[Music] Welcome back to Kugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. In this episode, John Milum is joined by John Dwire. John's journey takes him from leaving school at 14 to leading global teams at top technology companies. Along the way, John followed his interests in craftsmanship, technology, and coaching. Embracing challenges as chances to learn, he overcame early struggles by building practical skills, and later focused on helping others grow. Today, John values creativity, community, and family, choosing to use his experience to support and mentor people through their own transformations. [Music] Welcome back to a Kugi Heroes uh recording and interview with um uh a man I would count as a as a friend, right? Even though we haven't spoken for quite some time and he has been off conquering the world, this man um is I think like there are so many aspects to explore today, right? So everything from uh leather work, musical theater to setting strategic direction at the with some of the most important uh organizations, you know, business organizations and national multinationals um in the world, right? So I don't know how to better define that as as you know some as like a man who lives in the blue mountains right that's that's you know but indeed such a qualified individual JD uh maybe you could clarify how you uh see yourself at this point in time uh for the audience uh John Dyier welcome to Kugi Hero. Thank you so much John good to see you again. I think I just found my marketing manager, man. I just uh I think you're you're the guy, right? So, I'm uh 62 year old husband and father of four amazing children and grandfather of now four amazing grandchildren as well. So, I'm officially old. Uh my eldest granddaughter just turned 14. Well, she's 14. I just can't It's not It's not acceptable, frankly, to have a 14-y old granddaughter. I think it's not not good. I'm a he him from a proud naman perspective and I live in the blue mountains as you said u on the lands of Darag and gar people. Um I love it here professionally since the early 80s I've been involved in the computing and technology industry I had 18 years at Microsoft and then I was at Nokia for a while and and uh and then more recently eight and a half years at Amazon Web Services. So the cloud part not the retail part. Um and those roles have also given me the good fortune to to live around the world. So I've lived in Europe, I've lived in the US, and I've lived most recently in Singapore for three years. And so incredible experiences from that perspective. Where you and I intersect is that, you know, when I came back to Australia back in 2014, having been away from 12 years. When I flew back from Germany, I took uh some time out of my career. And we could talk about why, but but ultimately, you know, I I I went through and and gained my certification as a master practitioner and trainer in neural linguistic programming uh and and a bunch of other frameworks like uh mbraining and eisk and and and and so forth. And and I'm currently right now studying to get my certification in LGBTQ plus uh coaching. Um and and that's important to me. That community is a very important community to me. I guess today is my first official day of being an unemployed man. I I made the decision just over a month ago that uh you know 47 years in in this kind of environment. It's been amazing. It's given me so much. But um but I want to dedicate time to me and I want to dedicate time to family. Um and so I've decided to step away. And right now I'm enjoying the luxury. I'm getting some Xbox time in and some reading time and some music time and so forth. Um, but I am postulating where I go from here and I have some plans, some cunning plans. Um, you mentioned musical theater. I got involved in musical theater back in 2014. I've been a a musician since I was about 17. But um, and uh, uh, my wife and I are both involved in community theater uh, which we love. Uh, she's just finished directing We Will Rock You Here in Penri and and uh, and so forth. and my youngest daughter is a professional now in the musical theater space down in Melbourne. And my second youngest daughter is also professional, a sound engineer that does uh shows around the place. So, it's become pretty important part of our lives as well. That's um an incredible uh catalog of of experiences and achievements, my friend. So, congratulations on on stepping away from that, right? because I imagine um there's uh there's a lot of who you of identity tied up in that that process right you you you've been in those positions particularly leader a leadership uh position in it for such a long time let's let's start at the deep end right how do you go through like right now you say day one this is a a process of reidentification of re of rebuilding how you see yourself and how you expect others to see you. Um, what's that like looking forward to? It's interesting, John. So, back in 2010, I was sitting in Dublin, uh, working for Microsoft at the time. Um, and and thinking about turning 50 on the horizon. That seems like so long ago now. Um, but I was postulating, you know, what what do I do with my life? You know, what am what am I frankly? What's my brand? And then what do I do? And and it was interesting because I've been involved in the technology space since 1983 uh in the early days of the PC computing space. And so that had been my identity. But there was a recognition back then that although I was in the in the technology industry, the thing that got me out of bed in the morning was people and uh working with people and helping them, you know, kind of fulfill um their dreams and