Sean Haran
From the Police to First Responder PTSD Advocate - Sean Haran
Sean Haran learned he had ADHD at 55, reframing a lifetime of seeking excitement and a fracture that cost him his tribe.
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Sean Haran
Sean Haran learned he had ADHD at 55, reframing a lifetime of seeking excitement and a fracture that cost him his tribe.
Hear this story
Sean Haran joined the Western Australian police in 1978 after a sympathetic doctor helped him past a colourblindness test that would have blocked his path. He spent fifteen years in uniform, finding his place in the Tactical Response Group after it became a full-time unit in 1985. It was the job that finally made sense of his restless need for excitement, the work that gave him belonging. Then he was asked to leave, and it destroyed him. Years later, at fifty-five, Sean discovered he had ADHD, a diagnosis that reframed his whole life. The drive for excitement, the difficulty with rules, the reason he'd been pushed out of the unit, it all became clear far too late.
When Sean left policing, he didn't just lose a job. He left Western Australia, his mates, and the deep friendships that come from shared service. The years that followed were a struggle. He worked as an ambulance officer, tried to find his footing in civilian life, and carried undiagnosed ADHD alongside untreated PTSD. What finally shifted things was finding purpose again through work, then through a conversation at a funeral. Sean's mate Simon attended the wake of a first responder who had left the service, was struggling, and took his life, leaving a wife and two children. That loss sparked an idea: what if there was a program to help people leaving first responder work imagine a different future?
Beyond the Badge offers a five-day career transition program at no cost, with no pressure and no reporting back to any organisation. Sean's message to anyone leaving the service is simple: there's a chance to find meaningful work, to reconnect with purpose, and to build a life that still matters. The worst thing the system does, he says, is push people into sitting at home for years. What actually heals them is finding purpose again.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses grief & loss, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • Lifeline (24/7 crisis support): 13 11 14 · lifeline.org.au • GriefLine: 1300 845 745 · griefline.org.au
“I didn't just leave the cops, I left my home, I left my, you know, Mum and Dad... I knew nobody other than Julie. And, um, I've struggled even now.”
“I essentially was asked to leave the unit. Uh, and it destroyed me, John. It was just, uh, I finally found a place for me to be, and, um, you know, that, that I loved.”
“You're going to be exposed to traumatic events... More likely than not you're going to have some repercussion from that. Why the hell can we still get away without really, you know, even at the academy level, you should be talked about, told about what might happen and here's how we're going to deal with it.”
The hero, today
Sean discovered at mid-fifty that he had ADHD, which had shaped his whole life, his drive for excitement, his struggle to follow rules, and why he was eventually asked to leave the TRG, but understanding it came far too late. When Sean left the police force, he lost not just a job but his entire tribe, his home state, and his deep friendships, and it took him years of struggle and eventually playing golf with older men to reconnect with ordinary people again. Agencies know that officers will almost certainly be exposed to traumatic events, yet they still don't teach cadets at the academy level how to manage it or offer consistent support, treating mental health as something to be defended against legally rather than something to be prevented. Sean created Beyond the Badge after his mate Simon attended a funeral for a first responder who had left the service, was struggling, and took his life, leaving a wife and two children. Sean says the worst thing the system does is push people who admit to struggling into sitting at home for years, when what actually heals them is finding purpose again through work, family, or meaningful activity. Sean tells people leaving the service that there's no pressure to get a job immediately, no cost to his program, and no one will report back to any organisation, just a chance to walk away with a different sense of what the future might look like.
Yes. Sean Haran is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Sean discovered at mid-fifty that he had ADHD, which had shaped his whole life, his drive for excitement, his struggle to follow rules, and why he was eventually asked to leave the TRG, but understanding it came far too late.
When Sean left the police force, he lost not just a job but his entire tribe, his home state, and his deep friendships, and it took him years of struggle and eventually playing golf with older men to reconnect with ordinary people again.
Agencies know that officers will almost certainly be exposed to traumatic events, yet they still don't teach cadets at the academy level how to manage it or offer consistent support, treating mental health as something to be defended against legally rather than something to be prevented.
John Milham (Host) · 00:00
Kintsugi Heroes acknowledges funding that was made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at cbf.org.au. Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. In this episode, John Milham is joined by Sean Harron, who shares his remarkable journey from his roots in England to serving as a police officer in Western Australia. Despite setbacks, including being asked to leave his beloved tactical response group and learning about his ADHD and PTSD later in life, Sean's resilience shines through.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 00:54
He found purpose again by helping other first responders transition smoothly into new careers through his charity Beyond the Badge.
John Milham (Host) · 01:02
Sean's story is one of transformation, service, and advocacy for mental health. Enjoy this one with Sean Harron.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 01:14
So, Katsuki Heroes, uh, listeners, welcome back to another podcast, another session for Stories That Matter. And today, as always, I usually say it, but I'm particularly keen to have a chat with this man who has a background in law enforcement, first responder. And not only that, then the consequences of that experience has moved into helping, you know, in making as an advocate and working with policy and on the ground and serving, serving those who serve us. Uh, and that's Sean Horan. Sean, welcome to Consider Heroes, mate.
