Nick White · 81 min
A medically discharged police officer who nearly took his own life is now running a nationwide charity to give first responders the safe space and mental health support the system still refuses to provide.
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Nick White joined the police to serve, following his father into the force after a decade in the military. He spent nearly 20 years at Liverpool station and beyond, seeing the job as a calling rooted in duty and protection. But the work exacted a cost he did not anticipate: repeated exposure to trauma without processing, the intimacy of his bond with other officers competing with his family relationships, shift work that meant he barely saw his children, and a culture that treated asking for help as weakness. When he reached his breaking point and nearly took his own life, the system that had trained him offered almost nothing. The Employee Assistance Program was not trauma-trained. There was no safe space to admit he was struggling. He was medically discharged, and in that moment of crisis and clarity, he realised something had to change.
Nick spent three-quarters of his disability payout starting Bellator Fortitudinem, a nationwide charity offering peer support and safe space for first responders who are struggling. What began as a Facebook group of police officers talking openly about mental health has grown to over 500 members across Australia, spanning police, paramedics, firefighters, corrective services, and volunteers. Nick now works alongside psychologists, therapists, and lawyers to provide the kind of support the system refused to give him. He has walked into Parliament to advocate for a formal inquiry into first responder mental health. He has spoken at the police academy, offering proof that an officer can ask for help and survive. He continues to push, to question, to annoy those in power until the structures change. His message is clear: the work costs everything. Until organisations and government actually listen to those on the ground, until mental health support is trauma-trained and readily available without stigma, that cost will keep climbing.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses suicide & self-harm prevention, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • Lifeline (24/7 crisis support): 13 11 14 · lifeline.org.au
“I've served my country. I've served my state and it's taken almost everything from me cuz if it wasn't for a couple of people and if it wasn't for my children I guarantee I would have killed myself.”
“As soon as you say mental health, you get ostracized. It doesn't matter what organization you're in, society will pigeon hole you as captain rats, you're sitting over there.”
“In my opinion, there's no such thing as mental health problems. You either do the job or you don't. I don't pay you to take time off to sort your mental health out.”
The hero, today
Nick joined the police because he saw it as a calling rooted in service and protection, but he now questions whether he would encourage his own children to do the same given what the work cost him. The intimacy officers develop with their team, forged through shared exposure to trauma and danger, creates a bond that often supersedes their relationships with family, and partners who aren't in the service struggle to compete with that. Nick's bucket was filled not by any single extraordinary incident, but by years of repeated exposure to trauma compounded by shift work, poor nutrition, broken sleep, and a culture where asking for help meant risking ostracism. The support systems that exist, like the Employee Assistance Program, are not trauma-trained and often fail officers at the moment they need help most, making them ineffective at preventing crisis. Nick spent three-quarters of his disability payout founding Bellator Fortitudinem because he was nearly lost to suicide and believes that first responders won't get the help they need until someone in power actually listens to those on the ground, not just senior management. The hidden cost of policing shows up not just in mental health and suicide, but in divorce, substance abuse, health crises, and damaged relationships with children who resent an absent or angry parent, and that cost belongs to the organisation to address.
Yes. Nick White is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Nick joined the police because he saw it as a calling rooted in service and protection, but he now questions whether he would encourage his own children to do the same given what the work cost him.
The intimacy officers develop with their team, forged through shared exposure to trauma and danger, creates a bond that often supersedes their relationships with family, and partners who aren't in the service struggle to compete with that.
Nick's bucket was filled not by any single extraordinary incident, but by years of repeated exposure to trauma compounded by shift work, poor nutrition, broken sleep, and a culture where asking for help meant risking ostracism.
John Milham (Host) · 00:02
Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. In this episode, John Millum is joined by Nick White. Nick shares his journey from joining the military and serving as a paratrooper to becoming a police officer like his father. After a serious injury, Nick moved to London where he worked at Harrods toy department and and then returned home where he found a new sense of purpose in the police force. Over nearly 20 years, Nick saw both the rewards and the heavy costs of being a first responder, especially on mental health and relationships. After his own struggles and medical discharge, Nick started a charity to offer support and safe space for others, using his lived experience to help fellow emergency services workers heal. Enjoy this episode with Nick White.
Nick White (Guest) · 01:00
Ladies and gentlemen, listeners to Kintsugi Heroes, welcome again to a Kintsugi Heroes conversation around sharing stories that matter. And today we have some— we're sharing a story that matters a great deal, not just to the bloke himself, but to the many people he now supports, helps, and provides some of his lived experience wisdom for. So Nick White, welcome to, uh, Consumer Heroes: Stories That Matter, mate.
John Milham (Host) · 01:32
Thanks very much, mate. It's a pleasure to be here, and thank you for having us.
Nick White (Guest) · 01:35
Oh mate, more than welcome. And of course, um, it always starts— these conversations always start with us getting a handle, uh, sharing a little bit about who Nick White is, right? So rather than me going into your story, can I ask you Um, you are called— of course, you're, uh, you are a past, an ex-soldier, an ex-first responder policeman, and now you're a counselor, coach, um, and a charity organizer. How on earth did you decide you wanted to be a soldier?
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The support systems that exist, like the Employee Assistance Program, are not trauma-trained and often fail officers at the moment they need help most, making them ineffective at preventing crisis.
This conversation includes welcome, from paratroop to policing, following his father into the force, life experience as currency, a calling, not just a job and the cost on relationships.
John Milham (Host) · 02:14
Um, I always wanted to join the military. I eventually, uh, well, I decided I was going to be a helicopter pilot. But I wasn't smart enough, so I thought, I'll leave that one for—
Nick White (Guest) · 02:28
You were smart enough to realize that not being a helicopter pilot was also a good choice, right?
John Milham (Host) · 02:33
That's right. So I thought, well, I'll go and be a grunt. So I joined the infantry and then realized that at that time you didn't really have to be too smart. So, you know, it was very physical. And then I became a paratrooper. We don't— unfortunately, we don't have them anymore in Australia. They got rid of the paratrooping role. 3RAR is still around. They're in Townsville. But when I was in, we were at, uh, Holsworthy. Uh, that's where I was based. And unfortunately, I got injured in a truck accident overseas in Asia, and I injured my L5 and my S1 vertebrae. So as I tried to keep going on and parachuting and doing the role, but it just became too painful. Yeah. And, um, it was literally right where the— pretty much right where your belt line sits, where the pack was. And I couldn't parachute properly, I couldn't carry the weight of the pack, and it was just Unfortunately, one of those things that I had to suck it up and I took a discharge, a medical discharge, and went and lived overseas for a while. Went to London and went from jumping out of planes as a paratrooper to working in the toy department in Harrods, which is—
Nick White (Guest) · 03:42
It seems like a very reasonable next step, right?
John Milham (Host) · 03:47
And yeah, did that for 5 years and come home. I woke up one day and went, why is the sky so gray and so low?
Nick White (Guest) · 03:53
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 03:55
Come home. And I was running my mate's bar. I didn't know really what I wanted to do, and then I thought, well, I need something more than just pouring beers. I joined— a friend of mine said, hey, come and join the sheriff's office with us. We can just work Monday to Friday, and it's overtime, and you're just serving paperwork pretty much. So I was doing that, and we also have court security, and I was on the front door of Liverpool in New South Wales, the Liverpool Courthouse.. And I saw this bloke coming towards us, he was in a police uniform, and I was like, gee, that looks like a mate of mine from the army. And sure enough, it was. He come through, we did the parachute course together and all, and we're in 3RR together. And he looks at me and goes, what are you doing here? And, uh, obviously haven't seen each other in a long time, so we started chatting. And he was like, no, come and join, come and join, you know, see if you can get to Liverpool. And went home, spoke to my, my dad at the time, who Unfortunately, he's passed away, but he did 28 years in the New South Wales Police. He did 7 years in the— sorry, 6 years in the Air Force as well. And he said, mate, go for it, you know, if you want to, you're old enough and ugly enough, in his words, to go through it all. So I joined up and as luck would have it, I ended up getting to work at Liverpool as my first station, which was his first police station as well. Wow. And we both joined at 27. So there was a lot of similarities between me and my dad in relation to joining the police. Yeah, and that's how I become a first responder, which was the start of a 20-year career.
