Gloria Tabi · 59 min
After three decades hiding her natural hair under a wig to survive Australia's professional world, Gloria Tabi's act of taking it off became a radical declaration that Black women are enough, exactly as they are.
Hear this story
Gloria Tabi grew up in Ghana surrounded by love and community, then left at sixteen to build a life in Australia. Three decades later, she became a DEI specialist and race researcher. But the path there was blocked in ways she couldn't name. She watched herself pass over for promotion after promotion, saw people move ahead of her despite her qualifications, and eventually stepped away from work for nearly a decade to raise her children. It wasn't until she studied the structure of racism itself that she found language for what had been happening all along: systemic racism operating through workplace systems, hiring patterns, and whose faces appear on television and brochures.
Throughout her entire career, Gloria hid her natural hair under a wig. She wasn't alone. Research shows 80 percent of Black women hide their natural hair to get a job. Oprah and Michelle Obama did it too. When Gloria decided to take the wig off, it wasn't a confident choice made in a day. She sat in her car too scared to get out. The fear took years to move through. She needed to build her own business first so she could choose safety on her own terms. Even now, less than two years later, she uses daily self-talk to step into the world with her hair undyed and natural.
Gloria's advocacy centres on concrete change: representation on brochures and television, policies that protect Black women with natural hair, and listening to people who live this problem. She is walking the Legacy International Pageant with her natural hair, something she says has never been done before in that context. Her forthcoming book, Enough, speaks to anyone told they are not worthy, moving toward embracing who they truly are.
“It's in systems and it keeps people that are not European looking on a perpetual disadvantage.”
“Physically, I look black and I'm very visible. But racism in the workplace, in the professional places, makes us invisible.”
“I never once show my real hair. I hid my real hair and we wig to work in professional environment. That's how I got a professional job.”
The hero, today
Systemic racism operates through structures in how workplaces are set up, not just through individual racist comments, and it keeps people who do not look European in perpetual disadvantage regardless of their qualifications. Gloria wore wigs for her entire thirty-year career because she believed she would not be hired or taken seriously in professional spaces if she showed her natural hair, and 80 percent of Black women hide their natural hair to get a job. Taking off her wig was not a confident choice made in a single day but a terrifying, painful process that took her until over fifty years old to do, and it required her to build her own business so she could choose to do it safely. The solutions to hair discrimination and systemic racism are concrete and everyday: representation on brochures and television, policies that protect Black women with natural hair, and listening to people with lived experience of the problem. The tendency of non-Black people to touch Black people's hair without permission comes from the fact that Black hair and Black people are not normalized in workplaces, media, and public spaces, so when people encounter it, it feels foreign and they want to touch it. Gloria feels most at home when she experiences peace and safety, which she now builds through the work she does and through her family, though Ghana will always be part of her bones.
Yes. Gloria Tabi is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Systemic racism operates through structures in how workplaces are set up, not just through individual racist comments, and it keeps people who do not look European in perpetual disadvantage regardless of their qualifications.
Gloria wore wigs for her entire thirty-year career because she believed she would not be hired or taken seriously in professional spaces if she showed her natural hair, and 80 percent of Black women hide their natural hair to get a job.
Taking off her wig was not a confident choice made in a single day but a terrifying, painful process that took her until over fifty years old to do, and it required her to build her own business so she could choose to do it safely.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 00:15
Hello and welcome to From There to Here, the podcast where we get real about what it takes to build a life far from home. I'm your host, Emma Bellamy, and today my guest is Gloria Taby. Gloria is an author, researcher, DEI specialist, and the founder of Everyday Inclusion and Enable Women Africa. She is also a hair advocate working to inspire hair freedom and pride among Black women and girls. In this conversation, we dig into the barriers she has faced as a Black woman in Australian workplaces focusing on how racism, especially hair discrimination, shaped her journey. Gloria opens up about the pressures to hide her natural hair to fit into professional environments and what it meant to finally embrace her identity without shame after decades of hiding under a wig. Whether you are an immigrant, a leader, or just someone who wants to understand the realities of everyday racism, this episode will challenge and inspire you. Let's dive in. Gloria Tabi, I'm delighted to have you on the show and to get to uncover with you the stories, the lived experiences, and the convictions behind the incredible advocacy work you are doing in the anti-racism Racism Space. Thank you for being here.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 02:00
It's great to be here, Emma. Thank you so much for having me here. From there to here.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 02:07
Yes.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 02:08
Thank you for having me from there to here. It's really special.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 02:12
Yeah. Well, I guess let's start with the there because you are originally from Ghana. So take us back to what your life was like over there. Who was Gloria in Ghana? What were her dreams, her fears, and the moment where she realized that she would be leaving for good to resettle in Australia?
