Zozan Balci · 66 min
Zozan Balci's journey from silencing her Turkish mother tongue as a child to becoming a celebrated researcher reveals how mixed-heritage individuals are quietly erasing parts of themselves just to survive belonging.
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Zozan Balci grew up speaking German, Italian, and Turkish in her home in Germany. One day she realised she couldn't speak Turkish anymore. As an adult, she wondered what had happened to a language she once spoke fluently, and whether others with mixed ancestry had the same experience. That question became her PhD research, and later her book.
What Zozan discovered was that heritage languages are not lost through logic or strategy. They disappear because of the emotional weight of wanting to fit in. When children start school and realise for the first time that they are different, they begin to distance themselves from their heritage language and culture. A research participant named Kai illustrates this perfectly: when asked to say hello in Greek during school assembly, he said "I don't know", even though he did know. He didn't want to be different. If he pretended not to know, he could be like everyone else. Over time, pretence becomes reality. Language is practice. Stop speaking it, and you forget.
But Zozan's work goes beyond language loss. It explores what it means to be ambiguously brown, to be asked "where are you from?" by strangers at fruit shops, in bars, at conferences. Nine times in one day at a New Zealand conference. The question carries weight because it is asked every single day to some people, and never to others. It costs them the space to talk about anything else, including their work. Getting someone's name right, by asking how to say it and making the effort, is a small act that removes a burden they have carried a thousand times before. It signals that you will not erase them.
Zozan moved from believing something was wrong with her upbringing to recognising that the systems around her were wrong. The multiplicity and critical perspective born from her experience are her strengths. Home is not a place. Home is the people around her who make her feel safe and like she belongs exactly as she is, without explanation.
“I am what can be bluntly described as ambiguously brown.”
“I didn't want to be different. I guess they didn't know. So if I don't know, then I'm like them.”
“If you do this sort of thing habitually, you pretend that you don't know something, you pretend that you cannot speak it, eventually it will become the truth because language is a practice.”
The hero, today
When children start school and realise for the first time that they are different, they begin to distance themselves from their heritage language and culture, not through rational choice but through the emotional need to belong to the dominant group. The repeated question 'where are you from' carries weight not because it is asked once, but because it is asked every single day by strangers who do not ask white people the same question, creating an unequal burden of justification. Getting someone's name right, by asking how to say it and making the effort, is a small act that removes a burden they have carried a thousand times before and signals that you will not erase them. Heritage languages are not preserved or lost through the value of bilingualism as an asset, but through whether the person who speaks them feels safe and wants to connect with the community that uses them. The before and after of Zozan's work was moving from believing something was wrong with her upbringing to recognising that the systems around her were wrong, and that the multiplicity and critical perspective born from her experience are her strengths.
Yes. Zozan Balci is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
When children start school and realise for the first time that they are different, they begin to distance themselves from their heritage language and culture, not through rational choice but through the emotional need to belong to the dominant group.
The repeated question 'where are you from' carries weight not because it is asked once, but because it is asked every single day by strangers who do not ask white people the same question, creating an unequal burden of justification.
Getting someone's name right, by asking how to say it and making the effort, is a small act that removes a burden they have carried a thousand times before and signals that you will not erase them.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 00:15
Hello and welcome to From There to Here, the podcast where we talk about living between cultures and everything that comes with it. I'm your host, Emma Bellamy, and today I'm speaking with Zozan Balci, an award-winning academic sociolinguist and social justice advocate. Born in Germany to Italian and Turkish parents, she lost her ability to speak Turkish as a child, a loss that became the heart of her PhD research into why we embrace or reject our cultural and linguistic heritage. In this episode, we talk about the emotional weight of being ambiguously brown, the sting of questions like, "Where are you really from?" and the complicated role of heritage language as both a medium that can connect or conceal identity in the name of belonging. We also unpack how small acts of inclusion what Zozan calls micro-inclusions, can make a real difference in how migrant and minority communities experience belonging. All right, let's get into the episode. Zozan Balci, welcome to the podcast From There to Here.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 01:44
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 01:48
Me too. I'm so excited to have you here. You know, your research about in-betweeners, people who have ancestries that are different to the country in which they live, was so, in my opinion, beautifully captured in your thesis and, you know, then your book, which is, I guess, a more accessible version of the thesis. And I shared this with you when we first met. I think that your thesis has a really rare mix of personal, deeply personal narratives and research, which makes it a wonderful read in my opinion. So I'm really excited and intrigued to get to hear more about your work.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 02:27
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Heritage languages are not preserved or lost through the value of bilingualism as an asset, but through whether the person who speaks them feels safe and wants to connect with the community that uses them.
This conversation includes three languages at home, why the turkish disappeared, ambiguously brown, not enough of anything, kai learning to say nothing and belonging decides the language.
