Alan Earls
An Irish peer worker who lost community at 18 and found it again through homelessness shows how connection, not credentials, saves lives.
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Alan Earls grew up in a small Irish village where community wasn't a choice but an expectation. His mother modelled service through local boards and clubs, and by nine he was selling raffle tickets door to door. When he left for England at eighteen, he lost that world and spent a decade searching for the connection he didn't yet know how to name. At 28, suicidal and broken, he returned home to his mother. A 12-step community in Ireland took him in after rehab, collecting him for meetings, bringing chocolate and readings, involving him in their lives until he felt genuinely loved back to living. Two years later, he booked a ticket to Australia.
Ten years of recovery became ten years of unravelling. His marriage fell apart. He separated from his children, drank again, gambled, and ended up without stable housing. What kept him alive was a single fact: suicide increases a child's risk by 300 percent. That knowledge, solid and durable, became an anchor through years of despair. While homeless in Queensland during COVID, Alan volunteered with Martin's Mission, a men's suicide support group that modelled simple, consistent service. That work refilled something in him. He came back to Sydney, still homeless, and applied for a peer worker role with NSW Health. He told his story honestly in the interview and got the job. Now he runs Sydney Community Safe Space and other initiatives that meet people where they actually are, with their own passions and pastimes as the entry point. Alan believes a spoonful of hope, held with patience, is enough. All anyone can do is plant the seed and shine the light. The rest belongs to others.
“Peer support brings knowledge, fundamentally. Somebody that has walked the walk, being down there. Carl Jung said it: I know all the knowledge, practice all the techniques, but when you meet a human being, just be a human being.”
“I moved away to England when I was 18, and I'd lost that community as a result. And that's probably where a lot of my troubles started. And I spent the next decade looking for a community, and without success.”
“They loved me back to life. That's where I heard that term and felt that term, loved me back to life.”
The hero, today
When Alan left the community of his childhood and spent a decade searching for connection without finding it, he did not know until he came home and went into 12-step that he had been looking for something he already had. Alan's reason to live, that his suicide would increase his children's risk of suicide by 300 percent, had to be solid and durable enough to anchor him through years of homelessness and despair. Alan believes peer support works because a person who has walked where you are walking can meet you at a human level and be a guide without claiming to have all the answers or trying to play God. Alan chose to leave his work as a financial advisor because he could not sleep at night knowing he was starting conversations to transfer money and charge fees, and he needed to live in a way that matched his beliefs. Alan's hope is that the people who try a service once and never come back, and the people who never come at all, will be met by connection in the places they already are instead of having to reach out first. Alan does not get caught up in the days that do not work; all he can do is plant the seed and shine the light, and trust that others will water it or do the work that comes next.
Yes. Alan Earls is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
When Alan left the community of his childhood and spent a decade searching for connection without finding it, he did not know until he came home and went into 12-step that he had been looking for something he already had.
Alan's reason to live, that his suicide would increase his children's risk of suicide by 300 percent, had to be solid and durable enough to anchor him through years of homelessness and despair.
Alan believes peer support works because a person who has walked where you are walking can meet you at a human level and be a guide without claiming to have all the answers or trying to play God.
John Milham (Host) · 00:00
Kintsugi Heroes acknowledges funding and was made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at cbf.org.au. Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. This week, John Millum has a chat with Alan Earls, a a man who's turned his struggles into a mission to help others. Alan grew up with strong community ties but felt lost after moving away. He transitioned from a financial advisor to a peer worker in suicide prevention, facing homelessness and personal setbacks all along the way. His resilience and commitment to mental health led him to found the Sydney Community Safe Space and other initiatives. Through vulnerability and a focus on hope, he overcame adversity and now shines a light for others facing similar struggles. Enjoy this one with Alan Earls.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 01:11
So ladies and gentlemen, listeners out there, it's wonderful to have you back, and it's an amazing and exciting opportunity for me to talk to a man I have, uh, spoken to many times but truly admire. And I would love for you guys to hear a little bit about Allan Ells. Thank you, mate. Thank you for joining me today and thank you for chatting on Kintsugi Heroes.
John Milham (Host) · 01:36
Thanks, John. I appreciate the opportunity.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 01:39
And yeah, Allan, give us the little, the, you know, Kintsugi Heroes podcast bio version of what you're up to, man.
