Philip Basche (R)
Friendship and Fitness are the key to a good life with Philip Basche
At 51, Philip survived a massive undiagnosed heart attack and chose to spend his reprieve in service to others.
Hear this story
Kintsugi Studio
Philip Basche (R)
At 51, Philip survived a massive undiagnosed heart attack and chose to spend his reprieve in service to others.
Hear this story
At 51, Philip Basche had no idea he'd just survived a massive heart attack. He was getting a routine checkup for a life insurance policy when doctors found the damage on his ECG. Five hours of surgery later, he woke to learn he'd had seven bypasses. That single day became a hinge point. Instead of asking how much time he had left, Philip asked what his life should mean.
Loss had shaped him long before the heart attack. He lost his father to alcohol at 14, though the real fracture came at 21 when his brother, who'd become his father figure, died of cancer. His ex-wife's alcoholism cost him a marriage and, he believes, contributed to the cardiac crisis that followed. But each time, the same people showed up. Friends he'd known since childhood became his family. A phone call from four of them while he lay in an ICU in Finland lifted him completely out of despair and showed him what everyone needs: somebody there to listen without judgment.
Philip spent the next two decades building a life of service. He joined boards supporting disadvantaged young people, learning from a teacher that respect is the one word that matters. In 2016, he reluctantly took Lifeline crisis supporter training. It changed everything. For the past decade, he's been mentoring young men and answering crisis calls, finding that a simple thank you from someone whose life he's touched is reward enough. He credits two things for keeping him alive and well: the friends who've stayed beside him, and the exercise that's been part of his life since he turned 30.
Philip's message is direct: talk about it, reach out, ask. Most people will say yes.
“It was 6, 9 months after I started my relationship with Katrina that she was sitting next to me and said, 'You've had 7.' And I said to her, 'You'd better leave now, 'cause this may not be very nice.' And still 20-odd years later, she's still here.”
“I made 4 phone calls to my 4 best friends, and my mood just went through the roof. I mean, it was just like. And that's when I really realized and understood how important having people around you is to everybody.”
“Phil, just one word. And I've never forgotten this, just one word: respect. If you can just get young people to understand that word and respect everything that's around them, people, environment, their bodies, I mean, you go on. That's just such a powerful word.”
The hero, today
Philip has understood for more than two decades that the diagnosis which could have ended his life actually gave him permission to ask what it should mean. The friends who showed up when Philip was 21 and losing his brother are still his closest friends today, and they remain his major source of strength. Philip learned from a teacher that when you teach a young person respect for themselves, others, and the world around them, everything else follows. When Philip calls four of his closest friends from an ICU hospital bed in Finland, his mood lifts completely, and he realised then that what everyone needs is somebody there to support them. Philip credits exercise and friendship as the two things that have kept him alive and well, and he says most people underestimate how critical exercise is to mental and physical health. The greatest reward Philip gets from mentoring and crisis support is a simple thank you, knowing he has changed someone's life by listening without judgment.
Yes. Philip Basche (R) is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Philip has understood for more than two decades that the diagnosis which could have ended his life actually gave him permission to ask what it should mean.
The friends who showed up when Philip was 21 and losing his brother are still his closest friends today, and they remain his major source of strength.
Philip learned from a teacher that when you teach a young person respect for themselves, others, and the world around them, everything else follows.