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The solutions to hair discrimination and systemic racism are concrete and everyday: representation on brochures and television, policies that protect Black women with natural hair, and listening to people with lived experience of the problem.
This conversation includes ghana before leaving, the decision to leave at sixteen, systemic racism is invisible, from stagnation to research, bypassed for promotion, taking a decade out and hidden under wigs for thirty years.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 02:33
Well, Ghana is in West Africa, very close to Nigeria. So a lot of people who are not familiar with Africa know Nigeria. So Ghana and Nigeria is a bit like Australia and New Zealand. Nigeria is very big and Ghana is like this little sister. I think it's a beautiful country. A lot of your listeners will know that Africa is poor, and so growing up, yes, we were materially poor, but in terms of love and a sense of community and family, we were strong in that. And so from very young, I knew my sense of place. My parents loved me, my siblings, and then the extended family. And they were always not so far to pop around. You know, I've been in Australia a long time, but I still remember vividly the culture, the rhythms, my mum and grandmother's cooking, you know, the smells. They stay with you, you know, and these days when I visit, the smells, the taste of the food all come back and they're just beautiful memories. That I have.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 03:49
You miss it?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 03:51
Of course I do. And you know, this would be another conversation to have, is that why do we leave a country that we love or that is so familiar to us and travel so far away? But that is another talk because Ghana was colonized by the British. So my parents lived through the British inhabitation of Ghana. Ghana was the first country in Africa to gain independence from colonialism, and that happened in 1957. Now that's not very long ago, and my parents lived through that. And so when we say Africa is poor, 1957 was the first time one African country got independence and it takes years to rebuild. And so a lot of us move because it is poor. Our resources were taken. And so to actually live there, you are living in impoverished environment. And sometimes the hardest thing to do is to leave all your family to travel to the West, the place which came to take all our resources in order to actually survive. And so a lot of us have got that story of leaving everything because of that reason. But, you know, we don't talk about that a lot.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 05:26
When did you move?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 05:28
I had the opportunity to come to Australia— goodness, it's 3 decades ago. Wow. So I've just finished my high school, which is equivalent to Year 10, when I came to Australia. So it's a long time ago. Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 05:42
Okay. So you were young and you worked very hard to establish a career and found a place in Australian workforce. But I know that you experienced a lot of racism, right? So can you talk about that? Can you talk about what was your experience of racism in the workplace? Perhaps the first time where you realized that you were being treated differently?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 06:08
It's such an important question, Emma, because racism that we know of is whereby someone experiences it and we can name that experience. But really, as a race researcher, I have come to realize that by the time that we witness that encounter of racism, the damage has actually been done. So the damage that causes people like me is systemic, it's in systems. And so you don't actually see it, not always with your naked eye or feel it or taste it or hear it. It's just in systems. And what I mean by that is the way that workplaces are set up, who gets to be promoted without fail. And so, for example, the chances are the manager that will be presented to me will be a white person, a white male or a white female, not someone that looks like me or someone that is an Indigenous. It's very rare. And so that's actually what racism is, it's in systems and it keeps people that are not European looking on a perpetual disadvantage. And we might think that, well, Australia is a multicultural country and if you work hard you get there. But at the same time, if you actually stop and look at higher positions of power and just look at who are the people that occupy those positions, it doesn't mean that migrants are not qualified. Some of us are holding 2, 3 university degrees, and so that's what we are dealing with. And so for me, in terms of racism on the street, is very rare. Like I said, I've been in Australia over 3 decades, and I can count on one hand how many times someone has yelled a racist comment to me on the street. Not many.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 08:27
Okay.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 08:29
It's in systems, and that bit we need to really take time to understand through the help of people with lived experience and also people that have studied what race is, because race is a structure and race generates racism. But what people know is racism on the street, but it's actually a structure like gender or class. So race is a structure, and once you study that and you understand that, you see that what happens on the street is a result of a very deep systemic racism. And that bit not many people understand, and that's actually my job. That's what I help leaders to understand, how how systemic racism comes about and how to reduce that. So the negative impact through racism is reduced.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 09:33
I don't know what was the area of your career before, but I know it wasn't about advocacy. So what made you shift from this career that you had where you experienced systemic racism to becoming an advocate for inclusion and racism rather than just surviving racism.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 09:53