John Milham (Host) · 01:49
So currently what I'm doing, and that's probably the easiest way to do it, is So I founded Sydney Community Safe Space about 3 years ago, and out of that we have Summerhill Safe Space. At one stage we did have one in Coogee, but we had to let that go 'cause it wasn't meeting the standards we wanted to meet. So for the last nearly 3 years, we've had Summerhill Safe Space, which is open every Friday and Saturday night from 5:30 to 9:00. More recently, we've also set up a men's space supper club in Summerhill as well. What we're trying to do there is just— men are a priority population, but we want to break it down even into a— targeted even more. So everyone in that has to live within 2 kilometers of Summerhill so that we can actually develop friendships and grow together. And then I also, in partnership with the Little Big Foundation, have set up Conversations Cafés with friends once a month in a couple of their buildings that they own. So one in North Sydney and one in the CBD once a month where we're trying to connect, trying to connect people who work in buildings and might see each other in the lift or the coffee shop but not really get to know each other, but also provide a kind of a triage or information for people who are struggling, or it might be colleagues or friends that are struggling and they don't know where to go, 'cause generally the top end of town is struggling with that. And then I suppose the other thing we do is we run education, so mental health first aid and SafeTalk. So that's what I'm doing, I suppose, with Sydney Community Safe Space. I'm also involved with the Public Interest Advocacy Centre. So I'm on the lived experience committee there around the Homeless and Mental Health Agreement of 2022, where we're trying to make sure that people who are coming out of hospitals and institutions get equitable and appropriate accommodation., and let us set up for success instead of just sticking them into a boarding house or a hotel and saying, off you go, do your best. Um, and that's, that's, um, that's been really good. Um, and yeah, and, and yeah, so that's basically the two threads I have at the moment, suicide and homelessness, I suppose. Uh, because they're both from what I have lived experience in.
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Alan chose to leave his work as a financial advisor because he could not sleep at night knowing he was starting conversations to transfer money and charge fees, and he needed to live in a way that matched his beliefs.
This conversation includes introduction, trained in community from childhood, ten years searching, then suicidal at 28, loved back to life, two years, one day, booked the ticket and marriage breakdown, relapse, homelessness.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 04:09
And that's, mate, you have just, uh, the drawers have just popped, right? We've got so many to look into, right? Really. Fascinating, mate. But first of all, I just want to say, you know, the energy for connecting is immense, right? And you've got all of those projects that clearly are coming from a place of purpose. So maybe before we sort of get into some of the technical elements about how you connect and support the community, maybe we could walk down the purpose track a little bit. You mentioned lived experience. Can I take you back to where you originally come from and how you got first to Australia and then into the situation that has led to this spot now?
John Milham (Host) · 04:59
I grew up in a country setting, small town, small village, the whole shebang, but where community was important and is important. I suppose my mother is a great mentor around that. She was involved in so much stuff, whether it was your equivalent of the CWA, the school boards, the church board, all that stuff. And, um, and it was just part of the expectation is that, you know, you turn up and you support your local clubs. And, and I suppose that's what, um, you know, I was out selling tickets door to door at like 9 years of age for raffles and stuff like that. And, um, So you were trained in community in your own— so when I look back on it, yeah. And, and, you know, I, I moved away to England when I was 18, and, um, I'd lost that community as a result. And, and that's probably where a lot of my troubles started. And I spent, um, the next decade looking for a community, and, um, without success. Well, partial success. I was in the Army for a while, and that was, that was— I found that was a bit of a success. But, um, Ultimately, you know, I couldn't find the connection that I probably didn't know I had at home. It's like that book I think Paulo Coelho wrote, The Alchemist. You always think the gold is out there, but actually the gold is around you.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 06:21
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 06:21
And when I was really struggling then at 28, I was suicidal and I went home. And it was the first time I was really properly at home in 10 years. And I went to rehab. And when I came out of that rehab, I went to 12-step meetings in my community. And it was a new part of the community that I didn't know, but they loved me back to life. That's where I heard that term and felt that term, loved me back to life.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 06:51
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 06:51
You know, they used to get people to collect me and bring me to meetings. They'd give me bars of chocolate. They'd give me readings, the right kind of readings to do. They'd involve me in some of their family stuff that they were doing. And And but they were living, you know, they were living, which was great. And, um, and I found that infectious and I really liked it and I jumped into the middle of it. And, um, they said, uh, don't do anything major in your first 2 years. So in the first 2 years I did everything I was told, and then at 2 years I said, I'm going to Australia.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 07:25
2 years, one day, booked the ticket.
John Milham (Host) · 07:27
Yeah, I had a sister over here at the time, she was working in Long Bay Prison, and she was, um She was struggling with loneliness, and then my mom was going through some health stuff, so she was struggling with being away from home. And, and it gave me the opportunity to move over. And, um, you know, I came over and I was, um, I had a community as soon as I came over because I was part of 12-step in Ireland. So I was able to come over and jump into the middle of that over here.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 07:49
Yeah, I've heard people discuss, like, I think 12-step is a phenomenon, and so many people, uh, have found their way back to living. I love that, love Love U Back to Life. And do you think it's a little bit like when you talked about the alchemist, right? The gold is in your veins almost. Do you think it's a little bit like finding, swapping sort of one commitment to an unresourceful lifestyle to moving to committed to one that works for you?
John Milham (Host) · 08:24
Well, they say in recovery, if you put half as much time into recovery as you did into your drinking or drugging or gambling or whatever your vice is, that you'll do okay.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 08:33
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
John Milham (Host) · 08:35
And it is definitely— you can't— and because it— there's no guarantees just by going into 12 Steps that your life is going to improve either. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that you're going to like everyone in there, and it's not for everyone, you know. And, and, and it's— there might be a time— it might be time-bound as well at times for certain people because— yeah, um, yeah. But it is, uh, you're just Yeah, sometimes just changing where you're putting your time, you know, instead of going to the pub on a Friday, you go to your meeting on a Friday, or instead of getting up in the morning. Yeah, so there can be stuff like that, but a bit more spiritual probably than listening to the barman or the bookie telling you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the next great thing.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 09:18
And of course, um, being Irish, mate, you, you're famous for your ability to, you know, do both of those things. So was that an extra challenge, your heritage and culture?