John Milham (Host) · 01:56
Yeah, thanks, John, and it's great to be here, mate. I know we sort of started this process a while ago, and it's, it's, it was nice to get a, uh, an invitation to jump on, uh, in the new year which we're in. And, um, happy new year to yourself and all your, your podcast listeners. And, uh, yeah, it's a pleasure to be here, mate, to tell the Oh mate, it's our privilege to have you.
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Sean created Beyond the Badge after his mate Simon attended a funeral for a first responder who had left the service, was struggling, and took his life, leaving a wife and two children.
This conversation includes a boy from brighton to perth, the navy dream that didn't happen, getting past the colourblind test, finding his place in the tactical response group, asked to leave the unit and four years as an ambulance officer.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 02:17
Um, today, you know, just to sort of, you know, put a coat on it, um, yeah, we're going to talk about, um, you know, the effect that being in the force and, you know, being a first responder and serving the community has on people with mental health and lives and the challenges that brings. And also we're going to talk about your response to your experiences. But maybe it's good to start with, like you were telling me, you are another imported asset, right? We brought you over from England again to look after us like so many others. How did you and your folks just, what, decided to come to Australia?
John Milham (Host) · 03:06
Yeah, look, despite my age and appearance, I didn't come out with the convicts. Um, but, uh, mum and dad— dad's Irish, mum was English— and I grew up in Brighton in England to the age of 7 and spent a fair bit of time in Ireland and have plenty of relatives in both. And, um, I think dad decided that England wasn't a place for the Irish, and, and we, we headed out to the colony. So, uh, we would— yeah, the classic 10-pound Poms. Um, but what happened for 5 years later as we went back, which a lot of people do, and we stayed 2 years and came back again. So I'm actually a 20-pound pom. They, they, they gave us another crack, a crack at it. And, um, and what's interesting now, mate, is, is I, I always looked at those things as an adventure, you know. I was one of those kids that went to lots of different schools and mum and dad moved around and Housing Commission, and when we got here and I always thought that was adventurous. And what I, you know, recently found with a bit of a deep dive into my life is that those things actually really affected me. Um, grew up in Perth and, um, I, I went off to join the Navy at 15 and a half and they, they told me I was colorblind. So that, that was the end of my only real passion I suppose I had, uh, and the only real ambition I ever had was to join the Navy. But got knocked back. Um, tried to go back to school, started an apprenticeship, just couldn't find myself. And then I was, I was playing football, soccer with a mate, and he just joined the Police Academy. I thought, wow, that looks exciting. Um, and that word exciting had become for me— I was always looking for something exciting, and I didn't realize till later on why, but I'll come back to that. But, um, Well, I thought I'd have a crack at this, and I managed to get through the colourblind test because the old police doctor was a different breed, a different era. And instead of going through the normal test, he just took me to his library and said, well, what colour is that book and what colour is that book? And wham, I was in. So April 1978, I became a West Australian policeman, and, uh, and I loved every minute of it. Yeah, I did some— obviously did some jobs that I still remember that I not, you know, I wouldn't say were enjoyable, but overall I did 15 years with the cops. Um, you know, I was lucky enough to end up in the Tactical Response Group, which, you know, was just a boy's own dream, uh, you know, and, uh, yeah, I had a ball.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 05:39
Just quickly on the Colerbine thing, did you know you were a cowboy?
John Milham (Host) · 05:44
I didn't, I didn't, I didn't when I, when I went to join the Navy, but I did when I went to join the cops. So I just kept my fingers crossed. And the example that the, the officer, the naval officer gave me was that if you're on board a ship and there was a fire, you were told to go and get the— whenever the brown hose, which would have water, you might have grabbed the red one, which was fuel. So I walked out sort of laughing but crying, thinking, okay, that, that's, that's bullshit. But anyway, I got a cop. But, um, look, I, I I'd love to say it never affected me, and I don't think it did, but it was probably times when, you know, especially my early days, I, I went and just found an exciting couple of years riding police motorbikes and fast cars and chase, getting involved in chases and, you know, prangs and fatalities and, and all that stuff. And maybe calling the occasional chase, I might have just said a red car, maybe it was green, who knows. But the red Joe was the same, so I thought it was okay.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 06:37
Fair enough. Of course, you were joining at a fairly turbulent time for Western Australian Police, right? It was like, uh, Western Australia was a bit of a frontier and maybe a little frontier attitude.
John Milham (Host) · 06:50
Oh, definitely not. And I probably realized that more when I, when I came over here. Um, you know, WA, you know, all the different tags—
Sean Haran (Guest) · 06:59
wait a while.
