Shannon Miller
Shannon Miller shows why engaging men as human beings, not demons, is the only approach that changes violent behavior.
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Shannon Miller spent five years as a butcher before joining the military looking for a challenge. What he found instead was male behavior toward women far worse than anything he'd witnessed before. The real breaking point came when four soldiers from his unit died in drink-driving crashes within two weeks, all dealing with untreated trauma from deployment. That loss shifted something in him. He left the army and moved into work supporting young people struggling with substance use, then spent ten years in child protection with adolescents in state care. Working case after case, a pattern emerged: family violence sat behind nearly everything, whether current or historical.
Shannon's work led him to a difficult realization. He read about a death row inmate whose childhood taught him violence was a normal problem-solving tool, and it made him think about his own son, who would barely pick up a toy gun because it had never been presented to him as an option. That insight changed how he thinks about perpetrators of violence. Most men who use violence are themselves victims of violence, but once they become the perpetrator, their trauma gets erased. Shannon argues the only thing that changes behavior is engaging with men as human beings, not shaming them or locking them away without support.
He pushes back on the idea that masculinity itself is toxic, pointing instead to social media personalities exploiting gender tensions. When he visits schools and sporting clubs, he sees young men with far better values toward women than existed in the 1990s. His own son is growing up in a household where gender equality is the norm, and Shannon expects him to be driven by moral values in whatever he does. The work ahead is not about harsher sentences or more custody. It is about understanding the men behind the violence, and building community support that actually changes behavior.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses domestic & family violence, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • 1800RESPECT (family, domestic & sexual violence): 1800 737 732 · 1800respect.org.au
“There's almost no perpetrators of violence who are male that we come across that don't have a history of violence against them. Childhood trauma, family breakdown.”
“Behavior is a choice, but you only have a choice of the decisions that you know how to make.”
“Engagement with men. That's the absolute number one, is engaging with men and treating them as a human being and not on their behavior.”
The hero, today
Family violence has existed for 50,000 years, but what's changed is visibility and services; more eyes on the problem doesn't mean the problem is getting worse, it means we're finally tracking it properly. Behavior is a choice, but you can only choose from the decisions you know how to make, and most men who use violence learned violence as a problem-solving tool in childhood. Young men today have better attitudes toward women than they did in the 1990s, and we can see this shift in schools and communities if we look for it instead of amplifying the negative stories on social media. Engagement with men as human beings, not as perpetrators to be shamed, is the only thing that changes behavior; custody without support sends them back out with no job, no home, and more risk of harm. The whole community, including politicians and role models, needs to teach the same message about respect and equality, because families and services can't do it alone.
Yes. Shannon Miller is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Family violence has existed for 50,000 years, but what's changed is visibility and services; more eyes on the problem doesn't mean the problem is getting worse, it means we're finally tracking it properly.
Behavior is a choice, but you can only choose from the decisions you know how to make, and most men who use violence learned violence as a problem-solving tool in childhood.
Young men today have better attitudes toward women than they did in the 1990s, and we can see this shift in schools and communities if we look for it instead of amplifying the negative stories on social media.
John Milham (Host) · 00:00
Kintsugi Heroes acknowledges funding and was made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at cbf.org.au. Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. In this episode, John Milham is joined by Shannon Miller, a devoted advocate for change in the realm of family violence. Shannon's journey from a young man struggling through school to an army recruit and eventually to a social worker is both inspiring and enlightening. Shaped by personal experiences and the witnessing of trauma in his early and professional life, Shannon found his calling in supporting communities and working closely with families affected by domestic violence. His unique insight into male behaviors and his dedication to understanding the roots of violence provide provide a refreshing perspective, emphasizing not just intervention, but holistic family support. Join us as we explore his commitment to creating safer, more nurturing environments for all. Enjoy this one with Shannon Miller. So ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another Kintsugi Heroes podcast, Stories That Matter. And today, as always, I always say this, uh, it's an incredible treat and privilege to talk to a man who is, um, has now, uh, moved from where he started, which was a long way away from where he is now. That sounds, you know, pretty dopey, but, but, um, uh, is now working in a part of, um, of the community that is both, uh, very difficult and, and, and controversial, but also essential to the well-being of our about our entire community, our entire society. So Shannon Miller, welcome to Kintsugi Heroes, and fantastic to have you on.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 02:02
Thanks for having me.
