Karen Sander · 37 min
Karen Sander has lived with crippling generalised anxiety disorder since childhood, and has spent six decades refusing to let it stop her from building a remarkable, joy-filled life.
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Karen Sander has lived with generalised anxiety disorder since childhood. For six decades, she has refused to let it stop her from building a life filled with joy, connection, and purpose. Growing up in Little Bay in the 1950s and 60s, Karen was an anxious child despite an outwardly idyllic childhood of horses, swimming, and outdoor freedom. Her parents pushed hard for academic success, and that pressure fed a deep fear of failure that would grip her for decades. By her teens, the anxiety tightened its hold. In her twenties, Karen trained as a teacher and worked for the Education Department, but the constant physical toll, racing heart, sweating, insomnia, inability to eat, became unbearable. At 37, she left teaching and spent ten years working in the film industry, traveling the world as a tutor on set. This gave her breathing room, and it was during this time she first found anti-anxiety medication that didn't carry the addiction risks she had feared. But the real turning point came later. In her 50s, after a two-week stay at Northside Clinic, Karen found medication that worked. More importantly, she discovered that building small successes over time created what she calls a bank account of capability, evidence that despite the anxiety's constant presence, she was capable of far more than her fear suggested. Ocean swimming became her moving meditation. Listening, truly listening to others, became the skill that changed her later life most profoundly. Today, Karen runs the Story Room, a monthly gathering where ordinary people share unpolished, honest stories. In doing so, she offers others what she wished she'd had: the knowledge that they are not alone, and that a full life is possible even when anxiety is part of it.
“anxiety is incredibly painful because you said the fear you know fear of failure fear of the future fear it's like running on a mouse wheel all the time and you you know you're running running anxiety anxiety you jump off you have a rest and say to yourself I'm not going to do that again I'm going to get over it and I'm not going to be anxious but you know 5 minutes later you're back on the wheel”
“I used to just think that I was going crazy and that that no one else in the world experience this but me. It's a very lonely feeling.”
“you weren't allowed to talk about mental health within the department of education then you weren't even allowed to tell people you suffered from migraines because you know that wasn't something you wrote down on my sick leave”
The hero, today
Anxiety is a pattern you can slip back into because it's so deeply grooved, and the moment you feel yourself sliding, fear comes in that you'll go through the whole thing again. Finding what works for anxiety is individual: medication, swimming, building successes, professional help, sometimes you have to try several things before you find what fits. Most people didn't know Karen suffered from anxiety because she learned to move through the world alongside it rather than letting it stop her, but the work to get there took decades and support. Listening actively is the skill that changed her life the most in her later years, because anxiety had kept her so focused on how she felt that she wasn't really hearing what was happening around her. Sharing your story with others who have lived experience, not bottling it up out of shame, creates the possibility for connection and helps people understand they are not alone.
Yes. Karen Sander is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Anxiety is a pattern you can slip back into because it's so deeply grooved, and the moment you feel yourself sliding, fear comes in that you'll go through the whole thing again.
Finding what works for anxiety is individual: medication, swimming, building successes, professional help, sometimes you have to try several things before you find what fits.
Most people didn't know Karen suffered from anxiety because she learned to move through the world alongside it rather than letting it stop her, but the work to get there took decades and support.
Listening actively is the skill that changed her life the most in her later years, because anxiety had kept her so focused on how she felt that she wasn't really hearing what was happening around her.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 00:03
Welcome to the Grit Diaries with Mon and Maz, a place where we share real stories meets real transformation. Each episode, we share the journeys of everyday people who's faced life's hardest moments and found their way to hope, healing, and purpose. May their courage inspire you and in the world around you. Let's get inspired. Oh, today we have an absolutely special guest and someone nearest and dearest to my heart. Her name is Karen Sanders. Karen today is going to unpack her very personal journey of experiencing anxiety right through her early years all the way up to her current years, which she's okay if I share with you 60 plus. And let me tell you, this woman is an absolute firecracker. You know, some of us kind of get stopped midway in our life, and anxiety can just really overtake our experience of life, opportunities, the joy that we get, maybe work and career opportunities. Any of you that might be struggling with this themselves or know someone that is, I implore you to listen in because Karen has plowed through her own experiences with anxiety and still gone out to do some incredible things, taking anxiety with you, if you like. If you need some inspiration to know what it's like to just live with anxiety and move through the world with it, I promise you, you'll get so many nuggets of wisdom out of this. She's real, she's raw, she's no-holds-barred. Let's dive in and hear Karen's story, and I know it's going to be of use to you. Hello and welcome to the Grit Diaries with Mona Maz. Good morning, Mon. Good morning, Maz. How are you? I'm excellent. So great to be back in the hot seat again. And here we have one of the most beautiful guests I think that we've actually ever had on this podcast, and her name is Karen Sander. Welcome, Karen.