When Philip calls four of his closest friends from an ICU hospital bed in Finland, his mood lifts completely, and he realised then that what everyone needs is somebody there to support them.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 00:00
This limited Kintsugi Heroes podcast series was made possible through grant funding provided by the New South Wales Department of Communities and Justice Connecting Seniors Grant Program. If you'd like to find out more about Kintsugi Heroes, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au. Welcome to our Kintsugi Heroes special series, Connecting Seniors, where we share the experiences of aging Australians to create connections across our communities. In this episode of Connecting Seniors, we're revisiting a conversation from Kintsugi Heroes with a senior who is making an impact on the world or connecting with their community. This week, we hear Avalon Clark's chat with Philip Bash. Hello, we are here. It's another episode of Kintsugi Heroes, and my guest is Philip Bash. Philip, thank you so much for joining me.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 00:59
My pleasure, Aveline. Absolute pleasure.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 01:02
Wonderful. Well, let's get started, shall we? Um, take us— can you take us back? Like, where does your story begin? Provide us with that context and the background and what was going on for you.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 01:15
Yeah, look, probably, um, the trauma in my life was mainly around the diagnosis of a serious heart condition, you know, when I was 51.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 01:27
I—
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This conversation includes seven bypasses at 51, the losses that came before, a father who was never there, friends as family, friendships that last decades and the stress test nobody expected.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 01:27
it ended up that I had 7 heart bypasses, which was pretty amazing and large for anyone to have had. In fact, it's probably hasn't been beaten since I had that in the year 2001. The beginning of my life was fairly very good, actually, as far as education was concerned, loving family. Except that I lost my father when I was about 14 from alcohol. I lost a 12-year— brother who was 12 years older than me when I was 21 from cancer. And I've also lost an ex-wife who I watched become an alcoholic through my marriage with her, and she, she died 10 years after I left that relationship. But really, um, I suppose this— the defining part of my life was realizing that I may not have very much longer to live. And here I am, 21, 22 years later, still here. Um, what have I done in relation to trying to live my life for, uh, with meaning? And mostly it's around the satisfaction of being able to give back. And I've done that in a number of different ways with volunteering as a Lifeline telephone crisis supporter. I've also mentoring through an organisation called Mentoring Men. I've been on a number of boards of not-for-profit organisations as well, mostly involved with the young people and mental health issues. Um, and that in itself has given me a significant amount of fulfillment from being able to do that. Um, the, the thing I think that is most important is that I'm able to understand one of the reasons that I've been able to keep my health the way it is, is that my prolific amount of exercise that I do It is the thing that mentally and physically keeps people well adjusted, and I thank that very sincerely that that's always been part of my life, and it has never been a struggle for me to want to do that, and that's exactly what I do. The other thing that I find is extremely important in my life for me has been the community, the friends that I've got, they have been really, really supportive. And through my experience at Lifeline, I can understand— I understand that there are many people out there who don't have that level of support from other human beings. That is something that is extremely important for everybody. And part of what I was doing at Lifeline was to be involved in training the community in relation to how to, um, how to relate to people in crisis or just people in general. And I find that that is something that I'm continually doing in my own personal life, and it brings to me a great deal of satisfaction. In being able to be there for people and most importantly listen, active listen, non-judgment, and really just be there in the space for the person who's talking to you, which has been amazing. As far as my heart condition's concerned, I've had a number of relapses. I've had quite serious concerns in relation to a couple of very nasty, um, places where I, where I actually, I fainted. I was— I've been taken to ICU 2 or 3 times. So every day is, you know, we have the— I have the question in my mind, what's going to happen today? But I think the major thing that really stood out for me when I had that problem was You've got to live every life, every day of your life for today and not really think about what could happen, but just get on with it. And, you know, the ability to be able to help other people get on with it has, for me, been absolutely, absolutely so rewarding. And that's really what gives me the strength because I know I'm serving a purpose. Being on the planet. I know I am. And when people say thank you for being there, it's the greatest, the greatest feeling that you get when that happens.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 06:31
It's really lovely, Phillip, and I can see why you would be so comfortable— so we should say life qualified— to be a mentor, a crisis counsellor with Lifeline, given what you've been through. Can I take you back? Uh, you lost your dad at 14. How did that change your world at that age?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 06:55
It actually really didn't, Aveline, because, um, from the minute— probably from when I was born, he was in and out of rehab, out of, um, in, in homes. So he was never really a dad for me. Um, so I don't have a lot of pain over that. The bigger pain comes from me when I lost my brother, who then— who had then become my father figure, um, and he was taken away when I was 21. Um, and I think that had more effect on me than losing my dad, to be honest. Um, he— yeah, look, that, that was really, really hard for me to, to get over. And I understand that a father figure in people's lives is extremely important. And I'm also very understanding of the families, the, the support a family can give people. And that's again what I get involved with quite a lot through, um, the mentoring experiences, being a father figure for the people that I'm mentoring and just being there for them to talk to somebody about anything. Um, and Aveline, I have to say that, you know, the adversity that I've had, but, but it's all so much made up by being able to give back. And I, I just don't know whether I'm making that clear, but that's the way I feel.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 08:24
