Michael Hingson
A blind man's preparation and partnership with his guide dog became the foundation for leading others to safety on September 11th.
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Michael Hingson was born blind in Chicago and grew up in rural California learning to ride bikes, navigate school without Braille for the first three grades, and eventually become an Eagle Scout. At 14, his first guide dog Squire arrived and taught him what partnership really meant: not a dog leading him around, but a two-way relationship where he had to know where he wanted to go and give clear commands while the dog stayed calm and trusted his direction.
In 1999, Michael took a job opening a computer office on the 78th floor of the World Trade Center. Unlike most people, he spent months learning the building's layout, exits, and evacuation routes. That preparation became muscle memory. On September 11th, when a plane hit above his floor, his guide dog Roselle was yawning at her desk, unbothered. That calm told him they could evacuate in order instead of panic. For 20 minutes they descended, Michael praising Roselle constantly to keep her steady and to signal to other evacuates that someone nearby was okay. He gave her the commands. She followed them. When the second tower collapsed outside, Michael heard words in his head telling him not to worry about what he could not control. He and Roselle made it out.
After September 11th, Michael shifted from selling computer hardware to teaching people about leadership, trust, and how to use fear as a tool instead of letting it paralyze you. He wrote three books and continues to speak worldwide. He says the real misconception about blindness is not what blind people can or cannot do. It is the assumptions sighted people make. There is more than one way to do something, and eyesight is not the only way.
“Guide dogs do not lead blind people around. That's not what they're for. Guide dogs' jobs are to make sure that we walk safely. It is my job and should be my job to know where I want to go and how to get there.”
“I heard words in my head that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running with Roselle and the rest will take care of itself. I heard those words as clearly as you hear me right now.”
“Fear can be a very powerful tool that you can use to help you focus. Was I afraid? Sure. But I was not afraid to the point where I couldn't function.”
The hero, today
Michael was taught from his first guide dog, Squire, that a guide dog's job is to keep him safe while walking, not to lead him, and that he has to know where he wants to go and give the dog commands to get there. The difference between his survival on September 11th and panic was that Michael had spent months learning the building, the exits, and the evacuation routes before the disaster, so when it happened, his mindset already knew what to do. Michael's guide dog Roselle did not lead him out of the World Trade Center; Michael gave her commands and she followed them, and by praising her constantly on the stairs he kept her calm and also signalled to other evacuees that someone nearby was not afraid. Fear can be a tool to help you focus and stay alert if you learn not to let it paralyze you, and Michael teaches people to spend time each day being introspective about what scared them and how they will handle it differently next time. The misconceptions about blindness are not about what blind people can or cannot do; they are about the assumptions sighted people make, and if those assumptions changed, many more blind people would have access to work and opportunities.
Yes. Michael Hingson is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Michael was taught from his first guide dog, Squire, that a guide dog's job is to keep him safe while walking, not to lead him, and that he has to know where he wants to go and give the dog commands to get there.
The difference between his survival on September 11th and panic was that Michael had spent months learning the building, the exits, and the evacuation routes before the disaster, so when it happened, his mindset already knew what to do.
Michael's guide dog Roselle did not lead him out of the World Trade Center; Michael gave her commands and she followed them, and by praising her constantly on the stairs he kept her calm and also signalled to other evacuees that someone nearby was not afraid.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 00:01
Welcome to another episode of Animals and Us, where we explore and honor the awesomeness of animals and our relationships with them. Today's guest is American author and speaker Michael Hingson, who with his guide dog Roselle descended 78 floors to escape the World Trade Center on September 11th, 2001. Michael shares that amazing story along with his insights on trust, teamwork, leadership, faith, overcoming fear, and the life-changing role of guide dogs. Hello, Mike, and welcome to Animals and Us.
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 00:45
Thank you, good to be here.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 00:47
Let's start from the beginning, from your childhood. You were blind from birth. Can you tell us where you grew up and what your childhood was like?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 00:56
For the first 5 years, I grew up where I was born in Chicago, Illinois, and then we moved out to California to a little town called Palmdale when I was 5. It was probably good that it was sort of a rural town because I was able to ride a bike around the town and do a lot of things that the kids did. And also, although we didn't have access to Braille for the first 3 grades of school out here, I had learned Braille in kindergarten and kind of forgot it because I didn't get a chance to use it until the 4th grade. When there were enough blind children in the school district that the district hired a teacher, a resource teacher, to help blind kids with Braille and whatever else of things that they needed. And so I worked with Mrs. Hershberger a period a day and then just did what kids do. I was always interested in science because I didn't have access to Braille material for the first 3 grades. Through the 3rd grade, I learned how to do math in my head and did my math without being required to write it down. And mostly teachers were fine with that as long as I could prove that I knew how to do the work. The only time that was ever a problem actually was when I went into high school. My freshman year of high school, my math teacher, my Algebra 1 teacher, said, "You have to write down your work." I said, "I can show you how I do it." "No, you got to write it down or I'm going to fail you." And she was going to fail me until I wrote down the solution to one Braille problem, then she gave me a C. That's especially relevant because I never got anything below an A from then on all the way up through college when it came to math and physics. But teachers are teachers. And sometimes need to grow a little bit themselves, whether they do or not. Anyway, I learned to do math in my head. My mother helped me with material that that was outside of math and science. And I was able to keep up, but then Braille came along for me in 4th grade and kind of went from there. I joined the Boy Scouts, became an Eagle Scout with 2 additional palms, also joined the— was inducted into the Order of the Arrow, the honor society of the Boy Scouts, and achieved the highest rank for that, Vigil. And so I was in the Scouts. Always had an interest in science. We met a woman, I think when I was 9 or— I think it was 9, and we read about her in the newspaper. She was apparently a blind teacher who was hired where my father worked, about 40 miles away from us at Edwards Air Force Base. She was hired to teach kids on base, and so we invited her to our house and we became friends for many years. And she had a guide dog named Nola, a German Shepherd, and I got to meet Nola and learn about guide dogs. Well, when I was going to go into high school, somewhere during my 8th grade in school, my parents applied, and I'm sure Sharon endorsed the application for me to get a guide dog because we thought that would help in terms of me traveling around the school. And so I've got my first guide dog, Squire, just after 8th grade and was up there for a month mostly in July of 1964. And I've been using guide dogs ever since. So I now have guide dog number 8, Alamo, who's over here on the floor being bored with me telling the same story he's heard many times before.