Thank you, thank you. I feel like that was so many compliments already, I feel like we should end it here.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 02:34
Yeah, so to give people some context about what you've been writing about in your thesis and book, tell us about what is the story behind your work, you know, why this of study strongly resonates with you at a personal level?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 02:52
You know, it's quite interesting because a very wise professor once told me that pretty much everybody writes their PhD about themselves. And I feel that is very true if you ask anyone who's done one. So I'm no exception to that. I was born and raised in Germany, but to migrant parents. So growing up in my house, we spoke 3 languages. So obviously German, Italian, and Turkish. And you know, this was fairly unproblematic when I was little. We have home videos where you can kind of see we were talking all these languages with each other. I was speaking them all, but you fast forward to when I'm an adult and all of a sudden I didn't speak Turkish anymore. Wow. And so as you kind of get a bit older and you kind of reflect on why is that, I wonder what happened because I speak Italian fine. German is my mother tongue. You know, I speak English very well. Obviously. So, you know, what was it about that language that was so problematic for me that I didn't want to speak it anymore, right? And so that was really the question I wanted to answer. And I found people who were like me in that sense, so people who were born in one country and had parents from two different countries, so that they have this same constellation, and just kind of wanted to see, is it the same for other people? What seems to be the struggle here? What seems to cause people to speak some and not other languages that are available to them by ancestry or by heritage. So that's why we call them heritage languages. That was really the story behind the thesis. So these are the stories then I tell in the book and in my thesis. Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 04:27
You know, I guess what we should be saying is that mixedness, having a mixed background is still quite not understood by people. I feel that you have faced a lot of misunderstanding based on your background. Can you tell me a bit more about that?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 04:45
It's quite interesting. I mean, if you like, I can read the first page of my book because it's kind of funny. Maybe that'll amuse you. And so this is how I start the book. So I say, I am what can be bluntly described as ambiguously brown. People look at me and assume many different nationalities, language abilities, or ethnicities based on the way I look. At a fruit and vegetable shop in Sydney's Marrickville, I was inspecting an artichoke when an older gentleman walked up to me and said something in a language I didn't understand. As I looked at him confused, he simply said, "Aren't you Greek? Since you were buying an artichoke, I thought you must be Greek." At a bottle shop in Sydney's Central Park, the cashier wrapped my purchase and once again said something in a language I don't speak. "You look Brazilian, so I assumed you speak Portuguese," he says. In a taxi in Los Angeles, the driver spoke to me in Spanish almost the entire way before checking whether I was actually Latin American. When attending a friend's ceremony at a synagogue, I breezed through the security check because the security guard simply assumed I was Israeli and greeted me in Hebrew, while my actual Jewish friends, who were mainly of Eastern European descent, had to undergo questioning in English. One of the most dramatic incidents might have been a group of Iranian football fans at a sports bar in Sydney who thought I was Iranian during a Germany-Iran match. When I pointed to the German flag, which was neatly folded over my lap, their heads exploded. I eventually ordered one of those Ancestry DNA kits to discover my ethnic background. I did this partly because I was curious but mainly to print the results, roll the paper up real tight, and slap it across the face of the next person who asks me, "Where are you from?" So I go into how often I get asked where I'm from in pretty much any situation where I meet a new person. It is typically the first question people ask me, and this includes professional settings, as you can see, also just buying things. And what they want to hear is a nation. So they want me to say a country, and when I say the country I'm from, which is Germany, because that is literally where I came out, people are not happy with that answer because, you know, "Are you sure? You don't look German." "Susanne, is that a German name?" And so then I have to give more explanation. "Well, this is where my parents are from," you know, but the thing is, it's a very intrusive question to ask. I always kind of joke like, "Dude, we just met and you already want to hear about my mom?" Like, it's very weird. So this has been the problem because when we ask people where they're from, when we are trying to find cultural backgrounds, the first thing is we want to hear a nation. And if I say I'm mixed, they don't like that either. They just want to know, oh, okay, so your parents are that and that, so you are that. But also I think people misunderstand— or not that people misunderstand, but I do think people racialize cultural identity, right? So if I say I'm German, they imagine what a German person should look like. And I'm very mindful of German history, and obviously Germany is going to be famous for But you know, there have been migrants this entire time and a lot of Germans look like me. You know, that's not the stereotypical thing. We have this idea of homogeneous nations, of people should look like this. You know, we have the same in Australia. What is the dominant culture? What should it look like? And so when someone comes along and kind of challenges those ideas, we kind of don't know what to do with that. And the way I try to describe mixedness is, uh, I use a cocktail analogy. Um, so if you imagine your ancestries, in my case, you know, those two cultures as liquids that then get mixed into a cup and then get shaken like a cocktail, right? So the new drink is obviously its own flavor. It is nothing like the original two liquids. And it's also very hard to separate the original liquids once they have been mixed, right? It's like a new flavor and a new kind of drink. And while it's based on these two original drinks, it is absolutely something new. And you don't go by, oh, you know, I used to be these two drinks. It's more like, this is what I am now. And this is what I taste like now. Right. And then the other thing is also we kind of consider these original liquids to be homogenous as well. Most likely my parents are also mixed and their parents are also mixed, but we have this idea that, you know, this culture is homogenous and it's just that. So when I say my mother is from Turkey, this is what they imagine that she should look like, and therefore it also means she's not mixed with anything else, but she probably is.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 09:31
So it's the question, where are you from? But it's also about the follow-up questions when you actually state where you are from that I think are particularly difficult to receive. And there is a quote or a line that you say in your book that I thought it was painful. You said that those follow-up questions sometimes imply that you are not being enough of anything to be considered something.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 10:00
Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 10:01
I wonder, how does that make you feel?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 10:03
Well, it's a lifelong sort of feeling of inadequacy, right? Because I think a lot of people can relate to this if you have migrant parents or if migration is part of your family history in some shape or form. That you might be considered too brown for your white host culture, you know. So in Germany, I'm not white enough. I'm the child of immigrants. But, you know, when I have been on the occasion going to Turkey, for example, I'm absolutely not accepted there either because, you know, I don't speak the language well or at all now. But also I don't relate to their customs and cultures necessarily because I didn't grow up with them. When I look at my dad, you know, I can kind of say, "You're Italian from Italy," and that's very different to Italian from Germany, right? Like, I can understand things obviously, and I know in theory what it's supposed to be like, but I don't know what it's like to grow up there. I don't have that experience at all. And so there is this feeling of inadequacy because nobody really makes you feel like you belong. There's always sort of like, "Yeah, this much we accept you, and then the rest you're kind of not like us. So it's not a great feeling. And I think obviously you can see I'm dedicating my work to this because it's not something that is unique to me or something that happens in faraway lands. It's actually really common. It's just, we don't talk about it.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 11:24