John Milham (Host) · 07:00
Um, it's, uh, you You know, I remember the number plates back in the day, WA, the State of Excitement, and you know, they try to secede from the rest of the country.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 07:10
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 07:11
I first realized when I came over here and I started up a little business and I was going back to WA to try and sell that, I was running armed robbery training for banks and credit unions, etc., and I'd go back to Perth and start talking to, you know, various people, and the first thing they say is, oh, you're from the eastern states, aren't you? And it wasn't until I said, well, yeah, I'm living there, but I spent— I was in the cops here and, you know, I spent half my life. Oh, you're okay. It was a real— on us. And, you know, anything, anything east of that border, whatever the state is, it's just the eastern states. It's them. It's WA and the eastern states. Um, you know, and they— it's just bizarre. And it really hit me when I, when I come over here. It's a very isolated place. It's, it's apparently the most isolated city in the world. They thrive on that, you know. So, um, yeah, so, um, I, I joined the cops, had a wonderful 15 years. Um, as I said, during the, the TRG in 1985 after the Porton bombing, as you, you might not be aware, but every state, um, through the SACPA agreement with the federal government, had to stand up a a full-time tactical team. Many states at that time had a part-time squad, which I was a member of, um, and in 1985 they had to have a full-time squad stood up that could tackle counter-terrorism, etc. Um, so very exciting times.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 08:40
That, um, you know, we've seen it, you know, escalate these days, right? So, you know, the quasi, uh, military approach, right? So, you know, SWAT or TRG for us has really, you know, amped up its militaristic sort of profile, right? And that would have been exciting as a young copper, but, uh, yeah, what are your thoughts about it now?
John Milham (Host) · 09:05
Is it—
Sean Haran (Guest) · 09:05
was it the right way to go?
John Milham (Host) · 09:08
Yeah, look, I, I— it was in the sense that, um, you know, the police powers and military powers are very different. Um, so, and I know there's been a lot of talk over the years, especially with, with Lick Cafe. What came out of that was that the military should have been, etc. At the end of the day, you know, our legal provisions within Australia is that for domestic matters, the police, the police legislatively, legislatively, easy for me to say, uh, required to, to handle that. And that's how But mate, I look back now, I'm actually going to reunion in July, 40 years from when the TAG started. And when I look at what the guys have got today in terms of equipment and, you know, their boats and their equipment, it's just incredible. You know, when I started in '85, mate, we were handed an old green bag with a pair of green overalls and KT-26 boots at the And I remember them well, World War II gas mask, and it wasn't much. So, um, you know, when you were going to jobs in those days, there wasn't much protection, but you didn't, you didn't think about it because that was just what, that's what you had. Um, and, um, you know, I actually did a tour of the TRG offices last year, went back to Perth, and I'm just blown away by, you know, we had a locker with a bit of crap in it, and the guys now have got a cage the size of half my size of my garage, and they've got equipment, you know, coming with—
Sean Haran (Guest) · 10:37
well, just the body armor and everything.
John Milham (Host) · 10:39
It's just amazing. Uh, so they should, you know, so they should. Yeah. So you see, I love those days. We were very lucky in Perth because at the time, um, there was only one, um, military, um, um, you know, there's only one SAS, uh, position around the country, which was in Swanbourne in Perth. There was no, um, you know, group over here. Uh, and I won't go into details, but, um, I, I essentially was asked to, to leave the unit. Uh, and it destroyed me, John. It was just, uh, I finally found a place for me to be, and, um, you know, that, that I loved.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 11:22
And, um, so did you feel home there? That was the— you, you mentioned being a Gypsy. But that was a place that really grounded.
John Milham (Host) · 11:29
Oh yeah, yeah, for me it was, you know, you know, I, I never really got over not joining the Navy, and I felt there was, there was something. And I didn't come from a military family or anything, but there was something within me that, um, just felt this is, this is my place, you know. And I'll jump ahead a bit and come back, but I, I didn't find out until my mid-50s I had ADHD. Um, and it's affected my whole life, um, without question. And, you know, a lot of people say it's a, uh, it's a super, um, you know, it's just, it's something special. And it can be, it does, you know, it gives you, it just gives you certain powers, I suppose. But it, it can be a real, a real issue. And I look back now and I understand why I was asked to leave that group, in a sense, because, you know, Since that time, I've, I've worked in a, in a corporate environment and I've managed people. And I, I could see, you know, if I look back and, and it was told by a 25-year-old, you know, to a 25-year-old Sean Harran, I would have thought, look, this guy's good, but he's a bit of a troublemaker and he's, he likes to bend the rules a bit. And, you know, maybe better off if he went somewhere else. I could see that now, but at the time, and for many years, I was just angry about the whole thing. Um, so I walked out of there and I tried to fight every way I could. I went and did everything I could to try and beat the system, and that's what my dad taught me, that sort of Irish, you know, to keep the flag flying, fight the system. And I did that as best as I could. And then, you know, 2 years later, 18 months later, I decided just to pull the pin. So I wasn't sort of boarded out medically. I made a choice to leave. Setting up a new home and that sort of thing and finding work and doing the normal things, it wasn't there. And I, and I, man, I didn't know how to get a job. I had no idea who to go to, how to write a resume. I didn't even know what I wanted to do. Um, you know, I could have had a crack at the cops again, but by that time I was just bitter and angry and twisted, and I, and I was— the last thing on my mind. I did apply for a couple of things and Um, I actually got accepted into the AMBOs. Um, so I've spent 4 years as a, as an AMBO then from '94 to '98, which was interesting because I was still had a, still had a police head on and I was trying to help people. And if I went to a situation where there was a bit of trouble going on, I'd be, you know, drawn to the trouble rather than patient. But I was also trying to build up a business and Um, yeah, the struggle with— I had with that first 18 months was I, I had nothing, no idea, no contacts, no networks over here. And I'll come back to that because that was part of why we— I'm doing what I'm doing now with Beyond the Badge, because I totally understand where people are in that transition period.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 14:33
One of the things I noticed here, like, with AMBO's employees, right, the first responders generally is it has that tribe element to it, right? And that's really important because that tribe, for the need of other services and supports, right? Often you can't take it home to your family or there's not a lot of general sort of understanding from the community. So, you have to stick together to deal with the consequences of the job. Was that like, when you talk about thinking about what you do next, that must have been a challenging transition for you, mate.