Nick White (Guest) · 05:31
So, mate, amazing parallels, you know, like family, taking on the family business and so on.
John Milham (Host) · 05:37
Yeah.
Nick White (Guest) · 05:37
And I often think in my own case, right, I ended up being way too similar to my dad. I spent my entire life trying to avoid being him, and it didn't seem to work that well. How was that something you were comfortable with? Did you feel it in your bones, right? Was it a—
John Milham (Host) · 05:56
I did, actually.
Nick White (Guest) · 05:56
Was it an inheritance?
John Milham (Host) · 05:59
Yeah, it was. It was like the joining of the family club or the family, you know, the business, because my uncle was a Northern Territory police officer, my cousin was a New South Wales police officer, dad was obviously a police officer. So it was always based around something military or something police. And, um, like, having seen him come home, you know, in his uniform every other day, uh, it was something that was ingrained to me that, you know, we— to me, the police force was life, you know. We would go to functions and things like that. So hanging around the police and the police stations and all that sort of stuff was just like home to me. So, um, yeah, it was, it was a very proud day, proud day for me, obviously, for graduating, but I couldn't get the smile off my dad's face when, you know, I graduate from the academy and he's there and I'm going to his first police station. So yeah, it was a very, very emotionally good time for me. Yeah.
Nick White (Guest) · 07:00
So going from cop, going from the armed services, being away, and then, you know, sort of following in his footsteps, that seems like a reason to celebrate. Yeah, but what— was there some challenge in being a policeman's son?
John Milham (Host) · 07:21
There was, because my first superintendent was a mate of my dad's, and, um, he was a prosecutor at the time. Terry Jacobson was his name. He's out of the police force now. And, um, I remember I had graduated, so I was off the playground, and I was talking to Dad 'And I said, oh, that's my, um, gonna be my new superintendent. And my dad turns around and he says, oi, you fat fuck.' Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Jackson turns around and goes, 'Oh Jesus, why do you— I haven't seen you in years.' And he's— they have a little reunion. And he said, 'What are you doing here?' And he goes, 'Oh, my son just graduated.' And he goes, 'Oh, you, you're coming to work for me?' And I went, 'Yeah, thanks, sir.' And I'm like, 'Dad, you just called my my new boss, Liss. And he went, ah, don't worry about it, we go back years. And then when I actually get to the police station and you are with all the new police officers and we have the new training going on and the introduction to the superintendent, things like that, it was like I was already set a challenge because I do remember him saying— he came in and he just started talking, he pointed at me, he goes, I know you and I know your dad. And I still remember him saying, he said, if you are half the police officer that your dad was, you will be excellent. And so I was already under the pump and I hadn't even opened my mouth, sort of thing. So yeah, there was definitely a challenge there as to go, oh, you're Wadi's son. And there were still people in the police who knew my old man. And, um, you know, so that's— it's, it's definitely something that if you have a family member that is especially in the Sydney area, in the metro area. Um, yeah, you will be known. But it, it was, it was good. I was— I found I was also accepted by senior people because they knew my dad, but also because of my military background. Yeah, because I wasn't an 18-year-old kid straight out of high school or straight out of uni. I'd had that lived experience and that life experience where if they needed something done, they knew they could sort of count on me. So, um, those two things definitely played a massive plus for me joining.
Nick White (Guest) · 09:37
Yeah, wow. What made you well prepared for that job?
John Milham (Host) · 09:43
Um, definitely my experiences in the military.
Nick White (Guest) · 09:46
Is it better being a bit older, do you reckon?
John Milham (Host) · 09:48
Oh, definitely, definitely. They used to have an age restriction, um, so I think it was like 22 or something. It was in the 20s anyhow. Um, and I, I'm a firm believer that you should have a bit of life experience before you join. Um, and for want of a better phrase, you, you can tell the people who've never confronted an angry man or who have never been in a fight. Um, and I remember having a conversation with an instructor at the academy, and, and we knew each other from the military, and I said, it's almost like they need to punch the recruits in the face to make them realize, you know what, it hurts, but I can still keep fighting.
Nick White (Guest) · 10:30
Yeah, you're still going to function.
John Milham (Host) · 10:32
Yeah. And Like, I remember I joined with someone, um, who was extremely, extremely short, and she just passed the, the part of the physical, which was a— oh, it used to be a stand, and you put your hand up the wall, and then you touched it, and then you jump up. And apparently that distance means you can standing jump. Yeah, you can jump over a wall. And I'm like, no, there's a technique to it because I was expecting it to be training very similar to the military. And then when I got down there, I was like, oh, well, this is certainly different to what I was expecting. There was none of this, you know, over the wall and run and do this. It was all please, thank you, can you do this? It was none of the you are going to do this. And I think a definite height and age levels is a massive advantage. Purely for their own safety. And, um, as I said, having that life experience, you can understand why, um, people were angry, um, when they were going to situations. I remember, uh, I was out on one night shift. I still remember this. And I would—
Nick White (Guest) · 11:44
this—
John Milham (Host) · 11:44
the guy who was senior on the truck, he was like 21 and I was 27. Yeah, but he was out of university and, um, hadn't really done much. He went to high school, uni, and the police. Yeah, I do remember us turning up to a domestic and the guy wouldn't talk to him. He said, I'll speak to this guy. Yeah. And I hadn't said anything. I don't know whether it was just my bearing or what, but I do think there comes a lot of respect, but also, I suppose, the society can see you're a little bit different and a little bit more aged with that age gap. Not to say people can't— excuse me— join and be very good, but I do think it does assist in having a better general duties population if they do have a bit more life experience.
Nick White (Guest) · 12:43
Well, being kintsugi heroes, that's the Japanese art form of putting a broken crockery back together with and making it even more beautiful with its repair. So I think, you know, showing a few scars is actually a benefit sometimes.
John Milham (Host) · 12:58
So I had experiences where, you know, you'd walk into a house or something and like, I've got tattoos, and if someone else has got tattoos, it's, it's a talking point. Yeah, it's— and you can break down the walls by simple things or you know, you'd look around the house and you might see medals and you go, oh, you know, did you serve? Oh, I served as well. And it breaks down that us and them scenario to, oh, well, you did too. So you can de-escalate, um, situations by having that life experience. And it doesn't have to be military. You could have, you know, worked at the local pub for 5 years, and there you're going to see angry men and drunk people and, you know, all sorts. So that can also help you break down situations. So yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot to it.
Nick White (Guest) · 13:41
Do you think there's a, um, a type of person that should be, um, a policeman and then other p— other types of people that perhaps shouldn't be spending time in that world?
John Milham (Host) · 13:52
100%. I don't think it's a job, it's a career. It is a calling because there is something about being a policeman, um, that it's in your blood. Um, like I still get upset when I hear about, um, police officers passing. It is a, it is a massive bond. And you might not know the person, um, but it's, it's, it's because it's— you look at it and go, that could have been me. Um, and there is something ingrained in especially very good police officers. I think it's, it's a calling. There is definitely something about having that sense of being a police officer, because you get into the role to want to help people. You know, you do actually want to make people's lives easy. You do want to catch the bad guys. You do want to solve things. You do want to investigate and help little Mary Smith who got broken into, and it's the most horrendous thing she's ever done. You do want to be able to stop people from, you know, killing themselves on the highways. You do want to help that person who's considering suicide. So there's lots of different things to it. It's not just all about the high-speed chase or the shootout. That very, very rarely happens. Um, but yeah, there's, there's definitely a calling. I believe there's a calling. I think it's changing a little bit now as people go on because they see it more of a job than a career. Um, so I think that sort of aspect is changing things with people. Um, yeah, and the, the people I see getting recruited nowadays are more along the lines of, um, they probably do 5 to 10 years at the most, and I think they've had enough by then. Um, and then they'll be out. So, which, you know, is their call if they want to do it. You know, they were They were gutsy enough to stand up and do it to start with. So, you know, fair play to them.
Nick White (Guest) · 15:56
Yeah. And that's something we've spoken to a couple of people with, you know, paramedic backgrounds. Right. And they— that seems to be the division these days as well. So, you know, you might, you know, might be in for 5 years. Can be a very demanding job, of course, first responder in any of the services. So you, you, you, you managed to get, what, 20 years out of the force? So you—
John Milham (Host) · 16:21
Yeah. 19.6 years or something like that, but it all worked out to be roughly 20 years.
