Shay Hare · 64 min
Shay Hare spent fifteen years masking childhood trauma through gambling, and now channels that same obsessive energy into helping others find freedom from shame and addiction.
Hear this story
Shay Hare spent fifteen years masking childhood trauma through gambling. From age 13, when he won over $100 at a poker game, the rush felt like a drug. It was a solution to unbearable pain, low self-worth, and the unsafe feeling of being fully himself. By Year 8 he was stealing his mother's credit card to play online poker. For fifteen years he carried an invisible backpack of lies, losing friendships, stealing from people he cared about, never telling a soul.
At 28, after months without gambling, Shay impulsively bet $500 on AFL, won $2,500, then lost it all instantly. In that moment he realised he actually wanted to lose, that gambling had nothing to do with money anymore. It was about creating enough pain to escape everything else. The next day he picked up the phone and asked for help. That single phone call, though it took weeks to get an appointment, became the start of shedding his shame.
Shay learned that the real work was not learning strategies or techniques, but developing the capacity to sit with discomfort without reaching for distraction. Through therapy and psychedelic work, he learned to have compassion for all his parts, even the ones he didn't like. He discovered that acceptance is where peace lives. Today he channels that same obsessive energy into helping others find freedom from shame and addiction. His message is simple: an addiction can't survive in the light. If you're struggling, just talk about it. Because shame thrives in silence and spreads into every corner of life.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses addiction & recovery and suicide & self-harm prevention, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • SMART Recovery Australia (addiction): smartrecoveryaustralia.com.au • ReachOut: au.reachout.com • Lifeline (24/7 crisis support): 13 11 14 · lifeline.org.au
“I suffered in silence for 15 years. And that's why I'm so passionate about gambling addiction specifically in men because I understand — men suffer in silence way more than females do.”
“an addiction can't survive with light and with shame. It will grow and it will fester and it will spread into every other area of your life.”
“the high, John, the high from winning that game was like — I didn't do drugs growing up, but I can only imagine it was just like a drug addict getting a hit of drugs. It was so euphoric.”
The hero, today
Addiction is a solution, not a problem, and for Shay it solved the need to escape unbearable pain, low self-worth, and the unsafe feeling of being fully himself. Self-awareness alone does nothing; Shay suffered in silence for 15 years knowing something was wrong before he finally picked up the phone and asked for help. The shame that wrapped around his addiction kept it alive, and shedding light on that shame by speaking it to another person was what allowed real change to begin. Shay learned that the real work was not in learning strategies or techniques, but in developing the capacity to sit with discomfort without reaching for distraction, and to hold space for others without judgment. An addiction can't survive in the light; Shay's message to anyone struggling is simply to talk about it, because shame thrives in silence and spreads into every corner of life.
Yes. Shay Hare is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Addiction is a solution, not a problem, and for Shay it solved the need to escape unbearable pain, low self-worth, and the unsafe feeling of being fully himself.
Self-awareness alone does nothing; Shay suffered in silence for 15 years knowing something was wrong before he finally picked up the phone and asked for help.
The shame that wrapped around his addiction kept it alive, and shedding light on that shame by speaking it to another person was what allowed real change to begin.
Shay learned that the real work was not in learning strategies or techniques, but in developing the capacity to sit with discomfort without reaching for distraction, and to hold space for others without judgment.
John Milham (Host) · 00:05
Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. In this episode, John Millum is joined by Shay Hare, who from the young age of 13 turned to gambling as a way to cope with deep-rooted insecurities and family turmoil. Raised in a gambling-influenced environment, Shay battled addiction for years, finding both temporary relief and deeper entanglement. His turning point came at 28 when a relapse sparked the realization that he needed help. Through a combination of recovery programs and a newfound spiritual insight, Shay transformed his life, and today he focuses on helping others by promoting open discussions about gambling and mental health, advocating for understanding and healing through sharing personal stories. Enjoy this conversation with Shae Hair.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 01:08
So, ladies and gentlemen and listeners of Kuntugi Heroes, welcome to another podcast, another episode of Kuntugi Heroes Stories That Matter. I'm going to ask you to, to, to welcome our guest today, a young man who has had association with causes and activities that are about service that we've been involved in over the years. And he's bringing a unique story, a story about some stuff that's a real challenge for Australian community in particular. I know it's a worldwide challenge, but where, you know, gambling has been a part of his life and now he works in the community to help others with this Addiction. Welcome, if you will, Shay Hare.
John Milham (Host) · 01:55
Thank you, John. Thanks, John. I appreciate the warm introduction.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 01:59
A warm introduction, um, uh, mate, because, uh, you know, you're a warm guy, right? You, you, you, you, you are personable and, and, and upbeat and positive. But of course, you know, there's a story behind it, right? Lived experience, it brings you there. And so that positive, uh, persona that you present to the world is at the end of a journey with a whole bunch of challenges, right? So if you're okay, we might explore some of that, starting with, um, what was the young Shay? You know, was he interested in gambling as a kid?
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This conversation includes a young shay hiding behind a mask, the house where a pokie machine sat in the back room, winning $100 at 13, feeling euphoric, stealing his mother's credit card to play online, fifteen years of silence and shame and the $500 bet that showed him the trap.
John Milham (Host) · 02:36
Yeah, it's interesting. Um, probably an interesting answer. I'll start with, um, I'll start with just, uh, I just had a reflection that as you're sort of talking about my nature, and I appreciate those words of how I show up in the world. And I like to pride myself on being quite positive and joyful and bubbly. But I was just thinking then, as you're saying that, it's actually really nice to be able to embody that part of my personality, but truthfully embody it and not be a mask. Because for so long it was a mask, and it was just, you know, hiding, hiding everything underneath.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 03:11
So did you learn to to present positively because you knew underneath there were all sorts of things that were unresolved and bubbling around, right?
