Serena Low · 62 min
A former Singaporean government lawyer who spent 11 years trapped in a golden cage of expectation discovers that her introversion is not a liability but a superpower, and builds a movement to prove it.
Hear this story
Serena Low spent eleven years as a government lawyer in Singapore, living what looked like success from the outside: prestigious credentials, job security, a clear path forward. But inside, she felt trapped. In a meeting one day, she pictured herself on a treadmill inside a golden cage, running endlessly with no way out. That image shook something loose. She realised she had built a life that was 70 per cent other people's expectations and only 30 per cent her own.
Breaking free meant leaving law, moving to Australia with her family, and spending years in what felt like failure. She tried freelance copywriting, network marketing, business networking events. Nothing stuck. But something kept calling her: the books on self-empowerment she found herself drawn to in bookstores, a coaching program that opened her eyes, the realisation that she was meant to help others find their way, not follow a predetermined script. The turning point came when she attended a traditional networking event and felt completely overwhelmed. Instead of pushing herself to fit in, she asked a simple question: what if there was another way?
Serena started an introvert meetup group on an app called Meetup, expecting nothing. Fourteen strangers showed up on a freezing winter's day in 2017. That small gathering became the seed of her work as the Quiet Warrior, helping introverts recognise that their way of moving through the world is not a flaw to fix but a genuine strength. She learned to bring her corporate skills, systems, structures, processes, into her new work. Today, she runs communities both online and in person, advocating for a world where meetings, offices, and conferences are designed with the same care for quiet people as they are for loud ones. Looking back at every version of herself, Serena says thank you for the courage to ask questions and take the path nobody else said was responsible.
“I had this vision of being on a treadmill inside a golden cage and for some reason I was running running running and I couldn't get off and that really sparked a minor sort of moment of panic like what what is going on? What am I doing with my life?”
“You talk about the golden cage, a beautiful metaphor. Why on earth would you step out of that? Yeah, because it's still a cage.”
“I didn't have any mentors or anybody who was doing the same thing or had done that before. So I was pretty much on my own.”
The hero, today
Serena spent 70 per cent of her early career living up to other people's expectations and only 30 per cent following her own drive, which meant she was running a life that looked good from outside but felt suffocating from within. When Serena could not find a networking group for introverts, she started one herself with no marketing plan and no guarantee anyone would show up, which turned out to be the beginning of her work helping others find connection on their own terms. Introversion is not a weakness or something to fix; it is a way of being that comes with genuine strengths, listening well, thinking deeply, and speaking with intention, and the world needs introverts to stop apologising for their style and start recognising their power. Serena learned that she could bring her corporate skills (systems, structures, processes) into her new work helping introverts, rather than throwing away everything from her old life and starting from scratch. The path to finding her purpose was not linear or neat; it involved trying many things that failed, feeling lost, and only gradually discovering what she was meant to do by staying curious and following what kept calling her attention.
Yes. Serena Low is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Serena spent 70 per cent of her early career living up to other people's expectations and only 30 per cent following her own drive, which meant she was running a life that looked good from outside but felt suffocating from within.
When Serena could not find a networking group for introverts, she started one herself with no marketing plan and no guarantee anyone would show up, which turned out to be the beginning of her work helping others find connection on their own terms.
Introversion is not a weakness or something to fix; it is a way of being that comes with genuine strengths, listening well, thinking deeply, and speaking with intention, and the world needs introverts to stop apologising for their style and start recognising their power.
[Music] Welcome back to Kugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. In this episode, John Milum is joined by Serena Low, who shares her journey from growing up in Singapore, following a planned career in law, and then eventually breaking away to find her own path. Serena describes how she felt trapped by expectations and the need for security. Through moments of reflection and personal growth, she discovered her passion for helping others, especially introverts, to find their strengths and confidence. Serena's story is one of moving from uncertainty to self-acceptance, showing how new opportunities can open up when we give ourselves permission to change. Enjoy this one with Serena Low. [Music] Kuki Heroes fans and uh friends, welcome back to another podcast. Uh and this one is the um stories that matter but stream and uh particularly uh pleased like just personally pleased to talk to somebody who um I have spoken to many times before in some fashion but not for quite some time. And I have to say uh just my opinion. So this is you know like this isn't uh uh a you know sort of note in Wikipedia for your bio but like my personal opinion is that uh my guest today Serena Low may be one of the nicest people I have ever spoken to. So Serena I don't know if that's a qualification but it's certainly um something that I get very excited to chat to. So, thank you so much for joining us on Kugi Heroes. Oh, thank you so much for having me, John. It's great to talk again. Yeah, fabulous. And of course today we're talking you know the Kugi Hero stories that matter um is about stories that offer somebody's own path as a demonstration of uh for others to be inspired or to take useful wisdom or um you know just maybe find out stuff about their own journey. Um, and I I think you're you are an incredible um example of that, right? you like your your journey is particularly um inspiring not necessarily because it's like you know bombs and explosions and sort of you know transformations but because it's so human in its you know in our search for exploring potential and opportunity and our real place in the world and our identity would you know does that um you know do you you know like feel like was a you know a momentous journey a journey of resilience. I would say there have been some points where it felt quite momentous and those were the ones where there was a lot of uncertainty because I had become very attached to having things planned, predictable, stable and secure. And that's the kind of um upbringing I had, the the environment I was in, the conditioning, you know, we we don't really question that. It's all very unconscious. And it was only maybe 