John Milham (Host) · 09:30
I didn't think about it growing up, but like, you know, when you look at your passport, my passport has got pictures of horse racing and drinks and music and stuff like that. So the only pictures, whereas other nations have like cultural animals and monuments, you know. Yeah, yeah. I suppose in Irish they say, 'Ciorradh Ól agus craic,' which is, you know, music, drink, and crack, you know. So yeah, I think that it's part of our DNA.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 09:59
Mm-hmm. But also part of your DNA is resilience and to look at others. So how did you, when you were back to life and you moved to Australia, how did you find— you said you had that 12 Steps tribe— how did you find connecting into what is a very new place, right? Like, so everything seems to be like a negative image of where you came from.
John Milham (Host) · 10:29
It's, it's not easy coming over here from whatever country you come from and landing in Sydney and then trying to make your way in Sydney because this— even though Sydney's a— I suppose we can call it a capital city, it's very parochial and it's people know people who know people. It's kind of like, you know, and, um, yeah, it was a struggle, you know. And I was lucky to have— was lucky to have that 12-step community, and I utilized it regularly. Like, you know, I— yeah, I would do 5 or 6 meetings a week easily, um, if not more. And I would do service in those meetings, um, you know, whether it was making a tea or, uh, or being secretary or or setting up the chairs and all that kind of stuff, you know. I was always that, you know, sometimes for me it was the before the meeting and after the meeting that was the most important part and not what was said in the middle of it. It was that opportunity to connect, um, and support the vulnerable person coming in the door, but also support them afterwards as well, to just say like, keep coming back, you know. I know it's, I know it's tough, but like, you know, you'll get there, you know. Um, and I think I really enjoyed those elements of it too, you know, cuz sometimes in the middle of, uh, I didn't feel, yeah, you can't connect always, you know, but you're in your head. But, um, you know, one-to-one with someone, it's a lot better. I, I struggle sometimes in the larger groups.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 11:55
So, and it's interesting, like there's life between meetings as well. And you talked about a lived experience and experiencing of, you know, focusing on, uh, your passions around Helping people with homelessness and suicide. So do you mind if I ask, what do you think? You know, life is ups and downs, right? And you know, things that, you know, we can deal with and things sometimes that get away from us. Your lived experience, where, what got away from you?
John Milham (Host) · 12:24
I suppose, you know, I was over here probably 10 or 11 years, um, before, um, I hit major road bumps. And that was the breakdown of my marriage and I suppose separation from children. And even though I was in 12-step, you know, you're very much only, you only know what you know, you know. So in that world, there is a belief system around some other support structures that are out there that can be negative, you know, whether it's church or whether it's SMART Recovery or whether it's medication and doctors and all that kind of stuff. And I suppose for a long time I ran that road, whereas, you know, um, AA is the only answer. And unfortunately, I suppose, when I needed more, I didn't know where to go. And so, um, I reverted to, um, what I did know what to do, and I knew how to drink and gamble. It's all, you know, and, um, and through that it brought me to homelessness and to suicidality and, um took me, um, a couple of years just to find the necessary supports. Maybe even more than a couple years, 3 or 4 years, because even going in and out of rehab, sometimes the rehabs, their transfer of care is called the 12-step, whereas sometimes when, when there's underlying stuff there, whether you've got PTSD or whether you've got trauma or you've got, um, just stuff from your childhood, um, you need that um, not just clinical intervention but other kind of interventions too, you know. And, um, and I felt that's what I needed, and it took me a while to find it, to be honest. Um, lots of trial and error and lots of pride, which was probably the biggest, um, I suppose, barrier to me getting the support that I needed. I was closed-minded around stuff, and, and, and I was afraid to reach out there areas that would have supported me if I was honest with them, but I was still trying to keep all the balls struggling in the air.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 14:29
Such a bloke story you're telling, mate, you know. Um, you have a heart for helping men through times like you experienced. What do you know that is so important for you to help others find out about that whole, you know, Pride and shame.
John Milham (Host) · 14:49
See, suppose it's like, you know, that can't make anybody do anything, you know. And the opportunity is with supporting someone is, is that you get— you can shine a light that might be a very dark space for them, space that they've never crawled into, they've never even tried to, to feel how big it is or how small it is or what's inside it or what's, what's holding them back. But, you know, If you can actually show some vulnerability and shine that light for them, I think, you know, it's like planting the seed. And that's all it's all about. Like, anyone that says that we can cure your trauma, we can fix your this, we can do that, I'd run miles from them. I'd, you know, take a sidestep, you know. But all we can do is shine the light. Tell them the tools that work for us. Like, um, I, I'm wary of trying to play God in these situations and, and trying to say what would work for this person. Um, I just tell them what worked for me, and I've tried a lot of different things, and it's a bit, you know, some of them work at times, and, um, some of them have longevity, but some of them were just temporary. And, but I'm always have to believe that I'd rather regret something that I've tried than something I haven't tried. And unfortunately, that's got me into trouble too.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 16:06
So you've got quite a catalog of lived experience, uh, to draw on as a result, mate.
