Michael Hughes · 53 min
After fifteen years of failed IVF and a decade of grief, Michael Hughes turned his and his wife Vicky's profound loss into a global movement giving voice to the silently suffering childless community, especially the men no one thought to ask.
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Michael Hughes and his wife Vicky met at 16 and planned a future together. When they decided to start a family in their early 30s, they learned that Vicky had polycystic ovaries and Michael's sperm count was affected by his weight and health. For the next decade, they pursued IVF. The treatment filled them with hope each cycle, then devastated them when it failed. Michael watched Vicky suffer severe hormone hyperstimulation during their final round. At 40, he told her he could not continue. After a long conversation, they decided together to stop.
The years that followed were darker than they expected. They had spent ten years scheduling every holiday, every sick day, every moment around procedures and ultrasounds. Coming home to the same house meant confronting the ghosts of miscarriages and bad news in the same rooms. Friends with children drifted away or told them to get over it. But a trip to London changed everything. At Fertility Fest, Vicky found herself in a group of women who understood her loss. She told Michael, 'I feel like I belong.' That moment set him on a path to speak publicly about what most men never talk about: the grief of not becoming a father.
Michael started a blog on Mother's Day 2016 from a Florida highway. He has since become an ambassador for World Childless Week, co-hosts a podcast exploring childlessness in all its forms, and helps run a men's support group where childless men can develop language for what they feel. One in five women will be childless, he says, but most grieve in silence because they think no one cares. Michael and Vicky survived their first decade after stopping IVF through holidays, therapy, and learning to talk with each other about the hard things. Today, they show others that it is possible to come through.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses grief & loss, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • Lifeline (24/7 crisis support): 13 11 14 · lifeline.org.au • GriefLine: 1300 845 745 · griefline.org.au
“Michael, I feel like I belong”
“there are people that contemplate life is now not worth living”
“I can tell you as the custodian of over nearly 300 male stories that it is true and it is real that men do grieve that they are not fathers”
The hero, today
Michael and Vicki spent a decade centring their entire lives around IVF, scheduling holidays and sick leave around procedures and ultrasounds, until they stopped at 40 and realized they had done nothing for themselves. The IVF industry presents success rates that Michael now knows are misleading, hooking people in with false hope, and then abandons patients when treatment fails without offering mental health support or accountability. One in five women will be childless, but most people don't know it because childlessness is hidden: people grieve in silence because they believe no one cares and no one will understand. The best thing friends and family with children can do is include childless people rather than avoid them or tell them to 'get over it', as Michael saw with Vicki's best friend who invited her to witness her daughter's birth. Michael and Vicki survived the first 10 years after stopping IVF through holidays, therapy, and learning to talk with each other about the hard things, and they now run a men's support group where childless men can develop language to express what they feel.
Yes. Michael Hughes is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Michael and Vicki spent a decade centring their entire lives around IVF, scheduling holidays and sick leave around procedures and ultrasounds, until they stopped at 40 and realized they had done nothing for themselves.
The IVF industry presents success rates that Michael now knows are misleading, hooking people in with false hope, and then abandons patients when treatment fails without offering mental health support or accountability.
One in five women will be childless, but most people don't know it because childlessness is hidden: people grieve in silence because they believe no one cares and no one will understand.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 00:03
Welcome to the Kintsugi Heroes podcast, where we share inspirational stories of everyday people going through different challenges and how they overcome them. Please be aware that the story you're about to hear may have moments of deeply felt emotions and personal experiences. If anything you hear has a triggering effect, please reach out to someone who can help keep you safe. If you love this conversation, please like and share it with your friends so we can continue to share more inspiration and hope to as many people as possible. Now listen up for our next hero's story. And in this episode, I met with Michael Hughes and heard his very eloquently spoken story of what it is to be the husband in a couple who can't have children. And what a journey he and his wife went on. It really opened my eyes and my heart opened so much more after hearing his story. He tells it through the lens of the husband, a male, male's voice. And often we hear these stories from the female, the mother. And he's, as he says, that's his wife's journey. He was there to talk about his journey. And I'm so glad he did. There was a lot that I learned from this. It was really eye-opening, and of course he's learned from it and been able to step up and find a way to help others as a result of his adversity. It's a wonderful story. There's a lot of moments in this that had me very moved. I'm sure that it will be for you too. Enjoy this one with Michael Hughes. Well, here we are. It's another episode and I'm here with Michael Hughes. Michael, thank you so much for joining me on Consumer Heroes.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 02:01
Look, it's great to be here and I'm privileged actually to, to chat with everyone.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 02:07
Thank you. I feel, I feel honored. Every guest that comes on, I feel honored and grateful. So it's very mutual. Well, this is about your story. So how about you take us back to where your story begins? Could you describe where it begins? Um, wherever you need to start and, uh, take us, take us there.
