Ochan Aba · 49 min
A South Sudanese-Ugandan content creator reveals how racial profiling, crushing loneliness, and the courage to speak honestly on camera transformed his silence into a viral movement for migrant belonging.
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Ochan Aba came to Australia as an extrovert, a storyteller by nature. Within months of arriving, he learned to stay quiet. The gap between what he imagined Australia would be, friendly, multicultural, welcoming, and what he actually found there forced him into silence. Kids told him to go back to his country. Coworkers made offensive comments about Black people, then called them jokes when he objected. In sports coaching, he had to earn extra qualifications just to be believed as credible, something his peers never had to do. Friends only wanted to know him when he was winning. By his late teens, after being stopped and searched by police while in school uniform, he began carrying his ID everywhere, conditioning himself to expect harassment every time he left the house.
For years, Ochan carried these experiences alone, buried under the weight of choosing which battles to fight and which slurs to laugh off. Then he started making videos. What began as short comedy sketches became raw, honest reflections on loneliness, racism, and what it means to belong when you are constantly reminded you do not. His videos went viral because they named things many migrants had never heard spoken aloud. Through making content, Ochan discovered something unexpected: vulnerability was not weakness. Speaking the unspeakable freed him to become confident in ways he thought were lost.
He now understands belonging differently. He carries pieces of Ethiopia, Kenya, South Sudan, and Australia within him. Some days he belongs in Melbourne completely. Other days he belongs nowhere. But it is those fractured pieces, he says, that make him whole. His message to newly arrived migrants is direct: find your people where you are. Seek out others who have lived displacement and loss, because they understand in ways Australians cannot. And to everyone else: check on your people. A two-minute call, a quick message, might reach someone who feels entirely alone.
“I feel like it's almost like therapy in a way, you know, because by sharing it and having people connect with your experience, it's a way of yourself processing what you've been through for so many years and stayed silent.”
“I belong everywhere and nowhere at the same time.”
“loneliness and mental health is real and people need to check on on their friends, family members or people they know”
The hero, today
Ochan learned through making videos that vulnerability was not weakness, and that sharing his unspoken experiences freed him to become confident in public in ways he had stopped believing were possible. When people say offensive things and gaslight you afterward by calling it a joke, you are not overreacting; they are using manipulation to avoid accountability. Ochan was conditioned by a single traumatic police stop at sixteen to check for his ID every time he leaves the house, showing how one experience of racial profiling can shape a person's behaviour for years. Other migrants understood Ochan's experience of displacement and loneliness far better than Australian friends could, because they had lived the same loss of the communal, drop-by-your-house way of life he had known. Ochan belongs in Australia some days and not others, depending on where he is and who surrounds him, because belonging is not about the place itself but about the people and connection he has built there. A quick message to someone you think of costs nothing and can be the thing that reaches someone who feels completely alone.
Yes. Ochan Aba is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Ochan learned through making videos that vulnerability was not weakness, and that sharing his unspoken experiences freed him to become confident in public in ways he had stopped believing were possible.
When people say offensive things and gaslight you afterward by calling it a joke, you are not overreacting; they are using manipulation to avoid accountability.
Ochan was conditioned by a single traumatic police stop at sixteen to check for his ID every time he leaves the house, showing how one experience of racial profiling can shape a person's behaviour for years.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 00:16
Hello and welcome to From There to Here, the podcast where we talk about what it's like to live a life far from home and everything it involves. I'm your host Emma Bellamy, and today my guest is Ochan Abba. Ochan is a content creator who's turned his experience as a migrant into videos that went viral on Instagram, and that's because they express with rare honesty and vulnerability how difficult this journey can be in Australia. In our conversation, Bochan opens up about the gap between his expectations and the reality when he arrived here, the loneliness of being othered and the racial profiling that conditioned him to never leave his house, for instance, without an ID. He shares how making content became a form of therapy, so to speak, how he learned confidence through vulnerability and why he believes He belongs everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Ochan, Abba, welcome to the podcast From There to Here. You know, I've been watching your content on Instagram for a while now, and there are So many topics that you talk about that I think really align with this podcast. So yeah, just before we start the conversation, I wonder what led you to start doing this and find the strength to, you know, be so authentically yourself on this platform, because it takes a lot of courage, I think.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 02:04
So this all comes down to before I moved to Australia. So before I moved to Australia, I was like an extrovert person. Yeah, so I was never an introvert, right? And when I moved here, I think going through isolation and like try to navigate myself through this society made me learn how to be introvert, if I could say that. And then recently, I think like this year or last year, start of last year, I was like, you know what, maybe I need to be myself. I need to stop putting myself in a shell and actually just be myself, be expressive, because I feel like I'm an expressive kind of person. So I decided, you know what, I'll start just doing content, just be expressive.