overcome their phobias and and and really be the be all the potential that they have in them um and do that. And so I think you know if you looked at the comments that I got on LinkedIn when I announced that I had left so much of the commentary you saw there was about mentoring. It was kind of interesting. It wasn't about technology at all. And I think to me I that that I love that. That makes me feel so good. That tells me that what I decided back in 2010 was my purpose other people realize is my purpose as well. So that's that's the kind of history. But where I'm at at today couple of things on my mind. Yes, that hasn't changed and I see this as an opportunity for me to double down now uh on on that work um that I want to do with people and and I don't think about it like back in the 2014 era when you and I met you know the the the thing that we all had going on our minds was we want to be coaches and mentors and do all that sort of good stuff but we also want to monetize this. Um and for some of us there was a you know it was very concerning because to be able to be profitable in that space is bloody tough. Um frankly I think the people who are making money are the people who are teaching us to do this job as opposed to the people actually doing the job or or they've or they're walking a line I'm not prepared to walk. Right. So there's kind of correct you know which creates a barrier between monitoriization and myself in some ways. Right. 100%. So now I feel like I'm in a position where um I'm not thinking about how I have to monetize this. I'm actually thinking about I like really doing this for the reason that I want to do it, which is to make the world a better place and make people, you know, more successful, more happy and and and better. And so that that's a lot of what's going on in my mind right now is how do I do that? And part of that is my my podcast, which uh we can talk about at some point, but part of that is doubling down on that and helping and helping to share things with people. But I'm thinking in other areas in terms of what I can do around uh NGO and volunteer work and and the like. And so, you know, it's early days, but that's kind of where my head's at. But I don't think it's a as a significant rebranding exercise for me as perhaps it could have been because I think I already had gone through some of that that transformation, you know, back in 2010. Yeah. And and certainly put some building blocks in, right, you know, exploring that world. It it was a surprise to me, right, just to explore this this uh area a little bit more. Was a surprise to me uh when I uh to to see you, you know, like sort of step away from from, you know, the corporate world and dive into coaching, be very competent, be very um caring and and you know, wear that so so so profoundly, all right, and so upfront about your, you know, being a a good human, right? and being engaging through all of those and then like there was an offer you couldn't refuse. Um and that that that like you you sort of went back into that corporate world that surprised me. Um how did like was that a um a mind twister? Was that difficult to make to go back? You know to some extent uh the exercise back that started in 2014 was kind of twofold. One was uh again I recognized that I'd been in the industry for a long time and uh as I I'd just come back from being in living in four different countries around the space and really dedicating my life to to that industry and so I took that time out uh because I wanted time out. I wanted a break considered a sabbatical if you like. Um but I also I'd done the two correspondence courses which were good but I really wanted a practical hands-on experience. I really wanted the opportunity to to really double down on this. So when I first reached out to Glenn and the TLCC people, I was just going to do a diploma, you know, to get the to get the practical experience. But when I saw the opportunity to go into a full master P and trainer, uh, and I love training. I really love training people and and doing workshops and so forth, I was like, I I want to do this experience. And so I did that, but there was an element of of is this just bullshit? Am I really good at this or am I just kidding myself and am I listening to the marketing stuff? And so I wanted an opportunity to do a little bit of work in in terms of establishing a business around uh around coaching and particularly executive coaching or or or or leadership coaching. And I did that and and I got to a point where I was like, "Yeah, I actually the proof point's done. I can do this." And so to a degree I saw this as an exit strategy and I felt like I had proven to myself that the exit strategy had some validity to it. And with that under my belt, then I had an opportunity to go back into my own environment knowing that I had a plan long term. The other reality that goes with that, John, you know, let's be fully transparent here. Um, I still have kids. I still have a wife. I need to make sure that I provide for the family. Uh, I had two kids are about to go into college and and, you know, getting to that age where they were setting themselves up. And so there was an element of I want to get back to earning that level of income while while we navigate that. Now my youngest is 26 these days and so they're all pretty independent. So now I'm back in a position where where I can I can not have that concern so much. I can think about things differently. But that that was definitely a factor was that I just needed to make sure that I had an exit strategy but now I needed to sustain the family and do the right thing by the family. I