11 years into being a lawyer that I had this perhaps an epiphany but it was very troubling at the time because it had implications and there was this concept of you know what happens if plan A is not working out anymore but I don't have a plan B. So the responsible thing to do, you know, when you have a job um in a prestigious profession, when you've studied for it, is to keep going until you retire. But then one day in the middle of um a meeting, the senior asked, "Have you any idea what's ahead of you if you continue on this path?" And finally, I had never thought of it. I had just assumed I would just show up day after day. This is my work. maybe after a few years they'll transfer me somewhere else and I'll just keep going like that until I retire. And then at that point I remember having this vision of being on a treadmill inside a golden cage and for some reason I was running running running and I couldn't get off and that really sparked a minor sort of moment of panic like what what is going on? What am I doing with my life? And what if I keep going like this and I'm forever trapped? And the more I thought about it, the more it became critical for me to do something. But the problem was when you're used to, you know, being inside that golden cage, it looks good on the outside to other people. It feels quite secure. You know what you're doing and you don't have to think about the world outside. So the thought of stepping out of all that into what seemed like nothingness or uncertainty was terrifying because I knew my identity was so bound up with the system. The trappings of success, the external validation, the title, the the location of where I worked, just saying, you know, my name in relation to the organization, that was my whole identity. And I didn't know who I was or what I was meant to be doing outside of that. I never given thought to it. So for the first time in my life, I had to ask myself, what is it I'm here on earth to do besides this thing that is very obvious? What if there is something out there that I'm meant to be doing which I don't yet know about? Do I have the courage to go there? Yeah. Well, it's amazing you say that. So for the for the context, right? Of course, um you grew grew up in Singapore. So and so you you're you're there's um and I love that idea of plan A, right? Was plan A yours, right? Or was it the plan that you were you stepped into? You assumed like you you've got, you know, Singaporean parents are are famous for their focus on on achievement. And I'm guessing, you know, given your history, that's that was similar. And of course, you're stepping into a legal profession. You trained as a lawyer and um and you're working for the government, right? These are all very prestigious, but also very secure and maybe not necessarily something you would be passionate about. So, was this was plan A yours or would were you meeting other people's needs? Very good question, John. I think 70% of it was expectations and living up to those expectations. 30% of it was my my own. I did actually pick law school over arts but again because of pragmatic reasons and the prestige of it. And the other thing was there was also a personal element a sense of personal autonomy because I had come from a single parent home and I had seen my parents' marriage fall apart. So I was very keen to understand from a legal perspective what it's like what family law is and so on. And so that's why I also went down that path. Wow. That's um you know my Angelo I often quote you know if you want to find your purpose look to your wound. And like what an what a kind of elegant solution for a young person unconsciously to go wow if we were better equipped legally that whole experience I might have had more control or more understanding around. Do you feel like that you know that um the challenges of being a part of a a family that breaks down and you being somebody you know organized and and controlled and and introverted like which we'll get to soon that was that 30% right oh my goodness I can regain control by legislating the world wow maybe I wasn't thinking about legislating the world. But definitely law would have given me the structure, the safety, the a container of sorts that I could explore freely and figure out what the rules were and maybe for someone else I would be able to help them navigate that system. You talk about the golden cage, a beautiful metaphor. Why on earth would you step out of that? Yeah, because it's still a cage. And I realized after all the all the years of, you know, personal development, work, and reflection that what I really wanted was freedom because it was the very opposite of what I had. And just being attached to this idea of certainty, security, that was the opposite. Freedom was almost something considered a luxury, not something you aspire to. You aspire to success. You aspire to a name, you know, social standing. You don't aspire to freedom. Freedom is for for people who don't have to live up to expectations. Perhaps it it was just not a concept I grew up with. Do do you think freedom was irresponsible in some ways from coming from your world view? Yes, definitely. I think there was a sense that freedom is is for people who are not thinking hard enough or not being responsible, not mature enough, people who are reckless, people who haven't considered all the implications. So yes, there was that negative connotation. Wow. So I I I love the idea of you um you know facing the big questions while you know while you look around and recognize that what what you thought was your was your solution is now a cage. What were you um what do you think was triggering what would what um internal motivation was being triggered by that feeling of being caged? I think I wanted to prove to myself that I could survive outside of the system and outside of the cage, outside of other people's expectations. I believed that there was a part of me that was bigger than all these things that I had been trying to achieve based on what was the norm, what was expected, what was respectable. Because in in our Asian culture, you have to take into account how your parents, your your community, your family think of, you know, and how they look to other people. So, it's very important not to make your family lose face, right? You don't do things that would bring shame or embarrassment to the family by going off the beaten path. So, I had to be very careful there and I I didn't have any language around that. I didn't have any mentors or anybody who was doing the same thing or had done that before. So I was pretty much on my own. That's beautiful. Um there so there you there you are. And to be honest like it's a pretty good wicket, right? You know Singapore is a great place to be part of that sort of uh mainstream you know corporate business government you know competency professional world. um the risk would have started with something. So you recognize that you know the question you know invited a a a reflection. When did you know it was more important for you as the next person the future Serena to step out of that cage to to break through? I think that moment in the meeting with that vision was the beginning of it. So that was so early in the in the contemplation. It was it was perhaps it had been going on quietly in the background