[Music] Hello and welcome to the podcast from there to here. I'm your host Emma Bami and each week we dive into the stories of those who have rebuilt a home away from home. Today we have an incredible guest. His name is DH Palipano. Desh is a doctor, a lawyer, a researcher and a disability advocate who fled the civil war in Sri Lanka as a kid in Australia. He became kind of a legend. After a spinal cord injury, he became the first doctor with quadriplegia to practice in the state of Queensland. He received the Order of Australia medal and was the Queensland Australian of the year in 2021. His story is one of incredible resilience and transformation. Oh, and yeah, he's also one of the wisest and the most grateful persons I've ever encountered. Okay, let's jump straight into his remarkable [Music] story. Desh Pelipa, I'm so honored to have you on the podcast today. Not only because of all the things that you've achieved professionally as a doctor, as a lawyer, as a researcher and disability advocate, but also for your wisdom, your resilience, and your ability to fight for the things you believe in. I've read your book, Stronger, and when I finished the book, I thought to myself, whoa, what a story. I need to interview this man. And yeah, here we are today. So, thank you so much for being here. Oh, so happy and thanks for being patient. We've had uh we've had a couple of attempts and uh you've been so gracious and kind. So, thank you for taking this journey. Well, I'm very glad that I did. As you know, this podcast is really about understanding how people rebuild their life when they move from one country to the other. So I would love if you could start by sharing a little bit more about what your life was like in Sri Lanka before you moved to Australia. I know that you were only 10, but I'm sure that you have some memories about that time of your life. So the first 10 years of my life. It's uh I think about it often because it was not an easy world to grow up in. Well, it was a country that was at war where the Singhalles and Tamil people were uh fighting each other and then uh there was a political war as well within that and there was so much violence and struggle and people were dying and I saw a lot of violence myself when I was a kid. I've seen people being burnt alive. I've seen people uh who are beheaded. I've seen people being shot. I've seen all sorts of bad things and I saw poverty and corruption. So I saw a lot of things in those first 10 years of life. But the thing is I don't know if I'm scarred by any of it because my mom really gave me a good life. She protected me. I I was always happy. You know, some of my fondest memories were of my mom making cake in the afternoon. And I can still smell that. I remember riding my bike around and going to the bakery which was right near our house. So I got a lot of good memories as well. I remember Christmas. Sri Lanka is an interesting place because there's uh so many different religions there. There's there are Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus and Christians. My dad was a Buddhist and my mom was a Christian and her family celebrated Christmas. I remember going to my uncle's house and then going to church and having Santa Claus come at night. So, I've got a lot of good memories as well. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Seeing all that hardship and living in a country that was experiencing so much hardship but still having some good memories of childhood. I wouldn't take back any of it. Do you know why your parents wanted to leave Sri Lanka? Did they talk to you about it when you were 10 or was it something that was a bit imposed onto you? I think it's why so many people come to this country or leave their home countries? This is a complex topic but a few things that I think about. We are so lucky in this country Australia and there are many lucky countries I think but people leave where they are born because it's hard like it's a hard life for a lot of people. My parents, they wanted to give me a a better future which they didn't feel that they were going to have in Sri Lanka because the war was going on for decades. There was a corruption, there was hardship getting to a school. So, um, but you see this everywhere, right? We have refugees from all parts of the world going to places like Australia, the United Kingdom, Canada. And I think it's just because people want a better future for themselves and and their children. I learned English from when I was a kid and I was exposed to Western culture from not not not the start of my life but during certain phases of my life. And so I was pretty excited about coming to Australia because there were all these things that you never seen, right? Like pizza. I was really excited for pizza and all these other things. It's it's just a different world. Sri Lanka was still developing back then and we didn't have fast food for example and we didn't have I don't remember going to a cinema. I don't remember seeing a swimming pool and and until we moved to Australia I hadn't really experienced any of those things but I knew that they existed. So I was really excited to to come and experience this new world. It was through the media that you had an idea of what Australia was like. Yeah. And I guess it wasn't so much Australia, but you know, you see the Hollywood films and you saw all this stuff sometimes on TV. TV only used to run I remember it started at I think 400 p.m. or something