Yeah, absolutely it is. Who did you have to help you through the passing of the loss of your brother?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 08:33
My friends. Um, my friends. Um, I have to say, that is my major source of strength. And I, yeah, I, I suppose I didn't have a father figure ever again, ever again. Um, but certainly my friends have been there for me right the way through. Um, you know, I had, I don't I had a very nasty experience in the Arctic Circle where I did have an episode. And, you know, I remember myself going into a fit of depression when I was in ICU in Finland, and I made 4 phone calls to my 4 best friends, and my mood just went through the roof. I mean, it was just like And that's when I really realized and understood how important having people around you is to everybody. And how, when I listen to people when I'm talking on the phones, that they don't have anyone to go for except a stranger on the end of a telephone. I just— my heart goes out to those people because that's what we all as human beings need, is somebody there to support us.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 09:54
Yeah, absolutely we do. So tell me, those friends you had at 21 when you lost your brother, are those— did those friends become kind of lifelong friends? Did they— were you close to them for a long time?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 10:09
I have to say to you, Evelyn, I cannot— you know, I'm gonna say I've just lost one of my 5 closest friends 2 days ago. And, you know, it's— I have, I have, I have contacted the other 3 close friends to tell them what's happened, and the support has been amazing, absolutely amazing. So both— for 2 of the people that I've talked about, one was my best man at my wedding, the other one was a groomsman. So, and one of the— one of my friends I've been known him since we were 9 years of age. So, you know, those sort of friends never disappear, never disappear. I've been so lucky.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 10:55
Yeah, that's why I asked, because when you have friends like that, especially at that age, and when you go through something that big, those friends become your family.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 11:05
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 11:10
So, 21 And then your next big thing that happened was 30 years later. How did the diagnosis of your heart condition come about? Like, what was happening for you when you found out?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 11:25
That's— I mean, actually, following this, I told a lot of people about what happened. Um, I went and did a stress test. Um, I'd went to a doctor to get a checkup for, um, a life insurance policy one of my people who bought into my business wanted to take on me, out on me. And he said, oh, you've got some problems. When he did the ECG, I went to have a stress test and I saw the people who were behind me on when I was doing the stress test with absolute shock in their eyes and they couldn't believe what they were seeing. So the next thing was that I was, you know, I, I, I then took myself off to hospital and they said, well, you've just had the most massive heart attack. And I said, no, I haven't. What do you mean I've had a massive heart attack? I have absolutely to this day no idea, no idea, no memory of when that heart attack occurred. And I do make a point of telling people that because sometimes it, well, obviously it can happen and mine was massive. But I had no idea. So, um, you know, that, that was how it occurred.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 12:37
Were they able to pinpoint the time that it happened, or how long?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 12:41
No, no.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 12:42
Okay.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 12:43
No, no, no. And neither could I.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 12:46
So that's amazing.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 12:47
No one knows.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 12:48
No one knows. So when you turned up at hospital and they said, oh, you've had a massive heart attack, did they basically say, you're in now, like, come on in, we, we need to and do some work, pretty much.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 13:00
And they said, you know, we'll go in and have a look. And when I came out, my then partner said, you've had 7. I've had 7. Said, 7 what? 7 bypasses. So, you know, that was pretty traumatic in itself, hearing that news. Yeah, quite traumatic.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 13:16
How long were you under for?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 13:20
I think about 5 hours. Yeah, about 5 hours.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 13:24
Okay, and it was 7 in the one operation, or were they spread out?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 13:28
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. 7? No, no, no. Couple of arteries had 2 bypasses in a couple of the arteries. Yeah, anyway, it was traumatic, but also, as I said before, Avalon, it was— I look at it as being a great asset to my life too, because it made me think about what a why I was here, what I was going to do, how I just couldn't rely on my life being going forever. And I suppose that's the way I treat my life right now. It's— I don't know when it's not going to be here. Neither does anyone, let me tell you. I'm not saying, I'm not saying everybody knows that, but it's sort of the chances are far higher for someone with my condition for it not to be here.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 14:17
So that, that was what happened when you came out, you had that, that moment of clarity and that the opportunity to look at life and, and realize.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 14:29
Yeah, I was also in a very, very fortunate position that I had my own business and I could manipulate my own remuneration and the employment of people to make my life just that much better around the things that I actually wanted to do with it. So that, again, I was very, very fortunate to have that, the ability to do that as well.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 14:55
Where, can I ask, because I just want to pull in the other piece that you mentioned earlier about your ex-wife going through alcoholism. Did that happen before your heart bypass, multiple bypass operation?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 15:08