John Milham (Host) · 02:03
And mate, talk about stories that matter. There's a long— you are someone who is now dedicated to working with families and in communities around supporting the domestic violence and elements of changing up, making sure that people are safe, in particular in a situation that is in the news at the moment because it seems to be out of control, right? Is that the case? Is it out of control?
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Engagement with men as human beings, not as perpetrators to be shamed, is the only thing that changes behavior; custody without support sends them back out with no job, no home, and more risk of harm.
This conversation includes school wasn't his place, five years as a butcher, then boredom, the army exposed him to worse, four soldiers lost in two weeks, moving into alcohol and other drugs work and ten years in child protection.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 02:47
I'll be controversial and say no, it's not.
John Milham (Host) · 02:49
Oh, good.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 02:51
Well, good from a point of view.
John Milham (Host) · 02:54
It's terrible to, you know, but it's good to, you know, to get someone who has a word of, you know, of calmness to this because it seems to be a very frightening kind of conversation and dialogue at the moment.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 03:10
Yeah, absolutely. I guess to answer your initial question, you know, is it out of control? I'll say no. And a lot of people will disagree with me. Yeah. And the stats don't reflect what I'm saying. But I guess the issue is we've got so many more eyes on family violence. It's not a new issue. It's been around for 50,000 years. But it's so prevalent in the media. You know, we have a lot of stats around the loss of women in the news. And, you know, obviously absolutely horrible. But what we also have there is we've got a lot of women who have been dying in the past and we've never found them or never known who they are or how they died. Whereas now we actually, like, we know that there's family violence. So, yeah, sometimes the media can paint that as increasing problematic But we have so many more eyes, so many more services picking up these families. So it can make it look like it's getting way worse, but it's because we've got so much work going into addressing it.
John Milham (Host) · 04:27
Wow, that's a reassuring voice for a change. So well done. Can I ask, was there a young bloke, a young Shannon, and I often ask this, you know, mucking around at, you know, at school or playing sport or, you know, hanging out at home that dreamed of being in the military?
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 04:50
Uh, probably not, to be honest.
John Milham (Host) · 04:52
So how did you end up there?
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 04:54
Yeah, yeah, sure. So, um, I— yeah, school wasn't a great time for me. Um, I didn't enjoy it that much and I skipped most of it. Um, So, you know, it was, you know, the parent ultimatum was, you know, get a job or get back to school. So, um, yeah, I became a butcher. Um, but I guess, yeah, the dream was always sport, really. Like, I wanted to be a professional footballer, like soccer, um, to most people around here. Um, and, um, yeah, bowling. I was big on camping bowling. I was pretty good back in the day. Uh, and that was sort of the dream. Um, But yeah, I became a butcher, um, for about 5 years, um, and then sort of after that point I just like, this is boring, I need, I need something more exciting, um. Yes, I looked at the army like, yeah, you know what, I could, yeah, I could do that, um, yeah. So that's sort of when I got in the army and that was, you know, a huge challenge, um. It has its own challenges in what, because I guess I grew up, you know, son of a tradesperson, a butcher. Um, when I was at the butcher, I was, you know, exposed to pretty horrendous, I guess, male behaviors towards women. Um, I've joined the army and that just was 10 times worse, um, in how women were treated, how girls were treated on their nights out with the boys and that sort of thing. Um, yeah, and just sort of flips. Like, I sort of— I did join the army I never was one of the boys, I guess. I was, um, yeah, just, I was sort of part of my own little pocket there. And then, um, yeah, I guess, I guess the tipping point for me was, um, you know, I didn't go to Afghanistan, but I was, you know, one, one person off going, um, and when soldiers were coming back We were having huge drug issues, alcohol issues from dealing with their own PTSD and what they experienced. So, and what happened was we lost 4 soldiers in my group over a period of about 2 weeks. And that was all drink driving.