and it finished at 11:00. So there was only a limited amount of time through the day where TV happened. And we used to go to a video store. We rent the VHS tapes of movies. It wasn't even like it was pirated vide tapes that they had in those stores. But my dad loved action films. So we used to get all these action films and I used to watch them. I was like, man, look, everyone has a car in this country and everyone has a TV. Uh because not everyone has a TV in Sri Lanka. Just seeing those kind of things was exciting and it just felt like another world. Yeah. I wonder, you know, when you arrived in Australia, what were the differences that marked you the most between the two countries, apart from the pizza and the TVs? Well, the pizza is pretty good. I still love pizza. Um, the things that have really stood out about Australia is just the infrastructure. Like the roads are beautiful. They're they're big and they're wellmaintained and you get to go to places and the streets are clean and the buildings are nice and even residential estates and living areas they have a certain structure to them. So just seeing those simple things were just vastly different and even the way traffic operates supermarkets I've never seen a supermarket until I was 10 years old. And one of the other things is diversity because I mean how cool is it you you're from France and I'm from Sri Lanka. Yes. And we're here from in Australia having a conversation and that's beautiful. And and to me I that's what Australia signifies as well. When I went to school in Sydney I was like wow there are so many different people here and people that I've never seen in my life. I was blown away by the diversity. I was blown away that uh everyone has a shot. I mean, I know life is still difficult for a lot of people, but we had to start life again. And if we tried, we could have a chance at life. Whereas in Sri Lanka, I know that some of the kids that I went to school with, they just won't have a chance. Some of those things were really, really stark. And also didn't matter whether you were rich or poor or a Buddhist or a Christian or which way your political alliances were, you still have equal access to certain things like Medicare or public schools or or or public transport. So I think that was really nice to see. I I've I've never seen trains like I did in Sydney. So there were these beautiful trains and it didn't matter who you were, everyone could use it. Do you think that's why you adapted so fast in Australia? Because it felt when I read your book that you felt home so quickly here and you felt like you belonged and do you think one of the reason is perhaps that it was such a diverse country? I don't know like why do you think that is? I think a part of that is probably that we were really lucky in that we first came to Sydney and we were there for 6 months or so. So, we didn't spend that long in Sydney. And I think when we spent those 6 months in Sydney, I still felt like I was figuring out parts of Australia. But the cool thing was my dad got a job in Baron Bay. So, we moved to Baron Bay pretty quick. In my experience those days, Byron Bay didn't really have many migrants at the time. We were thrown into this little town. But the cool thing is that it was a very accepting place. So I didn't feel like anyone cared where I was from. The kids in school were really accepting. You know, I learned a lot. Some of my close friends when I was going to school, they knew that I didn't know certain things about culture. So they took me in and I went to their houses and I I felt like I was in a movie sometimes cuz I used to watch movies of kids growing up in western countries and going to their friends houses and doing stuff and I I felt like I was in a movie almost. So I was lucky to have ended up in Baron Bay where it was such a beautiful accepting culture um and a beautiful accepting place. that really gave me the chance to feel at home. And it's funny because when I heard you the first time, I thought, but where is his accent? I have a bunch of friends who arrived in Australia when they were roughly your age and they still have their accent, but you completely took the Australian accent. And you also shared with me that your home is in Australia. You feel like home is Australia. It's not Sri Lanka. So I just find it's fascinating how you embraced Australia fully, you know. Yeah. And I think a part of that is probably because I was in a place where I was just speaking English constantly. There were no other people from Sri Lanka apart from my family and one other person that we knew in Byron Bay. So no one spoke Sale really. And so we were speaking English constantly. I was mixing with all different kinds of people. I think I just picked up that Australian accent. And the reason I think Australia feels like home for me is because it took me in and it took my family in and it has given me the chance of being educated. It's given me public school in in in both primary and high school. It has allowed me to go to university. I had a car accident and spinal cord injury and it gave me health care. I I am who I am today because this country has given me opportunities and I owe it a lot because of that. So that's why it really feels like home to me. Do you think that your parents were having a harder time than you had adapting to this country? because they arrived they were adults and I think it's quite different when you arrive in another country as an adult