love that uh the intentionality that you just you know described around m taking a step and understanding and gaining something off out of it and then realizing that that was you know that tick that box and you were now able to place that in your long-term plan. Was that is this like I'm I'm blown away by that level of of organizational intention, right? But which is probably more about me than you, but um did so impressive. Is that was that like is that when you look back at that you go, "Yeah, yeah, that really played out the way I I was I was thinking." It did play out the way I was hoping. I I I have to be honest with you, it's like most of my career hasn't been that intentional. I have to tell you that most of my career moves have been circumstantial and it's been interesting. I' I've had so many of and I've changed career a lot as you probably know but um so many of those career changes happen because I don't know uh I met somebody and they said something to me or you know an opportunity came up and I took it or something unfortunate happened and and that's I've got a podcast coming up that talks about tragedy turning into success. um something happened and it changed my life. But that one was somewhat intentional uh in the sense that I did I did consciously say I want to take this time out. I want to I want to explore like deeply explore this this career pathway. I want to validate that it's viable and then I want to go back to work effectively. And so that worked out well. I will admit the other thing and I just did a podcast episode on this topic recently. Um, what I did learn as well though is that getting back into employment, uh, particularly in this current environment is really hard. And I'm actually working with a couple of people right now who are are dealing with unemployment. And I I guess the lessons one of the lessons that I or two lessons I learned that I think are critical is one, it's so much harder to be uh to get employed when you're not employed. I don't know what it is, but I find that people who have got a job find it much easier to find their next job than people who haven't got a job. It's interesting. And so what I've said to people is get a job. Like even if it's driving buses or packing grocery bags, get a job because it's different. The other thing I've learned through that that I think is an important lesson is that throwing your CV into applications online blindly is ineffective and the most disheartening thing that you can do. it just doesn't work in this today's world. Um, and so the strong message I've given everybody is your network is everything. Find the job you want, find somebody that works with that company or somebody who knows somebody works with that company and get get referred cuz I tell you that's seriously good advice. I I I'd like to sort of, you know, uh, make that a feature, right, um, of of capturing insights and lessons, right, as we go, right, given your capacity. And that resonates greatly with me because I'm essentially unemployable, right? Being o, you know, over 60 and and um you know, with a employment gap and you know, no noticeable qualifications, right? Um no, like apparently I'm useless to everybody, right? I I don't think anybody's useless to anybody. I I think that's an interesting thing, right? So again, you know, uh not to promote my own podcast, that's not the point. But but the point is I just talked about this recently and that is that we all have strengths. Every single one of us has strengths and and has has cap capabilities that are of value to a person. Often we don't know what they are. Um even ourselves, we don't know what our strengths really are. And so the exercises that I that I work with people when I'm career coaching are around discovering those things. And there's there's a couple of frameworks that I use um to to help with that. One of them is my own and then there's a couple of others. I like icky guy. I think icky is is is my mission right now is to find my next icky guy. But but I think understanding that the intersection between, you know, um what you love, what you're good at, what the world needs, what you get can get paid for. I think that's that's a really interesting thing. Um, but I think what the conversation I have with a lot of people is tell me about the a time in your life and I don't care whether it's at school, whether it's at home, whether it's at work, but tell me about a time in your life where you were very successful, where you felt like you were on top of your game, when you felt like people turned to you for advice, um, and and that you were in flow. that is that your day would pass and you'd look at your watch and go, I can't believe my day is over. It's flown so quickly. And so understand those times when when all of those things were working the way they should work, but then peel the onion and and explore what were the strengths, what were the capabilities within you that that allowed you to do that. And so to do that, I normally the conversation is tell me about the role. Great. Now let's go to the next level. What did you do on a daily basis? What were the tasks you were performing and which of those tasks did you get excited about? Which of the things that you felt like this is cool? And then to do those tasks, what skills and strengths and things did you use? And if you can identify those, history is the greatest predictor of of future success. So if I can find out what it is in terms of those innate attributes that are in a person that made them successful at whatever they were doing, then I can start to look at what what roles out there include those that would enable