John Milham (Host) · 15:13
I'll tell you what, I was just talking to, to my wife about this last night. The probably the biggest thing for me is, is, is I didn't just leave the cops, I left my home, I left my, you know, Mum and Dad. Dad was still alive, I had brothers and lots of mates and I came there almost— I might as well have gone to a new country. I knew, I knew nobody other than Julie. And, um, I've struggled even now. I just started playing golf this last couple of years, and I'm playing with a bunch of older guys, and man, I'm loving it because I'm reconnecting with, with normal people. And it took me— it's taken me a long, long time to, to reconnect again. I, I try to go and join a soccer club when I was here early, and I came home and Julie said, how'd you go? And I think I pretty much said, man, they're a bunch of dickheads. They might be great people, but they weren't my tribe. I know I didn't get them, and they probably— I didn't think they got me. So I've really struggled over these years to make, you know, to make good friendships. I've had— I've got lots of work colleagues I've ended up with, and, you know, people I can go to, but I've really struggled with that sort of deep mateship. So my, my best mates, other than one, are still back in WA, um, who I don't talk to a lot and maybe catch up with occasionally. But that's been a real hard thing for me, is leaving that tribe and trying to find another one. It's, it's a really challenging thing. And I think that's why you, you tend to, um, try and hang around those people. Yeah, so that, that was, to be honest, man, that was a real challenging thing for me, and in some ways still is. You know, as I said, I'm only just reconnecting with, with people again all this time in, in a friendship sense, just by playing golf.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 16:59
And so there's a— in my mind, you know, like, in doing, you know, talking to so many people and some of the work I do in mental health, I see me like that aspect of disconnection with peers and, and the depth of our friendships as a real issue, right? Where, like, do you think the job also creates barriers, right? That's, you know, that whole idea of not talking about stuff deeply or putting it aside or disassociating from those tough days, maybe even, you know, having a few beers and then, you know, sleeping it away. Does that, you know, is that part of it? Is that necessary but has its cost, or is it something we could change?
John Milham (Host) · 17:44
Yeah, it's a great question. And I would say, you know, I've probably got two— probably got two parts of me these days. I've got the old Sean Harran that, you know, that joined the cops and went through all that in the early days here. And I've kind of got a new, a new version of me now through a whole range of things that have happened to me and, and through the charity, that I think a little bit differently about things. If I was, you know, if I was talking to a younger police person now, I would encourage them to— yeah, that bond is incredibly important for you, but I would encourage you to maintain a circle of friendships outside as well, you know. Um, and maybe that's changed with, you know, with the current sort of generation. I'm not sure, but, um, it was part of— it certainly was part, an important part, because you you do tend to realize that not many people understand what you do and don't actually want to. You know, you go to a barbecue and they want to hear some, some, some worries, and I want to complain about a parking ticket or something, but they don't really want— I don't really want to know about the stuff you do day to day. You know, and I was having this conversation over a beer after golf yesterday with a bunch of guys and saying that, um, you know, yeah, I've done some, some pretty nasty jobs, but, and someone's got to do them. In fact, one of the guy's daughters is a paramedic, and, you know, he was saying she comes home and talks about stuff. Um, the answer is someone's got to do this work. You know, we've got to have a military, we've got to have police, got to have paramedics and fireys, but they're not things that, you know, you're going to things that human beings shouldn't see and shouldn't do, but they've got to be done, um, until we could find a different way. Um, so I'm not sure we've got better at dealing with it, um, both on an individual level and on an organisational level. Um, I know some things have improved and a lot of agencies talk about what they're doing. I'm not always seeing that evidence on the ground. I think, I think there's a long way to go to, you know, to have that real understanding and support of people. Um, you know, when they finish their service and how to manage them. And, um, we're still not there yet. There's a long way to go.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 20:01
Yeah, well, the, you know, the Royal Commission into, you know, veteran affairs and so on has been, um, pretty, pretty tough, uh, you know, talking about what isn't, isn't there yet, you know, what, uh, you know, what guys who are serving and, you know, post-service have to go through just to to feel safe and to feel sort of supported.
John Milham (Host) · 20:24
Yeah, look, that— I think that one of the positive things out of that for us as police and first responders is, you know, Nick Kaldas, um, was, was involved in, in that. And, uh, you know, he'll— I know he's sort of come back and saying to himself, hey, a lot of this stuff is, is same, same for for police, you know, being a former deputy commissioner. Um, so I'm sure that some of his learnings in that and findings will also, you know, move on to the police and first responder field as well. And I'm hoping that will happen just to, to try and get things moving along in a better way.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 21:06
And related to that, you know, the— you know, I'm sure you've encountered, you know, as you go back and you create education and support through the charity itself. We go on a journey of learning as well, right? So what have you learned that is, you know, that you wish was around when you were in that space where you were just without any backup really?