as opposed to a kid because kids can absorb so fast so much you know I guess it depends as well of their level of English when they arrived and I think that from what you say it seems like they were speaking very good English so what do you think their integration looked like I feel like it was definitely harder um because I was really excited to be here I was excited to experience all these new things and but Sri Lanka was a lot more conservative. When I first got a girlfriend after moving here when I was going to high school like it's not a thing that was done in Sri Lanka. I remember my dad was very cautious. I think there was probably a bit of a rift between me and him sometimes because I was so engrossed in the culture here. But for my dad, he didn't actually want to take up the Australian citizenship straight away. He waited a longer than me and my mom who who took it up straight away. Interesting. Um I think for him it was a different journey. It was hard for my parents but from my memories as a child I feel like it was a bit more of an adjustment for my father. H and that must be quite interesting to live in a household that has a certain culture and then have a complete different culture at school particularly with your dad who seemed to be a bit was perhaps a bit more reluctant to embrace the Australian culture at the time. So it must have been an interesting dynamic in your house, you know. Yeah. And it wasn't just that actually. So there's a cultural difference between like going to school and then home. But then there was the relationships between my family and eventually after we moved away from Baron Bay between other families who were Sri Lankan and I think in those circles I always felt like an outsider. Some of those Sri Lankan families perceived us as too progressive. I've had uneasy conversations with other Sri Lankan parents who have told me that I was too I don't know westernized. So, so I've had some confronting conversations. So, I think you know there's that dynamic between me and me and the house but then there's the dynamic of uh their relationship with other Sri Lankan families. The cool thing about Baryron Bay was that wasn't really an issue. But when we moved away from Baron Bay to Brisbane, that became more of a thing because they interacted with other Sri Lankan families a bit more. It's funny, I was discussing with someone the other day. When you migrate to another country, the clock stops because you are connecting to what the culture was at the time you left. And even if it has progressed, you are actually end up being more conservative than the people who are today in your country. That's really interesting and that's probably true. I went back to Sri Lanka after 15 years and it was a vastly different place to what I remember. It was so westernized and I could pretty much get whatever I had here in Sri Lanka now. It wasn't very different. So the clock had stopped for me. You're right. I feel that in France even if I have been here for only eight nine years when I come back like things have changed but I remember France for what it was 10 years ago. I wanted as well to talk about your life as a young man. I know that when the decision to study at university came you decided and we have that in common to study law. You describe this period of your life as being particularly difficult because you experienced depression, anxiety, panic attacks, and agoraphobia. And I wonder what do you think led you to struggle with mental health issues at the time? I think it was a combination of things. I think the core of the issue is for me every time I start to drift away from who I am and the purpose of my life, I feel less joy and less energized. And I think that was a time when I had no idea who I was. Like I had no idea what I was about. And I read this thing by Ekart to I don't remember the exact words but it's something like when we don't really have a well-formed ego we try to find identity in other things like materialism things outside of us rather than inside of us or Yes. Perfect. So I think at that point I was really materialistic and I remember it's like okay I want to make heaps of money and I want to buy a nice car and people will see me as a respectable person if I have all these things. I was that kind of guy and was going out and partying and I was trying to be cool. I I saw this photo of me. I had a girlfriend back then my first love actually. We broke up for a little while and we got back together when I was studying law. She had this photo of us, which is a really cool photo. I I I like it because I feel like it's a snapshot in that point of my life. I I actually look like a gangster. I'm I'm wearing this suede jacket. And I'm wearing these jeans and I'm holding a corona and I've got her in my arm sitting on a couch at some bar and I'm not smiling. I just got this like plain look. Yeah, exactly. Bad boy attitude. Bad boy. And I think all that just caught up with me, you know? I think when you go down that road, it's a it's a black hole. It's a pit and you fall deeper and deeper and things don't get better. And it's a self-perpetuating cycle where you isolate yourself more or at least I did. That's how I got depressed. And really to come out of the depression was to put all of it away to let go of all those things and to strip all those ideas and to get rid of all those notions and to get to the core of who I was. And I love this poem and I quote it frequently. It was