them to be successful. And the inverse of that I have as well, which is tell me about those times when you hated going to work or you hit the snooze button or or the day felt like it went for 27 hours or whatever. So I can work out those areas. But that's for a lot of people that's the key, right? is to work out not not the job title cuz that's not going to do it for you. Work out what it is the in terms of activities and skills that make you successful and then look at ways that you can leverage those to find the right role. Yeah, that's that's gold. Alongside that, right, how do you then like you have always struck me as someone who has lived um with that, you know, with values with a code, right? Um and yet you've operated in uh with some of the most sort of soulless corporate entities on the planet, right? How you know there's all there's a a gap between the values they um want want you to wear like a cloak when you walk through the door and your own personal values. There's a man I know who knows his values. How did you resolve that dissonance? I think within your world um you can you can act with your values. I think that reality is that within my scope within my world I can I can operate with my values. And again, I think you know what gives me so much comfort about the way I've left the organization I've just left is the feedback I've had from so many people from across the the world around those values around those values of compassion and and encouragement and support and integrity and so forth. So I I I think you can still live your values uh within within your scope. And I think, you know, I I know when you and I were working together through our coaching experiences, we talked about things like the sphere of influence and the sphere of control, you know, and and there's an element for the sake of sanity where you just have to acknowledge there are things that are outside of my control. there are things that that I find distasteful or don't align with my values or whatever. But if I don't have the ability to influence those, then I'm I'm not going to spend a lot of cycles on that. I think it can be quite a distraction to do that. What I will try to identify is where can I have control and do the right thing in that space and where can I influence and where can I do the right thing in that space. And so, you know, it's fair to say that it with my employers, those employers that you that you mentioned, um, I haven't always been aligned with the leadership and they haven't always been happy about the way that I've operated either, by the way, because I haven't been aligned with the leadership. Um, but but I am I do try to be true to my values. Um, and and as I said, within my scope, I've tried to act in such a way that is congruent with the person that I am. I think that's um you're touching maybe on one of the great um modern dilemmas right in many ways men are struggling to redefine how it is to be a bloke right and and what you know what is our you know our reason etra you know the you know how do we you know what what what's our reason for keep going you know and finding a way to navigate that sort of gray area between values and and and and and practical considerations making decisions based on that is is a tough place. So h how how do you feel like almost now you're transitioning because of values like to spend more time with family and so on. How do you feel men should should approach th that dilemma? It's a great question and it it is a dichotomy today, right? In a sense that um you know I I think when we were in our early years you know the the definition of men and women seemed very straightforward. We know that the the spectrum existed but it wasn't talked about. Um and so you know again I I'll talk about the reason for this in a minute. Um, but but you know, in in my day, I hate that term, in my day, um, you know, you had women and men and then you had sissies and you had tomboys and that was kind of the spectrum. That was pretty much it. That's where it ended. Um, obviously the world is like so much different from that right now. And a as a father of a transgender daughter, uh I went through uh we went through, I should be fair, we went through an incredible learning journey, uh that again started back in around the 2014 era as as my daughter first of all let us know that she was transgender and then we began the the the journey of transition for her. And I, you know, I I've got to say, um, I'm so I'm so appreciative of where she is today. Um, and and how her life is today. But absolutely, this was an incredibly challenging time because all of my paradigms around my children were challenged at that point in time. and and I effectively uh exper as many other parents have experienced I went through this this experience of effectively losing a son and and gaining a daughter and there's a there's a definite sense at the time of loss of of a loss in the family of that person that I knew for 18 years suddenly not being there a different person. Um, so what I've I've I've learned so much during that period and and it's been an incredible journey for me and it's not just about transgender, it's about it's about diversity in all its forms. Um, so maybe to add a little bit more color to that, at the time when this this journey began, uh, I was at Amazon and Amazon has affinity groups. have affinity groups around, you know, Latinos and Asians and the black community and and people with disabilities and so forth. And they have an affinity group called Glam Amazon uh which is targeted or supporting the LGBTQIA plus uh community. I reached out to them uh at the beginning of