John Milham (Host) · 21:36
Yeah. Yeah. But I think, I think the most important thing now that I would— again, my advice to anyone, you know, joining the police or any, any first responder agency or even the military would be, um, it's more likely than not that you're not going to have a 30, 40-year career. Um, you know, it's more— it's, it's less likely nowadays that you go right through. So at some point you're probably going to hop off that get off that bus and, and look and be looking for something else. Um, my advice now would be at some point in time, and again, this could be an organizational thing to help people move on, at some point in time, start preparing yourself for the future. You know, find something within the job, you know, and a great example, and not everyone wants to be a prosecutor, but that's a good example. You know, if you, if you went into— if you had your fun, did you whatever, 5 years, 10 years, and then you've got into prosecuting, you know, potentially the organization pays for a law degree, that kind of thing, you know, what a great, what a great way to, to, to, to re-enter the workforce as a solicitor trained by the police. And, you know, that, that's, that's probably the perfect example, but there's many other things you can do nowadays that, that would help you move on. So finding something, you know, for me, um, again, probably driven by the ADHD, was, you know, just whatever I was doing. I didn't, I didn't have any ambition in the cops, John. I, I just loved it, you know. I went from fast bikes, fast cars, to, you know, run around with guns and, and, you know, drinking down the sergeant's mess. That was kind of just an exciting, but I Never thought about the future. Now we both had a, I mean, this is the big lesson, John, for me and for today is, you know, out of really struggling after my service and Simon the same, we both found ourselves in new work opportunities. That's what kept us going and, you know, we found our value again. And that's why this, you know, I guess this idea for the charity came along. So, um, and I was just doing a bit of consulting work. I was a bit lost again then. I sort of— it was almost like history repeating itself. I'd done something for 25 years and lost my tribe again. Um, and Simon was, was— he was doing some stuff but not, not completely fulfilled. And, um, and then tragedy struck. He, um, a very close— I won't mention names, but a very close mate of Simon's who he'd worked with in the Te Aiu here, um, had got out. Um, he'd been in the military as well. He got out and tried a bit of work, ended up working at a retirement village, and he was really struggling. And he took his life. He left a wife and two beautiful little kids. And so Simon went down, down the coast to the funeral and the wake with all the boys, and they were sitting around, and they made a commitment— or Simon made a commitment that, you know, we can't let this continue to happen, so I've got to do something about it. So he came back and, um, had an idea and, and, um, went to Police Legacy in Sydney and said, look, what are you guys doing for, you know, people who are struggling? Um, you know, we know that you look after them when they pass away, but who's doing anything for those who are getting out or trying to get out and living but struggling? And There were some little things going on, but not a lot. So he grabbed me and said, mate, why don't we try and put something together? So we put together what was essentially then a 5-day program, which we call a career transition program, but it was really, you know, through our own understanding and connection, knowing what people needed and how they were feeling. Um, it's getting people together for 5 days and and working through how they feel, what they're going to need, who to connect with, how to continue to connect with us when they finish the program. And yeah, that's, that's it now, man. It's been, to be honest, you know, the, the love I had for the cops when I was there, I've now got for it, for it, for the charity and the work we're doing, because I'm reconnecting with my original tribe. And that's been a great thing too, but I'm doing it in a positive way and Um, I'm not getting sort of bogged down in, in going to, to work and having those, those events. I'm actually external to that and helping, providing a help end for those who are, who are trying to make the move out.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 26:18
There's a couple of things I'd like to go and dive into if it's all right. First of all, you mentioned PTSD, you know, and a lot, your experience of it. Like, PTSD, you know, is the consequence of our management of trauma in many ways, right? And how that goes on and has impact. Um, what do you think is, you know, is the job inherently dangerous that way? And why isn't this part— why isn't, you know, the— if there was a problem in the operation site you know, the force would move to fix the operational manual and, you know, training and so on. So why are the individuals expendable at the, you know, you know, the damage that's done mentally? Why is this such a problem to grasp?
John Milham (Host) · 27:13
Look, it's a great question. I'm not sure I have the answer, but I have, I have my own views. And, and I, I think, you know, um, again, because Simon's got into that safety space. And my part of my responsibilities at companies like DHL was to, you know, to have that safety lens as well. And at the end of the day, you know, there's certain things you go through if you're in an industry and you can, you identify that there's hazards, there's certain processes you go through to reduce those hazards. Um, now when you think about it, when you join the police force and they're at the police academy they will teach you things that will keep you safe as best as, as can be. You know, they'll teach you, they'll teach you how to, how to talk to people, how to stand, where to stand, how to set up. And then the escalation, if, if, if it does, you know, go pear-shaped, um, he's, he's the, the force continuum, etc. Um, you know, all that stuff, it's a no-brainer. You know, how to drive a car, how how to drive a car fast. All those things are no-brainers because this is your daily work. Well, hello, we know historically the data is there that at some point in time you are more likely than not to suffer from a trauma, be exposed to trauma, and more likely than not have some mental health condition arise. So, so, you know, and the thing with it, with this, with the whole safety specter is if it's foreseeable, likely, you know, foreseeable, then, then we need to deal with it. But we still seem to, we seem to get away. So we agencies still seem to get away with the fact that it is entirely foreseeable that you, well, it's a no-brainer. You're going to be exposed to traumatic events.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 29:03
It's likely.