And it has had such an impact on you that the feedback that you've received from being a child and even that pursued you into adulthood of being questioned about your identity made you reject your mother's tongue and culture. And you say it in your book that you even hated parts of yourself. You know, you hated your name, your parents' immigration status. You even talk about the Persian carpet in your house and, you know, the ethnic lunches in your school that, you know, you were ashamed of.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 11:55
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's, again, a very common story, especially when you start school and when you realize for the first time that you are different. Because, you know, as far as I knew before I went to kindergarten, I thought we were just a German family. I had no idea that we're weird or that we're different or migrants. I had no concept of that because I'm too young. And also everyone in my family is like us and everyone sort of in my neighborhood was like us. And then you go to school and all of a sudden you're sort of introduced to the dominant culture in such a systemic way, but also you're being exotified. Teachers, sometimes well-meaning, I mean, if you think about things like Harmony Day in Australia, you know, it's a well-meaning thing. But it's just so ill-informed because it just points out children that are different. And even if we do this in the name of like celebrating diversity, no one wants to be different. You want to belong to a group. We are social animals. We want to be part of a group, right? You don't want to be this odd one out. So yes, I tried not to bring my friends to my house because, you know, my house is decorated in ways that I know their houses are not. The food we eat is not what they eat. I know my mom's just gonna put on some ethnic music or something to like, "Ugh, that's not what their parents listen to." My name obviously gives me away as different. It's not a common name anywhere, really. And then you kind of start realizing, okay, there's— especially if your culture, your heritage culture is considered below the dominant culture, then you start really distancing yourself from that because obviously you realize, "Oh, being Turkish," for example, "is a particularly terrible curse." You know, people are speaking poorly of Turks and I'm being made fun of, or I'm being, you know, so you're just trying not to associate with that. And I had very similar sort of stories in my book of the people that I interviewed. And there's a particularly powerful bit that I would love to share because it shows you then how that translates to language, if I may.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 13:57
Yes, sure.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 13:59
So this is a section where I speak to Kai. Kai is one of my participants. His mom is from Greece and his dad is from Sweden, and he was born and raised in Australia. So I write, "I was particularly taken aback by the notion of erasing oneself because that is perhaps one of the best ways to put it. Today, and to my own surprise sometimes, I can barely say anything in Turkish." I say to my own surprise because for the longest time I believed that I could still do it if I wanted to, because I remember being able to with ease. These days though, it almost seems to require superhuman strength and the biggest cognitive effort to remember a simple word like spoon. I can barely form a sentence and only give one-syllable answers. My pronunciation is awful, immediately foreign. This struck me particularly because in home videos, Turkish was one of my first languages when I began speaking. Upon realizing what I had lost, it truly felt that I erased that part of myself. Perhaps because of this, I teared up a little during my interview with Kai when I heard him say this. So Kai says, in primary school, for school assembly, they're talking about different cultures and stuff, and they're like, Kai, how do you say hello in Greek? You know, singling me out, and then everyone would turn and look at me. And I remember saying, "I don't know." And then I asked him, "But you knew?" And he says, "Yes, I knew." We both paused for quite a while here reflecting. Then I asked him, "Why do you think you said, 'I don't know?'" And he replied, "Because I didn't want to be different, I guess. They didn't know, so if I don't know, then I'm like them." And if you do this sort of thing habitually, right, you pretend that you don't know something, you pretend that you cannot speak it, eventually it will become the truth because language is a practice. You need to speak, otherwise you'll forget how to do it. And so that has been sort of a theme throughout the book, right? It's this habitual self-censoring to try and fit in with everyone else. And, you know, in Australia, the dominant idea is that we are monolingual English speakers. So he's essentially saying, "They don't know how to say hello in Greek. If I don't know it either, I'm more like them." Right? And so that's kind of like how this then occurs over time.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 16:36
So in his case, it was because he wanted to blend in. He didn't want to be seen as different. He didn't want to be othered. Were there other influences that made people either reject or embrace their heritage, culture, or language?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 16:54
I think across the board, the rejection was about very similar examples. So either with the host community or also their heritage community. So if there was like a lot of friction with them, because if you think about language at its very basic function is to communicate and why do we communicate? It's to connect. And so if you want to connect with a group, you will want to speak their language. But if that language positions you to a group that is not valued in your society, or just people you don't want to connect with because that's the other group, or that is the group that is, you know, considered low class or whatever it is, then you are less likely to want to speak that language. And so that was typically across the board what I found, that that is the reason why. So sort of, I want to distance myself for whatever reason. It can be something like, like this, but there was shame, there was anger, there was feeling inadequate, all of these negative emotions. If you associate that with that group, then you no longer want to connect with that group. And likewise, if you do want to connect with a group, and typically when you grow up in a country You obviously want to connect with everyone there, right, with the dominant culture there, so you're more likely to want to speak that language. Now there are examples in my book and across the globe where people rediscover their language that has been lost, but interestingly again, it has something to do with reconnecting with a person or a group of people. So in Kai's example that I just shared, he's the most intense this, let's say, rejector of his Greek heritage. So he was very vocal about hating it, about hating the community, about feeling uncomfortable every time he's with them. But then his grandmother, who he grew up with, developed dementia, and she could no longer speak English as a symptom of that. And so immediately he was like, well, I have to start with Greek again because I want to speak to Grandma. Like, you know, I love my grandma, I don't want to not speak to her, so I have to speak Greek. And so that's how he sort of started reconnecting with Greek. And there are many such examples where, you know, a friend, a parent, a relative, you want to connect with them and they connect you back to your culture. They sort of undo some of this stuff that has occurred to you that made you want to not connect.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 19:20
So it's so much more about relationships and emotions than you would have thought. You know, I would have thought that there would have been more of an analytical decision. Okay, this language is an asset, or it is an asset to be bilingual or multilingual, but what you are saying is that no, it really depends on whether or not we want to connect and what is the relationship we have with our parents, family, communities.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 19:50
Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, if you think about the age when this typically starts becoming a negotiation, you're far too young to make any rational decision on this. When you are starting school, how old are you? 5, 6, 7, something like that. Obviously you're not being strategic about it, but you understand, oh, okay, if I speak this or if I say I'm this, this gets this reaction. This reaction makes me feel good, or this reaction makes me feel bad. And so you are strategic in that way. You want to feel good and you want to feel like you belong, and so you will do whatever it takes to make that happen. And then as you keep doing that As you get older, as an adult, then you will see the result of this practice that you have had. But then it is as an adult that you can look back and, and sort of figure out why you did that. I don't think you do realize in the moment. You're just trying to survive and manage your schooling, your growing up, your relationships, your friendships.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 20:48
What is the impact of how visible your ethnicity is? Because you have a very interesting example in your thesis, which is Claire, and I think she's half Japanese and Ugandan, if I am correct. And so she was in Japan not considered to look like what a Japanese should look like. And I thought that this was a very interesting example.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 21:11