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Other migrants understood Ochan's experience of displacement and loneliness far better than Australian friends could, because they had lived the same loss of the communal, drop-by-your-house way of life he had known.
This conversation includes from extrovert to shell, the gap between expectation and arrival, kids telling him to go back, laughing it off to survive, having to prove more than others and friends only when useful.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 02:53
Wow. Yeah. And it's funny what you say about shifting a trait of personality from being an extrovert to being an introvert, because I think that arriving in another country makes you very isolated. And so this extroverted part of your personality couldn't really show up in the same way it did before.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 03:16
Yeah, 100%. Because like, if I can remember since I was a kid, I've been always a storyteller. I always enjoy telling stories. So me putting myself in an introvert position. It made it so hard for me to be expressive. So then I decided, you know what, maybe, maybe all the experience that I went through, maybe I just talk about it.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 03:42
How did you feel when you first put the content out there? Because for people who don't know the platform yet, you talk about your experience facing the camera, you know, and things that are very deep. So how did that make you feel when you first put something so deep for the public to see?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 04:02
So last year, before my loneliness video went viral, I was putting out like comedy. I'll probably say comedy. I would— it was like little skits, 6 seconds, 12 seconds, and it didn't really, it didn't really do anything for me until I put out the video about loneliness. I don't know how I was feeling at the time. I think I was remembering like, what was I going through when I first moved to Australia? Just thinking about I've been living in Australia for a while, and there's experiences that I went through that I have never shared with anybody. I was like, okay, I'm gonna shoot it and then post it and see what happened. And when the video blew up, I think what made me overwhelmed was people around me start messaging me thinking that I was going through difficult times, but I'm like, I'm sharing the experiences that I went through. I mean, there's times that I still feel like I'm still in that situation, and then there's, there's times I'm like, okay, I do have friends, I do have family around me, and I can talk to them, and you know, they're good people. But it's some of the experience that I never shared with anybody, so I was like, I'll just put it out there and see.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 05:19
I feel like it's almost like therapy in a way, you know, because By sharing it and having people connect with your experience, it's a way of yourself processing what you've been through for so many years and stayed silent.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 05:34
Yeah. And I think the amazing thing that I learned this year is I learned so many things about myself as well as I was shooting the videos. So it's like every single time I shoot a video, like, oh, I didn't know that about me. I didn't know that about me. So it's like now I'm learning about myself a lot more and I'm like, I think I'm this super confident guy now.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 05:58
Tell me about the last thing you learned about yourself through the videos. I'm curious.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 06:05
What did I learn? I think it's just the confidence of being free. Like, I can be in a public setting now and just talk and I can speak however I feel, and you know, I can literally just be myself. But if you were to tell me to do that 2 years ago, I don't think I even leave the house 2 years ago. I used to think like, just to go to supermarket, I feel like used to take a lot of energy to just go to supermarket because I'm like, oh, there's gonna be a lot of people around, I don't want people staring at me, I don't want people looking at me. That was a lot. Wow.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 06:45
Okay. Yeah. So that's amazing that you've been able to acquire more confidence. So there is one thing that I want to start the conversation with. There was a post where you talked about the disillusion that you felt after migrating to Australia. There has been a gap between your expectations of how life in Australia was going to be like and the reality that you've experienced as a migrant. So can you share with us how you imagined your life would change in Australia, what you were hoping for when you decided to leave your homeland?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 07:25
I thought from videos that I saw before coming to Australia, it was like this super friendly country. People will talk to anybody on the street. I mean, when I saw the video, I was like, oh, so it just feels like home, right? So I'm just moving from one place to another place. That feels like home, but it has more job opportunities, right? But then once you come here, then you start realizing like, oh, everything is different. It's not actually what we saw on TV, so it's different.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 07:57
Tell me more about that.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 08:00
How would I put it down? I would say there's people that are friendly and then there's people that are not friendly. And one thing that I realized in here is in terms of a lot of things, there's still segregation. My expectation was like, oh, everybody's going to get along because it's multicultural society. But then I feel like the more you're out of the city, the more you start to realize it's nothing to do with multicultural.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 08:27
What you're talking about, is it linked to racism? Experiences of racism?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 08:35
Yeah, racism, discrimination, all of that. Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 08:40
So tell me a bit more about, you know, how racism has shown up for you, because I know that sometimes it doesn't really show up in a very obvious way. This happens and it, you know, happens at the moment in Melbourne, you know, with all these anti-immigration protests, but also it happens in very subtle ways, in little things that people may not really understand. So perhaps Give us an overview of how it has been like for you. What made you realize that you were actually encountering racism?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 09:14
