Katrina James
A counselor who works with migrants names the invisible cultural knowledge that makes belonging feel like failure.
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Katrina James is a counsellor who works with migrants not on migration itself, but on how being a migrant shapes everything else they do. In her practice, she sees people navigating invisible cultural barriers: the unspoken rules about hierarchy at work, the way a simple question about morning tea carries legal weight Australians take for granted, the belief that questioning your boss is rude when you learned your whole life that it is. She helps people separate what they think is true from what actually is true, and reframe the beliefs that stop them from operating in their new context.
But Katrina is careful about what she does and does not reframe. When a migrant tells her they have experienced racism or discrimination, she does not soften it or call it something smaller. That is real, and it belongs to them. What she reframes instead is how they operate from that belief, so they can move forward without carrying the weight alone.
She works mostly with professionals, and she has seen something that matters: migrants who thrive are not those with money or status, but those who let themselves swing between who they were and who they are becoming, honouring both. She has also seen the other side: skilled people losing their identity and professional standing because the system does not recognise their qualifications, and no amount of reframing fixes a broken system. What she shares with all her clients is something they often do not know. The migration policy itself says migrants bring three times more economic value to Australia than people born here. Start operating like that, she tells them. You are worth what the government says you are worth.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses abuse & exploitation, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • Blue Knot Foundation (complex trauma): 1300 657 380 · blueknot.org.au • 1800RESPECT (family, domestic & sexual violence): 1800 737 732 · 1800respect.org.au
“It's often just the fact of being a migrant and doing a thing, which could be getting a job, it could be navigating a relationship, it could be losing parents, you know. So it's all of that thing and being a migrant at the same time, which I think is something that all people always have with them.”
“These linear stories of your experience, ABC, actually stop people from getting help because they think, well, I should be past this stage already. I'm past the homesickness stage. Why am I feeling like this? I can't reach out for help because how embarrassing. I should have been over that 2 years ago. It's not true.”
“There's a huge power imbalance there, right? Because you're just always thinking, what about my visa? And that is, that for me, that makes these a particular group of people vulnerable because they don't have the same access to information or ability as someone who was born here.”
The hero, today
A migrant experiences every major life event, from getting a job to losing a parent, through a lens that someone born in the country does not have, and that lens colours everything. When someone holds a belief they learned their whole life about what is rude or impossible, they can learn to do the thing and still feel awful doing it, so reframing the belief matters more than teaching the behaviour. Things that feel resolved can come back when a smell, a birthday, a phone call to someone back home, or a major life stage triggers a feeling you thought you were past, and that does not mean you failed. The system that makes it hard for skilled migrants to work in their field is not something reframing can fix, but someone can choose how to operate within that system, whether that means leaving, staying while focusing on the money, or building a plan to move out. A migrant who succeeds is someone who honours the person who got them here and the person they are becoming now, letting themselves swing between the two without needing everything to be resolved.
Yes. Katrina James is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
A migrant experiences every major life event, from getting a job to losing a parent, through a lens that someone born in the country does not have, and that lens colours everything.
When someone holds a belief they learned their whole life about what is rude or impossible, they can learn to do the thing and still feel awful doing it, so reframing the belief matters more than teaching the behaviour.
Things that feel resolved can come back when a smell, a birthday, a phone call to someone back home, or a major life stage triggers a feeling you thought you were past, and that does not mean you failed.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 00:15
Hello and welcome to the podcast From There to Here, a podcast brought to life with Kintsugi Heroes. I'm your host, Emma Bellamy, and each week we will dive into conversations with people who get what it what it takes to rebuild a home away from home. Today, my guest is Katrina James. Katrina offers a compassionate, therapy-focused perspective on the complexities of migration. She's a registered counselor and the founder of Reframe Counseling, a mental health practice dedicated to helping migrants thrive in their new contexts. In this episode, she uncovers some of the unique challenges that immigrants face when adapting to the Australian workforce and culture. She shares great professional insights, including how migrants can reframe painful experiences and build confidence in a setting that wasn't necessarily built for them. If you want to step into a therapist's office without being on the couch, this episode is for you. Katrina James, welcome.
Katrina James (Guest) · 01:37
Thank you. I'm excited to be here. What a pleasure. What a treat. Thank you for inviting me.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 01:43
Katrina, can you please tell us about your approach to counselling and why it has the potential to help those who struggle with what migration involves?
