Kahlil Bagatsing · 56 min
A Filipino immigrant who once felt lost in a new country turned his own job-search struggle into a vocation, now coaching skilled migrants to reclaim their careers and sense of worth in the US.
Hear this story
Kahlil Bagatsing left the Philippines for love, arriving in the US just before the pandemic with a master's degree in entrepreneurship and years of experience in his family's technology business. But that success came at a cost. In his late thirties, overweight and deeply unfulfilled, he realised the life he was living wasn't actually his life. He had stayed in the family business out of obligation, driven by the weight of his parents' expectations and his responsibility as the eldest son. The breaking point came when he looked in the mirror and no longer recognised himself. He decided to leave it all behind, taking his small savings with him to rebuild.
When Kahlil began searching for work in America, he discovered that his credentials and experience meant almost nothing without understanding how the US job market actually works. That struggle became his purpose. Now he coaches skilled migrants to reclaim their careers and their sense of worth by teaching them the concrete skills employers actually care about: how to customise a resume for each application, how to frame survival jobs by highlighting transferable skills, how to tell their story in an interview using the problem-action-result structure. He teaches job seekers to reframe rejection not as failure but as a mismatch or a redirection toward something better.
Kahlil's message is clear: an accent is not a disadvantage unless you work for someone who won't value you. Your foreign degree matters less than proof you can do the work. And every no is either a not yet or something better coming. He reminds every person he coaches that moving to a new country takes courage. That courage, combined with the right skills and belief in yourself, is enough to get you there.
“After rejection after rejection it starts to feel like I am a failure... one of the biggest roles of the job coach is to remind the job seeker of their greatness because sometimes they forget.”
“There are a lot of immigrants who are highly educated, highly skilled and yet they cannot find a job that they would easily get in their country.”
“What good is a life savings if I don't have the life that I want.”
The hero, today
The job search is a skill that can be learned and improved, just like any other, and understanding how the job market works in your new country is the first step. Customising your resume for each job by matching the skills the employer is looking for is more important than listing everything you have ever done. When you highlight transferable skills from survival jobs, you show employers that you have relevant experience even if the job title doesn't match. An accent or a different cultural background is not a disadvantage unless you work for someone who doesn't value the diversity and perspective you bring. Preparing five stories that follow the problem-action-result structure before your interview means you are ready for whatever question they ask instead of scrambling in the moment. Every rejection is either a not yet, or it means something better is coming, and believing that is what keeps you moving forward when the process feels long.
Yes. Kahlil Bagatsing is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
The job search is a skill that can be learned and improved, just like any other, and understanding how the job market works in your new country is the first step.
Customising your resume for each job by matching the skills the employer is looking for is more important than listing everything you have ever done.
When you highlight transferable skills from survival jobs, you show employers that you have relevant experience even if the job title doesn't match.
An accent or a different cultural background is not a disadvantage unless you work for someone who doesn't value the diversity and perspective you bring.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 00:15
Hello and welcome to the podcast From There to Here, a podcast brought to life in collaboration with Kintsugi Heroes. I'm your host, Emma Bellamy. And each week I'll interview remarkable guests who get what it takes to rebuild a home away from home. Today, my guest is Khalil Bagatsing. Khalil is a Filipino immigrant based in the US who's now dedicated to helping other immigrants find skill-aligned jobs and rebuild meaningful careers in their new home. In this episode, he offers valuable professional insights on how immigrants can maximize their employability and navigate the unique challenges they face in the job market. If you are looking to increase your chances of finding a career that aligns with your aspirations and skills, listen to this episode. It's packed with practical tips that will support you on this journey. Khalil Pagatsingh, welcome to the podcast From There to Here. I'm really excited to have a conversation with you today because I know from experience and research how hard it is to find a job that you are qualified for as an immigrant. It can be hard for a host of reasons and we're gonna explore them together. But before we do that, I'd love if you could share a little bit about yourself, about who you are beyond the work that you do.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 02:00
Well, first off, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here and I appreciate the opportunity to get to speak with you. Yeah, my name is Khalil Bagat Singh. I was born in the Philippines. I moved to the US when I was younger. When I think when I was 8 years old, my parents moved me to the US. We stayed here for 4 years when there were some political challenges in the Philippines and then we moved back after 4 years because my father decided it actually was more opportunity for us in the Philippines and it turned out to be right because he became an entrepreneur and started his own company in the Philippines. And so most of my life was spent in the Philippines. I took my college in, in the Philippines as well. I took up economics and I took my master's in entrepreneurship there. And afterwards I was heavily involved in the family business, which is in technology. Most recently I moved to the US because different people have different reasons for moving to a different country. Mine was because I fell in love with someone who was based here and I ended up moving here right before the pandemic started. Some people say that, I guess our love story is love in a time of COVID you know, kind of like the Marc Hesse's book, Love in the Time of Cholera, ours was Love in the Time of COVID Got married, then I was like, okay, we're ending up living in the US and I ended up working in an organization called Upwardly Global because as an immigrant here, I was having a challenge of how to navigate the workforce and how to apply for jobs. And there was this nonprofit that helped out. I loved the organization so much that when there was an opening with them, I ended up applying and Here I am now.
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This conversation includes from manila to america for love, the weight of family expectations, looking in the mirror and not recognizing himself, finding joy in helping others, learning the us job market from scratch and the resume mistake almost every immigrant makes.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 03:39
I know that it's been a long journey for you to get to where you are today doing the job that you do. And for many years you worked in the family business and that was not necessarily what you truly wanted deep down, but you did that because it was important for your family. So what is it that made you decide to stop that and follow your own path professionally?