John Milham (Host) · 03:22
Well, I think we go through stages. I think there were stages where I was completely unconscious of what was under the hood, so to speak. And then, you know, there are also stages of life where I was very aware what was under the hood. So I put on a facade and I think, you know, that facade was built very early on as a kid to hide the truth. And then if I go deeper than that, why was I hiding the truth? Was the truth allowed to be expressed? Probably not. At times, yes, as a kid, the truth was allowed to be expressed. But I think for a large part of my childhood, I hid a lot because I think I didn't feel completely safe showing all parts of me and expressing all parts of me. And as humans, we have— we all have parts. We all have messy parts. We all have dark parts. We all have a shadow. I very, very much hid my shadow for a very long time.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 04:19
Yeah. So a shadow part often, you know, like if we, you know, if we dive into IFS or whatever, you know, family systems, the idea that that was the shadow part comes up as a way of surviving and protecting the core self, right? As a young bloke, what were you made unsafe? What were you trying to protect Shay from?
John Milham (Host) · 04:43
Very early on, I was quite an insecure kid. I was very insecure. I was very insecure about my appearance, and I was very insecure about people's opinions of me. And I was so caught up in self that I was just so self-absorbed in that. And, you know, that then grew into, you know, unhealthy, like an unhealthy relationship with my body and all these other things that come up. And then I think, you know, from a couple of things sort of happening in childhood, Dad left very early on. There was a lot of conflict in the house. There was a lot of emotional instability. I think around the age of like 11 and 12, I was starting to distract myself. So I was playing up. So there was a lot of pain inside me. There's a lot of anger inside me. Things that had happened that had just made me really, really angry. Angry and shy and scared and closed off to the world. And then, and then I discovered gambling. I was 13 years old. My brother invited me to his mate's house. They were all playing poker. They were 18, 19 at the time, and I was 13. And I said, can I come? And he said, well, it's a $5 buy-in. Do you have $5? And I said, I don't. So I asked Mum for $5, and I went and I went and played and they had this rule that if you got knocked out, you could buy back in. So like as a 13-year-old, being with my older brother and all of his mates, it was such a cool thing. And anyway, I got knocked out, I lost, and I was so frustrated. I was just like, "This sucks. I've just lost $5. It wasn't even my money." And then one of the boys said, "You can buy back in, but you got to now pay $10 if you want to have more chips and still have a chance to win." So I was like, "I'm in here." So I shooted back home. I ran home and I asked mom for I asked Mum for $10 and got the $10, went back up to the mate's house, my brother's mate's house, and I won the game of poker. And I'd never played before, and I won. I won like, you know, over $100 as a like 12, 13-year-old. That was like, oh, so good. And the high, John, the high from winning that game was like You know, I didn't do drugs growing up, but I can only imagine it was just like a drug addict getting a hit of drugs. It was so euphoric. It was so just amazing. And really beneath all of that though was just complete distraction and avoidance from all the pain that I was feeling as an angry kid. And that's it. That's that in a nutshell. That is really what started the addiction.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 07:46
It's interesting. Yeah, we talked— when we talked to to people who support, you know, um, AOD, alcohol, other drug stuff, and gambling, right? They talk about these addictions as solutions, not as problems, right? The, you know, and in some ways, right, you're telling— are you telling me that, like, gambling for you was a solution to the insecurity and the lack of safety and the lack of recognition and attention?
John Milham (Host) · 08:14
I think It's not just one thing, but I think— and some days it changes. Some days my interpretation of what it actually was changes because I'm still learning so much about myself and that version of me back then. But if I was to answer truthfully what my truth is right now, I would say incredibly low self-worth. Yeah. And that gambling made me feel significant and it made me feel something. And it made me— so that's in the moment, that's what I felt. So low self-worth, I felt great, I felt amazing. How good's this? How good's winning? Felt all these good highs after feeling all these low lows and being angry and frustrated. As the gambling evolved over time, it became different. So, you know, it was used as a way— it was used in so many different ways. It was used as a way to try to pay off debt. It was used as a way to avoid— it became so many different things. But at that point in time, I would say it was all around low self-worth.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 09:17
So how does a 13-year-old like dive into gambling? How does it become an early teen hobby, right?
John Milham (Host) · 09:26
Yeah.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 09:27
Like, to be truthful, at 13, I wouldn't have known how to gamble, right? Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 09:32
Well, it's interesting because I look back at, you know, a lot of the memories aren't super clear, but there was very much a culture in the family around gambling. So like, you know, my mum's father was massively into horses. Her brother still is to this day, you know, massive. I'm not saying he's got a problem at all, but you know, there was that. My brother was very much into it. My dad, you know, I don't know the full story, but had a big problem with the pokies to the point where, you know, him and mum and dad split eventually. And I don't know how much of a contributing factor that was, but He had his addiction. So it was just there. I remember like in the back of the family home, we had a pokie machine. Like there was a legit pokie machine. You know those ones that you pull down like— Yeah, like— No, but it was real. It was a real pokie machine that just— you didn't have to— you had to put your 10 cents in and then we had the key to get the money back out. So you can only imagine what that's doing for the brain of a 7, 8, 9-year-old. The lights, it's all there and it's—
Shay Hare (Guest) · 10:41
A crazy development program for kids, right?
John Milham (Host) · 10:45
And I remember sharing, I remember the very first time, and we'll get to it eventually, I remember the very first time I fully took ownership with this and tried to get help. And I remember the guy that I was seeing, I was getting a free service through like New South Wales, some New South Wales service. And he's just like, mate, the reality is some people have amazing lives, are stable, don't have any unresolved trauma, don't have self-worth issues, but form massive addictions because gambling is addictive. It's just addictive. It's designed to be addictive. And I think I look back at like pokies as a kid, I'm just like, you know what I mean? Even if life didn't throw me a few spanners, I may have formed an addiction anyway. I don't know.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 11:30
As a kid, well, you just download what's around you. So, you know, so, you know, a sporting father has sporting kids, right? You know, and they often follow in his footsteps in the same sport, which is, you know, what, what, you know, it sounds like you've done, right?
John Milham (Host) · 11:49
For sure. For sure.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 11:50
So, you know, like at what stage you mentioned reaching out for help, which is like a pretty sort of, you know, aware, self-aware thing to do. What stage did you realize, you know, because there's a 13, you wouldn't— I wouldn't imagine you had a lot of discernment around, you know, what was good for you or not, right?
John Milham (Host) · 12:09
I'm trying not to laugh. I was 28, John.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 12:13
So a couple of years later, right?
