Lynn Smith Gregory · 51 min
Born into Mormon royalty as the great-great-grand niece of Joseph Smith, Lynn Smith Gregory risked losing her entire family and identity to pursue truth, and found a deeper spirituality on the other side.
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Lynn Smith Gregory grew up as the great-great-grandniece of Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church, in a family held as Mormon royalty. Her identity was built on this connection, but so was the pressure to be perfect. Her father was strict and physically abusive; her mother stayed on the sidelines. When Lynn went to Utah State University instead of Brigham Young University by chance, she took a Bible literature class from a non-Mormon professor who challenged her to examine other historical accounts of Joseph Smith. What she found shattered everything. Scholars had documented that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy with girls as young as 14, married the wives of men he sent away on missions, and was fundamentally not the man the church had taught her he was. At 19, Lynn moved overnight from belief to atheism, terrified by the loss of her identity, family, and the meaning of life itself.
She told her family and the church leadership she no longer believed, then left Utah for New York City before her graduate program even began. In the city during a personal crisis, Lynn experienced what she describes as a spiritual moment: a sudden, undeniable feeling of unconditional love and connection to something greater than herself. This shifted everything. She spent years breaking every rule the Mormon Church had forbidden, from coffee to premarital sex, eventually becoming part of the Studio 54 scene in 1980s New York. But she was running from trauma, not healing it. Therapy became her turning point, giving her tools to understand both her dysfunctional family and the structure of the church itself.
Lynn found her way back to her siblings by offering to photograph their Mormon weddings, taking a role outside the temple where she was not permitted. Over time, with work and patience, her family opened. She now helps others navigate religious trauma and family estrangement, drawing on what she learned: healing requires both a therapist and a community of people who understand, realistic expectations about what a dysfunctional family can offer, and the willingness to find common ground where it exists. Her spirituality today is not tied to any religion, but to serving others from a place of fullness rather than desperation.
“I felt like the floor had just dropped out on me.”
“The need to belong particularly to family is primal. It is not just another feeling.”
“What was very beneficial though was going to therapy. And that was one of the first things I did that gave me some insight and some tools to understand my experience.”
The hero, today
Lynn Smith Gregory was told as a child not to ask critical questions about her faith, and that doubt itself was something to doubt, which left her unprepared to examine evidence when she finally encountered it. When Lynn discovered the historical truth about Joseph Smith contradicted everything she had been taught, she experienced it as complex trauma: her entire worldview changed overnight, and she felt sad, angry, betrayed, and foolish all at once. Lynn moved to New York and broke every rule the Mormon Church had imposed on her, but she recognizes now that she was running from trauma rather than healing it, and the party scene was not the path to addressing her pain. Lynn learned that healing requires both a therapist to process the past and a new community of people who understand religious trauma and family estrangement, so that reconnection with family can happen from a place of strength rather than desperation. Even though Lynn's beliefs about God and religion diverged entirely from her family's, she realized their core values were the same, and by focusing on common ground rather than religious differences, she was able to rebuild relationships that had seemed lost. Lynn now tells people considering reconnection with estranged family to first do the work of healing their anger, establish a support system outside the family, and be realistic about what a dysfunctional family is actually capable of offering.
Yes. Lynn Smith Gregory is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Lynn Smith Gregory was told as a child not to ask critical questions about her faith, and that doubt itself was something to doubt, which left her unprepared to examine evidence when she finally encountered it.
When Lynn discovered the historical truth about Joseph Smith contradicted everything she had been taught, she experienced it as complex trauma: her entire worldview changed overnight, and she felt sad, angry, betrayed, and foolish all at once.
Lynn moved to New York and broke every rule the Mormon Church had imposed on her, but she recognizes now that she was running from trauma rather than healing it, and the party scene was not the path to addressing her pain.