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The best thing friends and family with children can do is include childless people rather than avoid them or tell them to 'get over it', as Michael saw with Vicki's best friend who invited her to witness her daughter's birth.
This conversation includes meeting at 16, planning a life together, the diagnosis arrives: polycystic ovaries and a double challenge, the ivf rollercoaster begins, vicki on the floor in convulsions, drawing the line in the sand at 40 and the ghosts in the house they never left.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 02:31
Okay, it starts— probably won't tell you the date, but it starts when we were— or my now wife was 16. We met, and just like any other, um, couple you, you know, once you, once you know this is the one, you plan a life together. And, and so we were no different. I remember early on, uh, more Vicki, my wife, saying that, uh, she said, doctor says I might need some help having, having children. And we were very young, we were very naive, very, yeah, very, you know, um, we weren't very worldly at the time. We were quite young. And we didn't understand exactly what that meant. Now I look back and then we just thought, yeah, okay, yeah, we'll worry about that when the time comes. So we get to, uh, 25 and we decide we've got married and, you know, now it's time, now it's time. Um, just a little funny anecdote is that my wife would have started when she was 18 or 19, but my parents always drilled into me, no, That's too early. That's too early. So, um, yeah, anyway, we got to 35, started, and we thought we'd have children. And so, um, what that statement about needing help was is that my wife has polycystic ovaries. And I, and look, she's happy for me to mention this, you know, it's part of you'll understand it's all part of our healing, so to speak. And so yeah, what that meant was that we had to then follow the, um, assisted, uh, medical reproduction. I think that there's— that's one term, um, a lot of people will understand it as infertility treatment, which usually finishes if, if you're not successful through the different steps because there are many, and I— it will probably be a bit too much information to tell you what they are, but most people will understand that at the end of it there's IVF. And we, we— so we jumped through all the hoops to try and have children, um, and we got to IVF. And so we started to, again, journey along that route. By this time, we were in our early 30s, um, and so it, it was very important that we, um, hurry up because yes, the biological clock does tick. There's a, there's a lot of, a lot of complications that come along with that. So, um, we had a many rounds of IVF. Now, through that process as well, we found that that my sperm count and sperm mobility was really affected by how well I was at the time, and particularly how much weight I put on. And that becomes a little bit— that becomes important later on. But yeah, so it's almost like we had this double whammy that, that we were fighting against to try and have children. And so the IVF, um, journey took us to at least our 40s. And one of the things that, that you people need to recognize about IVF is it's actually quite a toxic rollercoaster because now don't get me wrong, I mean, it's great that people can, you know, have this procedure available to them and have those children they want. But of course, for us, it wasn't working. So it becomes this toxic roller coaster of hope and despair because they fill you full of hope. Yes, this round's going to work. And I don't believe they tell you the truth about how successful they are. Let's just leave it at that so we don't get ourselves into trouble. But, um, yeah, so, uh, so you get filled with all this, this hope, but then the despair that comes along with that when it doesn't work is, is very deep, and it gets deeper and it gets deeper. And so we got to 40, and I remember sitting— I remember Vicki coming back from, uh, her doctor and who had said, look, you know, I think, I think it's time. I think it's time to stop. And I, we, my wife and I have a bit of a laugh about this because I've never seen her so driven, never seen her so driven when it was, when we were doing IVF. She was so driven to have a child, uh, and she's come home going 'Well, I don't think he's right. I think we'll keep going.' For me, that really wasn't an option because I just remember sitting on the lounge crying my eyes out going, 'I can't, I can't do this anymore.' And that's because one of the things that I saw Vicki go through is the hormone treatment that she has to go through is hard. And the last round of IVF that we had, she actually was, um, hyperstimulated, which for those who don't know means that you— they keep you on a knife edge, if you will, of, um, pumping you full of hormones so that you produce the most amount of eggs that you possibly could. But there is a danger that you can get poisoned from that. You are hyperstimulated. And I remember walking out into the back of our house— has tiles— and she was on the floor in convulsions. And I just thought, we can't, we can't keep putting you through that either. It's just, it's— we have— there has to come a time when we draw a line in the sand and say, look, it's enough, we've done our best. And and then move on from that, which is quite an easy thing to say, but it's not an easy thing to do. So we got to 40 and we said that— a very long conversation, but we decided