Karen Sander (Guest) · 02:26
Oh, thank you. Gosh, I've got a lot to live up to.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 02:31
Uh, Karen, you're one of the reasons why I ever got into podcasting interviewing. You've been in such an inspiration to me, and let me tell the audience why. I met Karen, gosh, probably about at least 4 years ago. She was a beautiful woman that had her own radio show called Aging Fearlessly. She'd written a book of that same title, and She's inspired so many beautiful people with her words of wisdom in her book and to not be fearing aging, which is such a topic in our modern day society. And she walks her talk. She's out gallivanting around Tibet or cycling in crazy places and, and done some really amazing things. And what I've really learned from Karen is just say yes and figure it out as you go. And, you know, I think a lot of our journey with interviewing and podcasting with our Modern Maz Show has definitely been that kind of journey. And she's really harnessed the power of community for which she has created an incredible platform to be sharing stories. And that platform is called The Story Room that's held here on the Northern Beaches. And that has also branched out in other areas across Sydney. And it is about bringing people together and sharing people's stories and letting us know that we're not alone. It's also there to help us know that we can achieve our dreams. And really leaning into the community and showcasing what incredible things people are doing, but really about bringing us all together. It's an absolute success. They are sold-out events. So, you know, those are just touching on the, the things that Karen has achieved in this period of her life. And I'm so grateful that we have met and crossed paths. And she has an air about her of just just get out there and just do it and go and have some fun doing it. So I'm overjoyed to be sharing this platform here with you today and really keen to share your story because it wasn't always that easy. And so that's what we're going to unpack today. And for our listeners that have had some issues themselves with getting out there and achieving their dreams, Karen here is to share her story around where anxiety has played a part in her life and where that has sort of popped up almost unrecognizable, and where she started to see what part it was playing, being able to name it, and the things that she did to actually move forwards despite the challenges with anxiety. So a very accomplished woman, and I'm so grateful that we're going to be able to share the story. So Karen, welcome, and I guess let's just start with where you— where your journey started as a young thing. I believe your childhood a pretty idyllic one that you had growing up. So let's start there and just unpack part of your life.
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This conversation includes a redhead among non-redheads, the drive to do well, the fear of failure, anxiety takes grip in the teens, teaching while drowning, what anxiety does to the body and running away to the film sets.
Karen Sander (Guest) · 05:35
Well, thanks. Actually, can I just say, it's quite strange hearing the things you've done, and you just sort of go, really, did I do that? Anyway, yes, I did. But it is strange to hear someone else say it, so thank you for reminding me.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 05:50
Pleasure.
Karen Sander (Guest) · 05:51
And thanks, ladies, for having me on. Yeah, I did live a pretty idyllic life. I grew up in the suburb of Little Bay which was near La Perouse, and I went to La Perouse Public School and Matraville High. My father used to say Matraville High was the finishing school for young ladies. Once you've been there, you were finished. It was a fairly new high school opposite Long Bay Jail, and look, I loved it. It was probably a very male-orientated school because it was around football. Everything was around football, rugby union, rugby league. But, you know, I had my own horses. There was a lot of spare land around where we lived. My parents were very much into us being active in swimming, so we raced, and we were part of the Brownies, we were part of the Girl Guides. You know, Dad used to take us off with a horse float to, to horse shows. So if we weren't in the swimming pool, we were on the back of a horse, and if we weren't at a horse show, we were tearing around on Yarra Bay Beach on horses or swimming them in the bay. And yeah, so it was fairly idyllic, beautiful.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 07:07
Oh, sounds like one of those magic, magic times growing up and unencumbered by, I guess, all the things that we're encumbered with now. So at that time, when we're looking at what anxiety played in your life, do you have any memories back then that, that played a part, or it was pretty unencumbered?
