Darren Wagner · 72 min
A former police officer and paramedic who survived PTSD, a suicide attempt, and the Sandy Hook tragedy now trains peer workers across Australia to hold hope for others, proving that lived experience is not a deficit but a professional superpower.
Hear this story
Darren Wagner grew up moving between countries, from Iran before the revolution through rural America, drawn early to helping others in crisis. He became a paramedic and then a police officer, but after 12 years witnessing suffering he couldn't fix, he was diagnosed with PTSD (what he now calls moral injury) and told by a psychiatrist he would never work again. A suicide attempt was interrupted by a friend who showed up unexpectedly. Rather than face that pain, Darren moved to Australia with his Australian wife, trying to escape across the world.
Then Sandy Hook happened. His son survived the school shooting in their Connecticut community. For two years, Darren became the public face of PTSD, marching in Washington for gun reform. But he discovered something unexpected: sitting with people who had lived through mass shootings, listening without trying to fix them, was where real healing happened. When death threats made clear that martyrdom offered no career growth, his family chose to return to Australia.
Darren went back to school to formalise what survivors had already taught him. He found that the lived experience he'd been fired for having was now exactly what employers wanted. Today he holds a PhD and leads training for hundreds of peer support workers across New South Wales, proving that the experiences that break us also shape us into something stronger. He holds trauma stories like inventory in a warehouse, pulling them out when they serve someone else's learning, then putting them back so he can have a good evening. This distinction between lived experience (the past) and living experience (what you're learning to live with now) matters deeply when we talk about mental health and who can truly sit with people in their darkest moments.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses suicide & self-harm prevention, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • Lifeline (24/7 crisis support): 13 11 14 · lifeline.org.au
“I will be very honest is that I have a history of suicidality, which has brought me a lot of grief over the years and brought me a lot of positive experiences that I couldn't have imagined.”
“I like to now actually refer to as a moral injury. This was something that happened on the job. It was a moral injury.”
“I was told by my psychiatrist that I would never work again. So 30 years ago I was told you will never work again.”
The hero, today
Darren was told by a psychiatrist 30 years ago that he would never work again, yet today he holds a PhD and leads training for hundreds of peer support workers across New South Wales. When Darren stepped away from activism around gun reform and began sitting with people who had lived through mass shootings, he discovered that listening without trying to fix them was the most healing work he could do. Darren holds the trauma stories of people he sits with like an inventory in a warehouse, he knows what he carries, can pull it out when it serves someone else's learning, and then puts it back so he can have a good evening. Darren describes the difference between lived experience (something you've had in the past) and living experience (something you're learning to live with now), and says this distinction matters deeply when we talk about mental health. Darren believes communities can guide each other toward post-traumatic growth when people with their own experience show up to sit with those who are suffering, because connection and compassion are what heal.
Yes. Darren Wagner is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Darren was told by a psychiatrist 30 years ago that he would never work again, yet today he holds a PhD and leads training for hundreds of peer support workers across New South Wales.
When Darren stepped away from activism around gun reform and began sitting with people who had lived through mass shootings, he discovered that listening without trying to fix them was the most healing work he could do.
Darren holds the trauma stories of people he sits with like an inventory in a warehouse, he knows what he carries, can pull it out when it serves someone else's learning, and then puts it back so he can have a good evening.
John Milham (Host) · 00:06
Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. In this episode, John Millum is joined by Darren Wagner, whose journey spans military childhood work as a first responder, and personal battles with trauma and depression. After years as a paramedic and police officer, Darren faced profound struggles, including PTSD and loss of identity.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 00:39
Moving between countries and overcoming personal pain, he discovered the value of sharing stories and peer support. Today, Darren uses his lived experience and living experience to help others, showing how compassion, honest conversations, and community can turn adversity into into hope and healing.
John Milham (Host) · 00:59
Enjoy this episode with Darren Wagner.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 01:06
Thank you so much, uh, Kuntugi Heroes. Welcome again to another Kuntugi Heroes podcast, and, uh, um, thank you for joining us today. Uh, we're back on our Stories That Matter path, and, uh, uh, I'm I'm always reluctant. I'm a little hesitant to do the bio. I always think it like, I don't need to advertise your story, right? I don't need to preface it. Of all the people in the world, you're the one who has the most understanding and the most meaning around sort of introducing your story. So Darren Wagner, thank you so much. A man of learning, of incredible influence, has made significant impact in education, training, and spreading the word around, changing the conversation from, say, the pathology of trauma and the pathology of grief and upset into the efficacy of of what that does, lived and living experience and so on. And so I'm fascinated to talk to you today, Darren Wagner. Thanks for joining Kintsugi Heroes.
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Darren describes the difference between lived experience (something you've had in the past) and living experience (something you're learning to live with now), and says this distinction matters deeply when we talk about mental health.
This conversation includes growing up in movement and displacement, the broken language and lived experience, from crossing guard to first responder, moral injury on the job, the attempt and the friend who showed up and moving to the other side of the world.