Nick White (Guest) · 16:28
And again, um, you know, you were medically discharged from the force as well. From my experience, right, as you pointed out, as your, um, you know, counselor mentioned, right, everybody walks out with, you know, carrying something, right? So, and, um, you know, there's a level— once upon a time it used to be tucked up and, and hidden away, and then the blokes, you know, so often retired policeman ended up in a world of challenge.
John Milham (Host) · 16:57
Yes.
Nick White (Guest) · 16:57
Right. You know, when things had to be dealt with. Now, you think it's— is it— it was never okay once upon a time to talk about that, that cost, which was universally paid by coppers everywhere.
John Milham (Host) · 17:11
Yeah.
Nick White (Guest) · 17:11
Do you think it's better now? Like, you're actually working in that space.
John Milham (Host) · 17:15
I think it's better. And I can judge from having seen my dad. Um, he, in his time, uh, alcohol use was massive. That's still around, but I don't see it as much, or I hadn't seen it when I was leaving. So I don't think alcohol use is as big as it was. It's still used. Um, I do remember, you know, all the Christmas parties and, you know, things we used to go to there. It was, you know, responsible service of alcohol kind of went out the window at some times.
Nick White (Guest) · 17:50
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 17:52
But I do know that it's a big issue for those who leave the police with mental health issues, or any emergency service, that alcohol, it's that numbing. It doesn't change the factors that you've gone through, but it can— you can try and help with your sleep because you just— well, not sleep really, you pass out. And I've been there myself when, you know, you're literally drinking to go to sleep and then you wake up and you're hungover, you know, those sorts of things. So it's not as bad as it was, but I do think it's still there. I think it's just a little bit more hidden, to be honest.
Nick White (Guest) · 18:33
Yeah. So with, um, you know, that self-medication through, um, so substances, alcohol and AOD, There are other aspects of things that, you know, that show the impact of the challenge of mental health from those who serve. Things like relationships, you know, we hear anecdotally a lot of impact on relationships. How does that play out from your experience?
John Milham (Host) · 19:04
Being in a first responder role, it's very difficult to have relationships. I've had relationships with people who weren't in the job, and I've had relationships with people who were in the job. It was— I found it easier to have relationships with people who are in the job because they understand. Yeah, yeah. The mother of my children— I've got 4 kids— the mother of my 4 kids was a police officer as well. Like, I've been— we've been divorced for years, and it's difficult because when you're with someone in the police, you might know what they're going through, you might understand it, but it does, does become, um, very difficult as well because, you know, opposite shifts, you might never get to see them. You're both seeing traumatic things, you're both seeing horrendous things. The inside political pressures as well. Um, yeah, for the outside of it, there is very difficult times for people who get into a relationship with other— with people in the services because they don't understand. There's a lot that plays on an emergency services, uh, mind that can impact their family. Because then, like, I didn't want to come home and tell the person who wasn't in the job, yeah, how was your day? And you used to go, oh look, real bad jobs, or whatever. And I do remember I was with a lady by the name of Karen Brown. She was a plainclothes security officer at Moorbank Hotel. A guy tried to rob her of the money from the hotel. She was a cash and transit officer. Uh, fight broke out. Um, the guy had, uh, saw and knuckle dusters on, on gloves, so he had obviously assaulted her quite severely. And during the scuffle and the fight, she ended up shooting him in the, in the car. Um, And I remember we were the first ones at the job, and after it all, we went home. We went to this lady's family for dinner, and then we just had dinner, and it was all right. I just, I wasn't really talkative. And then so we were watching a movie, and there just happened to be a scene very similar to what I had seen, and I got up and walked out. And, um, you know, even things like that, that started an argument because they didn't understand while I was in the other room crying, um, because you feel different things and it's— it was so raw. Um, the other thing that plays an impact with, uh, relationships is the bond you develop with your other officers.
Nick White (Guest) · 21:38
But the intimacy is part of the role. Like, when you intimately rely on someone, someone is your team and your tribe. Yeah, the intimacy is part of the situation, right? Exactly. You know, even it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be the same type of intimacy, but that, that must impact on the, you know, at-home relationship.
John Milham (Host) · 22:01
Because I, I can remember having a barbecue at my house and, you know, partners were there as well, but it was like the police and the partners.
Nick White (Guest) · 22:10
Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 22:11
And they were getting annoyed with us because we'd be laughing and joking and carrying on.— or even times when I can remember being at home and I would call someone and talk about something because I couldn't talk to the partner because what I would tell you would probably make you go, you need to, you need to get out of that job. I can't believe you saw that. Um, so yeah, you're very, very right. There is that intimacy in relation to what you've experienced, and, and it's, and it's that experience that you've been through together because a lot of the experiences are life and death, um, and it's very, very difficult to hide your own feelings and hide your emotions when you're away from that. And that's why there's a huge amount of, uh, divorce, there's a huge amount of domestic issues, um, there's a, there's a lot of people who get locked up as a result, there's a lot of people who hit the booze, and more prevalent, um, is hitting um, illegal substances. Um, yeah, yeah, you know, they, they do what they do to try and escape those sorts of things. And thankfully, with the change in times, um, more people are inclined to say, I need to, to seek some mental health, health. And they go to, um, St. John of God at Richmond, or they might go to the Wollongong Private Hospital— that's one of the best around— and they, and they try and better themselves. Whereas years ago, when my old man was in, and even when I started you didn't do that because you were fearful of losing your job. There's also economic factors. It's like, you know, you might go, well, yeah, I haven't seen you in, you know, 3 days. It's like, yeah, because I've been doing 12-hour shifts and, you know, we're getting overtime and my cancelled rest days. So it all adds into it because you might go, oh, well, I'll do some cancelled rest days to get more money, but then your family and that are impacted. And I remember from my dad that I saw more of him on TV when I was in my early teens to when I actually did it at home. I was on TV a lot as well, so I can see the similarities in those sorts of things. That impacts your family because your, your, your kids don't get to see you as much. You're sleeping, you're tired, you're angry. You don't get to go to birthdays, you don't get to go to Christmases, um, and your friend circle becomes the people you work with because they're like your second, or sometimes they become closer than your friends and family because you're with them all the time.
Nick White (Guest) · 24:46
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 24:46
Uh, so it plays a huge thing. And, and again, that will turn around and, and impact someone's mental health because it's not just the what you've seen, it's the impact of what you've seen it has on your family as well.
Nick White (Guest) · 24:59
Yeah, that's right. And we know, uh, from research that trauma is And, you know, everyone deals with it differently, but one thing almost is consistent is that repeated exposure to trauma without mitigating it with some level of, you know, safety management and process will almost— well, will 100% have a long-term impact on people.
John Milham (Host) · 25:21
Oh, massively, 100%. I totally agree. It's a job where if you go into it, yes, you are aware that you're going to see certain things, but when you're involved in it, the things you see, you didn't know, uh, yeah, would be happening beforehand. I said it to my son, my 16-year-old son, on his— we're talking about PlayStation or something, and he asked me something. I said, listen, real— you can't respawn in real life. Like, you can't just hit the button and redo it. Once you're gone, you're gone, uh, and you can go in a, a myriad of horrendous ways. And I don't think society is ready to understand that because they want that picture-perfect world where, um, you are that thin blue line. You are what goes out and holds the darkness away so you can sleep in your bed at night. Because if people saw what we did, there probably wouldn't be a great deal of people that would put their hand up to do the job.
Nick White (Guest) · 26:19
No, absolutely. It's interesting. I think even more than the, you know, the existential crisis that people go through It's that idea of almost the video game approach. When you're hurt, you just press a button and reset your health, right? It's not—
John Milham (Host) · 26:39
Doesn't happen that way.
Nick White (Guest) · 26:40
But of course, that doesn't work when you're carrying— when you're sick or you're injured or you've seen something and you haven't had time to process it. You got to go back out again, right?