for a little while. I know that after I took a year off um to stay home with my older child, it gave me the opportunity to clear my head just being away from the system, away from the workplace. I had finally some time to breathe and to think. And then when this happened, I had just gone back to work for two years. And so all this was happening quietly in the background and and pretty unconsciously. But I noticed also that every time I went out to the bookstore, I would be looking in the personal development section. Certain titles would just keep popping up at me and they were all to do with self-empowerment. they were to do with life purpose. Steven Cvy's books um the eighth habit you know you know that something is pointing you in a certain direction and it's asking you is inviting you to make a decision about your life but it's also terrifying because you have to carve that own path. There isn't a path already pre-laid for you and there's no one to tell you this is the right path this is the safe path. In fact you are making it up as you go and I had no clue how to do that. I I love the idea. Someone once told me about their obsession with shelf development. I realized that I was a guilty of having a bookshelf full of uh those personal development things and when I look look at them I can trace the you know the my interests in sort of growing and my challenges at the time to meet right so whether it's you know connection communication whether it's you know procrastination whatever um so I can completely understand that when you when you um you talk about creating your own path, right? Um, you know, being inspired by the, you know, the gurus that we're sort of seeking in the bookshelf, um, doesn't help on a practical term. How did you begin to solve those those practical challenges of disentangling the expectations of everyone you were you you were satisfying and then start to pay attention to your own goals and and and vision. Such a good question, John. There was no clear path. It was extremely messy, very nonlinear. Um, if I had, you know, if I could draw it on a piece of paper, it's probably like all over the place. It doesn't look like it's making progress at all. Most of the time, it was like I'm starting from zero and I know I no idea which direction I'm going. I'm not sure where forward is or what the next step is. So, I tried everything. I remember I tried freelance copywriting. Um, I joined BNI. I had no clue how to stand up and make an elevator pitch. I never made a pitch in my entire life. I had no network, no one to ask for advice, right? Um, what else did I do? I even tried network marketing for a very short time. That failed spectacularly because I had no clue how to sell. I was so uncomfortable just putting myself out there to ask because I was always the one that dispenses advice, knows the answers, solves the problems, but suddenly I'm the one asking other people, hey, come and do this thing with me. And I realized I've been doing it the wrong way around because I I always needed to have the information first and then I solve the problem at a very cognitive level. But life is so much more than just the head. That's um that's amazing. That's so true. And I had a vision of this big pond of of failure which I you know like I I don't succeed until I've swam you know well and truly all you know through the pond of failure and and challenge. Right. So um but of course you you are um a an an extremely sort of capable and organized and talented person. So, when did the when did you start to feel like there was um something in this that that you know you could not just swim through that pond but then start to really you know jump out and and and make it uh something significant. I would say it was when I signed up to a live coaching program and I did this for myself, not to be a coach, but to coach myself and get my own answers. And I remember sitting in the first month's worth of face-toface workshops and thinking, "Oh my goodness, how have I gone through life without knowing any of this stuff?" Yeah. And now suddenly my eyes are open. My brain is, you know, alive. I feel maybe I think I'm on on track to I'm on track to something here. There's something magical happening here. Something's opening up and I don't know what that is. But that was the beginning of that path of helping me figure out my purpose. That's uh Yeah, I love that idea. I had similar experience. It's interesting though because just as you start to you said you were seeking experiences and you know exploring new knowledge right um at that time clearly you thought well my life isn't challenging enough I better move countries so you know I love that you were testing adding that complexity to your world to develop on it right what do we say you know like fail often fail frequently right so um you know fail spectacularly but you know the the challenge of become of moving to Australia must have been, you know, was this an example of where you were going or was this like saying, "Oh, let's just throw the model away." It was actually very much part of that whole transition. So, I I basically compacted two major life transitions into two years. So, first I quit law and I was trying to figure out what to do and then we decided to move to Australia. So all that happened very quickly and so of course you know when I've just landed in Australia I am again starting from zero but hey this time I've done it before. I just did it the year before so I have some idea of what that feels like to be the outsider to be the newbie to be the clueless one and this time because I I was um about to give birth to my second child um it made it it was just more sensible to spend some time at home you know for a few years being the stay-home mom. So that also bought me some time to figure things out and acclimatize to my new culture, new environment, and figure out how things work in Australia. Um, and when you get when you'll have to let me know how that happens, right? I'm still I think still trying to work it out myself, right? But um, so I am so glad you did, right? Because you're in our world now and we get to talk to you. But the interesting thing is do you think you had like there's so many challenges you're throwing up in front of you and challenges that you're walking into, right? It's not like life is beating you up, you know, like in some ways you're inviting that level of disruption. You've got relationships around you that are important to you. How how do you think they went when you just invite saying, "Hey, by the way, everything you know about me, I'm just changing I I don't think I ever um gave anyone any heads up like that. But over time, that's a bit of the process we sometimes forget to do, right? Yes. Yes. I actually, now that you mentioned it, I completely forgot to notify anyone and everyone that I was embarking on this massive personal development thing. Mind you, I don't think anybody would have understood it anyway because my circles were you know all the similar kind of values at that time before my transformation right so still on the path of the plan A still you know progress linear so if I had tried to say that to anybody nobody would have understood and till today I don't think my husband entirely understands what it is I do right yes and I and I don't try