Yeah, yeah, it did. It actually did. Um, I left her in— decided I had to leave in June 2000, and my bypass occurred a year later. And, you know, I probably don't have a lot of doubt that that was partially, you know, that caused the heart problems. I'm sure about it because it wasn't— it's not as— it's not an easy thing to do, to walk away from someone who you know is not in a good place. Um, but I just couldn't do that.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 15:43
Yeah, must have been hard. So you came out, you had a look at your life, and great, got a bit of perspective at 51. What were the immediate changes that you made in your life as a result of the operation?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 16:04
Um, as it turns out At the same time, um, another— my partner came into my life, a new partner with whom I, I'm still with. Um, so that was sort of like a, a line in the sand saying, right now I've got a new, a new relationship, a new partner, and both our desire was to do a lot of travel. And that's what we did for the, for the next 20 years. Um, And to be honest, I'm not sure I can travel again after the last year or so, but if I can't, then that's just the way it is. You know, I've been very, very fortunate in what I've been able to do, and I've loved every minute of it. So yeah, and that's— and also the fact that I, you know, had an ambition and I had a business coach who said, this is where I've got to get to financially to be able to retire. And that's what I did. Yeah, so it just worked out that way.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 17:06
Again, you had good people around you, didn't you?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 17:09
Aveline, I have to say to you, that is— that so much is what we really need to instill in our community, that we're all here for everybody else. You know, we're not here just for ourselves. We are here to help other people because the feeling you get when you're able to do that is unbelievable. So I've experienced that firsthand with the people around me. And I suppose if I could just wave a magic wand, I'd get everybody trained in our community to be able to sit and listen to other people's stories. And, you know, just help people get through the issues they've got.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 18:00
How important was it at the time you met your new partner for her to come into your life to help you, like, partner with you and give you that sense of— well, all the things that a new relationship brings, uh, to start that new phase? You know, partners— and that's the question is because Obviously, we're talking about having the right people around us, and our partners, whether it's a business partner or a life partner, are just so critical.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 18:31
Look, it was 6, 9 months after I started my relationship with Katrina that she was sitting next to me and said, "You've had 7." And I said to her, "You'd better leave now, 'cause this may not be very nice." And still 20-odd years later, she's still here. So again, my belief in people, my belief in people is just, it's indescribable because that is so important. And, you know, I could go on forever about people, but I'm so aware of how important it is for everybody to have someone. In their lives. Somebody, some, anyway.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 19:17
Yeah, for sure. What did the doctors say to you after the bypass operation? What kind of outlook did they give you? Was it a negative one?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 19:27
They didn't, and they never have. And even now I say to— I have two cardiologists because I'm a bit greedy, um, and I say to each of them, you know, what's the prognosis? And that they understandably won't answer that. Um, but you know, I, I feel this time last year I was in hospital and having some serious operation. 12 months later, I'm feeling like the best I've felt for about 7 or 8 years. And so I just, I've just finished a 10-kilometer walk, um, and I don't feel the effects of having done that. So again, you just got to get— you get on with it. When you can get on with it, you get on with it. There's always the inkling in the back of your mind that when's this going to end, um, but you try and dismiss that. You try and dismiss that and put good things in your life, put good people in your life. Um, that's what makes a difference.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 20:32
Have you always had a really strong state of mind, as in that belief in yourself and your life?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 20:41
Yeah, yeah, I have, I have. I, I've, I've had a moment of depression, uh, which lasted around about 2 weeks just at the time I was leaving my, my ex-wife. Um, but, and so that when people tell me they are suffering depression, I actually know what it means. So I'm really pleased that that happened because I know it's not just, oh, you know, it's nothing. Um, but I haven't— and a lot of people I say that to, Evelyn, they say, aren't you lucky you only had 2 weeks? Um, you know, so I do understand that that sort of thing is, is real. Um, but I got through it. I got through it with friends. And I, you know, I just saw the guy who helped me get through it don't see a lot of him, but I saw him about 2 or 3 weeks ago. And, you know, he was there. He was there. He's still a friend. I mean, yeah, yeah. Okay.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 21:36
And I'm looking at your face as you're talking about him, and it just lights up with just such joy and love and gratitude. So for those that are listening to this and not watching the video, I just want you to know that Philip's face just glowed when he was talking about his friend then. And that, it's just beautiful. And that's why, you know, you're here. You're here because your friends helped you get here and helped you live your life.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 22:05
I have to say yes, but the other thing I would absolutely say, and I hear this so often, that, you know, people do not understand the importance of exercise. You know, that is just absolutely critical to our lives. So for those two things, I'm so ever grateful. Yeah.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 22:24
When did you start the exercise? When did that become a big thing in your life?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 22:29
When I was about 30. When I was about 30, I, you know, I played rugby when I was at school. And, you know, I'm 6 foot 2, so, and I'm quite a strong person. But about 30, and so it's always been part of my life. It's always been part of my life. And the people who I have around me, friends, all the same. And that's what happens. You collect the same sort of people in your own little village. And that's exactly what happened.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 22:59
Yeah, so true. We do, don't we? Tell me about the— I guess the journey to where you are today. As in, when did it first dawn on you that giving back in some way was important to you?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 23:14