John Milham (Host) · 26:52
That's right. You got to go back out. You got to be exposed to that. We're all carrying injuries. Um, like my thumb was broken for 6 weeks and I didn't even realize until I just thought I'd hurt it, I sprained it, and then it was to be fine. And the other thing that impacts people that don't really realize it much is, is your nutritional health. Yeah, because, you know, if you're 3 o'clock in the morning and you haven't even had a break for the last 6 hours, the only thing open is a 24-hour Maccas or get a dodgy servo pie. So your nutrition goes way down because of the job, or you need to eat something quickly. And it was weird. And like, you see people go, oh no, I can— it's very good for the people that sit in an office and do their stuff within the police. Yeah, that's great. You can have your homemade dinners and things like that. Unfortunately, they're not the ones that are dropping it and running to something and So yeah, your nutrition is, is terrible, uh, and that's why you do see a lot of, a lot of police officers and most of us now, they're getting more into the whole CrossFit and fitness kind of thing because you have to, um, and you do see some overweight police officers because when you do shift work, it's difficult too.
Nick White (Guest) · 28:08
Lack of sleep increases the amount of weight you carry.
John Milham (Host) · 28:12
The human body is— you shouldn't be awake at like 3 in the morning. And I used to say, if you're awake at 3 in the morning, you're either on your way to work, you're being paid to be up, or you're doing something wrong. And you want to sleep. You, you, at that time, you should be asleep. And that's why your body wrecks you because you're just like, I'm so tired. And between 2 and 4, that was when I felt worse because it was like, okay, it's 2 o'clock in the morning now. I really need to go to sleep. So you'd be hitting yourself with energy drinks and caffeine. And then by the time you finish at 6 in the morning, you're buzzing because now you've had too much caffeine and then you've got to go home and sleep. So yeah, fitness is, is something that is being very much pushed in emergency services, and I, and rightly so, I think, because the healthier you are, um, the easier it is going to be to do your job. But there's a— I think there should be a massive push for proper diet and nutrition because, like I said, at 3 in the morning when you have a break unless you've bought something from home that you can actually eat quickly or have the time to do it, you're struggling.
Nick White (Guest) · 29:17
Yeah, that's a great point. It's interesting you mentioned your father's generation, right? I was watching a documentary on the ABC about the, you know, the famous armed robbery squad in Melbourne that had, you know, was in, you know, essentially at war with the, you know, the organized crime crew that was down there at the time. And there was quite a lot of violence involved. And these guys were the hard men of the, of, you know, police history, right? They, you know, their names were legend in that period. And they were interviewed, and it was interesting how all of them had the same thing. They, you know, they were retired, long retired, and, you know, sort of, and they all were struggling with what they had done, you know, whether they were involved in a shooting or, you know, they'd seen the loss of their colleagues or, you know, had been involved in injuring or killing someone else. All of them were paying the price of that now, and that none of the culture then had involved any kind of long-term recognition of that cost.
John Milham (Host) · 30:33
Yeah, yeah.
Nick White (Guest) · 30:33
So, you know, when you've done that, obviously the cost is still there.
John Milham (Host) · 30:38
Yes.
Nick White (Guest) · 30:38
You think we've learned those lessons now?
John Milham (Host) · 30:41
Uh, no, I don't think we have. Um, and it's funny you say that because in New South Wales it used to be called 21 Division, and that's the division you went to before you went to like the detectives and homicide and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, they were probably a little bit of a hit squad back then. They'd turn around to, you know, they'd go to big issues and stuff like that. So I can see that happening. When my dad got out and a lot of the people that he was in had started to leave as well, all these underlying health issues started to rise. Like, my dad ended up with cancer, and that's what he passed from. And then everyone else started to have heart attacks just out of the blue, getting cancers, and they were just falling off the perch left and right because it was almost like they had been they'd been like up here all the time, and then suddenly they don't have to sit with their back to the wall and, yeah, and be ready to go, and who's that bloke, and all this sort of stuff. And their body didn't know what to do with being normal, sort of thing. I don't think that has been really addressed as much. Um, yes, the policies and procedures have changed and things like that, but the mental health and the aftercare, if you want, is seriously lacking. They've just redone it in New South Wales with the police, um, but like, I lost 5 friends in the police to suicide when I was in, um, and we, we've lost— I've lost some more since starting this charity, um, and it's unfortunate that it's the same same issues being raised, uh, and it's the same lip service, or what we used to call it. So it's just the same lip service that the— you get from headquarters, and then it's sort of, you know, back to square one sort of thing. Um, I know for a fact they do not have enough staff. Um, there is serious, serious amount of people getting out because of their mental health. Their recruitment is really poor at the moment, um, and that's why you see a lot of these, uh, different states doing these social media drives and, and, you know, paying recruits and trying to get them from other countries and that, because they just can't get people to do those jobs at the moment. And, um, really, if I was honest, I— if one of my kids said, hey, I'd like to join the police, I would be, you know what, we need to have a chat because as much as it is, yes, it's your opinion, you're an adult, you can do it, you've seen what it did to me. Um, and I don't want you to be involved in that atmosphere. I don't want you to have the nightmares. I don't want you to have the relationship breakdowns, all this sort of stuff. So I think there is a long way to go with how the organizations across the country deal with it. Um, Being an ex-military individual, yes, I totally understand how the vets need to be, uh, dealt with, um, and they have their mental health treatments and things like that. We've had all the— they were all commissions into that sort of stuff. But there seriously does need to be, um, obviously, you know, it's a bit different state by state, but they need to have an investigation or something done on a statewide and then a national level as to what can we do to help, yeah, these individuals. Um, and it's, it's not just the police, it's, it's across the board with all paid and, and unpaid emergency services organizations because, you know, they're doing this and, and they seem to be trying the same things over and over and over again. Um, yeah, I've, I've got ideas and I've got things that I think would be better And I've pushed them towards the— before I got out, I did a big report to headquarters, to the commissioner and things like that, about how mental health treatment of the troops should be changed and should go back in certain ways. And it should be more hands-on instead of just ticking a box on a computer and more, a more personal approach. Uh, relationship, on-call psychologist team, all this sort of stuff. And what annoys me so much, having done what I've, what I've done, like I've served my country, I've served my state, and it's taken almost everything from me. Because if it wasn't for a couple of people and if it wasn't for my children, I guarantee I would have killed myself.
Nick White (Guest) · 35:23
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 35:23
Um, and that's not a nice thing to say. I'm not proud of that in any way. Um, but you know, people really need to realize that there is a human cost to Yeah, um, what we do in relation to policing and to being an ambulance officer and to being, um, you know, firefighters, all that sort of stuff, nurses, correctives— there is a massively human cost. Um, and that's a big battle that I'm having at the moment, is to raise funds for our charity and get people aware of just the significance. Like, the person who turns up at 2 o'clock in the morning because you've been flogged by some idiot who's just busted into the wrong house Yeah, you don't know what they've just been to. They might be angry because they've just had to go and spend 3 hours at a, at a crime scene where someone has hung themselves and they have seen horrible things, or you don't know what's going on. So, um, you know, it's not the, uh, not the bright, shiny, you know, person you see at 7 o'clock in the morning first off on the shift. There's, there's a massive amount of stuff behind the scenes that society doesn't see. And, and, you know, if we can try and stop one person from hurting themselves, then it's worth it. But it's, it's just trying to get these people in positions of power to say, you know what, we need to do this, and to try and get media attention to this national crisis. And people don't believe me until you bring up statistics where it's like, you know what, there's since, like, I think it was since 2013 or something like that, there's over 200 police officers, just 200 police officers alone, who have committed suicide in relation to their job.
Nick White (Guest) · 37:04
Yeah, we're talking 5 times more likely to be, to, um, you know, to die by suicide than the average male.
John Milham (Host) · 37:11
So that's right. And it's, and it's like they, um, I was watching something the other day and they said there's like, uh, 9 people commit suicide a day over a certain period of time. And they could be anyone from you know, average Joe. And then when, as soon as, as soon as, unfortunately, when a, when emergency services individual commits suicide, they always seem to try and put it back to their personal life. Yeah, but their personal life wouldn't be such a dog's breakfast if situations were handled differently within the job.
Nick White (Guest) · 37:45
Well, how does it— it's such an immersive position, you know, when you, you know, when you do rely on tribe and you do enter as a um, as a calling, not just a position. Yeah. How, how is it— how is that not totally, you know, involved in whatever's going on for you? You know, your relationships suffer, your engage— you know, your health suffers, your mental health suffers, right? And it has to be directly related to you, you know, to that particularly difficult mindset. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 38:17
I mean, I remember even myself, like, um, I would just be so angry. Yeah. And because of all the jobs that you see and you go to, and then you end up taking that home and you end up speaking to your family.