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Fear can be a tool to help you focus and stay alert if you learn not to let it paralyze you, and Michael teaches people to spend time each day being introspective about what scared them and how they will handle it differently next time.
This conversation includes a blind kid in a rural town, squire teaches him what a team is, dogs trust more openly than people do, learning the world trade center before disaster, the plane hits and roselle stays calm and fear as a tool, not a paralyzer.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 04:21
And how did Squire change your life?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 04:24
Squire started to teach me what building a team was all about. And every guide dog has helped with that. Mm-hmm. People need to understand that a guide dog isn't what they think it is. Guide dogs do not lead blind people around. That's not what they're for. Guide dogs' jobs are to make sure that we walk safely. It is my job and should be my job to know where I want to go and how to get there. And I have to give the dog commands—left, right, forward, and so on—to tell the dog where I want the dog to go. So getting Squire certainly added a whole new level of responsibility that I had to handle because I had to be the one to feed the dog, care for the dog, and so on. So I did. And Squire was with me for 9 years until he retired in 1973. But it's all about really building a team. And so I learned to do that with Squire. And then as I worked with other guide dogs, I learned more about team building. And I love to say today that I learned a whole lot more about trust and teamwork and building a team by using 8 guide dogs than Tony Robbins and all the motivational speakers. Brian Tracy and all the big sales meeting people can teach. Because not only are you building a team, you're building a team with someone or some creature that doesn't think the way you do and doesn't speak your language. And you have to really create a bond and get that dog to be able to understand you and respect you. But it also means that you need to learn to understand and respect the dog. It's a two-way street all the way around.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 06:01
Did it take long for you to learn how to manage your guide dog, your first guide dog?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 06:07
Well, it took some time, but I think it takes a really good year to fully develop the trust with any dog. Dogs, I do believe, love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. The difference between dogs and people is that dogs are more open to trust than people are, because we generally tend to think that Everyone's got their own hidden agenda. And so the result is that we tend to not trust people very well. Dogs are open to trust. They want to trust. They want us to be their pack leaders and tell them what the rules are. The best dogs, the best behaved dogs, guide dog, service dog, or not, are dogs where people establish the rules, they're consistent about it. And dogs don't get up on furniture. Dogs don't just run around the house willy-nilly all the time and so on. Dogs really are bound by requirements and they learn them. And my job is to teach that. And you don't do it by when a dog doesn't do it, yelling at the dog and all that. It's— there are much more positive ways to do that. And that's something that's evolved over the years in terms of how to do it. But the bottom line is that we can do it. And when, when you start that process, if you do it right, you can have a close-knit relationship that's second to none.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 07:29
Mike, can we go back to 2001, and can you describe what your life was like around that time prior to the, to September 11th?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 07:41
Well, I'd been hired in 1999 to open an office for a computer company, and looking around, I finally Although I never thought I would move into the World Trade Center, I finally did some reaching out to their real estate people and got a really good deal on real estate because it turns out that they had a very sharp decline since there had been a small bombing in the World Trade Center in 1993. So I got a great rate and moved in. We opened the office in August of 2000. I had to hire staff. And other people in, in the office. But the one thing that I needed to do that most people don't do, I needed to learn all I could about the World Trade Center. Most people just rely on signs and so on for everything they do. I don't, because I, I don't have access to that information directly. But also, I knew that as the leader of the office, I needed to do whatever any other leader would do. So for example, if one of my salespeople had brought somebody in to talk about a contract and We gave them a demo of our equipment, and then before doing the contract, we were going to take them to lunch. I could say, "What kind of food do you want?" and say, "Oh, you want a deli? There's a great deli downstairs. Let me take you," and take them. I couldn't say, "Oh, I'm blind. Someone's going to have to lead me because I don't know how to get there," because how would that work if a couple hours later we're negotiating a multimillion-dollar contract? I needed to know, but also meant I needed to know what to do in the case of an emergency. I needed to know what the emergency evacuation procedures were. What the different rules were and so on. And what I didn't realize really until many years later was that actually by learning all of that and truly gaining that knowledge, it wasn't just information, I had to learn it. It created a mindset that on September 11th when airplanes hit the building and the building shook and, and so on, the mindset kicked in and I knew what to do to get out. I had to get people to focus. And one of the things that told me that we could evacuate in an orderly way at that time, because I wasn't smelling smoke, my 5th guide dog, Roselle, wasn't in any way determining that she was in any kind of danger. When the plane hit the building and then the building stopped moving around, she came out from under my desk. I took her leash. I told her to heel, which meant to come around on my left side, which she did. She sat down and she was just yawning and going, "Who woke me up? I was sleeping really good over there and now I'm awake. What's going on?" You know, she didn't give any indication of fear, which told me that we could try to evacuate in an orderly way. Now, could that have changed? Sure, but I've got to go by the information that I have at the time. People say to me all the time, "Well, of course