Yeah. And I think that was probably the most surprising thing for me as the researcher, um, because obviously, you know, I started this research journey based on my own experience, but in my family, we are not of mixed race. We all look the same essentially. And so the example that you're mentioning, Claire, so like you said, her mother is Japanese and her father is Ugandan, and she has lamented the entire time that all people ever see when they look at me is that I'm Black, but I'm actually Japanese as well, right? And so what I found really interesting was that that obviously became quite an issue because her mother was not recognized as her mother in public spaces. So when they wanted to go to the cinema or, you know, went to the doctor, whatever, they didn't believe that that is this child's mother, and she had to continuously prove that she was her mother. And so what actually was quite interesting is how they used language to sort of, "No, look, I'm speaking Japanese and my child is understanding, and my child is speaking Japanese. She's mine." And we have another example like that in my book with Teresa. So her mother's Filipino and her father's Hungarian, and so she says, "People just look at me and think I'm white." So my mother had always encouraged me to speak Tagalog so people don't just think she's my caretaker, but she's actually my mother. So it was very interesting for language to, you know, obviously we know language is sort of a way to express identity, but I was very interested to see how it was used to bridge sort of this racial divide. But it was also really interesting in my book with Claire She was really into beauty pageants and she speaks about the one time where Miss Japan was a Black woman and how her mother was quite unhappy with that. And all of a sudden she realized her own mother, you know, thinks of her Japanese-ness as conditional and, you know, she was like, "Mum, how can you say that? I'm Japanese and I'm Black." 'Don't you think I'm Japanese?' And she's like, 'Yes, you are Japanese, but you know, a symbol of Japan should look like, you know, a Japanese person traditionally should look.' And so you can kind of also see this intergenerational conflict, which I don't think is anybody's fault, but it's just, you know, you can kind of see it's not just all people at school. It can be your own parents doing that.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 23:31
Yeah. It must be really difficult to not look like what people expect of you, particularly in Japan where the population is so homogeneous. And you would probably be constantly questioned about where you're from. So I understand that language would be used as a way to reassert your Japanese identity. But even then, I'm sure that even if she doesn't have a Japanese accent, people would still ask her where she's from based on how she looks. Yeah.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 24:00
And she does say when she goes to Japan, you know, when she goes into a shop or a restaurant, she does it all in Japanese and they respond to her in English. And it frustrates her. It's like, I'm just speaking to you literally in my mother tongue. Wow. And you, just based on what I look like, speak back to me in English. And so I think I was surprised in my own research just how racialized we still are everywhere around the world. Like, we still really racialize culture and people and nations and languages.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 24:30
And do you think that this was the common thread of your research findings? Because they all have quite personal reasons for either rejecting or embracing their heritage, but I wonder whether there is something that they all had in common.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 24:47
That is kind of a limitation of my studies, that they were all visible minorities where they grew up, because, you know, the study would look probably quite different if you had people who looked like the dominant culture or whose visible presence was more unproblematic. So that is one thing obviously they had in common, this visible aspect. I think they all had in common that school was the first time they had become aware of their difference. And I do think across the board, it was what I've kind of said, this relationships were the most important thing. So who do you wanna be friends with? Who do you wanna connect with? Who makes you feel good? Those are the people you want to identify with, belong to. And so that will determine then how your language learning or use is directed.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 25:36
And so I think the main goal of your research has been to try to normalize mixedness. And I wonder, what do you think we should say to the audience that is listening to us today to make them perhaps understand or normalize mixedness more?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 25:55
You know, we talked about this, Emma, when we first spoke about, you know, when I go into a professional setting, let's say a networking event at my university, like I said, people immediately, that the icebreaker question for me is not, oh, so, you know, 'What's your research about?' or 'Where do you work?' or 'How long have you been in this university?' It's always, 'Where are you from?' And so this is problematic for a number of reasons. People think it's a nice icebreaker, but it's not, right? You're asking me an incredibly personal question, but also it doesn't give me an opportunity to talk about my work. And so that's really problematic if I'm trying to, you know, you go to a networking event because you want a work opportunity, right? So when you then are reduced to your race almost, or to your cultural identity, you miss out on opportunities. And so what I would love for people who are constantly getting the "where are you from?" I almost want to say just resist the urge. Like, I know we're all curious, but sit in the discomfort that yes, you are looking at me, and yes, my name is not Sarah and I'm not white. Sit with the discomfort in that you don't get to know what my background is, but we are both here for a professional opportunity. And if it comes up organically, that's fine, but it should not be your opener because you just need to realize that behind that question is a lot of trauma, actually, for a lot of people. You're triggering something that— you're not the first person to ask this. People go through it all the time, and you're just like, ugh, I know you mean well, but this is so annoying and it's so invasive as a question. And It's almost that the way I look gives you permission to ask a very personal question and personal questions about my family. We just met. It's very weird. You wouldn't normally do this with any other thing, right? And also making me justify why I'm here. Why can you not accept that I'm in this room with you regardless of how we both got here? We're here to talk about work, right? So that's one thing I probably want people to realize, like try to sit with that discomfort of not knowing where someone is from. I do the same. I mean, I see someone from a different, you know, that is unfamiliar to me. I want to know where they're from. I absolutely want to know, like I'm not above that, but I just need to wait until this is actually something they want to share with me. And if they never want to share it with me, that's okay. And I just have to live with that. And I think if you're someone who reads my work and actually identifies with it, like, oh, that is so my life. I think the main thing I want them to take away is firstly, there's nothing wrong with you and it's not your fault. Do you know what I mean? Because we also get shamed for not speaking the language or for not identifying with that. You get called all sorts of things like, "Oh, you're so whitewashed," or, you know, like, "You are a disgrace to your family because you cannot speak this," or, "You don't know how our culture works." Just know that it's not your fault. It's the system. You were trying to survive, you know. You cannot be like your parents and survive in this third space. You need to assimilate in some shape or form to some extent, right? Your experience will never be the same as your migrant parents' experiences. So firstly, to know it's okay, you're okay, there's nothing wrong with you. But then also realizing probably the reason why you have become like that is all these other things around you that you need to pay attention to as well. Like, set some boundaries. When someone asks you where you're from, try to teach them, let's talk about something else. You don't need to go into your whole history. You know, I've started doing that now. So when someone asks me, where are you from? I say, Germany. He's like, oh, you don't look German. Thank you, let's move on, you know. Oh, so that's an interesting name, is that German? No, let's move on. Like, you know, I'm setting that boundary. Or if you feel passive-aggressive, you can go, oh well, Michael, what kind of name is that? Let's talk about that. Where is your mother from? You know, so you could, you know, depending on how far you want to take this, but also just, it's okay to push back. Just because you look different, it doesn't mean everybody Nobody gets to invade your space and your privacy and your family and gets to know every little detail about your identity in that cultural sense.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 30:09