Nick White (Guest) · 38:32
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 38:33
Like they're the individuals you've just—
Nick White (Guest) · 38:36
yeah, wow.
John Milham (Host) · 38:37
Like you, you do. And it's— I swear I'd never do it, but I did exactly what my dad did because he would talk to us like criminals.
Nick White (Guest) · 38:46
Yeah. So you're criminalizing your personal relationships, right? Yeah. You know, you're on the sporting field or your family or your wife in bed, you're actually, you know, you know, projecting what you, what you're seeing every day, you know, for the 12-hour shifts or whatever that you're in.
John Milham (Host) · 39:03
I mean, I remember my mum, she, she called my dad on it and she said to him one day, you pick the job or you pick your family, you can't have both. We aren't going to stand here and let you do this. And, um, and he went, he went away to work and, and came back one day and said, oh, you know, I figured it all out, you can survive on this and I can pay you this, and And like, I mean, she's a small lady and she knocked him out one day. She, she punched him and left him laying on the front step. Um, and he kind of woke up and thought, you know what, it's— my family's worth more. Because it was happening to the same— yeah, the same thing was happening to all his mates as well. They were all going through it. So, and unfortunately that still happens. So I have, uh, friends on the charity and, and people that I see who their relationships are still struggling and they're still trying to deal with it. Um, yeah, so that it doesn't just impact the individual, it impacts the family as well, impacts the children. Um, they get to— your children get to resent you, A, because they never see you, and B, because when they do see you, you're angry all the time.
Nick White (Guest) · 40:10
Yeah. You, you mentioned, you know, you've got some ideas, a couple of things. Do you think Like, you know, we talk about, you know, you mentioned earlier about why you did it, you know, the idea of helping others and so on. That concept of servant leadership, is that like a different mindset? You know, like, is that something we can bring in so that people are actually feeling like it's not an adversarial relationship, it's actually a service one?
John Milham (Host) · 40:38
I think it's something that they can look at, definitely. I'd probably say now you're probably looking at maybe 60 to 70 people, 70% of people that join are joining because they legitimately do want to help. Yeah, a lot of the other people will be thinking it's all fun and games and doing it for the social media and the social status and all that sort of stuff, um, not realizing what they're about to get into.
Nick White (Guest) · 41:08
Um, they do it because the uniform looks good on Instagram, you know.
John Milham (Host) · 41:12
They go, oh, look, I'm a police officer, and all this sort of stuff. And then the next thing you know, that— but they might be doing it because they want to get into, I don't know, the PolAir or Dog Squad or something like that. So they're looking at it differently. And, and there are people that I have seen who joined, got to the police station, and after a week went, this nothing that I thought it was going to be, and handed in their badge and said, I'm done. I don't understand how, how they get through all that training and realization that, you know, you can do it, and then when you get to the station and you get to your first brawl, or you get to your first domestic, and it's, it's nothing like you see anywhere. Um, and I think it's a very eye-opening thing. I do think they need to to work on that. It's a calling. Um, I was actually having a discussion, like, the charity I, I created as a result of getting out. Um, I went and had coffee with some people at Goulburn, and they still work at the academy. They still are police officers in Goulburn. And one of them said to me, did you, do you realize that with all this recruitment drive they're doing, and hey, you know, we're now paying you, and all these silly little ridiculous social media things they're not working. And did you ever see the New South Wales Police recruitment drive with, um, 'He ain't heavy, he's my brother'?
Nick White (Guest) · 42:37
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 42:37
Oh yeah, that one. That whole recruitment ad was the— and is still classed as the best recruitment ad in Australia for police, because with that, people saw it as looking after the old lady who got barreled going chasing the guys who stole a handbag, catching the bad guys. And it was showing that, you know, you are a caring individual, you are here to help people, and you're also here to catch the bad guys. So that has a— um, that had a much, much better, um, recruitment drive than these people singing and dancing on social media because it's the thing to do. Um, Personally, I don't like those sort of things because you're in a paramilitary organization. If we weren't in a paramilitary organization, you wouldn't have combat boots, you wouldn't have combat trousers, you wouldn't have a combat vest and a gun, and you wouldn't be seen in that role, um, because you are there as, as the, the law. You're there to uphold the law. And I don't see that dancing to TikTok songs, um, things like that, does too much to encourage people, um, to join. It encourages people a lot to take the piss out of them, but it doesn't see, um, or I don't see how that can encourage people. It might be a different mindset for the youth of today, like I'm 50, um, but yeah, I, I think they need a different approach to, to the whole, um, it's a calling And it is, it is a calling. It's not just a job.
Nick White (Guest) · 44:21
So, you know, if we, if we think about, you know, the calling and the purpose of it, right, and that ad spoke to purpose, right?
John Milham (Host) · 44:29
Yeah.
Nick White (Guest) · 44:29
But that paramilitary approach too, that, you know, that has gone to extremes in, say, you see in the US, right, where they're literally, you know, you know, sort of training like, um, you know, like troops. Um, But your background, much of your policing, you know, moved from the city to the regional areas. Yeah. And, you know, I would suspect from my experience in the region and your— what you were saying earlier is that, um, you know, that policing is very different. It's, you know, it does— owes a lot more to relationships than it does to paramilitary training.
John Milham (Host) · 45:06
Oh, I did. Like, the, the difference between city and country, um, policing is like chalk and cheese. I went out there, I was in Highway Patrol for a long time, and I went out to Parks at my last posting. And I was, I was out there and the bosses had said, listen, you're good at what you do. We— they had a lot of problems with, uh, illegal hunting and these massively modified four-wheel drives that they use for hunting and they were having a lot of, um, break and enters into farmhouses, guns being stolen, all this sort of stuff. And I was told, listen, go out there and do what you do, because there were— there wasn't— there was one officer in the station and he was trainee, um, and the other officer was injured, and there wasn't a— like, there was a lot of people off. Um, and I went out there with the, you know, the, the city approach of, you know, well, you've done something wrong, let's sort it out. And I used to get a lot of complaints purely because these people hadn't been stopped by someone before who was just, I'm not here to be your friend, let's sort it out. And it took probably, I reckon, about 3 to 6 months for me to change my outlook and go, you can get a lot more out of what I'm doing by just changing my approach. Um, you know, I would still, you know, the modified four-wheel drives, there's a lot of people out there who have no clue about them. They just modify them themselves and think they're great. If you want to modify something, do it legally, and I'm all happy for you. But what I used to say to them is, when you come on the road, it becomes my problem because you might have an accident that's going to kill someone else. Then I'm the one stuck dealing with it. So I used to— I might not give them a ticket, but I'll give them the defect notice because I knew that what's defectable on this car costs more than the tickets.
Nick White (Guest) · 47:08
Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 47:08
So it's like, well, I'm not going to sting you twice. And I would encourage them to go to certain places and go, look, this is the only— there was a guy who was the only one in the region who was certified to— you know those hunting lights?
Nick White (Guest) · 47:22
Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 47:23
Well, it's not— you're allowed to have the hunting lights, but the inside of it has to be certified as safe. So people don't smack their head on it. And no one knew this. And I knew of the guy, and I said, mate, do you have cards or something? Because all these people I'm stopping are having a crack at me when I'm going, this needs to be done, you can have it, just do it safely. Yeah. And it got to the stage where I changed my whole attitude to talking to them. And, you know, either giving them a warning on something minor and recording it, or I just give them the defect and say, look, just get it done, mate. And then I would stop them and, you know, 2 or 3 weeks later and they go, oh, thank God I saw you, because not only did he fix this, he realized this was wrong and he told me all about this. And it's a different approach, and you can get a lot more help to solve things even changing your approach, because people realize you're— you are human. And if it— for a— for an operational safety point of view, if it all went to crap and you're standing on the side of the road punching on with some bloke. I would hope, and I have, I have had it done where a local stops and comes and helps me instead of driving past going, oh yeah, there's Whitey, he can cop a punch in the head, see you later.
Nick White (Guest) · 48:38
He deserves it.