I would say the first time was in school. Some kids will tell you to go back to your country. You know, some kids will tell you that. I think that was my first time experiencing that because, I mean, coming from Africa, it's like you don't go through that. And here it's like different where somebody goes, oh, you know, you don't look like one of us, you need to go back to where you come from. Or like the big one, I feel like the big one was when they put World Vision photos, right? They'll put these African kids and then kids will go like, oh, that's your brother, you know, they'll say that. So I feel like That's, yeah, that's experiencing that in high school. And then like workplaces where like somebody will go, oh, you know, all Black people are lazy, or all Black people are like this, or all Black people are criminals. You know, you hear somebody saying that.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 10:14
To your face? Yeah.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 10:17
Whoa.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 10:18
Really?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 10:19
Yeah, I know. It's crazy.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 10:21
And how do you react in a situation like this?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 10:24
What I learned is you, you have to choose your battles. It's like you can't just, not everything you have to fight for. Some things is like, you know, you have to just let it go, which you laugh it off and you just keep going with your day.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 10:39
And there is something about having to laugh about it just so that you don't create waves that must be very frustrating.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 10:50
It is, it is. The first few times you encounter it, it is super hard. But then, you know, I feel like the more you go through it, then you're like, okay, I know what to deal with, I know how to deal with it now. Like, do I argue with the person or do I just let it go? Because I feel like most of these people already have a fixated mindset on what they're saying. So it's like whatever it is that you say will not change how they perceive you.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 11:20
Yeah, but at the same time, if I can be the devil's advocate, to not say anything makes it easier for them to continue doing it, you know? And I wonder whether— yeah, I'm torn because at the same time, it shouldn't be your job to have to educate them about why this is hurtful constantly. But at the same time, if we don't stand up against it, then it continues to go on.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 11:49
The thing is, let's just say there's other coworkers around us, you know, they'll probably hear it. I used to think like, oh, maybe the coworkers will say something about it, but then it's like everybody just laugh it off and then it's supposed to just, you know, die off. Like, that's it.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 12:07
They don't think it's offensive. I think that's probably the problem.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 12:10
If you do say, "Ah, that's not right," this and that, they will just tell you it's a joke. It's supposed to be a joke. That's what they'll tell you. And I feel like that's where the gaslighting and manipulation comes in, where like they will say something very offensive, then they'll try to gaslight you for thinking how you actually take it. So then how do you fight that? And maybe it would be like 3 on 1. Where 3 of them will go like, nah, it's just supposed to be a joke. Don't take it too serious.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 12:41
And so I imagine that, you know, with repeated experiences like that over the years in school, in the workforce, it made you try to suppress some parts of your identity that made you different to others. Like, I know that a lot of code switching can happen when you're constantly reminded of your difference, then you try to minimize the differences so that you feel like you can belong more or blend in. Is it something that you've experienced?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 13:13
What I experienced is, because look, so for example, I mean, um, I do a lot of sports, right? So within the sports sector, you go through these things a lot. And because I train people, it's like people don't believe you're supposed to be a coach. Let's just say you're a really good, um, player, right? But then they think you being Black, you're just supposed to be just a player, you can't teach. So then for you to prove yourself that you can teach, it's like you have to have more qualification than other people that are not like you, just to prove that you have the knowledge.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 13:54
Mm.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 13:55
Yeah. Wow.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 13:56
So you feel like you have to prove your qualifications, your credibility even more so that people consider you as equal?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 14:06
Yeah. 100%.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 14:10
That's really tough. Tell me more about the loneliness and the sense of social isolation that you've experienced over the years as a result of that.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 14:19
When I first moved to Australia, it's like it was difficult to make friends because I was different. And the only time that I felt like I became part of the group, it was when I was better than everybody in sports, you know? So then everybody want to be my friend. But before that, nobody really wanted to talk to you, want to hang out with you until you start beating them in sports. Then they go, oh, maybe we can be friends. And that leads to, you know, once, once the sport finishes, then you are now, you are in your own shell because we have nothing else in common to talk about apart from sports. So we can't really talk about anything else outside sports. So then how is these people really my friend? That's how I used to think. If we're not talking about soccer, we're not talking about basketball, we're not talking about running. Like, what is there for us to talk about?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 15:21
