this story of resilience resonated with you in some way. To make this podcast available to more listeners, please leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts and hit follow or subscribe. You can also visit kintsugiheroes.com.au to make a tax-deductible donation to help us share future stories of strength and hope. Remember, we're all in this together.
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