Probably the late '90s, to be honest, when I joined the board of a not-for-profit in Canberra. And we were helping disadvantaged children get an education. If they weren't at the school we were running, then they were in the Remand Centre. And, you know, seeing how simple it— well, not simple, but how important it was for children particularly to have someone around them that cared about them, who were out of families where that didn't happen. Um, and when I— the teacher at the school, I said, you know, what do you teach these children, Steve? And he said, being very naive and not having much to do with this, thinking he might say reading, writing, arithmetic, he said, Phil, just one word. And I've never forgotten this, just one word: respect. Um, such a powerful word. And if you can just get young people to understand that word and, and, and, and respect everything that's around them— people, environment, their bodies— I mean, you go on. That's just such a powerful word. So that was when it started, I suppose, in the, in the late 1990s.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 24:30
And when did you start your work with Lifeline?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 24:36
About 2016, I started— we started to support their training as a business. I got involved in that and I did some training myself. That wasn't really what I was best at doing, but I did a bit of that. And then the head trainer said to me, you know, Phil, why don't you do the Lifeline Telephone Crisis Supporting Course. And I said, no, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. That's it. And she said to me very powerfully, she said, it'll, it'll change your life. And she was right. It did. It did. What I learned there was just unbelievable. It's been the most amazing thing, and it's given me another life post-work, which is fantastic.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 25:24
It's so beautiful to hear. How, how much time do you give in that, in that area at the moment?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 25:32
Uh, um, it's really hard to say because, um, I've, um, well, I've also got a foundation going and I'm supporting, uh, I have some very strong views about— oh, that's another long story, but a fair bit of time. Yeah, I mean, as much as I feel I want to, and I do it at my own my own pace. But, you know, I've got two men I'm mentoring, and that takes a bit of time. And, you know, I, I have— I don't even measure it, Evelyn. I don't measure it.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 26:09
And, and what's been the most rewarding part of this journey of giving back, would you say?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 26:16
Thank you from the people that I support. Like last week, the young 23-year-old that I've been mentoring for about 18 months asked me to go to his graduation at the university. Um, you know, you don't need much more than that. And it's, it's all those things. It's so often when you're on the phones and, you know, at the end of the call someone says, oh, thank you very much, you know, and you just And you walk out of there feeling like a million dollars because you actually know you've changed 2, 3, 4 lives in the time you've been sitting on those phones. That's what's rewarding, the word thank you. Yeah, that's what it is.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 27:04
I will say you have expressed throughout this conversation your gratitude and also how important people are that give me back. So I just want to you know, let you know that you have said that a lot, and, uh, it really has shown through in this conversation. And I love that you've made such a point of that. And given your experience and your background, you're not in the place where many people are when they've just gone through a trauma. You know, there's been a lot of years since that trauma at 51 with your heart operation, and you've got this beautiful wisdom and experience of then changing your life, but also creating a new life in a very different way, and using these little pieces of your life experience to then help others. And I just want to acknowledge that and thank you for sharing, and the powerful message that you've given.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 28:06
Thanks, Evelyn. I, I, I, yeah, what can I say other than that people have supported me, so if I can support people, that's what I'm— that's, that's what I'm on the planet for. Simple as that. Very easy.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 28:20
Um, if there's someone— if people listening to this who are going through anything that you've mentioned— I mean, you've mentioned a lot of different experiences that you've experienced, your family the health condition, any of it. If someone is going through this, what piece of advice or just words, what would you like to say to them?
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 28:45
Talk about it. Reach out. Ask for support from people. If it's— if it needs professional support, ask for professional support. But importantly, don't hide it. Just talk about it. Just get it out. And particularly with men, because men don't talk about these things. You know, most people will offer support if you ask them for it. And that's what I think we all need to understand, that people want to help other people. But very often they're reluctant to actually come out and ask for that. For that help. And, um, to me, that's the answer.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 29:26
It's a very, very powerful message. And you're right, people will give help, you know, when, when we're asked. People will say yes because at our core, we're all humans and we actually need each other. We, we have care and compassion for each other.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 29:41
Sure, sure.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 29:42
Yeah. Well, thank you, Phillip, for being you, for still being here, and for shining your love, your light, and your compassion and grace on the world and everybody that you come into contact with. It's, it's so remarkable to hear your story, and I'm really grateful that you were able to share it with me today and with everyone else listening.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 30:06
Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity, Evelyn. I hope, I hope in some way this helps somebody out there. That's the purpose of what I'm trying to do.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 30:17
Thank you for listening to this episode of Connecting Seniors, a Concilia Heroes special series.
Philip Basche (R) (Guest) · 30:24
Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 30:31
If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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