John Milham (Host) · 07:20
Yeah.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 07:20
So 4 guys, all separate incidents. All just absolutely smashed, jumping in brand new V8 cars they bought with their money from overseas, um, and have, yeah, obviously died. And so I, I was sort of— I wasn't getting out of the Army at that point. I was sort of a bit over it, um, um, and then, yeah, I left the Army and, and moved into that AOD space. Um, I was in the NT at the time, so you know, the natural opportunities were working with the local Indigenous communities. So I did a lot of that, working with young boys disengaged from school. And then that sort of spurred my interest into working with adolescents and, you know, particularly high-risk adolescents who are sort of engaging in a lot of criminal behavior, missing from home, that sort of thing. Yeah, that's why we're moving to child protection. Um, so the child protection for 10 years.
John Milham (Host) · 08:23
And what was involved in child protection? So you were working like with, you know, like, uh, you know, Department of Justice or, you know, DOCs, that kind of thing? So intervening into family circumstances?
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 08:36
In a sense, yes. Um, that's exactly what I was doing. But with, um, I guess the Adolescent things are very different. So when you're working with young families, they're doing everything they can to keep their children in their care. And you do have a difficult position as someone in the government working with families who have huge trauma histories, huge family violence histories. Whereas working with adolescents, it's almost the opposite. It's very much the harm has been done and it's, you take my child before I can't, I can't deal with anymore. So, so a lot of it is, was supporting, um, yeah, adolescents to really develop their independence and, and, um, move on far too early.
John Milham (Host) · 09:22
Yeah.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 09:22
Um, to, to be their own, own person and live on their own and get a job and that sort of thing. Um, yeah, so working a lot with, um, yeah, with a lot of youth justice, a lot of meetings with children in custody, substance issues, lots of young girls being exploited by older men and being targeted particularly because they are child protection clients. But yeah, through that, I guess through that space, I really started to understand and, you know, the experiences of women and really understand that family violence is behind every single case. Um, whether it's now or it's historic, um, it's behind. And that's for men and women. And that's one of the things that really bugs me about the family violence sector is, um, you know, you'll, you'll see the slogans, 'Behavior is a choice.' Yeah. Um, and that's— a lot of people don't agree with my thoughts on that. Um, and it— and so some of it's my experience and a few of the books I've read over the— over time. And, you know, behavior is a choice, but you only have a choice of the decisions that you know how to make.
John Milham (Host) · 10:42
Yeah.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 10:43
And I think that's really missing, um, in the— inside at the moment. Um, and whether I think One of the things that really tipped my thinking on this was I was reading, I was reading a book about death row in, in the States, and you know, there's just the life stories of these men who are on death row, and they were horrendous stories.
John Milham (Host) · 11:08
Yeah, yeah.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 11:09
And, and you know, one of the, one of the, um, stories was, you know, a guy who's on death row for— I can't remember what he actually did. Um, but he was talking about when he was a kid, his grandma got a new boyfriend, came, brought him home, and they— there was family violence between them, and he was 5, and he pulled out a gun and shot the guy. And so he's talking about the story to this, um, this writer, journalist, and saying that that was not an uncommon opportunity. Like, that was an option that he had and was— know that he could have it, that he could pick up a gun and shoot someone to solve, solve whatever's going on. And, you know, I was thinking about my own son. I'm like, my son will barely pick up a toy gun. Like, it's not a choice he could make because it's not a choice he even knows is an option. Um, and yeah, and I started reading more into that. Um, and so the work that I try and do outside my professional role is, you know, supporting that work with men, um, who are using violence, um, or, and struggling with those choices, and trying to work through how those choices come into play. Um, because there's almost no perpetrators of violence who are male that we come across that don't have a history of violence against them. Childhood trauma, family breakdown. And it just gets— if you're a victim, it becomes a, you know, we'll look at what this person's been through. But if you're a perpetrator, it, you know, well, they had a choice to do that, that's on them. Um, and yeah, it is, there's still got to be responsible for their behaviors.
John Milham (Host) · 13:08
Yeah.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 13:09
Um, but we dismiss their histories and trauma and experiences of violence, um, as predominantly as children. Um, just all the time.
John Milham (Host) · 13:23
Well, just what popped up then is the idea of, of, um, you know, the perpetrator is, is, is demonized But there's no, you know, you working with families, like the whole idea of an adolescent gets to a state where he becomes, you know, unworkable in the family. But he, you know, but he was, you know, he wasn't always in that state, right? So, you know, what, what helped him there? There's always a more complex relationship, transactional issues and past. How is it like we've demonised the perpetration of violence, but not necessarily the sort of the acts and attitudes that lead us there? So both people play a part. So is it more complex? Like, do we need to actually look at this as a whole unit?