John Milham (Host) · 12:15
And I think that's why, that's why, that's why my story is so powerful, because I suffered in silence for 15 years. And, um, yeah, that's why I'm so passionate about gambling addiction specifically in men, because I understand, and you know this better than anyone, men suffer in silence way more than females do. And I really do believe that the 2,500 men that die each year, gambling addictions play a part in that number. I'd be spitballing what the number is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was close to 10%. It's a real thing. So, one of my biggest problems is I'm a very self-aware human, sometimes too self-aware. But self-awareness doesn't do anything. It doesn't mean anything or doesn't contribute to anything unless you take action.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 13:02
Right. When you realize you might be aware of an issue, but you're still not changing the circumstance in which that issue presents.
John Milham (Host) · 13:11
Right.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 13:12
And sometimes self-awareness can be a bit of a pain. Yeah, so tell me about the logistics of having a gambling addiction as a young person, um, you know, going through, you know, puberty and then, you know, school matriculation, right? You know, uh, you know, all that period of time where you're, you know, you're developing relationships with the opposite sex, right? And sort of, you know, maybe setting up your work career and so on. How How did all of that occur? That's all usually plenty of challenge anyway, and you're doing it in the context of having this sort of cloud with you all the time. Is it fair to call it a cloud, or was it just a way of working?
John Milham (Host) · 14:03
My mum, my mum once said to me, um, you know, as we talk, talk, talk about this, you'll, you know, you'll start to learn that shame underpinned the whole addiction. And that's what was— that was the block in me able to actually get help and overcome it, the shame, the shame energy. But at the start, there wasn't shame. But my mum used to always say to me that life, you always have a backpack on. So, Shay, you've always got this backpack, but every burden, every lie, everything you hold in, everything you don't share is just another pebble. And if you keep those things going and you keep not sharing and you keep lying and you keep hiding, the backpack will get so heavy. So like, but as soon as you share something or open up or tell the truth, the backpack gets lighter. And it's so true. It's so true. Like, we all have a conscience. And, you know, so my backpack got pretty heavy pretty quick. So, you know, so to speak. The cloud. It was a cloud. It was heavy and it wasn't always heavy because sometimes I was winning. So then it was— there was no backpack.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 15:17
Do you become good at gambling?
John Milham (Host) · 15:20
If I was good at gambling, I'd probably still be gambling. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'd still be, you know, because I was in awe of it. I loved it. I was obsessed. Like, it started with poker, so I wanted to become a professional poker player. That was, that was a legit dream. I was way too emotionally unstable to play poker though. I just, I would, yeah, react too much to the hand before. And, um, but yeah, what does it look like? You know, like a couple of stories. Year 8, um, had a couple of mates, and I think also it was the perfect storm because my other friend started gambling too. So there's a group of us now, like, you know, yeah, 13, 14, and, you know, we're going and we're playing online poker illegally with my mom's credit card. Like, I'm stealing my mom's credit card to play poker. Every day when I get off the bus, I'm sprinting home to beat mom home to find the ANZ statement to throw it out because I know the statement comes monthly. Until one day I get caught. But that didn't stop me. I did it again. I did it again. So, you know, it altered the complete trajectory and quality of my childhood because there was so much lying. There was so much hiding. There was so much shame. I was so consumed. The highs were so high. The lows were so low. It ended relationships. It had negative impacts on relationships. It ended friendships. I have friendships that I still haven't repaired yet. Based off my days of— like, I was a thief. I stole. I stole from people I cared about. And there's still energy of guilt there. I still hold that guilt. I've forgiven myself. I've forgiven myself because I understand what I was going through. And I was doing the best I could with what I knew and all my problems that I didn't know about at the time and why I was drinking to blackout drunk and all these other things that were manifesting. Yeah, had massive consequences. But in saying that, I wouldn't change it, not one bit of it. I just wouldn't, because I'm here now and I have the perspective I have now.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 17:31
I can understand, you know, who you are now obviously, you know, includes that process and the learning from that process. So what were the gifts, you know, like obviously gambling gave you something as well, right, which you're now accepting, right?
John Milham (Host) · 17:47
Well, firstly, it kept me safe, John.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 17:49
Right.
John Milham (Host) · 17:49
You know, it was no different to a, you know, and I used the drug addict reference because I see gambling just like a drug addiction. I don't see it any different apart from, you know, the chemicals that you put into your body. It literally gave me relief, just like, you know, heroin gives someone relief on the street. It just, it gave me relief from the pain and suffering. I had a lot of trauma, unresolved trauma. I went through a lot of abuse as a child that was suppressed and repressed for You know, I'm only— I'm 32 now and I'm only just facing a lot of that trauma now. It's coming up. And I, for so long, I was just like, you know, how can this be? How can you repress something for 2 decades? And then, you know, I start reading and I read literature and I read— it's so normal. People repress memories until they're 60 sometimes.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 18:36
Yeah, 2 decades seems like a pretty short period, you know. Yeah, some people rack up much, much more.
John Milham (Host) · 18:46
I've gone on this, like, I went on this journey over the last couple of years where I was just like, I'm cleaning it out. I don't care what comes up. I'm— and it was this like desperate energy because I understood that that's what was underpinning my whole life, or that I'd repressed to keep myself safe. It's only in the last, you know, probably 6 months where I've had to sit down and be like, Well, hang on. Do I really need to look in every, you know, nook and cranny and try to resolve everything and understand everything? And remember, it's like, let's just— let's just regulate. Let's just get your nervous system regulated. Let's just get yourself grounded. And if things come up, things come up. But there's no point looking around with a torchlight trying to find every trauma. That's— that's just— that's just draining. And that's not how I want to live my life. So I'm in a much better space there. But yeah, back to the question, that's what it did. It kept me safe, just like drugs keep a drug addict safe and just like alcohol keeps an alcoholic safe. I've never met an alcoholic or a drug addict that had a cruisy upbringing.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 19:49
They just didn't.
John Milham (Host) · 19:50
They just didn't. They didn't wake up and go to grade 2 and have a share circle and tell the group, "Oh, I can't wait to be a drug addict." No, they wanted to be a firefighter or they wanted to go to the moon. And then life hit him and it hits us all. I just got dealt a hand that was pretty tough and pretty hard and I found solace and safety in gambling.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 20:15
I was listening to a man with a story who worked closely in an institution that supported Indigenous men with Addictions. And he talked about asking, what are you? And they'd say, what's going on? And they'd say, it's the drugs or the alcohol or the gambling. And he says, no, no, what's really going on? Right. That's not what's going on. That's what happens as a result of that. Right. So you've got to go upriver for sure.