John Milham (Host) · 02:25
John, thank you. And thank you to all of our Kintsugi Heroes. I think when I first heard of Kintsugi Heroes, it was such an inspiration. It was an art form or philosophy that I wasn't aware of until about 5 or 6 years ago because I did use that term broken. Quite a bit when I look back at my story. And as you said, look, and I really love the fact that you said lived and living experience. It's something that I've been trying to get into this language when we talk about mental health and people living with challenges. A lived experience often may mean that it's something that I have had in the past and overcome. For many of us, Currently, I'm learning to live with that depression. I will be very honest, is that I have a history of suicidality, which has brought me a lot of grief over the years and brought me a lot of positive experiences that I couldn't have imagined because I just couldn't have imagined that wanting to end the pain, not so much the life. And I think, you know, I've heard many, many people say that, and I think even including yourself, is around that we reach a place that we just don't know if we can go on in that space. So I've had the great pleasure of getting to look back at my story because I think we all think we know our story until we stop and get a chance to pause and look and look back and go, well, who actually wrote that story for us? Was that me that authored that, or was that my father that told me that, well, you're going to be a Rabbidohs fan, or you're going to be, you You vote for this political party, you're in this church. What is that story that was written for us that we do take on as an identity? So it's been really a great journey and adventure in working out what is my story. I don't know. It's still being written. And with a little bit of time and compassion, opportunities such as this, you get to look back and go, well, hmm, which parts do I agree with? Which parts don't fit anymore? And what parts do I want to go back and actually reauthor? Going, I know that's what was said about me. But actually, it doesn't fit who I am now. And I'm going to rewrite that. And I'm really bad with English language. Now, my wife is a creative writer. She would be horrified if I tried to write anything down with words. That me and the English language, we don't gel well, but I can talk. But it's knowing your story is really, really important. Mine is unique as all of ours is. It's just the fact that I get an opportunity to step into a spotlight such as this to share. Where do I start? If this is a trauma-informed podcast, which I know that it is, is I can be honest from a very trauma-informed way on this podcast, and I will be honest with you and the audience. I'm an American. Don't hold it against me. You know, we won't go into talking about politics. That's one trauma that I won't breach— broach in this conversation. I can't explain, even though I work in mental health, I will absolutely not talk about or try to explain what's going on in the States. That being said, I was born there. I grew up in the military. My father was in the Air Force. So we got to do a lot of traveling, which as a child, it was really hard to make friends, really hard to connect with people. You're always moving. Looking back at that story, I had a great opportunity that a lot of people, and especially Americans, didn't get. So I actually got to live in Iran, where many Americans will never get to see again. So I was there as a young child right before the Iranian Revolution. So some of my earliest memory— some of my earliest memories really are being in beautiful country with beautiful multicultural people, beautiful land, beautiful food, ah, and then having an awareness of political unrest, um, and revolution. So it was because of the revolution that we were forced to move back to America before they actually took over the American Embassy in Tehran. So that was my first 3 years, from kindy to year 3, was living in a, an amazing Islamic community. And then going back to America and— ah, it— look, and, and it was, you know, to wake up in a beautiful culture and hearing the, the, um, the wake-up prayers and evening prayers coming out over the mountains. Um, yeah, it, it was special. Um, but then to, as a child, to understand what hate and prejudice is, to go back to America, and because the Iranians had taken Americans hostages. It was really the first time that I'd heard people talk about my friends, which were Iranian fellow students, um, that we should go bomb them, we should go and bomb the country. And, and it was really my kind of an awakening that there can be real prejudice and hate in the world. So we skip forward many years ahead. I wanted to become an actor. I can, I can put that out there. So I love the opportunity to be on stage. But as a teenager, my parents separated and I was sent back to a very rural community where acting wasn't welcomed. There was no opportunity to be on stage. So I did like anyone in my family would, and that'd be join the military. However, I had the misfortune of having a bad knee. Now, that bad knee set me on another career path going, well, military is not in your cards. That's just not going to happen. So, the next thing that I did was as a volunteer fireman. So, you'll notice my bookshelf back there, that those are my toys. They were my childhood toys, then they eventually became my adult vehicles. So, I started out as a volunteer fireman, paramedic, and then the top shelf there is 10 years as a law enforcement officer.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 08:57
That's an amazing drive and the parallels of it. Right. Do you know why that was a good choice for you? Did you feel it was because of lack of other acceptable options, or do you think it was something that you were drawn to anyway?
John Milham (Host) · 09:18
Look, I think that's a great question, John. Are drawn to something. We have to work. But I saw myself repeatedly over and over finding myself as a crossing guard, lollipop ladies for our Australian audience, in that space, if that's still an appropriate term. And if it isn't, I do apologize. I try to be the master of appropriate language.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 09:41
We all know what it means.
John Milham (Host) · 09:43
I'm always learning. So, you know, when I was in 6th grade, I was actually the crossing guard. So I would take the little sign out and I was always the lifeguard. I was always the helper.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 09:54
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 09:54
So it seemed to be a natural fit to go from one career into the next, different opportunities. Um, and I really loved the, the opportunity to be with people, um, in usually very traumatic or challenging situations. So I, I really enjoyed getting onto the scene, helping to be able to, with whatever tool or instrument or, you know, whatever was in my vehicle, whatever was on my belt, What is it that I can do to help ease that, that pain or suffering of others? So I don't think that I was aware of it at the time that I did see this from one career to the next. Was it a good career choice? Well, you know, after about 12 years of law enforcement and seeing and having to do things that weren't probably healthy and not having good self-care practices in place, those things take a toll on our body and our mind. So it was that hopelessness of not being able to help so many people that started to weigh on me heavily. And then receiving a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder, which I like to now actually refer to as a moral injury. This was something that happened on the job. Yeah, it was a moral injury. And without supporting people in those kind of careers and workforces, it's inevitable. For a lot of people. So I found myself pretty hopeless in that space. And it made sense to actually look at possibly ending that pain.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 11:29
Do you think the moral injury element is a form of like some form of emotional dissonance, like the idea that, you know, you have— there's a values disconnect? You're like, in some way, we're being— the concept of service is driving us, but service is actually not always what the outcomes are. Do you think that so many people in first responders and emergencies, they have that outcome, right? And there must be something that creates that sort of conflict in some way.
John Milham (Host) · 12:09
Oh, okay, absolutely. And this is, I think, what draws my passion, and I'll get to that eventually, why, why I'm doing the work that I'm currently doing, was that I was aware that, that the service had let me down. Um, I felt initially, I felt that I had let myself down. I let the community down. Um, I was of no service. I, I was told by my psychiatrist that I would never work again. So 30 years ago, I was told, you will never work again. You will always be on antipsychotics. My first, uh, yeah. Oh, there's so much positive in that one sentence that is inspiring.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 12:48
Yeah, inspire me, Hala. You're right.
John Milham (Host) · 12:53
Yes. Oh my goodness. And because I didn't know any better, you are the mental health professional. I assumed you went to school. Why wouldn't I believe that? I can't challenge it because I had no other reference point. So it made perfect sense to go, well, my life is going to be always on antipsychotics, never be able to work, which for me was something I just couldn't even imagine not being in a service. It was written right on my police car there, to serve and protect. And now both of those things are going to get stripped from me. And then that, that was my identity. So you, you, you live and breathe. I was seen as— everyone knew me as a canine officer. I taught in the public schools. I parked my police cruiser in my front driveway. It was a very rural community. Everybody knew where I lived. It was no secret. But to have that stripped away from you and then be known as, you know, someone with a mental, you know, disease.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 13:55
Yeah, my goodness.