John Milham (Host) · 48:40
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's massively different because that wouldn't— or I can't remember of ever getting assistance when I was working in the city because, you know, it's like when we were growing up, everyone knew everyone. You knew your neighbors. Nowadays, no one knows anyone. So yeah, you're, you're very, very, um, impacted by your location in policing. And I, I know a guy, he's out, he got attacked with a machete. He was at a one-man station, and if it wasn't for a local farmer coming out with his shotgun and telling the bloke, if you don't stop, I'm going to have to shoot you, uh, that he's still alive. Um, so, you know, you're Sometimes your life is dependent on the society and town that you're in.
Nick White (Guest) · 49:24
You mentioned you had some ideas. Is that a part of the, you know, like community policing and things like that? Is that, you know, is there ground in that area? And what are some of those ideas you think might make a difference?
John Milham (Host) · 49:37
Yeah, well, when, when I was waiting to get out of the police, I started a Facebook group called Bellator Fortitudinem. That's the symbol there.
Nick White (Guest) · 49:44
And that's, that's your, your, um, um Latin, um, yeah, Latin for warrior strength.
John Milham (Host) · 49:53
And, um, it started off with just some friends, some police friends, and we're all in the same kind of mental health space, and we're all just talking about how things could be changed. And then it became bigger and bigger, and more agencies were— or more people from different agencies were contacting me, and I thought I better open it up to you know, the main three. And then I was getting corrective services contact me, guys and nurses and lifesavers and all this sort of stuff. And I ended up— it got too big to be just a Facebook group. And I thought, you know, we have a lot of problems here, we need to change some stuff. So I turned it into a non-for-profit charity, um, and we're now across the country, we're nationwide. Um, we've only— I think we've only been nationwide for maybe 6 to 12 months, and we've got 500 and just under 550 members across the nation, and that's growing every day. Um, so the whole idea of, of the changes are the, the things that need to happen to create longevity for people, um, is to, to care for their mental health. And that all starts with education. And this is while they're back at the academy, and it can be done at any training academy. Yeah. If you talk about the individual's mental health, they're more than likely going to do something. Because when I went through, there was no discussion about sitting at a police station, putting up your hand, going, you know what, that job really screwed me up, can we talk to someone?
Nick White (Guest) · 51:24
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 51:25
Whereas I even volunteered with— to the police to— I said, I'll volunteer to go down to the academy and I will stand there and go, I'm living proof that you can put your hand up and ask for help, and you don't have to be a statistic. Um, yes, it's going to hurt, and again, a lot of people don't like to hear it, but they even stand up at the police academy and go, you can look around. Look, I remember them saying, look left and right, that person might die while they're in the police force. Yeah, but they don't say, hey, look left and right, that person's going to struggle with mental health and kill themselves, or they're going to resign, or, you know, be be medically discharged.
Nick White (Guest) · 52:07
Divorce, might be, you know, might get cancer as a result of not dealing with the psychology of it all.
John Milham (Host) · 52:12
Yeah, or even the fire is that this person's going to suffer with asbestos poisoning.
Nick White (Guest) · 52:16
Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 52:17
Well, so there's a lot to say for education, and I do think it needs to be addressed. It needs to be brought up across the board that it's not— and that's why I opened the charity up to paid and volunteer because I know of some, uh, surf lifesavers and the 16-year-old girl, her very first shift that she did this, um, she was holding on to a drowned victim.
Nick White (Guest) · 52:50
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 52:50
And she's been traumatized. She doesn't, she doesn't do the surf lifesaving anymore because she can't deal with— doesn't go to the beach, doesn't do anything. The family had to move away from the water Yeah, and that was the poor girl's first dealing with that. So it needs to be across the board. Anyone who's doing this sort of stuff needs to have training, needs to have the understanding that yes, you're going to see bad stuff, but we have the therapy ready to go. Like, a prime example is I had said to the police, I said, you need to go back to a face-to-face evaluation from your superior. Because when I joined, my sergeant, if I came in looking like a bag of crap, yeah, he would always go to me, why do you look so tired? What's wrong? Oh, I haven't, you know, family troubles, finance troubles. And there is, there is the Employee Assistance Program, the EAP, that runs through every one of the government organizations. They're good for finances and divorce and kid issues. They're not trauma trained. Um, when I had my very last, um, EAP, uh, interaction, let's say, um, after this bad job with a 1-week-old baby, I was put through to a guy in Victoria and he started telling me jokes about when he was at Parks for 5 minutes. And I said, mate, do you realize what I just did for 35 minutes? And he said no. I said, well, don't ever call me again. And I hung up.
Nick White (Guest) · 54:20
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 54:21
Um, because they're not trauma trained. And I had said things that need to happen is you need to have face-to-face evaluations, you need that sort of super— you need to have all your supervisors mental health trained. Um, because it's not just this person who's coming in going, I feel so terrible. The visual signs of you look like you're hungover, you are hungover, your shirt's not ironed, you look terrible, you're not shaving, all this sort of gear. Or taking too much sick time. Yeah. There's generally some sort of issue behind them. If you're doing these sorts of things, it's not just a random, hey, I've got to take a sickie. If you're taking constant days off, it's like, what's going on? And the whole education side of it is massive, as I said, but also having an on-call psychological team. Because if there's on-call everything in every organization, surely we could have an on-call psychological team who can go, like, things like, say, okay, the Lindt siege. And I know they would've— they have had people at the scene, but that's a situation where if something like that happened at another location, get the psych team there and you can start triaging all the officers.
Nick White (Guest) · 55:36
So, do you think that team— so, I have a, you know, I push a barrow for lived experience and peer support.
John Milham (Host) · 55:44
Yep.
Nick White (Guest) · 55:45
So the idea of getting, you know, people like yourselves would offer a perspective in supporting fellow officers or even ex-members coming back with appropriate lived experience peer support training. You don't need, you know, you're probably better off talking to someone who knows the job than someone who has a degree in psych.
John Milham (Host) · 56:09
Well, that's right, because I mean, if you're if the, if the incidents happened, you don't need someone like me. If the incidents happen, you're going to need the professional therapists. Yeah, but before that incident happens, and to try and make you realize that the everyday job that you go to— because nothing's ever simple, um, I would be the sort of person that you would come to. And, and I, I'm happy to, to be in this sort of training because like they have certain hours of education or training they have to do every year, and that could be sitting there learning about the new licensing legislation or whatever the case may be. But this is where people like myself can come in and go, all right, well, you know, none of you know me, but this is what I did, um, and these are the symptoms that I had. Because I guarantee if you were to have 30 people sit there and I talk to them, at least 10 of them would be feeling the same way. They'd be going, Jesus Christ, this is me. Because I thought I was the only one. Because you do, you do feel like that. And as soon as you say— and this is society across the board— as soon as you say mental health, you get ostracized. It doesn't matter what organization you're in, society will pigeonhole you as Captain Rats. You're sitting over there, we don't want anything to do with you. Um, and that's a societal issue, and that's something that organizations both in the private sector and the public sector need to address is the stigma attached with mental health. I had several issues all happen in the space of like a week and a half, and the plane crash was the last one. And I ended up being directed to have some time off. My boss had said, "You're not coming back because if you come back too soon, I don't want to have to come and see you when you've done something wrong and you're now getting charged." So, I ended up having the time off, but I was— as soon as I had said mental health, over the course of a year that I had off, and when I went back to work at my nearest police station, which was now a police station at the time, to get back into work, one person from my police station had contacted me. So it's— you lose friends inside the police or inside your organization by simply owning up to say I have some mental health issues because of what I've been through, because everyone's bucket's different. And my dad always said, little Johnny Smith who's coming home from the club, he might drive past you guys sitting at an accident site and it might look absolutely horrendous and there's an ambulance there, but the person could be fine inside the ambulance getting treated. But that might be the most triggering thing that this individual has seen their entire life.
Nick White (Guest) · 58:58
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 58:59
What people don't see is the emergency services have to deal with that job, and then they've got to go to a violent domestic, then they've got to go to an armed holdup or suicide, whatever the case may be. And they have to compartmentalize that. So you're seeing so many horrific things that your bucket might get full pretty quick. My bucket might take a little bit longer, but at that time, everyone's bucket is going to overfill. It could be just one last drop. And, well, I won't go into full detail because I'll burst into tears, but my last job was, um, an unresponsive 1-week-old twin baby. And I just happened to be in that street, and I was in highway patrol, and obviously I got there quick. And, um, I remember running down the hall, and the mother's in there, and the father was— he was upset. Obviously. And, um, I remember seeing the little Harry. He was about this big and he was light blue. Um, and anyhow, started CPR, and, and that's when I kind of realized that there was actually a— you know how they always said twins had that connection?