Katrina James (Guest) · 01:54
Yeah, sure. There's not really one specific thing that I can say is, you know, migrant counseling. And it's not even always so much about like my— the act of migration that I'm helping people with. It's often just the fact of being a migrant and doing a thing, which could be getting a job, it could be navigating a relationship, it could be, uh, losing parents, you know. So it's all of that thing and being a migrant at the same time, which I think is something that all people always have with them. And so they're always experiencing things perhaps a little bit differently to somebody who was born in Australia and grew up with that culture.
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The system that makes it hard for skilled migrants to work in their field is not something reframing can fix, but someone can choose how to operate within that system, whether that means leaving, staying while focusing on the money, or building a plan to move out.
This conversation includes a therapist's view of what migration really asks of people, the boss, the chain of command, and what no one tells you, the feeling that's rude, even after you learn to do it, morning tea and what words really mean, retirement arrives and suddenly everything surfaces and the honeymoon, the shock, the adaptation: not a straight line.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 02:40
Okay, so you've, you've cited a few problems that some of your clients have experienced, but I wonder whether you can give us maybe another view of all the different issues that you've encountered? Well, not all of them, but you know, some of the most important ones, because I'm assuming it also depends on the stage of their migration journey, where they're at in the process.
Katrina James (Guest) · 03:02
Yeah, definitely. And I think, yes, there isn't one issue, but there's some common things. So if you come from a culture that is more community-based or more focused on family, And then navigating a culture such as Australia, which is more, more individual. You know, Australians question their boss, they make fun of their boss, like it's just a thing that we do in the culture. But if you come from a culture where like you never speak out of rank, you don't go to a manager, you would go to the, you know, team leader first and you only ever follow that chain of command, it can be really difficult. Um, because then in Australia it's like you don't really automatically get a new position, but if you go and ask and go and say, hey, why didn't I get that? I want to be doing this, then it will be taken on board. But if you've never experienced it, and not only experienced it, you've not seen your parents do it, like it's just not part of your culture, that becomes really tricky to navigate. And so issues like that is probably the most common. So it's more about how things are done because they're done differently doesn't make either of them better or worse way to do it. It's just a different way of doing it.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 04:18
Hmm. Wow. And so you help them understand an Australian point of view that they can refer to so that they can understand their new reality, their new context better.
Katrina James (Guest) · 04:30
Yes, exactly. The new context better and, and understanding, say for if your whole life, you know, you're told something was very rude, if you, you know, using the same example, if you were told it's very rude to question your boss, then even if you learn to do it, it can still feel really awful because you've been told your whole life that this thing is rude. And that is where I work with people as well. So I'm not really taking them through the process of how to talk to their boss. It's more looking at these underlying beliefs that stop you. Because if you hold a belief that that's rude, or if you hold a belief of I'll never get a promotion, then you're not going to do it. So reprogramming or reframing those beliefs— nothing changes, just the view of it changes, which then allows you to do what you need to do in this different context.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 05:24
And would you say that most of the migrants that you see experience this divide between the expectations that they have and the reality that is perhaps a bit different to the beliefs that they are having.
Katrina James (Guest) · 05:37
In general, yes, I would say yes, but I wouldn't say that every migrant experiences this issue around talking to their boss, but it could be a certain, a different type of issue. It could just be something like, oh, when you have, like, okay, here's a great example. When in Australia we say, like, are you having morning tea? So we say, but no one actually expects you to go have a cup of tea. They just, it's just a break basically. Right. And so I've had known of people who said to someone, said to them, oh, you're gonna take your tea break now. And they're like, well, I don't like tea, so I'm, I'm fine. I don't need to have a break. Right. You're like, fair enough. That makes sense. But by law, actually you have to have a break cuz that's how it works in Australia. We just happen to call it a tea break. Do you have to drink tea? No. Do you need to take a break? Yes.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 06:29
Okay. And you, you do work mostly with people who are active in the professional world, or do you also work with people who are retiring or are not perhaps working in Australia?