Karen Sander (Guest) · 07:28
No, I think I was in a lot of ways an anxious child. So yeah, this is sort of— I was a freckle-faced, very freckle-faced, fair-skinned redhead, which, you know, my family weren't redheads. And it was also a time of going to the beach and a lot of time on the beach, which I'm now paying for. And, you know, I thought I was a little bit different. I used to always ask Mum was I adopted because I didn't look like anyone else in the family. And she assured me I wasn't, and I'm pretty certain I'm not. 69 years later, it's taken a while, but yeah, I sort of can see the characteristics of the family shining through.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 08:10
That's something I think many people go through, by the way. I think many people wonder who they belong to.
Karen Sander (Guest) · 08:16
Anyway, yeah, well, I guess that yes, there was always this anxiety about school and about doing well, which my parents were, you know, very driven that we had to do well at school. And as much as I could say I was shy, but I could talk, but there was a lot of me that lacked confidence. And I think that the writing was on the wall, you know, right from, you know, 5 or 6 years of old age that I'm, you know, when, when I was conscious of, you know, my, myself.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 08:48
Yeah. Okay. And then I guess, you know, perhaps it was there, but then you had this other sort of sense of that outdoorsy lifestyle and other things going on. So kind of balanced out a wee bit. When did you find that— I guess we're just calling it anxiety, is that what you call it?
Karen Sander (Guest) · 09:08
Well, I was diagnosed. It's GADs, which is generalized anxiety disorder. I think it was exasperated in my teens. You know, the more conscious— the '70s, the '60s and the '70s, you know, they were pretty hard years. You know, now it's hard, But in those days, you know, it was the surf, the sun, do well at school. You know, there was a lot of things going on, and with teenagers, etc. And I just think that it started to, you know, to really shine— well, I'm going to say it really started to take a grip, not shine through, because it wasn't a shining time, but it started to take a grip back then.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 09:48
So how did it start to manifest for you in the terms of, wow, okay, I'm sort of becoming aware that I'm not myself and having these feelings. How did it actually manifest on, I guess, on a physical level, or perhaps what you were saying to yourself? What— how did it actually show up?
Karen Sander (Guest) · 10:04
I guess I was just always worrying. I think a lot of it was a fear of failure. And through school, you know, there was always this drive within my family to do well. And if I came home with a result that wasn't, you know, good, it really did bother me because I knew that I was going to get questioned about, was I studying enough? How was I handling my studies, et cetera? Looking at my exam papers. And I think my parents didn't know any better way of parenting. Like today, there's more, parents are hopefully a little bit more skilled in parenting. All my parents wanted was for us to do well. And this was their way of parenting. And so I became very fearful of failure, and I just, you know, failure wasn't an option. And if I didn't do well, you know, it was like— or I didn't do as well as was expected, I felt that I'd failed.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 11:03
That's a double-edged sword, isn't it? It's, you know, in one sense, as a young person having that fear of failure, you know, and it has that ricochet effect throughout your life, and it sort But at the same time, it's probably helped you when you're perhaps in the position that you sit now and looking back, it's actually probably helped you go that further than what most people might have stopped at a certain point in terms of what you've created out there, the things that you've done which have enriched your life and been a bit gutsy to do these things. But at the same time, there's a cost to be paid because it was It sounds like it was to your detriment at times in terms of how you held yourself, perhaps thought about yourself. So, mm. Yeah, if I can add to that, Maz, absolutely. I think anxiety is fear of the future, and running Story Room, that's a strength to be worried about what's the next lot of 8 speakers to turn up for the next quarter and all of that. So it actually, it's a gift underneath, but also you'd appreciate anyone that's feeling anxious when you're working with them. So you, you've got huge compassion for what they feel.
Karen Sander (Guest) · 12:13
It does give you empathy for people who are struggling with mental health issues, whether it's depression or anxiety. A doctor once told me that anxiety was the most painful of the two mental health issues, that depression just numbed you out. Now, I don't know how true that is, but, you know, anxiety is incredibly painful because you said, Mon, the fear, you know, fear of failure, fear of the future, fear. It's like running on a mouse wheel all the time, and you, you know, you're running, running, running, anxiety, anxiety. You jump off, you have a rest and say to yourself, I'm not going to do that again, I'm going to get over it, and I'm not going to be anxious. But, you know, 5 minutes later you're back on that wheel, and it's really hard to, to take yourself off that wheel, and you do need professional help. To get off that way of thinking. And, you know, gosh, I'm far from perfect. And there's times I, you know, my partner's seen me go through times every couple of years. I'll have a session for a couple of weeks where I'll feel myself slide.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 13:18
So, Karen, where— and as you've grown up into your adult world, you're out there, you're working, what kind of work were you doing? And where did you start to find, as you've sort you know, you start to move away from your own family of origin and you're independent. Where were you starting to find that it was showing up in your life?