What happened was that I was in a higher education, I'm dealing with academics, researchers, not just in Australia but around the world, and then I was seeing this pattern. And something else I haven't shared is that my husband is white, so half my family are white, and so I know how they live their life, and I know how my Black family, my Black brothers, my Black sisters also leave. And so all of these things were forming in my experiences and combine that with working in higher education and dealing with academics, like I was saying, then my eyes began to open. And then an incident happened and I thought, wow, it was a job I really loved and doing very well at it, but I still experienced the inability to move through the ladder, the normal progression which I have seen in my own family, my wife's family, how they progress. And it's almost like I was stagnant. I wasn't moving anywhere, Emma. And it didn't make sense to me because it had nothing to do with, oh, she can't speak English, or she's got a very strong accent and we can't understand her. Or she's not qualified enough. I ticked all those boxes, but I went nowhere. So instinctively, and being a very curious person, I decided to study the structure of race to understand what is it that very highly educated Black women or men and youth still are on disadvantage, what is actually in the background, what's going on? And so that's what put me on that path of research and my eyes was open then and there was no stopping me, you know, you can't unseen something or unheard something, once you know it, you know. And I was really absolutely devastated about what systemic racism is and what it does to people. And I just made a vow that I'm going to spend the rest of my life advocating and speaking about this.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 12:27
In a way, it was a way to empower yourself.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 12:31
Exactly. It was also freeing myself because what happens to migrants like me is that we start to blame ourselves that maybe perhaps we are not assimilating very well. Or perhaps we are very, you know, set in our ways, and so then that's what's causing the problems for us. In my case, I was doing all the right things. Like I said, I move in the black circles and I move in the white circles, and what I was seeing and experiencing was vastly different to what my husband and my sisters-in-law and so forth. And so that helped me to then as— well, not accepted, but not blame myself as much. And that is liberating to be free, to know that it's not just about you. There's actually a structure that's working against you. So that is a relief because it causes a lot of mental health in my community. And migrant population where we are continuously blaming ourselves and that needs to be spoken about because when we can have language to explain what's going on, then we can actually deal with it.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 14:01
When you were speaking about how the work that you are doing enabled you to see it from a different perspective, from a more systemic point of view, I wonder whether you got to reflect on things that you experienced that at the time you didn't really see as being racism, but then by studying it, you were like, oh my gosh, that was totally racism. Can you give me an example?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 14:22
Yeah, definitely. I've had situations where I was pretty much the next in line for promotion. It was so clear. And this was straight after university, worked with an organization for at least 3, 4 years, and people come and go, but I was there, and people moved through it, and I was one of the most experienced person at the time. Like, looking back now, oh my goodness, I would have either said something or write to the, you know, CEO, from what I know now. But I saw physicians come and go and slide me out. And just bypass me completely, like I wasn't even there. So, and this happened all throughout my life in professional environment. Physically, I look black and I'm very visible, but racism in the workplace, in the professional places, makes us invisible, which is a really profoundly difficult thing to deal with as a Black person. I'll tell you a story. Witnessing racism straight after university, and I went to university here, so it wasn't overseas, it was here in Australia, in Australian university. And seeing all the promotions come and gone and pass me by, I just said to my husband at the time that I'm just going to take time off and look after my kids. And I did. I thought, why will I have my child and put them in childcare and work in an environment that doesn't even see my skills and then do that to pay a childcare and have someone raise my kids? So I just took time off. I took nearly a decade to bring up my children. It's the best decision I ever did, and I was young then. I remember making that decision because I saw that the way I was being treated was different, but I had no language even at that time to explain what was happening to me. And I'm talking about 20, 25 years ago. And so when I started back at work, I saw that what was happening in the '90s when I was young working as a young Black woman is still happening even after I took a decade off to raise my kids. The same things were still happening. So it wasn't about I was young straight from university, and that I was new to the country, what was happening back then in the '90s was still happening in the 2000s. And so that, that was also shocking.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 17:35
Let's talk about your work because your research and advocacy work has been currently focusing on hair discrimination, which is a form of racism that extends far beyond mere aesthetics, right? So Tell us about the subtle everyday acts of hair discrimination that most people are unaware of.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 17:59