John Milham (Host) · 20:49
Gabor Maté has got that really famous line around addiction and trauma, and it's like, not why the addiction, it's the wrong question, why the pain.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 21:00
Yeah, beautiful.
John Milham (Host) · 21:01
Yeah, it's just such a better way of framing it.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 21:04
Yeah. So what do you do? Like, you got to a point with, uh, you know, so you've been, um, you know, from 13 to 28, 15 years of, of, of being someone that was feeding, uh, gambling as a solution for that trauma and that and stuff. How do you bring it all together? How do you— you get to 28 and you get some help and suddenly you're going, okay, I have to clear this out. How does that happen?
John Milham (Host) · 21:33
Uh, for me, you suffer so much for so long, you don't see any purpose or reason to want to be around anymore, or you have that rock bottom moment, which I had. So I had that, you know, I had suicidal ideology. I never like went and brought the rope and planned the day in the letter or anything like that. But I feel like suicidal ideation, it's all on a spectrum. If you ever thought that you don't want to wake up and live today, you're on that spectrum. And I probably got to a 5 where I was like, "I don't think I could do this anymore." But then it was just, you know, it's that whole like that whole tipping point of just like, I can't keep doing this. Like, there wasn't just this one moment or this one aha moment. Maybe there was, actually. So when I was 28, I hadn't gambled for 3 or 4 months, so I was doing quite well. And I— this still blows my mind that this happened. Something happened. I can't remember what happened. Something happened that threw me emotionally. So like, you know, like something— someone said something or something threw me. And then all I remember is that thing happening and next minute being in my bed watching AFL and I just put $500 on a game. Well, here I was 3, 4 months doing so well and I— it's almost like I didn't even— I was like complete autopilot. Signed into my account, deposited the money, put the bet on so impulsively, and now I'm laying— and I was like, what the f— this— I'm like, this is, this is a problem. This is a, this is a big problem. And then I remember winning. So I won, I think I won $2,500, $3,000, and I was up here, cloud, cloud nine. I was like, oh my God, amazing. And then I bet all of that money pretty much instantly after and lost. And as it was losing, and as I realized it was about to lose, I had this reflection of I wanted to lose. I actually didn't even want to win. And then I realized that gambling actually had nothing to do with making money anymore. At times it did, but it was all about creating so much pain at times that I completely forgot about my life and everything else that life throws us. And it just became this safety nest of anger and frustration. And I was just so self-absorbed in that, that it was a weird way to create safety. But it was consistent. It was reliable. I could flick the switch.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 24:22
Yeah. So the gain you were getting from the loss was exactly like the emotional trauma and drama was really Wow, that's a powerful realization.
John Milham (Host) · 24:33
And then, you know, that took a few months then to reflect back on that moment to be like, oh, I see what I was hiding from. I had other stuff going on in my life that was really heavy and gambling was just this reliable vice to escape. Wow. Yeah.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 24:47
So, you know, what worked for you? Like, so you're coming to a point, it sounds like it was, you know, a series of accumulated stress and you know, reflections and so on. And at some point, you— the pain of changing was less than the pain of staying the same, you know, that, you know.
John Milham (Host) · 25:06
Yeah.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 25:06
What, what, um, what did you do at that point? What worked for you?
John Milham (Host) · 25:10
Well, I think I had that moment, and then, um, I talk about shame a lot with addictions, but I shined the light on shame. I think the next day I picked up the phone and I found this free service, and I called, and it was so daunting. It was so uncomfortable. Like, I'm— it's— I'm just— you can see how I talk about my addiction. I can laugh about it. I'm light about it. I don't care about it. It is what it is. But at the time, it was like crippling to pick up a phone and say, I've got an addiction, I need help. Like, it was— it was so uncomfortable, but I did it. And even though I relapsed after that, you know, I was clean for a bit and then relapsed and whatever, that phone call was the starting point of shedding the shame, or sorry, shedding the light on the shame, which then allowed, you know, just so much movement and progression with that journey. Yeah. So I just picked up the phone and asked for help. And I think, yeah, I even remember my victim mindset, John. I remember calling them and saying, "We've got no one available for 6 weeks." Oh, this is like the one time I finally asked for help.. And then I could have grabbed that and been like, it's not meant to be, I'll keep gambling.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 26:21
Yeah, whatever.
John Milham (Host) · 26:22
But I was just like, no. Like, so, you know, that's— that was another big part of this journey is just realizing how much of a victim I was.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 26:30
Um, do you think you have to get— like, is there, um, you know, some people sort of, you know, jump on an issue or an addiction and they get a, you know, they make changes and it seems to happen quickly, but others you hear of like a lot, a long-term struggle with the process, right? You know, um, do you think you have to build up to solving this issue? You have to like get a certain amount of pain or, you know, get to rock bottom or, um, you know, sort of develop enough social disasters, you know, behind you to to get the credit to go and say, no, I'm going to make some changes?
John Milham (Host) · 27:18
I just think it's, it's so circumstantial based off the person and their wiring and their story and their beliefs and their community and their family around them, the support. Like, I just feel it's, you know, I thrived. I jumped into this 10-week program and I remember the guy who was like a provisional psychologist. I think he was like He's like, "You are doing this with flying colors. Like, you are crushing this program." Because there was so much energy to just, you know, I had 15 years of baggage of just like, "Oh, I'm done. Let's go. Let's ace this." You know, but then I relapsed probably a year after that, maybe a year after that. So yeah, I think I can truthfully answer that question. I just think it's so different for everyone. I've become quite spiritual in the last 12 months. Some people might not like this take, but I actually think that some souls come down to live this life to suffer an entire lifetime. They didn't come to overcome the suffering and change and use it as a catalyst for growth. I think some souls are here to live a really hard life. That's part of their soul's evolution. Um, that wasn't mine though. I came here to suffer and then overcome.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 28:38
Well, in, in, in, in many ways, right, uh, purpose comes from, you know, Maya Angelou talks about— I've often said this, um, you know, find your purpose, look to your wound, right? In some ways, right, you're, you know, you have at, you know, various stages dive in dived into sharing your recovery, your journey, your lessons, if you will, with the world, right? So what's— yeah, why was that something that, you know, you had access to, right?