you didn't know that an airplane hit the building." Well, my response is, "Are you really that dumb?" The reality is I was on the south side of the building on the 78th floor, and the airplane hit between floors 93 and 99, so I just average it to 96, on the north side of the building. No one knew on my side of the building what had happened. And in fact, going all the way down the stairs, the only thing that we knew was that an airplane hit the building, and we only knew that because as we started down, I began smelling an odor, and I realized after about 4 floors I was smelling the fumes from burning jet fuel. And I observed that to other people, and we all agreed an airplane must have hit the building, but we didn't know what was going on. Blindness had nothing to do with it, and people need to get over that. It's like people have misconceptions about guide dogs. I see still all the time how Michael Hinks' guide dog led him out of the World Trade Center. That's a bunch of bull. My guide dog did not lead me out of the World Trade Center. In fact, for part of the time when the stairwell was really crowded, I couldn't even use the harness. Roselle walked behind me kind of at heel because it was the only way for us to go down the stairs and not take up too much room on the stairs. But it was my job to know where to go and give her commands when I could when we're using the harness, and then she followed those commands. And I also worked really hard to make sure that she knew I was okay by praising her all the time. Good dog, Roselle! What a good job! Good girl! You're doing a great job! All the way down the stairs. Now, the other side effect of that was a lot of people heard me, and I've actually had people come up to me many years later and say, we entered the stairwell and you were passing us by, and we heard you talking to your dog, and you sounded so confident, we just followed you down the stairs. And the reality is that, um, that was, that was part of what we had to do, but I had to make sure that Rozelle knew I was okay too. If she became fearful, I would know it by the way she acted, but she didn't. And she obviously knew that I was okay. So she just continued to walk down the stairs and did a great job.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 12:35
Mike, how were you really feeling? So you're describing now how calmness was very important and you're also calming Roselle. But when you smelt that, the engine fuel, how Did fear come into play?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 12:53
So, look, as we'll talk later, I wrote a book that was published last year called Live Like a Guide Dog: True Stories from a Blind Man and His Dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity, and moving forward in faith. And the book really is a solution to something that I realized when the pandemic began, which was that while I was able to focus and go downstairs, I had not really taught other people how they could learn to control fear. You need to understand what fear is and what it's not. That is to say, you can make fear what you want it to be or not. Most people just become very afraid. Something happens they don't expect, they become fearful, they can't make decisions. Fear overwhelms, or as I put it, blinds them. The reality is, that is not the way it has to be. Fear can be a very powerful tool that you can use to help you focus. So was I afraid? Sure. But I was not afraid to the point where I couldn't function. And I used fear and every sense that I had to keep up with everything that I could interpret about what was going on. So yeah, an airplane hit the building. We didn't know where. We didn't know anything about it other than that we, we weren't encountering fire or anything going down the stairs. And so probably the airplane struck above us, but we didn't know anything about what had happened until after both towers it collapsed. If I had known, it wouldn't, I can safely say, have made a difference to me other than I would have been more alert to helping to keep other people from panicking. Because the bottom line is that, as I said, a mindset kicked in that told me what to do in the case of an emergency as we were going through an emergency.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 14:34
Mike, how many other people were in your office when the—
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 14:38
there were 5, there were 4 or 5 other people in the office. David Frank, who was a colleague from our corporate office, And I think we had 4 or so people who were our first arrivals for as guests. We were going to be holding sales seminars that day to teach other people how to sell our products. So when everything started to happen, they began to scream and David was saying, we got to get out of here right now. And I said, slow down, David. No, we got to get out of here. Slow down, David. And then he used the big line as I love to describe it. You don't understand. You can't see it. The problem was not what I didn't understand and what I didn't see. It was what David wasn't seeing. Which, as I mentioned earlier, was Roselle being very calm and not indicating fear at all. So I knew from Roselle's attitude and actions that we could try to evacuate in an orderly way because she wasn't exhibiting fear. I got David to focus. I said, get our guests to the stairs. He saw fire above us, um, and, and there were millions of pieces of burning paper, as he describes it, falling outside our windows. So clearly the building was on fire, but it was above us. And we weren't smelling any smoke, we weren't feeling any heat, and Roselle wasn't indicating any fear. So I finally got David to focus. I said, get our guests to the stairs, do not let them take the elevators, because I knew, especially when there's fire, but in any kind of an emergency, take the stairs, don't take the elevators, because if fire gets into the elevator shafts, then anybody in the cars are doomed. And of course that did happen. But not with our people. They did get them to the stairs.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 16:13
Did everyone in the office manage to evacuate safely?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 16:15
Oh yeah, most everyone below where the planes hit got out safely. There were some people who didn't for a variety of reasons, but most of the people who were lost were above where the fires hit.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 16:27
78 floors is, is a lot of floors to have to descend. How long did it take and what was it actually like? Was there a lot of I know you were calm and Roselle was calm. What was it like as you were descending?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 16:41