I really love that we've come to this bit about my story because the way that society functions is based on the knowledge that some people are superior and other people are not. And there it sort of informs us how we do everything, including politics, economics, society. It is based on that notion. And so as a race researcher, I've been thinking about how can I help leaders to really solve racism problems, making it tangible. And you know what, all the years that I worked I never once show my real hair. I hid my real hair under wig to work in professional environment. That's how I got a professional job. I work with governments, in high institution, I work in many places. My hair was hidden under a wig. And I saw something else. I wasn't the only one doing it. All black women were doing it. The most powerful black women in the world were doing it, including Oprah Winfrey, Michelle Obama. Now, Michelle Obama was First Lady, as we know, when Barack Obama was the U.S. president. She was asked in an interview why she continued to wear wig throughout being a First Lady, and she says people wouldn't have taken her seriously. And so this thing about systemic racism is deep, and so I decided that I'm going to take my wig off as part of the advocacy to actually bring home to people to see what systemic racism is. And our hair is one of the clearest examples of that. And I put this question to you: if you've ever met a Black woman in Australia working in a professional environment with hair like mine, you probably never have.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 20:26
I don't think—
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 20:27
because none of them, none of them very few show their real hair. So our hair, in how God has made us, apart from our skin color, is also another way where systemic racism is at play. And so that's why I've taken the wig off, but it's taken me to be over 50 to do that, Emma. I don't want young Black girls to wait till they're 50 and over to do that, and that's why I do this work, and I'll do it to the day I die because it's wrong and it needs to stop. So if people are telling me they don't understand systemic racism, you know what I tell them now? Look at your Black friends and look at the hair they have on their head. They either have a wig to hide their natural hair they are born with, or they sit there over 8 hours and put fake extension plaits in their hair to show up in professional spaces. Yeah, why, why can't we show our natural hair? And another question I ask people is Look at the brochures of your organizations. If you want to know how systemic racism happens, look at Black women that get asked to come to television, on our screens. What type of hair have they got? Why, as a society, do we allow this to happen under our own noses? And so hair is not just aesthetics or personal choice. It's actually a racism that affect us deeply. And so then for us to work in professional spaces and be accepted, we have to hide our natural hair. And then we go around and talk about diversity and inclusion. It does not include us.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 22:42
Mm-hmm.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 22:45
So that's why I'm talking about hair, because it's a clear example of systemic racism. Mm-hmm.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 22:54
And it's a part of your identity that gets erased, that gets deemed unprofessional. And so by wearing a wig, you conform to Eurocentric beauty standards.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 23:09
100%. We code-switch. There's actually a term, code-switching, in order to be in those spaces. And it's taking me to over 50 to be able to say this loud and actually wear my hair that I'm born with. And if we can't even be ourselves in hair a fundamental part of who we are, a key piece to our identity, then how can we even fight other type of racism, sister? How can we fight other type of racism? And so you can see how that's connected to the advocacy work and how that is so critical. Young Black girls in Australia in high school, They sit there for over 8 hours putting extensions in their hair before they can go to school. And because of that, they can't go swimming because their parents have worked hard to do that hairdo. They can't go swimming. We live in an island and they can't go and swim, something that other children, other groups in our community take for granted. Our kids can't do that. So it's not just about hair, it's affecting our whole community. In few weeks' time, my advocacy work, we are going to actually have a conversation in Parliament because I've been speaking to some ministers and they are starting to see that, Gloria, you're not just saying this. I've never met any Black woman with hair like you. Now that you are telling us You're right. There was research done recently by Dove, you know, Dove soap, and they found out that 80% of Black women hide their natural hair in order to get a job.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 25:17
Wow.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 25:18
80%. That's a lot.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 25:20
It's a lot.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 25:22
Yeah, that is a lot. It's not just an issue isolated in Australia. Is around the world. And so that's why there's that agency, because I realize with all my research in race and wanting to have an impact in racism, if we are still hiding our hair, that the dominant group can see that we are hiding, we are actually putting on fake hair onto our head in order to come to work. And if we can't fix that problem, how the hell can we fix other forms of racism? I don't know. I don't know how we do that. So yeah, that's why I do what I do.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 26:11
It starts with the visible parts of your identity. And so I wonder, how did your relationship with your hair change, right? Because one day you decided to throw the wig away and just go to work the way you are, the beautiful way you are. So how was that journey for you?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 26:30