John Milham (Host) · 16:12
So yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. I think, um, I think I have, um, those little drawers of, you know, my cabinet is all like those little drawers, and it's— yeah, there's lots of different things in there where I've, um, experiences that I'm happy to share one-on-one, um, if I feel that it's going to benefit them. But, um, it's sometimes, uh, most of the time it's not stuff that I share in the public domain, but on that. I'm happy to take that leap of faith with, um, with anyone, man or woman, to be honest. I've come across some women and, um, who have ended up with exact same situation as me through the same circumstances, you know. But, um, yeah, I, you know, um, I take that leap of faith sometimes that you never know, it might be enough for them to, uh, to wake up tomorrow morning and, and, and, and try a new way of living.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 17:03
I'm reminded of, uh, like Michael Jordan talks about the reason he hit 10,000 free throws was because he missed 30,000 in practice or something similar like that, paraphrasing. And often I think, you know, support, you know, connecting with people and stuff, like believing that you know everything, that it's a bit like that, right? You know, like the reason we can— you kind of know that you know less because you've tried more, right? You've failed much more than you've succeeded. But as a result, You get to a place you just can have confidence in, in helping blokes because you know that, you know, there's no right way or wrong way.
John Milham (Host) · 17:45
Yeah. I think as long as our motives and our intentions are clear and honest, um, with them, uh, yeah, there's no right or wrong way, you know? Um, I've been given tons, hundreds of suggestions and I've tried as many as I can because I have to take that Leap of faith, because there will be something there that will help to fill that little, you know, the cope with a hole in the soul or whatever that I need to fill at that time. You know, I might think at times it's money that's the problem, or I might think at times it's housing or all that, but a lot of the times it's what's inside. It's not the physical stuff, it's actually the emotional, emotional, I suppose, muscle that needs to be, um, repaired.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 18:32
Absolutely, couldn't agree more. So you— what kept you going through all of those explorations?
John Milham (Host) · 18:41
Um, I don't know, sometimes, like, because, you know, I have tried to take my life on a, on a number of occasions. Um, so there was times when I had enough, and, um, well, I suppose I had perseverance. Um, I turning up to different places and trying out different services. I had a couple of good friends and they kind of kept me going. And I really don't know, because I know men that have gone through stuff similar and not come out the other end. So I don't know what has given me the opportunity to come out, but stubbornness and perseverance maybe. And, you know, those things like, you know, I read this, I suppose, in my safety plan at the moment, you know. Unfortunately, suicide can be hereditary, you know, and can jump generations, you know, so people are more at risk. And one of the pieces of work I read was that if I was to take my life, that it increased the chances of one of my children having taken their life by 300%, you know. And so for me, it was kind of like, I'm very much into facts and figures and, and that kind of stuff. So I was like, you're taking a shot and you're going, which one of them, you know, like— and so, um, in my safety plan and the reasons to live, that's— I don't need any more reason than that, that, um, not to create a family legacy. Yeah, you know. Um, so I think sometimes that stuck in the back of my head, and I didn't mind blowing myself up, but I just wanted to make sure that, um, I didn't have any kind of long-term effect afterwards, which suicide does. Suicide has a long-term effect on families and friends and communities.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 20:27
So true. I love the idea, you know, like there's, um, uh, you know, a couple of people out there who talk about one reason, and, you know, who knows what, what that reason is. It could be different for every single person. But, you know, trying to help someone find their one reason seems like a pretty good process.
John Milham (Host) · 20:47
And it has to be solid, you know. That's my belief, you know. And my experience is that the reason has to, has to be durable, you know. Um, you know, if it's— if you're— if your reason to live is because you like sitting on that chair but the leg breaks in the chair, that's no good, you know. And the reason has to be something that, um, that is strong enough, um, for you. Like, it can be a, um, whatever it is. But yeah, so for me Um, yeah, when I'm working with men and working around safety planning and stuff like that, uh, I'm happy to spend this— explore that as much as possible, you know. And because I, I really believe, like you said there, sometimes it can be just that one thing is enough, you know, just to keep them going, something to anchor to.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 21:32
Um, I love the idea, uh, do you think your upbringing in the country town and that how you were trained in community. You think that helped?