John Milham (Host) · 00:04
Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. In this episode, John Millum is joined by Lynn Smith Gregory. Lynn grew up as the great-great-grandniece of Joseph Smith in a devoted Mormon family. She faced strict expectations and pressure to be perfect, but her journey led led her to question her faith and family traditions. After stepping away from the church, Lynne faced the pain of separation and finding her place in the world. Through therapy and self-reflection, she overcame these challenges, learned self-acceptance, and discovered her own sense of spirituality. Lynne now helps others on their journeys of healing and belonging. Enjoy this episode with Lynne Smith Gregory. So, uh, Katsuki listeners, Welcome back to another Kintsugi Heroes session. I've got a hero with a story that matters, as always. Incredibly excited to talk to Lynn Smith Gregory. Welcome to Kintsugi Heroes.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 01:17
Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here and it's so much fun talking to someone across such a long distance, across the pond.
John Milham (Host) · 01:29
Yeah, it seems effortless really, but for all that weight. Thousands, tens of thousands of kilometers. So, Lynn, for the listeners, you are a person who brings an incredible family and lived experience to our chat today as being a Smith, right, which is the founder of the Mormon Church. And your story of being raised in that particular religion is a powerful example of how family and religion and society can interact in ways that are sometimes unresourceful. And fascinating to talk about that. Of course, you have a— you've written the book and you've got a memoir coming out very soon about your experiences. But now you help people come to terms with their experience. And sometimes that is about behavior or situations that aren't good for people. Right? So that's involved trauma or, or abuse. So tell us a little bit about both, uh, where you come from, which is— I know you're living in Savannah, Georgia now, which is wonderful, right? But, um, where you come from, both, you know, emotionally and spiritually, and now what it's like to be called to share your experience for the benefit of others.
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Lynn learned that healing requires both a therapist to process the past and a new community of people who understand religious trauma and family estrangement, so that reconnection with family can happen from a place of strength rather than desperation.
This conversation includes mormon royalty, the weight of perfection, the atheist professor's challenge, the story falls apart, instant atheist and the costly confession.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 02:50
Well, I am the great great-grandniece of Joseph Smith, who was the founder of the Mormon Church. And for generations, for generations, my family were devoted members. And because of our bloodline connection, we were held in very high esteem. We were considered Mormon royalty, so to speak. And I— my whole identity was about my connection to this famous and revered figure. And I was a devout believer. I was one of 9 children, third to the oldest, and I completely absorbed all the teachings and the narrative that the church told me about the early history of the church and about my famous great-great-uncle.
John Milham (Host) · 03:52
Did you feel the weight of your ancestor? Like, was it a thing that you walked in yourself?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 04:00
Oh, absolutely. I— not only was it core to my identity, but my family was looked to as an example. So there was a lot of pressure to be perfect, perfectly obedient, better than anybody else at everything we did. So school and even sports. We were blessed. So we were expected to be an example in all ways. And so I felt the pressure of being— having to be perfect. And my father was a very strict— in today's terms would be considered downright abusive because he whipped us when we disobeyed. I mean, we were scared of my father and my mother, which is typical in a Mormon family. My father was a patriarch. And she was his helpmate, and she did not intervene ever. She didn't make decisions. She was definitely on the sidelines, and I think she was a little afraid of him too. So I grew up in this environment, and I just assumed everybody had some sort of version of this in their home. But I went away to a non-Mormon University almost by chance. I decided to graduate a year early from high school and I missed the deadline for Brigham Young University, which is the Harvard for Mormons. So I missed the deadline because I didn't graduate. I had to take some summer classes. So Utah State had a rolling admissions policy and I was able to enroll there. And I thought, I'll do this for a year and then transfer to BYU. But when I got there, I took a class from a professor who was not only not a Mormon, but an atheist. And he found out very quickly who I was. And he challenged me to take his The Bible is Literature class the next semester and warned me that I would be expected to defend my faith. And I thought, well, I'm up for that challenge. I'll show him a thing or two. And so I knew I needed to read everything I could about the Mormon Church that he had read. And for the first time, I had to send away— they weren't— these books and articles weren't in my library in Utah, but I sent away for them. And when I got them, I realized that there was other narratives of the Mormon Church and Joseph Smith that I had never heard. And it blew my mind. It was a very different story than the one I had been told growing up. And it was harmful. It made Joseph Smith look like a con artist, a criminal, a womanizer, liar. He was a cult leader. When I discovered that Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy, which the Mormon Church at that time denied, and that sometimes the girls were as young as 14, and that he often married the wives of his friends that he sent away on missions and in their absence married their wives. I was just absolutely shocked. The problem was, is that these scholars and other historians made a very compelling story. They had journals and newspaper articles and facts to support this narrative. And it was impossible to dismiss it. And at that point, I didn't know what to do. I was shattered. I felt like the floor had just dropped out on me. It took a little while for me to absorb it, but I realized I just couldn't believe the narrative that the Mormon Church was telling me with all this compelling evidence against it.