John Milham (Host) · 29:04
More likely than not you're going to have some repercussion from that. Why the hell can we still get away without really, you know, even at the academy level, you should be, you should be at that point in time talked about, told about what might happen and here's how we're going to deal with it. You know, whether that's weekly, monthly check-ins, um, you know, quarterly site, whatever it is, we're still not there yet. Why the hell now? And 2024, can we still not say to someone, John, thank you for your service, shake your hand, um, you know, you've put your life on the line for your state, your country, um, we're now going to help you move on, rather than making it hard, you know, legally challenging the fact that you might have or you have post-traumatic stress, going down a legal course of action to say, hang on, we, we don't believe that you've got that from the job. You know, are you kidding me? Um, we, we still, we're still not there with all that. So, uh, or at least feeling better about the future that, hey, you can do this. Here's a heap of examples of, you know, Simon and I and others we use, um, to, to, to show that, that, you know, you can do it. You can do this. And, and there is a future and it will look different and it'll be different, but you can still be satisfied with it. You can still have a great life and enjoy going to work. Um, that's the next phase of your life. It's not over when you leave the cops or the military or the, the services. It's, it's a part of your life, and be proud of it. Bring those skills with you because they're absolutely transferable. Um, learn how to talk about them in a different way, um, and, and move on. And that's what we try and do. That's what the Back Up Beyond the Badge is about.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 30:49
Um, fantastic, mate. And it's, uh, you know, I love the logistics the approach from an ADHD guy, fellow ADHDer, to come in to set up a logistics and routine organization is pretty in your face.
John Milham (Host) · 31:04
I like that.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 31:06
Do you think, like, there's a— Simon Sinek talks about leadership as being serving those who serve others, right? And that's what I'm seeing. You're offering leadership back into that force. But purpose, it has, you know, creates that environment for like engagement, you know, lack of distress, resilience, and so on. Is that what you're, you know, like, do men self-select for these kind of roles? Do you think, you know, it's that need for purpose and for service?
John Milham (Host) · 31:40
Oh, absolutely. I think, you know, men, women, all others. Um, um, I, um, I, I have a— I had my own theory about not only about the service bit, but I think, you know, those who end up going into, you know, special forces or tactical teams and that, you know, you know, the average punter would say, who would honestly stand in front of a door knowing that someone inside with a firearm that's been firing Who would stand in and, you know, kick that door, knock that door, blow that door and run in? Uh, who in their right mind does that stuff? You know, um, and, you know, my, my own little theory is that I think you're kind of predisposed to, you know, and for me, it's probably the ADHD brain that chases that excitement, but also um, doesn't think about the consequences. Um, you know, we're very good at compartmentalizing things. So you can, you can be there with the excitement buzz, you know, running through, going, wow, I'm running around with a firearm, and, you know, look at me, gonna kick this door in. And, you know, the bit that, the bit that someone, a person with a normal brain would go, well, hang on, you could get shot when you go through that door, you'd put that— you can't compartmentalize that. And that could be a thought afterwards if you have a near miss or something. But it's just— so I, I think, I think there's a certain, um, you know, brain that chases that sort of thing. But thank God there is, because we need, we need people to do that stuff. I think, you know, the ability to— for us and other agencies themselves to try and sell those things, you know, we're about to embark on a, a video, uh, exercise with a company that's— I'll name them actually because they help with the— VidZero, they're called. And they're gonna— they're providing a free video, uh, promotion for 100 charities, and that's part of their, their corporate, um, they're doing. And, um, so we're about to embark and put together a video, which we've done, you know, videos before, but they're focused on the, the the first responder. This is more about employers saying, hey, how great these people are and the success they bring, the value they bring. So that's really exciting. And you know, this year, 2025, is going to be a real push to try and educate the world, assuming the world in Australia, about the value of employing first responders and police and the value they can bring. You know, put aside the stigma you think's there, but look at value they can bring. So that's, that's a mission here.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 34:28
What a fantastic approach, you know, the power of lived experience, the power of, of, of, um, bringing that, that, uh, the, you know, turning what people have traditionally seen as an issue into a, um, into a strength-oriented approach.
John Milham (Host) · 34:43
Yeah, absolutely. We've got so many great examples of those who have done it already, so it's a, you know, there's some, some good data there already.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 34:52
As you said, no-brainer, right? So I'm interested just on a personal perspective, you know, with your coming out of the services and, you know, you refocusing and finding new purpose each time and then sort of the journey you had with PTSD and the results, right? You know, that has, you know, it has an impact on your everyday. What was that? What did that journey mean for you? What has PTSD added to your world?