John Milham (Host) · 21:43
I think I definitely do, because, you know, I've been involved in one, um, in projects over here where people go— it's kind of like, uh, paralysis by analysis. It takes them forever to get stuff off the ground and do stuff. Like, and I know with my Safe Space, you know, all I did was got the idea, got the venue, and said we're opening. And it's a pint of milk and a packet of biscuits. And as long as we are loving kindness, that's our risk, you know. So yeah, I do think that, you know, you see things being able to happen in the country, you know, when I was growing up, very easily, not overly complicated. And sometimes they can be nearly dictatorial in nature, but Um, sometimes to start stuff, you have to be like that, you know.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 22:37
I love that, mate. And of course, the safe space, uh, you were leading that model, that pop-up safe space model in the country, right? So, you know, highly innovative, right? An amazing achievement just getting it up and running. So, um, it's interesting because you committed to that service of your community, right? As you said, it's not, you know, just a pack of biscuits and a pint of milk. Where did you go from, you know, that being in those dark times and the triggers that were— and the exploration of something that worked for you that helped you anchor that and restore from those times? How did you then find service? Because you have been immersed in service ever since.
John Milham (Host) · 23:23
So during COVID you know, I was homeless. During COVID and where I was staying, they put me into a transition property and I was trying to do recovery. And even though I was homeless, I was working as well. It was one of them ones, but it was, and it was just not a safe environment for me. So I hired a car and thought, I'm going to Queensland. I'd never lived in Queensland and I went up there and I started volunteering for a group basically a mission called Martin's Mission, which supports people, men that are after suicide. And they just did it so simply and so easily, and they were consistent, and they did what they said. They had the barbecue when they said, they turned up when they said. And I think that, because I hadn't had service for a while because I was on the— I was, I was homeless and stuff, that, that started to fill my cup up again and can say to myself I thought, you know what, there's more to do, you know, this is a great model. And they kept talking about it would be great if we had funding to do this all around the country and stuff like that. And I came back to Sydney and I only stayed up there about 5 months, 6 months, but I was volunteering with them for most of the time I was up there. And I was also volunteering in another men's charity who were supporting dads going through marriage breakdown and access to kids as well. And I suppose that helped fill my cup up. And I came back to Sydney, but I didn't come back to like fanfare and blaze of glories, you know. I was still homeless and Salvation Army took me in, even when Family Housing said that I wasn't homeless enough. Like, I was living on the street, but they told me, you know, you can't just come from Queensland to Sydney and expect us to look after you, you know.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 25:21
Not allowed to choose where to live, right?
John Milham (Host) · 25:23
Yeah. No, yeah, um, because, uh, especially when you're homeless, you have to, you know, you've got so many choices really. But, um, Salvation Army took a leap of faith in me and took me in. And, you know, that's a men's shelter. I've been there before and, and, and I knew exactly what it was like. But it was still COVID times, so they put it into, uh, one-bedroom apartments out in Stanmore, and I was able to kind of really just get a plan together. What do I want to do? And they— I was really introduced to this idea of peer work when I was in Queensland. You know, even though I've done 12-step, they never really talk about it as peer work or anything like that. And so I was looking into peer work, and, and I just thought, okay, I don't want to do— I don't want to be a financial advisor anymore. Um, I'm very good at taking, uh, giving advice, but not very good at taking advice. So, um, yeah, I just needed to pivot, and pivot where I could sleep at night. Yeah, um, as in I'm not trying to sell anybody a product, you know. I'm not starting a conversation because I want you super to be transferred over, um, so I can charge you a fee, you know. Um, I wanted to be— live a bit more congruent, I suppose, but my belief structure, my value. So, um, yeah, applied to New South Wales Health as a peer worker in a suicide prevention initiative called Towards Zero Suicide, Safe Haven, and Spot Teams. And not believing I'd even get it, I was just trying to figure out what are they expecting in these interviews. And I was just honest around my story about where I've been at, and I got the job. And so I ended up being involved in co-design, the implementation, and the opening of both of those services. And it was an opportunity to learn so much in such a short space of time. Got funding, and then it was like all systems go. We had to write the model of care, we had to do all that kind of stuff. We really had to figure out what we were going to be providing and how we were going to be providing it. And yeah, we involved a lot of people in the co-design. But yeah, and it just opened that door for me then to be able to know that it is that simple sometimes. Yeah. You know?
Alan Earls (Guest) · 27:31
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 27:31
It is that simple. As long as you're coming from a good place, you can do a lot of good.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 27:39
So much to ask you. One thing I hear coming through all of your conversations so far is you often talk back to the right thing, right? Values, you know, a sense of integrity about what you do in life. What do you think is it? What's important about having that code for you?
John Milham (Host) · 28:02
It's kind of like, you know, growing up in the west of Ireland, you've got roads, but on both sides of the roads there's hedges. Yeah. You know, and I suppose those are kind of things that keep you in between the hedges, you know. And wow, and I might not do everything perfectly, and I might not, but my intention is there to do it the right way. And, um, circumstances or something can maybe perceptions can make it look differently. But, um, I'm always trying to stay between the hedges, you know, um, between right and wrong and doing the next right thing. But also, um, when I'm supporting people, um, being honest with them as well, you know. I like— I support a lot of people, and sometimes I don't have that lived experience. Yeah. And I say to them, honestly, I don't have that experience, must be very hard, you know. But I have these other ones which might be similar, but they're mainly— I don't have that, whatever it is, where they are struggling with a diagnosed mental health condition. Yeah. But yeah, and, you know, I'm happy to say my limitations, you know. They don't think that, you know, I'm playing God, and I don't want to feel like I'm playing God either. And I have come across people that would say stuff just to make somebody else feel better, but that's not what we're there for. No, I don't think so. Otherwise we'd be just handing out cups of tea and biscuits and saying, you're great.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 29:29
I, how do you be vulnerable if you're not authentic, right? If it's not you that you're trying to reveal, right? It's amazing. I love that metaphor, mate, to driving the lanes, but keeping within the hedges. It's brilliant. What, what do you think the impact of that has? Like, I guess what I'm asking is You know, you mentioned clinical support. Sometimes it's challenging to, or not as relevant or not as powerful. And you found peer support. What do you think peer support brings that is so important and so powerful to supporting the people who we reach out to?