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 14:20
What do you mean by that one?
John Milham (Host) · 14:21
So the family is the issue, right? Not just the individual. Making a choice to hit or not to hit. It's much more, you know, dynamic. There's many more actions going on that we need to look at.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 14:36
Well, yeah. So, I guess, from an adolescent point of view, you know, we've got adolescents who use violence are almost always also victims of violence in the home. And what comes with that is beliefs and value systems predominantly around women, um, you know, of what their role is, what they should be doing, what men should be doing, what men shouldn't be doing. Um, and that's what the combination of those two things is what we see in most perpetrators. Um, you know, if you've got someone who's grown up with, you know, really negative values and beliefs about women but doesn't have the experience of violence we probably see more of those, you know, coercive controlling behaviours as opposed to assaults. But it's our young men who are, you know, growing up with violence, growing up knowing violence is OK, that's an acceptable way to solve a problem, combined with those other issues, we have our most high-risk perpetrators. And that's because No, no young person comes out of the womb as a perpetrator. They are made through society. Um, and so, and you know, a large factor is what's happening in the home, how they're raised, those attitudes. Um, but it extends, you know, just sporting clubs to our role models, our politicians, our musicians, um, that shape our young men's views. And that's the, and that's the, the problem at the moment is we have this, you know, we do have an imbalance issue, um, and we've got family services trying to solve it, but the whole, whole community needs to be, and the whole country, yeah, needs to be on board because you can't have, um services teaching young men to respect women, you know, they're your equals, we— you don't hold power over them, while you've got a potential next Prime Minister saying that, um, women are getting promoted because of— by— because the country's biased towards women and we need to fight back. Like, you can't— it can't happen at the same time.
John Milham (Host) · 17:08
What about the idea, right, and you know, if you had a perfect scenario, all the resources you needed to take a family with complicating factors, what would be— what would you be confident doing to get good outcomes?
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 17:24
Engagement with men. That's the absolute number one, is engaging with men and treating them as as a human being and not on their behavior. Um, understanding that, trying to get to know their story, um, and, and taking a, I guess, a human rights approach to working with them as opposed to a, um, black and white, you know, custodial approach of do this, don't do this, or you go to jail sort of attitude. Um, yeah, the more we shame, more we demonize them, the less engagement and the less likelihood that their behavior is going to change. Um, yeah, that would be my number one, right?
John Milham (Host) · 18:15
Masculinity, you know, is under the, under the, uh, microscope at the moment for, you know, being, you know, toxic and, um you know, for not serving the community properly and causing all sorts of other things. How, you know, how much is culture, do you think? Like, you know, is it, um, intrinsically a problem with masculinity?
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 18:41
No, I say no. So I, yeah, I have this conversation with lots of people. Like, masculinity is not— it's the act of man. Like, it's, it's not negative, it's not positive, it's, it's what it is. And, you know, looking at things as toxic and that sort of thing is really problematic. Yeah, it's, it's just, it causes so many problems. And, you know, we, and we have these, you know, online personalities that try and target and take advantage of this situation. And so I guess The reality is, I guess, the social media, um, focus is the problem. Um, because when I go to schools, um, when I meet with young men in, you know, sporting clubs, other— I see young boys who have such a better view and value of women.
John Milham (Host) · 19:43
Yeah.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 19:45
You know, positive roles in the community, um, than when I was a kid. Yeah, I— this— what I— the behaviors I see in schools is drastically better than what I saw and was encouraged to do when I was at school. Um, and I think this idea that this toxic masculinity is, you know, infecting everywhere I think it's garbage. Yeah, I think the— on over the, over the whole of community, we are raising far better men than what we used to. That's, that's my opinion. Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 20:24
There are, uh, constant calls to make the legal consequences of family violence more significant, or, you know, increase the punishments and so on. Does that help?