John Milham (Host) · 13:56
Was, you know, and now a mental— then, and then, and then a mental patient. So, you know, it was a hospitalization because I did want to end my life, and I did make that attempt. Um, it made perfect sense at the time, uh, and it was interrupted by a friend, a fellow friend who was a police officer, and just happened out of the blue to drop by. Um, so, you know, I know that that opportunity I shouldn't probably be here. There's probably a sliding door moment somewhere that, you know, that I shouldn't, couldn't. So I was mad for weeks, months, that now that I have to live. I was really, really upset that now I have to live and what does that look like and what does that mean? So long story short, in mental health, we have a way of avoiding pain. And I met my current wife who was Australian. We met online. And she said, "You need to come to Australia." And in classic avoidance, I looked at the map and I went, "Okay, I don't know nothing about Australia." The American public school system let me down. Usually geography, when you're growing up in the military, the only geography that I really knew was countries that we had gone to war with or places that we had bombed. So that was kind of how I looked at my geography. So I'm like, Australia, I had no reference. This is pre-Paul Hogan. This is, so no Crocodile Dundee, no Sydney Olympics. We had no idea. So I did have to apologize and say, look, I don't know whether you have electric running water. I don't know what kind of government you have, if any. But I think looking at the globe, I think that's about as far away as I can get from my traumas.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 15:45
Certainly had that going for it, right?
John Milham (Host) · 15:48
Exactly. Look, it was either that or join NASA, which was also— but I thought, no, my physical— I would never make it if I couldn't make it in the military.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 15:58
Not with a dodgy knee.
John Milham (Host) · 15:59
Not with a dodgy knee.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 16:02
But you were lucky you didn't end up in Austria, right? So, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 16:07
Well, look, and for a lot of Americans, again, especially when we can't to spell properly. So I do know of another American who actually, she auditioned for a Broadway musical because I'm a big fan of theater. And that was literally what happened to her. She thought she was coming to Austria. So luckily my wife did explain to me that it was Australia. And we talked quite a bit about that. The thing that I didn't realize is that Qantas allows you to bring 2 checked bags. But the thing that they don't advertise at the airport is I was allowed to bring as much emotional baggage as I wanted on the plane with me. So I brought all of that. Yeah, no charge. Yeah, so anyone that's watching, look, if you're worried about emotional baggage and going on overseas trips, don't. It doesn't count. But you can take as much of it as you want.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 17:02
Doesn't have an extra baggage charge.
John Milham (Host) · 17:04
No, no, no. Qantas, you gotta give 'em credit. You know, you gotta give 'em credit. So when I arrived, I arrived and then eventually I did realize that I brought that with me. And so then I worked through it, built a beautiful life here. And then my wife said, "Wouldn't it be amazing for us to go back to the States and give our two children who were eventually born here?" So we wound up having two sons born here in Sydney, giving them an American experience. So I went, "You know what? I think we should." So we spent about a year looking at one of the safest places in America. So my wife was very worried about violence, gun culture. So we located a, a little community in Connecticut. It's called Newtown, but it was actually— wasn't even Newtown, it was a little village outside of Newtown called Sandy Hook. Now sadly, unfortunately, it's a word that most people shouldn't know. Um, you know, 12 years ago, um, it was something that the world had, had never heard of this place, thank goodness. Um, it was a beautiful, quintessential New England, Norman Rockwell New England town. They hadn't had a murder in 20-some years. We, you know, we checked the crime statistics.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 18:17
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 18:18
Wow.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 18:18
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 18:19
Did you research? Oh, my wife— amazing research to protect our children, as we do as parents, going, look, let's find the safest place. It's, it's very rural, remote, lovely community, only 45 minutes to New York City. So you've got all of the, you know, all of that going on for you. And it was, it was home. So we reinvented ourselves again. After 2 years, felt really settled, part of the community. And then one morning received a text that there had been a school shooting. The kind of thing that you don't imagine ever, not in that location and not anywhere really. You just go, this is 'Can't be happening.' And so my rational brain went, 'Okay, I'm a police officer. That's a false report. So that's just some deer hunters been spotted around the school. That can't—' So I'm trying to make excuses, um, until my son who was at school texted me, um, and had given me some of the, the news. So I was in the loop well ahead of CNN So we knew about an hour before it was being reported on the news. The schools went into lockdown. You know, thank goodness, you know, he survived that day. But we're always changed. So as a community, as a nation, we were changed. It was a numbing, horrific event that To this day, there's no explanation other than people have, you know, this was a very troubled young man who didn't have mental health support and access to a, you know, a high-capacity weapon. So a really bad mixture. We spent the next 2 years in Washington, D.C., going, as a parent, going, "That's not okay." So I became the public face for our community. So I came out to our police officers and said, look, you know me as the community photographer. I'm also an ex-cop. And I'm an ex-cop because I have PTSD. I had to tell— I had to have that conversation with my sons going, I never told you why I left the force. The things that I experienced and the things that it does to our bodies. So I had to very quickly become the face of PTSD. And say, this is what it looks like, this is how it feels like, and this is what we need to do.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 20:50
So there was— and sorry, that was because of the, um, the impact that this terrible event it was having on the people around you. So every day, yeah, Norman Rockwell occupants, uh, um, suddenly are dealing with, you know, something, you know, inconceivable.