I see two things in what you say. The first one is when they come to you as a result of your performance in sport, is it really about them wanting to connect with you or is it because of something that they want to gain from you because you are good at sport? So you feel a bit used in that sense.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 15:40
Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 15:41
And then there is the, perhaps the lack of curiosity, I would imagine, because if you say that you have nothing to talk about, I imagine that there are plenty of things that they could be talking about with you, but I feel like, do you feel it comes from a lack of curiosity on their end?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 15:58
I don't know. I never really thought about it like that. And, um, from the first one, what you said is, yes, sometimes It feels like they're using you for your abilities because you're better than everybody and you being in their team makes them better. I mean, makes them have a better team, not maybe better individuals, but you have a better team. And once the game finishes, it's like, all right, we're done with him. That's it. And even if you sit around with them and have a conversation, to the second one that you said, you know, lack of curiosity. It's like we can sit down and talk about things, but then they don't think you are intelligent enough to comprehend such conversations.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 16:45
Give me an example, perhaps, you know, to make it very concrete.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 16:49
Like, for example, if we were to sit and talk about history, or we could talk about anything else, they would not want to get in depth of trying to understand what it is. What you trying to say, right? And the only time you would engage in a conversation with them is if something relate to violence, relate to sports. Literally, that's the only two things. So we could talk about American politics, about how Donald Trump is not the best president, or we could talk about which basketball team is the best team, but then we don't really have a meaningful conversation where we actually talking to get to know each other as individuals. Hmm.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 17:32
And that's, I think, something that is very hard for many migrants here is the casualness of the relationships. The fact that it's very hard for it to become deep. It requires a lot of patience, a lot of efforts to really build deep relationships where you really truly feel heard. And I don't know whether it's like part of the culture in the sense that there is a reluctance to share emotional struggles. So you can keep the conversation very light, but then you really don't get a sense of what is really going on in their lives. Do you feel that there is an element of that?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 18:16
The funny thing is we could have conversations that actually would make me and the person understand each other much better. I mean, I don't need to know too much about your family, but I just need to know enough, like, in terms of conversation. Like, are we engaging in the right conversation? Not just us talking about sports, because once the sport finishes, then what? I know nothing about you, but I know which team you like. That's about it.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 18:45
I think that the way relationships are built here is around activities. You know, sport is one of them. It's a really good way to make friends. But in order to really get into the deep relationship, it is a lot harder for this to happen. And you need to have seen and met the person multiple times, sometimes years before they open up to you. At least it has been my experience. I feel that I've been always super surprised of how long it takes for someone to really express a personal element of their lives. And for years I've had conversations with them and, you know, I really don't know who they are. And in France, it's a lot more common to talk about your childhood, what you've been through, like things that are really telling a lot about the person you are today. There isn't this emotional filter, you know, it's pretty in your face, which can be, you know, very challenging for people from cultures like Australia when they come to France because it sounds very like, pff. But yeah, do you think that there is a difference back home versus Australia in the way people connect?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 20:02
I would say so. I would say for us it's more communal-based. So it's like completely different from that to you just being here by yourself. Like, it's hard. Like, for example, you know, when the older African people come to Australia, because they've been living in a different way for like years, them coming to Australia to this new way of living, it just becomes so difficult, and a lot of them fall into depression. And stress very easily because everything else is so different now.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 20:39
What do you mean?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 20:40
Like, for example, you can't just turn up to somebody's house here, which back home, like, I don't have to call you, I can just turn up to your house, you know. So that's something that a lot of older African people struggle with in Australia. I mean, when you're younger, it's easier to integrate into this society, but then when you're older and you're already fixated in a way that you already live, then it becomes so difficult.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 21:06
I feel that here independence, self-reliance, privacy is more important perhaps than, you know, this let's connect with each other kind of thing. But I think the primacy is really about independence, self-reliance, and privacy. So yeah, I think it leads a lot of people to think that they have to do things alone. It leads a lot of people to avoid asking for help and, you know, neglect building deep supportive ties. What was the hardest for you about this migration journey? Now that you think about it and you can reflect about it, what really made you struggle the most?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 21:52