written by a samurai a long time ago. It says that my barn having burnt down, I can see the moon. Sometimes we just need to burn the barn down because the barn stops us from seeing the moon. The times where I've felt the happiest, the times where I felt the most free, the times where I felt the most energized is when I don't carry those kind of ideas with me. And I think that's what that was all about. And you think that when you pivoted to medicine and you finally found a sense of purpose that it kind of resolved as well the issues that you were having because it feels like that was a new chapter of your life. When you shifted to medicine, you found your purpose. Yeah. And and I was a new person. And you know what? I think a part of it, a part of medicine goes back to where I was born because I saw two people fighting. I saw the singles people fighting and I saw the Tamil people fighting and today I can't tell them apart really. So then I thought man is just about human beings and I don't have to care about any of this stuff. Even today I can go to Sri Lanka, I can go to Gaza, I can go to Africa, I can go to Ukraine, I can go wherever. It doesn't matter what else is going on. Medicine can be used to heal regardless of who the person is. I think there's a beauty in that. the upbringing and the war informed that because I I just feel that it transcends all these divisions that we create as human beings. Yeah. I love the way you see it. So you studied for 2 years and then your accident happened. Yeah. So I was halfway through medical school and then I had a car accident. So 31st of January 2010. It was 14 years ago now. Yeah. or over 14 years. And my life changed forever that night. I had a car accident and became paralyzed from the chest down and lost the use of my fingers. That's why I use a wheelchair today. Would you mind coming back to what that day was like for you? Yeah. Part of that story has to do with food because my mom, she's an incredible cook and she makes Sri Lankan chicken curry which still is one of the most favorite things that I eat. It was a weekend where I went home and I just wanted to hang around and eat mom's cooking and spend some time with the family. Thinking back to Sri Lanka too. Sri Lanka was once called serendip serendipity. And you got to fact check this story, but I think it had something to do with Sri Lanka at one point being discovered by luck. Someone called it serendip serendipity. And I feel like my life has been serendipitous as well because that day I almost thought about not going to visit my mom, but I did. And then I was not going to stay the night, but I did. And then I was not going to stay till late, but I did. And then I left the house very late in the day when it was raining. And I was going to stop at a friend's house, but I decided not to. I normally take a particular road from my mom's uh place back to where I I lived, but I didn't. I took a different road and it was raining and there was road works and uh there was a water puddle and my car ran into it and that was it. Uh my car lost control. If any one of those things were done differently. If I left the house 5 minutes earlier or if I left the house 2 minutes later, this wouldn't have happened right? I had to be there in that spot in that second for this to happen. The car rolled over. It was spinning initially and then after going off an embankment and coming back to the road, it started to roll front to back. It was so violent and it was so fast and it was so loud and it was so scary and it rolled and rolled and rolled and I thought I was going to die. One of the other serendipitous things that I think about in my life is I have been to a Buddhist school. I have been to a Christian school and I've even been to a Muslim school. So I've been a student in a Muslim school for a little while. And that's the cool thing about Sri Lanka is you get to learn a little bit about all these different religions and cultures. But by and large, I was raised a Buddhist. When I was having the car accident, I remember this lesson that a Buddhist monk taught. It's about how we view moments in life. And he says that we can view it however we want, right? We can take this moment and we can leave it as is or we can think about it differently like reframe it. He was talking about reframing things really. And so I thought, okay, I'm having a car accident. It's pretty bad and I may die. So I thought, okay, there's a good chance that I'll die, but do I want to spend the last moments of my life being scared? And I don't, right? I don't want to spend the last few moments of my life being scared. I want it to be a positive experience even in this chaos. So I I remember that lesson and I thought about it differently. I thought about it as a roller coaster and I chose to have fun in the middle of the accident. You mean like while you were in the car? In the middle of the accident. Wow. So, I had fun. I mean, really, like I had no choice, right? I wasn't going to stop the car from flipping. At that point, there was nothing else I could do. So, the only thing I could do is to choose how I think. And so I had fun. Wow, that's a very stoic approach. And in a situation like that, it's so hard to be stoic. Gosh, it takes so much strength to get to that point because yeah, it's just a full on. Oh, come to learn that it's easy to do the right thing on a good day, right? So when the traffic is going well and you get to work on time and we've