this journey and said, "I'm an old guy. I know nothing about this. I'm completely unprepared for this journey. Help me out." Um and they were uh simply amazing in terms of a community that that that rallied around me and supported me through that journey to the extent that I ended up joining their board uh and and I was a part of Glam Amazon in Australia uh and New Zealand and then when I moved to Singapore I joined the Glam Amazon team there and when I came back to Australia I joined them again. um they they did tremendous work but but so many of the um what's the word I'm looking for the normalities that I had instilled in my brain um were challenged during that period and I had to completely rethink those now it goes much further than that and I'll give you another example that really that really always sticks in my head I lived in Ireland for three years fantastic three years um and uh uh I out walk. I was walking towards a cafe uh and there was a family of four mom, dad, two kids walking towards the same cafe. They were clearly of of Chinese origin to look at. Um and so, you know, I did what you do. Um I had made some assumptions correct completely, you know, categorize those people in my mind and so forth. And we walked into the store at the same time. The father stepped forward to place his order and spoke with the most gorgeous, authentically perfect Irish lil that you could hear. And my mind went and so I tell that story because I think, you know, beyond beyond gender, beyond all the different, you know, attributes we think about, you know, we we're all on a we're all a spectrum, right? The reality is that we the the human mind wants to put things in nice tidy little buck buckets. Um but that isn't how the world is at all. And so the whole notion around diversity fascinates me and that's that's something that keeps me going. So again my my most recent role at Amazon um I managed 14 countries across Asia Pacific, Japan, China, Middle East and Africa. Um, I had the opportunity to work with all of those cultures. Um, and every day working with those amazing people, and I really did. I had the most incredible team across the region. Um, I was challenged in terms of cultural knowledge, religious knowledge, history, and so forth. And so, I think I I I actually think differently these days. Every time I come up with a fact, the first thing I do is challenge that fact. The first thing I do, I'm curious about well, you know, hang on a minute is how do I know that? Like why do I know that? And even if I spin it right now in terms of what's happening in the Middle East and particularly Israel and Gaza, and I don't want to get political, but we have a we have a story we tell ourselves about that region and about the history of that region, but I'm learning that story is not right. It's just not accurate. And so I I just I encourage myself and I encourage others. Everything that you think or you're being told is a fact. Question it. There has to be like it's amazing that you you share that such such ins in insight and uh from your experience. Of course you're asking a lot of us, right? because um you know like you not that you've demanded anything of course but just that your your um your description invites me to you know say hey I can do that too you like I can I can embrace diversity and the trouble the some of the challenges right like I you and I probably have a similar sort of upbringing from me from understanding your background and it was not an up that an upbringing that invited us to question things around masculinity or inclusion or community. Right? So I I find uh while the heart sometimes is willing uh my education and my capacity to to to understand diversion is is challenged and I'm to be honest I've been I've felt rejected at times because um the community uh is quite cautious right as you'd imagine right from being um you know the subject of so much you know misunderstanding understanding and and ill will. So, uh I found it very difficult sometimes to ask how I should interact without being offend offensive or having someone like can you explain what words work for me? And I know the question sometimes just insults them because you know it's obvious but unfortunately not to me. I really can so relate to what you just said and and a lot of what you just described I'm going to suggest is actually in your head. It's not real. So I talked about when I joined the Glam Amazon organization. So here I am joining an LGBTQIA+ organization as the one cisgender, you know, old guy. You were the token. I was the token. And they, you know, and and I and I did it with a purpose. I did it with a purpose because I wanted to learn stuff. But I I got to tell you that first kind of year I was part of that committee, I I constantly was on edge about what was I was I behaving okay, was I saying things that were stupid and whatever. But you know, um they never treated me that way, but I was having that conversation myself all the time. And and I sat down with somebody towards the end of that period and actually opportunity came to kind of have a cander conversation about it and there was no inkling of that whatsoever. They were just appreciative that I was willing to step out of my comfort zone and go into their world and be both receptive but also an ally, an active ally on their behalf. And so um I thought I was the ugly cousin and they didn't see me that way at all. they saw me as the person who stood out. Um, I think that's true in many cases, you know, and I think uh it is tough, you know. I I I think at times I I think the way that men and women interact with each other is is as you had