John Milham (Host) · 21:10
Inconceivable, literally inconceivable. We were, you know, this, this, our community didn't have a single stoplight. And for weeks and months, you know, we were visited by the president within a couple days. We were visited by every news crew. There was satellite trucks from all around the world. So we, then we started receiving semi-trucks full of outpouring. So we, I've gotten to witness the worst of humanity, you know, really just the worst of what can happen in a community and to, to families and stuff. And then also balance that with love that I've never seen before. And people often ask us, "What do you think? How do you feel?" So we had to come up with a slogan very quickly, and it was "Sandy Hook, we choose love." We couldn't be angry. We couldn't, you know, of course we were angry that these things happen, but the way to counter it was we chose love. But love's not enough, sadly, is we need better policies. So love doesn't drive policies. I'm sure a lot of viewers may have seen, if you do watch American news, please don't. Oh God, please don't. But should you, often, you know, on the weekly school shooting thing, it becomes predictable. Mass shooting. Yeah. News goes out, the politicians go, it's too early to talk about it. Thoughts and prayers to your community. Thoughts and prayers. Thoughts and prayers didn't drive, um, better gun legislation. So I decided to take to the streets in Washington, um, and for 2 years really work towards better gun legislation. Not trying to take people's guns away, but looking at how do we have responsible gun ownership. And let's start with that. Um, kids having access to weapons, mental health, background checks. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe a rifle with 100-round capacity isn't the best thing for deer. If that's the case, if that's what you need to be a good hunter, we need better target practice as well. So I spent 2 years on the streets with the politicians, getting to work with amazing politicians and President Obama. To try to help change that. When I wasn't an activist, we were looking at the healing side of the community. So, you know, we still lived there. The school stood there. How do we, how do we deal with that as a physical representation? How do we deal with that? And because I had an arts background, we became very active in the arts community. So Broadway reached out to us. They were only 45 minutes away, so they, within about a month, we put together a one-night show called From Broadway with Love. 600 of the top Broadway performers, directors, musicians, playwrights, stagecraft people for one show. So I've seen— and it wasn't because— they meant well. But they also had to do something. So that, the way that event impacted everybody to a level that they needed to do something, whether it was activism. All they knew how to do was sing and dance, and they do it really well. So through arts and healing, I started to realize that I was probably more in tune with sitting with the people that had had bad things happen to them. Than actually trying to get, you know, so try to convince a lawmaker that this is a bad policy wasn't working. Um, sitting with an individual that, that understands deep loss and grief just seemed to be something that I innately had that skill set. So I spent the next couple years, um, as well traveling to every mass shooting afterwards. So whenever there would be a mass shooting, they would fly me, I would work with the community. So I've got to sit with so many people that have been impacted by such horrors, um, and such amazing survivors. It's their stories that I carry with me. It's that resiliency that I need to do something in honor of what had happened. Um, and, and I think we all can kind of understand that we don't really care so much about— and it's not that we don't care, but we have busy lives. So if there's a march for breast cancer, if there's something that we need It's usually those of us that have been touched by something that we then go, actually, this is a really good cause that I want to donate my time, my passion, my energy towards.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 25:46
Yeah. Can I ask you, like, if we look at some, you know, talking to a lot of people gives me a sort of range of, you know, in particularly in Kintsugi, where people often have stories of of challenge and growth and resilience and resurrection and healing. And I'm interested, but the response on a macro level to events like the Sandy Hook and other horrific things tends to often be about expressing the pain in some sort of tangible way. Right. In some way, it's like an avoidance strategy, right? You know, like sitting with the pain is unbearably likely. So the entire community tends to jump onto these activities. And I feel like it's avoiding in some ways, right? And most of us, like, you know, these, you know, these sort of community expressions of, of pain that turn into violence and trauma, you know, that's a form— that's the same energy that leads to, on an individual level, leads to suicide and other things from my point of view. So it's almost like a social suicide, right, as opposed to a personal one. Yeah. And I'm thinking, after you've gone through all of these groups and had these one-on-one and and small group connections and group connections with communities in pain. Is it the healing? The healing must be in those conversations and connections and expressions of empathy and of compassion rather than, say, the policy, right? Policies might make the next one less likely, but it's not going to heal the last one, is it?
John Milham (Host) · 27:53
Is that fair? Look, absolutely. It's such a valid point. I didn't realize it at the moment that sitting with others actually made me feel better. So I started to realize that it's that reciprocal healing, or kind of that co-reflecting, co-healing, co— you know, and I thought, well, this is exactly what I love to do is to sit with, not fix, not heal, not— I have no answers. You know, I can't save a person's life. I can't fix you. It's not possible. But boy, do I have the ability to sit and listen. Not, you know, again, not when we talk about that nonjudgmental of going, look, you know, you have a right to be upset, angry. I will sit here and just listen. And some of the best work that I've ever done in my life is when Darren kept his mouth shut. And I didn't offer any wisdom or, you know, this, you know, I was able to sit with and hear things that often others couldn't, the details. So we talk about, you know, kind of trauma-informed, which is an approach of keeping other people safe. So, you know, on this, on this show, of course, I won't share graphic details on the muck, the yucky, the yuck. It's not good for me. It's not good for you. Oh, the core audience. Um, I would never do that. Um, however, sometimes those stories are really important, and I've actually witnessed mothers who've lost their children come with me to Washington and tell the politicians in a very untrauma-informed way, um, the last few moments of their child's life. Policymakers needed to hear those not trauma-informed stories as a way of going, you allowed for these situations to happen, dear politician, policymaker in this space. So I've seen such resilience, such passion, such anger that— but it's that anger that's directed purposefully towards trying to stop other people from going, I don't want you to ever have to experience what I have felt. There is no reason that you should put your kid on a bus and ever have to worry other than maybe a school bully, and then we can deal with that. So, you know, I really feel for the young people. That wasn't my experience growing up, is realizing that we've allowed this just to be a normal thing in America, sadly, is the fact that, you know, we have well over 25,000 people a year that die due to gun violence. And that's an accepted number. Now that touches a lot of people, but we keep going, well, it's the Second Amendment, it's this, it's that, it's mental health, and I'm busy. And, you know, we keep moving on until those things, you know, eventually do touch and impact us. But it was that drive of sitting with people that I'm like, I told my wife, I said, I think this is what I'm meant to do. Marching hasn't gotten me anywhere. Talking to politicians definitely hasn't got me anywhere. If anything, it actually, we had quite a few gun legislation laws loosened as a way to kind of get back at us going, "Well, if you think you're gonna take my firearm away, we're gonna just loosen it." So I'm like, "Well, that didn't really work." But sitting with people and doing nothing more than listening to that story is some of the best work that I ever did. So when we realized we weren't going to change the culture in America, I had multiple death threats. So my wife said, you know, you will, you know that you're going to, you know, probably lose your life on this topic because I did multiple, people would show up at my speeches armed and text me and say, look, hey, I wonder how many of these we're gonna allow you to go before we stop you. So there was multiple death threats. Death. And I was quite happy. I thought, well, if that's what fixes the problem, then I might— wait a minute. Yeah, so I'm actually— yeah, I'm a slow learner. I'm really, really a slow learner. But I eventually do learn, thank goodness, is the fact that I went, well, I did a little bit of research, and being a martyr, um, there's not a lot of career growth in that field.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 32:16
Um, it kind of, it kind of aches and then stops.