There were a couple times that some people started to lose it, including David, and we all worked to keep panic from breaking out on the stairs because if panic broke out, then none of us would have made it out. People would have been trampling each other and other things like that. And I and other people were able to help with that. And then David was able to help after he panicked. I snapped at him when he panicked. I deliberately said, "Stop it, David. If Roselle and I can go down these stairs, so can you." And he told me that that brought him out of his funk. And he walked a floor below me and started shouting up the stairs to me everything that he saw. Did I need him to do that? No. Would it have made a difference? Not that I could tell, but the bottom line is he did it. And the reason I mentioned it is that when he was shouting up, "Hey, Mike, I'm on the 47th floor. All's good here." He was giving voice to anyone who could hear him saying, "Somewhere on the stairs, someone's okay." That had to help keep a lot of people from panicking and keep them focused. And we had other times where several of us helped to, to do that sort of thing as well. But the bottom line is, um, we worked to get out without panic, and that was important to do. Yes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 17:53
Wonderful. And you eventually made it down to the street. What was it like when you—
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 17:58
Yeah, you asked, you asked about, you asked about timing. We got to the stairs about 10 to 9, and we got to the 30th floor at 9:10, so 20 minutes. But then firefighters started coming up the stairs, and that slowed us down, as well as, um, just more and more people on the stairs. And so it created kind of a choke point at the bottom of the stairs to get out. So it was 9:35 when we got down to the bottom of the stairs, and I remember checking my watch both times so I knew. And when we got outside of the stairwell into the lobby of Tower 1, there were people on bullhorns shouting, "Go this way, no, don't go outside, go this way, go to the central part of the complex, no, don't go outside, don't go that way, go this way." And we didn't know why they were not being allowed out until later when we learned that people were jumping from above. And so we didn't, nobody wanted anyone to go out. A guy came over from the FBI who said, get you guys where you need to go, to David and me. And I asked him what was going on and he said, no time to tell you. I wish he had told me because I hope you get the idea that for me personally, I'd rather have information. I can deal with information and I can make better decisions the more information that I have. But he didn't know me, so I don't, I don't, I don't worry about that. But anyway, we went through the complex, we went up an escalator, as far away from the towers as we could be, and we got outside. As soon as we got outside, David looked around and he saw fire in Tower 2, and we had no idea where that had come from. But we were told to leave the area, so we went over to Broadway. We walked north on Broadway and went for, well, several streets until we got to a street called Vesey Street, which actually was very close to Tower 2. And, um, we were standing there. David tried— well, David was taking some pictures. I tried to call my wife Karen. I had called her before we left the complex. Before we left our office. And, but then when we were downstairs, I couldn't get through because the circuits were busy. People were saying goodbye to loved ones, as we learned later. But I had just put my phone away and he was putting his camera away after taking pictures of the fire in Tower 2 that was like 100 yards away from us when a police officer yelled, "Get out of here, it's coming down now." And all of a sudden, just, we heard this rumble that became this deafening roar. I described it as kind of a combination of a freight train and a waterfall sound. But Tower 2 was collapsing. Everyone turned and ran. David ran. He was gone. I turned Roselle around and I ran back the way we came. And I remember as soon as I started to run, I said, God, I can't believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. And as soon as I said that to myself, I heard words in my head that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running with Roselle and the rest will take care of itself. I heard those words as clearly as you hear me right now. And I had this absolute certainty that we would be okay, and we were. It was all a matter of getting away from Tower 2. So we were running back from Tower 2, and then I took a right on Fulton Street to try to put a building between— a little bit more between me and the debris that was falling. I mean, I knew what to— where to run as much as anyone did.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 21:09
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 21:10
So you, you ran to safety, out of, out of harm's way, and met up with David again, and then we ran and went down into a subway station where we stayed for about 15 minutes until a police officer came and said, "The air is better up above. You got to leave now." And we went up and then we discovered that Tower 2 had collapsed. And we continued to walk on Fulton Street going west on Fulton. Well, after Tower 2 had collapsed, we kept walking for about 10 minutes after we got out of the subway station where we had stayed. And then we heard that freight train waterfall sound again. That was our tower collapsing. We ducked behind a small retaining wall and waited till everything passes by. And then we got up and David said, oh my God, Mike, there's no World Trade Center anymore. And I asked what he saw. And he said, all I see are fingers of fire and flame, hundreds of feet tall and pillars of smoke. It's all gone. And I waited for about a minute. And then I tried to call my wife, Karen. And this time I got through and she's the first one who told us, how two aircraft had deliberately been hijacked and crashed into the towers, one to the Pentagon, and a fourth was still missing over Pennsylvania.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 22:16
But she was glad to hear your voice?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 22:19
Well, it was tears on both sides of the phone.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 22:23
Yeah, I can imagine. And how was Roselle behaving through, through the aftermath of the collapse?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 22:31
Well, nothing directly threatened her, so she was fine as long as I kept Being focused and praising her, she was good. She did really well. She did everything I could ask of her. Wonderful.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 22:42