alluded to earlier is incredibly challenging today. And I watch a lot of the conversations going on on social media. I can't help myself. Um I wish I could some days. Um and I do I I see it seems quite disingenuous. And I can remember being bered for opening a door for a woman one day in terms of being demeaning cuz I opened a door. But I've I've reached the point where um again I I I I kind of want to live my values and I feel like as long as I'm I'm living good values, as long as I'm living the right values, yes, there'll be times when somebody takes offense with something I do and so forth. Um but I but I'm kind of not going to define myself based on that. I'm going to define myself based on what I know to be the right thing to do. And so I am an ally. I wear a big ally badge where I when I'm out. Um, and I'm not just an ally for the LGBTQI community. I'm an ally for people with disabilities and an ally for women and an ally. You know, I see myself as somebody who and and and I see allies not just quietly saying I support these people. I think it is visibly showing whether it's badges or the color of your shirt or whatever it happens to be. It's putting a message out there that says I'm standing up and I'm not afraid to stand up. And in my experience, most of the time people will respect and appreciate the fact that you have the courage to do that. I love um you you you gave us your pronouns earlier which is you know a symbolic gesture right of allyship or understanding of the concerns but like a lot of people go you know you know it's woke nonsense I do not understand that personally but I'd be interested what what what is the power of you sharing say your pronouns right look I let me be honest with you again I I told you when we started this this journey at home back in 2014. I thought the same way. I mean, this this pronoun thing is bullshit. Why am I having to do this right now? And pronouns were were a massive issue between my daughter and I. Like, it's such a huge issue uh when we got them wrong. And and we struggled. We had a person in our family that we had known as he him for 18 years. Like, you know, that's embedded after 18 years and suddenly had to change that. And by the way, it wasn't one change either. At one point it was they them and then it became she her and so you know as she was discovering herself we needed to adapt to that. And so I did I there was a certainly a period of time where I'm like this is this is bullshit and I'm not I'm not playing this game. But but as I learned and the more I learned I learned just how um triggering um it is to to them when it affects them negatively. And and frankly, I think the lesson for me is I don't need to understand your paradigm. That's not your problem that I need to understand your paradigm. All I need to understand is that what I'm doing um with you is either harming you or empowering you. And and if I know that whether it's pronouns, whether it's how I open a door, whe whatever it is I'm doing, if I can tell the difference between when I'm um making you feel good or making you feel bad, Yeah. then I should do the thing that makes you feel good. If it's the effort of learning a freaking par a pronoun, then it's worth the effort to do the right thing. Yeah. It's that's beautiful. What pops up in my head though as a father is it must you know because uh um your kids choose their life and you hope to prepare them. There's not much you can do but you do your best at protecting and offering them a leg up. But that choice, that choice to follow um something in internal, right, despite the difficulties that that will represent in the community must be a very that must like it must be a very hard place for a father to sit and accept. It is the scariest thing that that I think you go through as a parent. Certainly was for me. And and there's a couple of inflection points for me that that that really stand out. Um there was like when then when when the decision was made that she would have the the gender affirming surgery and she was pedal to the metal and and that was because she was dealing with you know the dysphoria that the the anxiety that goes with with her body. Uh I I was so frightened and and you know the like the conversation that we had more than once was you know are you sure what happens on the other side of this if it wasn't the right move you know um that was tough and there were some really tough and brutal conversations that went with that. The moment that stands out the most for me because like what is the definition of of success as a parent? For me, uh, the definition successive parent is that my kids are okay. And okay means, you know, they have a livelihood, they have a roof over their heads, they have connection, they have love, and they have purpose. If I've achieved like if they've achieved that, not me, if I if they've achieved that, then I've done the right thing foundationally as a parent, and I can rest at night knowing that they're okay. Yeah. Um, and that was always the fear when I sat down and had the conversation with my daughter at the time. It's like, I just want to make sure that you're going to be okay at the back end of this. And you know, when you recognize that the suicide rate is nine times the rate uh in the transgender community, it's it's a frightening thing as a parent. The most remarkable moment was I was driving her to her school formal. Um, and my beautiful sister had made this incredible dress for her. U, my wife had organized the hair and the makeup and so forth. But this was at the beginning of her transformation. And so for me, what I saw was, you know, a person who had been