to explain it either because It's just really difficult to conocize. Yeah. Do you do coming I've always fascinated for me it was always there was a level of I'm in adopting a language that I wasn't completely comfortable using right you know like because of my own you know corporate sort of you know like this isn't real right do you like the idea of heart-based connections and you know being inspired from you know both the unconscious and the conscious right and working um outside, you know, maybe spiritually or whatever. Did did you embrace that straight away? Cuz your background is particularly cognitive. You're very right. So, how did you go about, you know, really embracing the other that comes with this sort of often comes with this personal development journey? I think the further I went into it, the more I realized this actually sits better with me than I thought it would. I'm really surprised. Something very unusual is happening. It's almost like you're going over to the dark side and you don't dare tell anybody. from an accountant's point of view or or a lawyer's point of view that that's probably the you know what they see in some ways, right? Yes. Yes. So, it's it was a good thing I didn't mention it to anybody what I was doing. So, when you when you uh learn things around personal development, you know, doing a coaching course and so on, you're you're you know, you both visibly transform. you, you know, leave legal, you focus on other jobs, right? But you're what happens inside is you're transformed as well. You know, was that something that you noted? Were you aware of that transformation? And what you know, how did that manifest? Did you become a better person? Did you become a a happier person? What what's in it for us? What's in it for us? I think at the start it was a bit confusing. It was like I had a double identity. So on the outside I was still a regular person with very mainstream ideas but then I became less and less mainstream and then it became more and more lonely because it's not easy to find people who resonate on the same level who are interested in the same things especially when they are not the things that most people talk about. It's not on the news. It's not on social media. It's not what people talk about when they're picking up their kids from school. And so I started to feel less and less like I belonged and that I needed to find my own new community, create my own tribe and go where it was easier to have those conversations. Yeah, that's um yeah, really insightful. Creating your tribe. When did you step into the sense of oh this is something I can do. I have the I have the the agency and the responsibility to bring others into my world, right? and act as someone who is you know potentially leading serving you know I think it started quite early because I remember our trainer in the coaching program encouraged us those of us who felt we liked this this new modality and we could go somewhere with it to go out and actually start spreading the word doing the work so I remember a period of I got very enthused and I was talking to my you know fellow school parents and running workshops in communities centers without a clue as to how to do any marketing, any promotion, no networks whatsoever. Just sheer enthusiasm and that was the beginning of it. And so lots of mistakes along the way, but just that passion to share this new knowledge because to me it was how how is it that this is not more widely available. Yeah. Why is it that not more people are talking about this? This is lifechanging. This changes the way I parent. this changes the way I see myself. This changes the way I interact with other people and how I move in the world. So it's why aren't we talking about this stuff more? So out of that enthusiasm that's that's when I started doing my own version of spreading it. Wow. That's um that's brilliant. The idea um that uh when you you know like it's interesting you mentioned the commercial challenge, right? How do you turn this into a way of life that is sustaining right but also there's other the aspect right is there a calling is there a mission in that like a sense of purpose you know how do you find that as well and then honor both of those things I think the honor honoring the purpose was much easier it was keeping it sustainable that wasn't because from a practical point of view you know if you have no clue clue how to run a business. If you have no let's say exposure to entrepreneurship in your own family. So there are no role models. If you also are someone who feels very uncomfortable about putting yourself out there to go and do the networking, the small talk, the presentations, the sales, no clue, and you're nervous about all that stuff. So you keep avoiding it. That really doesn't help as well. So actually there's a whole set of other skills that we need to acquire alongside the transformation to make it sustainable. Yeah. Absolutely. And the idea that um you know I walked away from that whole you know cognitive business commercial corporate view but we have to come to some accommodation with it to be sustainable. Is that like a you know a a dissonance or is that something that we can actually embrace as part of our going forward in service? I think there's so many ways you can embrace that. There is um I I've learned that whatever I did in my previous career, a lot of it is transferable. A lot of it is useful. So don't throw everything away all at once just because you're going on this new venture. look at whatever you've learned, whatever you've um experienced and pick out all those things that are still useful. You know, for instance, the structures, the systems, the processes. When you're trying to do everything yourself, you wear all the hats. You are your own marketing agent. You are your own the CEO, the finance officer and everything. But when you think back to being part of a corporate, they had systems and professor uh processes for everything, right? Everything's documented. Everything is done according this is how it's done, step one, step two, and so on. And so I had to learn the hard way to embrace that thing that I had conveniently, you know, shoved aside thinking, "Oh, it's no longer relevant to me." I have to embrace that as part of my new venture, too, which is um like there's so much insight you've offered around that whole journey to to position yourself, if you will, in your new life. Tell me about your new life, right? you you you embraced eventually came to this point where you realized that there was a requirement your experience as a introvert right was something that you needed to help others with as well. So the quiet warrior which I love by the way which is your um you know your website and and and you know tag how did you know was being an introvert something you recognized early on? Was that always, oh, that's me, or was this a revelation? I think I always knew it. I knew that I was the quiet achiever because it's it was in all my school reports that I was conscientious, but I needed to participate more in class discussions, that I was a good worker, but um not very confident, you know, a bit shy and all that. And it's just consistent. And I think the the thing that's got me looking in this direction from a from a business perspective was attending all these