John Milham (Host) · 35:27
Yeah, look, it's an interesting question. I can honestly, I was thinking about this before we kicked off, just going over some stuff this morning in my head, but I think for me, and again, I think it's important to understand that everyone's journey with this is very different. I think for me, I've had more of a challenge with the ADHD than the PTSD. I would consider myself on a scale of, you know, PTSD sufferers, you know, down the bottom. How it first came to light for me was the first few years I was over here and I was waking up in the middle of the night having this, you know, these recurring dreams where I was being stabbed and attacked. And, you know, I still get that anger, and I still can still be in the car even at my age now, and someone will, you know, push in on it, and I just get— I've got to really calm myself down. I think that's for me. I, I don't so much struggle with the typical PTSD symptoms anymore. I'm pretty good. I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, I, I said, as I say, you live with it, but it doesn't really affect my life. And even with the ADHD, I, I've learned over the last few years to, to change the way I behave and think about things. So, you know, I think with the effort and with time and certainly with some good professional help, these things become, you know, they're still on your medical record. They're there as a tag, but they can become less and less. Overbearing on your life if you've got other things that are, that are important. And I think again, that idea of having a role where you can get up and go to work, or whether you work from home or go to work, and have a purpose. And, um, you know, the more, the busier you can be with purpose, whether that's family, work, or, you know, you sort of focus on this stuff and It's, you know, the worst, and this is the worst thing too with the system is that, um, when you put your hand up with it, the system sort of almost pushes you into the sitting at home house for 5 years, which is the worst thing that you can do. Uh, this, from almost managers of that way that, you know, don't go and get anything because it'll show, you know, you've got solicitors giving people advice. Don't, don't even walk out your front door. And enter our letterbox because it will show you've got some capacity. Um, it'll reduce your pain, all this crap, you know, uh, it's doing, it's just pushing people further down that hole. Um, you know, instead of getting out and finding purpose again and getting your life back on track, because that will help. We affect people's mental health in a positive way by finding a new, you know, a new life and purpose as a positive effect.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 38:23
That's right. None of these things are in isolation. What you, you know, you're having one side of things, you know, your logistics, your physical world, your physical health, your financial health, your relationship health, having them, you're working on them also impacts the rest of your mental health and resilience. So yeah. And yeah, I love, like, it's interesting, you know, you talk about the way you describe it. You know, there's an operational debrief after every, every, uh, you know, job, after every, you know, action. Um, and yet there's no— no, there's not that emotional or psychological debrief. It seems like it's, you know, a glaring miss, but for some reason we want to get into, you know, argument about people feeling bad instead of, um, yes, helping it, you know, and cutting it off at the knees. And of course the cost of it is, you know, it is— can be as serious as men's lives, as he described.
John Milham (Host) · 39:22
Yeah, look, we've got to be careful to say here that there's none of it. There certainly is. And it's— I know it's got better over the years. I mean, our debriefs were usually, you know, on the way back to the office job, someone to grab a carton, and— but at least we'd sit around and talk about the job. You know, nowadays it has got better. There is, there is support, that there's peer support support groups. There's— there is psychologists available. I think a lot of the challenge is, um, you can't always make this stuff compulsory, so it's still often up to the individual. Men— and I will be gender-specific here— men specifically still have that, you know, uh, hesitance to go and seek help because there's a fear of weakness. And again, one of the biggest challenges here in, even in 2024, is you're working in a, you know, a local area command or a specific specialist group, and, and you know your, your life's being affected by it, but you look around at your mates and you think, oh, they're all doing okay. If I put my hand up, I'm going to get named as a, you know, a weak, weak link. Um, my career will be over. Um, I can't, I can't live with that, so I just bash on. And that's, that's the other problem. Is if you had the confidence that when you put your hand up, you were going to get good help and be redirected back to all that sort of thing. But the fear is, if I put my hand up, I'm buggered. I won't put my hand up. So it continues. That's one of the other challenges. So I've got a long way to go.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 40:58
What are your key recommendations for, you know, blokes who have been in the service or, uh, you know, or just left, what, what do you—
John Milham (Host) · 41:09
what, what will you offer them? Yeah, look, I, I think that what I'll say to everyone is, is one, you know, the fact that there's no cost here with our program is, um, we, we're not going to do you any harm. You know, it's, it's the first rule of medical, you know, even a paramedic, do no harm, or first do no harm. I think that's the same with Beyond the Badge. If you come on our program It's not going to do any harm to you. Um, you will gain some valuable information, advice, whether you use it or not, that, that's entirely up to you. There's no pressure to, to go and get a job. And we, we've still got a few people who did the program back in 2018. They're not at work yet for a whole range of reasons and that, and that's okay. So it's, there's no pressure to get a job. We're not going to ring you in a week and say, hey John, where are you at mate? Come on, we got, we got stats to keep up. 'You need to get a job within 6 months.' No, we don't care. It's activity is important though. We'd like you to seek to be doing something, but we don't pressure you. We don't report back to any organization. We're entirely independent. You know, you'll walk away from the program with a, I guess, a different sense of what the future might look like. I think that's the most important thing. When and where you use that is entirely up to you. So You know, knowing after 2 and a half days that, wow, you know, on Monday I thought my work life was over and my life's stuffed. And now it's Wednesday and I realize through these guys that, um, I know how to do it now. When I, when I'm ready, I can reach out to them. They'll help me and hold my hand, uh, connect me with people. And there's a good chance I'll find something meaningful. And if not, I'll find something else. And, you know, often that first job's not the right one. And that's okay. It's making— and again, everyone's got, you know, don't be fearful of, of, um, being judged by your next step because, um, you know, I still have this ambition of maybe doing a couple days of Bunnings before I fully— others want to jump into that, that, that, you know, big dollar corporate gig, um, and that's fantastic. And others just want to do a bit of part-time or or even volunteering. There's plenty of options out there, but that's just to get back involved, find a purpose again, and that's what we can help you with.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 43:28
That's awesome. Just a, um, a thought as we sort of wrap things up, you know, the future of policing, right? Like, you, you're talking about the consequences of your, of, you know, past policing and where it is now, right? Things are improving and, you know, people are recognizing some of the challenges. But it's interesting, there's, you know, like, you know, the way things are done is, uh, is being challenged. Uh, there's new technology, you know, will we all have chips and, you know, will the police be a robot like RoboCop or whatever? What are you seeing as, as the trends?