And Mike, what was the aftermath like in the following weeks and months after that day?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 22:49
Well, the next day I woke up and I was stiff as a board from all the adrenaline from the day before. I ended up being pretty stiff for about a week. We had an elevator in our house because my wife Karen had been in a wheelchair her whole life. And we were— we had built a house in an area where they only had two-story houses. So we had to put an elevator in. I used the elevator that week more than she did. We called Guide Dogs for the Blind, where I had gotten all of my dogs. And one of the things that we felt was important was to let them know that we were okay, because several people from Guide Dogs had visited us in the World Trade Center. And we knew somebody would eventually remember that. So we called and talked with people. They put out a little story that the media just picked up. On the 14th of September, on the Friday after the World Trade Center attacks, I had the first of 5 interviews on Larry King Live, and the media got really a desire to interview me a lot, and we accepted that. Karen and I felt that if we could help people move on from September 11th, it was worth doing. But then people started calling and saying, "We'd like you to come and tell us what we should learn about September 11th and tell us other lessons that we should know and tell us your story." And by the beginning of 2002, Karen and I decided that teaching life and philosophy was a whole lot more rewarding and satisfying than managing a computer hardware sales team and selling computer hardware. So I switched to being a keynote public speaker. Also worked at Guide Dogs for the Blind as their spokesperson for 6 and a half— well, 5 and a half years— no, 6, 6 years almost. And, and so did that, and I continue to travel and speak to this day. So if anybody's looking for a speaker, love to hear from you to be able to come and talk about lessons to learn, talk about leadership, talk about trust and teamwork, talk about emergency preparedness, the human-animal bond, moving from diversity to inclusion, because Too often we make assumptions about blind and other people with physical disabilities, and the result of that is that we assume things that aren't true. So I, I love to travel and speak and talk about those things, and hopefully the day will come when somebody in Australia will invite me down. We haven't had that happen yet. I've been to New Zealand but not Australia.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 25:12
And in that time, you also wrote 3 books, I believe.
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 25:16
Would you tell us about your 3 books? The first one is called "Thunderdog: The Story of a Blind Man and His Guide Dog and the Triumph of Trust at Ground Zero." And that was really about what happened in the World Trade Center and also lessons I learned growing up as a blind person. That was published by Thomas Nelson, the largest Christian publisher in the world. Now they're part of HarperCollins, but at that time they were separate. It was published in August of 2011, and it went right on the New York Times bestseller list. In one week, it was number one. In 2013, we published "Running with Roselle," which was kind of more for youth, telling the story of me growing up and Roselle growing up and how we met, and not really so much about September 11th, but just our lives together. And then, as I mentioned earlier, at the beginning of the pandemic, I realized that I had not really taught people how they could learn to control fear. So we wrote "Live Like a Guide Dog: True Stories from a Blind Man and His Dogs" about being brave, overcoming adversity, and moving forward in faith. And that is using lessons I've learned from my 8 guide dogs and my wife's service dog Fantasia about, um, about learning to control fear and the fact that you can control it. You don't need to let it overwhelm you. And so I hope people will buy that book and read it. Uh, if they get any of our books, I hope that they'll go to Amazon after they're done and to Reddit and review the books because people who are interested in buying books love to see reviews. So I would really appreciate it if people would review it. But all 3 books are available. They're available on Audible as well. So they're available wherever books are available.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 26:49
Mike, I'm sure that overcoming fear is involved and it takes a lot more than a few sentences to explain how to master fear or overcome fear. But are you able to have a go at briefly explaining what is behind mastering or overcoming fear?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 27:08
The problem with, with us is that we're not taught how to deal with it. We're taught that, well, when something happens, you're going to be afraid and it's okay. Well, it's not okay, especially when it paralyzes you, or as I put it, blinds you so that you can't make decisions. What I tell people to do is to take time at the end of every day to be introspective. Think about what happened today. Think about the things that worked. Think about things that didn't work. No such thing as failure. Something didn't go right, okay, so it didn't. What are you going to do about it? And you should take the time at the end of the day while you're falling asleep to think about these things. What were you afraid of? What, what caused you to react the way you did? And how can you not do that the next time? If you do that consistently, that will set you well on the way to starting to develop your mind as a muscle that won't be afraid of everything that comes along. But you have to make the effort and learn to listen to your inner voice. It is going to tell you the things you need to know as you're going forward. So the important thing to do is to, to listen to that inner voice and, and follow it. One of the great examples I love to give is this, the game Trivial Pursuit. How many times have you ever played Trivial Pursuit if you're listening to this? And they ask, somebody asks a question and you go, oh, I immediately, I know the answer to that. Then you go, That was too easy. That can't really be the answer. And you think about it and you give another answer, but that first answer you thought of was the right answer. That was your inner voice, and you should be learning to listen to that.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 28:41
Was it your inner voice who told you to keep going? That when after the buildings collapsed, you said you heard a voice.