traditional networking events, business networking events where they tell you you need to work the room, you need to hand out your business cards, you need to stand up, do your 30-cond elevator pitch, and all kinds of things that just sat really uncomfortably with me as an introvert. So I remember walking into this one function room, hovering on the threshold, just looking in like 60 to 80 people, loud music, everyone in little little knots. They all seem to know each other. Where do I insert myself? Who do I talk to? Should I just stand here in the corner and just, you know, take care of my drink and just observe and and go and or maybe I should just go right now. just turn around and go home because it was just so overwhelming. For one solid year, I took the the prevailing marketing advice to put yourself out there and did all that stuff, right? Driving sometimes one and a half hours across town to attend activities on the other side. And then I thought, hang on, why why am I doing this to myself? There has to be a better way to network. Surely there must be alternatives. Somebody must have thought of another way to network for people who are quiet. So I went looking online for groups, didn't find anything, but I did stumble upon this app called Meetup and it looked very interesting because it connects people based on common interests. So if you like hiking, there's a hiking group for you. And I thought, well, I wonder if there is anything for introverts and there wasn't. And I thought, I wonder if I could start something. Would anybody come? Maybe they're all introverted. They won't show up either. And then I had this other idea. I think at the time you needed 50 people to start a group. That was the the requirement. And I thought, well, if I don't get the 50 people, the group doesn't start and nobody needs to know about it. So that felt very safe, right? So let's go ahead and start that group anyway. That's the introverts idea of advertising, right? Yeah. No one knows about it. We're successful, right? That's right. And so we started and on a winter's day um this was what 2017 I think. And I thought, well, let's see if anybody comes up. And I So I was sitting by myself in this upper level of this Italian restaurant. And 14 people, complete strangers showed up when it was so cold outside. It was like beanie and gloves kind of a day. And I just looked around the table at all these people and I was just amazed. So I thought, well, here we are. We're on to something. Let's let's find out. Let's just keep going. And so that went on and then 2020 came around and the lockdowns happened and so we had to stop all the inerson activities and I thought now what next? And so I thought oh well we're all on Zoom so let's pivot and do something else. So we yeah so that's when I started the the two communities introvert focused again but this time to do with social confidence social connection and so those groups are still going till today. So now we have a hybrid, you know, Zoom sessions as well as in-person sessions around Melbourne CBD and that really helped build the community and I realized there was such a great need that introverts may be quiet, they may be shy, maybe anxious some of us, but they also want connection that feels right and that feels safe. Yeah, I I love the the task, you know, in another in another aspect. I I am I facilitate an online men's anxiety support group which I think is really the definition of optimism right you know oh I I want to facilitate a group to bring people in who are socially anxious right so and I I think you know you've just embraced this you know a similar level of unlikeliness right in that you know oh let's get this really you know a a external you connection session for at least from my perspective it seems unlikely. Uh you know we bring a whole bunch of introverts together and create a connection like you said oh well if it doesn't work you know that's you know that's okay. when it did work. What did you were you surprised? Was this about something recognizing that there was a more introvert, you know, actually has a, you know, um is more human than sort of, you know, label or it's not an it's not a problem. It's actually just an aspect of of of life and just needed some sorting out. Is that where we're going with this? Yes. Yes. There's a so much more awareness now than say 10 years ago. A lot more people are in this space. A lot more awareness of what an introvert is and that it's not a weakness. It's not it's even the label itself has restrictions because sometimes we we fixate on the label and we think oh well you know I'm an introvert. I can't do public speaking. I can't go to networking events and so on. So that's why I say you yes yes yes we are introverts and we are also capable of doing all the things that we need to do when the occasion arises you know when that's why it's called the quiet warrior we start off as quiet achievers but sometimes it's not about us sometimes we need to speak up because somebody needs us to advocate for them somebody needs us to throw some light on something and we happen to be in a uniquely powerful position to do that because the introverts strengths right the quiet strength of listening really well, being able to articulate a position after considering all the factors and being deep thinkers, being very reflective and introspective and bringing in that level of detail and that um attentiveness to execution. So many so many fantastic strengths. So I say introverts, you know, we underestimate ourselves a lot and we undervalue ourselves. So instead of saying I can't, let's acquire those skills because a lot of this is learnable and that's the good news. So it's not something that I'm born this way, I can't do this stuff. No, it's actually having that growth mindset. I'm born this way. It just means I have a preference for doing things in a certain way and I can create the conditions that support me to do things well, that support me to flourish. Wow. Um when an introvert flourishes you know is it something like you know you know often people who do you know we reward extraordin you know extraordinary activity we often um are thinking you know we're a culture that focuses on exceptionalism right do you think introverts are doing something exceptional when they sort of show up uh you know, or is it actually uh introvertedness, you know, is just an aspect of of living that isn't, you know, that can offer a range of um opportunities and, you know, it's a way we see the world rather than, you know, be held back by it. I think introversion is one way to see the world and the only reason it's perceived as a weakness or as something to be fixed is because we are functioning in a mostly extrovert biased culture where there is a lot of emphasis on being outgoing or loud or dominating conversations or you know very almost a pushing kind of energy whereas the introvert is more subtle more discreet more you know the energy is just quiet it's calm you don't notice it but you do feel the impact when an introvert speaks up in a room after having considered you know listened to everybody else and then they say something what I've noticed is it's very impactful people actually stop and listen and they realize that person has just said something really profound or really wise or you know