John Milham (Host) · 44:04
But I'll tell you something from, um, before I finished up at Australia Post, I went to a meeting with some Um, I won't name them, but there was 4 or 5 federal agencies involved, and it was, uh, the topic was crime in the next 10 years. And, and now, bearing in mind this was probably 5 years ago, so it's already, it's already 5. And again, they talked about traditional, you know, policing. Um, either you get a complaint or become aware of, let's say, a crime occurring Um, you, through various means, you make inquiries with that, and most of those are, you know, feet on the ground type stuff, and, and then interviewing, putting statements together, gathering evidence, and then, um, you know, putting someone before a court, that, that type of thing. Um, so then they moved and said, right, in 10 years' time, this is kind of what we see is how the world will be. Um, and you'll still get your, you know, you'll get your broken enders things, and you'll get that stuff. And obviously domestic violence, which is scourge in our country. Um, you, for example, you will have, um, it was something like 80-90% of crimes may never be actually solved because the offender will never be found because they're sitting, you know, at a, at a desk in Azerbaijan or somewhere and takes it online. And we start to see this now., um, and their identity may never be found. And then trying to sort out, even if they are found, jurisdictions, you know, if they have committed offense against someone in Sydney, in a country, you know, in the back of Russia somewhere, what's the chances of any sort of prosecution? And that unless you've got some sort of global law enforcement agency that can take action, it's horrendous. And then giving the example of someone sitting, sitting somewhere in the world, you know, who's able to delve in and take a dollar out of, you know, a million people's bank accounts where they would not even notice or make a complaint. Suddenly you've scored yourself a million bucks and probably no follow-up. So that, that type of stuff is what we're seeing. And, you know, we know that there's people sitting in, you know, in rooms around the world working for, for, for gangsters and who were just putting out all this, all this stuff online to try and, you know, track people and, you know, um, pretend they're, you know, rich 25-year-old males and, you know, sending all this stuff to middle-aged, older-aged single women and getting them, you know, getting their fortunes delivered in bank. It's just horrendous. And it's starting now. So that's kind of, that's where, that's where that sort of crime law enforcement is going at a big scale. Yeah, there'll still be, you know, there'll still be boots on the ground, but I think that's, you know, that, that's where things are heading.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 47:00
Um, so, so, uh, more, uh, you know, some, you know, the future of policing is, uh, you know, the blokes we used to call nerds who are now running the place, right?
John Milham (Host) · 47:13
Yeah. So there's some really— and look, you know, again, if, if people have the interest, and I think, I think again, most police have that sort of inquiring mind. Um, you know, that whole idea of cyber security, and it's— it's— that's, that's going to be a, a big place for the future. And I think, you know, you can teach people, you can teach people how to, how to work the computer side of things. What you can't teach graduates and young kids is, is having that inquiring mind and looking at something and going, well, not quite right, let me look further into that, and let me look into it to the point where I'll find the root cause. That's what police have. And I think, you know, a lot of military people get into that cybersecurity space, and that's great. But I think my view is that, um, you know, police having that inquiring mind are going to do really well in that space. And again, we've got some great connections with some great people doing some good work in that space. And anyone interested, that's not a bad place to be looking at for the future.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 48:13
And Sean, what do you— what are you looking forward to in the next year?
John Milham (Host) · 48:16
Yeah, oh, that's an easy one, mate. Getting my golf handicap down.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 48:20
Oh man, yeah, all that great work and you ruin it with golf.
John Milham (Host) · 48:24
I don't know, it's, you know, the hardest thing for me with golf has been, you know, most of the things I've done in my life, it's, it's go hard, hit it hard, smash it, you know. Um, it's taken me— I've only been really playing a couple of years, but it's taken me 18 months to start to realize that the finesse and the, you know, don't grip it so hard, don't hit it so hard, it's the way to go. And when I do play a nice shot, I go, wow, that's, you know, I've got to tell myself to slow down and hit it softer. And but I grabbed that thing and like I'm going to wring its neck and smash it. There's a lot of, uh, yeah, a lot of useful regulation and learning skills of, um, apparently there's a lot of rules in golf and I don't know many of them, but anyway, but probably the other thing, mate, is just, just continuing to build beyond the badge and, um, getting a better connection and, um, better pathways with, uh, with companies and organizations and government to, to find better pathways for employment. That's my big goal this year. Yeah.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 49:28
Well, it's a, it's an incredibly worthy and purposeful aim you have. I think it's so necessary, and the work that you guys are doing is just wonderful. So I take my hat off and wish you well. And on behalf of Tiki Heroes, mate, thank you so much for a great chat.
John Milham (Host) · 49:49
Thanks, mate. It's been a pleasure.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 49:51
All the best for a fantastic year.
John Milham (Host) · 49:53
Same to you, mate.
Sean Haran (Guest) · 49:55
Cheers. Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series.
John Milham (Host) · 50:12
If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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