John Milham (Host) · 32:20
Right. So, you know, yeah. And I could imagine a lovely park bench somewhere in Washington with a little brass plate. And I thought, well, I think I've got more to offer in that space. And we talked to our children and we said, look, what would you like to do? And they said, we'd like to go back to Australia. So the next day we were talking to travel agents, selling our home, selling our business and going, okay, we all got a second chance. So we all get to come back to the lucky country. Now I know, I understand that term. I felt like I arrived as an immigrant, and I know it's a poor analogy, but we lost a lot of innocence and finances. My business went under. So to have to reinvent ourselves arriving in Sydney with just the one bag of clothes, I left the emotional baggage, I think. Hopefully. Still, still work in progress, but it was less. So there was just carry-on this time. So yeah, it wasn't cargo, um, in that space. And then getting to reinvent ourselves and going, okay, what would we like to do? Living our best life. My decision was to go back to school, to go, look, I would love to learn about what happens to people when they go through trauma, mental health, you know, you know, even though I'd been a police officer for 12 years and daily was called out to deal with people that were having mental health challenges, never had one course in it. But I was always the expert to call, you know, you call 911, sorry, triple zero, when these people are having a bad day, but I had never had a single course. So I didn't understand what had happened to me or people that I sit with. So I thought, here's a chance to go back to school and learn. And really, really embed what I know to be true because— and it's the learning that others taught me well before I went into the books. It was the survivors. It was the stories. Yeah. Hundreds and hundreds of stories that sit with me that educated me. This was a formality of just going, "Well, I'm gonna get a little bit of extra book work and then I'm gonna challenge the book work by going, 'Well, actually, that's not true.'" So it's been an amazing opportunity the past 11 years now to reinvent myself and come back to this country and go, what can I offer you in Australia? How can I protect myself? How can I protect our community? And how can I serve you? And how can I help people suffer better? We're all going to suffer. We don't get out of this life without it. But how can we suffer better? And I've had a lot of great teachers. So if I can pass on some of that wisdom That's, I think, my career path.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 35:07
Well, that's— I feel that we've gained a gift. So, well, 11 years ago when you came back, right? Because your education, in fact, you are the PhDs and all of that. It's not just an education. You've excelled and contributed, right? And of course, some of the work on Live and living experience. And I'm fascinated to hear when you talked about listening and how there was reciprocity in that, right? There was a shared meaning gained from your sitting and holding space and listening with people suffering and having trauma and going through their process. And immediately what came to mind is that's, you know, in some ways lived experience or living experience, if we use that It feels like magic. And in some ways, listening and yet communicating in that way is actually that magic, that very thing that makes lived and living experience massively important in the next level of, say, you know, mental distress and community management of that fact. That's right. So would that be something you, like, you, you, that you led into your work with this and you talked about bringing what you had experienced into that? Is that, is, has that held true as you did, as you went deeper?
John Milham (Host) · 36:40
I didn't even know that there was such a thing as, we call them peer support workers generally within mental health. And I had, you know, so in my first hospitalization, never came across somebody. I kind of was really imagining what that would've looked like to have actually sat with somebody in that hospital space that's been in someplace similar, never exactly, but going, what would that have, you know, that probably would've changed my life. You know, I know it would be. So when I saw the first ad, 'cause I'm living in Sydney and I realized, I'm like, wow, it's expensive here. It's very expensive in Sydney. Um, so as much as— yeah, so as much as my karma bank account, I think, was, was definitely, uh, really well— and I was quite proud of that karma bank account. Um, when you talk about paying from your karma account into your rental, uh, no. So I'm like, well, I'm gonna get a job.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 37:38
They're less receptive to that currency.
John Milham (Host) · 37:40
Yeah, they are. They are. Look, it's— maybe it's a cultural thing, I don't know, but we'll We'll work on that. So I had to get that real person job. And I saw, you know, looking through the want ads, I saw this thing and it said, peer support worker, use your lived experience of trauma. And I'm like, you, there's actually a job that you want to go and highlight, you know, your trauma, your suicidality, your, you know, these deficits, which, you know, I was let go as a police officer because It was seen that, you know, when I said I was struggling with my memory, I wanted to work. They let me go because I was a broken tool. They had no idea how to support, fix, just, "You serve no purpose no more for us." So, you know, it was a disposable role. And that was exactly what I was told. It's like, "Look, if you don't come back to work well," There's, there's a lot of young men that want to drive that shiny car with the lights and the gun and the badge. You're replaceable. So you either come back to work and knock this PTSD stuff off. But once it was— once I was diagnosed, I was cut loose. You know, no support, no— and that's, that's really what led to that, that initial thoughts of suicidality was the fact that I would never be able to work again. You know, if, if I did take my life, it was a financial decision, um, that, you know, my, my kids would be better off. So these things made a lot of sense to me back then. And we know that that's not proper thinking, but when you— that's the only information that you've got is, well, I will never work again, uh, they're going to repossess the house, and your kids will, um, never be able to go to college or have a home. Right. Um, if there was actually one solution that seemed to make sense. So to be able to come and then have a job, um, because I thought, that's right, 30 years ago I was told I would never work again, and here I am getting out the CV and going, wait a minute, you know, I didn't graduate high school. I went straight into becoming a cop, so I'd never graduated high school. So to reinvent myself, study go to job interviews and go, so I would like to be a mental health peer worker, and I would love to highlight all of the things that have happened to me, which is now seen as a positive. And they're like, oh, that's, that's amazing, that's wonderful, that's a job requirement. And it truly is. It's a criteria of that unique role set, is it? And there's different lived and living experiences. So we have a great workforce now, and I'm greatest workforce that we currently have is in New South Wales is our suicide prevention peer workers. So that, that role, that criteria of you being a suicide prevention peer worker means that you've had to have some kind of suicidal ideation, thinking about it. Maybe there's been an attempt, or in some instances you've been a carer of somebody, but you do have a lived or living experience around that topic. That's the criteria. What I have since learned, that's such an amazing thing to have such a powerful, really impactful thing that gives you the opportunity to come back into the workforce and contribute, which like we were saying, that reciprocal thing of going, well, actually now I can pay my rent with the non-karma bucks. And I get to sit and listen and talk to people. And it seems to be helpful to them. Yeah, it's amazing what I've discovered over the past few years. This is where my PhD work is and my current training and education is we need more than just those experiences. Yeah. So the peer workforce has been around for 15 to 20 years here in New South Wales. And we, we know we do this innately. So we're wired for connection. So if we're suffering, we're just wired to talk or listen and connect. So we're often a lot of, and I'm sure a lot of our people watching and stuff would identify that you've been an accidental counsellor, an accidental peer. You've found yourself in that space.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 41:52
Yeah, would you say that throughout history there have been people who have been, say, community care peer workers, right? I call them often sort of community lodestones, right? They seem to be mag— magnets for bringing people together to have the right support for the right problem. But modern society has invented things that are far outstripping that sort of natural support profile.
John Milham (Host) · 42:24
Yeah, and that's true. So we know we don't need to put— sadly, research, we need to justify everything and quantify. And, but we know innately that talking to somebody that cares, that there is a compassionate, there is healing in that space. We just haven't recognized how valuable it is. And we're working within a system that has been deficits-focused for its entirety. So what is wrong with you is, you know, as, as when I, when I do lectures to the doctors and stuff, is going, often it is that, that first question is, so what's wrong with you? Oh, um, is that how we start a conversation? I guess. Um, um, yeah, so it's a deficits-focused workforce, and they are, you know, the old-school psychiatrists. And I keep this model here, is on my desk, to remind me that, you know, about 100 or so years ago, um, so this was— this, you know, you would go to school and learn Actually, let's see if we can get it.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 43:30
I'd love to feel your palms. Yeah, exactly.