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 04:04
That's a great question. And I think it all boils down to that, you know, as the eldest, there's kind of this pressure that, you know, you should help your siblings and also help parents. And my life was kind of good and it was laid out. It's like, hey, you know, you work for the family business, you help out here. And then my dad was like, eventually when I retire, you take over, then, you know, you help support your brothers and sisters. And so that was very strong, that kind of obligation to the family or support with the family. And I valued family a lot, which is why I ended up really supporting it. However, there eventually came a time where I was looking in the mirror and it just was not who I am. And it's a different value that started to become stronger in that value of self-worth and self-actualization that I was looking for. And that's kind of the reason why I ended up leaving the family business.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 05:04
That's very Buddhist what you say, you know, the self-actualization.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 05:07
Well, I have the hairstyle for Buddhism, so I guess that works.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 05:12
Was it a spiritual kind of journey into changing your life in that way? I wonder what is the process for you to change your life in such a drastic way because you change your career that you had. It's not like you work 2 years over there, like you were established and so to let go of that. Is something I find really courageous.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 05:32
Well, thank you for saying that. I appreciate the kind words. And it's more than just the work, you know, it was my life was not working. At that point, I was late 30s, turning, almost getting to 40 years old. I was unhappy, unhealthy, unfulfilled on everything. You know, I was, I weighed over 300 pounds. I I did not have any exercise. I did not have any romance in my life. And then, and then I was working a job that wasn't, you know, as fulfilling to me internally. I mean, I love the fact that I was able to help and support the organization and help my family in the process. However, at the end of the day, I would look in the mirror, go home, and I just didn't like the life that I was leading. And so I decided to take what little savings I had and it's like what I told myself, what good is a life savings if I don't have the life that I want? You know, it was my process of self-discovery and trying to figure out what it is that I do want. Because for so long I've heard people telling me what I should want that I didn't, you know, I lost my own voice. And so for me, that journey was more of me finding that voice inside again and rediscovering myself.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 06:43
I love what you say about finding your own voice. And when you receive a lot of pressure about doing certain things, you stop thinking for yourself. You stop thinking, what is it that I actually like? You know, so it's a process of discovering what you like. What is it that you like the most about helping other immigrants find the jobs of their dreams? Like, what is it that, you know, sparks joy in you?
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 07:09
That's a great— what is it that— that's it, you know, that's the question to ask. What is it that sparks joy in you? Yeah. And so that's what I did. I followed my joy, you know, aside from Working with the family business, I also did a couple of other things on the side. I was working with a— I did volunteer work for a nonprofit in the Philippines called the Make-A-Wish Foundation. I also taught in one of the universities there in one of the colleges. And I realized that for me, I was happiest when I was being of service, you know, when I was helping other people. The phrase that I use, you know, the moment in life that I love most is when you get the dream and the dreamer to become one. That's one of the best moments in life. And I'm like, I want to be in a situation where I'm constantly making that happen, whatever it is. That's the moment I want to be a part of and help people get that. With Make-A-Wish, that's what I was doing with children with life-threatening conditions. We grant the one wish that they most wanted, and you could see the joy that they had. And I was like, you know, I need to figure out how I can do this on a regular basis. And I didn't know. I honestly am, I did not know that I would end up working with other immigrants. It wasn't something in my horizon. It wasn't something I was picturing. It's something that came to me as I was going through my own search.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 08:33
There is, I think to give people a little bit of context, I would say that there are a lot of immigrants who are highly educated, highly skilled, and yet they cannot find a job that they would easily get in their country. And there are many reasons for that, but your job is about improving their employability in their desired field. What are the main ways in which you do that?
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 09:01
Yeah, great question. I think the most important thing when we talk about the job search, the beauty of job searching is it's a skill and any skill can be taught and can be improved. When I got to the US, the first thing, you know, one of the first things that they taught me was we need to understand how the job search in the US works. Like in different countries, let's, let's take a look at writing the resume, for example. In some countries, it can be as long as 10 pages. In the US, it's like you got to stick it 1 page, 2 pages at most, unless maybe you're applying for a different field. That's understanding how it works. So we would teach people what it is like to job search in the US. What are the different tools, online websites, online tools that they can use? How to write the resume, how to customize the resume for each job that you're applying for. These are other things that we would teach. And then how, how would you interview? Like the interview process, once you get there, we would teach people how to do that as well. And then we would support other individuals with how to increase their network within the US so that they have more opportunities to interact within their industry. So these are some of the skills that we would teach And that was taught to me and I was like, wow, yeah, this is really important because if I'm in a new country, I gotta figure out how it works there and then I have to apply the learning and start applying for jobs. Because if I, for example, if I sent a 10-page resume to an employer, most employers were just rejected automatically because they won't even read it. You send me 10 pages, what am I gonna do with that? That's, that's too much.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 10:40
Yeah. If you don't conform to what they are expecting to receive, I think it's a, it's a big one. And what are the most common mistakes people do in their resumes when they write them?