eaten, we've slept enough on that day when we're in a good mood, it's easy to do the right thing. But I think when it matters, when it counts the most are those hard moments, are those difficult times. And so I'm glad for some reason that I remembered when this was happening because I don't have any ill feelings towards what happened that night. I don't have any regrets. Even after all of the things that should not have happened, what I find so fascinating about hearing you right now is that you did not get stuck on the what if and you decide to see it so philosophically. You know, is it now that you have 14 years of work and distance as well that you can think like that or were you able to think like that straight away? No, I mean straight away like yeah I was I was especially in the first couple of weeks, first few months I was really distressed. It was hard. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. It It was so difficult. thought it was so challenging. But people go through hard stuff all the time, right? People go through hard stuff. I could have had this accident in a really challenging part of the world. I still had it in a country like Australia where we had emergency services and surgeries and a big hospital nearby. I think it it's important to have perspective. And so I never thought why me? Because I think people go through hard things all the time. I have a friend at the moment who's got metastatic cancer and like that's hard, right? That's hard. I have a friend who's got a genetic condition and for them their clock is ticking really fast. Like we're talking five to 10 years. People go through so many difficult things in this world. But here I am. I'm talking to Emma Bellamy Dodd and I have a good life. Yeah, you really have this ability to be so positive. It's it's incredible. Sometimes I feel that some people have this innate strength and some other have to do a lot more work to get there. I wasn't as graceful as you are in my darkest times. I was actually not graceful at all. But I think I mean we've only chatted twice, but in those two interactions I think you're one of the most beautiful people I've ever met. You've been so patient and you've got all these qualities that led to who you are today and I think that's pretty cool. But everyone has their own journey. Speaking of that, even the fact that I'm here in Australia, I was in Melbourne recently. I was talking to a taxi driver who was taking me around and he said that he escaped Afghanistan. He said he got on a boat. So this boat got wrecked and it ended up in this little island where he was collecting water into the leaves of plants. And so in the morning he could have some water and eventually he got picked up by another boat and he ended up in Australia. And I just thought, man, like and he he ended up in a um offshore detention center as well. But I thought this is how badly this person wanted to be in Australia. And here I am. Like I I uh I'm here Australian citizen. There are so many people that would do so much. His journey is harrowing. Imagine having to collect droplets of water in the morning just to make this journey to come to this country. Yet here I am and there'd be hundreds of thousands of people that want to go to medical school, but I've had that chance and I I get to work as a doctor and there there are millions of people that would want the pair of shoes that I have. I think it's just about having perspective where in in in our darkest day, we're still going to be better off than so many of our fellow human beings and that's a blessing. That's how I feel. So, yeah. Do you think the fact that you are a doctor and that you were exposed to so many things going wrong because people who come to the hospital it's usually because a drama has happened that it gave you more perspective and an ability to be so much more positive about everything that you go through. Maybe I see people go through hard things every day who have experienced trauma. I've seen people who are going through lifelimiting illness. I see people being sexually assaulted. But you know, it's an interesting thing because maybe 20 m away from that, I'll see someone who has a painful tooth, but in their world, that's a big problem, right? Because it's it's painful and and it bothers them enough. So, I think it's all quite relative. I've also learned that we can't judge the size of problems that someone is going through, but rather we have to be empathetic to their experience of that problem. I think it's one of the things I've learned in the course of being a doctor as well. And especially as a doctor, I think that's probably one of the core things that we should value. And for someone like that toothache or the or the injury to their toe or something, that pain is could be the biggest thing that they're experiencing that day. That's okay. It's not for us to judge that, right? I think it's for us to be there and to help that. You know, I always quote my mom, by helping one person, we may not change the world, but we will change the world for them. M each one of us has a universe inside brightening or trying to help someone brighten up their universe every single day. I love that. It's It actually makes me reflect on a paragraph in your book where you talk about how your life experiences and living with a spinal cord injury influenced the way you see medicine. And I can't remember exactly what you said, but you said something along the line of our