I'll say family and friends. Like, back home, you know, when you have dinner, you have dinner with 10+ people. And then here's like, people eat dinner at random weird times, and you get to eat dinner by yourself. And yeah, back home they'll cook and everybody eat at the same time. If you're not there, then you know you missed out. Like, it is like, that's it. But here's like, oh, somebody eat at 3, somebody eat at 4, somebody eat at 5. At 10. It's like just different times. So it's like seeing that and, and friends, friends just turning up to my house like random times. I feel like I missed that.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 22:39
And do you think people could do something different here that would enable a bit more of the friendship and the sense of community to emerge?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 22:50
I'll say maybe outdoor living more. I mean, like like park, utilizing park more. So I try to do this thing right in my area where I try to create a group chat with everybody around the area that do sports. Could be like different sports, but like just sports. And we just have to rock up at the park in the afternoons and play sports for 3 hours. So I try to do something like that.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 23:18
Escape the screen, escape the social media and be really truly connected as humans.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 23:25
Yeah, 100%. Where we just out there interacting 3 hours, 3, 2 hours. You can, some people come for 30 minutes, 1 hour, but I feel like it was working good for a while, but then it got cold.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 23:38
Then, you know, now it's like, it's a lot harder when it's cold to motivate people.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 23:46
We'll try again. We'll try again when it's when it's warm again.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 23:51
Yeah. No, I think it's a really good strategy to bring people together, you know, find a sport, an activity and being outdoor. I think we don't do this enough. And I think it's not really about Australia. It's a generational thing of being in front of our screens on our phones all the time. It does something to our brain. We become so addicted to that and then we forget that there is a person next to us that we could be communicating with. 100%.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 24:21
Yeah, people just need to go out there and hike. I feel like that's, that's the way to do it. Just go out there and hike.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 24:28
Yeah. You know, it reminds me, my first serious corporate job that I had here, I was at a desk, you know, everyone was having a computer and I was sharing my desk with another person. And for a whole year, this person never said hello to me. Like, I tried once and I think the person ignored me and I felt so ashamed that I never said hello again because I was like, oh, perhaps she doesn't want to connect with me. So I stayed at my desk and I felt it was the most isolating experience because we were, I don't know, 50 perhaps, you know, with our desks. In one room and no one was stopping to say, hey, how has been your weekend? Or, you know, like something small, but that opens the door to a conversation at a human basic level. It goes back to what you were saying in one of your posts, that you were surrounded by people and yet you feel so lonely. You feel like you are not seen.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 25:34
That is a big thing here. In Australia. I feel like you can go to places and events or anything, but you still feel like you're just there by yourself. There was a time that I went to this fashion, this fashion thing, and, and I remember I was— it was this room full of people. I was like standing in the middle of the room, and I remember I was looking around and it was like Everybody in this little tribes, this bullet tribes, and I was standing there by myself and I was like, I don't even know why I came here. That's what I remember I told myself. I was like, I'm not even talking to anybody, I'm just here by myself. And it just make you feel like you're just there by yourself. Everything just feels so isolated. I was like, I'd rather just stay home than go to places.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 26:28
And that's why you stayed home for a while, right? Like you described at the beginning of the interview that you were even not really motivated to go to the groceries because you didn't want to see people. That's crazy, right?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 26:42
Yeah. And then another part is like going through a lot of racial profiling from police. I feel like I just try to avoid that.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 26:51
So that happened a lot?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 26:53
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that happened a lot. At the end of high school, halfway through uni. Yes, I think, yeah, that happened a lot. And, you know, just being pulled over for walking. I made a video recently actually talking about it, and it was because I was like, and maybe I need to make a video about it because I do say racial profiling, but then I never put it in context. And one of the examples that I had was Me and my friends finished school. We were going to this pizza shop, and I remember we got stopped in the middle of the street, and we were pinned against the wall after school. And then the police was asking us where we're going, and even though we told them we're going to the pizza place, they didn't trust it. And we got pinned on the wall, and then we got searched even though we just came from school. Clearly we had school uniform on and school bags, and I think what hit me that time was how everybody else on the street that didn't look like us was staring at us like we did something, something bad. And I think that hit me because when I turned around and I saw how 15, 20 people just standing across the street staring, it made me question myself, like, am I a criminal? And then the ass Where's the ID? I'm like, first of all, we 16. I don't remember you have to walk around with ID and kind of programmed me. Now whenever I leave the house, I gotta like get the ID, even if I'm just walking down the street. Cause I'm like, I don't know if they're gonna stop me and take me to police station. Cause I remember I didn't have an ID on me. They took all of us to the police station., and our parents had to come to verify that, you know, we're not, we didn't do anything wrong. And I think going through that, it kind of conditioned me that, oh, every time you leave the house, you gotta leave with an ID. I remember I was leaving the house with one of my friends and I remember I was checking my pocket and it was like, oh, do you have your phone on you? I'm like, yeah, I do have my phone, but I don't have my wallet on me. And then, because, you know, my friend is Australian, and then my friend was like, why do you need your wallet for? We're just going down the street. I'm like, hey, I don't know. I don't know if they're gonna pull us over. Don't worry about it too much, but I'm gonna find my wallet so I can leave the house. And I feel like it's just one of those things that now it's like automatic in my mind that I have to get the wallet.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 29:30