it was enough. We had to stop. And when we did stop and looked, reflected back on that time, we realized that for a decade, all we did was try to have children. So think about your holiday time, your sick leave, everything, everything is centered around trying to have a child. So we would schedule holidays so that that was in line with the, with the procedures so that Vicki could have all her ultrasounds when she needed to, and drug therapy and egg pickups and all this sort of stuff. And we thought, we've done nothing for a decade. And we were depressed. We were extremely, extremely, um, it was an extreme dark time, I should say. And, and so, you know, we had to make a— decide what we were going— how to get out of that. The beginnings of that was, uh, We sold some shares that we had and just went around the world for 12 weeks, which was great. It took you, it took you out of this house. And this is the same house that we've always lived in because, um, there's no point trying to get bigger when there's only still the two of you. But the problem is, is this house holds ghosts. It holds baggage of that, those times where Vicky would have miscarried, or we, we had the news we didn't want to hear. So when we went overseas, that was great. We were away from all of this, and it was fantastic, and we loved it so much we did it again the next year. And, um, but what it, what it didn't do is it didn't take us— when we come home, all that baggage and all that Uh, all those things I was talking about are still there, all those ghosts, as we like to say. And so it, it has— it took us a decade to, to get through that, to become comfortable with our life. Um, there is a, um, and there are many things that happen within that time. There's things like what they call the friendship apocalypse, where all those people around you are having children, and, and that's the way our society works. It just— but just like having children changes your life, not having children also changes your life, because some people find it hard to deal with you. We find it hard to go to children's birthday parties, as an example. Because it's a reminder, it's a trigger of what we don't have. And when all the parents are around, you know, talking about their children, and yeah, it's a tough time to be around because you feel like a third wheel. You just feel awkward. And of course, there's that trigger that you may get swept up in the emotion, you know, the positive emotions on the day, but It's when you come home, just the two of you, you know, that it really smacks you. So we chose to say, no, we're not going to go to those. And as much as we were overt about this and told people why, a lot of people didn't understand. They didn't get it. They just, oh, you've got to get over this. You've got to, yeah, you've got to get over this. It's going to kill you. They were actual remarks that we've had from our family. Not, how, how can we make this easier for you? How can we help you still be part of the family? None of— there was nothing like that. So, and we are not the only ones that, that experience this because this is rife throughout what we call the childless community. Um, and so for, for me I, a psychologist once said, I've got this thing called white night syndrome. I need to fix everything, which I laugh, but it's probably a bit true. But, um, so for me, I wanted to make a difference. I thought, well, let's not help— let's not have other people like us have to go through this. And so we tried to find, um, support groups and things like that to, to try and find people just like us. And what we found was so both amazing but at the same time so sad, because some of the stats that, uh, that get, um, brought up now are something like 1/5 of women will be childless. Now think of it, one-fifth, 20% of all women who were childless. And that means that there will be people in your sphere of— and not just you, Avalon, but whoever's listening to this— there will be people in your sphere of influence that will be childless, but you probably will not know because they are dealing with a grief that is profound, that is life-changing. But at the same time, they think no one cares. No one will understand this because everyone else has children that are around them. Sadly, it's not even seen as important about childless men. So, guys, an Australian researcher once said to me that I've tried to get research programs up and running to sort of to research the Childless Men experience in Australia, and I can't get anyone interested because they think it's not a thing. It's not worth it. But I can tell you, as the custodian of over nearly 300 male stories, that it is true and it is real, that men do grieve, that they are not fathers. And, but I should also clarify that with trans men, we have trans men in a group that I helped set up. So, and we can say with certainty that it affects every part of our community, however you identify. But So yes. So what does that bring me to? So that brings me to trying to make a difference. So one of the things that we did on one of our trips overseas is we had the opportunity to go to Shepherd's Bush in the UK, in London, where there was a, uh, it was called Fertility Fest. And there was a day there that, that was dealing with people who were childless. You know, what happens when fertility, you know, you don't You are infertile. It doesn't work. And my wife looked at me when I said that. She was, are you crazy? What the—
Aveline Clark (Host) · 16:42
why?