John Milham (Host) · 29:11
Yeah, well, I think that's why I'm here. I think that's why I'm here, and I think that's why I went through everything I went through. Um, that's not even a think, I know that's why I'm here. Like, I know that's— I know I was— I know I came here to go through a lot of adversity and then shine the light for others. And for my light to, you know, hopefully inspire others to turn on their own light. Because I feel like, you know, I was reading this, I was reading this thing recently around like healers and lightworkers. And, you know, that it only takes something like one lightworker or one person shining their authentic light that one person can like outweigh or outbalance like 5,000 dark, you know, dark souls or people that are dark and suffering and struggling and, and, and that energy. Yeah, storm clouds.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 30:05
Yeah, little people run around in a storm cloud for sure.
John Milham (Host) · 30:08
But if you think about that 1 to 5,000 and it's like, that's, that's, that's a pretty big spin. So I think, um, you know, if I go back to Mentoring Men where we first met, and I think a lot of that was from pain. A lot of that sharing was from— I was in pain and I was angry. And a lot of it was ego. Like, to be honest, a lot of it was ego. There was a lot of ego around doing this thing and being the face of something and driving it and getting significance from it. And, and that's why I threw it away a couple of years ago because I'm just like, "This isn't authentic. This isn't real." I'm not doing this even though it was having a net positive impact, raising money for a good cause. It wasn't my truth at the time. So yeah, I think I'm just here to share. I believe in humanity. If you focus on the dark, you focus on the news, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You'll keep getting it, you'll keep attracting more of it. But I truly believe that the power of the human spirit, the soul, is just untapped and just, you know, it's incredible. And I just want to share that light and love with as many people as I can.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 31:26
Beautiful purpose. If I can just backtrack a little bit into that period, you know, like, so beginning of COVID you know, you get your signing up to Mentoring Men and you've a brilliant concept, 25 to Zero. So the idea of bringing attention and resources to suicide, right, which is, you know, we were looking to reduce suicide, which was a, you know, and you became quite an effective spokesperson and fundraiser, right? Of course, you spoke briefly about your own ideation, right? And, you know, bereavement. I think you had a friend who, you know, suicided and that really drove that organization. How do you, you know, you put up and you create all of this energy and stuff. Does it feel worthwhile? Does it feel like a good process?
John Milham (Host) · 32:28
Well, firstly, I don't see gambling as negative or positive. Good or bad. I see it as a solution, maybe not ideal.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 32:38
No, no.
John Milham (Host) · 32:39
Yeah, it's, it's a solution. I think, yeah, it's actually a really good question. I think I was trying to— I wasn't processing the pain. I was so out of whack with my body. I was so disconnected to my feelings that I really, even though I wanted to try to process the trauma of losing this coworker, I just couldn't. I couldn't. And that desperate energy, because when I came into it, it was, there was so much energy. I was full of energy, full of let's go, let's go, let's raise money, let's like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I think it was coming from pain. So, you know, good, bad, was it positive? Yeah, of course it was positive in ways, but I think in other ways as well, it was a coping mechanism. It was a coping mechanism and it was a bit of a distraction. 'Cause at that point in time, I was working full-time job, was trying to drive that. I think I just started trying to do some study. I had all these other stuff going on in my life, personal stuff. Like it was— and that, if you really look at the theme of my life, that was the theme of my life, distracting myself. Yeah.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 34:13
When every minute's filled with the stuff you don't need to be with yourself, right?
John Milham (Host) · 34:19
But like, and this is like, I get emotional thinking about this because it's like, if at one point in your life it was so unsafe to actually feel and be with yourself, of course you're going to do whatever it takes to distract yourself.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 34:34
Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 34:35
And that's why I have so much empathy for workaholics and overworkers and addicts and all of this, because I just, I get it. I get why they're doing it. And I don't judge anyone, anyone, regardless of how dysfunctional their behavior is, because I understand it's serving a purpose. Doesn't mean it's ideal, and it doesn't mean that I don't want them to find change in their life, but I can just understand it now.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 35:00
Beautiful. I love that. So, you know, the purpose to share and care and make a difference, right? So, you know, from your from the energy of your awareness or your recovery, if you will, right? You channeled that into coaching and sort of, you know, and programs. How did that, you know, how did that come about? How did you decide you wanted to become a worker in that space?
John Milham (Host) · 35:34
Yeah, 2018. 2019, I'm at a friend's house and he's like, I've got this documentary, I reckon you'll like it. Pretty close to rock bottom at that point, just separated from a long-term partner, you know, debts through the roof, gambling's out of control, doing all of these naughty things. And he sits me down and he watches— he shows me this documentary called Tony Robbins: I'm Not Your Guru.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 36:02
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
John Milham (Host) · 36:03
Yeah, I remember it well. And I watch it and I was like, wow, wow. And something just lit up inside me. And you know, that was what, 7, 8 years, 7, 8 years ago, 7 years ago now. And then that was it. That was in that moment. I realized that's what I want to do for the rest of my life. Didn't know what it was going to look like or how it's going to take shape, but I realized I wanted to help others in their own suffering for the rest of my life.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 36:27
In that moment, right, you know, you will choose a pathway. Is it like, is it, does it sort of echo that moment of winning?
John Milham (Host) · 36:41
Well, oh, that's an interesting one because I think at the time I still had so much going on in my life that I couldn't actually sit there, ground, and, and be embodied with the idea of this is what I want to do with my life. It was just a thought. And it was also like, it was also like he saved my life. Like I have no doubt that watching him do his thing and doing it from heart and not ego was like, like I have no doubt. And there's 3 or 4 figures actually around that time that I used to follow that like I'd love to sit down with them one day and be like, all 5 of you saved my life because I consumed your content like there's no tomorrow. Like, it—
Shay Hare (Guest) · 37:28
it—
John Milham (Host) · 37:28
I was in this bubble from then until probably 2023, 2022, of just like— that became an addiction.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 37:36
Self-help.
John Milham (Host) · 37:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 37:38
In some ways, you know, we, we look at 12 steps and it's transferring your, your energy from, from something that, you know, was causing, causing problems to, you know, being, you know, more you know, more positive, but it's that same energy, you know.