John Milham (Host) · 30:08
Peer support brings knowledge, fundamentally, I think. You know, somebody that has walked the walk, you know, being down there. A lot of the time we're working in clinical settings or, and they have all the education. I think Carl Jung said it, you know, I know all the knowledge, practice all the techniques, but when you meet a human being, just be a human being.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 30:30
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 30:30
I think that's what peer work can do. We can meet people at that human level where we have a similar worldview, where they've come from, what they're going through, where they're going. But we have mutuality in respects of that. We have that lived experience, you know, and they might not see that at the time, you know, but we can be that mentor for them or we can be that guide for them and, you know, and we have that knowledge. And yeah, so I think that's the biggest thing I think a peer support worker can be. And that's why I'm kind of passionate around peer support, lived experience, working in the areas that they have the lived experience of. So that we can get better outcomes. So it can be challenging though.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 31:14
Well, one of those challenges I imagine is supporting yourself in the very environment that caused you so much trouble. What's important about that and how do you personally manage to look after yourself?
John Milham (Host) · 31:29
It can be difficult at times. You can see sometimes how the system fails people. And then I can, I can think to myself, how come I was so lucky? Even though my story, other people will go, oh yeah, you know. But managing the, uh, seeing poor decisions and poor outcomes for people is the hardest thing for me to manage because I have frustration then with the, with the system, of frustration with the organizations, and frustration with everything. So, and, and, and for me, my emotions are the hardest thing for me to manage, you know? So it's, it's just, um, I was talking about it on Wednesday night at, at our men's, uh, men's space supper club, you know. I have a very, very strict morning routine, you know, and I, you know, it's not overly strict, but it involves just making your bed, having a shower, having a cup of tea, and a couple of things that I'm grateful for. And then like I have a 3 o'clock alarm that I do the same thing. My grandmother used to say prayers at 3 o'clock, and people think it's, oh, he's having another coffee at 3 o'clock, but it's more of a chance for me to, you know, you're coming close to the end of your shift probably, and it's a case of me to take stock and not bring this stuff home, you know, and say a few little prayers and little gratitudes that, you know, that I am where I am today. You know, I've got a roof over my head, um, and I've got people to speak to. But, um, you know, yeah, try not to bring it home, uh, and, and, and that works for me most days, you know, a little 3 o'clock, um, prayer and coffee kind of thing.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 33:10
I love that idea, mate. Uh, it's like, um, I call it, um, putting it on the shelf exercise, right? What I don't need to carry on and complete the rest of the day with, I'm going to leave here and put on the shelf.
John Milham (Host) · 33:22
Yeah, well, that's the idea. So otherwise, like, you know, you're going into the next thing you're doing and you're bringing some wreckage or some of it and, you know, yeah, and I can, I know that I don't, yeah, it doesn't benefit me to do that, you know, so trying to leave it, there are other people just take their shoes off outside the door.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 33:45
Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 33:46
And do it like that, you know, but You know, for me, the 3 o'clock, 3 o'clock coffee makes sense for me.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 33:53
I love the symbolic power of the Japanese, you know, tradition of leaving your shoes at the door. That's—
John Milham (Host) · 33:59
yeah, when I worked in Japan, um, uh, it was one of the things I was told when they give me— like, they give me an apartment, um, as part of the job, and they said you're not allowed to wear your shoes in the, in the, uh, in the apartment. And they had a shoe rack there, and I was like It's my apartment. But, um, I think the first time I had a few drinks when I was in Japan, I came home and I woke up the next morning, I spent 20 minutes looking for my shoes and they were outside. So I, I adapted quickly to it. And I do— it is that respecting and leaving it out the front door. So yeah, you were—
Alan Earls (Guest) · 34:32
yeah, you stayed between the hedges. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 34:36
When in Rome. Yeah.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 34:38
And what do you— when you see people who are going through tough times, whether it's the same as what you have managed to navigate or whether, as you said, it's slightly different, but the distress is the same, the circumstance might be different. What do you see in them? Obviously compassion is part of that, but what do you know and hope that they can see? As well that you're seeing?