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 16:43
What are we going to do this for? No, but there is a day for us. There's a day for us. Anyway, what that did was we went to a few presentations on the day and it got us connected with our community. And one of the things that I still remember, and hopefully I don't tear up when I say this because I always do. Is, um, after one— the last event of the night, we was all around in the bar chatting, and we, uh, with many people, um, Steph Phillips, who's a lovely lady in the UK who started, uh, something called World Childless Week. And she has— it's about, um, obviously educating the world about what it's like to be childless in this particular way. And many, many other women. Uh, Berenice, who I now do a podcast with. Um, who else is there? Many, many people. Um, but so we've all had a bit to drink and we've gone outside and we, of course, everyone's looking for something to eat by now. And I remember walking down the street thinking, where's Vicky? Turn around and there she is in this group of women. Um, with this group of women and they're in this big hug together. And I'm thinking, and they're all crying. And I'm thinking, and of course me being a bloke, women crying, what's going on? Um, I've walked up and is everything okay? And Vicki says, Michael, I feel like I belong., and that was quite, quite a profound moment for us. Um, and so that put me on a, on a trajectory where I thought, right, that's it. I'm, I'm gonna do something about this. Uh, Vicki, my wife, doesn't have— I need to be careful how I say this, but she, she's quite empathetic. And so she finds it really hard to, to, um, to, I guess, get involved in the community because all the sad stories really hurt her. Whereas I tend to look at it from a different perspective and think, look, let's make some change. Um, and that's no secret that we're both very vocal about that. And so I decided I'm going to start a blog about, uh, the the male child's experience. There's lots and lots of lovely, beautiful women out there who are blogging about it as from a female's perspective, but us guys, not too many. I think I might have been one of, I don't know, a handful. Um, it was started actually, it was Mother's Day Australia, it was Mother's Day in Australia 2016. We were on another overseas trip, and I'd seen an article by Bianca Doye, who's a radio presenter in Queensland. And it talked about— she's been very open about her struggles of trying to be a parent. And she talks about why motherhood— sorry, Mother's Day hurts so much for her. So I read that, and I thought that really spurred me on to write the blog as well. And that was on the side of the I-10, just outside of Quincy in northern Florida. It's funny how the world works, isn't it? So, um, so I wrote my first blog and was able to share it in some of the support groups that I'm in. It was very well received. Now, don't get me wrong, don't get too excited because I'm, I Failed English miserably. So, but I thought, let's, let's do it anyway. Um, and so what then that blog got me to be noticed by World Childless Week and Steph asked me to become an ambassador for World Childless Week. Um, and then I've been asked to speak about the male childless experience. I've was interviewed by the ABC some time ago, and it was— it was— look, the journalist was fantastic, great, really listened and got, got to the point of, you know, my experience, and I was really, really thankful for that. But I can tell you what, people are brutal in the comments, absolutely brutal. Um, And so this is a really good example of why the childless find it really hard to speak out, because yeah, some people just shocking. So, um, yeah, so where did that take us to? And then I got asked to be part of a podcast with, um, two other ladies from the UK, and we are up to now 46 episodes, I think. And what What we are trying to do is delve into the many facets as what it means to be childless, because it's not just about IVF, it's about many things. It's about chronic disease. So we've interviewed people that, that they've had to make a forced choice between do I have children and potentially die, or do I not? And other people where they've concentrated on their career, let's say, for so long that it's now become very difficult, perhaps too late, to have children. They don't have the resources to, you know, have surrogacy or things like that. There was other— domestic violence is another one where people chose not to have children because they didn't want to be tied down too much, because they need to be able to move and get away from the perpetrator. And so yeah, there's many, many different facets to this. And then looking at our LGBTQI community as well, that, that adds another level of complexity. So this gruff, fat, hairy guy who's just an ordinary Aussie bloke, I feel so privileged to have been party of these conversations. And, um, as I say, finds beauty in such a— I want to say sad because I don't want to come across as sad, but in a difficult part of life. But there is such beauty in it as well, because one of the things that that oozes from the Childless community is this empathy that is just, as I say to them, we are the gold standard of how to treat human beings and the rest of the world has a lot to learn from us. Um, but yeah, and so I like to think that, that, yeah, that's my contribution to the world through being childless.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 24:01
Sorry for the interruption.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 24:03
This is Ian Westmoreland, the founder of Katsuki Heroes, and thank you for listening to this story from one of our amazing heroes. Our mission is for these stories to provide hope and inspiration to people experiencing life challenges and to also educate the broader community on how best to provide support. If you would like to help us to continue to produce more hero stories and cover cover more adversity themes, we would welcome all donations. These can be made via our website, kintsugiheroes.com.au. The donate function is at the bottom of the home page. We'd also welcome any feedback.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 24:40
You can email me direct using ian@kintsugiheroes.com.au.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 24:47
Now let's get back to the story.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 24:55
Well, Michael, um, first of all, thank you. I, I could imagine that the years have just been, I guess, surprising in a sense, given where you started with Vicki, you know, at 25 thinking, yeah, let's, let's have babies. And, and then the journey that's followed sounds one of those journeys that, you know, you couldn't have predicted. And yet here you are today and smiling and being and holding the— holding a mantle and a light for so many people like you and letting them share and connect with that understanding, which is so healing and so necessary. I've, I've got some questions if that's okay.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 25:47
Um, go far away, far away.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 25:50
Thank you, thank you. So when you, when you decided to have kids, when you said, yep, it's time, and then the doctor said for whatever reason, oh, you, you can't just naturally have kids or it's not going to work and you've got to go down this assisted reproductive program route, how did you feel? How did Vicki feel?