That journey was frightening. Yeah, it was incredibly painful. And I think that's how I have realized it must be terrifying for young Black girls and youth because as a grown woman, if I can still be scared to go to a job interview or advocacy work, go and give a talk with my natural hair, just think about how is it for young Black girls. And I think that comparison is what eventually I snapped out of. I thought, you are a grown woman, middle age, you can do this, Gloria. But it came with pain. It didn't come one day I just got up and did it. It took me a long time. I was terrified, and that's the truth. I was absolutely terrified. Like I said, the most powerful women hide their hair, and here I was a little Black woman somewhere in Sydney saying, no more. But then I didn't just do that. I also decided not to color my hair anymore because this whole idea of the Eurocentric beauty, you have to dye your hair in order to stay youthful. I got tired of it all. All of these stories are a form of violence against women. And I've had enough. And so when I decided to come out, so to speak, with my natural hair, and like I said to you, it was a process. It wasn't a day. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. There was a days where I'll sit in my car. Oh gosh, I'm getting teary saying this. Going to a local shopping center and sitting in my car because I was scared to come out of my car.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 28:44
Wow.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 28:44
So that's how hard it is. Don't underestimate how difficult it is for Black women and girls to show up as we are. It's not a simple thing. And here I am, a grown woman. I'm telling you, it wasn't easy. So I have enormous compassion for my people because I know that it's not easy thing to do because of the structure. And that's why I have told you this, I decided not to suffer in pain, so that's why I set up Enable Women Africa - Inspiring Her Freedom, because I don't want young girls to wait till they are old like me. I want them to know they have a sister, an auntie, who understands how hard this is, and I'm there to walk side by side with them until they remove that fake wig off their head and be whole. It's not an easy thing to do.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 30:12
Was it because it felt unsafe?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 30:16
Exactly, unsafe. Unsafe to be in professional spaces. And I have to also say, so that your listeners know, I'm a consultant now. I work for myself. I choose who I work with. And so I can confidently do this with the support of my husband and my family. So Picture a young Black girl who has just come out of university and the whole society tells them that they are not good enough and that they need to hide and conform to Eurocentric beauty violently, otherwise they're not going to get a job, they will be too much. Too wild and so they need to disguise, that young black girl would do just that in order to survive. I mean, we need to feed our family. What are we supposed to do? Go hungry? Sleep on the street?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 31:28
Yeah.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 31:29
That's what we have to do to get the job. And so that's what most black girls will do. They will come out of uni, They've been doing it right from young, putting the extensions in all through high school, and when they come out of university, they put the wig on to get the job. There's no other ways in order to get a job but that.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 31:55
That's why you say that the blame should be placed on the system and it's not really about the person. Let's talk actually about the solutions because there are several ways that we can think of the solutions, but at a systemic structural level, what do you think can instill real lasting change?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 32:16
Thank you for asking that question. We need to speak about it. Now that you know this story, and I hope your audience as they listen will also know, once you know, you cannot not know. And once seen you cannot unseen, and together is how changes happens. At your workplaces, on your brochures, let it be representative of who Black Africans actually look like. Do we see that? Who do we invite to come on television that is a Black woman? Why are we choosing the ones that continue to wear the wig? Because it makes us comfortable? They look more like us? Those are the systemic change. They are not rocket science. We can actually make these changes every day of the week. Invite those people who are braving against this systemic nature on your television so we can see and normalize what Black hair actually looks like. Out of sight, out of mind. So if we don't invite those people and we don't see them on our brochures, well, we don't know what a Black woman's hair looks like. And so then we can't accept it in our workplaces. So those are all systemic changes. And we need to also have policies that stops employers failing to employ Black young girls with natural hair. And another thing we need to do is to actually listen. Like, I'm sharing my heart out about this. Listen to people with lived experience of this problem because that then guide us how to solve the problem. So listening is very important. So those are things that we can do to reflect inclusion straight away in all our workplaces.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 34:28
Yeah. And you do that today. You celebrate your natural hair and you actually entered the Legacy International Pageant where you are going to help other Black women and girls to be proud. It's about being proud of your natural hair and do this without any stigma.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 34:51
That's exactly right. So in July, actually next month, yes, I will be walking the Legacy International Pageant with my natural hair undyed as a middle-aged Black woman in Australia, and that has never been done before. So we are writing history. And this is to inspire hair freedom. So everything that I've told you about black hair is huge to come out with your natural hair. And I thought, what a better way to do it, to do it on a bigger stage. Yeah, in the beauty world, because pageantry is all about beauty, and it's often the Eurocentric is the one that we held up. And is beautiful, but there's also other cultures that are beautiful, but we don't look the same way. We are different and there's nothing wrong with that. We are just different. And so that's what the pageant is. And if your listeners can hear this, they can actually vote for me as well, which is—