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 10:52
Great question. I think this by far is the biggest mistake, is to have one resume and just apply to 100 jobs. It is very important to customize the resume that you're applying for because it's— you're telling your story, and each person has so many parts of their story. Right? Like we're books, we're a book, and our resume is just one page of this book of who we are and what we've accomplished, what we've done. If one company is asking for someone who is in the comedy and action genre, and then my resume shows, well, mine is romance and horror. Does it mix? I mean, romance and horror. Well, that, that can be a very interesting story as well. But, but you know what I mean? If, if you, if you show one story and they're asking for something different, it doesn't matter. Now, does that mean you can't do action and comedy? Not really. It's like, oh, if you're able to do that, that's what you need to highlight in the resume. For example, let's go to a specific job. As an accountant, there's so many different types of accountants, right? And if the company says, I need someone who has skills in accounts payable, who has the ability to use QuickBooks. And who has dealt with different vendors. The job description is the story they're looking for. And if I just say, well, I have computer skills, but I don't say I'm QuickBooks, you know, or they just say, yeah, I know Excel, but they don't include the fact that they know QuickBooks. And then, you know, the job seeker says, you know, I know QuickBooks. Oh, how would the employer know unless you show that, right? Something as simple as that. If they're looking for a certain skill and you don't put it in your resume, What does that mean? The employers think you don't have it. It's on the burden of the job seeker to show that they have what the other person is looking for, what the company's looking for, and to be truthful that they have the skill set that the company is looking for. And so a lot of the times it's just because I have 100 skills, but I have so little space in my resume to write that I only choose 10 of them. But if it's not the 10 that the company's looking for, would you hire someone that doesn't match to what you're looking for? It's not going to happen, right? So that's one of the most important things.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 13:08
Yeah, but I'm thinking about the job journey of an immigrant when you arrive, particularly for those who don't speak English as a first language. They have many jobs for a few years that are completely unrelated with their qualifications. Do you think that they should not put it on their resume if they are finally at a level of English where they can apply for a job that they were qualified for in their own country and Is it better to have a blank on your resume? Even if you worked as a waitress and the job that you want is, I don't know, working in research or working as an engineer. What is your advice on this? Because the price of not putting it in your resume means that you weren't doing anything where in fact you were actually doing something in the country.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 13:53
Exactly. And so the way I would advise people to do that is you want to focus on skills that are transferable. Because even as, let's say, if someone worked in retail as a manager of a store, it may not be applicable to, let's say, an accountant. But if the accountant is like a managerial position where you've dealt with people, then your work in retail managing people is a skill that's transferable that you can highlight and say, hey, I've managed people in this situation. So it may not be managing people in an accounting situation, but you've managed people in a retail. It still shows that you've had managerial skills where you've helped the subordinates that worked under you achieve their goals, for example. That's something that can be highlighted and that can be put. So skills like that are very important because not every accountant starts off as an accountant. There's so many paths that they can go through. And each path you learn skills, each job that you've gone through, you've learned something. And those skills are applicable in other jobs as well.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 14:57
Do you recommend for people who have a disconnect between different fields to have a summary perhaps at the beginning that kind of links it together and makes it relevant? Do you have any advice for making it gel?
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 15:12
You know, in the resume, you have like your professional summary. And I think that linking everything, for example, me. And my background is tech, nonprofit, and teaching. Those don't exactly mix, right? Unless maybe I'm going to apply in a job that is a tech company that's focused on helping nonprofits and has a teaching component. But how many companies are that? So I would have to figure out, okay, first thing that I would suggest is understand what the job is looking for. If this is a job that you like, like, okay, this is a job that I really, really like. What are the skill sets that they're looking for? What are the skills that they need? Am I qualified to be able to do the job? And if it's yes, how do I relay that message? I relay that message by saying, these are the skills that you're asking for. These are the skills that I have, and this is my experience that shows me using these skills. And then that's what you focus on in the resume. You have that one paragraph where you can bring it all together, and then you can use your work experience to highlight each of the skills. Then now it's more focused by giving them exactly what they're looking for. You make it easy for the company to hire you because you're showing them you have everything that they're looking for. And, you know, most of the times we would advise people, if you have at least 80% of what the company is looking for. For. If it's less than that, the chances of you getting that job might not be as good. Because some people are like, Khalil, I'm not 100%. I'm like, it's okay. Don't expect to be 100% in everything. At least, you know, 80% would bring the chances up much higher.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 18:07
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is two things. One is the credentials and the other is the skill set. Now, in my experience here in the US, the credentials are not as important unless they're like going to become an educator or planning to get higher education. Then the credential becomes important. And there are organizations that can transcribe your credentials and we work with some of them that show that, hey, for example, when I got to the US, I had an organization get through my credentials and they said, oh, Khalil has graduated from this program, which is equivalent to taking an MBA here in the US. So they can do that. However, more importantly, you know, unless of course you come from like a really, really high-end school, like Harvard or Stanford, it really opens doors. More important though, Em, is the skills. Because when you do a skill, whatever country you do that skill in, it's applicable anywhere else. Like if I've done software programming in Java in the Philippines, I've done that in the Philippines. It doesn't mean I can't do it in the US. So I have to highlight that I've done these projects and these are the skills. So again, it all goes back to the skills and highlighting the skills or the capabilities that you've had. For example, when I applied to this, my existing job, I didn't highlight the fact that I worked in a family business, though it was there. What I did highlight was my experience doing volunteer work with Make-A-Wish, that I've had experience in a nonprofit situation, that I had the skills of coaching people in a nonprofit situation. And I also highlighted the fact that I was coaching people in the family business, you know, instead of highlighting the fact that I did sales or that I did operations or I did business development. It, the skill that the job needed to coach other immigrants was coaching. And so I had to highlight those coaching skills in my resume. So this is really me showing, again, it's painting my picture, telling my story in a way that's more what they're looking for and finding that match.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 20:10