John Milham (Host) · 08:27
Did you find it was hard to bring, you know, any kind of critical thinking, right? You know, were you because you had been immersed, right, from, you know, from generational understanding of who you were and what was right and what was wrong. How on earth did you find that sort of critical faculty needed to examine other evidence?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 08:49
Well, that was the problem. And I didn't have much critical thinking, because if I had questions in the Mormon Church, I was told not to worry about it. Everything would be answered in due time, or when we got to heaven. Things that didn't make sense to me, and to sit down and be quiet, which is typical, particularly for women, because women are not really first-class citizens in the Mormon Church. They hold no leadership positions. They are not the patriarch of the family. They can't hold the priesthood. Which is the Mormon function of acting in God's name. So their real role is that of wife and mother. I realized that I didn't believe in the narrative. I didn't know how I was going to possibly tell my family. It would mean losing my family and my community. And all my friends. I was so devastated. I thought, if the Mormon Church is a fraud, then maybe God is a myth as well. And so I instantly became an atheist. And of course, that's only something a 19-year-old can do, and one without a lot of training in critical thinking. You know, that was not encouraged in the Mormon Church. In fact, the saying is doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. I mean, what kind of logic is that? I don't understand.
John Milham (Host) · 10:31
It's got a pithy ring to it though.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 10:33
It's like, exactly. It's a good soundbite.
John Milham (Host) · 10:36
Like, you know, there's a reason we find comfort in these, in compliance, right? It's like a, it's a shortcut. It's, it takes away some of the challenge and the accountability and responsibility. As a young person going through education and finding out information that was like your world was like being challenged. Is there collateral damage, right? Are you hurting as well as opening up? Is this— is the damage being unearthed or is the damage being caused by your conflict, internal conflict?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 11:12
I think it's complex trauma. Your worldview is changed suddenly overnight and you don't know what to believe. I went through such the gamut of emotions— sad, angry. I felt betrayed. I felt foolish. I felt like my professor thought I was an idiot that I would believe such a stupid story about some 14-year-old boy being told he's going to restore the proper religion to the earth because all the rest of them don't have it, right? And that he finds these golden plates in a hillside that was conveniently very close to his house that happened to contain the record supposedly of the indigenous people who lived in North and South America. And of course, this was just a complete fabrication.
John Milham (Host) · 12:18
The story of Joseph Smith is fascinating, right? And so your great-great-grandfather was amazing guy, right, who, you know, had a vision as big as his sort of flexible attitude towards the truth. Like, just that vision of, of I can create an entire new world.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 12:36
And that takes quite an ego. He was a narcissist. And, you know, really had, like I said, a womanizer and a predator. Um, he was bigger than life, very charismatic, obviously. I don't know though that the Mormon Church would have grown as large as it did because lots of other little religions were popping out at the same time. But when Joseph Smith was killed by a mob who discovered that he was practicing polygamy, and he was lying about it. He was killed, and my great-great-grandfather was supposed to become the next prophet and leader of the church. But Brigham Young also wanted that position, and he had his cohorts poison my great-great-grandfather. And so Brigham Young became the next leader, and he's the one that took the Mormons out to Salt Lake City and established the Mormon Church in isolation. Nobody else wanted Utah. They wanted to go to California or someplace else, but Utah was sort of a desert. That allowed the Mormons to thrive in isolation and double down with their strange customs of polygamy and sort of a communist system of sharing wealth.