Katrina James (Guest) · 06:42
Yeah, mostly in the professional world. And, but I have also, uh, working with people who are navigating that change. From perhaps to retirement or perhaps to a different job type. So maybe going from full-time employment to part-time employment, whether that's because of their age or if that's because of what is suitable for their family now. So definitely all different stages. And like I said, it might not be until you're retiring that you actually have something come up for you that's a bit difficult because you've never experienced retirement before, you know, and you didn't see it from your parents. And you could have been in Australia for 25 years and navigated everything, but the retirement part might be quite tricky because again, it's a new thing. You've never seen it.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 07:31
As a migrant, why would it be more complicated? Is it because you are retiring and, um, you don't have your family with you if your family is in your home country? So you are having a bit of a What do I do with my life now?
Katrina James (Guest) · 07:45
Exactly. Yeah, that can definitely be something. It can also just— it can actually, um, maybe some things that you've kind of ignored before, now that you're actually seeing them. So it could be things like this connection with not just family, but perhaps connection with friends, friendship groups. And people can start to get concerned, like, what am I going to do with all of this time? And that friendship that I I actually meant to repair. I didn't do that, and now it's coming up for me. Now I'm actually having to think about this, or I'm actually having to think about the well-being of myself and my family now that I'm retired. It's a different context. And these are things actually people don't really expect them because they've never had to deal with them before. But when we move to a different stage of life, often things come up that we've just never considered before because we were able to push them off, we could distract ourselves. We could do, you know, something else. And so that's what it is. It's the changes. It's never just kind of like, oh, well, you'll experience this, you know, there's no guidebook of, okay, you're retiring now, this is what's going to happen. Unfortunately not. And it's the same with migration. One person's journey is completely different to, to somebody else's journey and experience. And, and they're all valid.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 09:01
Actually, on that, I wonder whether you, um, agree with the different phases of migration? I know that most researchers say that you have the honeymoon period, then you have the culture shock, the adjustment, and then adaptation. Do you see that with most of your clients, or some probably don't really fit that linear model?
Katrina James (Guest) · 09:24
Yeah, I think that word is a great word, linear. Do I see it? Yes. Does it go in that, you know, nice line? Yeah, absolutely not. And I think sometimes that the, these lineal stories of your experience, ABC, actually stop people from getting help because they think, well, I should be past this stage already. I'm past the, the homesickness stage. Why am I feeling like this? I can't reach out for help because how embarrassing. I should have been over that 2 years ago. Uh, it's not true. It's not true. So many different things can activate different feelings at any time for any of us, actually. It could be the weather. It could be, it could be a neighbor cooking something that you haven't smelt for a long time. And so that smell, you know, activates a feeling with us. There's so many different things that can just activate things and like without us really even meaning to. So things can happen at any time. So I don't know what the picture is. It's definitely not an arrow and it's not always a circle. It's probably more like a squiggle kind of thing, maybe. Yeah. Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 10:33
So what I hear you say is that basically you can feel like you have adapted in the country, but something may trigger you and then suddenly you feel like you are actually not integrated in the way you thought you were.
Katrina James (Guest) · 10:49
Exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 10:52
What are the common, um, events that, you know, usually make people feel like they don't belong anymore or they feel out of alignment with the country they are in?
Katrina James (Guest) · 11:04
Yeah, it could be many things, you know, it's not big things like it could be a birthday, turning a particular age, you know, could trigger some expectations that you didn't realize that you were holding thinking, well, I'm let's say I'm 40, I should know these things by now. It could be children, it could be parents, it could be so many different things, but it's often those big milestones that really can trigger a lot of things for us. And just back to that expectation of like, but I, I'm past this, I shouldn't be this anymore. And that can really bring up lots of things that you don't talk about. And, and another thing that can bring things up is um, talking to people back home, right? Because often people think like, oh, let me just, you know, I'll just tell them back home I'm having a hard time or things are not great or whatever. And, you know, of course the response varies, but it's always some version of, well, you, you decided to move to Australia, what are you complaining about? And it gets shut down very quickly. And you weren't actually complaining, you were just venting, but that leaves you in a really hard place because you can't tell people back home that, you know, for want of seeming like you're complaining. And also sometimes it's hard to tell colleagues or even new friends that you've made in Australia because there's a, there's a sense of like, oh, but you're so lucky to be here, and so you should not complain, or you should not say anything out of turn because you're so lucky to be here, even though that wasn't what you were doing. You're never saying, I don't want to be here. You can, you can be very thankful to be here and also have a bad day. Fine for those two things to exist.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 12:47
Actually, it's funny because this makes me think that many people seem to fantasize sometimes about the life you have in another country. It's something that I have realized when I came back to France and I discussed with some of my friends and the view they had of my life was a fantasy in a way. And I think they were projecting on maybe perhaps a desire that they would have had to live abroad and, and they have this idea of what it may be like. And, and I was trying to tell them that it was very hard at times and it had been a really difficult journey. But they really see, oh yeah, but you know, you are in Australia, it sounds exotic, it sounds like it's an amazing thing, and it is in so many ways, but I think that there is a distortion in the way they perceive your life.