Like it stayed with you?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 29:32
Pretty much. Because it happened so many times, so it's like I'm expecting it to happen. That's what it feels like. Wow.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 29:41
How do you feel when it happens?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 29:44
It made me feel like I wasn't part of this society, and I think it made me realize that, okay, you're different, you're never gonna be part of the society, and you just need to learn to obey and just live your life. And it made me learn to maneuver myself through things. So I gotta tiptoe now through things so I don't cause a lot of drama to anybody.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 30:12
Yeah, but at the same time, I wonder how you've overcome the feeling of unfairness, because it sounds that in those instances you were not doing anything wrong, and so there was no motives to arrest you. And so how did you overcome this sense of unfairness? Did you actually?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 30:34
I don't know if I overcome it, but one of my friends said, he said, you either cry about it or you laugh about it. I remember, yeah, I remember my friend told me that and I was like, okay, you know, maybe gotta laugh about it because you can't cry about it. 'Cause the more you cry about it, nothing is gonna change. But then if you laugh about it, You just keep moving on with your day.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 30:56
I guess it's a very wise way of reacting to something that you cannot change and doesn't depend on you. It's crazy that it's a thing and it keeps happening and it's not getting any better. Particularly in Melbourne, there is quite a big issue with the South Sudanese migrants. And I think they are particularly excluded or looked down upon.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 31:21
Like, I get it, like, when kids do crime, because the way I look at it, I'm not saying that, you know, some South Sudanese kids don't do crime, but that's like every other youth in the world, you know. All the young people do the same thing, you know. They go beat each other up, they commit crimes and all that, but because it's a fracture of number I just don't understand how we overtake the media platform. They're saying that we're committing most of the crime when we don't even make up 1% of the population, which is crazy because like, but there's so many other different crimes that's going on in Melbourne and people don't talk about it.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 32:04
Yeah, it's disproportionately focused on those communities, which makes it seem that it's bigger than what it actually is in terms of numbers.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 32:13
100%. And when this thing was happening, I remember South Sudan, like, we were just new in Australia because, you know, with South Sudanese community, a lot of them start coming here in like 1990s until now. So when I came here in 2006, everybody else was like extremely new in the country. So basically we were trying to figure out how do we adjust into this new society, but then us going through racial profiling, which is crazy because like we just got here. Hmm.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 32:50
Yeah. And it's interesting. It's like what you said about, am I a criminal? You get to question whether you actually are the thing that they see in you. And I think that perhaps a lot of youth would take that on board.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 33:04
Yeah, I'm pretty sure some people want to rebel against it, and because they want to rebel against it, they get into more trouble. So yeah, maybe that's why.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 33:18
Yeah. And I think there are psychological studies around how others' expectations of us lead us to have a certain behavior. If for some instance you hear from your teachers that you are smart and wonderful, then your grades are going to go up. And if you hear that you are super stupid, then you're going to believe it and actually do something that is going to reinforce the belief that people put in you. So I think that this is a fair comment to say.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 33:49
100%.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 33:50
Do you have a final advice for migrants who feel homesick, who are newly arrived here and struggled, perhaps, you know, a piece of advice that has helped you time and time again and that you think would help others if they embraced it?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 34:09
I would say maybe join events. I would say join events. Could be any event, but join event, integrate. I think what I figure out that helps so much is try to integrate with other migrants. Because they understand you more, and you would actually have better relationship, better friendship with other migrants. There's Australians out there that are good as well, you know. It's gonna be hard to find them, but most of them want to hang out in their own groups. So yeah, so my advice would be try to find people that are like-minded.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 34:50
Yeah. And other migrants can become a sort of family, chosen family.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 34:55
Yeah. Like I have a lot of friends from China, which is good. Yeah. Like we kind of understand each other. It's nice.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 35:04