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 28:49
Well, I think that was God talking to me. We call it my inner voice, but it was God by any standard. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 28:58
And Mike, would you like to talk about your faith and how your faith helps you?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 29:05
I have a very strong faith in God. I believe that God talks to all of us. The problem with most of us when we pray, we're telling God what we want. Come on, God knows what we want. The question is, are we willing to listen for answers? That gets back to listening to your inner voice again. You can learn to do that. You can learn to let your mind and God guide you if you choose. And when you do that and you really put that to practice, the bottom line is you'll be a lot less fearful and you'll be able to focus on many things. Don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on the things that you can, which is well over 90% of what we worry about, which causes us more fear. Yes. It doesn't mean don't be aware of the things that you can't control, but don't worry about them. Don't fear them. You can't control them. Leave them alone. Be more concerned and more aware of the things that you can control and learn how to deal with those and listen to your inner voice that will help you and guide you learning how to control the things you can control.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 30:05
Mike, let's talk about guide dogs in, in general. What kind of training goes into preparing guide dogs for service?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 30:15
Most schools tend to breed their own dogs, and they do that because they want to breed specific traits in and out of the dogs, which is one reason they don't use German Shepherds nearly as much as they used to, because if you breed all the herding instinct out of the dog, then it's not really a shepherd anymore. It's different. But the bottom line is that the schools generally breed their dogs, and when when a litter is born, it's assigned a letter of the alphabet. I'm going to use Guide Dogs for the Blind as the example here, because that's what I know. It's when a litter is born, they assign it a letter of the alphabet. So for example, when my 8th guide dog was born, it was an A litter. And they have a big book where they have all the names that are available to them that they've created over the years and that other people have offered. The breeder people who care for the breeder dogs because they don't want them in kennels. They want to put them in people's homes when they're not doing their puppy things. They also can offer names. So like when my 7th guide dog was born, actually Fantasia, who was my wife's service dog, was a breeder for guide dogs. She was born in 2004. We got her in January of 2006. And my 7th guide dog was from an A litter from Fantasia, and we offered the name Africa, and that was the name that was given to one of the dogs. And when my 6th guide dog retired, um, I got a note from Guide Dogs saying, we got another dog for you, the dog's name is Africa. And immediately we knew who Africa was. We knew it before the guide dog school did. It took them a day to figure it out. But my 8th guide dog was also from an A litter And so his name, the name that he was given was Alamo. And so then they evaluate the dogs for a couple of months, seeing how they react to different kinds of noises and different kinds of environments, to stairs and so on, as they grow up enough to do that. Then they go live in the homes of people who volunteer to raise these dogs. I think over there, I know in New Zealand, they call them puppy walkers. And here they're puppy raisers, but they, they will teach the dog basic skills and they teach them how to live in public. Then they go back and they go through the actual training. And it's evolved a little bit over the years. So, for example, now one of the things that they do that they didn't do for the longest time with guide dogs is they use a device called a clicker. That is a piece of technology that you get. And what it allows you to do is to actually click. It's like a cricket. You remember those crickets, those toys? It makes a sound. And the idea behind the clicker is that what it does is when the dog does something that you approve of, you immediately click. And when you click, what that does is it tells the dog instantly you approve of what the dog did. And then you also will give it a— we give it food rewards as well. So it's a very powerful tool that has actually helped to enhance training over what it used to be. So clicker training, food rewards, and so on are part of what are used today. But Um, they've also been able to shorten the length of time it takes to train a dog from 6 months to 2 or 3 months. And they're just as well, if not better trained than they ever were. But we learn to be dog trainers. I mentioned that we learned to build a team, but we also have to learn the techniques to train a dog because the bottom line is that just because we get a dog, it's not going to stay trained unless we keep up the training. So we have to keep that going too. And Mike, is there a process of matching, matchmaking the dog with the person? They have probably a pretty huge file on me that goes back 8 dogs. But yes, there is. They look at all they can find out about each person, how fast they walk. They actually come and meet you ahead of time, and they take you on a simulated guide dog walk called a Juno walk, where a trainer holds a harness and You follow it and the trainer will tell you what commands to give. And they want to see how well you know your area, how oriented you are, um, how fast you walk, how you move when you tell the dog to turn and how that works. They learn everything they can about you. Where are you going to live? What's your environment? What is it you're going to need a dog to do? And they use all of that to help draw conclusions about which dog to give to each person. And generally it works out pretty well. Sometimes fairly well, very rarely it doesn't, but it can. But, but by and large, the idea is that they try to match the dog personality to the person personality as well. So that all of those things come into play. And when it's all done, they give you a dog and you work with the dog. You still may find out that there is something that causes the dog not to to be the right fit for you. It doesn't happen often where the trainer sees something that they believe would make that dog not the best match. That's okay. Then they find another dog. But mostly it works out really well. They've got this down to an art and a science as to how to do it.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 35:45
Hmm. And Mike, what are some protocols the public should know about how to behave around working guide dogs?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 35:54
Guide dog and harness do not touch. Guide dog and harness do not talk to dog. Period. End of report. Don't. You can ask me if you can pet my dog, and if I have time, I will stop and I'll say, "Sure, let me take the harness off," because I want the dog to distinguish between having the harness on and working and having the harness off and being able to relax. I had one person who came up and said, "I want to pet your dog. Can I pet your dog?" And I said, "No," but she started petting the dog immediately, and I knew she was because the dog was looking over toward her and so on. So I gave a little bit of a tug on the leash and I said, you know, "Leave it." And the woman said, "Don't be mad at the dog. I was petting the dog. Yell at me." I said, "No, you don't understand. The dog did something the dog knew it wasn't supposed to do. I'm going to deal with the dog and then I'll deal with you." You know, but the bottom line is don't interact with the dog. Now, I personally, if a child wants to pet the dog, I'll always stop and let the child do that. I've often heard when a child says to a parent, I want to pet the dog, and the parent says, no, that dog might bite, and all that. I'll stop and I'll take the harness off and I'll say, no, the dog won't bite, come on over and say hello. And I want the child to always learn to be comfortable around a dog. I, I will give them advice like, just put your hand out, let the dog sniff you, don't pet the dog until the harness is off, and things like that. But I will always take the time to talk to a child.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 37:19
What are your dogs like? Like your, your current dog and, and your other dogs, what are they like when they're off duty? I imagine they still have rules.