world is sometimes so risk averse that we forget that there is a a human at the other side. Yes, we have to navigate many rules, but the rules should not prevent us from exercising common sense and having compassion. I thought that it was just a really interesting way to see your profession. I think we are here to serve a fellow human being. I think that's our purpose. That's the reason why we exist. I think that's a privilege. I think it's sacred. This duty of being a doctor is millennia old and humanity has afforded us the trust and privilege not just with their body uh but with their soul and their secrets. You know, I always wonder, right, when I'm at work and where it's relevant, I can say, "How many sexual partners have you had, where it's relevant?" And then people don't think twice. They just they'll answer that question. But if I ask someone that on the street, like, you probably get slapped. Yeah. And I can ask the mother, "Do you use any recreational drugs?" And they'll tell you. That kind of trust is so sacred and that kind of privilege that we are afforded is sacred I think. And so we have a responsibility to serve our patients because we're afforded that. The reason we exist is for that other human being, not for anything else. It's not to get paid. We also work within systems that can be frustrating sometimes. And the systems sometimes don't enable us to serve the patient. Well, now always think we don't serve a system, we serve a patient. So I think if it's in someone's best interests and if they want it, then I think our job is to enable them to have that. But it's easy, right? I think it's easy when we're going about our work to get distracted in the mundane bits of things that we do every day, the sausage factory of work. And I think we can forget why we're there. And sometimes maybe we don't serve the patient the best as we should. And I think one of the reasons why I thought of that so much is because when I was a patient in the hospital, I hated it. I still hate being a patient in the hospital. And I love going to work, but I hate going to the hospital as a patient. That's ironic, right? That's damning. So, I think we just need to think about why we're there and I think we just need to think about how we serve our patients best and go back to that. I wonder if you have an advice or a word of wisdom that you could give to people who are going through a very difficult time. I feel like you are pretty well verssed at being very resilient. So, do you have an advice that you wish you were given when you were in your darkest times? I mean, we've talked a lot about uh different bits and pieces I've learned, but if there's one other thing, it's another Buddhist philosophy and it's about the impermanence of things. It's actually something that in Buddhism is talked about a lot and in probably stoicism and those kind of schools of thought. They talk about the impermanence of things. Nothing in this world is permanent. And that's okay. I don't think that's a nihilistic thing. But if we remember that we are impermanent, if we remember that everything around us is impermanent, it reminds us to really take in this moment that we have and to savor it, to squeeze every drop out of it. I love this moment that I'm spending with Emma Bellamy Dodd and her textured wall and the painting behind her and listening to her voice and uh seeing her energy and I love this moment and I think it reminds us that when we have the hard moments because we all do. Life is about ups and downs. So when we have these beautiful moments like this, we savor it and squeeze every drop out of it. But when we have the hard moments too, which will come, I think we remember that it will pass. There will be light. And when there is light, savor it. Do you have any book or movie that inspired you that you would recommend to our audience? Books have become a really important part of life because when I was laying in the hospital bed and even after I was discharged, I spent a lot of time still. So books became a really important part of my life because I read a lot when I was recovering from the injury and I still try to read as much as possible. There have been many books that have been transformative in my life but I think of late it has been a series by Ryan Holiday. All the books are about stoicism. So one is called ego is the enemy. The other one is called discipline is destiny. Uh the other one is called the obstacle is the way. And so this series of books that he's written is about stoicism and the virtues uh that we should aspire to. And I love him cuz he draws a lot of stories about uh leaders that have been in our world and how they've lived these lives. So Ryan Holidayiday's books have been uh really good of late. And as far as movies go, I don't know why, but Seven Years in Tibet, it was Brad Pitt. He gets lost in Tibet and he ends up in this monastery where he's transformed. And in one of Ryan Holidayiday's books actually he says that sometimes we have to get lost in the wild to find ourselves again. 