John Milham (Host) · 43:33
So, oh yeah, I can see you're depressed. Yeah, well, yeah, because you're sticking your finger in my temple. That was science. You know, 100 years ago, I was a lunatic, you know, by New South Wales definitions of mental health.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 43:50
—because you were influenced by the moon, right? So that's why you were a lunatic.
John Milham (Host) · 43:55
Absolutely. And I'm all about reclaiming language. So I'm kind of liking that. I may take that language back. And I wear it as a badge of honor. So when you wear a badge and you work for a company, hospital, or whatever, and it says peer support worker, I know that all of my fellow colleagues know that that says Darren Wagner, and then above it, peer worker, which in their eyes says mental health patient. I'm proud of that. I'm proud to say this is what a mental health patient looks like, what a lunatic looks like. That we do have, you know, when you meet me at my lowest, you know, it might've been easy for that psychiatrist to say, well, you will never work again. You know, support, listening, you know, I'm not anti-drugs, but, you know, talk to us first of all. So I've been really honored and privileged to help support this existing as well as rapidly growing emerging workforce around having proper training, how to sit with people, how to look at your story, because peer workers are often seen as storytellers. So we would be brought in to go, "So Darren, can you tell us a really bad story?" I'm like, "Which one do you want? I've got a warehouse of them." Which is now, which is now why, you know, which which is now for a PhD is not a bad thing to go, I've got a warehouse of trauma stories. But I also then know how to look at them. I inventory them. I put them in the warehouse. If there is a policy or training or need, I can go into that warehouse. I've done my stocktake. I can pull that out. I can offer it up for consideration for research, education, listening with people.. But so that I can continue to do this job, I know how to put that back. So that, that, that trauma story goes back into the warehouse. Yeah. I go on to then have a positive evening and having lovely chats with people. But really holding, you know, really trying to hold, holding hope for, you know, for the— Aha, yes. Because that's really what I call peer work is really we hold hope for others. So you sit and listen to that story. I'm there not to give them hope. I'm there to hold it. Once they've done their recovery, they've found their aha moments, they're the experts in them. I could never sit with John, and in this session, I've only known you now 45 minutes and 37 seconds. I cannot be an expert in their life. There's no way. And, you know, and I have to earn your trust before you're going to tell me a little bit more and a little bit more. So it's been an amazing journey to get to this point and be given this amazing opportunity to support an existing but rapidly emerging workforce to really contribute to our, you know, our regional, rural, and remote communities in Australia, because bad things are going to always happen— our bushfires, floods, whether it's a man-made disaster or a natural disaster, we all get to see it and it will continue to happen. So how do we do that suffering better?
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 47:10
So you've raised so many points I want to explore, but let's see if I— first of all, you just mentioned how do we do it better? And earlier on you talked about post-traumatic growth, right? The idea that there is an after trauma, right? And of course, you know, I'm fascinated by the idea of that being on a community basis, right? So, you know, certain people, the lived-in living experience, can be also the guides for people towards post-traumatic growth, right, on a group basis. So the community itself can find a way to support, and through that support become positive after a tremendous negative. Do you feel like that's a real thing? Oh, look, you know, look, absolutely.
John Milham (Host) · 48:00
Like I said, I didn't graduate high school. I don't recommend trauma as a way of growing. So just for the audience, that's a disclosure. There are better ways to gain education and training and pathways into this field. Intentionality can cut the corners. Oh, absolutely. But for many of us that have had that happen to us, no fault of our own, it's just, you know, I used to go out and yell at the cloud gods going, "Look, enough. Please stop. How much more can I— I can't. I keep trying to escape the world. I keep hiding and the world keeps on, you know, the universe reaches out and taps me and goes, Hey, you thought you were safe? It's kind of like— yeah, it's a game of hide and seek. Darren runs around the world and where's Darren? Not where's Waldo, but where's Darren? And the universe eventually finds you and taps you and goes, hey, here's a reminder that you're human. You can't expect the world to change for you, not happen to you. So it was— you know, I was very blessed to actually, when I was in the States because of this event in Sandy Hook, a great Zen Buddhist monk by the name of Thích Nhất Hạnh, who massively— I didn't realize who he was when I first studied with him, but he received the Nobel Peace Prize from Martin Luther King Jr. So to study with— and I was quite skeptical because I really was— actually, I was rude when I first met him because I thought he said, "I'm going to teach you the art of suffering." And I said, "Look, I don't know what you can teach me." You're not married. You don't have kids. You live in this monastery. You probably don't pay your own electric bills. I said, "I see little monks carrying your tea around for you all day." So I was rude and condescending, thinking that this person had nothing to offer me through a story to teach me about suffering. And he just smiled. He was very short. He looked like Yoda. Amazing, amazing person. My first impression was, "You look like Yoda." and always smiling. So I, I don't trust anyone that smiles that much, especially when they're going to teach me about suffering. He said, tomorrow I will share my story. And as you can very well appreciate, just like, you know, Kintsugi Heroes, is the fact that it's so sharing the stories which humbled me to the work that he was doing in Vietnam around the Vietnam War and stuff. So I was humbled and I put in my place. It's been a— it's been very, very life-changing to have sat with so many people and then bring that wisdom back to me and then embed it into my training for hundreds and hundreds of workers who will sit— because a lot of our suicide prevention work now is led by peer workers. So it used to be we were just an add-on to mental health services. To now we have spaces called Safe Havens within New South Wales, which are peer-led services. So it's a space that people can go instead of the ED. It's an alternative to our emergency room to talk to somebody that has been somewhere similar. So you come into a very home-like place, often with nice coffee, safe space, and just have a chat, have a yarn. Sit with somebody and, you know, if nothing more, I can just sit and listen, or I can just sit with you. I can make you a cup of coffee and we can just sit. There doesn't have to be a conversation. It's led by that person. I have no agenda in the work that I do other than you tell me, you know, you tell me about you, not what the doctors have told you. I know that that's often, you know, one view, but my doctor, again, psychiatrist, you will never work. You tell me about you. I get to meet people where they're at, which is often at the lowest point in their life, hearing some very traumatic stories. So there's a lot of what we call vicarious trauma in this space. So being close to trauma will impact us. I honor that. I've reframed it because I have an awareness that sitting close to people that have survived and become so resilient through their journeys and through their trials, I call it vicarious resilience. So I get to reframe how I— when I sit with people, it fills my bucket up. So most people would go, "So what do you do, Darren?" You know, that typical thing. "So what's your name? What do you do?" at a party. If I'm honest, you know, if I don't want to talk about what I'm doing, I'll say I'm an accountant. And usually people pat, you know, well, they might ask me to do their tax return, which you don't want to do. I can guarantee My wife would. But if I say, if I'm honest with the person, I say, look, I work in suicide prevention, predominantly training. So there's a bit of a pause and then consideration. They're like, that must be hard. And I'm like, thank you. You know, it really is. Because I have to work with the government. I have to work with funding bodies. I have to work with policies. That's hard. The beauty of the job is sitting with people. Yeah, the stigma. Yeah, so the hard part's working with the governments and the funders and the so-called experts, the second generation of phrenology people that are out there.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 53:25
So there's so much to explore in this space, right? The idea that as we, you know, as lived experience and, you know, gains currency acceptance and position and begins to explore its role, there's tension between, say, clinical and community and non-clinical world. And you can understand that. It's like siblings sort of arguing about the last fudge on the table. Right. But The system is taking ownership of an area it doesn't support, which is that sort of community. And the statistics are not responding. We've had sort of 20 years of focus on improving statistical elements of suicide and domestic violence. Violence and mental distress and situational distress. How do we help the system? You know, you've been an advocate and also a peer worker. How do you think we help the clinical world to let go and to start, you know, allowing some of the wisdom of of the human side, you know, gain some sway.