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 26:11
I think, um, yeah, that's an interesting question. I think, well, for me, for me, I've— I come from a family where my parents grew up at the end of the Second World War. God, how old does that make me? Anyway, um, and but they, particularly my mother, just had a sort of attitude where, well, you just got to get on, you just got to get on with it. Um, that's what I did. That's what I did. And then, you know, we were, we would listen to, well, so that, sorry, we listen to the doctors and the fertility experts saying, oh yeah, we've got a 90% success rate. Yeah, we, this, yeah, we've got a really, really good chance. So of course you hook onto that, you hook onto the really good chance. Um, I've since discovered, and as many of my colleagues in our community have, that that's not true. And so—
Aveline Clark (Host) · 27:11
Why do they say it then? Is that part of the spiel to just hook you in to— or do they want to keep you in a positive state of mind?
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 27:20
If you're asking me, yes, they do that to hook you in. And look, I don't think it's from malice. I think it will— They are an industry. Um, I, I was asked to speak at the European, um, there was a, uh, Fertility Europe had an online event a few weeks ago and I was asked to speak at that. And I think, I'm not quite sure how the, how the Aussie, you know, upfront way of talking went down with some of the more professional people in that talk. Because one of the things I said was, you know, the IVF industry. And I said, and I mean it's an industry, you are there to make money, otherwise you wouldn't do it. I don't think they're quite happy with that, but hey, you know, there's nothing wrong with ruffling a bit of feathers. Because one of the things they need to understand is that they have a duty of care to tell the truth and not BS it, because we're talking about people's lives here. We talk about the way that people form their lives. And if it's not gonna work, or if it's not as a miracle as they say, just tell people that. Because you set them up on the wrong path if you're telling fibs, so to speak.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 28:41
Yeah. So in other words, you feel like you're hoodwinked or lied to, so to speak.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 28:46
Yeah, but that doesn't come until later. So the answer to your question is we just got stuck in and, you know, We were enthused by it all, but it's not until afterwards that you come to these realizations. Now, some people may go, no, well, it just didn't work for you. That's why you sell grapes. But I'm not the only one that feels this way.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 29:05
Well, yeah. And saying that it's an industry, you had to pay for this, right? It wasn't like it was covered under Medicare or any kind of—
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 29:14
oh, there is, there is some of it covered under Medicare. And look, we were in a position. I got a fairly good job, and so we were in a position to— well, we had the resources. All the people that don't, you know, yeah, a lot of people that don't. And that's, yeah, that's a sad thing to do.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 29:36
Yeah, my understanding is it— there is, you know, a fair amount of cost involved having friends that have gone through that.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 29:43
Yep, definitely.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 29:46
When you went, started to go through it, did they give you any extra resources, as in, here's a support group, or here's, here's other things that we recommend you do, you know, let's look at nutrition? Did they give you anything else, or was it just the program?