John Milham (Host) · 35:10
Yeah, it's, um, I hope that they're ready and willing, you know, you know, and that's really up to them, you know. For me, a lot of my experiences are still, still only skin deep, you know. It doesn't take a lot for me to tap into them when I'm hearing someone's story. I can, I can, that connection can, can build fast, you know. And, um, you know, but you want, you know Fundamentally, I don't want them to spend as long out there as I did. And I just try to tell them that this is the moment that you're at a crossroads. And worst case scenario, it doesn't work out for you, but at least you've tried it. And it's hard because we want things now sometimes. Well, most of the time, you know, when we're in that kind of stuff, you know, we want, whether it's access to kids or whether it's a roof over our head or we want a new job, we want it now. We just can't see why it takes what it takes, you know? And these days, everything, because everything is process, outcomes are not guaranteed in the timeframe that you want them to, you know? And it's just praying that they have enough patience Because I see a lot of people that come in, men that come into our, um, where I work in the homeless men's service, and, you know, they're expecting it, you know, as soon as, like, nearly straight away, and expecting goals to be hit that haven't been hit in the previous 20 years. Yeah, almost straight away. And, you know, you just pray that they have enough patience to stay around, you know. Um, it's kind of like I, I say, the good news is that it works. The bad news is it takes time. Yeah, you know, and, and, and the other thing is then they've got to have discipline, you know. You need to be disciplined about it as well, you know. Um, if we have discipline, we're increasing our chances, you know. And, um, yeah, it's a hard one because not everyone's ready to listen or hear. I know a lot of people think you're coming from a place, a place— I don't know whether it's an organization or that you're working for— that they think you're talking their talk when you're not. You're trying to have a I give them the advice I think that is appropriate, not what the organization just wants me to give. Yeah.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 37:31
Wow. That's warrior talk. I love that. And if we were to take warrior, you know, that sort of— I love to think of myself as a warrior, right? And I see you as a warrior in this space. If I was to take that analogy further, right? And I'd open the— threw open the doors to the armory and you could have any weapons you needed to make a difference. What would you be grabbing?
John Milham (Host) · 37:57
I always like that story of Pandora's box and hope, you know?
Alan Earls (Guest) · 38:00
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful.
John Milham (Host) · 38:02
I think if you got a spoonful of hope, you're in with a chance. Yeah. You know, that's, you know, and then patience is the other thing, definitely. Um, and, you know, for me, having a routine But, you know, but staying hopeful, staying hopeful is so— there's so much value in it. Like, even when everything's against you, yeah, to be able to see— I think I had an old sponsor and he used to like hold up a piece of paper and he used to say, if this is the problem and, and the other person is like 99% the problem and that's you, you know, that's the bit you gotta work on, you know. And like that with hope, That's the bit of it. There is that small little bit. Wow. And, and I, I just say like, whatever it is, just hold on to it, you know, because without hope, the results are, are catastrophic.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 38:53
What does, in your everyday, what does hope look like to you? What does it see, hear, smell, touch, taste like?
John Milham (Host) · 39:00
Uh, yeah, so hope, you know, hope, it keeps me alive, you know. I am personally, I haven't seen my children in 8 years. And I find that can be overwhelming at times, especially times of birthdays, school holidays, when you see everyone out there with their kids, Christmas time, family photos, all that kind of stuff. But for me, hope is that, you know, as long as I keep doing what I'm doing, you know, that one day things will be okay there. You know, I will get to see my kids, I will have a relationship with my kids. Hope is is, is to be able to, you know, be a better friend, to be a better part of the community. I could probably be better with my family, but because my family in Ireland, I, I haven't really been great around that. I haven't been a great brother or a great uncle or a great son because energy-wise I can only deal with what's around me sometimes. And, um, I've only got a finite amount of energy, you know. And so I could definitely hope to be better around all that stuff. And there's that hope as well as like right now, you know, there's far too many people taking their lives. And sometimes I believe, you know, that if we can make changes in the systems and if we can provide more appropriate supports and more proper connections and more information and education at many, at lots of, lots of points along the journey where resources can be given, You know, the first time I go to a family court lawyer, that should be a trigger event where information and counseling is supported. The first time I end up in ED, or the first time HR has to drag me in, or the first— like, there's lots of times where, you know, so my hope is that eventually the money is put into the right places. But, you know, unfortunately, the bulk of the money is going to the usual suspects always, and that's It may sound negative, but they're doing a job, but we're not moving the dial. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. And unfortunately, when it comes to mental health supports and suicidality and that, it's, you know, we're not investing enough in different opportunities for connection or for people to plug into, you know, prevention. Is where they should be putting more money in. A lot of the money and a lot of the programs these days are postvention, and everyone in that sector will say postvention is part of prevention, but why don't we just look at and say, let's do prevention and see what that looks like and spend our whatever we're spending on that for a while and see if that doesn't work? But I think you have to work both sides of the coin, prevention and postvention. You know, and right now I see a lot of other postvention. So I hope that we would see like, there's great things out there like Dads in Distress, like Men's Table, like Mentoring Men, like all these other groups are out there and they're doing it on the smell of an oily rag or you've got someone that's carrying the load or stuff like that. But like, imagine they were plugged into 9-to-5s in the city and you had a place where people could go in and they go, well, listen, this is what's going on. They said, you know what you need? 12-week program of mentoring men. And then, and then when you finish that, you go to Dads in Distress once a month, and to follow it up, you go and see a counselor. Like, we can do non-clinical approaches to support instead of just like— so I would hope that there's different ways of looking at things eventually.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 42:34
I love that, mate. Um, both your vision, your hope, which is really touching, but you, you clearly, you know, a bit of fist, um, shaking at the system there too. Because, you know, part of hope is, you know, looking forward to change. Right. And I hear that in you, mate. What do you think? Following on that point, right, you're starting to paint a picture of a world different. What do you— what do you know works?