John Milham (Host) · 14:09
A very strict code as well too. So, you know, when you mention your father being strict, there's, you know, there's good and bad, I suppose, in every code, right? It's important to have codes and understand how our behavior reflects our values. But it's interesting because in all of that, code gives you very solid grounding for taking on the world. When you were exploring, you would have challenged that code, surely, and that would have taken away how you understood your place in the world, and that would have been, you know, pretty destabilizing, I imagine.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 14:47
Yeah, I agree. I didn't choose during my teenage years to rebel because I was my father's favorite, and the system was working well for me. So I got a lot of attention and accolades for being a high achiever in school, etc. So my parents did not expect me out of anybody in the family to be the one to leave the church. So it came as a shock and led to some really difficult conversations. I was afraid I might be not only excommunicated from the Mormon Church, but disowned by my family. I think my father had a soft spot for me, and so he didn't. And the Mormon Church didn't want the publicity of disowning a descendant of a prophet, so they didn't excommunicate me either. But ultimately, the Mormon Church found out I stopped going to church, etc. They came looking for me, and I told them I was an atheist. I I didn't believe in the Mormon Church, and I knew they were going to go immediately back and report to the bishop, who's like the pastor, and he would go on and tell the church authorities and my family. So at that point, I had to tell my family, and I also made plans to leave Utah because I knew there was no way for me to stay in Utah and embarrass, shame my family. So I decided to go to grad school and I applied. I was accepted in New York City and left for New York sight unseen without a— I needed a job and a place to live because I was at a year before my program started. So I just up and moved to New York City. And that was shock. That was another shock to my system because Salt Lake City and New York City have nothing in common.
John Milham (Host) · 16:57
Even in Australia, we kind of get that. Your Found study almost— was that like a gateway drug into— not into atheism, it's like, you know, like you're engaging with the world now in a different way, right? And of course, education had sort of taken you to ask questions about your, um, upbringing, right?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 17:20
I took a lot of psychology and philosophy classes and suddenly understood things like groupthink and brainwashing and could connect the dots between my experience and really logic. Science became the altar that I worshiped at. I, I didn't believe in God. I felt let down by God. Well, that if a God existed, It wasn't a God I wanted to know. And so my book talks about what happened after I, you know, through my experience, what it was like growing up as in that kind of venerated place in the church and then being on my own in New York City and how I found that my atheism was ultimately not a satisfying path for me.
John Milham (Host) · 18:15
Were you scared at that point?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 18:17
I was scared. I didn't understand for the first time what was the meaning of life. Why were we here on the planet? I mean, Mormons had such certainty. They had all the answers tied up in a nice little bow. And suddenly I didn't know anything about anything. And that was terrifying. It was an existential crisis. But I had a personal crisis and I won't go into it, but I do in the book. That led me to have a spiritual experience. And that I instantly changed my belief from being an atheist to understanding that there was absolutely no question of power greater than myself in the universe. That led me to the path that I'm on today, which is, you know, better understanding how we as human beings connect And what is meaningful? And how do we help each other on this journey back to our home?
John Milham (Host) · 19:23
And by that, by home, are you talking about spiritual home and being comfortable in yourself where you are?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 19:32
Yeah, both. It took a while to unpack all the levels of brainwashing. That the dogma had created for me. Not only women's place in the world, what they were capable of, but also a sense of never being good enough. That's a very big theme in the Mormon Church, that you're striving for perfection. So you were never okay. You were earning your way to heaven. And in my family, that was true as well. We— I felt like I was loved because of my accomplishments. So learning what it was like to be okay in your own skin, learning to trust myself, trust my thinking again, that there is ultimately answers for me in the self-acceptance, self-love, and being of service to others. I don't belong to a church, but my spiritual life is probably the single most important thing to me. I'm spiritual, not religious. I'm wary of all religions, I guess.
John Milham (Host) · 20:46
I think it's very important to, you know, to separate spirituality and religion. Right. And I find it really fascinating that the idea of, you know, the Mormon Church provides such a rigorous framework for practicing spirituality, almost as if you're sort of channeling Joseph Smith, who says the more you step out, the more fragile the belief framework becomes because it's created by someone. Right. And that's true in so many religions. But it means that you're focusing on external validation. So when you challenge it, are you susceptible to finding something else? Right. You said atheism. I was an evangelical atheist at one stage. And so substituting until you find a way to integrate your own spirituality, when it becomes an inside-out process. Did you have that process? Did you find a way to turn it around and become who you are spiritually?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 21:51
Yes, I, I feel very lucky. I was graced with what I can only call a spiritual experience where I was desperate for answers, and I wished that I believed in God for the first time in a very long time. And I remember feeling a warmth just envelop me and peace, the feeling that I was unconditionally loved and accepted exactly the way I was, and that I didn't have to do anything to earn this love and acceptance and belonging, and that I was connected to everything and everyone in the universe on a fundamental level. And it was such a powerful experience. It was undeniable to me. I remember looking in the mirror and going, is this God? Are you God? You know, and it was just like that. I realized I wasn't an atheist. I knew for me that the truth was that there was energy creator, a divine source or whatever you want to call it that existed. And I was connected to it. I wanted to figure out how to stay connected to it.