Yeah. And that makes me think about how often people do that mistake of describing their job in a very descriptive, almost, uh, yeah, not relevant way. And that may be true, you know, like you list all the tasks that you've done in the job, but first of all, it's probably a bit boring, but second of all, yeah, the person probably doesn't really connect it with what the job is about. So, but that's the tendency. I think a lot of us want to describe all the tasks that we've done because they're very important, but they're not important in that particular context and it's hard to let it go. But you need to.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 22:55
Yeah. And that's real, you know, that's very real. Uh, it becomes very personal, you know, after rejection after rejection, it starts to feel like I am a failure. And I remember one of the things that I loved about the organization was that there was a community that was just there to say, hey, everything's gonna be okay. You know, we've helped hundreds and thousands of people get jobs. We'll help you too. And having just that someone to let me know it's gonna be all right is huge. And so just having that human connections, 'cause a lot of times, Em, as an immigrant, it's either they're the breadwinners or they're the ones taking care of their family. Or in my case, it's like I moved here and I'm with a new partner and I don't wanna burden her with what I'm going through 'cause she's already taking a risk by having me here. And you don't wanna tell your partner like, hey, this is what I'm going through, For me, I wanted to be strong and let her know everything's going to be okay. And having that community to support me is huge. So as a coach, it can take some time. Like, I'd be as honest as possible. When I first got here, I was like, yeah, I'll get a job in 1, 2 months. It took me a long time. And so I would tell people it takes an average of 6 to 9 months to get a job.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 24:18
Wow. That's a lot.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 24:20
You're learning, you know, it's a skill, writing your resume, going through the process, you know, the hiring process. When you apply for a job, there could be hundreds, maybe even thousands. So it takes a while for them to sift through that. Then there's the interview process. Some can be 3 rounds, some can go 5, 6 rounds, depending on the organization. And so I let them know, hey, it's going to take some time. It could be faster, but making sure that they know or that they understand what they expect, I think really helps. And just, I always have, you know, aside from teaching the skills of job search, I always like to say that one of the biggest, biggest roles of the job coach is to remind the job seeker of their greatness because sometimes they forget after getting rejected, rejection after rejection, people can forget how good they really are. And sometimes the coach That's the job is to just let them know, hey, it's going to be okay. We'll get there. You're not alone. We'll just go through it and eventually it's going to happen.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 30:38
I love that. I love that you say this because sometimes when you are discriminated against, and whether that is subtle or overt, you think about what's wrong about you, but you don't necessarily think that there is a mismatch of values here. I wonder as well, what are the personal traits, the personal characteristics that you can develop to help you get the job that you want? For instance, you know, confidence, what's the importance of confidence and other skills that are more about your person, the way you present, what is the impact of it and how do you boost them in the process of job seeking?
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 31:19
The first thing that comes to mind is storytelling. Because when you are looking for a job, you're telling your story. And you have to tell the story in the right way so that they will understand it. So storytelling and communication is very important. Those are skills that I believe would help in terms of making sure that you get the job. And the other thing that I've noticed, Em, is, you know, I come from the Philippines, which is very, you know, family, very holistic, very communal. Like it's about what we've done. It's also highlighting what you've done to talk about yourself. It's okay to be proud of what you've accomplished, cuz a lot of the people I work with feel it's not natural for them to say that, hey, I've done this great work. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with being proud of a job well done. And it's okay to share that. It's okay to say that, hey, I did this, I was good at this, and it made an impact. And I think that's one of the things that people really need to learn is that it's okay. And it's, it's that balance that, like you said, that confidence in what you've accomplished and that pride is a good thing, especially in this context so that they know what you are capable of. I think that's really important as well.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 32:42
I guess that the confidence and storytelling are linked, right? Because you need to be proud of your own journey and be able to share some acceptable level of vulnerability in a professional context. And I think that the moment you're ready to do that is also the moment where you look at it from a place of strength as well. It's not from a place of being a victim. If you're able to talk about what you went through, you've overcome it already.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 33:08
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 38:12
Great question. And so the way that, and this is the one question that I tell everyone you're gonna have to answer. Yeah. Because every interview they're gonna ask you, tell me about yourself, or, you know, please introduce yourself. And this is where I tell people, you gotta practice and tell the story that you want to tell. So for example, when I applied for Apple, what's the story that I want to tell? They want someone who's had coaching experience. They want someone who's had nonprofit experience. And so I focused on those two things because that was important. So like, and I tell you, the first time I was in the US when I applied, like, tell me about yourself. Oh, I recently got married and I just moved to the US. They don't want to hear that. I should not have talked about like my personal life. Just stick to the professional life. So I introduced myself. Say hi. Yes, my name is Khaled Bagat Singh. First thing I tell everyone to do, thank the person that you're interviewing with. Thank you so much for this opportunity to be here. I'm really excited to be here and just a little bit about me. My name is Khaled Bagat Singh. Most of my professional life has been in the Philippines. I graduated with a degree in economics and I took my master's in entrepreneurship. And ever since then, I worked in a family business that deals with the servicing of banking equipment in the organization. I created a coaching program that helps the middle management and therefore the people underneath them to achieve goals and to reach what it is that they wanna achieve. The other experience that I had was I used to be with the Make-A-Wish Foundation. I was a volunteer for over 15 years and I headed it for 5 years. And in that time, I was able to use my skills in coaching the volunteers with the organizations to help achieve their goals with the organization as well. You know, it's, you see how the story that I'm telling is highlighting what it is that I want. I can put in a little PAR there if I want to focus on the skill that I wanna highlight. 