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 36:02
I'll make sure to have a link, you know, so that they can click on it and vote for you because what you're doing is so much more than a contest of beauty. It's about combating ingrained racism and encouraging people to be proud of their natural hair. So I think that what you do is amazing.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 36:21
It's more than the glitter. It is a project that is about helping young Black girls to be themselves, because if we can be ourselves, then we can actually do bigger and better things in the community. If we are always hiding and we are scared and we are wearing fake hair, how can we be authentic in our own self in order to actually give? So I actually feel now since I've come out, I'm more able to give to my community, to the world, than when I was hiding under wigs. So It's a very important step.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 37:07
I love this. It makes me think as well on what can be done at a personal level, you know, the small everyday acts that people like me can take to combat racism. Do you have any tips on how to do that skillfully?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 37:22
A lot of people ask me that, and we can do so much. The most helpful thing to actually combat racism is to help to dismantle the structure. Because individually, you can vote for me and help and all of that, which is really powerful, but the system still keep ticking. The system's still working in the background. So eventually, we need to dismantle the system. And not all of us have got the skills to do that. But where you are, you can do your bit. Part of what you do is listening to people with lived experience. That listening ear is really important because once you hear it, like I've shared with you, you'll be able to come out with creative ways to deal with the issue. And I'm hoping that there will be a leader that will listen to this and then decide to actually help enable Women Africa Inspiring Her Freedom into bigger things so that young people can actually grow up and not have to wear the wig. So there's so much we can do listening to people's lived experience in your workplace, your brochures, promotionals that come out, I mean, there are a lot of Africans in Australia. Why don't we see real Africans on your brochure? And their hair. And so normalizing that. A good example I can give is example of the LGBTQI community. Society weren't always embracing of them. But over time, with visibility, Pride Month, a whole host of community engagement and activity, as society we are becoming, and I mean, we still got a long way to go, but we becoming more accepting. And so we can do the same thing when it comes to racism and Black community. We can do exactly the same thing, engagement, visibility, listening to the community, and knowing what they are suffering. Okay, so there's a lot of migrants in Australia, yourself included, because you told me you're from France, and we are all migrants, but we all have our unique problems within our community. Just because your migrant story is different from mine, it doesn't mean that yours is more truthful than mine. So you might not experience racism the same way even though you're a migrant, but what I'm saying is, because this is a podcast for migrants, is that this is the story of the Black African women migrants in Australia. So it's different to yours, and just because you don't experience hair discrimination doesn't mean that we don't experience it. So listening to the groups who experience the problem is our best way in solving the problem instead of dismissing it altogether. Because it's hair, sometimes people say to me, but that's your choice, no one can make you do your hair a certain way. That's only half true. Because if we did our hair that way, a lot of us will not get a job. And so that's why it's not just hair, it's political.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 41:11
Gloria, do you have a final word of wisdom for migrants who are facing hair discrimination or other forms of racial discrimination but feel powerless to challenge it?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 41:25
Yeah, I'll ask them to get in touch with Enable Women Africa, that platform that we've started which is all about inspiring hair freedom. If you are also a migrant that your story might not be hair discrimination but it's racial discrimination, you can also reach out to me through my business, it's called Everyday Inclusion, and I can help you through that as well. So We look at both racism and of course the hair discrimination is very specific to the African community, but any types of racism, if you just speak about it in the workplace, you could actually put yourself in harm. So speak to someone who can help you and guide you. I've had migrants sometimes contact me because they know the work I do and they're suffering from racism, but then what I do is I'll contact the organization and let them know the services that I provide and whether they would like me to come and do a guest speaking or something so that it diffuses and help the leaders to understand what racism is without putting yourself in harm. So there's different ways of doing it. Get in touch with me and I can help you. In the best way I can.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 42:49
Do you have a piece of content, a book or something that really inspired you that you would like to recommend to our audience?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 42:56