just summed it up really well listen to everybody's perspectives and so on but the introvert chooses not to speak just for the sake of speaking so It's usually after some consideration, some time processing all the thoughts and filtering and taking into consideration or you know reading the room and so on and then they drop that thing and that's one of their superpowers. That's amazing. When I think back to what you were saying when you the picture of you, you know, going to that event and and go and being overwhelmed by all of this activity in the room that is, as you said, has this e extrovert bias. you know the the you know the aggressive networking of this. How did you now you know go into that and own and be effective in that room? What you know because that was their way and you found another and now you're sharing and helping people find that also. What is that other in that same vision? You now walk into that same room. What's different? What's different is the energy that you bring to the room. So you need to be you start off prepping yourself and allow for your battery to be drained for the next let's say two hours and be very conscious of it. Be very mindful know that it is happening and don't freak out because of it because that's exactly how the introverts wired. When we are with people our social battery goes down whereas the extrovert it goes up. Yeah. So know your own battery. So I tell my introverted um community members I have a battery of two hours. At the end of 2 hours, I will be completely exhausted. I will have no words left. So, if you need to leave before the activity is done, simply stand up and say, "I need to go now." And there's no need for any long explanations or apologies or anything like that. So, now they are used to it. They've gotten very good at saying at the 90-minute mark, you know, thank you for organizing. This was a great activity, but I have to go now. And so, it's giving them back that power, that agency. So you don't feel that I have to suffer through this thing for the next three hours and hang out with all these people and and feel oppressed, right? So you take charge of the conversations that you have. So I always say set yourself some really small goals, very micro goals that feel manageable. So if today you you decide to talk to just one person, have one quality conversation, maybe next time you can have two, and another time you can have three. Just keep an eye on that battery. Notice your own state and then do it from that empowered place instead of oh what shall I do now? What shall I do now? So you go in there with a a sense of purpose and focus on your strength. So if you only like talking to people one-on-one or one in small groups you can create that for yourself. You can also bring other people together do that facilitator thing because introverts are very good at that the connecting part. So they don't have to dominate the conversation. They are happy to just listen but they listen well and they listen in a way that feels inclusive and feels safe for other people. So those are other ways to contribute to the networking environment as well. It's not just about me going and talking. Absolutely. um you in some ways there I'm I'm wondering like it feels like introvertist to introverted people are battling the stigma and the prevailing thought you know thought the prevailing you know ideology of networking and and connection right and that stigma you know is is a barrier to you know to expressing and being confident and setting your own boundaries and infor forcing them. Do is that what we're doing? And is it part of a, you know, a sort of emancipated introvert to go, hey, I'm an introvert. Stop treating me badly. Is that like that kind of advocacy? Is that part of our j of of our journey? I think part of what it means to be a quiet warrior is indeed yes to have those boundaries, but also the quality of that self-acceptance. So I'm coming from a place of there's nothing wrong with me. I'm just have a different style of communication and my energy runs out. I so I know I need to protect and preserve and maintain my energy by doing certain things and avoid doing certain things. So I advocate for myself but not from a place of don't treat me badly. More like um this is how I communicate. This is how I like to hang out. Let's do this. How about this? Have you ever thought of this? And I think the the energy makes a lot of difference because when we are self-accepting, we come from that empowered place and peaceful place. We don't feel an urgency to have other people understand us completely. We are okay if there is a mismatch. We are just more aware of it and we have some tools around it, some language around it and we don't feel a need to fit in with everybody or to talk to the whole room or to you know collect a lot of business cards. What we want is quality not quantity. So there are other ways to follow up after an event you know you can always send someone a LinkedIn connection request you know and then take it offline from there and so there's so many creative ways. So just notice what works for you and and just experiment with different things. Nice. The um you know the the society tends to you know punish variation or um differences uh through shame and you know sort of exclusion or you know pathization. They were always trying to tell us we're broken in some way. Um, and of course that often contributes or goes on to some form of me uh mental distress as well. So anxiety and depression, situational anxiety often comes from feeling like you're not good enough or you're not meeting the needs of society. Is introversion, you know, been part of that stigma, part of that exclusion. And has that, you know, is there an issue with helping people come out of feeling that they're pathologically broken, but they're not really? Is that your job, you know, almost like your mission to to to restore people's sense of being whole? Yes, there is some intersectionality there. I have spoken and worked with a lot of introverts and when we explore more deeply, they start to connect the dots for themselves to things that happened in childhood, things that certain authority figures said to them when they were at a very impressionable age. Sometimes just throwaway statements that adults make without thinking, right? And we are all, you know, we've all done that. And some with some children maybe if they are particularly sensitive or the tone in which it was said or they needed something and they didn't receive it some of these things become memories that become intertwined with their identity. And so what you said about you know not feeling good enough that could actually have a historical root cause and when you go and look at that root cause when you sit with it listen to it make peace with it and then integrate you know whatever learnings come up from there and you take that then you are able to move on with your life without still dragging that emotional baggage back from when a parent said something unkind when you were 7 years old. And all of us have some variation of that happening but most of us are not conscious of it. So when we go back far enough and join those dots we realize yes there is actually some work I need to do now that I'm 40 50 whatever. And when when that thing is resolved it's not