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 37:29
Well, they're like normal dogs anyway, but the difference between them and a lot of dogs is they have rules to live by. Don't jump up on furniture, um, don't jump up on people, don't just pick things up and eat. Um, I have a cat, don't chase the cat. Well, the dog and the cat have both been raised around dogs and cats. So they, they actually do really well together, but I have rules. And as long as I convey those rules by, um, by working with the dog, so the dog knows what the rules are, then, um, all is well. Um, and so I set the rules. The dog wants me to be the pack leader and to tell them what the rules are. Because they want to please. And so I also always tell him he's doing a great job, good dog, because of that.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 38:18
Yes. So I think you said earlier you've had 8 guide dogs over your life. Has there been any one dog that has stood out to you or has been quite— you've had a special bond with?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 38:30
You know, you get a real bond with all of them. I mean, clearly Roselle was an— I don't— I think other dogs could have done what she did, but she was the one who was there and she did really well. I think Alamo could do that. But Roselle was there, so certainly there's a bond second to none with her. But I think they're all, they're all great dogs. And it's a matter of building a trusting relationship. And when there is a two-way relationship like that, it's as good as it gets. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 39:01
Yeah. And Mike, when they grow old and it's time for them to retire, what happens to them, and how was that— how was their departure for you emotionally?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 39:14
Well, if I can, I will keep the dog. There have been a couple of instances where we couldn't. My third guide dog, Klondike, retired as we were getting ready to move to New Jersey. And I knew that, and my wife knew that Klondike wouldn't be able to really deal health-wise with that overly well. He had epilepsy, although we had it under control, but he was just a dog that had some medical conditions. So we let Guide Dogs for the Blind find him a home. Africa, when she retired in 2018, we already had Fantasia, as I mentioned, and we were going to be getting a new guide dog. And from a wheelchair, Karen was of the opinion she'd have a really hard time caring for two dogs. So we let Africa's puppy raisers come and get her. I'll never forgive Africa for this, but she walked out the door and didn't even look back. No, it was great. We visited her several times after that. It was great. But, but, you know, sometimes it happens. But if I can keep the dog, I will.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 40:20
Right. And Mike, what is life like for you today?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 40:24
Well, my wife passed away after we were married 40 years in 2022. So, it's me, Alamo, and Stitch the cat. And we do fine. We keep each other company and it all works out well. So, I have no real major complaints there. I continue to travel and speak and look for more speaking engagements. And I think that's important to be able to do. So, I work at it. I also have a podcast called Unstoppable Mindset that we have. And it's a lot of fun, and we ought to talk to you about coming on. But it's a wonderful thing. So I keep busy. Yeah, great.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 41:07
And obviously, guide dogs have been a huge— have had a huge impact in your life. Are there— what other tools or technology has been of assistance to you with your blindness?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 41:21
Well, lots. It's like, what technology has helped anybody who can see, right? I mean, it's the same kind of question. The reality is there are certain kinds of technologies I use, like something called a screen reader that verbalizes whatever text comes across my computer screen. I use a program called JAWS, stands for Job Access with Speech. It's the most common screen reader today. I was involved in the original development of the Kurzweil reading machine that Ray Kurzweil developed back in the mid-1970s, was a machine that first time anyone could— had developed a technology to be able to look at a printed or typed or a page with both print and typing on it and read that page out loud. He wanted to use the machine with his first application to make it possible for blind people to read. So I've used that. I use other technologies. I have a product that I've been using, I also helped bring it to market, called Aira. Artificial Intelligent Remote Assistance, and it's what's called a visual— uses what are called visual interpreters. So Aira, using either glasses or a smartphone, can allow a person who is trained— they're literally trained to do it— to look at whatever is around us. They have access to GPS information and other things. So I can go to an airport, for example, I can go to Dallas-Fort Worth Airport and see I need to get to gate D6. And I'm at gate A20, and the agent can see the signs to direct us to the escalator to go up and get onto the SkyLink train to then go over to Terminal D. And we go to what's called the Low D Side. We get off and go to gate D6, and the agent can help me get there. So it is a way of getting access to visual information that otherwise isn't available to me. I also use ChatGPT to do some work and other artificial intelligence things as well. And of course, use a regular computer. I just have a standard keyboard like anyone else does. I've learned to touch type a long time ago. So a lot of technology. You, you know, sighted people use light bulbs, right? When Thomas Edison and others invented the electric light bulb back in 1878, that was a way to deal with your disability of light dependence. Because you don't do well in the dark. But the reality is we spent so much time developing artificial light for you that you don't realize how much it just covers up your disability until suddenly the power goes out and you're running around trying to find a smartphone or a flashlight. But the reality is— or candles. But the reality is it is a disability every bit as much as blindness, but we've spent a whole lot more time trying to get technology to make it possible for you to function in that environment than we have to give me access to the same kinds of information and technologies in the way that I need them.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 44:16
Mike, what are some misconceptions about blindness that you've experienced with people with sight?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 44:24