Well, I've got a book coming out. Yes. In a few weeks, it's called Enough. And that book is really about telling my story, but it's also a book for any woman who have been told they are not enough, they are not worthy, and then moving through that system to embracing who you are and telling yourself that you are enough all along. Because we need to be feeling that we are enough to be able to build up from there. But if we are operating on the fact that we are not enough, we are not good enough, and so forth, we can't be the best that we can be. So that book is coming up. That's mine. But there's another book that I will mention for your audience. It's actually two books, if that's all right. The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison. And it's about the pain of invisibility and the journey to reclaiming your own self, your beauty, and who you are. It's really beautiful and it's helped me a lot. It's affirming, it's joyful. And some of your listeners might be interested. The other book that I'll recommend is Traces of History by Patrick Wolfe. I picked that one because he's an Australian author. He's no longer with us, but he charts the formation of Australia, the history that's not easily accessible, you know, the fact that Australia was built on racist ideology. And how that impacts our First Nation peoples even to today. It would give the migrants so much understanding of First Nation people. And so I highly recommend that book, Traces of History by Patrick Wolfe. Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 44:53
Wow. You sold it to me. I'm definitely gonna read the three of those books. So is there a guest that you would like to hear on this podcast? Someone that you are inspired by?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 45:05
Oh yes, my sister Aminata Conté Boudjeh. Now Aminata is a powerhouse. Yeah, another migrant, a refugee. Her story will inspire your audience about survival, strength, and how she then uses that story to help mothers. So Aminata Conté Bédié, I think, will be a great one to have.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 45:40
Fantastic. I love it. So I have two final sets of questions that I like to ask my guests at the end of the interview. And the first one is, when I say the word migrant, what are the words that instinctively come to mind?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 45:58
For me, it's adaptable. Adaptability. Our ability to deal with change, work through change, and come the other side is second to none. So yeah, adaptability, resilient, and yeah, reimagining our lives.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 46:23
I love that. And my final question is on belonging. And as someone who has had to suppress parts of their identity to fit in here, I wonder whether today you feel empowered to show up as your authentic self everywhere you go, or whether that is confined to a few safe spaces.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 46:48
It is a very powerful question. Thank you. And yes, the code-switching wasn't fun. Having a meeting and quickly having to make sure that the wig is presentable and brushed in a way that I can just pop on my head and hide my natural hair. I look back now and I can't believe I did that to myself. So these days, like I said, I work for myself, so I choose to wear my hair this way. And since making the transition, it hasn't been easy, and that's the truth. And so young people listening to this podcast, it's not just about someone who is just very confident and I just do it without thinking about it. It's getting to that, but it's taking me a long time. It's only been 18 months, by the way.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 47:40
Wow.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 47:41
18 months. So that's not very long. It's less than 2 years. That I took the wig off. And so it's a process, but now I can put my hand in my heart is that I am getting more confident and wearing my hair to more places than I've ever been. And each day is a routine that you have to go through, you know, that self-talk positive as I step out of my car to go somewhere. It's not something that if you've never had hair discrimination, it would not even occur to you, but for us it does. And I know that as I continue to work through the pain into being whole and enough, I'll be able to inspire more young people to do the same.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 48:29
And just when you say, you know, the pain, is it as well some rejection from the outside? That you have to deal with, as well as your own internalized sense, I'm not enough. But I wonder whether you faced some resistance to you wearing your natural hair.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 48:46
Oh yeah, it's the comments you get.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 48:49
Oh yeah.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 48:50
It's the side eye. It's the, oh, you are so brave to wear your hair like this. You know, those condescending comments come all the time. But now they land differently, and I think that comes with age, and that's why there's this sense of agency because I'm not young and I still have to process that every day. And so it makes me think, wow, my younger self or the younger people now, it must be so hard for them. So yes, that comes without stopping. It comes all the time, but the way in which they land on me as a person is becoming less and less and less and less. And as that becomes less and less, I'm becoming more and more and more of me, which is really a great thing.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 49:50
And how do you detach yourself from the eyes of the other, from the impact that their perception has on you?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 50:00
Is not to fight it, but to actually process it and let— and sometimes it's painful— let the pain run its course. It is not fair because there are other people that never have to go through that, fortunately or unfortunately. We are born Black. We have very visible hair, which the Eurocentric powerful people who set up the world decided that that kind of look is unprofessional, inappropriate, and not acceptable. And so we have to continually come up against it. So it's not about taking the wig off and then it's done. It's an ongoing process, and that's probably the hardest thing because will young people have the aptitude, the stamina, the maturity to deal with it is the questions that we need to be asking. And when I ask that question, and I've been a young person myself, no, I would have found it very hard taking the wig off in my 20s, in my 30s, even in my 40s. And so now in my 50s, I have so much more compassion to know that it's not an easy thing. And when those things come at me, I have a level of maturity to be able to process it and say, you know, that bit doesn't belong to me. Your problem of seeing my hair like this is not going to come with me home to my family, and I'm leaving it there. It's not just about ourselves, but also the young people in our community, how that lands for them and the impact that has on them. Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 52:04