And also they have to realize that the question they are asking, if they are white, they are not being asked this. So there is a lack of reciprocity here. You know, they are questioning you and they are never themselves questioned because they look like what the dominant culture is supposed to look like. And for them it's ignorance. They don't have the personal experience of being questioned. Repetitively every day. You say it in your thesis that on average you get asked the question once per day, which is a lot. And you even say that in a single day you can be asked the question up to 9 times, you know, in different spaces. It's crazy. And this is what people don't really realize is it sounds naive and curious, but it is something that you hear all the time. And yeah, I don't think people realize that.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 31:01
Yes, it's— I think I do mention this in the book because that 9 times, I didn't even make this up. I say this in my book: my personal record was at a conference in New Zealand at which I was asked 9 times in a single day at my hotel reception, in the taxi, at the registration desk, twice at morning tea, twice during afternoon tea, in the elevator, and finally in the taxi back to my hotel. And it's interesting because for the longest time I didn't want to go to conferences anymore because that's like, I'm always going to have to speak to people there. And I notice that even when I go now, I will stick to the people I know, which is not the purpose of going to a conference, right? You're there to network, you're there to find collaborations, you're there to share your work. And so, you know, I've been so scarred by this that I'm like, oh, just don't speak to anyone new because we're going to have to have this conversation again. And that's, you know, happens with my students as well. They will not go to activities or join student clubs or whatever it is because you just want to not have that confrontation. It's exhausting emotional labor that you have to continuously do. And although I'm quite self-aware now, as you know, I've done this work, I still know I need to pick when I'm going to put myself out there, when I'm going to enter the arena and have battle? Is it worth it? Or can I skip this one? And it shouldn't be like that. Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 32:24
And there is an emotional load. There is a personal cost behind having to explain to people or knowing what kind of answer is supposed to educate them on the issue and the fact that the burden of education falls onto your shoulders.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 32:41
Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, right? Like it's easy for me to say, oh, just correct people or just point out to people that this is the wrong thing to ask. But why is the burden, why is the onus always on the person that is receiving this treatment, right? It should be, and I'm hoping that with my work and with other projects that I have done coming out of this, you know, giving some practical advice on how we can actually function together because more and more we're going to get mixed, right? I mean, we're not going backwards. People have always had legs, so they've always walked across borders, but migration now is like an unprecedented level. We're a very globalized world. Um, you know, half of the population in Australia has a migrant parent, so it's not a minority issue, right? So we have to figure out how can we speak to each other about culture. It's not a taboo topic, but do in a way that is consensual and it's reciprocal. So if you're asking me something, it means I also get to ask you that. But let's ask each other when it seems like an appropriate time, not as an icebreaker. Do you know what I mean?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 33:43
And I think for people who perhaps don't really understand why you need to come into these conversations with some sensitivity, I really recommend them to go watch the mini documentary that you've published, Say Our Names, because I think it makes you really realize the impact it has to have your name, a foreign-sounding name, constantly being mispronounced, or all of the following-up questions that the way people react basically to the name that you have. So yeah, I really recommend them watching it. Is there something about this documentary that you think would be worthy for us to talk about and dissect?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 34:25
You know, I worked with a team on this project, Say Our Names, and my book obviously goes into very deep and long-term and, you know, over a life sort of themes, but it's very overwhelming for people to tackle this now. Okay, so you're giving us all this information. What do we do with this? Is, you know, how do we solve racism? Like, what can we do? It's such a big thing. And the answer is one day at a time and one interaction at a time. And so the simplest act that we could think of that would be sort of an entry point into cultural competence is just get people's names right. Make an effort to learn a name that sounds foreign to you. Understand that your name sounds foreign to someone else. Your name is not the universal normal name. My name sounds normal to someone somewhere, but not where I'm living at the moment. So that doesn't mean that, you know, you're supposed to magically know how a name is pronounced. It also doesn't mean that you need to absolutely get it right. You know, there's some limitations to your pronunciation of it, but it's essentially we're trying to say, okay, don't make the first thing that you do anglicising a name or shortening the name or be okay with butchering the name and saying, "Oh, I'm sure I'm butchering your name." That's not okay. Don't do that. Try to ask, "How do I say your name?" Say it correctly, and by doing so, you are firstly showing that initiative that we kind of just talked about, right? You're taking the burden off that person because it's horrible to have your name mispronounced. It's the first interaction you have and immediately you're like, "Ugh, I'm different. This person thinks I'm weird. They can't say my name when they are saying my name. It sounds ugly. That's not how it's supposed to be called, you know. It actually has a meaning. It's beautiful. It was chosen by my parents, you know. It's the first gift they gave me and you're not even making an effort." So we've developed this documentary firstly to tell the stories of of lived experience of having your name mispronounced, but we also developed resources that we then distributed at our university, but also then more wider. So other universities, government bodies, corporate offices, so that people can actually just start having that conversation. And it was so interesting because people were saying, oh, but you know, like if I say, let's say the name is Ricardo, if I say it like that, I don't know, that makes me feel uncomfortable trying to say it that way because, you know, it's obviously me trying to sound ethnic or something when, you know, and I was like, no, no, again, that is your discomfort.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 37:05
Yeah.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 37:07
And you need to live with that discomfort because Ricardo lives otherwise with discomfort. So, you know, if you can do something so small— he cannot change his name, that's his name— but you can change your reaction to his name, right? You can say, am I saying it correctly? And probably he's fine with however it comes out as long as you've made the effort and it sounds roughly what it's supposed to sound like, instead of going, "Oh, your name is Ricardo. I'm gonna just call you Ricky." You know, that's awful. That's not his name. That's not what his parents picked. That's not how he introduced himself to you. And by doing that, you are immediately again erasing that whole thing. Like, "I am the authority here. I'm gonna give you a new name." So that's kind of what we tried to do with this project, to just like, here's a very easy everyday interaction you can take. It doesn't cost you anything. It, you know, it's just, how do I say your name? Rather than trying to guess and being prepared to be uncomfortable in trying to say it and maybe not getting it right, right away, but sort of taking that on for them, knowing that they have a thousand other things they're battling with that you are not, right? That's essentially recognizing your privilege.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 38:15
There was one person that got interviewed in your documentary that I was really trying to put myself into their shoes. I think his name was Jamie. And with the accent it was "Hymen," and people really made fun of him because it was obviously associated with the body part, and he had no idea. How difficult it must be as well when your name in your native language means something in another language that has completely nothing to do with your name.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 38:43