Nick White (Guest) · 1:00:18
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:00:18
Every time I pushed on his chest, the other twin cried. And I ended up saying— oh, hang on, give me a sec. I ended up saying to his mum, can you please take him into the lounge room? Like, I can't, I can't hear that.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:00:41
Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:00:41
Um, and yeah, paramedics turned up and I thought, great, I'm gonna stop doing what I'm doing. But they went, no, no, you keep going while we do this.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:00:51
Yeah, that's—
John Milham (Host) · 1:00:51
I'm like, trying to be crazy.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:00:52
I was trying to look at what what they were doing.
John Milham (Host) · 1:00:56
And especially the inspector, he was, you know, trying to get medication into the— which I never, I never knew. When you're that young, it's easier to get medication into the bone rather than— yeah, because they're so small. So I was trying to focus on those things. And, and that's why I still, I still do that quite a lot, because I can still feel him on my fingers. I used to feel him on my tongue, on my—
Nick White (Guest) · 1:01:20
wow.
John Milham (Host) · 1:01:22
From doing CPR. Um, so yeah, for 35 minutes I was doing that to the point where my hands cramped and I physically couldn't do anything.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:01:30
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:01:31
Um, and unfortunately he passed away. Um, and, uh, I remember walking out and the duty officer said to me, you okay? And I said, I think I'm done. Um, and he said, what are you going to do? And I said, I'm going to cry. And I got in the police car and I drove down the road and I burst— yeah, I, um, I burst in tears. And, um, yeah, so it could be something as traumatic as that, and that was the last thing that filled my bucket. But it could be something as simple that I've seen other people who have done a lot less years than me, um, just lose it because they, they can't deal with the stress of everything they go through. Um, you know, there's people who— there was one girl who did 3 years and she was off. She said, I can't do it anymore. Um, yeah, she hadn't seen—
Nick White (Guest) · 1:02:28
we shouldn't be, we shouldn't be measured in that area by the extraordinary, you know, what is, you know, like, you know, you don't, you know, you don't need to be able to endure years of trauma to be impacted Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:02:45
And that's where it comes back to education, and a lot falls back on the organizations as well.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:02:50
Absolutely, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:02:52
Because instead of— a critical incident is basically something out of the ordinary. And even going to a deceased person who has simply died in their bed is out of the ordinary. So, instead of just— unfortunately, what happens is the car crew comes back in and the supervisor will go, 'Are you guys okay? Do you need the EAP?' Yeah, 9 times out of 10, you're so exhausted and still got it all running in your head, you just go, 'No, I'm—
Nick White (Guest) · 1:03:19
I just want to go and get a coffee.' The last thing you need at that time is the— is to sit down in an office or on a phone call and make a discussion.
John Milham (Host) · 1:03:27
Yeah, so then they just— they know, just click the button that I've asked that, and then it's expected to be okay. But yeah, that's when you— when you get these people who are at home, and they suddenly can't sleep, or they're arguing with their partner, or they're angry with their partner, and it all escalates. And then suddenly that individual's bucket is really full, and they're now getting taken away in handcuffs because they have lost it with their family. And that, that's what you don't want. You don't want it to ever get to that stage. Um, and that's, that's another reason why I created the charity, is to have a safe space where we can have people to turn around and go, you know what, I just need to talk to someone. Yeah. And there's a lot of— there is support out there for emergency services, but it's all based around giving these people a course to get back into work. Yeah.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:04:20
Yeah. That's right.
John Milham (Host) · 1:04:21
It's not what they need. Like, let's fix them first or fix them, get them back to being as good as they wish they could be before they want to get back into work. Work. Yeah, um, you don't want to have someone who is, is not themselves and struggling with their mental health issues going to work in a place where someone's going to say something to them and they're going to snap again, because that hasn't helped anyone. So that's why I wanted to start my charity, because just to have a safe space. And I, look, I'm not a counselor. I've done a mental health first aid course and I've done all these courses in the police I probably take 4 to 5 phone calls a week from members who just want to talk. There's been a couple of people who I've spoken to who have moved to— well, the next stage was going to receive mental health treatment at one of the facilities. I've spoken to one guy and I made— I actually spoke to him as he was walking into— I made him walk to the hospital because he was going to kill himself. Um, you know, so there's a lot that needs to be addressed by all agencies, paid and unpaid. Um, because until we start to realize, until society and the government start to realize that we're only human and it shouldn't take people dying from their own hand because of what they've done to help the society. It shouldn't take that for people to realize we need to look after these people. Um, you need to have things in place that, that look after their mental health. They should be— this is the silly part— if you go to the police and if you're in crash investigations, if you're in, uh, the child sexual abuse section, if you're in one of the forensic crime areas and a couple of others, there's like 5 of them or something, every 3 months you have psychometric testing. But they say because they're, they're the people that are most— yeah, and it's like, hang on, just did 3 disleases in a row and now they're off the road because they need a break. Yeah, everyone should be having this psychometric testing, you know, like you said, oh yeah, you come home and project you know, it can be very confrontational and aggressive and, you know, yeah, and all of that needs to be managed, you know, and it needs to be, it needs to be available to people and they need to have the ability to, to put their hand up without fear of being ostracized. And I won't say the person's name because they're still serving. They were, or they are, a superintendent in charge of a police station up the coast, and he walked into the muster room with officers there. One officer had actually been to see him and saying, listen, can I please have some time off the road? Can I go to like intel or something? Just give me 6 months, I just need to clear my head. And he was a brilliant police officer. He was in the, the Country Tactical Unit. Um, so we'd been around my vintage, seen some stuff, and was very, very hard, old-school police officer.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:07:45
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:07:45
And this superintendent went down and said, in my opinion, there's no such thing as mental health problems. You either do the job or you don't. I don't get— I don't pay you to take time off to sort your mental health out. That's almost verbatim what he said. And the, and the person that told me I'd trust my life with That's still the stigma that's associated from simply saying, 'Can I please have some help?' And he literally asked him to his face, and that's, that's the approach he got. Um, so you can see why people try to bottle it up, um, and try to push it down. And unfortunately, when they bottled up and they push, keep pushing, pushing, pushing, it's going to manifest and come out in aggression, alcoholism, substance abuse, um, and to the point where they go, I don't think I can do this anymore. And I've been to that hole, I've been down the bottom, and it is a dark, lonely place.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:08:48
And I—
John Milham (Host) · 1:08:50
not that I would do it now, but I do understand why people get to that point, and I understand why people do it because they think they are so, um, worthless, that they're a drain on their family, that they don't want them to, to worry about them. And then they think if they do this, then they're out of the picture and their pain, their family's pain will go. But unfortunately, their family's pain is there for the rest of their life.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:09:18
So when you, when you say do this, you mean, uh, you know, serving people and, yeah, with suicide? And of course, we know it's that despair thinking, hopeless, helpless, worthless, that sends you there. And you're not trying to, you know, the research tells us that those blokes aren't trying to kill themselves. They're trying to stop the pain.
John Milham (Host) · 1:09:43
That's right.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:09:43
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:09:44
It's nothing about the, I'm going to do this. And from my policing experience, if someone says they're going to kill themselves, they're not going to do it. That's a cry for attention because we used to go to people's houses when they would go, I'm going to kill myself. I remember rocking up to one guy's house at Warwick Farm. He was, uh, he had mental health issues and a lot of other issues, and he would always be saying he's going to kill himself and trying to hit himself with the beer bottle he was drinking out of. But he was screaming out for help, and it got to the stage where We ended up— I remember being there one night with him and I said, we can't keep coming around here, mate. Like, you need to see your doctor, you need to get your care there. And I said, enough. And I took him up to the hospital and said, he needs different medication because whatever he's on now is not working. He needs to have the therapy, he needs to have the help. And they put him in, um, to the mental health facility. And like, this is years and years and years ago, and probably about a year after We're looking at about 2010-ish, 2011. I saw him about a year after, and he was— had moved in with his girlfriend and was seeking therapy. So, you know, those sort of people who say, 'I'm going to do it,' generally are screaming for help. The ones who do it, they're going to do it without you knowing. And prime example is someone, a good friend of mine, who committed suicide. Nobody knew that he was in a bad way. Had the smile on his face, still laughing and joking. And we come to work the next day and we were told he was gone. Um, and we were like, we literally saw him yesterday. We saw him like 12 hours ago. And it's, it's heartbreaking to know that you could have done something, but you can't always see this because he had— he was He was more senior to me, so he had probably 25 years of experience.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:11:46
It has to be a safe place for someone to reach out for help.