John Milham (Host) · 55:03
Okay, and that's such a valid point because I, and this is why I really enjoyed studying Australian mental health history, you know, to go from, like I said, being a lunatic 100 years ago. And when I first came to Australia too, I thought, wow, Australia is really compassionate. So my first impression of Australian mental health was quite compassionate. Because there was these great architectural sandstone buildings alongside the rivers. I thought, wow, water views, great architecture, beautiful sandstone buildings. Wow, Australia really gets it. Until I realized they didn't, that it was, you know, 100 years ago, us— me as a lunatic, I was not allowed to travel upon the King's Highway. That was a law. So, so we had to put the hospitals beside the river so that you could bring me on large to the hospital and then into a tunnel into the hospital. I went, oh, okay, here we go again, the experts. So my take on it is because I've had the great misfortune of being in very fortunate, misfortunate places most of my life, I've learned that during chaos, there's often opportunities. And I think it was Winston Churchill that said, never let a, you know, good kind of disaster or chaos or thing happens. Never pass up on that opportunity to have to— and so I've leapt at that. And so every time that there's been a disaster within Australia, I've gone, I happen to know something, a little something. And I challenge the system going, well, do you think it would be okay if I went out with the responding mental health team to that community? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They're trained professionals. I'm like, well, I kind of happen to know a little something about how communities get impacted by disasters, man-made, natural. So having to challenge that stigma with compassion, and then getting a seat at the table, and sometimes it's a tokenistic seat. And I say, take it. So you're at least invited to the table. And then I sit quietly and wait for an opportunity to then go, well, Darren, you've been awfully quiet. What do you think? Think. Here's that opportunity to go, well, actually— and I'm not pointing the finger at the system, at people, I'm just going, you know what might be, and I'm just kind of curious, what do you think? And here comes this opportunity. So the, the pandemic was the next big thing, which I really elevated. So I took advantage of COVID because it wasn't my first rodeo. So when I was a paramedic back in America, I was a paramedic during HIV, so during the AIDS crisis. So I understood how panic, fear grips people, how we become really, you know, survival instinct and stuff because we don't know how this is transmitted. And so I've seen that. So I'm like, well, actually, no, I'm not afraid of a pandemic. And so, oh, so you would be willing to work with Absolutely. So I helped create the first COVID-positive mental health locked mental health unit in Sydney. So how do we balance that, that need with still having that lived experience? So having those opportunities to step up and now suicide is one of our biggest ones because as you highlighted, we've thrown millions and millions and millions into it with almost no result. Um, you know, it kind of ebbs and flows, but it's still not acceptable, and we're not doing a good job at all. So they're like, okay, we need peer-led, lived experience-led research workforce. But that does threaten the other professional workforces because they've gone to school for 20 years, all of this, to become experts. So I honour that. And I've also tried to break the stigma down between lived experience and professionals by saying we all have a lived and living experience. By nature of living, anyone lived through the pandemic, as you would understand, loss and grief, we all have a lived experience. My role in hiring and supporting this workforce is hiring lived expertise. So I take people that have that lived experience, I then support them through training, education, to develop, reflect on that story, that, that, and so that we can then gain a few skills which doesn't threaten the other professionals. And then we also honor— I know that you're not in an identified role in this team, but however, I know that you've You wouldn't have joined this suicide prevention workforce or mental health if you— and then there's usually this, the clinician will come over and say, "Can I tell you something? And here it is." We all have experienced stuff. You know, we all have a role to play in mental health suicide prevention. We all do. And so the days of we're the experts, you're not, this, you know, I have lived experience, but you don't. No. So we need to have these honest conversations. And that's what I really appreciate, you know, even just having this opportunity to kind of, you know, to start these conversations, to kind of break down those stigmas between workforces, between communities, by going, look, we all suffer. We will all suffer. How do we do it better? How do we support each other and really lift each other up so that when we do, not if, but when, life taps us on the shoulder and said, I found you. And you're, oh, rats, here we go again. That we have good supports in place for our community. Because the impact of a suicide loss grief, it's that person, the family, workplaces, communities, and sometimes the world. So, you know, our event in Sandy Hook, it rippled around the world. I'll kind of end on a little bit of a positive. I, I, I started out earlier by saying I wanted to be an actor. Um, there was a play written about, um, the tragedy in our community, and I know that sounds horrific, um, because when I, when I first heard it as well, that someone wanted to write a play about this, I was horrified. And I love theater. Um, yeah, I eventually did make it back to theater. So this play was written because I was— myself and my wife, we were interviewed not about the event, but how a community has resilience after the fact. So I'm now forevermore embedded into a play called 26 Pebbles, which is a story about our community's resilience. And I think the playwright contacted me a couple months ago and said there's been well over 200 people that have played me on stage around the world. Um, so that I can then continue to tell that story on stages around the world, um, Often they get the costuming wrong. So if there's any directors out there that are wanting to bring the show to Sydney, please consult me with— they always put me in plaid. I don't know why. I don't wear plaid, but just because I come from Ohio, there's always this assumption. But it's, you know, it's that storytelling. So it's been nice, you know, I get contacted usually about once a month by a director, usually from high schools, saying, look, I've got a student who's playing you. Do you have any advice? I'm like, absolutely not. I'm still looking. I'm still a work in progress. Once I've mastered how to play Darren, I'll add that to the script. But until then, just have fun with it. So it's been an amazing journey. And it's not to take away from what we all go through or will go through and what we've been through. It's how do we do it better? How do we have those honest conversations that don't jeopardize our work, our identity. You know, so by seeing me as somebody that, yes, when you meet me at my lowest, yeah, it would seem that I'm hopeless. With the right supports, a little bit of time, you know, we all have the potential to grow.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 1:03:26
I absolutely— and it's a wonderful point to think Just a couple of final questions. The idea that you mentioned identity earlier as being, you know, like, so the idea that identity is a key thing to, you know, to understand, you know, to healing and of course to be prepared to have some resilience. What do you think is important for, you know, say we're talking to parents or or young people who are thinking about identity, what elements should they concentrate on, do you think, that will give them a good chance to manage some of those troughs that they may encounter?