John Milham (Host) · 23:19
Before that, and then post, you know, post having the security of your Mormon faith and then before finding the peace of your spirituality, you would have had the idea of being released from a warm, safe room, right? And then you go, I'm free, I'm running amok. Did you push yourself psycho-emotionally?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 23:40
I was a pretty disciplined type A person, and I actually made a list when I became an atheist of all the rules I was going to break. And I couldn't wait to get to them, you know, because the Mormon Church is very strict. No drinking, no smoking, no playing cards, no gambling, no coffee, tea, and no drugs, of course. No premarital sex. So the first thing I decided to do was have a drink because I was at college and all my friends were drinking. They were also having Sex. But that was a little bigger step that I was willing to take. I started with some smaller ones. I mean, swearing. But yes, I systematically broke all the rules I could think of. When I went to New York City, it was the '80s and it was a crazy time in New York City. It was a little dangerous, but it was awash in alcohol and cocaine. And nightclubs like Studio 54. And I became part of the Studio 54 scene, and I talk about that in my book.
John Milham (Host) · 24:52
So when you're doing this, when you're exercising your rights, I can, you know, like, there's no judgment, sounds amazing as a uni student. There was healing to be done, wasn't there? Like, from, from your upbringing, from playing a role, being restricted, being being oppressed in some ways, right? Being abused in some ways. So in that freedom, it's hard to also find healing.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 25:16
It was my way of running from the trauma and not looking at it. And so it wasn't until I decided that the party scene was not for me that I could start healing and stop running. I was running too hard, too fast. To really think about it.
John Milham (Host) · 25:38
What did healing begin to look like? How did you start to feel like you were in control of healing? So often we're looking outside, right? We're praying for healing or we're seeking gurus or taking the red or the blue pill.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 25:54
Yeah, I spent a lot of time in the self-help section of the bookstore. What was very beneficial, though, was going to therapy. And that was one of the first things I did that gave me some insight and some tools to understand my experience, both of my dysfunctional family and also the dysfunctional structure of the Mormon Church. That helped, but it's like peeling an onion. You think, okay, I'm healed, and then you get triggered by something new and you realize, oh, there's that too. You know, it's a very big purity culture where, for example, as a lesson in purity, my teacher brought in two white cakes side by side. And I just assumed this is the treat we got after the lesson. And instead she said, look at these two white cakes. They represent the body as a temple. They're pure and white. And then she reaches down into a paper bag and brings out a hammer and smashes one cake and it falls off the table in chunks. And she said, this is what happens to you when you let a boy defile you before marriage. So there was a lot of pressure to stay pure and pure, not just like in actions, but in thought. And of course, at the time I said, well, how am I supposed to control my thoughts? And when I asked that question, they basically told me to work harder, pray more, read my scriptures.