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 30:04
Just, just the program. There was a support group of such, but that was while you were going through the process. That was while you were paying money. And then once, so I use the term, once we decided to say no, enough was enough, we were set adrift. And I say it took us 10 years, 10 years to become comfortable with that into a, to when we got to 50. And this is where I get a bit of a bee in my bonnet about, um, the IVF industry need to take responsibility for what you have created cuz you are selling the dream. It didn't work. Now take responsibility for what you have created in that respect.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 30:49
It's really sad because, you know, this is a, um, I mean, it's a fundamental aspect of life, right? We're talking about life here, creation of life. And you were not given the ability to have that. So given it's such a mammoth impactful thing, surely they would— well, this is coming from someone who has not had to go through that, right? So there's a bit of naivety, but I'm quite aware that it's an industry. I look at that and go, well, given it's such a mammoth and impactful process and part of life, surely there'd be some kind of support that they would give you emotionally, mentally, psychologically after the fact, given you've just spent how long going through this, having your dreams constantly built up and then squashed, and, and then it's all over. This is a recipe for, you know, mental health disaster.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 31:50
Oh yeah, there's many, there's many people that would not survive this. Be it a relationship or, um, and there sadly there are people that contemplate life is now not worth living. The lady I do a podcast with, Berenice, she's been very open about that, so I can, I can say that she thought about that, and it was only her dog that, um, you would have to listen to the podcast episode, but it is, it is, it is her dog that made her change your mind. So I'm very keen— her dog's name's Molly, and I'm very keen on having a mug that says, "We love Molly too." That's beautiful.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 32:37
You know, what you've described is another— well, it's a very strong use case from a community and a society perspective to have something built in. It's like humanity. Connection, understanding, that creates the healing. And to think that your friends that were able to have kids were so un— you know, not understanding and made life hard for you is— it's quite painful to hear that. And I'm sad for you. I'm sad that you went— had that experience because I know that it, it's discrimination, but it's also heart-wrenching.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 33:19
Yeah, look, Bunny, I'm sorry if I can interrupt you there. Funny that you say, well, no, I shouldn't say funny, but, um, that just shows you the limit of my vocabulary. I recently, in the company that I work for, uh, had the opportunity to talk about this as well. And I got a message, a private message from someone who said, um, she was a mother and she goes, I didn't even realize this was a thing. I, I didn't even know. So I think I just need to preface that, yeah, that it's not usually out of malice. It's just usually that people just don't even realize that childlessness is a thing. And this is one of the things that we—
Aveline Clark (Host) · 34:01
what—
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 34:01
one of the reasons why I'm very passionate about being vocal is that the, the whole conversation can sometimes get hijacked by people who identify as childfree. Now please, I just want to say that childfree people have made a, you know, a sound decision about their life where they don't want children, which is their right to do. But unfortunately Um, everyone else seems to think, well, if you don't have children, you fall into that bucket. You fall into— you chose not to have children. And where, uh, the childfree are happy with the decision that they've made, the childless are not, or because they didn't have the choice. So you may hear the term childless not by choice. And so, yeah, so that's why I say, I say that there's— it's usually not malice, it's just purely They're not educated. They don't— they've never been exposed to it. And it's up to us because we're the only people that can actually make this happen, is to, to be vocal about it and, yeah, try and change the paradigm. And that's where my work in the podcast with my other two co-presenters, you know, fits in.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 35:26
Yeah. Um, along that line. Let's go back to when, I guess, at first in that, in your 40s, when you decided to stop. And there's obviously, you know, you spent a decade of just, I guess, integrating and coming to terms with, and you're starting to create, you know, life outside of trying to have a baby. And then you talk about, um, you're not choosing not to go to friends events where there's a birthday, child birthday party, and that kind of thing. In hindsight, what would have helped you? What would have been the most loving, supporting thing that your friends with children could have done for you and Vicki?
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 36:19
Um, best word I can think about is inclusion. So having said all I've said, one of the things that Vicki holds really dear to her is that her best friend said, I want you to be at the birth of my daughter. And she did. It was a big call. It was not an easy thing that Vicki came to terms with, but She did. And, um, that young lady's now in her early 20s, and she looks at Vicki as her second mum. And they have a really good relationship, really. And it's a deep relationship because Vicki has been part of that young girl's life since she was born. And so it's a really good example of just inclusion, um, rather than trying to put your own values onto a childless person, just include them. That can sometimes just be enough because then it takes its— it becomes its own critical mass and it moves on from there. That makes sense.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 37:42
Yes, let's say you— so you were— you said before you and Vicki were quite open, uh, you told people, yeah, so they knew. What if there's a couple that aren't so vocal and they're, they're keeping it in?
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 37:58
What they should do is seek out the— our community. There is a warm, supportive, empathetic, beautiful bunch of people just waiting to embrace them. Um, but yeah, you're going to have to seek them out because, uh, people like— there are people like me that, and other people around the world that are quite vocal. So seek them out. If you're listening to this and you, it resonates with you, seek me out. You'll find me on social media. If you put Michael Hughes childless, I'm sure I'll pop up somewhere. And if you see a, you know, a chubby guy with a, you know, gray beard, that's me. And, um, yeah, because, sorry, I'm just now going waffle. I'm gonna stop that. But yeah, I think that's the best point. Seek out the community cuz there are some, there, there is a wonderful one. Just waiting to embrace you.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 39:03
That's nice. How did you and Vicki survive the first 10 years after stopping the IVF?