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 20:40
Temporarily. Long term, no. I mean, that's my opinion. Lots of people would disagree. At the end of the day, if you've got, say, a man who's potentially going to kill a partner, he's in custody, that's a better outcome. But they get out, like, and what, like, what we see in this sector is we see, you know, IVAs in place, they've breached the order 20 times, they get, they get remanded for 6, 8 weeks or whatever it is, and then when they're out, it's just we're back to square one. No one's engaged that man while they're in custody because they've been in custody. Who cares about them? They're locked up. Um, and then it's just back to square one. As soon as they get out, and then the victim's back at risk. He hasn't, you know, he's got no, no support to address what's going on other than the threat of more custody. And, you know, so, and some people that works, you know, some people the threat of custody is going to, uh, you know, change their views. But more often than not, it's not. Yeah, we need more work early, more interventions and therapeutic supports when we're starting to see these behaviors rather than locking them up. I don't think that's— yeah. I mean, I say it all the time. There's not a single social issue that's been solved by custody. In any country.
John Milham (Host) · 22:24
Yeah, it always finds me, you know, I always get a little, you know, confused as to, you know, because men can't work when they can't, you know, go into custody and come out, like no one will give them a job. So, you know, how are they meant to go back to being a provider and supporter of their family when they can't even, you know, when we've changed the game for them, right?
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 22:45
And I mean, I'd almost go as far to say that custody probably increases the complicating factors that lead to family violence because, you know, they've got no job. Sometimes they're exiting with no home or homeless. Yeah, you know, it exacerbates gambling issues, AOD issues, and increase the likelihood they're gonna cause more harm.
John Milham (Host) · 23:13
Yeah, probably increase the, you know, the chance that they've suffered trauma as well, you know, as a Amazing. Do you think we'll, uh, you know, is the, the overall, you know, what are you so positive about? Do you think we'll, we've got reason to be positive?
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 23:29
Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, I, I, I grew up in the '90s, um, and the stuff that happens in schools and young boys, um, it was really awful, like some of the behaviors Um, you know, like, you go look at some of the TV shows in the '90s, you could not get away with putting that on TV these days.
John Milham (Host) · 23:54
Yeah.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 23:54
Um, and, and some of the movies, like what we used to call comedy back then, you know, like, there's stuff— there's movies that I thought used to think were the funniest things on the planet, and you pull them up these days, I'm like, that's so inappropriate. Yeah. And I think when I think about stuff like that I think we actually have come a long way. Um, you know, we can take this negative approach and, and look at every— the problem, I think, I think one of the problems for me is information is so easily accessible these days, and you can take any aspect of life and, and focus on the negative and, and not realize how much better we actually are doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess, yeah, that's where my positive comes from. Um, yeah, I, I think we're doing far better than what we make out we are on particular social media.
John Milham (Host) · 24:54
Nice. And of course, you're a young bloke, um, you know, what do you see ahead in terms of relationships and, and stuff for, for him and his peers, right?
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 25:05
Yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah, Cam's definitely grown up in a gender equality driven household, that's for sure. I mean, he still loves you, typical boy stuff. But yeah, definitely. He tells me he wants to be a swim teacher, but I wouldn't be shocked if he was a social worker or a teacher. Yeah, so very morally driven, I'll say.
John Milham (Host) · 25:35
Nice.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 25:37
Yeah, so, uh, yeah, he's probably going to be a bit of a narc of the school, I reckon. I remember, um, he's only in grade 1, but last year, yeah, first day of school, and the teacher started writing on the whiteboard, and it's like one of those built-in ones for the wall, and he was like, oh, I don't think you're supposed to write on the wall. And that was like day one. Yeah. A born—
John Milham (Host) · 26:04
yeah, he'll be a born, uh, you know, school captain.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 26:09
Yeah, not sure about that.
John Milham (Host) · 26:12
That's, uh, that's amazing, mate. And, and thank you. I reckon there's hours more. I'm so interested in, in what, you know, your insights and, uh, and your experience, right? And refreshingly, your attitude towards, um, you know, the po— you know, helping, helping men who are under-resourced and under-supported in this space, right? Because families depend on them. So it's amazing work you're doing. Thank you so much for sharing some of it today. And I look forward to talking more about the amazing stuff that you're out on the ground making a difference in every day with the community. Thank you, Shannon.
Shannon Miller (Guest) · 26:53
Thanks for having me.
John Milham (Host) · 26:55
Good on you, mate. Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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