Katrina James (Guest) · 13:38
Absolutely, you're absolutely correct. And I think even just the way, you know, the way Australia is portrayed, it is, it's a beautiful country, you know, but like, it rains here, you know, the cost of living is really expensive, and, you know, it's freezing in Sydney when it's only, it's 20 degrees and we've all got jumpers on, you know, but no one It's like if you pick up a brochure for Europe, right? It's all— the sun's always shining, even though, like, it's probably less likely to be shining than sunny. But we, we present ourselves in this great way. And all the story of migration is only a very, like, a small slice of the story, you know. Go abroad, you'll have the best time of your life, it'll be amazing. And, and so for me, and that's why I love having conversations like this, is just discussing the complexity. Not one thing is a single story, and it's exactly the same with migration. And it's really important to be able to discuss, because also your friends who are discussing that, it's almost like ranking who's got it harder or something. Yeah, you know, like, you're not trying to say that you're like, you can also have it hard too. Like, you— we can both go through hard things at the same time. There's no competition here. That wasn't even your reason for telling them that. Your reason was to try and get some support.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 14:59
Yeah. Uh, I guess it's also hard to be perfectly objective about the difficulties migrants may be facing in our own countries. Uh, it's funny, I was discussing with an Australian friend, um, who moved to live in Europe and he was telling me how hard it was for him to get a job and how it seemed that in this new country they valued who you knew more than your skills. And when he said that, he said, and it's not the case in Australia. And it made me think, oh my gosh, it's funny because I used to think the same way when I was looking for a job in human rights. I was like, I don't know anyone, so it's very hard for me to get a job. But I think it tells how subjective your experience is and how it's hard to be aware of your own privilege because when you have connections, you have family, friends, you speak the language, you understand the social codes, but it's taken for granted. You're not even aware you have them. And sometimes it makes you think about the country in a way that is not true. It's just your experience of it as a migrant. And it was probably the same in France or the same in Australia. You just didn't experience it in this way because you were in a different situation.
Katrina James (Guest) · 16:16
Yeah, absolutely. Not my experience either. I didn't migrate to Australia. I was born here. And so I fully understand that I do not comprehend every, you know, the people who I work with, I, I have not experienced what they have experienced, but I can let them have their experience. You know, if they tell me something, I don't get upset. Like their experience is their experience. It's not for me to judge and it's not for me to figure out. It's for me to say, hey, this is causing you some pain. So it doesn't matter if I could have navigated it by myself. It's hard for you, so you need some help. Like, you know, let's get that. And, and you're right, absolutely. It's like a fish in water, you know. You just don't even know you're in it. And someone was asking me actually just about banking the other day and I said, yeah, I guess, like, I feel like I don't know anything. But then we went on to have a conversation about it, and I thought, wow, look what I just know just because I grew up here, and I just have that knowledge of just knowing. And so that has to apply to everything else as well. We just learn from seeing things. I've seen my parents do things, I've watched the news, I've known so many things. So it doesn't matter. Immigration isn't about skills as such, it's difficult for everybody because it's a very personal, uh, cultural thing, which is just difficult regardless of what you have studied or the certificates that you have.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 17:48
So there is something I'm curious to know about because as a migrant myself, I've connected with so many migrants over the years and there is a question that has stayed with me. It's what makes an immigrant successful, and I use quotation marks when I say that. I've seen that some people are able to adapt and thrive in their new context, even if it's difficult, while some others, they really try very hard, but they don't seem to be able to adapt over the years. And some of them, when they can, they just give up and go home. What would you say play a role in setting these two groups apart?