'Cause here it's like Upwardly Global, they're like, hey, we want someone who has coaching, who has nonprofit because it's the values, right? This is the value system. And I'm like, And at the end, I would say something like, and I'm, you know, I'm very excited to use these skills here with this position. I know that you are looking for someone who can coach, who has the same values. And I want to say that as an immigrant who is going through this same situation, what you're doing, your mission is my mission. It's not just a job for me. It's something I wholeheartedly believe in. And that's why I think I would make an excellent candidate. For this role and I'm very excited to get to know you. You see, that story is like, hey, he took time to see what we needed. He told me only the parts of, you know, now I'm like, hey, I'm interested to know who this guy is because he's showing that he has this potential of handling the job. So it's giving that excitement to say that this person has the capabilities and makes them want to know you more. So that's the real, that tell me about yourself, that would be The best part is you show that side of you that excites them, that makes them say, hey, this is a good candidate that I want to learn more about.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 48:09
I guess the message that I would say to immigrants who are losing faith is the beauty of the story is that it's not just about the start. You know, immigrants, when they're in a new country, first of all, by making that leap to go there, you're already showing courage and strength to leave behind your home in search of something better. That shows guts, that shows courage, and that in itself is already a good thing. And just to remember that it's not a question of Am I a failure or not? It's just a question of, is it worth it? Because it's gonna be worth it. And just remember that the no doesn't mean you're a failure. I cannot emphasize that enough. You know, it's not personal. It doesn't mean that you are not good enough. It just means that it didn't match. Someone once told me there's only 3 answers to every prayer. It's either a yes, not yet, or I have something better for you, or there's something better. Every time that something doesn't go my way, I just have to realize it, it's not a yes. It could be happening soon, or there could be something better. For example, I recently, I remember I was so disheartened cuz within the organization I applied for two other jobs and I didn't get any of 'em. And then there's a third job that came out that it was a totally new position. Which I eventually got. I'm sure I love this job so much because I now work with the alumni and some of the leadership council. And I look back, I'm like, I'm so glad that those other two didn't work out because there was something better for me. And so that's kind of what I want to tell everyone else is just believe in yourself. You have the capability by you just showing me that you're willing to move to another country, that shows guts already. And that's courage. And that means, you know, with that coupled with some of the learnings that you get through empowering by learning the situation, you'll get there soon enough. So I'm excited for you and I can't wait for your dream, for you as the dreamer in that dream to become one.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 50:21
Yeah, it's keeping the bigger picture in mind that the no is just like a very small sentence in one chapter of your life. I think it's good to think about it this way as just an element of the story, but it's just not the story.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 50:38
Oh yeah. Yep. Just an element.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 50:45
You don't have to be in crisis to call.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 16:54
It's a good thing that you say 80% because a lot of people with perhaps a bit less confidence would never apply unless they have all the criteria. And I think that sometimes there is a human element. They can see you and meet you and perhaps you lack that little skill, but it's a skill that they can teach you very easily. So yeah, anyway, it's important, I think, to say it. One thing that I was wondering about is the lack of recognition for foreign credentials. I know that this is something that makes job seeking a lot more challenging for immigrants. They arrive here, perhaps they have a master's degree, 10 years of experience, but because it's from overseas, the employer is going to meet it with a certain level of skepticism or the lack of trust about how transferable that is to the local context. So how do you help people who are in this situation where most of their experience and their education overseas is great, but you wanna make sure that the employers are going to be able to value that and not dismiss it.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 20:47
That's so true. Like, that's another common challenge is people try to say too much or put too much rather than just focus on what's important. One of the things I love is design, and they say the perfect design is when there's nothing left to take away. It's just getting to the essence of it and not having all that clutter. If you focus on what's important and you tell that story, your message will come across. And that's the important thing is to make sure that that message comes across to show that, hey, you know, Khalil can do this, this, and this. For example, someone who could do coaching, I can tell them that I have experience in sales. They don't really care about that. Or I can say I've done business development or product development. Sales, you could even say there's a communication aspect, which might help. But if I say product development, They're not asking me to develop product. They're asking me to coach people. I have to focus on that message. Everything else does not add to the story. It's kind of like finding the perfect recipe. You know, just when you cook, you don't put in a gazillion ingredients. You only put the ingredients that are needed to make that dish.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 22:00
Yeah. And that requires, first of all, research into what is needed in the job that you're applying for, but also making some connections with what is needed in the current job and what you did. And that may not be something that you even thought about while doing the job, but you need to find a way to make it relevant. Anyway, it's really helpful to think about it this way. But one other thing that I was thinking you could perhaps talk about is I'm sure that many people who come to see you, they've experienced a lot of rejection. In the workplace, trying to apply and getting a lot of nos. So how do you do when people arrive in your work and they got some unfair rejection at some point, some discriminatory practices or whatever, that, you know, they may feel like they will never be able to compete in a system that was not built for them.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 25:24
Do you have a story of a client that you helped that moved you or made you realize the impact of your work?