Karen Sander (Guest) · 13:41
Well, I went to teachers college and I studied teaching and I eventually became a teacher, but by that stage my anxiety was like, you know, it was bubbling over. I was a melting pot, you know, like it was— everything was about anxiety. I did teach for the Education Department for 7 years, but, you know, I was really struggling. My mother used to just say, "Just get over it. There's nothing wrong with you," because you weren't allowed to talk about mental health within the Department of Education then. You weren't even allowed to tell people you suffered from migraines because that wasn't something you wrote down on my sick leave. "I've got a migraine." After 7 years of teaching, I decided to take a year off and try and get my act together.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 14:24
I'm wondering, Karen, if just again for our listeners, because we're talking about it and there's an awareness that it was there and it was crippling, how were you experiencing it on a physical level that it was crippling?
Karen Sander (Guest) · 14:38
Well, you know, basically I couldn't think clearly a lot of the time. I could eat and eat and eat and I would lose weight. I could lose 5 kilos in a week if I really went into a spiral. And I loved food. It wasn't about not eating food. It was just I burnt energy I had sweaty palms and, you know, sweaty feet. I was just, you know, I feared everything in my life.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 15:04
Could you feel your heart racing?
Karen Sander (Guest) · 15:06
Oh yeah, my heart was racing. You know, I was just— it's the most horrible, horrible feeling when anxiety's really got you. Then you go to bed at night, you're so exhausted and you want to sleep, but you can't sleep. And usually anxiety about, you know, for some reason, I don't know whether it's to do with, you know, melatonin in your, in your system, but early hours of the morning you can feel it already starting up about 4 o'clock as the day is progressing into morning. And by the time I'd get to work at 8 o'clock in the morning, I'd be just a mess and I'd have to hold it all in and teach a class, which I managed to do. That's like, I just, I just kept forcing myself through this. And I did see doctors, but you know, I saw doctors for hypnotherapy and this, that and the other. But look, honestly, it didn't help. I was annoyed at one stage. I think a doctor that treated me for a couple of years should have actually referred me to a psychologist, but didn't, you know, or a psychiatrist. I think that, you know, and I was always, you know, they used to say about drugs like Valium because that was one of the few treatments they had back then. And I always feared having to go on to something like Valium because it was so addictive. I never did it, but like, that was really one of the choices, one of the only choices that they had.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 16:28
And so you chose not to have medication?
Karen Sander (Guest) · 16:32
No, no medication.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 16:34
What was for you, for again, the listeners out there that thinking about whether or not they would like to go on medication, obviously it's a personal choice and something between them and their doctors. What for you was an upside and perhaps a downside of not choosing medication at that time?
Karen Sander (Guest) · 16:53
Well, at that time, the downside was the addiction and Valium. That was the only reason. I would have done almost anything to get rid of the pain and the anxiety. But I mean, you know, later on— and we can talk about later— I did end up going on medication, which was the beginning of a new journey.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 17:14
And thankfully, they have so many different options these days as well, compared to, as you say, you know, back then, you know, the medication of, of general choice was valium. So yeah, thank you. So Karen, you've decided not to go down the medication route at that particular time of your life. What were the things that you found helpful in that time in terms of— was it having an actual diagnosis at some point? Was it friends? Was it a particular modality?