And you are so right that knowing that they have had the same experience of integrating into another culture, having their family left behind, having their past identity left behind, there is common ground here. Do you have a book, a movie, a show, or any other kind of content that inspired you that you would like to recommend? It could be anything that inspired you. It could even be, because I know that you are very present on social media, it could be a profile of someone that, you know, you think perhaps deserves more recognition.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 35:42
This guy called The African Diary, Have you heard of him?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 35:48
No, I don't think I have actually.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 35:50
This, yeah, this guy called The African Diary. He lives, he lives in Africa and I remember last year I was watching a lot of his content and before I start putting out a lot of content I was watching his content and he would ride a bike in the street of Nairobi and he would tell stories. While riding a bike and he has a book. Yeah, I can't remember the book, but yeah, definitely the African Diary. That's the guy.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 36:20
Okay. And is there someone either from your community or someone that you admire that you would love to hear on this podcast?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 36:30
The guy that I do podcasts with would be interesting to get him. Yeah. Skeibizo.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 36:36
Yeah, Bizu is his name.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 36:38
Kay Bizu, yeah, that's his page. Yeah, it'll be interesting to, to see his perspective on some of the things. He does a lot of videos on racism and discrimination. He's African that's born in Australia. It's actually— he used to be originally from Sydney and he moved to Melbourne. I don't think he shares a lot of his opinion, but he's always in the middle. It's fairness, that's what I'm supposed— like, he's a justice guy. And it's interesting. Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 37:07
Yeah. And he's a first generation as well. And I find that it is quite interesting, I think, when you are born in a country, but your parents were from another heritage and you grew up with two different cultures, but at the same time, by definition, you are a bit more integrated because you go to school and everything. So it's a different dynamic. It's very interesting, I find.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 37:28
It is. Yes. So he's, yeah, he's an interesting guy. So that's, yeah, those two guys.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 37:34
I have two last questions for you. When I say the word migrant, what are the words that instinctively come to mind?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 37:41
If you talk about migrant, it remind me of wildebeest.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 37:46
Of what?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 37:46
You know the animal wildebeest? Like buffaloes? Wildebeest from Africa. They migrate from Kenya to Tanzania. So that's what I feel. So whenever we talk about migration, that's what it reminds me of. And I feel like that's what humans are as well. We always trying to find a greener grass somewhere else. We're moving from one place to another place to learn a new culture, a new way of living, a new integrating with different people, new people. And for me personally, I feel like from my father, my mother. There's too many migration that's been going on. Like, my father and my mother, they both met in Ethiopia. My father went, worked in Ethiopia. My mother went there and they met. And some of, you know, my siblings and me were born there. Then we migrated to Kenya, and then now I'm in Australia. So I feel like I'm like wildebeest, just moving around.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 38:52
Wow. Okay. I didn't know that your parents had migrated themselves as well.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 38:57
Yeah. So I think, yes, too much movement. So, and who knows what the future holds?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 39:05
Yeah. Perhaps your kids, if you decide to have kids, are going to migrate as well.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 39:10
Yeah. They might migrate somewhere. Life is all about migration, right? It's all about finding better opportunities somewhere and integrating with other people, learning. I think the most important thing for me is when I migrate into a new place is learning about the new place. Like, I learned so much about Australian history, I learned about different things, and then just learning about the way the society function in Australia because it's all, it all comes down to just learning.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 39:42
Yeah, and there are things that you cannot learn until you actually experience what it is to be the other, what it is to encounter a different culture. I think you probably have this feeling as well, I imagine, that I would have been a very different person if I had not migrated to Australia.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 40:04
Yeah, I think I would have been a businessman if I didn't move to Australia. Yeah, I always think that I would have been a businessman.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 40:17
But are you still proud though of the person that you've become here as a result of the migration?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 40:23
I feel like, yeah, it's been a good journey, been a good experience, um, learning a lot, and still there's more coming that I'm still learning. So we will see. We'll see what the future holds in Australia, but there's gonna be a lot of, yeah, a lot of more new experiences that's gonna come as we go. So who knows?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 40:48
Hmm. Well, my last question has to do with belonging in between cultures. And so I wonder, as someone who has ancestries from Uganda and Sudan but was You were born in Ethiopia and migrated to Kenya before resettling in Australia. Where is home to you?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 41:09