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 25:32
I, that's, it's like asking like, who's your favorite child? You know, one thing I love and One thing I always like to tell my job seekers is I say something like, you know, in 3 months we're going to have a conversation and we're going to look back at this moment and laugh and say, this rejection is what we needed because something better is going to come along. And I've had so many of those moments where they're like, you know, Khalil, you're right. You know, that job that I got, that I got rejected from meant that I got this even better job that I'm so excited about. However, really what I love most is how most of the people that I work with are willing to give back because what we offer is very free. It's free. We don't charge anything. And I remember when I signed up for it, I'm like, you're training me for free. You're coaching me for free. You're giving me resources for free. You're giving me events where I can meet other people for free. Like, what's the catch? It felt too good to be true. And I was like, there's no catch. We just want you to get a job that you love and contribute to the US economy and find that fulfillment. And that's why when the opportunity came to work with this organization, I was like, yes, I'd love to. And the fact that it's such a wonderful cycle, Em, you know, that people who I was helping job search in the past Now I'm calling on them to say, hey, can you share your story with this other person who's just, you know, tell them how you got your tech job. And they're like, oh, 100%. I'm happy to meet with them and share my story and give them any advice because the people who have gone through the program are the best speakers and the best support network of the people who are going through that same situation. And the fact that we have this on a continuous basis is just one of those things that I love the most.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 27:24
Yeah, no, I imagine it must be so cool to see someone who's made it because the hardest thing is the first job, the first job that you qualified for. Then after all the rest, if you do, you know, persevere and you're consistent with your work and you love what you do, it will follow. I wonder whether you think that there are things that we perceive as disadvantages that may not actually be disadvantages, but I'm going to explain it in another way. I wonder whether there is a difference between objective disadvantages that are reality that, you know, people encounter and those that are disadvantages that are more not in our head, but they are a lot more subjective. As example, the accent. Yes, some people may not like an accent, but is it a disadvantage in itself? Perhaps it's me, but at the beginning when I was looking for my first serious you know, a quote-unquote job, I thought that my accent was a disadvantage and I was really having a negative perception on this. And the day where I started to be more self-acceptant about it, when it stopped bothering me, I think it stopped bothering a lot of other people I was talking to as well. So I wonder whether you see that happening in your job and you're like, yeah, you know, let's have a talk about whether it is actually a disadvantage that you can transform into a strength later on, or I don't know. If that makes sense to you or not.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 28:49
It absolutely makes sense. And I love your example of the accent. When people— I've had that conversation with several of the job seekers that I've worked with in the past. They say, hey Khalil, my accent, I want to change it so that I can speak more American. And I'd say, why? I think the important thing is as long as you can be understood, some accents are so thick that it's very difficult to understand. For me, it's about communication. If you have to be able to communicate in the job, then that's important. For example, let's go to accent. It's true that some people will discriminate. I'm not gonna lie. I wish that everyone were accepting and say, hey, you know, you have an accent. That's so cool. Some people will look at it and maybe they will— I don't want to jump in their heads, but they might not look too favorably at Yeah. And I would tell a job seeker, like they say, Khalil, if they don't like me because of my accent, what do I do? And then I ask them, do you wanna work for an organization that will discriminate upon you because of your accent? And they're like, no. So then you've dodged the bullet. Then you know that this is not a company for you. Great. That's how you look at it. Because as someone who speaks with an accent, you have either multiple languages because English is gonna be your second. You might have international experience, which shows that you have different points of view or that you manage multicultural individuals. Those are all skills. And if this company cannot see that, then really, is that a company you want to work for? If, if they're not going to judge you based on your accent or your sexual orientation or anything that is part of your identity, then maybe this isn't for you and you deserve better.
I love that you said that. It's coming from a place of strength and not coming from that victimization mode. Because if I come into the US and say, you know, people are not going to like me, it's because I'm an immigrant and everyone has it out against me, I'm not going to get a job. Yeah, it's never going to work. Once I have this self-worth and I know what I'm capable of, I often like to just make it lighter and compare job seeking to dating. Yes, because it really is about— first, it's about making sure you have the same value., right? And if a date goes wrong, like me, when I used to go out on a date and it didn't work, I thought, what's wrong with me? What did I do wrong? Instead of going, you know what, we just didn't match and that's okay, right? If I go on a date, I'm not gonna fall in love with every person I date with, or they're not gonna fall in love with me. Sometimes it just doesn't match. And it's the same thing with the job search. You know, sometimes you go there, it's like, it's just not a match and that's okay. It's nothing personal. And so it's also about having that confidence. If you go to a date and you have no belief in yourself, I don't care how attractive or how talented you are, the other person probably won't like you because they can't see that confidence or that self-worth in you. And it's the same with the job search. If you go to the interview not believing in what you're capable of doing and being able to express that, chances are you're not gonna get the job as well.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 34:33
Yeah. And storytelling helps you relate in a more personal way. I, I think there are some research around how telling a story makes you a lot more likable as a person.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 34:44
Oh yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 34:45
Because they relate to you. I wonder whether you can share a bit more about that, whether you have some insights into what makes a good story. Perhaps you have something about the structure of a story in a professional context that, you know, is more susceptible to work.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 35:00
That's a great question. So in writing the resume and in Answering questions for the interview. We like to teach what we call the PAR method or P-A-R. Some people like to use the STAR method, and it's basically the format of the story is you talk about the problem, you talk about the action that you've done, and then you talk about the result. So let's say if they ask you, do you have any experience in coaching? I talk about the P, the A, and the R. In the family business that I ran, one of the challenges was that I would work with a lot of middle management and I wanted to make sure that they are developing. And so one of the things that I came up with, that's the problem is like I'm dealing with a lot of middle management and I wanted to make sure that I'm on top of supporting them. My action was I created a coaching program for them on both their professional goals and their individual goals. And I would teach them that method so that they would in turn use that for the people that report to them. And the result was more clarity within the organization. There was aligned goals both for the organization and the individual, and that there's also that excitement of them achieving personal goals, whether it's within the company or outside, that I was able to support them in getting. And it made it for a much better organization and a much better support structure within the organization. So that in itself, you see how it's like a P-A-R-I. I could just say, yeah, in my family business, I coach middle management. There are about 10 of them and that's it. That's not telling a story. But if I, you know, like, this is the problem, this is the action, this is the result. That is a format that we teach all our job seekers to use when answering interview questions. And, you know, one of the things that I always like to say too is Don't focus too much on the problem. Focus on what you did. What's the action? What's the skill that you highlight? And what was the result of the skill that you were able to use? So that's something that I highly recommend for people once they do their interviews or once they write a bullet for the resume to show that they've been doing that. What's the problem that they solved? What's the action that they did? Highlighting a skill using that, and what was the result of of what they did.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 37:23