It's interesting, and obviously I have a biased opinion here, but I so recommend watching that documentary. It's very short, but it just kind of shows you what the stories are like, and then also what you can do, what we can all do to make it easier for people to feel connected and to feel like they belong so they don't constantly feel inadequate in ways that I've just described, right? I always say this: people think I can magically correctly pronounce everybody's name just because I've done this project, and that is not the case. Again, I have no idea how to pronounce some names, you know, in my classrooms and so on, but like, I just make the effort and I wanted to understand how I can do that in a way that is comfortable for everybody.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 39:24
Yeah. And I think that watching the documentary as well will give people more empathy about what it's like to be the other person that gets their name mispronounced. So I really recommend it. There is something else that you've done to try to normalize mixedness. You've done a bit of an experiment in your class where you've asked the students to access non-English media to comment on an event. I think it was the Hong Kong protests at the time. And tell us what you found through it, because I think it's much more than just enriching discussions around the event itself.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 40:02
Yeah. So the purpose of the lesson that I was teaching was to talk about media bias and for students to recognize that media is biased and it has a lot to do with ownership of the media and so on. So that was kind of the point of the lesson. So I had a classroom and obviously I teach in Sydney and it's a very diverse classroom. So I started off by just saying, hey, this is my background. I speak these languages. I understand these languages that I don't speak, but I can understand. Is there anyone else who speaks or understands another language? And so typically lots of students will raise their hand and will say, oh, I speak a bit of this, or yep, I'm fluent in this. So firstly, we normalize that a lot of us speak other languages and that's great. And then I would say, okay, let's look at news reports about this issue. And if you can, try and look it up in a different language from a different country than Australia. So, you know, if you speak Greek, try and see what Greek media says about this. You know, if you speak Mandarin, have a look at that. And so I encourage students to use their language resources, and it was very interesting. So some of them tried and gave up right away, you know, like, oh, this is too hard. Actually, my Greek isn't that good. Some people just started sitting together and like, oh, you speak a bit of this. I can do that too. Let's figure this one out. Some people could watch something but not read. Some people could read but not listen. But you know, everyone had a go. And then we kind of had a discussion on, okay, so how is the same issue reported on by all these different nations and regions? And so obviously it was so much easier to teach the point because you could kind of see not only is there bias in terms of like, you know, media ownership, which would have been the Australian outcome of this. Like if I had said, compare this newspaper with that newspaper, but also international relations and affiliations in a more political sense, you know, who are your allies and therefore how do you speak about this issue? And that is such a rich teaching point, but also it gave the students confidence. Wow. Today I used something other than English in my classroom when before, this would have been something my teacher would have not encouraged, or that would have made me feel different, or what, because, you know, I showed them most of you speak something else. And so it became much more acceptable. And then students would come to me and say, oh, for my essay, could I read a journal article that is in this language? And I said, absolutely, you can do that. If you understand that, go for it, because now you, learning from a scholar from a completely different country angle, because obviously that is the case, right? Not everything is written in English. Not all knowledge is produced in English. And I know that a lot of colleagues would not like that because again, they don't understand what the student has read and that makes them feel uncomfortable, right? So again, sitting with that discomfort that the student can access knowledge that you cannot, and you just have to trust that your student, you know, is integrating this in a way that is correct and meaningful. So it's, again, it's this kind of who's made to feel uncomfortable and can I make my multilingual students feel comfortable somehow?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 43:14
Yeah. And it's about empowering them about something that they would have left at the door. And there is really a thing about, as well, perhaps for the Anglo-Australian students in the class that they would've been aware of of the dominance of their culture perhaps and the work of adaptation of other students from migrant backgrounds that they would not otherwise have understood or seen. That's the point of being a dominant culture is that you don't see yourself. Dominant culture doesn't see itself. So by seeing all of these other points of view, they would understand, oh wow, they also do so much work to focus on the Anglo-Australian point of Yeah, and I think, you know, what is good about this particular classroom practice is because I'm not shaming anybody for anything, including the dominant culture.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 44:06
Like, if you are just an English speaker and you were born and raised in Australia, that's totally fine. Look at news from Australia, look at news from the United States, you know, you can do that. And I wasn't pointing that out, I was just saying who speaks what. And so without getting defensive or feeling uncomfortable, they then were hearing from other people from around the world and gaining also perspectives or knowledge that I wouldn't be able to teach, right? I don't speak Mandarin. I have no idea. But if there's a student who can tell us, hey, in Chinese media, this is discussed this way, and they can give us a bit more context because, you know, they've lived in China, they can tell us more about that. That is something I cannot teach. I have to actually rely on my student to do that. And all the other students are benefiting from that. But again, it's me as a teacher giving up some of my power, right? I am not the all-knowing teacher. I am here to encourage you to learn collaboratively. And I just have to be comfortable with this discomfort that I'm not in full control of what is happening. Do you know what I mean?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 45:08
Yeah. Do you think we don't do enough of that in academic spaces?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 45:12
Yeah, because I mean, obviously there's a lot of pressure on you to be all-knowing. And to get things right. I mean, even saying something like, "I don't know the answer to your question." I don't think most people have the confidence to say that. They will just come up with something. But, you know, we have to kind of sit with it and say, "You know what? Let's find out together. I don't know. I don't want to teach you the wrong thing, and let's look at it together." But also then our teaching performance is evaluated by student feedback most of the time. And so you want to make sure that your students give you good feedback, right? And so if you constantly don't know answers You might get worried that the students will think poorly of you, but I think it's how you do that. Like to say, you have something to teach me too, but also another student can teach you something I cannot. And I'm confident enough to lead this discussion. And I'm also comfortable not being the all-knowing person in the room. And I'm comfortable with you asking why and being critical of me, which I think in previous generations, they probably didn't have that opportunity. I mean, I, was schooled in Germany in the early 2000s and '90s, and there was no critical thinking. It was just, this is what the teacher said, so this is the law. You learn things by heart, you know, you do all of those things. And then it's only as we have sort of progressed in education that we're actually encouraging students to think critically, not to talk back, but also to ask, and why is that? You know, who wrote this? What kind of perspective is this coming from? I even say this in my teaching. So when I teach them you know, because I teach mostly sociology and politics, "Here are the principles on social class, here are the principles on gender," but I also say, "Do you see a theme here on what kind of people have come up with these theories?" And they tended to be the same sorts of people. So they tended to be white male upper class, I guess, professors living at a certain time in history and coming from very specific cultures. So I actually say to them, what I am teaching you is Eurocentric and it comes from these perspectives. Don't be afraid to argue with this. And I think most scholars probably wouldn't go there because it's like, well, it's written, it's safe. You know, these famous people have said it. So, you know, this is proper knowledge. Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 47:29
You really are not afraid to deconstruct how an academic should think or behave. And I think this is something that we can see in the way you wrote your thesis, because your your thesis has a very unconventional amount of personality. You know, I told you that the soul of it is really present. And did you ever feel any resistance from the academic world that you would need to package the way you think in a certain way or the way you deliver your class in a certain way? And how do you overcome this? How do you resist the urge to conform?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 48:07