Karen Sander (Guest) · 17:44
Back then, we're talking about, you know, times when people really didn't understand or know anxiety at all. I guess I leaned on a lot of my friends. But, you know, I'm going to change this. You know, this probably isn't what you want to hear, but I ran away from teaching and started working in the film industry. You know, I had a whole lot of freedom. You know, I was out on set, I was traveling around, I was teaching young kids. I only had a couple of kids at a time. And for me, I called it— I really ran away and joined the circus. But so for the next 10 years, I'm going to say from the time I was 37 till I I was, you know, 46, 47. I really traveled the globe on the film set and worked with kids. So it allowed me some time to sort of think. I wasn't under the pressure that I was in a classroom. And well, during that time, early times of it, I did see a doctor and I started on some medication. But by that stage, medication was, you know, it was starting to head in a direction that it is now. And I got onto some medication that wasn't addictive, and that was early days of anti-anxiety medication. And then later on, I was able to get onto something that, you know, is more in line with the medications of today. But that was sort of like around my mid-40s, and I eventually decided I can't keep running around the world, you know, going looking for contracts for teaching on set. I need to get a real job. So I came back and I did a lot of different things for 4 years, but I eventually ended up in the pharmaceutical industry of all the drug industry as a rep for a wholesaling company where I stayed for 23 years, I think 21 years I worked for them. And I think then a combination of medications and learning, having a job that I actually quite enjoyed and being able to develop in new ways to learn new skills. To learn computers, to have training through the company really helped me. I was out on the road a lot of the time, so I wasn't sitting in an office. There's so many things, Mazamón, then that were like, yes, you could learn to meditate, you could learn to breathe, but it was still a little bit, you know, it wasn't easy to find the right thing. And I think that's for everybody with anxiety. You have to find your own way. And what does it for me now? It's swimming and being in the ocean, but also learning, having successes in your life where, where you start to see that you are capable and building on those successes. And for me, I think that was the key. In my 50s, I did have another major breakdown where I took myself to Northside Clinic, and I had 2 weeks in there, and that's when I got on to the, you know, the now modern-day medications. Of which I rarely need anymore. And I took those for a long time, but that also gave me the ability to build more skills and to know that I was capable. I think something when you have anxiety, when you feel it starting again, it's so quick to slip because it's a pattern. You know, it's like any pattern, you can slip back into it. So being able to build on those successes is the thing that was the key for me.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 21:19
I love what you're unpacking there, and then it's just multimodality, and some of that is about having a bank account of life experience that avails you evidence that despite having to deal with this, and it's always gnawing away at you, it's an unwelcome visitor if you like, you in the meantime have had all these other successes. You've had a bit of a creative time with working on film sets and helping to use that teaching ability to pour into the kids. And you have that kind of just radiant personality that I assume has been there regardless of what you were experiencing. But you have a very outgoing, give anything a go kind of— optimistic. Yes. And I don't think anything had a chance at kind of squashing that part of you. I think it's like that amazing speech by Steve Jobs and and you can never really understand looking forwards, but you can sort of connect the dots looking back. And when you look at the stepping stones of your life, and unfortunately, you know, for you it was hard because it was riddled with that anxiety, but all those little stepping stones has led you to where you are now, and that you can harness all the things that are around you. And I'm sure, you know, that there's elements that you're still dealing with today. What I really love that you just highlighted there, Karen, was that it's easy to slip into— and this is what I really want our listeners to be aware of— that they're hard-worn grooves. So, you know, there's a physiological level, there's psychological level, there's the environmental aspects, there's the people that we engage with that can all sort of be adding to our experience of anxiety or whatever it is you find that that tends to show up in your life that is your unwanted guest. But they're like the record players, aren't they? They're the grooves, they're the hard-worn grooves that we've had to work through and find ways of trying to play new tracks. But just being aware, you're just human, they're there. But there are ways. We know so much more about neuroplasticity. It's about being open to looking at different ways. As you said, Karen, one of the big things for you was swimming. Being in that cold water, being out with those amazing people that I know that you connect with down at Manly. And sometimes it's just allowing yourself to go on a little bit of a— what do they call it— a sojourn, a little bit of a journey to discover what might work well for you.
Karen Sander (Guest) · 23:54
I think that when you talk about slipping, it's that fear. Immediately you start to slip, the fear comes in of, oh my God, I'm going to go through this again, because it is such a horrible I can't, you know, it almost makes me want to cry as to the feeling of emotion. You can't explain to someone what it's like, that what's going on in your head, which is so horrible. But you just— I used to just think that I was going crazy and that no one else in the world experienced this but me. It's a very lonely feeling. And, you know, I think any mental health issue these days having someone to talk to that's a professional. And you might have to find— go through 4 or 5 to find the one that works for you, or the things that work for you, or the people that you surround yourself with. Like, you know, my swimmers— most people don't know these days that I suffer from anxiety, like, as you've described what I do, because I don't come across like that.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 25:02
Just the very fact you're sharing this will give inspiration for many. Listeners, Karen. And I have to also suggest, apart from professional people, people with lived experience, like just hearing your story, I think the power— I sat on the board of lived experience for 9 years— that the miracles that happen when one person can share with another that I've been there and I understand exactly what you're going through. Can I tap into your swimming for people who might be wanting to get ideas about swimming? What do you love You're down at Manly, aren't you?