What's the other one? The STAR one.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 37:26
The STAR is, is basically the same. It's just situation, task. So instead of a problem, what's the situation or task? And the A and the R is the same, you know, it's an action and the result. So some people are just more detailed, like this is the situation, this was the task that I did. We simplified by just saying, what's the problem or the project? What's the action? What's the result?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 37:48
Connected to that, there is this, you know, question that I find always quite challenging to answer when people arrive and say, okay, well, present yourself. There are so many things that you could say. So I'm assuming that the storytelling here is also quite important, but you can't really talk about a problem to start with. So how much do you need to change the structure to tell something relevant in the present yourself question?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 41:24
I like it. Do you have some other tips that people can use, things that most people don't really think about? And perhaps let's focus it more in the interview because we've talked a lot about the resume, but in the interview, are there things that will allow you to distinguish yourself from the crowd?
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 41:43
That's a great question. This is where I go back to storytelling. And one of the biggest challenges I've encountered is just how people don't prepare for it.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 41:54
Yeah.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 41:55
Like when they go into an interview, they just show up without preparing. If you don't prepare for an interview, it's an indication that you're probably not going to get the job. So like, for example, with you, when you have your interviews, how long does it take for you to prepare? To make sure that you're ready. There is some effort in doing that. And so when it's with a job seeker, I would tell them like, okay, what are the stories that we're going to come up with? Like, I would always tell them before you get to the interview, you should have already at least 5 stories that you can tell.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 42:26
Wow. Okay.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 42:27
So you have to answer that, you know, tell me about yourself, right? That you have to practice that already, that first one, and you have to make sure it's aligned with what the job is looking for. Now there's, you know, they tell me, Khalil, what stories do I come up with? Because I don't know what questions they're gonna ask.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 42:44
Yeah.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 42:45
And this is where I say, well, what are the skill sets that they're looking for? And you should have a story for each skill set. There's another tool that I would encourage people to use as well is, you know, AI is very helpful when it comes to interviews. Like you can go to an AI and say, put down, this is the job description. What are the common questions that they ask for this interview? And the AI will share some of it. You can even use the AI to practice the interview. Like if you don't have a coach or you don't have someone you can practice with, you can use your phone and the AI will actually listen to you and can give you feedback on what you're talking about. You can say that, hey, this is an interview question I'm preparing for. I want you to time me, make sure that I'm under 3 minutes, and can you give me some feedback on what my response to the question? And it can do that.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 43:38
Wow. I didn't even know that you could do that. Is it the normal AI or is it another app that you have to pay for that does that?
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 43:45
Well, there, there are some that you can pay for. There are some that you can get for free. Like one of the ones that we've used is ChatGPT. Yeah, you can actually do that on your phone where you can talk to it and it can do the interview. I encourage people to do that because that's a lot of practice, you know, practice, practice, practice. The more you practice, as I said, it's a skill. The more you practice something, the easier it becomes. I mean, the first time I did interview was horrible. I said I was talking about the personal. I didn't have a structure. You know, I came in and I was just answering questions once it was there. But if you're prepared. You have the answers, you're just waiting for the right question to be asked and you go, oh, this is the story that I could tell for that question, or this is another story that I can tell for that question. Then it becomes much easier. So you're not figuring it out. And one thing I also tell immigrants, because a lot of the times they think in their— like I sometimes think in Filipino and then I have to translate it. And so that in itself is a process which can be overwhelming. But if you have the stories prepared already that you've already rehearsed, you don't have to worry about that time where you're like, oh, I gotta process and translate. And it makes it much faster and much more efficient. So it makes you look good.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 45:00
That's great. And this advantage of having a bank of stories readily available made me reflect on how inadequate our educational programs are in France. I know that It's so focused on knowledge and knowledge and doing essays, but we don't teach storytelling at all. But in the US, I think that people are a bit better because they have to do a lot more public speaking. Americans tend to be more confident about public speaking than other cultures, and France is one of them, I think, because we do very little public speaking and we don't realize then how important it's going to be later on in life. And I hope that one day there is going to be more emphasis on this.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 45:48
Yeah. And, you know, storytelling, communications, even job seeking, you know, I don't remember any— college did not teach me how to go through an interview. It's just something I had to figure out eventually. It's like, oh, so this is how it's done.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 46:01
We should have classes for that, particularly when you are, uh, you know, 16, 17, 18, you know, that really prepare you to the real world to the how you're going to have to present yourself. But yeah, it's sometimes as well, that focus on presenting ourselves well makes me wonder whether we don't put too much emphasis on confidence over competence. I wonder whether, you know, someone who looks very confident and doesn't really have the competence, they think they are better than what they actually are good at, whether they're more likely to get a job than the person who's ultra competent but does not have the confidence to express it.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 46:44
I find it, uh, I'm laughing because it makes sense. Someone appears confident, they can convince people of anything. You know, that's why I don't want to make it sound so harsh, but sometimes I love people who are con men, con people who, yeah. Will pretend and they can persuade you. And again, the skill of persuasion or storytelling, they tell you the story you wanna hear, it can get you the job, you know? Uh, will it make you stay there? That's a different story because eventually if you don't have the skill sets or if you don't have the competence, as we say, you're not gonna last. Kind of like, I'll go back to dating sometimes, you know, the, The good guy or the competent guy might not get the good date because he doesn't have the ability to kind of charm, but the charmer can get the date even if he doesn't have the competence.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 47:36
Yeah. Or the qualities, you know, that, the qualities.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 47:39
So I think it's, it's a mixture of the two. You need both. I mean, definitely the confidence is needed to be able to get into the door, especially showing that you're capable of doing the job. And the competence is important for you to be able to show that you can do the job. So it's a mixture of both I think is important.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 47:57
Do you have any final word of wisdom for people who are losing faith in the process of finding a job, the job that they truly want?