Yeah, it's interesting because I was just speaking about it with a colleague. So we both like, I guess, storytelling, but especially humour. And so when I first wrote my thesis, there were a lot of jokes in it. That's just how I explain things and how I write, and it's actually quite engaging to a normal reader. And so my supervisor at the time was saying, "Look, this is beautiful writing. I'm concerned when examination comes around." You know, academia is a strict convention. And my colleague that I was speaking to had the exact same feedback, and so he actually took out all of his jokes and just made it sound like a thesis should. And I dialed it back, but I kind of left it as it was, and I almost failed. So the feedback was quite harsh from some people, and so some people loved it, some people hated it. So it was very divided, which is quite interesting because, you know, What I had to defend was often just style. So I had to just defend, "I wrote it this way because it's more accessible." Because I think that when we think of diversity and inclusion and all of that, you have to accept that when you have someone like me entering academia, I am different from the old stuffy professor. And diversity and inclusion means you accept that I'm gonna write it this way. It's still intelligent. Just because it's not boring or hard to understand, it doesn't mean it's not intelligent. Do you know what I mean? So I struggled with that, and what is now practical was the thesis obviously became a book, and I didn't have to make many changes because it was already written like a beautiful book. And the book is— people love it because, yes, you can read it like a normal book and you can understand it, and it's engaging and it's interesting, even if I say so myself. But it's nothing like an academic book, right? Like a traditional academic book. And that's okay. And that's what I want.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 50:02
Yeah. There is this obsession in academia with objectivity. And particularly when you talk about life experiences, objectivity doesn't have its place.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 50:12
Yes.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 50:12
I think it's fair to say that you need to be grounded in data, grounded in your research participants' findings, but you are going to come at it with a subjective experience. Even the interpretation is a subjective interpretation. So it's good that you've resisted that.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 50:29
Yes, and I think it's actually very dangerous, this idea that we have the capacity to be objective, because we don't. No one has. We don't have a godlike view of the world. Like, you are human, and therefore your interpretation of whatever it is will be subjective. This is not a hard science. It's like, you know, water boils at 100 degrees Celsius. It's not like that. We're talking about people, and it will inevitably differ from where you are conducting your study, at what time of the world history. What is true for this community is not necessarily true for this other community because the world is subjective. It's not like a universal truth to society, you know, if we do this, this, then this will work. Every time we do this, this will be the outcome. Humans don't work like that. And you know, if you think about things like COVID, right, when we had, you know, how is every nation dealing with it? And it was all very different. There was not like a universal way we did that. And often it was related to the temperament of the people that are local, the kinds of government ideology that was there, you know, the size of the population, where the population was located.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 51:40
Isolated.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 51:40
So, you know, Australia is an island, easy to lock up. No one goes in, but no one goes out. We are quite isolated already. You can't do that in, you know, mainland Asia, mainland Europe. People are, you know, moving. So, you know, you have to be very careful with pretending that there can be some objective study in social science.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 51:58
Yeah, particularly in social science. Suzanne, do you have a final word of wisdom for those of us who navigate this in-betweenness that we've talked about?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 52:10
Again, I think what I want to say is just, it's not your fault and it's okay. And there's nothing wrong with you and don't listen to all the noise, but also be reflective of how are you navigating day-to-day interactions? And is that true to yourself? Are you trying to accommodate others and make them comfortable? And how about trying to make yourself comfortable? And what would that look like?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 52:37
I love that. Yeah. Trading their comfort for your comfort and putting your comfort in priority. And I think that when you are the other or when you are a minority, you probably would have a tendency to think of the dominant culture's comfort as opposed to, yeah, yours.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 52:57
That's right. And so maybe that's the key takeaway if you have an experience like that. Try to understand that you are not less than them and your comfort is not worth less than theirs. You should do what feels right for you.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 53:12
And do you have a book, a movie, or any kind of content that you would like to recommend to everyone?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 53:18
I really loved a Canadian TV show called Kim's Convenience. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it follows sort of the life of a Korean-Canadian family and it touches a lot on the themes that I talk about in my book. It also talks about names. Um, like that's not the main point of the show, but they're doing it in such a wholesome and funny way. It's a really fantastic show and it makes these topics really accessible and really cute and fun. And it's great for anyone to watch and understand. It's also just entertaining. I think it's on Netflix. Oh, wow.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 53:49
Okay. Yes. I'm definitely going to have a look at it. I'm obsessed about shows.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 53:53
So yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 53:54
If it can be smart at the same time and I can learn something from it, I'm all for it. And do you have a guest that you can think of that you would love to hear on this podcast?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 54:04
That's a hard one.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 54:06
I know.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 54:07
Because I'm like, would I love for a colleague to speak or someone that, you know, I admire or someone famous? But I was thinking in my book, I actually quote a Kenyan historian. Her name is Dr. Rukia Odero. And I actually would love to— I don't even know if she's still alive, but I would love to hear from her because she said something, and that's actually the end of my book. So if you don't mind, I can share why I think she's so great. I'm not a parent and this is not a parenting book, but I kind of say in my book, this is what I would like all parents to hear on the topic of multilingual parenting. And these words were spoken, like I said, by Kenyan historian and Luo woman, Dr. Rukia Odero, who said about her daughter, so she says, you know, her first language is not Luo, not even Swahili, it is English. When I listen to her talk with her friends, it sounds like gibberish to me. They take bits of everything: English, Swahili, German, Luo. Sometimes I get fed up with this. Learn to speak one language properly, I tell them. But I'm beginning to resign myself. There's nothing really to do. They live in a mixed-up world. In the end, I'm less interested in a daughter who's authentically African than one who is authentically herself.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 55:27
Hmm.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 55:29
So this woman, I would love to hear on the podcast.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 55:32
I love this question about authenticity, and I keep this in my mind because it is also something that I want to touch on. I have two last questions for The first one is, when I say the word migrant, what are the words or thoughts that come to mind instinctively?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 55:51
I only have one word, I think, and it's brave, because I think it's brave to migrate. As you all know, it is not easy. You leave behind a lot, and it's hard to be somewhere new, and you have, you know, other than like basic things like, how do I open a bank account? Um, it's also all this, this cultural stuff, this language, you know, I think you have to be brave. So I almost want to say if someone has a foreign accent, just know that it's a very brave person because they have gone through something that was very, very difficult. Regardless of the reason, leaving everything behind and starting somewhere new that is completely different, I think it's very brave.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 56:37