John Milham (Host) · 27:38
There's a lot of good in people, you know, being trying to do good and following a code of virtue and purity. So there is a lot to see that positive reinforcement. Did that create? And then, of course, you've had your New York Studio 54 phase. Is that part of the psychosocial kind of challenge you've got to heal?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 28:02
I think, like I said, I was running from truth that scared me. I was running fearful that there was no point to it all. And when I was able to stop and get a hold of myself and going to therapy, Initially, all I could feel was my anger. It wasn't until later when I looked at the bigger picture, could I understand and forgive my parents and even understand the church. You know, the people, Mormons in general, I think are people who genuinely are trying to live by a moral code. It's not lip service that they give on Sunday. But what makes me angry is the manipulation and coercion of the church authorities with the people. I feel like Mormons are exploited. There are no paid clergy in the Mormon Church. Everybody has a job and everybody is working. We have activities in the Mormon Church. Sunday is family home evening. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. You are at the church all nights of the week. So you are very, very busy in this little Mormon bubble. But they're working very hard, but they're not being paid. And yet they are paying 10% of their income to the church in tithing. So the Mormon Church gets it both ways— free labor and a tithe. When the scandal came out, several years ago that the Mormon Church actually had a $100 billion private equity fund, Ensign Advisors. A lot of Mormons were absolutely shocked. Also, at that time, it was revealed that they weren't using the funds for charitable contributions, etc., but were using them to prop up Mormon-owned businesses or buy real estate, etc. And so This led to a lot of people questioning and even leaving the church. When you have a church as wealthy as the Mormon Church, it's second only to the Catholic Church in terms of wealth, has spent less than 1% on charitable services. I mean, I feel I still have a lot of anger about that when I think of people sacrificing and the pressure to pay your tithing in full, and they worried about feeding their children, and yet they will— God's not going to bless them unless they pay their 10%. It makes me angry. I feel like it's exploitative. I'm angry about a couple of other things, particularly the church's stance, uh, on women, but also on the whole LGBTQ population. They're very adamant that there's no place for any of that group, uh, population in the church, which is why Utah has one of the highest suicide rates for gay youth.
John Milham (Host) · 31:27
It seems to be very as focused on type old conservative white men kind of religion. So like so many others, I guess it's a very conservative, traditional take.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 31:42
The Mormon Church spends a lot of money manufacturing this wholesome, family-focused religion, this image, and they encourage Mormon moms to be influencers because they feel like that is bringing people to the church. And these women look perfect with their makeup and their perfect hair and their matching outfits for their 5 children, and they bake their own bread and they have a garden. And it creates a standard or an ideal that other women feel like they have to live up to, which is very harmful. It doesn't surprise me that Utah has the highest rate of antidepressant use among women in the nation. And the contrast between the image they present And I think about when I go through the airport and I see all these white, wholesome, fresh-scrub families, and I'm— I ask myself, where is your transgender kid? Where is your rebellious daughter with tattoos and, you know, a short skirt? They, they get eliminated from the picture. And they're not welcome. And I know too many stories where the coming out as queer or gay or transgender has meant the end of the relationship with the family.
John Milham (Host) · 33:19
Which is one thing I was, you know, I'd like to ask you about because your crimes against the family tradition were as severe, you know, you know, in the same sort of region. And you mentioned earlier your your father had the choice of what to do with you about your status with the church. But of course, when your family and people you love retain a belief system that means that you're dangerous to them, there's a lot of pressure to keep you away.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 33:49
Well, and I made it— I made it easy for them by moving to New York City. It was before social media, so a lot of my behavior went unwatched, and thank goodness for me. However, I was really basically estranged. I couldn't go to my brothers' and sisters' Mormon weddings because they were held in the temple, and I wasn't allowed in a Mormon temple. And that was hard, and they didn't understand why that hurt my feelings. They were like, you're not a Mormon, so why would you want to go? And I'm like, well, a lot of people have weddings where everyone's invited, but they didn't, they didn't see my perspective. And what I have learned is that, and this has been the most helpful thing for me with my family, I decided I wanted to stay connected. And if there was a healthy way to do it where I would not be constantly re-injuring myself with the interaction. And so I decided to proactively find ways to belong in the family outside the normal church-based traditions. For example, I decided to volunteer to be the photographer at the Mormon brothers' and sisters' weddings. You know, after they got married, the ceremony, the reception part, the party part, so that I had a role and I could make a contribution. And I went out of my way to not be critical or judgmental of their choices. And so when they were talking about their church callings, instead of rolling my eyes, I tried to listen respectfully and hoped that they would return the favor. Mostly they did. And that means I'm one of the lucky ones. My family was quite flexible and it didn't stay the same either. My siblings, while they stayed in the church for the most part for years, when my little sister, who was a devoted Mormon, had 9 children, When her son announced that he was gay, that was a watershed moment for her because this child in her family was beloved by everyone. He was kind, gentle, a peacemaker, and she couldn't really reconcile what the Mormon Church said about him as a sinner and an abomination before God. So she left the church, as did his brothers and sisters, except for one. They all just like that. That was it.