Katrina James (Guest) · 18:30
Yeah, it's such a great question. And, and I wonder if it's actually more helpful to start with the definition, like when you're saying success, what even is that? Is that just someone who stayed here for a long time? Or is that—
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 18:42
I would say that in this context, success would be adapting, feeling integrated, feeling like you are valued and included, uh, in the new country. So that would be my definition of what successful immigrant is, but maybe, you know, there are so many ways. You. Successful is such a loaded word.
Katrina James (Guest) · 19:00
Yeah, and that's why I asked, because some people look at it as, you know, having earned a certain amount of money or, or bought a property or had a family, you know, like there's a lot of different marks of success. For me, the people who I've seen like successful and happy are actually walking that line between adapting with the new country but also bringing themselves their old country, like re-identifying who they are now in this context, but who they are, and also paying respect to the person who they brought with them, who got them here, and then redefining, okay, let's take a second and just see where am I going now.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 19:46
So it would be about integrating your old and new identity. Exactly.
Katrina James (Guest) · 19:53
Exactly. And sometimes swinging between the two and sometimes not getting it right, you know, sometimes not quite knowing. But the success I see is where people honor their own self and that they feel comfortable with that. And often where I see the friction, the other side of it, wanting to leave, wanting to go back, wanting to do something different, not wanting to, you know, be part of Australia anymore is when some things are rising that they really want to fight against. So it could be this feeling of a loss of identity. It could be a feeling of like, well, am I not French anymore? Because if I, you know, become Australian, what does this mean? And then trying to push against it. Well, I don't want to lose that. So I'm just going to stand firm in this and then becomes quite rigid. And hard to move around and hard to talk about. And so I seek success with people going a little bit more flow, kind of being okay with what happens and being okay with knowing that this is the decision that they've made now, and they'll always be who they are. But it's tough letting yourself be okay with it being tough. It is tough.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 21:11
But I was thinking as well, in the context of some people who are highly skilled in their countries, they feel like they've had, yeah, this identity. As example, they were a doctor or they were an engineer and they come here and they wash dishes and they have to have multiple jobs and no one gives them a chance. And it's really hard to think of who you are when you don't have all of these things that have identified you for so many years in your community.
Katrina James (Guest) · 21:40
And that, I think, that is, um, you asked me, not yet, but I know you've asked me before, like, what do I struggle with, or what have I found difficult? And this is the stuff that I actually find— I don't— it's not that I find it hard, I just find it like disheartening because it is like that. Like, yeah, that can happen. And I wouldn't want to just be like, oh, we'll just smile and like everything will be fine, or just think about it a different way, because that's not doing any service to someone's experience. That absolutely does happen. And the problem is not on the person, it's on the system. It really is on the system. You know, Australia likes to say that we want everyone to come here, but the, the visa process— we won't go down that path, but you know, that's not great as it is. But then even once you get here, then that's like there's, there's just nothing. There isn't support. There isn't somebody saying, hey, you know, you're feeling like this, maybe you should go have a chat with somebody, or let's see how we can help you here. Because, you know, it's easy for someone to say have a chat with your boss, but if they're the ones that are putting you on the crappy shifts, like they're not all of a sudden going to have the compassion to help you out.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 22:53
They may take advantage of you as well when you are a migrant. I know that my first job, when I arrived in Australia, I did not speak any English and I worked in a cafe for a week or two and the guy refused to pay me and he was doing that, like it was a turnover of young women who didn't speak English very well and that was a thing and that was my first lesson, okay, you know, like ask your money up front, you know.
Katrina James (Guest) · 23:19
Yeah, that's awful. Like what a lesson to be learning. I don't know how, like, oh, there's so many other lessons that we could be helping people to learn. Yeah, true. Yeah, because then you take that experience and then that's, that hardens you a little bit. And I don't know if that's been your experience, Em, but that's what happens. People have not just one but multiple experiences and each one hardens you a little bit. And that's where you do get to the point where you're going, I'm going home, or I'm going to a different country because I'm sick of being treated like this. You know, just like all migrants don't represent their countries that they're from, you know, these awful experiences also don't represent all of Australia. But if that's the only experience you have, then that's what you're gonna go from. It just feels like migrants, it's just an easy group to pick on. It's awful. And for me personally, I think if the country's gonna say how welcoming they are of migrants, then it can't just be a welcome to come to the country and we take your money. It has to go through the whole life cycle. So things like that, things like accommodation, like there really needs to be so many supports put in place and not even that, like when you're telling me about the cafe, like just other people who talk up, or where do you even get that education to say, what can you do?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 24:38
Yeah. And I know what to do, but at the time I just didn't want any trouble. And I think that there is this position when you are a migrant is that I don't want my visa to, uh, uh, yeah, you, you, you feel threatened in, uh, so many ways that you do not want to have the fight.