John Milham (Host) · 37:53
Uh-huh, uh-huh. For sure. Yeah, for sure. Um, so no, it didn't— in that moment, it didn't give me this big thing, this big rush, this big excitement. It actually just gave me hope. It was more hope. Gave me hope. Yeah, yeah.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 38:08
What, um, what you— as a coach, right? So obviously you train, you know, like you launched into it and you immersed into the bubble, what did you take out of it that resonated with your lived experience as a gambler? What did you realize there was, you know, that was going to help people a lot, you know, in your situation?
John Milham (Host) · 38:36
If I'm being honest, nothing. There isn't a single strategy that I've actually, I think, ever used on a client. It's more just been my embodiment of me. And if I'm not judging myself, I know that I can't judge them, even if there's no progress or even if they go backwards. If I have full space for just complete acceptance and understanding of me, I'm going to be able to hold that space for them. I think, you know, like there are probably unconscious things I do with clients that I don't realize I'm doing that I've learned through, you know, as I mentioned, I think off air, like trained through Tony and Tony's techniques and strategies. Probably things I do unconsciously. But really, like, it just comes down to truly deeply caring about their world. And not trying to be like, "I think you should do this." Because they know they've got the answers. Everyone's got the answers. And you know, this is why, you know, Mentoring Men was such a hoot and such a success because it's just like people just want to be heard. They know that their addiction is not helping their life. You know, it's not going to allow them to achieve these things. They just want to be heard and understood.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 40:03
I love that. Having, say, someone who's struggled with his weight over the years and being able to string a word or two and read a word or two. I always find it interesting that skinny people who have never been fat a day in their life always have lots of advice for fat people. Right. You just have to eat this. You just have to change that. And of course, you know, it must be frustrating that the world, you know, is reaching out, you know, is telling again somebody who's struggling with gambling, right, which, you know, entwines itself into the psyche and solves a whole range of primary and secondary issues, right, for someone who's never struggled with something to just go, oh, stop gambling.
John Milham (Host) · 40:58
That was a big part of my journey. Like, my family didn't get it.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 41:03
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 41:04
Like, I don't want to generalize my whole family. There was better advice than others. But, you know, my mom's capacity was she couldn't deal with it. She couldn't understand it. And I understand that she went through her own trauma with my father and what he went through. So, I get it. She was just watching this happen again. But there wasn't a lot of understanding or I guess desire to truly want to understand what was going on with Shae. Like what was Shae really struggling and suffering with? But I also think to a certain extent, I didn't know what I was struggling and suffering with either. And I was a closed book and I hid everything from them. So they used to tippy-toe on eggshells around me because, you know, I kind of forced their hand to do that. So I don't have any resentment or judgment or anything like that towards my family. They were doing the best they could with what they knew.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 41:53
I found it fascinating you were saying the modalities, the tools, right? We often look for those kind of practical sort of mechanistic solutions, right? The red pill or the blue pill makes our brain happy. Yeah, exactly right. And particularly men looking for those kind of practical solutions, right? Just apply 2 twists and then, and a squirt of WD-40. But I found it fascinating. You were essentially saying it's sitting with somebody and just accepting them and listening and caring, right, is the power place, right? That's so challenging to do. How do you build up a desire to offer, to be vulnerable in that space when you're coming from a place where you've spent your entire life trying to protect and hide.
John Milham (Host) · 42:53
I'll tell you a quick story. I did, I read a book, started reading a book called Learned Optimism maybe 3 years ago now. And a third of the way through the book, there's a series of like 8 tests. And you would consider me an optimistic person back then when we first met? Yeah, so would I. Truthfully, I truthfully would have said I'm an optimistic human, always glass half full. And I did this test, and it doesn't just look at optimism as are you optimistic, are you not optimistic. It's like, are you optimistic in this perspective, in that lens, in that environment, in that? And it breaks it all down. And of the 8, I was only optimistic in one of them. And of the other 7, I was not just like neutral, I was like a pessimist.. And I think I've adopted that from my— I know I've adopted that from my mother. She's like that with a lot of things in her life. And so that then sent me on a journey of realizing, oh wow, I really don't actually like myself. I say I do. There are parts of myself that I like, but there are a lot of parts of myself that I don't like. There are a lot of parts of myself that I'm ashamed about. So what did I do to be able to get to the space to be able to then hold space for that, you know, that person next to me? It's like, and it's still a work in progress. I've just sat in the dark. I just sat in the dark and looked in the mirror and just, you know, I did that through therapy and I did that through, you know, other modalities. But the real gold or the growth, so to speak, was me at home going through some emotional turmoil and not gambling, or not watching pornography, or not picking up my phone, or not having a drink of alcohol, and just sitting in it. And once I did that, I just learned so much about myself. Um, but, uh, yeah, I would say psychedelic therapy with my therapist also was one of the biggest catalysts for change. Because for someone that had so much shame, I was full of shame energy. So I was just, I had so much shame around me. And it was so stuck and sticky and stagnant because it'd been there for so long. And my ego just wanted to hold on to it and keep it forever. And I remember I did, I remember I did MDMA therapy with my therapist. And I'm not sure if you've ever taken MDMA or you know the effects of MDMA. It makes you feel very, very good and it expands your heart. And I'd never taken the drug. I didn't really do drugs at all growing up. And I remember taking it and it was just— the only way I can explain it is if the shame was in every part of my being, it was now outside of my body and I had separation from it and I could see it and I could speak to it and I could love it and I could understand why it was there.. And then through that process, you know, that was a couple of years ago now, I could integrate all of those lessons from that psychedelic journey. Um, yeah.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 46:11
When you say like yourself, is it actually liking yourself or is it acceptance, right? Is it like where you can say, hey, I don't have to like an addiction, but I have to really accept that it was part of me and that it was, you know, So, I like that question.
John Milham (Host) · 46:31
Are you familiar with Peter Crone?
Shay Hare (Guest) · 46:33
Yeah, I've seen. Yeah. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 46:36
So Peter said something. I'm a massive Peter fan. I'm going to meet him one day. I can't wait to meet him one day. Peter said something that really hit me, and it was loving the parts of yourself that you don't love. So for example, if there was a part of me that was full of shame that I didn't like or I hated, rather than just loving that part, love the part of you that hates. I love the part of me that doesn't like that part. I still have love for that part. And it's like I remember watching that and I was just like, whoa, I just felt so much. And I think it's just we get so caught up in us. If we can just take a step back and zoom out and just have complete compassion for all of it, we find peace.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 47:29
Is changing your relationship to the world and gambling, is that a cure?