7 years in Tibet is a movie about that. I feel like the spinal cord injury and the depression were probably times where I was lost in the wild and it helped me find myself. So, I love it. And is there a person that inspired you and you would love to hear on the podcast? Oh, my mom. Definitely. Your mom? Yeah. Yes. It would be amazing to have your mom. Yeah. Well, my mom's fierce and my mom's so strong and she's been through so much. I wouldn't be here without my mom. And um there is another person and her name is Shahina. She is a doctor who works in the emergency department. After I came back to medical school and graduated, she has treated me with so much kindness. She is someone that I trust so much. She's kind and patient. And apart from being this emergency doctor who who does incredible things, she's also an incredible mother to her daughters. She's an incredible wife to her husband. and she's someone who I consider such a close and married friend but also almost like a sister. She's very cool human being. Well, I would love I would love to have her on the podcast and yeah, both of them, your mom and Shannina, I have two weird questions that I like to ask at the end of the interview and the first one is when I say the word migrant, what comes to your mind? I've met so many different migrants to Australia and they're all so different. I don't know if migrant does does them justice encapsulates the the complexity of it. Yeah, I feel that it is a word that is perhaps not enough to describe the people that I know. And I think that's that's what I think of it. Yeah, it's a label that probably tells a tiny thing about someone, but it's not the complex picture of who they are. And the other question is, and I know that you kind of reflected on this in your book, what does it mean to you to be Australian? You said in your book that there was a time and I don't know whether it's when you came back to Sri Lanka after your injury, spent four years there and then came back to Australia. It's only one sentence in your book, but you say that it made you reflect on what it meant to be Australian and that you sat with it a little bit. So, I'm curious to hear your answer on this. I think this country has been built by people who believed and we must uphold things like a fair go. Like a fair go means everyone has to have an opportunity to try. I think those mates like you know we friendship is important. Those are quintessentially Australian words that are thrown around, but actually they have a great deal of value and we believe in equity. Like we have Medicare, we have free public education, we have access to universities, um we have the NDIS. Those are built on ideas like equity. We have we believe in justice. you know you and I are here and my family have been able to make something good in this country. So I think it's those ideas and to me that is what it means to be Australian and uh I think we all have to fight and remember and protect those ideas because it is a really precious thing and I think it would it wouldn't be hard to lose that if we all stopped believing in it. It's interesting as well that you kept that vision of Australia even though I know that you faced some negative attitudes from some of your colleagues since you've had a spinal cord injury. So was there a moment where you felt like you didn't have a fair go because of the way they treated you? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. But we we have to fight and and this is a country where we can fight, right? And and even a big part of that journey has been people who have been able to voice their concerns about this. I lived in a country where if someone voiced their concerns, we used to have a thing called the white vans and the white bands would come and take journalists away never to be seen again. But journalists wrote stories about what I went through and that made a difference. So we have a free media in this country and so there were tools to fight for a fair go. So no I I don't think I was getting a fair go uh sometimes when I graduated but I I believe in fighting for those things. Yeah. The way you see Australia is really beautiful and I can tell that you are very grateful to be here. I'm so I'm so grateful for this life. Every morning I wake up and before I start doing stuff, I think about things that I'm grateful for. And and always I think I'm so grateful for my mom and I'm grateful for where I get to live. So I am I'm thankful for this life. I can I can tell uh you're one of the most positive person I've ever interacted with. I love it. For those who would love to follow your work and what you do, where can they find you and contact you? Yeah. Um, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, I I work with, um, Griffith University and Bond University. Uh, and I think my email addresses for the universities are there uh, online. So please contact me if you ever want to talk, if you ever want to share ideas, if you ever have any criticism, that's that's cool, too. I think we have to connect as humanity. So please reach out. Well, D, thank you so much for spending this lovely hour with me. Emma, thank you for uh making this conversation happen and being patient and I think you are amazing and I hope I get to meet you in person sometime and uh I I think the world is lucky to have your light. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Desh and the story he has shared. If you did, please like, follow, and rate the show. This would make a massive, massive difference to the podcast. Next week I will be interviewing Nara Ayath, another remarkable person who will share her story as a third culture kid, but also her professional insights as a mental health professional who's passionate about providing culturally responsive care. I was your host, Emma Benni, and I cannot wait to bring you on another journey from there to here. [Music]