my son dolled up beautifully but still looking like my son in a dress with, you know, hair done and so forth. arriving in the forum to the to the the formal absolutely freaking out. Are they going to accept her? Are they going to laugh at her? Is it going to be a negative experience? And you can I could see you can picture how I'm feeling right now. So, we arrive at this thing. She hops out of the car and she is immediately embraced by the kids, by the other parents. They're taking photographs with her. They made I I I freaking tear up every time I tell this story. Um uh she was so embraced as the person that she was then. Um and at that point when I drove away I'm like she's okay. She's going to be okay. And then roll that forward to today. Um she's incredible. Uh she's uh a done a bachelor of sound engineering. She's now a resident sound engineer at the or basically resident at the at the Hayes Theater in Dling. She's just done her first gig at the opera house. Um she's very good at what she does. They love her. Um and and she's so together in herself. And so uh if I look at the person at the beginning of the journey and the anxiety and the discomfort that she was going through and where she is today, you know, I have to suck it up. I was wrong, right? I was wrong on so many levels, John. Uh and and so you know although that's only one thing it it's it question it makes me question all the times I thought I was right before. It's incredible uh story and example. Thank you man. Um I would I would touch on coaching a little bit here because that's something we both love for men in your position right and like I did you know picture exactly that you know the dilemma out of love came pain and a desire to control outcomes and as a man I'm standing there saying I know best I want to protect you and this is you have to fit within my framework. Um and that and we're encouraged right like as men we're often we're trained that way from very early days to you know that and yet you know the biggest that gift you gave your your your child to explore who they are right identity become u safe enough to explore and expand and develop their own identity I as a coach I believe those two things are foundational identity and safety. The safety to be who you are and and be where you are and then understand uh how you look forward to who you want to be and where you want to be, right? So, how do we encourage men uh you know the the population that seems so hellbent on not allowing that level of diversity to explore who their own identity, not to not have the safety to do that. The distinction we always made about coaching from mentoring is an important distinction, right? Um, you know, when when you mentor somebody, typically you are a subject matter expert in something and you're providing kind of that. But as a coach, um, your job is not to impart knowledge. It's actually to um uncover knowledge. It's it's actually to use questioning and exploration that they do that your that your client, customer, partner, whatever you want does in terms of their own discovery. And I think that's the distinction is that we all have incredible wisdom within us. We all have, you know, all of the experiences of our lives and the perspectives and so forth. And unfortunately, you know, I think we lock a lot of that away because of because the information we're given or the way or our thinking patterns and so forth. And what coaching does is it is it peels those that the kind of protections away from that and allows people to go through self-discovery. And so I the way I look at that myself and if I impart this back to the scenario I just described for you, I wasn't coaching at all. I wasn't coaching. I was I was applying my own paradigm to somebody else, my own values and and so forth to somebody else. And so I I think we need to catch ourselves doing that and stop doing that and instead be curious. And curiosity like my one of my favorite words in English language is curiosity. Um I I love it and I love it in all instances. If I see somebody behaving badly or somebody doing something stupid, I used to get angry about it. Yeah. And now I just get curious like why what's going on for that person? You know, what were the circumstances got there? So I think it's the same, John. I think that what we've got to encourage men to do and and people in general to do is to be authentically curious about what what a person's paradigm is, what their environment is, what their history is, and so forth. Um, this goes back too as well to how we judge different cultures and how we judge different countries and so forth. And I had the good fortune to spend quite a lot of time in China in my previous role. And I actually love China. I love China as a as a country. I love China as a culture. And my goodness, I'm in love with the food, the authentic Chinese food as well. Um, but the thing that struck me in a big way, I'm watching all of the the chatter on on our US press and and all the the rhetoric that we've been dealing with for so long, pretty much since the end of the Second World War, and I'm sitting in Beijing. I've just walked f through a a shopping mall that frankly could have been a shopping mall here in Sydney or in in London or whatever. A fairly typical shopping store with with shopping mall with all the stores that you recognize. I was sitting in KFC. One of my fun things to do everywhere I go is I try KFC. And by the way, baseline of your experience, let's go find a KFC and and start from there. And by the way, for the record, South Korea has the best KFC in the world. All right. Wow. The Koreans do great chicken. Anyway, so I'm