So I have a few questions that I like to ask my guests at the end of the interview. I wonder whether you have a resource either a book, a movie, or a show that you've been watching, something that inspired you that may be connected to the topic as well that you would like to share with the audience?
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 51:04
One is why I mentioned in passing, make the use out of AI, the tools. AI can be used in so many different ways, like helping you with your resume, helping prepare interviews. Now, in terms of a story, I remember the TED Talk It's called The Danger of a Single Story by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, and I loved it. It's about the stories that we tell ourselves, 'cause I've been emphasizing about the stories and just, I recommend that everyone watch it. It's like less than 20 minutes. It's a very powerful tool of just reminding ourselves that we're not just a single story. We're not just an immigrant. We're not just a job seeker. We're a brother, we're a friend, we're a husband, we're, you know, all these other different things that make up our story. And we need to remember that because just hearing one story does not encapsulate who we are.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 52:00
Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love that. You need to send me the link.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 52:02
Oh, I definitely will.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 52:05
Is there someone in your network that you would love to hear on the podcast? Wow.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 52:10
In my network. I thought it'd be great if you get Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie on here. I think she's very powerful and she's an immigrant as well. Just listen to her. I think her talk is one of the best. It's had like millions of people see it on TED Talk. I think it's really powerful.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 52:28
My last question to you is, when I say the word migrant, what is the first instinctive thought that comes to your mind?
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 52:39
Dreamer.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 52:40
Dreamer.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 52:41
Yeah. Courageous dreamer.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 52:44
I never had this before.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 52:46
Anyone who would move is dreaming of something better. I've always loved the John Lennon quote, "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." Dreams are powerful. And I think that all migrants, all newcomers, they move somewhere because they dream of something better. You know, different people would move to different countries for whatever reason, but there's that dream of something better. So that's what comes to my mind.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 53:12
Yeah. And the dream is definitely what gives you the strength to rebuild your life from scratch. I think it's the motor, the thing that really fuels your motivation. If you don't have the dream, you're never going to do it in the first place. Well, apart from those, you know, who have to leave their country and don't have a choice, but those who do have a choice, Definitely the dream plays a big part of that.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 53:35
Absolutely. That why question, why in the first place, why are you doing it? That's one of the most beautiful questions, most powerful.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 53:43
Why are you really doing it? Because sometimes we have a why that is a bit abstract and general that appeals to a lot of people. And then you'll have the really true reason why. And sometimes you need to peel down, you know, several layers to actually get to what is it actually that made you leave your country. I think it's an interesting question and answer. But yeah, so for people who would like to follow your work and see what you're doing, where can they contact you and follow you?
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 54:12
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. I don't do much social media aside from LinkedIn, and I love LinkedIn because it's where I get to really see, you know, professional development, support people in that way. So I'm more than happy to connect with people on LinkedIn. Please, I love it when people reach out. I really do. So I'm more than happy to answer any questions and I'd love to support in any way I can.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 54:33
Fantastic. I will put your LinkedIn link on the notes, but thank you so much, Khalil, for sharing with me all is it that you do with your work. I know that there are probably many aspects that we weren't able to explore because there is so much involved. Finding a job is so important when you move to another country. That's, I guess, one of the foundations. If you don't have that, it's very hard to make other aspects of your life go well. Security, sense of self-worth, you know, building a community, like so much comes from our work, you know. So what you do is really important and I can see how passionate you are. So thank you so much for answering all of these questions with me.
Kahlil Bagatsing (Guest) · 55:15
My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me here. I'm really, really grateful for the opportunity.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 55:23
Thank you for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Khalil and all the insights he has shared. If you did, please like, follow, and share the show. That would help the podcast to be known and for us to expand the production. Next week, I will be interviewing Christian Nduwimana, a refugee from Burundi who escaped a civil war war and political persecution. I was your host, Emma Bellamy, and I cannot wait to bring you on another journey from there to here.
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