Katrina James (Guest) · 24:53
Absolutely. There's a huge power imbalance there, right? Because you're just always thinking, what about my visa? And that is, that for me, that makes these a particular group of people vulnerable because they don't have the same access to information or ability as someone who was born here. That's it. Simple. So of course there should be this information provided.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 25:14
There is something else that I am interested to know, uh, in the context of reframing the way migrants think about their reality, because I was wondering, how do you distinguish a belief that negatively distorts someone's perception of reality, which you can reframe, from a reality-driven belief or fear that is perfectly valid to have, which I assume you don't really want to reframe.
Katrina James (Guest) · 25:44
This is really interesting. Okay, so we're looking at like one belief that's driven from thought, and then I have my own view of it, and then the other one is actually from—
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 25:54
there's some evidence to say like this is actually pretty bad, like racism or discrimination.
Katrina James (Guest) · 25:59
Exactly. No, totally. I don't want to reframe that to be like, oh well, it's not a big deal, you know, which is what we've been doing in any white country for a really long time, right? Like, oh, it's not that much of a deal. You should be right. I don't want to reframe that, but however, what I want to reframe is people's experience of it and how you operate from that belief. So they've kind of both become similar in that way because everything is about how we end up operating as humans. And how we move forward. And so it's perfectly acceptable. And I think this, a big thing is that with a lot of us, a majority of us, and I know I've experienced this myself, is just being cut off from our own beliefs or just not believing our own self, right? So if you have an experience that you perceive as racism, you experience it as racism, then that's what it is. I'm not I'm not here to convince you that it was something else, or it wasn't as bad, or that it was only a microaggression, or, you know, like give it some easier language. No, it's absolutely what you experienced, and it's about using that as fuel to take action.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 27:12
Give me an example.
Katrina James (Guest) · 27:13
Yeah, so if it was, say, at the workplace and you experience this, so there's two actions that you can do. Well, one is the inaction. Where you kind of just make yourself feel like, oh, it's not that bad, or she's actually a really nice person, or she's never done this before. You know, all the stuff we start to do to justify things. Or perhaps you use it to go and, and become part of a different team, or to leave that job. And I know that, you know, all of that is not also reality either, because if you need a job, perhaps you're not going to complain about things. And so it's very, very difficult. And I think that's where some think like a professional like me or other counselors or a psychologist, many other, um, people in the caring industry can help you to get through that period of time because nothing ever keeps happening forever. Everything always goes through cycles. And so I think sometimes when it's very, very difficult is when you actually do need somebody else just to hold you, to help you get through that time. And to figure out what you actually want to do and what's going to work for you and your family. And if it becomes that you want to stay and you're going to stay there, perhaps you focus on the money instead. So you're no longer about focusing on this great company, a lovely company. Your focus literally becomes, I do this job because it pays me, and I'm going to do it until I find something else. You know, you create a plan that says, okay, I don't want to take action now, but let's see what's gonna, you know, 12 months, how much time do I need to get into something else? So that moves you forward. You don't always have to be challenging things because that's damn exhausting, and it's not always your responsibility, um, but you can be using it to help you move into where you want to be.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 29:05
Basically, you are trying not to reframe the discriminatory experience. As example, in the context of a job, if you have a client who arrives and says, look, I cannot get a job because I have a very thick foreign accent. And you know, every time I have an interview, they seem to be disturbed and they don't give me a chance. I guess you cannot reframe the reality of it being more difficult when you have an accent, but at the same time, perhaps you can say to them that it doesn't say anything about their ability to find a job as a non-native speaker. It doesn't tell you how capable and intelligent you are.