I think too, and there is always strength behind the accent that you hear. So rather than, you know, making fun of it or telling you, "Oh no, that's not the correct way to pronounce this or that," I think we need to acknowledge the strength that it takes. The second question I have is, as someone who I know has never really fully identified with the idea of a single nation or a single culture, what is home to you? You know, is it a space? Is it a feeling or something else entirely?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 57:12
Yeah. I mean, you know, me and my lifelong identity crisis. Uh, yeah, it's, I find it very difficult to identify with a nation or a space. Obviously I do feel homey where I grew up because it's familiar, but I think What makes something feel home to me is more people who make me feel safe and who make me feel like I belong just the way I am. And so, you know, it is kind of funny when you look at my friendship circle, really a lot of people are mixed there as well because obviously we look for people who are like us, right? And they just get it. I don't need to explain it. Like, we have the one thing we have in common is that it's difficult and it's complicated. So we can sort of connect over that. I think that is where, yeah, where I feel most comfortable. And, you know, if I am in the care of my friends and we can just talk about anything, but also they get it, you know, if someone asks me something, their eyes shoot to me like, I see you, I see this is difficult right now, you got this, I'm here for you, you know, like that feels home. And, you know, when you're in a circle of safety and community.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 58:23
Yeah, yeah, I like to think about it as the ability to be your most authentic self in all its multiplicity without fear. And you know, this is really dependent on who you are surrounded with. I wonder, you know, whether there is a before and after for you in terms of expressing your full authentic self, because I imagine that what sparked the process of writing your book and doing the thesis was to feel that your full self, all those multiple parts, could not be expressed and understood, and, you know, most of the time were rejected. And so you had to overemphasize one aspect of your identity at the expense of others. And whether the process of putting your story into a book and developing a coherent narrative about all those multiple arts made you feel more liberated about your authentic self?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 59:22
I mean, definitely I have more language to speak about it. Like, I have words I can use to express, and I've met other people like me who have taught me their words to speak about it. So it's also like, as you get older, I think with everything you get a bit more confident. I mean, like, you care a little less about others, and you realize, you know, I think we have that as women. I think we have that as just professionals, you know, you gain a bit more confidence and you worry a bit less about what other people think. And so if I have to think of the before and after, I think before I did any of this, I was more like, there's something wrong with my upbringing, or I'm like this marginalized person. I'm, you know, I had more like this sort of mentality. And now it's more like, no, I actually bring a lot of of good things to people. Some of the things that make me me and make me interesting and critical and a good scholar and all of that is precisely because of this journey, because, you know, I don't have this attachment, but also I have all these other experiences that people might not have. So I think now I'm just recognizing the strength in it and I'm more confident in it. And I also realize what I sort of said a couple of times now, if there's nothing actually wrong with me. It's systems that are wrong and that have made me feel this way. And I think I'm much more confident now in just saying, "Yep, they're wrong. I'm actually fine and I'm within my right to not answer that question or to talk about this issue." And I think I need to speak about this issue even if it makes people uncomfortable because again, a lot of people are like me. This is not some unique story. But I think, you know, I got a platform to speak about it. You know, people are listening to me. I got to write a book. I, you know, I'm very privileged in that I somehow got a voice. And so this is the voice I'm going to have. I'm going to just say it. And even if it means some people get uncomfortable.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:01:19
What's next for you? Are you working on anything exciting? Or now that you have put your story into a book, that you've put all of this work into the world, do you have Yeah, is there something that you still want to work on and raise awareness on?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 1:01:34
I mean, from this book has come the Say Our Names work that you already mentioned, and I think this is going to probably be where I'm heading with my work. So really doing impactful work, because otherwise this is just stories and the sad truth. How can we actually make it better? What are some strategies we can all take that make everybody feel a feel more or less comfortable, but that actually move us to a better being together, better togetherness, right? So in the immediate future, I'm doing a fellowship at the University of Liverpool in the UK. So I'm traveling at the end of the month, and I'm going to be over there for some months. Um, so I'll be teaching from the book, I'll be teaching from the documentary, I'll be giving seminars around the UK and also to France. I'm going to France, I guess, to Paris. To, um, talk about names because obviously France also has a colonial history. So I'm taking— I'm essentially taking this on tour globally, but you know, it's very important. These are obviously important topics also within the context of Europe. Obviously lots and lots of mixing, lots and lots, you know, I am European, so that's probably the first big next step. And otherwise, yeah, looking for How else can we do this? How else can we create sort of these, you know, almost like the opposite of microaggression, sort of like acts of microinclusion, like getting someone's name right? You know, what are some other things we can do based on the knowledge that we now have that would reverse some of this stuff? And, you know, some of this might be related to early education, so we train teachers to be less like, you know, pointing out poor Kai in front of the school assembly or dressing children up for Harmony Day in stereotypical clothing or whatever it may be, or, you know, taking foreign-sounding name student and putting them into ESL classes without even checking if they speak English. So, you know, those sorts of things, I think, you know, what is practical that we can do in all aspects to just undo some of this.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:03:41
Oh, this is brilliant. I want to invite everyone to really stay in touch with the work that you do. So for people who want to follow and keep up to date with everything that you're doing, where should they find you, contact you, follow you?
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 1:03:57
Yeah. So I'm most active on LinkedIn. Not many people have my name, so you can easily find me. And I am always excited to hear from people. Collaborations. I mean, you and I found each other on LinkedIn and that has been like an incredible experience. So, you know, I found collaborators on LinkedIn. So reach out. I would love to hear from people and their stories and their ideas on what we could do.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:04:21
Well, thank you so much, Zozana. I really invite everyone to look at the documentary, read your book. I know that a lot of people may be intimidated because of its academic origin, but trust me. It's a lot funnier than you would think. There is a lot more soul than you would think. It doesn't read like an academic work. And yeah, this is one of your many talents, is this ability to make things accessible, relatable, moving, impactful, full of emotions and life. And I really admire your work. So yeah, everyone check it out.
Zozan Balci (Guest) · 1:04:59
Thank you so much. You're so sweet. Thank you so much for having me. This was lovely.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:05:03
Yes, thank you to you. Thank you for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with the brilliant Zozane. If our discussion gave you a language for something you've experienced, share this episode with a friend, follow the show, leave us a rating or some nice words in a review. Review. That's how the show gets bigger and how these stories find the people who need to hear them the most. In 2 weeks, I'll be talking to Richa Joshi, a coach who helps quiet voices get loud, especially women of color muted by systems, labels, and cultural expectations. She'll dive into the messy work of unmuting and honest thoughts on migration and the stereotypes that still cling to migrants. So stay tuned! I was your host Emma Bellamy, and I cannot wait to bring you on another journey from there to here.
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