This one, I was actually watching a video about that maybe last year. I feel like last year was like the year that I learned so much. I was watching a video last year about this girl. She's Ugandan, but she's a Ugandan that was born in England, but then she was raised in America. So she grew up until she was like in her teens, moved to America, finished college there, moved to Kenya, and then moved to Uganda. So she has this blend of experience, right? And she said no matter where she goes, she doesn't completely feel like she belongs. Whether she was in a place where everybody speak the same language whether she was in England, whether she was in America. But what she said was all the pieces of her makes her belong everywhere because she has pieces of all these different places. And I feel like the pieces of myself, some pieces of me belong in Australia, some pieces of me belongs in Kenya or, you know, South Sudan. But I think it's the pieces of myself that made me a complete human. And it's the little bits because all the experiences that we went through, without those experiences, I would not be me. So now I belong everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 42:46
Yeah, it's like you flip this around And all these places are in you and make you whole in a way. Yes. I really like that. And so do you feel though that you belong in Australia?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 43:06
Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I think it depends on where you are. Like for example, when I went to Brisbane, I definitely didn't feel like I belong in Australia. But in Melbourne, it's like something about Melbourne. Whenever I leave Melbourne, I feel like I'm missing home because it's like Melbourne is home. And I think it's maybe because the people, people in Melbourne, because sometimes feeling like you belong somewhere is the people around you. It's not actually the house, it's not the area, it's about the connection and the community that you built. That makes you belong.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 43:46
Yeah. And do you feel though, with the friends that you have, that there is no code-switching happening? Do you feel like you can be your true authentic self now?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 43:58
Most of my friends are like migrants as well, and I do have some Australian friends, maybe one of them or two of them, that I can actually just talk to them and just not be somebody. But with the other migrants, I feel like I'm just me. I'm that guy, just loud, just says anything. But then with the other guys, it's like I have to like, you know, turn it down a little bit, making sure that, you know, they're all right.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 44:29
So yeah, you need to find the people with whom you don't feel like you have to be somebody you're not.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 44:38
Yeah, you have to change the accent. So there's times where I have to speak a little bit different, where you have to be professional, where you have to be yourself. And then there's time where you can be jokey, because I feel like me personally, I don't think I'm a serious person. I don't think I am. I joke a lot, and friends that see that, and then one day they see me like super serious, they're like, oh, who's this guy?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 45:07
Hmm. Yeah.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 45:09
Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 45:11
Is there something that we haven't talked about that you think would be important to finish the interview on?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 45:19
I would say loneliness and mental health is real and people need to check on their friends, family members, or people they know, making sure that they're safe and hang out with them. I mean, it's not that hard to call somebody for 2 minutes, 5 minutes, or just catch up with them, do like a walk.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 45:47
I think everybody just needs somebody to talk to and reach out to other people when you think about them. Do it, you know, send this 2-second message because yeah, it's true that sometimes we think about people and we don't take the time to be like, okay, just even not a very big paragraph of, uh, but just, hey, I've been thinking about you. How are you doing?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 46:14
That's it. That's all. Just quick message and move on. That's about it.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 46:21
Yeah. Even small gestures can be very meaningful. So for people who want to, you know, follow you and keep up to date with all the things that you are doing, where should they go? Where can they contact you?
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 46:36
I got TikTok and Instagram under @letstalkaboutitwithochan. I got YouTube channel, but I don't really be posting much on it. So until I post a lot, then, you know, people can get it, but it's all the same name.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 46:50
Yes, let's talk about it with Ochan.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 46:52
Let's talk about it with Ochan.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 46:55
I think, you know, as I said at the beginning, what you do is really real and it really brings important topic in a very personal way. But I think a lot of people can relate to what you've been experiencing and you're not afraid of talking about things that Yeah, very deep, raw, and yeah, I have a lot of admiration for your work. So I really encourage everyone to have a look at your platform and go and see your content and like it and share it. And yeah, I think what you do is really amazing. And it was just a pleasure to have you on From There to Here. Thank you.
Ochan Aba (Guest) · 47:35
You too.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 47:40
Thank you for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Ochan. If this conversation resonated with you in some way, please share this episode with a friend, leave us a review, or add stars in the rating of the show. And don't forget to follow us. It really helps this community grow. In 2 weeks, I will be interviewing Fabiola Campbell. A migrant from Venezuela who's now a published author and the founder of Professional Migrant Woman. Together we will talk about her new book, The Shame Many Migrants Carry: The Internal Hierarchies of Migrants' Worth, and the journey from focusing on what you lack to owning every part of yourself. So stay tuned. How was your I'm your host Emma Bellamy, and I cannot wait to bring you on another journey from there to here.
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