that it changes you and you become an extrovert. It's more to do with self-acceptance self-compassion a kind of healing and letting go and reconciliation. you can finally accept that that is also part of me. There's nothing broken about it. It's just that that particular part didn't receive the nurturing or the love that it needed at that age. And now it's okay because I've grown up. I'm mature. I can handle this thing now. And come with me. Come with me and let's face this thing together. Yeah. Yeah. I I love that invitation. Come with me. It's a a personal invitation to the to yourself, right? So, which is the definition of growth, right? You like and our maybe maybe our mission. Um, do you think uh you know like you mentioned you know often it goes back to you know you know we can trace or things from childhood and trauma pop up occasionally. You think it's nurture or nature that you are introverted? I think it's both. I've interviewed people who started off as extroverts and then somebody said something at a very crucial time in their development and then they suddenly became introverted and I've also heard introverts say that with time they've learned to become more extroverted. So I think there's a lot of agency involved actually it's a spectrum that we move up and down and the good thing is it's flexible so we can adapt to whatever the environment requires us to do. That's the amazing thing about being a human. So I think I see that as you know not like I'm an introvert so I'm always an introvert. Sometimes I I can be social when the situation requires but then I need to go and recharge and the extroverted person might be able to say you know I I value that my introverted friend has this recharge time. Maybe I can also practice being a bit more mindful and listening more and having some quiet time for myself and so we can learn from each other. Beautiful. A as you you know when we think about that you mentioned uh your journey gave you new insights about say parenting right so you know as a as a as a mother um and an introvert and a introvert advocate and and you know ser um advisor. Do you see things in your children that you know are you know that may have been something you struggled with yourself and then are you more equipped now to help them through that? Slightly more equipped now to help them. It's very much a two-way process. They also have to be willing to take on that responsibility of changing whatever needs to be changed. But yes, definitely from a parenting point of view, recognizing where I am possibly perpetuating things that I grew up with that was my default um way of responding certain things that I might say and then I have to catch myself very quickly. Oh, I'm about to become like my mother or something, you know, and be very conscious of that. Okay, this is coming out of that trauma response from way back, right? Let's interrupt that pattern. What can I do differently? how can I connect even more deeply and openly with my child and I happen to have two introverted children as well. So we spend a lot of um time having pretty deep conversations but again on their terms because they are a lot older now. When they let me in we can have a great conversation and you know when it's not I don't have to take it personally. It's just just give it time let it flourish at its own pace. Oh that's beautiful. Do you um uh do you feel like it's um a good thing or a bad thing to be introverted? It's neither a good thing nor a bad thing. It's only seen as bad because the system or the culture has told us that, you know, you need to be louder. You need you you're too quiet. You need to speak up more. You need to come out of your shell. You need to come out of your comfort zone. But nobody's telling the extroverts to make that comfort zone possible or to widen the space around the table or to make room for quieter voices to speak up and not always have the same few loud people dominating the conversation who talk without thinking. Absolutely. I I I often wonder one of my particular challenges in life right through my neurodeiversity is um turning up on time to anything right and um u and there's a ve huge response to that people you know will be very aggressive about someone who is late right so they'll you know lack of respect lack of attention to detail right it's like a character flaw and I always think what one day it happened. I was coming there and like this isn't an excuse. It doesn't happen every day. I'm late quite happily on my own. Um but um you know I remember being held up by somebody in need, right? they were having a they had an accident and they were hurt and I needed to you know I was connecting with them and you know caring for them until we could sort of organize more support and I turned up late and u you know it was a typical right I just can't work with someone you know who's always late type thing and I'm thinking there that the the need for them to feel, you know, respected would have meant, you know, for me to satisfy that would have meant actually leaving somebody to be unhelped, right? you know if it will and I often think of like are we missing the power agency contribution of introverted people because of that level of you know sort of bias right of of focus away from what they bring and on how they you know bother me. Good question. I think that applies to all situations where we see somebody as different from us. This is not how I would do things. So it becomes very much focused on what I want, how I do things. And I think the only antidote to that is actually to go the other way and be curious. I wonder why they're late. They're not usually late. I wonder if something happened. Maybe there was an accident. Maybe there's there's an emergency. and just opening our minds to the possibility that it's not just about us. It's not just about our standards. It's not that people want to offend us or make things difficult for us. It's really nothing to do with us. Each one of us is going out about our lives the best we can. And we none of us knows what is going on in somebody else's mind at this point or what they're going through unless you actually sit down and have that conversation. And that conversation is not going to happen unless there is that trust and that safety. So true. So true. So be curious. That's the antidote to to the shame of introversion. So what like we we've talked you know perhaps say with a professional frame as well as you know your journey you know from an external point of view. What's the like if I could touch back on to you um you yourself you yourself Serena what's the favorite thing about you that you like to h experience in the world I love how I can look at something and notice details notice what's incredible notice people read you know their body language, their tone, and just observe all the things that go on where there's a group of people and everyone's in their own head, in their own world, and just picking up little things that help me understand them better or help me get a sense of what's happening in this room. And then having the ability to articulate at the right time in the right way something that is helpful and productive especially in a group meeting where there's all these different personalities you know maybe conflicting ideas about this is right that is wrong