Well, I mentioned about people saying how my dog led me out because they don't think I can do that myself. People think the unemployment rate around the world is between 70 and 75% of employable blind people. And it's not because blind people can't work, it's because sighted people think blind people can't work. We don't get access to the opportunities. There are too many assumptions about what I can and can't do, rather than recognizing that while I may do things in a slightly different way than you, I can still do them. I've driven a car, and the time will come when there will be more opportunity to do that, not just with autonomous vehicles, but the technology actually exists that can allow me to get behind a driver's steering wheel in a car, in a driver's seat, and drive it just like you do. It's all about information access. So the misconceptions are that blindness is a serious problem and you can't do things if you got it. People fear it. And none of that should be the case. But we really aren't doing enough to teach people that that's the situation. And the blindness isn't the problem, it's their attitudes about blindness. I was at a store once when a young man came up to me and he said, "I'm sorry." And I said, "You're sorry?" I didn't even know this kid. "Why are you sorry?" "Because you can't see." I went, "Really? I'm sorry that you can. Let me tell you why." We didn't get to go much further than that because his mother came and grabbed him. "Don't talk to him." You know, it's the usual sort of thing.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 45:55
Wow, that would have been interesting to continue that conversation with him. Oh, would have.
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 46:00
He would have gone away more educated.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 46:02
Yes, yes. Mike, what's one thing you wish sighted people understood better about blindness?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 46:10
That we're as normal and as human and as capable as you are. Eyesight isn't the issue, except the fact that there's more than one way to do something, and eyesight isn't the only way to do it.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 46:22
Hmm. Okay. And looking back, what did that day of September 11th, what did that teach you about life?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 46:34
Well, it, as much as anything, proved everything I felt about being blind in life, that it proved it all to be true. It proved that teamwork is an important thing. It proved that I could work with a guide dog and we could function even in the most adverse circumstances possible. It demonstrated that the reality is that we all can learn to do things to help us be able to function more intelligently and less fearfully in our lives if we teach ourselves to do that. So as I tell people today, I used to say I'm my own worst critic. I won't do that anymore. Um, I have learned to say I'm my own best teacher because in the reality of life. I am the only one who could truly teach me. People can give me information, but I have to be the one to internalize it and teach myself. And if I make a mistake, I'm not going to criticize myself for it anymore. Like I said earlier, I'm going to ask myself, what did I learn from this? I'm going to be my own best teacher. It's a much more positive thing to do.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 47:37
Yes, it is. And Mike, where can people learn more about you and, and, and your books And where can they— how can they buy your books?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 47:47
They can buy the books anywhere books are sold. They can go to Amazon and Audible and so on. They can go to my website, www.michaelhingson.com. That's M-I-C-H-A-E-L-H-I-N-G-S-O-N.com. They can learn about me as a speaker there as well. I also work with a company called AccessiBe that helps make websites more inclusive for people with a variety of disabilities. AccessiBe is spelled A-C-C-E-S-S-I capital B-E. So they can go to www.accessibe.com and actually get a free audit of their website so they can see how accessible or inclusive it is. And they can even get technology from AccessiBe very inexpensively to help them make it more accessible if they choose. Or they can reach out to me. Best way to reach me through email is speaker, S-P-E-A-K-E-R, michaelhinkson.com. Love to hear from you, and of course, as I said, love to get an opportunity to come down there to Australia. I want to meet a kangaroo.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 48:48
Um, Mike, before we finish, we're able to meet Alamo. He's still there with you.
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 48:54
Oh, let's see if I can get him to, uh, make an appearance. Ali, Ali, Ali, come here. He's awake. Well, he's awake. He's He's, he's ready to eat dinner. Let's see if we can do this. Come here, come on. Yeah, I know.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 49:08
Come on, see your tail. I can see your tail wagging up your head.
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 49:13
Lift up your head. Hello.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 49:15
There, there he is. There he is. Beautiful. How old is Alamo?
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 49:21
Alamo is, um, 9, 9 and a quarter.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 49:31
And what is— how many years do they typically work for? It varies.
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 49:36
I had my second guide dog, Holland, work 13 and a half years. Typically they work 7 to 9 years. I think Alamo is going to go a lot more than that. He does really well. He's unflappable. And I just think he's great and will continue to be a good guide dog for many years. Wonderful.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 49:55
Mike, it's been such a pleasure, a privilege speaking with you today. Thank you very much for your time and sharing your experience, your story, and your wisdom with us. Thank you, my pleasure.
Michael Hingson (Guest) · 50:07
I hope this has been helpful, and like I said, if anyone wants to speak or wants to chat more, reach out. Love to talk with you.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 50:16
Follow the sun. Animals and Us is a production of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Xavier Rudd for his permission to use Follow the Sun as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to Kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening. And we'll see you next time. Brand new moon, brand new sun.
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