John Milham (Host) · 47:37
Hmm, yeah. Well, I think even just the term, I'm really particular with language, so even the term cure is implying that there was a disease or something wrong beforehand.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 47:47
Yeah, yeah, very true.
John Milham (Host) · 47:48
And I don't believe in that world. I don't see the world through that lens, sorry. I just think there's complete freedom, complete peace, and complete acceptance of oneself, or there's not. And I think the whole purpose of this journey as a human being is to free ourselves of those constraints and those limitations and those things that keep us in prison. Emotional prison. And that's just the way I look at it. I think, you know, like love, light, peace, and freedom. And it might sound a little bit woo-woo or a little bit airy-fairy. I'm like, no, that's who we are. That's at our core. When we came out of the womb, that's who we were. When we were 3 years old dancing, not caring about what people thought. When we were naked and we didn't care about the tummy rolls or what, like we didn't care. Then life happened. So I think there's so much I just think the messaging around what it is to be a human can sometimes— we just get caught up in it. And I think COVID's been great because people have started to open their eyes and realize that there's more to life than career success, owning a home, owning land. It's like, I live up in Mullumbimby, which is like 15 minutes inland of Byron. I had a lovely encounter with a lady the other day, and she's just like, oh, come out to my house, got a beautiful property, you can come walk my track anytime. She's like, it's not my land, I own it, but it's not my land. And it's like, it's so true. Like, none of this is ours. Like, none of it. Um, yeah, I just think for me anyway, it's— there's no cure. There's no— it's just about— it's just getting back to who we truly are, which is love, light, peace, and freedom.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 49:25
There's no need for a cure. It's just a different choice on the day. Yeah, right.
John Milham (Host) · 49:31
So, well, when you say— when you say there's no need for— because I'm curious here— when you say there's no need for a cure, what do you mean by that?
Shay Hare (Guest) · 49:37
Well, in that there's nothing to fix. Right? You know, at the time, a solution, you know, it seemed like a good idea at the time. And now, now there are other ideas and options to take. And, you know, I just choose something different.
John Milham (Host) · 49:53
Yeah. Yeah. But I actually kind of hit home with me what you just said. Like, it's like there was nothing wrong with you in the first place. There's nothing wrong with any of us.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 50:03
No, absolutely. It's like, you know, the myth of mental illness, right? You know, It's not, you know, being sad or broke. You know, as a child, developing strategies to keep yourself safe regardless of what they are is just advanced living, right? It's amazing talent. A child can keep safe by choosing something they find or can develop, right? It's, you know, it's kind of emotional MacGyverism. You know, like I can take a matchbox and two strings and turn it into an emotional safety zone. Right. And unfortunately, it's not their fault that it's based on a, you know, sort of manipulative model put in there by, you know, other, you know, other forces that don't have your good, your best intentions at heart.
John Milham (Host) · 50:49
For sure. For sure. And like, people go through inhumane, horrible things that are so traumatic and the body disassociates when that happens. The body has such intelligence that it disassociates and it's like, you know what, we're going to get you out of here. This isn't safe. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? Yeah, and it's, it's, it's wild. And yeah, that doesn't mean that it doesn't come with ramifications post that incident happening, um, but it's just, yeah, the intelligence of the body is just, yeah, it's wild, wild.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 51:23
I love that idea of tapping back into that intelligence, that resourcefulness, those strengths, and the experience that you've learned from to choose to develop other options. You know, the shame seems to lock us off from our own strengths to deal with things.
John Milham (Host) · 51:42
Everything's such a paradox. It's like I was talking before, you were talking about the cure, and I'm like, well, there's no cure because, you know, there's nothing wrong with you. That's one lens to look at it through. Another lens that I like to look at it through is, well, the cure is shining a light on the shame. You know, I truly believe, and I've spoken about this a lot with suicide. I just, I truly believe that if a, let's just talk about a male because, you know, that's where you and I—
Shay Hare (Guest) · 52:14
We have more experience with being male than anything else.
John Milham (Host) · 52:18
So, for sure. But just take a male. If we go back to that suicidal spectrum that I was talking about before, you know, males at a 9. And, you know, he's ready to go. I truly believe that if that male just expressed to one human being, whether it be a stranger or someone they could just express, and all they expressed was, "Hi, I'm John, and I'm thinking about ending my life." I just think just that one, not "I need help," not "I need, talk me out of it," I just need you to know that I'm thinking of ending my life. This life that I'm in right now, I'm thinking of ending it. Just that, just that. Like, and then, you know, my head goes down a rabbit hole. Like, well, how do we encourage more men to do that? Because I truly believe that if you do that and you voice it, that 9 out of 10 has just dropped so dramatically. Because how many people have taken their life and there were no signs. No signs. None. It's like, what if that one person just said it once? Yeah, yeah, just once. But it's like, you know, how do you— and it comes back to shame. There's still so much shame around suicide, um, just in general. So I just think the whole Earth, this whole planet, um, just needs a lot of love and light because there's a shame everywhere. There is shame everywhere. And yeah, it's not who we are. We're not shame.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 53:51
Really love that idea, right? It's not, you know, you're not, you know, you're not debasing, you're not sort of prostrating yourself, you're not admitting weakness or whatever. In fact, that question is, you know, is just, you know, drips strength, right? You know, just, you know, being able to share that, like, it feels strong. It feels like it's a warrior kind of question, right? So regardless of where it comes from, just opening up to that feels like courage walking. It's really an interesting idea and I really love it. The idea of— so you promoted awareness around suicide and men's responses to suicide. But what do we need to do to invite men to explore that kind of radical candor and courage, right, in action? How, you know, what's your thoughts around that?
John Milham (Host) · 54:52
Oh, well, it's hard, hey, because it's like I always play devil's advocate, you know, like I think of the male out there that's about to do it. I think of the male that did it yesterday, and there's a male that's probably going to do it today. Like, it's just, just in Australia.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 55:09
We know 8 of them will likely by the end of the day not be around.