Something that you were sharing with me that really stuck with me when we first met is is this tendency that non-Black people have to touch African hair. Tell me a bit more about that, what it represents and why we need to stop that.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 52:21
It is a big problem, actually, the touching of Black people's hair, because if you stop and think about it, like I said, half my family are white and I have actually done that experiment. On my white sisters-in-law, and they were like, whoa, a stranger coming to touch my hair? What do you mean? That is so inappropriate. And I say, yeah, I know, but that happens to us and our young ones. Even last week. So this is what I'm saying to you. It doesn't just stop. Last week, a mother, because of the work I do on social media, people recognize me. And the mother sent me a message to say that her 4-year-old daughter at preschool, their hair were being touched, and she was collecting the child from preschool and it happened. So she had a conversation with the mother, but I can assure you that it will be happening when she's not there because what that does is that it's almost like you've got a pet, an animal that you can just brush and touch their hair anytime you want because it's a personal thing. Imagine just walking down on the street and someone stopping you and say, "Can I touch your hair?" Or sometimes the young ones, they reach out and touch their hair without permission, you know. And when you think about it, it's not right, but it happens. You can be curious about something and have conversation about it, but reach out and touch someone's hair? But also there's the other side of the fact that, and this is what I was saying, we need to normalize Black women and young girls and our hair. Because when we do that, it removes that novelty out of it. So that as society we realize that, well, they are also a group of human in our society and they share our society. This is what they look like because we've had opportunity to see them in our workplaces, on television, in brochures. So when we see them, we are not confronted by them. It becomes normal. And so the fact that That normality is not normalized. It's why there's this element of curiosity that people want to touch the hair, and we can actually do something about it. And that is one of the solutions, is that we need to stop making it so foreign that we have to go and touch it. Why don't we normalize it? That there are also group of people that they've been created to occupy spaces just like everyone else, and they just happen to have hair that's different.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 55:32
I have one last question about your sense of belonging. So as a minority migrant, do you feel like Australia is home, or does Ghana still give you that greater sense of belonging?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 55:48
The way I approach that question is that for me, I feel most home and a sense of place when I feel peace and safety. And so my home, for example, is the sanctuary. So every time I'm home, I feel very relaxed and home. But also Ghana is a part of me. Ghana is in my bones, and so it will always be with me. But my children's father is Australian, blue-eyed Aussie, and so half my kids, Australia is their home. Both countries are home to me, and but the way that I've learned to even create more home is through safety and truth and the work I do. Is what really makes me feel a sense of place.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 56:50
I love your answer. Is there anything that you would like to add before we end the interview?
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 56:55
Just to say hi to fellow migrants, to let you know that Australia is a beautiful country. There's no two ways about that. Talking about racism or issues that we face, does not take away the fact that it is a beautiful country, and so I want to end on that note. It is a beautiful country. At the same time, I want you to know that there are some people who share this beautiful country who experience this kind of behavior on a daily basis, and so to be aware so then you can actually do something about it. But yes, I've been in many different countries and I always love coming back to Australia because it is a glorious, beautiful country.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 57:48
Gloria, thank you so much for sharing your story so authentically. As you say, when you hear stories like that, you cannot unsee it. I think I'm going to really approach the world differently based on the story that you've shared with me, and it's going to be in my mind now. And I'm really grateful for the honesty, for the wealth of wisdom that you shared on my podcast. Thank you so much.
Gloria Tabi (Guest) · 58:15
Thank you so much for having me. You are a very beautiful interviewer. I'm sure people have told you. I have felt very comfortable talking to you, and I thank my God for our path being crossed because I can see a long-term friendship from here on. And I thank you for everything.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 58:37
Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to the show. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Gloria and all the wise insights she has shared. If you did, and want to help us grow, make sure you follow us and show us some love with likes and stars in the ratings. Your support helps more than I can say. Next week, I will be interviewing Natalia Gomez, a Colombian immigrant who has worked tirelessly to rebuild her career as a veterinarian in Australia. I was your host, Emma Bellamy, and I I cannot wait to bring you on another journey from there to here.
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