John Milham (Host) · 43:03
Oh, I don't know. I think it's very— anyone that says anything works. And yeah, like, I know connection works. Yeah. You know, I definitely know connection works, and I know as blokes we're not all the same. You know, somebody like— some blokes like to go out at 6 o'clock in the morning and have a surf, and some likes— some blokes like to go to gym, and some blokes like to do nothing. Yeah, like, we are like— what we plug into as connections are different, you know. So, um, I know connection works, and but it's the appropriate connection for that person, not telling that person this is where you have to go. Like, you need to go to, you know, you go to your GP and he'll say, well, go to this program or that program, but it's not in line with what he does or how he behaves, so he's not going to get the most out of it. I definitely would focus on that connection and how people connect and get better at understanding them, like spending more time. And when the person comes in front of you and said, what were your pastimes, what were your passions, what you love, you know, and, and trying to, trying to use that as, as the, um, I suppose the, uh, silver bullet to kind of get through to them.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 44:15
Makes sense, man. And I've, I've kept you, um, for a long time, and I really appreciate it. It's been amazing to, to hear, uh, the wisdom that you have. But, um, I'll, I'll ask this final one. What is the world like that you dream about? What's the vision that you are hoping, that you are working towards making happen? What does that look like? What stands out in that?
John Milham (Host) · 44:46
I think we can, like, I see lots of it around, lots of what I like, lots of what's working. And so I think I'd like to see more of it. I think It's very good and it's great that all these groups are out there and my group and all that, the com— whatever. But I would really like to see the person that has turned up once and not turned up again, him supported. I'd like the person that hasn't turned up at all, how do we support him? I think there's a percentage of us that will always go to stuff when we're struggling, whether it's breathwork or meditation or when no one's watching, or how's the head, or all these, or our men's table, or mentoring. There's a percentage that will always reach out and do something when— but then there's a percentage that will just go try it once and that's it, and not go, or not go at all. I would like an ideal world where the person that's sitting at home alone tonight that is craving connection, is craving a cup of tea and some brotherhood, and is craving a life more fulfilling, that we could meet them where they're at instead of them having to come to us.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 46:00
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 46:00
Unfortunately, that's not always possible. You know, when you're struggling with depression, it's hard to go across the road and buy a pint of milk or a cup of tea. You'd only drink it black, then go across the road. Yeah. You know, so how can we meet people where they're at and how can we, find out where they're at. There are points along the way where we should be able to notice and make sure that we can find their people that are connecting with them so that builds better bonds because we can go into different places and we can support people, you know, but we don't, they know and we know that we're not their long-term go-to's because I'm not into I'm not into board games or not into, um, online games or Star Trek. Like, I don't have that connection around conversation.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 46:51
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 46:52
But you want them to find their people. Yeah.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 46:55
Yeah. That's bloody wise, mate. Um, last question. What are you hoping that you have in your life personally in the future?
John Milham (Host) · 47:07
Oh yeah. I don't know. I suppose, um, there's a guy back home, he always says striving for mediocrity. And because a part of that mediocrity is like, is that, yeah, I do have hopes. Like, I do have hopes just to, um, live a good fulfilling life. And, you know, whether that's with a partner and just whatever, I'm not too— like, it would be great. But, um, but also, uh, you know, for me, having regular access, um, to my children, but also to be challenged, not to be too comfortable in what I do at work and stuff like that. There's lots of parts there that will come eventually, but it's just, you know, they'll all come at the same time, who knows. And also that I suppose that, yeah, I keep that spoonful of hope. Yeah. You know, that keeps me going. And even though we don't have every day as a win, I don't get caught up in the days where we're not winning. Sometimes the stuff doesn't work or anything like that. Not to be taking stuff personal. It's not, all we can do is plant the seed and shine the light and that's it. And then hopefully there's people left behind us that are willing to take the next step and water the seed or start fitting out that little man cave in their head that needs whatever they need.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 48:33
Absolutely. That's a beautiful vision, mate. And look, I reckon energetically, you're like, I'm going to throw my donation into that bucket of hope for you, for all of those things to be yours sooner as possible. And I ask the universe to make all of those wishes happy happen, mate, because I think it's a beautiful vision. And I just want to acknowledge, mate, that you're working really hard to make it happen too. Not because it's not making you or I rich, but because it's, you know, because of those hedges, right? You're walking a good life, mate. So thank you. Thank you on behalf of the community. And thank you today on behalf of Consumer Heroes for sharing those really interesting and powerful words, man. Thank you.
John Milham (Host) · 49:21
Thanks, John. Really appreciate it.
Alan Earls (Guest) · 49:23
Good on you, Alan.
John Milham (Host) · 49:28
Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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