John Milham (Host) · 1:04:11
Oh, John, boy, I may have to do a book because I'm still learning. So obviously, I'm still very lucky to go— I'm still a father. So, I still get to mess up and I still get to course correct. But, if I was to look at any one thing, and this was through my own learning, is that we fed our sons, our two sons, the same food, the same shows. We took them to the same parks. And we were quite surprised that they became very different individuals. Surprise, surprise. So, it's that thing of going— trying to imprint what we want people to be hasn't worked, at least for me. I mean, if someone else out there knows how to do it, yeah, really allowing them to discover who they want to be and allowing them to make those mistakes of going, yes, you want to be an actor, let's explore that. Supporting people to, you know, to try on those many, many hats, going, oh, you want to be a policeman, you want to be a fireman, you want to be a, um, you Try on the hats. Don't get stuck into one identity because there isn't the one. We constantly, thank goodness, we grow through support, sometimes lack of opportunity. So sometimes the identities we take on may because there is no other opportunities. So we go, yeah, I've been a factory worker. I come from a long line of farmers back in America. So probably 4 or 5 generations of sharecroppers. We never owned land, but we always farmed other people's farms. So you go, "Well, what's my identity?" "Well, I'm a farmer." Well, is that true? Is that the only thing that I was allowed to do? When I was in high school, if you would have said, "Oh, we would love for you to go and do a PhD," that wasn't in my worldview. I grew up in the military. It's like, if you wanna see the world, join the military. You want an education? Join the military. That was— that's what my identity would have been. So, you know, I love these cultures where you go backpacking and you can go, you know, take a gap year and you find yourself. The world is rapidly and constantly and will forevermore be, you know, in flux. How we can have one identity at any one given time. I'm blessed now because I do have a giant hat rack metaphorically back behind me, that now I do get to go, I can sit with clinicians and go, yeah, I know what it's like to work as a medic. I know what it's like to work frontline. I know what it's like to work as a clinician. I know. So it helps me to be that bridge between those different identities, workforces, you know, we're the one where the, you know, we have the education, we have this. And I've had to challenge that, you know, going, my identity is based on, you know, 30 years of research by being in the system, by being restrained. You know, I've had— I've been put in isolation. I know what it's like. You know, give people a chance to explore. So yeah, I've had so many opportunities and they felt like failures along the way. So you go, I didn't get to finish being a plumber. I didn't get to finish being an actor. I didn't— eventually all of my worlds collided. So if there was any one thing, you know, the world is constantly changing, you know, dream, you know, literally give yourself that freedom. And hopefully there is a community we can support our young people to imagine being whatever. Let them try. Yeah, we do when they're playing, you know, little dress-up and we'll You know, they can put the fire hats on and we like that. It's funny, as they get a little bit closer to high school, we start directing. And no matter where we direct them, we still can't protect them. You know, being a helicopter parent, I realized that, you know, just sending them to school, you know, changed my life by not allowing— by— and I wouldn't be here, you know, if I was to to boil it down, if we had a good mental health system in place where there wasn't bullying in the school, because this is the young man that committed that act in our community, had been bullied his whole life. So his identity was formed by this negative, never picking him for the football team, never picking him, never sitting with him at lunch, calling names. These, sometimes we create identities and then we wonder why. You know, why did these— you know, as a society, we have to support, um, you know, even just school bullying. You know, I wouldn't be here if we had a better school bullying place. Um, I, I would— I don't know what I would be doing. Um, and it's not that I don't like doing this, but here's where I am. Um, here's where you're at. Our paths have crossed tonight. Um, I don't regret that. But I think that— Oh, I'm glad. And this is where I love— look, I do love my life. It's one of those things you go, well, would I trade it? Well, I don't get that option. But boy, do I get to learn to enjoy it? Absolutely.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 1:09:34
So I love it. And I think it's wrongly assigned to Marcus Aurelius, but the statement, pain is inevitable, suffering's a choice. Choice, right? And I think in some ways, you know, your work on lived and living experience and peer support and, you know, and the implications that has for ongoing resilience in the community and of course, you know, mental, the fight against mental distress and suicide and other issues. I think there's a real pathway that you're blazing for us So thank you, Darren. That's been an incredible opportunity and a wonderful privilege to hear some of that story tonight. And I'm keen to hear more of it whenever I can. So thank you so much for sharing so much tonight.
John Milham (Host) · 1:10:26
Thank you for having me on. And thank you for anybody that takes the time to listen to the story. Absolutely. And then read it.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 1:10:33
Yeah, there are one or two out there that give it a go.
John Milham (Host) · 1:10:36
Absolutely. Even if it's one. I mean, if it happens to be two, If there's a second one, absolutely, that's even better. But sometimes it's just, it's just that one that we will never know that. And just to come back to your point, it's like, you know, we, you know, suffering, you know, you know, we don't— sometimes we don't get a choice initially. But at some point, so yeah, we're going to suffer. And the people that I get to meet, I'm like, you get to be angry and miserable as long as it serves you. But when it stops doing that, So when you go, look, I don't want to live this way, I don't want— and then that's when peer support comes in and goes, okay, I can walk with you. Until then, absolutely be mad at the world, be miserable, you know, put the COVID over your head and go, I don't want to get out of bed today. That's fine. And that's a normal— that's, you know, we did something— we don't get an initial response. We don't get control over how our body reacts to stress and these things. But in time, I hope that we can all find a way to support each other.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 1:11:36
Yeah, yeah. Thank you again, Darren. Absolutely. And I look forward to reading and being a part of further your work down the track.
John Milham (Host) · 1:11:47
Cheers. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use "Broken" as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Darren Wagner (Guest) · 1:12:20
If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, Head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation.
John Milham (Host) · 1:12:31
Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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