Katrina James (Guest) · 29:47
Absolutely. Exactly. So the situation doesn't have to change, but perhaps your view of it does. So if you have an accent, you have an accent. It's not gonna change tomorrow, right? But the way that you view it, if you think that that's the reason why you are not getting through job interviews, then that's how you're always going to operate in job interviews is you're in the back of your mind, you're just thinking, oh God, I hope they understand me. Oh, blah, blah, blah. And you're actually preparing for the accent rather than preparing for the job. Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 30:19
How do you make someone confident about that? Confident in the sense I own my accent and it's okay. You know, how do you kind of change the way people feel about their identity.
Katrina James (Guest) · 30:31
It's a big piece, and it can take time and experience. So part of my job also is having positive experiences with people. You know, I often have people tell me like, oh, no one understands me, I don't know anything, or, you know, I can't hold a conversation, after we've had a 45-minute conversation. So even just acknowledging that alone to say, well, actually, I didn't ask you to repeat yourself, you know, and it seems like, I don't know what's happening, you know, I've been able to understand you. Just that experience alone can really help people to be like, oh yeah, like maybe, maybe there's a little chance that my story isn't 100% true. Let's look for the parts where actually it's not proof, you know. If we think of times of, you know, maybe I don't like my appearance, okay. You know, what are the— has there ever been a time where you've looked in the mirror and you've said, hey, look pretty good today, right? And then we take that and we try and make them bigger. We try and repeat that experience over and over. What do you like? Oh, you like your knees? Great. Okay, what is it about that you like them? Can we move that up to your thighs? You know, it's the expansion of these small things and shifting your focus. It's in your focus again. And also, you don't have to go like from today— you're not going to go from I hate myself to I love myself in a 1-hour session with me. And maybe you don't, maybe you never get to I love myself, but maybe you get to I accept myself.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 32:12
I accept myself. Yeah. Oh my gosh, it's such a Yeah, a journey to get to acceptance, to self-acceptance fully, you know, I think for every one of us. I wonder whether you have a piece of advice or a word of wisdom that tends to have impact on your clients that you could, you know, share with us today.
Katrina James (Guest) · 32:36
Yeah, sure. Something I'd love to share with clients is something that they're not quite aware of is Um, if you actually look into the migration policy, which is a very dense document, so I would understand if nobody else has done that. Um, it actually lists some statistics about how much, uh, migrants bring into Australia. And I don't know, I have the exact stats here, but it's about 3 times more than somebody, a native person, somebody who was born here. And for me, that's what I share with people to say, do you know how much you are worth? Like the, the government actually outlines it. They put it down on paper. You are actually worth so much to this country. And so start operating like that. You know?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 33:22
Yeah.
Katrina James (Guest) · 33:22
Australia has a way of making people feel like, you know, they're so lucky to be here. Australia's in a negative, um, birth rate. If migrants don't come, like the population doesn't grow. That's how valuable somebody who migrates here is. Like, to me, that flips the script.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 33:43
Can you recommend, um, a book or a movie or a show or something that, you know, changed the way you think and feel about migration?
Katrina James (Guest) · 33:52
So I used to work as a photographer. Oh yeah, I actually think that has been the biggest thing. Because I've literally just learned to watch the world. Photography is like actually the most— it's a really amazing exercise in mindfulness.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 34:10
Tell me more.
Katrina James (Guest) · 34:10
You have to— well, you have to be there, you have to be ready for the shot, you have to be observing what's going on, whether it's in frame or out of frame. You really heighten that sense of knowing what's happening. And, and I have just got into so— I don't do photography anymore, but I would do lots of different events. And so I have been to places I would never ever get into, but because of the photography part— like, say for example, I've been to the New Zealand ambassador's, um, house for dinner, which I would never do. And it was only because I didn't really go there, I just— I was there as the photographer, right? And so being able to speak to different people or just see a different way of doing things. I really think that has been the biggest influence of things. And, and often I would turn up to events that had more photographers than guests, and so you would have to find different, a different perspective quite quickly. And that has been a huge help to me, which I really didn't realize that that's what I was practicing. I was really practicing finding a different perspective, you know, because there could be 10 photographers 10 different photos, all those photos are true, but they could all be completely different as well.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 35:28
Hmm. No, it's interesting that also the name of your practice is Reframing.