Karen Sander (Guest) · 25:33
Yeah, so I really love the water. Gosh, I've just spent a week snorkeling in New Guinea with 23 of my friends from— and my partner. You know, we do some amazing traveling trips like swim treks where we swim, you know, 4 or 5 kilometers a day. And, you know, that's a holiday. We're going on one in a few weeks in Komodo. So we go to amazing places and we swim. But for Manly, just being in the ocean, it's very healing. And there's a lot of evidence around the ocean. We call it vitamin sea, SEA. And, you know, like, going out there and swimming, sometimes because you want to swim hard, sometimes because you just want to look at the fish or the cuttlefish, or sometimes because you just want the company of good people. When I was writing my book, I used to swim across the bay there And, you know, chapters had come into my head while I was writing. And, you know, well, it touches more than one.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 26:33
They say if it's mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual all in one as recreation. So you've got the spiritual being in the ocean, the mental, you know, you've got some time to yourself, physical, obviously swimming, and the emotional because you're with others. So you're ticking it all four. And they say that's one of the most— if you can think of how it hits all four rather than swimming on your own in a in a backyard swimming pool. There's a big difference being in the ocean swimming with some friends that you enjoy being with.
Karen Sander (Guest) · 27:00
It's very meditative, and they say it's like moving meditation. You know, you watch your arms moving through the water. I often watch my— the water coming off my fingernails, and I say it's like mercury because it's like silver bubbles floating down the backs of my hands. It's a wonderful feeling.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 27:20
We really appreciate you being vulnerable and unpacking a lot of this story, and I know it's going to be really valuable. And I'm sure, as you mentioned before, that people that would see you at Story Room at Bucketty's in Brookvale would see you and think that this woman has— my gosh, you know, she's inspiring, she's confident, she's created this. Wow. But behind the scenes, there is so much that you have had to work through to allow yourself to be someone, to create something like this, to show up every month and the work that it takes to get something like that together and to keep going and to be able to go off and do these amazing trips that you do. It's all part of the puzzle of sort of being able to allow yourself to be on that platform and everything else that you're involved in. So what do you feel as you sort of look back on your time span in dealing with this guest, unwanted guest, but has kind of hung around for a few decades. What has been now when you look back, the wisdoms that have come from it, if any? What would you be able to— it's hung around, so it's been there to teach you something. What do you feel, or not, that has been valuable about it? What it's taught you about humanity, taught you about yourself, taught you about relationships? If there's anything there that you'd like to share.
Karen Sander (Guest) · 28:46
Yeah, I guess it's taught me that we're never alone, you know, that other people suffered the same sorts of things that I have, that, you know, it's just not something you suffer alone. There's plenty of people out there suffering depression or anxiety. Some people, unlike me, they won't talk about it, you know, they're ashamed of it, or they fear talking about it. You know, that's not me. I don't mind who knows. You know, someone used to say, my mother used to say, don't ever tell anyone yourself, you'll never get a job. Well, you know, what do you do if you bottle it up? You know, other people don't share their experiences of anxiety or mental health issues if they bottle it up. You know, if you bottle it up, they're not going to come and say, look, I suffered from this, whether you're suffering from an eating disorder. There's so many disorders these days that they now have highlighted. And, you know, we can all be better people by sharing and helping one another. Um, it has made me more empathetic. If you see me on stage, you know, lots of stories make me cry, or lots of happy stories make me cry. And I'm— I don't care if I get up on stage and I cry, because that's just me, you know. I've got tears a little bit again now. And yeah, so it's taught me a lot of things. You know, it's taught me about myself. You know, it's taught me about the world. It's made me more interested in the world. It's made me, in the story room, from creating that, has made me interested in other people's stories. And by sharing those at the story room, other people are learning in the same way. That I've learned, that we all have a different story, whether we've been scammed, whether we've been, you know, had a terrible accident, but life can go on and can get better. And I think there's some of the lessons that I've learned. I think age is also, you know, really helpful wisdom as you get older. It's hard when you're young and you've got so many things ahead of you, but I think the wisdom when you look back and unpack is really important. And talk to someone that's older and listen to them. You know, listening to someone that's older and their experiences is truly amazing. And I've learned from many, many people. And of, you know, all the things I've done, a lot of them haven't been things I've invented or come, you know, decided to do and started from scratch. I've watched and looked and learned from other people. Sometimes silently, you know, others, yeah.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 31:34
I think that's lovely you're talking about listening to wise elders. I know my yoga teacher says that to live a karmic life, we're to listen to our wise elders, tread softly, and then pass on our learnings. And if we do that, we're in the karmic way.