John Milham (Host) · 36:49
Such a challenging thing. It must be very difficult to see, to have, um, something so important to you that is, that denies you and denies you access to the, to the world just because it judged as unhelpful or inappropriate. So how did you get over— you know, the tactic of offering service and relevance back to your family, I think, is brilliant. How did you decide to let go of the hurt?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 37:20
I think it was continuing to heal. I know this sounds presumptuous, but I realized that my Mormon brothers and sisters had a smaller version of the world than I did. They did not have a context for what I was experiencing. So I couldn't expect them to understand me or my point of view or my hurt feelings. And I decided it was going to have to be up to me to make the space and to bring, offer the olive branch because my experience was just larger than theirs. And you don't know what you don't know, right?
John Milham (Host) · 38:04
Right. Yeah. So is that how you moved into service for others, like sharing your story and helping others? Was that same thing, right? You're going, well, you know, more information, more acceptance, more normalization of their, of their experience will help them travel that path to healing as well.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 38:25
Yes. I realized that I had something to offer and women particularly found their way to me and wanted to know how to deal particularly with their existing Mormon brothers and sisters and parents when they had left the church. And so of course I shared my experience and what had been helpful to me. But it's important to preface that with a caveat. You know, sometimes there isn't an invitation for reconciliation from the Mormon side of the family. Sometimes when grandchildren are born, that softens the situation a little bit, but I don't suggest that anybody continue to put themselves in a situation that is toxic or abusive. But luckily, when I changed my attitude and I tried to find ways to make a contribution, be of service, my family responded well, and we started having family reunions and spending time with each other. And I avoided topics, and we had ground rules: no discussion of religion or politics.
John Milham (Host) · 39:46
Like any good, um, dinner party these days, right? So it's interesting because you have a concerned around family estrangement from not just a religion, but other— you know, there are many things in society that create any conflict within families. So, you know, breakdowns, the legal separations, you know, and all sorts of things.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 40:08
So I've had people talk to me about that too, and I've spoken to that because I think the rules are the same. And I try to say, you know, try to find Common ground. Focus on common ground. What do you both believe in? Because I found out that even though our beliefs may be different, our values were the same. And so we are more alike than we are different. And by focusing and keeping the conversation there, there's a chance to actually Enjoy each other.
John Milham (Host) · 40:49
Obviously, somebody in a situation like yours where you're on the outside and you've, you've gone on a journey that has taken you way past your original, and now you've chosen to look back and to forgive and to connect if possible. How do you encourage, you know, so often you're going to be met with the anger and the emotion of that, of the separation, right? That's How do you encourage your family or your friends or the community that you've been separated from to open up just to even the possibility of reconciliation?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 41:25
Yeah, in my family, we actually hired a family therapist facilitator when we decided to get together. And that third-party addition made everybody kind of behave better, on their best behavior, so to speak. But it also gave us the tools for how to talk respectfully to each other and to use I statements. You know, I feel this when you say that, you know, when you say you're the reason our family is not going to be together in heaven, that's not going to go anywhere.
John Milham (Host) · 42:09
There was a, um, it was, it's been trendy in recent years, you know, certainly on social media and so on, talking about toxic people, toxic families, toxic, you know, situations. And then, and the, you know, sort of social media advice was to drop, to get away, to banish as much toxic people and toxic things out of your life. But of course, if you're separated from your family and that's been out of a situation that you can call toxic, why do we want to rebuild that relationship? Why is that advice to separate not very good advice?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 42:46
Well, first of all, I think it's important to understand that the need to belong, particularly to family, is primal. It is not just another feeling. When we originated in the tribal culture, belonging meant you were safe. It meant you had food and shelter. So the drive to belong is very deeply ingrained in us. And so if you possibly can have some sort of relationship with a family, I think it meets some of those needs. But I also suggest a couple of things before a person decides to reconnect with their estranged family. I make sure they have support with a therapist, someone they can process this, rehearse with someone if they're not doing it with me, and, and have somebody in their corner and that they've done a lot of the early work of working through their anger so that they're not going to be triggered in that situation, that ex— that initial exchange. They have to be at a certain point in their own healing process before it's safe for them to go back to their family and try to see if there's some way of connecting. The other thing is, is very, very helpful and important that they have a sense of belonging with a new community. Ex-Mormons, other people who've experienced religious trauma or family separation and estrangement, you know, having a new tribe, friends who have your back, who understand how painful this is and what it's been like for you is really important. So those two things, I think, need to be in place before you decide. When I'm talking to somebody about reconnecting, we kind of talk about how crazy the family is, how dysfunctional they are. Is it realistic to expect a good result with this exchange? I mean, are there other issues, deeper issues than just the religious estrangement or political estrangement? I mean, is there alcoholism? Is there mental illness, other kinds of dysfunction at play? And if that's the case, you want to be really careful about setting realistic expectations for what your family is capable of and decide whether or not it's worth it to open that can of worms.