John Milham (Host) · 55:14
Well, there you go. Exactly. And I think of them, and then I, you know, I play devil's advocate because I'm just like, for all I know, their upbringing was so brutal that it's like you don't ever show vulnerability, ever. And if you do, you're out of the house. Like, I didn't grow up in an environment like that, but I know some people do. So the idea of sharing that is almost impossible for them. But it's not impossible. It's almost impossible. So my message doesn't go out to that person. My message more so goes out to everyone else that all has a role to play. In decreasing this number. And that is, if someone says to you, "I'm thinking of taking my life," you sit them down, you say, "Tell me about your life." And that's it. Just tell me what's going on. And not for one second do you tell them that everything's going to be okay or that you can fix it. You just, you just sit there and listen. That's It, because even by saying everything's going to be okay, it'll all get better, you're just invalidating them. Because in their eyes, in their world, it's not. And I just think as a culture, we just were too quick to try and fix. And it comes from a good place. So it's not like it's coming from a bad place. It's coming from a good place. I just think we need to be better at just listening. It just sounds so simple. And for the person out there. Try it somewhere else. Try sharing something that maybe isn't as crippling as the idea of sharing that and just see how it feels. And like I said about my mom and the analogy of the backpack and the pebbles, you just share it. You just share it.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 57:06
Just start lightening the load and see where it takes you.
John Milham (Host) · 57:09
Yeah. Yeah. You stay in your head, you're dead. Like, you know, whether that be physically or emotionally. Like, if you just stay in your head, you're dead. Like, it's Oh, I've been ruminating the last couple of days over a couple of things and just the rumination, it's just, oh, get me out of here. I've got to talk about this to someone. It's just not fun. It's not fun.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 57:28
Brilliant advice. A wonderful take on it. Where are you going with your journey in, you know, helping people and sort of unlocking, you know, some sort of future place where you continue to learn and whatever's ahead?
John Milham (Host) · 57:50
Yeah, well, learning will never stop. The more I learn, the more I realize I know nothing. The more I think I figured it out, the closer I am to not realizing I figured it out. But Where am I at? You know, I've got a lot of passion for a lot of different things. I think right now for me, it's just all about alignment. So for a while there, I just wanted to try to coach everyone and help everyone and realized that I want to work with people that light me up. I want to work with people that, you know, make me feel excited and that I feel like I'm a match with. I think I want to do some stuff around gambling and prevention. I actually spoke to one of my reflex— or not one of, my reflexologist the other day, and I was telling her about this opportunity to do this gambling stuff and go out and talk, talk in schools and sporting clubs. But I'm like, it just doesn't feel right. And she's just like, it's— and she said to me, she's like, it's because gambling is not a problem. There's potentially deeper work out there to be done. And, you know, that's kind of really resonated with me. It's like, even though I can go out there and talk about it and create hope based off lived experience, I'm not really sure where, you know, which, which way I want to show up or how I want to contribute. But what I do know is I just want to have fun. A lot of my life hasn't been fun because I've been, you know, caught up in my own problems in the world. So now, I just want to have fun and be free and laugh and do the things I want to love. And once I find my little niche of how I want to help people, I'll really nestle into that. But I'm sure it's going to change, John. I reckon if we spoke in 12 months, I'll be on a whole new path. And then another 2 years after that, it'll be a whole new path too.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 59:45
When you look at— so Australia seems to be in this sort of love affair with gambling. Right, you know, we— the ads are so, you know, like targeted at young men just like yourself, right? And, you know, puts it up as, you know, solve all your social problems. And, you know, you know, you— the sport we love, the games we play, uh, the, you know, clubs we're members of are all promoting gambling vigorously. And, and, you know, and powerfully to connect with us in the place we, we think and feel. What, what do we do about that, right? Like, you know, can we prep to be resistant to that? Then, you know, do we need to develop awareness? What's your thoughts on the Australian society making this a, a thing?
John Milham (Host) · 1:00:44
Yeah, gotta be mindful here because I get angry and passionate about this topic. 8-year-old kid can go to a local game of football and see 185 ads unconsciously to gamble. You know, it's the war on drugs and, you know, we all know that the negative impact a drug can have on someone. I just think it's corrupt. There's agendas. It's money. It's part of the culture that we're in. And I think it is and it will get taken down eventually. And I think in my lifetime, definitely, it will get taken down. And I think it's not about— it's not about— there are countries in the world you can't gamble because they've got the intelligence to realize how much of a problem it can be on society. Those governments that run those countries have one interest and one interest only, and that's the human beings that live in it, the quality of life that they live. Unfortunately, in our country and other countries, there's agendas and there's interests and there's money involved. So I think, you know, I can sit here and be like, blame, blame, blame, blame. Now, don't blame, take responsibility and fight if you truly believe in it. But then also on the other side of that coin, is you've got to take agency into your own life. Like, you've got to, you know, you can sit there and be like, well, it's normal to gamble and it's everywhere, and that's not going to get you anywhere. So to the 13-year-old little Shay out there right now who's just started gambling, or to the 55-year-old that is still going to Gambling Anonymous meetings, that still identifies as a gambling addict or a recovering gambling addict, which he's not, they're not, they're just human beings. They're not any of that. I would just say, just talk about it. Because an addiction can't survive with light. And with shame, it will grow and it will fester and it will spread into every other area of your life. But just talk about it. Just talk about it. I'm not saying don't gamble either. I would never encourage or my messaging to be, don't ever gamble. That's just— that's, that's not my view on anything in life, to just be all or nothing. Um, but just talk about it if it's a problem, or if it's becoming a problem, or you're scared, or you're frustrated, or, um, just talk about it. That's it.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 1:03:15
Beautiful advice, mate, and it's been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for offering such insight, both courageously sharing your journey, but also what you've learned. You've really shone a light on so much stuff today that I'm just so amazed. And I just want to thank you sincerely for being here and opening up. Fantastic, man.
John Milham (Host) · 1:03:45
Thank you, John. I am. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me today.
Shay Hare (Guest) · 1:03:48
Welcome. And thank you from Kintsugi Heroes and the listeners out there. So thanks, Shay Hair at Stories That Matter. We'll talk soon, mate. Good on you.
John Milham (Host) · 1:03:58
Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, Share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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