Karen Sander (Guest) · 31:52
One other thing that I'm going to mention this because for me Some of the things I never listened— this is like, I think I went through life and I wasn't really listening. And I think that's because I was so focused on how I felt that I wasn't listening or hearing what was going on around me. And now, even now, I discover words in songs, or I listen to people and I really listen actively. Listening, and I think listening is really important for people. Whenever you're listening to someone, you're learning something, but you can also maybe help them and understand them better. So I think listening is one of the most important skills that we can learn in life. To me, it's— in my latter part of life, it is the most important thing I've learned.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 32:50
And in you saying that, I can almost hear the joy in you of reaching a place where you manage the anxiety to a point where it's okay, I'm kind of out of my own way. And just the joy of like, wow, this has always been available. And now you have gone not just a tippy-toed a little bit, you have gone on steroids to I want to hear other people's stories. I want to just embrace it and I want everybody to hear it. And it's almost maybe saying making up for lost time isn't quite the right phrase to use, but it's like, just to your point, just saying, you know, for so long it's sort of you've just had to just manage yourself and be in the world. And all of a sudden it's like, it's like those 3D pictures, isn't it, that your eyes, if you can focus them a certain way and all of a sudden everything comes alive and it's like 'And that was always there that whole time. It was just I had to kind of see it in a different way and be open to it and relax the eyes and my body.' And really, and so you're now, you're showcasing it not just for yourself, Tiki, but for everybody else that to varying degrees might be— people in the audience might be experiencing some depression and it's been really hard for them to actually get out, out the door. Maybe it's a friend that cajoled them to say, 'No, come on, you've got to be out there. You've got to go and listen to these stories. They're amazing.' And just by being in the room, you know, that they are hearing somebody else, oh man, they struggle too and they're on the stage and sharing it. Oh my gosh, maybe, just maybe, I have a glimmer of hope. Something being in the audience at your story room, I always remember this lady that I sat next to and she said what she really loved and why she kept turning up was these were not brushed up, polished stories that were rehearsed for, you know, to the nth degree and feeling like, yes, they'd be great stories, but feeling like they couldn't relate. They said that, I feel like I'm watching myself on stage, that I related to what they were saying. And they liked it being a little bit, you know, just the ordinary folk that were sharing their journey in their way. And that's just what it made it relatable to them. So it really is touching a nerve, a good nerve with people. It's really touching people's hearts, and there's so many different aspects of life that is covered in the Story Room. Yeah, it's the tonic, isn't it? It's a tonic for everybody, a monthly tonic, or bimonthly, isn't it?
Karen Sander (Guest) · 35:33
And whoever thought you could get a tonic and it's not in a bottle? It's great.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 35:41
Curiously, at a bar.
Karen Sander (Guest) · 35:44
Yeah, with good pub food.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 35:46
Thank you so much for being our guest here today, Karen, and I really appreciate your sharing of your story. And I really hope that it inspires listeners, whether it be anxiety, whether it be something else, or, you know, just name it, don't be afraid of it. Be okay to look at it a little bit more closely with a professional. And it's okay to think that you're not— you know, you are not alone. And maybe there's a few little nuggets of wisdom if you're willing to look down that path and just know that all of us are dealing with something. And for whatever reason, whatever is part of your life, you can still go out there, create magic, do the things that you want to do but please reach out and talk to someone. And Karen is a shining example of, you know, decades of living with anxiety and still going out there and kicking butt.
Karen Sander (Guest) · 36:42
Seriously kicking butt. I have to say thanks, ladies. It's been a pleasure, and you're both doing a great job. I'm glad you've started the Grit Diaries because there's a lot of stories to tell.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 36:53
Yes, thank you. And with that, thank you, Karen. Thanks, Mon.
Karen Sander (Guest) · 36:59
Bye, Maz. Thank you, Maz. Bye.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 37:03
Thank you. Thank you for joining us on The Grit Diaries: From Grit to Grace. If today's story has moved you, share it with someone who needs a little hope. Remember, from grit we can find grace, and from grace we can find inspiration. Until next time, look for the joy, keep safe, stay grounded, and never forget that there is a strength within your own story. Take care.
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