this is how to do it and then just being able to calmly insert my voice at the right time and bring some clarity and then watching how everybody responds to that. So I find that a fun thing to do. So that's fun to you know to be present and to be powerful in that moment. Is there like So fun is is that it like contentment or is that joy? It's both I guess it's joyful for me. It's also a sense of playfulness I guess because it's so different from what people expect you to do. They think uh the introvert is just sitting there passively not doing anything, not really contributing. They actually what's happening is all the the heavy lifting is going on inside the head of the introvert. And when they're finally ready to say something, just be ready. Get ready. Something big is coming. I love that. Wow. So um when you um when you look at that that sort of fun and the sense of reward you have from what you're doing now and how you've used your journey to inform others, what are you um what are you looking forward to seeing into the future? You know, how will that manifest and and what would what else are you looking forward to to having um pop up into the future in your future? Well, I look forward to a day when introverts don't have to explain themselves, explain what they are or why they're different, where it becomes a natural in running meetings or hosting events to consider the needs of all the different groups. So, we could do a seating plan for life, right? You know, so the these are the noisy ones, these are the quiet but powerful, these are the people who need in the middle that believe they're the most important, right? Is that you know is that everyone would normally making room that's right making room for everyone to find their place and to to be comfortable and to be safe. So not just open plan offices for everyone. And when you're hosting a conference not just loud music and terrible acoustics where you know everything echoes and you you have to shout to be heard but also having those um quiet nukes. I it's just that level of thoughtfulness and attentiveness to detail it makes a huge difference. So across the world right we accommodate the quiet as well as the noisy. Yes. Well, there are countries where people are predominantly quiet or introverted and so the introvert would really enjoy being in those countries like you know Japan or Finland or something where you there the culture is you don't talk you you don't just make small talk you sort of keep to yourself and it's very very normal instead of let's say the quiet carriage on a Veline train. Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually, there's a a a business idea, introverted travel agency, right? We only go to countries that are quiet. Yeah, we'll have to talk more about that, John. Yeah, absolutely. Um and and just to to round up your your mission, right? You like when you thought about how you were in the golden cage and you you realized that you have to break out um set aside all of the work you'd done to that point and then you you know luckily be able to bring those skills later into doing what you're doing now. How how do you like and so that you know journey has really informed us and inspired us along the day today and and with your other work where where you are now. Are you pleased with what's happened where you are who you are and where um you are both sitting and going. Is that is that something you're you're accepting or is it something that's like work in I guess we're all work in progress but we're all work in progress and uh the change happens at different speeds in different seasons but I would say yes I'm very pleased I'm quite proud of myself because even a year ago compared to where I am currently and how I feel about things currently that's very different a lot can happen in a year and how I was 10 years ago that's again it's a very different version of me when we first collaborated ated on the book. Yeah, that's so true. And of course, I I I I went back um and I should tell everybody it's a it's a really cool book. Um a hero within, right? You know, stories of um of people that uh you connected with and were, you know, you felt had something to offer. And you did a great job on that. And of course, uh I love the blurb. you get to say you are an Amazon best-selling author which is so uh wonderful um and I would recommend that people read that not and I I'm and beautifully you know gratefully I I note I'm in it um I went back and read my chapter right so like a little bit of ego dripping out but um I was really pleased in two ways right the first was um I was pleased I I started a journey that you've kind of described your place. side, you know, but differently. You were so much cleverer because, you know, you you create you had created the momentum for courage and change from your life, right? I was forced into it by the universe, but um I'm so grateful for the worst things that happened to me, right? And the second thing that I got from that story was um you know sure I I didn't know a lot then but I you know I loved the I was I was pleased for you know for that John right his heart was in the right place right and I felt uh that that was an important process that I could um reflect and forgive me on that at that early point of my journey is that Um, when you look back at all of the things you had to do, is there a reflection? Do you smile on that reflection? I do. I do. I I love the exercise of, you know, sitting with that younger version of myself and just telling that version of myself that I'm so proud of you. I'm so glad you persisted that you or you fought back or you asked questions or you did this difficult thing or you went on this partic you know this path that nobody else would say was the responsible thing to do at the time. I'm so glad you had the courage. Thank you. And we can say that to all versions all past versions of ourselves because they are what have contributed and shaped you know the the who we are today in this minute having this interview. every version of us before this has had its purpose. Wow, a brilliant thought and um from a brilliant lady. Thank you so much for uh the chance to chat again. It's been an absolute joy and I'm absolut I'm also convinced that uh you the insight and um wisdom you've offered today will get out there and make a difference in someone's world. So, thank you Serena Lo for your uh work and for joining us today on Kugi Hero Stories that matter. Thank you for listening to this episode of Kugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lily for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support KugiHeroes and the stories we share, head to kugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a taxdeductible donation. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.
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Serena learned that she could bring her corporate skills (systems, structures, processes) into her new work helping introverts, rather than throwing away everything from her old life and starting from scratch.
This conversation includes the golden cage, plan a was never hers, the bookshelf speaks, failure as the path, the coaching program cracks something open and two major transitions in two years.
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