Katrina James (Guest) · 35:33
Yeah, it's a little bit of a nod.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 35:36
So now we are coming to an end and I have two slightly weird questions to ask. So the first one is, what does the word migrant evoke to you?
Katrina James (Guest) · 35:49
The word that's coming to mind, and I'll just go with that because I guess that's what's happening, is different. And I think maybe that could be part of the problem. For, well, for me, it comes up as this like foreign alien, you know. It's interesting, actually lived in Germany for a little while, and when you go to the— it's called the Ausländerbehörde, which actually means aliens office.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 36:16
Oh, wow. I don't know what it tells about the way they see, uh, foreigners.
Katrina James (Guest) · 36:20
It's a bit freaky.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 36:22
Yeah.
Katrina James (Guest) · 36:22
Government speak is very mismatched to people's experiences.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 36:28
But I guess difference is something that we all experience. So I think that difference shouldn't be something that we see as being part of a problem. It should be something we consider as a starting point for more rich interactions.
Katrina James (Guest) · 36:44
Absolutely. And again, to reference the photography, but actually in photography you need contrast. Without contrast, you can't focus. So you need to have black and white and shades of it. Otherwise there's nothing for the camera to focus on. If everything's one shade, it, it just can't find focus. And so there's something quite beautiful there in that to have a proper picture You need contrast.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 37:09
I love that. I love that. It's such a good metaphor. It's actually slightly poetic.
Katrina James (Guest) · 37:14
Something beautiful, isn't it? Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 37:17
Yeah.
Katrina James (Guest) · 37:17
Yeah. It really is.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 37:19
And the second weird question is, what does being Australian mean to you?
Katrina James (Guest) · 37:26
I knew you were gonna ask me this, so I've been thinking about it all day and I can't think of an answer. Honestly, I just don't even know. And maybe it's because, like, what we're talking about earlier is because I just have always experienced it, so I don't know. But there's nothing that makes me feel Australian other than having been born here and living here. Of course I'm Australian.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 37:53
Is there something that I'm like, this is Australian, this is, you know, but I struggle with that too, and that's why I asked the question because I wonder, you know, most migrants, they arrive here and they go through a process, I guess, of adaptation, but some of them consider themselves Australian once they acquire the citizenship. Some others never become citizens, but they think of themselves as Australian. So I really wonder when you acquired the Australianness. It's, it's hard.
Katrina James (Guest) · 38:26
It's really hard. It's really hard. I've really thought of this and I have also asked other friends as well, you know, like what, at what point do you feel Australian? And I haven't been able to get a clear answer on that.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 38:40
I think it's something we should spend more time thinking about, particularly in a conversation where you're like, oh, you're not Australian. What does it mean to be actually Australian? You know, tell me, you know.
Katrina James (Guest) · 38:52
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the politicians or the country itself doesn't really actually have a very clear identity. So that also makes it difficult.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 39:06
Yeah. I guess that we could keep thinking about those questions forever because I guess they are philosophical in nature. You know, there isn't a straight answer and everyone's answers are going to be different. Yeah. I wonder for those who are interested in the work that you do, Um, where can they find you? Where can they get in contact with you?
Katrina James (Guest) · 39:24
Yeah, they can look at my website, reframecounseling.com.au, um, on LinkedIn, Katrina James. Um, they're probably the two best places to look for me.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 39:36
Well, Katrina, thank you so much for sharing your insights, the work that you do with me and, and our audience. It was such a pleasure to interview you and, um, Yeah, I really hope that this episode is gonna make migrants who listen to us understand that they don't have to do this alone, that there are people like you who really care and who, you know, know the kind of problems that they are going through and who can support them through their journey.
Katrina James (Guest) · 40:06
Yeah, absolutely. Because there has to be more to life than just a nice country to live in. You know, we want more than that.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 40:14
Yeah, I'm sure that you can help them have that. Well, Katrina, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Katrina James (Guest) · 40:20
Thank you for having me.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 40:25
And that's a wrap for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening to the show. I hope you enjoyed my very first conversation with Katrina. If you did, please please like, follow, and rate the podcast. That would make a massive, massive difference to the production of the show. Next week, I will be interviewing Steve Coe, an immigrant who left his birthland as a child due to risks of persecution. I was your host, Emma Bellamy, and I cannot wait to bring you on another journey from there to here.
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