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 39:13
Holidays. And that's not a tongue-in-cheek thing. That is fair dinkum, as we say. We went on— I don't— look, I really can't tell you how much money we spent on holidays. But again, what it does is it takes us away from here. It takes us away from those— because the ghosts will always be there. But, um, but new experiences around the world is something we, we hold quite dear because, you know, there'll be memories that, that'll last forever. And, um, you know, we, we also did a good decade on the psychologist's couch as well. We both have to deal with some childhood sexual abuse and other things. And again, I'm allowed to talk about that on behalf of Vicki and I. So what that taught us through that whole journey was how to talk about the right things. And look, don't get me wrong, it's still hard sometimes, but we're skilled up in knowing that if we can talk about the right things, we're getting to the root of a problem. And because I can tell you there are some people out there, and look, I'm a cis male, so I need to just preface that, that most of my experience is with heterosexual couples. And I can tell you that I know many who don't actually talk about what it's like to be childless within their own, within their own couple. So, um, and that's another, yeah, so Vicki and I were lucky in that respect that we got that help, we got that support, we learned from it, and that's also been part of that as well.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 41:13
Did you have separate counseling or was it together or bit of both?
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 41:17
It was both. It was both, yeah, depending on— yeah, we— and we look, we were really— so one of the things, if you're— if you are childless and you're looking for support in that, that way, one of the things I would say is be very picky with who you go and see because not every therapist is going to be able to resonate with you. We were lucky. We found a, we found a lovely woman who had, who understood grief and trauma. She had lost her own husband. She had lost her own daughter. And so, yeah, she was trauma-informed. But there are, there are many people out there who aren't. So just be picky. Having said that, I can put you onto some people that also are therapists in that area as well.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 42:07
Um, that's beautiful. Very, very helpful, um, Michael. Thank you so much for that. Lastly, um, I'm really interested in— I know we've just talked kind of about the healing journey, but I'd like to just go back to the point, the moment where you both realized it was over. You talked about how you said to Vicki, no, I don't think I can go through this again. What was it like for her the moment she accepted and dropped that driven— drivenness to keep trying? What happened with her? How did she pivot?
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 42:50
Um, I think it was, it was a, it was a long process for her. And look, she'll still tell you now that there'll be times when she'll go She will go to in the shower and have a thought and she'll be crying in the shower. Are you even at 55? Um, so it's, it was a longer process for her. For me, at that particular time, I, it was sort of, uh, that's a, that's a weight off my shoulder. But for her, it was, it was a much longer process because Yes, she firstly had to come to terms with we're going to stop. She had to come to terms with my point of view that didn't sit with hers. She still had that drive, and it took quite a while for that to wean off. Wean off is probably not the right word, but yeah, it was a long process. And we still were going through some therapy at that time as well. Which helped. But yeah, it— look, and it wasn't an easy decision. Well, it wasn't easy for her because one of the things that she said was, I don't want to ever look back with regret and go, I didn't try hard enough. But once, you know, once we began talking about it, you know, we had to take lots of things into consideration, like our age, the doctor's advice. I mean, they're not all bad, are they? I mean, there's— doctors are good people. But we did listen to some of their advice where they said, look, you know, there's going to be a big chance— if it does work from this point on, it's going to be a big chance that your child will have a disability. Is that something that you can handle? And these are the sort of things that we talked about because could we? And I was very open. I said, I couldn't. Vicki was very open and said, I could, no problem. Because one of the things that this whole process has taught us, that we— parenthood is seen very differently between Vicki and I. I mean, there was the drive and the yearning was there, but it just we have different views and we get different things. We believe we would have got different things from it.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 45:17
Yep.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 45:17
And so, yeah, we went through, we started to look at it from a logical perspective and thought, well, okay, look, let's say that this hap— we get to 45 and we have a success. Do we, could we deal with the stress of knowing that are we going to have a child with disability? That child will be 15 and we'll be 60. You know, that— I remember a conversation with one of my neighbors. He was in a similar situation to that where they had a child who had some severe disabilities, and so that scared them from having another child. But then, you know, as they become to manage their life better, they did have another child. I think he was 50 and he had another child, or they had another child. And he says, I can't, I can't keep up. It's, it's killing me because I don't have that energy anymore. So these are all the things that go into that not easy decision.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 46:18
No, no. Um, you know, you raise so many very practical, wise, and real points that, you know, many couples that do have kids never talk about. You know, they don't even get to those kind of levels of topics of conversation.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 46:36