John Milham (Host) · 1:11:50
And it does, it massively has to be a safe place. They have to really feel it.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:11:54
It's not yet safe enough for these guys.
John Milham (Host) · 1:11:57
And that's where I think the education and restructuring the mental health training for serving police Yeah, and, and structuring the whole 'it's okay to not be okay.' Yeah, um, needs to be a priority. It's not about, you know, how many police are on the street. I can tell you right now, there's local police stations around here, commands, that are running on 45% to 50% strength, and that's also impacting those officers turning up. That's impacting their health. Because they're under stress because there's not enough staff. So it's like, it's like the hamster on the wheel. It's just running the same circle and it needs to be addressed. Myself, one of the other directors, and our psychologist, because on our charity we're all clinically backed. We have psychologists, we have lawyers, we have different therapists are available, exercise physiologists, and we were invited to go down to Parliament. In, in July last year, and we spoke to, uh, the Nationals member Pat Conahan. He's a, he's an ex-police officer. He's, uh, up the mid-north coast of Coffs Harbour Way. And we were speaking to some politicians and they were quite shocked at what we were telling them.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:13:18
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:13:18
And like I said at the start, it doesn't— people don't realize what's going on until it impacts them directly.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:13:24
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:13:24
And that's why we're trying to raise as much awareness, as much funds. Like, I'm there's 15 of us going to do the City to Surf in Sydney this year, right? I'm not running it. I stopped running when the army stopped.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:13:36
Yeah, yeah, I'm not— that's not, not an attractive option.
John Milham (Host) · 1:13:38
You see me running, something's chasing me. Um, so we're just going to walk it all together as a big group, and it's a lot of people's first time out, so it'll be a big safe space for us.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:13:48
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:13:48
And we're just going to be there with our shirts on and a flag and just raising awareness.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:13:53
So, so what, so what else, uh, do, do you need to make— take this forward? You know, like, are you looking for a platform? Are you looking to provide some operational impact, or is this policy and advocacy?
John Milham (Host) · 1:14:06
We want to take it to the extent where we can have a proper inquiry into the mental health of emergency and first responders. It needs to be done, and it's not— I don't want it to get to the stage where they go, "Oh, we'll have this and we'll have this and we'll have this." No, let's just do it. Let's not ask the guy who's being an inspector or a superintendent who probably can't even find his gun. We need to actually speak to people on the ground and those who are suffering.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:14:40
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:14:40
Um, and, and it needs to become readily available to the media as well that this is actually happening, and it is a national crisis. And yeah, I got questioned in Parliament when I, I said it's a national epidemic, and they went, well, isn't it a state problem? And I said, well, it is a state problem, but it's also a federal problem because it's a national crisis. And wouldn't you want to be the politicians who stood up and went, you know what, we need to start an investigation into what is happening across the country to our mental health. Why are people killing themselves? Why are these emergency services people not getting the help when they ask for the help? Um, and it needs to be done. And And I, I'm tired of going to funerals of people who have spent their life helping other people and running to danger. I'm tired of going to the funerals of people I know, um, because I look at it and go, that could have been me 4 years ago. Yeah, 3 years ago. Could have been me 10 years ago. Um, and it until someone actually stands up and listens to us, I feel like the hamster on the wheel. Like, I gotta pay out from the police for total permanent disability. I have spent three-quarters of that on what I believe this charity can do. Like, it comes out of my pocket and I've spent it. Like, yeah, okay, I've got a car and new furniture and things like that, but the money from that, instead of being selfish and buying a house or whatever, I've put it towards this to try and save people who don't have a voice. And I used to annoy the shit out of people in the cops, in like, I mean, in senior management.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:16:32
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:16:33
And they would say, you know, if you want an honest answer, don't ask Whitey. If you want fluff, ask someone else. Because I would tell— if they'd go, what do you think of this? I'd go, let's get a coffee, I'll tell you what I think about it.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:16:43
Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 1:16:44
I was more than happy to annoy them in the job, and I am 100% happy to annoy them and question them until they make the changes that are needed. And I will continue to do so because I think if we can save one person, it's worth it.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:16:59
Thank you for sharing what is, um, your wonderful insight, harrowing stories, and, um, true purpose. I thank you for sharing all of that, Nick, today, mate.
John Milham (Host) · 1:17:10
Might I really appreciate— I thank you so much for getting me on and, um, and listening and asking the questions. And it's nice to have a platform where I hope that people can, can, um, hear and resonate with it. And just for anyone listening, if you— we have a closed Facebook group just for people's privacy and, and to have a safe space. So if you are a—
Nick White (Guest) · 1:17:32
are you inviting, um, first responders and emergency services?
John Milham (Host) · 1:17:37
You don't have to be retired. We do serving, retired, or medically discharged. Any first responder. If you have a look at our website, which is bellatorfortitudinem.com, we— it'll show it, it'll tell you we cover everyone. And we also have the Facebook site there as well. There's about 4 or 5 questions to answer to get in. But you come in and it's just a safe space. Like, we do— I do weekly catch-ups. Um, I'm trying to raise funds to, uh, take 25 people across to do the Kokoda Trail in October as a big, big sort of, um, push for their own mental health. Uh, I, out of my own pocket, I've, I've got, um, challenge coins, specific challenge coins made for us. So that's a little, little thing to— you can only get if you're in the group, but it's, it's something very sentimental to have, as you know, I'm a warrior and I call everyone warriors. And you know, we've got our own— I'm with you, mate.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:18:39
Yeah, yeah. And I, yeah, I think it's the spirit of warrior, you know, not giving up, as you said. Yeah, keep going. You know, all of us need to keep going when the darkness hits.
John Milham (Host) · 1:18:49
That's right.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:18:50
You know, you know, and that, that's a warrior's decision, and it's not easy and it shouldn't be done on your own. I'm glad you're there for the— for your— from your— for your teammates, for your tribe. And I appreciate your story, mate, and the work you're doing. Thanks, brother.
John Milham (Host) · 1:19:07
Thank you. Thank you. I will continue to push and I'll still be here. I'll still be annoying someone and trying to change the world.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:19:15
Mate, great stuff. Thanks, mate. And yeah, people reach out and find Nick on the website, which is the W's Uh, Bellator Fortitudinem. Fortitudinem.com.
John Milham (Host) · 1:19:31
If you just, um, yeah, .com. If you just Google, or if you just Google me, Nick White, um, it'll come up with, uh, Bellator's details there. Otherwise, um, I don't know whether you can see that now, the sun's gone down. Look at Bellator, B-E-L-L-A-T-O-R, and then Fortitudinem, F-O-R-T-I-T-U-D-I-N-E-M. UDINEM altogether, um, at Gmail is my email address. If you can type that into Google, it will bring up the website, it'll bring up the Facebook, bring up all that sort of stuff. So sounds perfect. We are a registered non-for-profit charity. Um, on the website it also has our bank account and our PayPal details. So we have DGR status, so it's all tax deductible as well. So if you want to—
Nick White (Guest) · 1:20:22
yeah, coming up to end of financial year, mate.
John Milham (Host) · 1:20:24
So yeah, maybe look at the end of financial year. Any big businesses listening want to throw— you got some coins to throw, let's throw them my way.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:20:33
Yeah, here, here. Mate, fabulous work. Thank you, mate. Look, all the best, and I look forward to talking further. And mate, fight the good fight.
John Milham (Host) · 1:20:43
Cheers.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:20:44
Thanks, John.
John Milham (Host) · 1:20:44
Thank you, everyone. Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Nick White (Guest) · 1:21:13
Podcasts.
John Milham (Host) · 1:21:13
If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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