John Milham (Host) · 45:36
Very good advice. From your lived experience and your education, you've moved into serving and sharing with others, you know, serving which is lovely. And so often you see people from a lived experience situation moving into service for other people. Is that part of the journey of healing? I know personally it feels like that.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 45:56
Oh, you are so right. I think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, and he talks about how we can't move on to the next level of authenticity or actualization if our needs for food, shelter, belonging, safety aren't met. And the top level for Maslow would serve us. And I think it's the culmination of having addressed the other needs and adequately taking care of them so that you have something to offer. From a place where a cup that's running over, you're filled up. And that's how I feel. I feel incredible gratitude. Not only that my family responded more lovingly than I expected. Don't get me wrong. I mean, we've had hiccups over the years, but since we've been on this path, I feel grateful for that, that we have to spend time with each other. And enjoy it. So I feel grateful, and out of that gratitude is a willingness to give back. So I don't know all the answers to why we're on the planet and what our purpose is or how it all works. And does God answer some people's prayers but not others? There is a lot of mystery to me in my spiritual life, but I'm content with not having the answers to every spiritual question I have. I'm no longer thinking the answer is outside myself. I think my job is to serve the people around me the best way I possibly can, and that maybe that's as simple as it is.
John Milham (Host) · 47:59
You might not feel like you don't have a lot of answers, but you've certainly answered a lot of questions and thoughts for me today, and I hope for our listeners too. I feel like there's a bunch of myths and misunderstandings about the Mormon Church that we might need to put on the table one day just to say, does it really work like that? What's the saint thing?
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 48:23
But we'll maybe save that for another Well, yes, and my YouTube channel and my website, I have a blog where I talk about Mormon idiosyncrasies, also historical controversies, etc., and explore some of the things you're talking about. Like, my next one coming out is about the magic underwear that Mormons wear, you know, garments.
John Milham (Host) · 48:53
So that's right. There are questions that us, uh, looking in, you know, that we all have encountered Mormon missionaries and had conversations with, with immaculately dressed young people that look, look amazing, right? And, uh, are so polite. But I think, yeah, I'd like to go a little bit under the surface one day. So definitely, you're— maybe you're, uh, you can give us your website.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 49:17
Yeah, it's just Uh, lynsmithgregory.com, and that's Lyn with one N, so L-Y-N, lynsmithgregory.com. And you can find me on YouTube using that, as well as Instagram or Facebook.
John Milham (Host) · 49:34
There's so many questions. I'll look forward to, to diving into some of the, uh, info that you're offering.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 49:41
Sure, I'll send you a copy of my book my memoir when it comes out.
John Milham (Host) · 49:47
I hope it'll be amazing. That's a, um, I, you know, I've been fascinated ever since I first read about Joseph Smith. So, and it's incredible to meet someone connected so closely to a figure that's only been, you know, sort of almost mythical for me. And I'm sure it was probably mythical for many, for you as well.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 50:09
And for me, yeah. When my mother told me stories about my famous great-great-grandfather and great-great-uncle, they were woven in my mind in the same place that pirates and dragons and princesses and pirates were.
John Milham (Host) · 50:29
Amazing stories. Fabulous. But it's been fabulous to hear your insights, to share your experiences, and congratulations on on taking what you have experienced into what you can give for others. That's amazing. A story of resilience, and I'm very, very grateful and pleased that I had a chance to talk. Thank you.
Lyn Gregory (Guest) · 50:50
I'm honored. Thank you for having me.
John Milham (Host) · 50:56
Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lillie for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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