And there's other things which I've become now exposed to, is that the resentment that actually builds in the child as well. So, um, I was watching an SBS doco about, um, children late in life, or women who had donors. And so these, I mean, they're adults now, but they don't know who their fathers are. And so they actually quite— they're resentful to their parents because they felt that they didn't have the childhood that everyone else had because Mum and Dad were old. And so, yeah, yeah, that's— they're all— these are all the things that, that come into those— that decision-making.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 47:20
Oh yeah, and they're all real. And, and it's, it's great that you're talking about these things and bringing them out into the light. Um, and wonderful to hear that you've got the podcast that you're doing with these other two ladies. So for anyone who's listening who is going through this or is, you know, childless, I think definitely have a look at Michael's podcast and seek, seek that refuge of that support group and the network of people that understand you.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 47:52
One of the other things too It's really weird. I don't normally talk about myself, but, um, well, haven't done for the last 50 years. Uh, there's also— we also have a support group for specifically for males as well. So where we, we knew that I do this with a couple of guys, Melbourne, another guy in the UK. We had a guy in Latvia and a guy in Zimbabwe that we admin this group, and we realized that there needs to be a safe space for childless men to to, yeah, express how they— well, yeah, I would say express how they're feeling, but what it's turned out to be is a place where obviously they can seek support from people who understand them, but also a place where we can develop a vocabulary. Because one of the things about the childless is that because we don't talk about it, because we don't come together, because we're not this critical mass, We feel that we can't sometimes express how we feel because we, yeah, we haven't explored the language of what it means to be childless. So yeah, the men's group particularly, that's one of the things that we do.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 49:08
That's really powerful. Well done.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 49:12
Oh, thank you.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 49:15
Michael, uh, I just want to thank you for coming and sharing your story. Um, your journey. Oh man, I mean, I'm just putting myself in your— yours and Vicki's shoes, and I just— hats off to you for surviving it, for being such warriors, and for coming through and finding a way to give back to others. And the way you're helping others, and I love that you've, you know, found your— found your place, found your tribe, and you've got a smile on your face. And, um, yeah, it's, it's so much joy and so many positive things that obviously have come out of this. Um, and it's, it's a touchy subject. It's hard. And for people that have children that don't, that don't understand, I think it's really important that they listen to this. And I hope, hopefully they are, and they're starting to understand what it's like for people who like yourself and Vikki who can't have children. So I just want to thank you for the work you're doing and for creating the awareness and sharing your story today.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 50:24
I'd thank you so much for allowing me to talk about this because it is a subject that not many people want to listen to. And so, yeah, any chance we get, we grab it with both hands. And yeah, so I'd like to thank you for giving us the opportunity.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 50:41
You're welcome. I do have a final question for you, Michael, and that is, if there's, if there's someone listening to this right now who might be going through IVF or is struggling to get pregnant or has figured out that maybe it's not going to work, or, you know, or it's their brother or sister or friend that's going through it, is there something you'd like to say to them?
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 51:06
Yeah. I'd just like to say that the best support— so for those who are experiencing it, seek out the community. So if you've come to that point of acceptance, because it'd be really— yeah, if you've come to that point of acceptance where you think it's not going to work, then seek out the community now. I know it's tough and I know it's painful, but Just having— listening to or reading about other people's experiences will make you feel so less alone because it is a lonely, lonely journey when the world around you is focusing on family and the government are focusing on family. Every budget is about family and you feel so isolated. And because of those things I talked about earlier, seek out the community, you'll be warmly welcomed. And for those who have people in their family that are, um, that are childless, the best thing you can do is not tell them what to do. It's just listen and say, tell me, I want to listen to you, and so help me understand what life is like for you.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 52:28
So simple, and yet that's the essence of true compassion and connection and being of service to our fellow human.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 52:39
Certainly is beautiful.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 52:41
Yeah, thank you, Michael. It's, uh, a path less traveled, I should say. I was about to say, but you know, it's, it's a journey that has brought you to where you are today. And, and I just want to, yeah, again, honor you. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing that. And I know that your message will touch a lot of people's hearts. So thank you.
Michael Hughes (Guest) · 53:04
Thank you.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 53:07
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