sitting in this in this um uh KFC in Beijing and uh and I look over here and there's a bunch of teenagers uh uh and there's over here's a family and and whatever. And I'm like, this could be KFC literally anywhere on on the planet. Like this people have the same values, they have the same needs, they want the same things fundamentally. I mean, yes, there are differences in terms of of cultures and so forth, but generally speaking, you know, people just want to be uh connected and and and fed and housed and they want love and they want encouragement and nurturing and so forth. And so again, I'm now I just I'm just like curious like why is it different when I'm in Indonesia? Why is it different when I'm in California? What like what's going on for that? And then when I see somebody do something like again I said told you I was berated for opening a door for a woman um some years ago. My question is like what was her life experience that led her to feel that way? And so that I think curiosity is the key to it all. I I I agree completely. I I love I I've been known to say curiosity is the kryptonite of judgment. Right. So yeah. Yeah. So that's brilliant insight. As you talk about diversity, I just I'm I'm fascinated how you got to that that understanding, right? Because um if we if we do have like do we have the capacity to accept differences and why is it so hard for so many uh uh communities to invite difference and diversity that you know into their world? What what what's the barrier? I think a couple of things. We we know um instinctually people like to be with people who are like them. Yeah. Um and that's you know that's tribal that goes back to primitive man is that is that we like to be with people who have who look the same have shared values and so forth and we are naturally suspicious of people who have different values who look different and so forth and we again I think this is this is you know uh a protection mechanism that exists in us uh probably from a a breeding and and survival perspective right back to that. So I think we have to acknowledge the fact that those unconscious biases do exist and there's no magic recipe that's going to automatically turn those off. But we can catch ourselves. Uh the I think the key for me is I have had such a good fortune to live around the world and to manage teams around the world and I I actually think if you want to cure racism, make people travel. Uh because what I've learned everywhere I've gone is that people are good. Like on the whole people are good. And you know I I still vividly remember my first time in India back in 2003. I landed at Haidabbad airport about 3:00 in the morning and stepped out of the airport into a sea of people and noise and and chaos and and people begging and and people wanting me to take their car and and I was so freaked out by the time I got to the hotel. Um I was like, "What am I doing here? This is this is insane." Yeah. Um John, I love India. I'll go back to India anytime at all. Um because uh you know once the I'd gotten through that first experience and I gotten to work with with people and um and I've had again a good fortune in the last three roles I've had to have that opportunity. Um that in my experience they're some of the most generous um you know uh loving principal people I've worked with. The more that you immerse yourself in diversity, the more that you're willing to step out of your comfort zone, and you don't have to travel the world to do that, the more the more you start to understand that that's not a threat to you. Um, it's actually an enrichment. probably the I'll just to finish this off probably the most wonderful experience I had I've been going to Singapore for 30 years but to live there for three years uh Singapore has pulled off integration in a way that I've not seen in any other country and they did it um with such a deliberate uh approach they from the very it's only a very new country right Singapore is about 70 years old um from the very beginning of that country, the leadership made a very conscious decision that they would be a diverse and inclusive society. Um, and they've nailed it in in in such an incredible way. And and the way that I've always described it is in India, they celebrate all of the religious festivals and everybody's welcome. Yeah. Wow. like like Ramadan, Diwali, you know, Chinese New Year, Christmas, um they they celebrate all those festivals, but but it's not for this group or for this group. Everybody gets involved and everybody participates. And of course, often we look down at at um you know, people who are you are able to include more people as you know, as confusing or weak, right? But it it perhaps might be the very diff the opposite, right? It's enrichment. It's totally enrichment, right? And it's and it's such a good experience to to to learn another story or another another facet of a culture. But I'm a foodie. I think like you are, right? I love my food. Um and what gave that away? Let's say I think you and I are both comfortably fed. Um uh you know the again the thing for me is that that to have the experience of trying all the different cuisines but also understanding the history of those cuisines is it again a curiosity. It's fascinating. You know one of the things that the national dish almost of of Singapore is a thing called chicken. And it's such a basic uh basic recipe of of chicken that's poached in some spices and herbs with the rice and a couple of slices of cucumber. And it's often served wrapped up in paper. And I got to tell you, John, it's the best chicken I've ever had anywhere. But the history of high chicken, for instance, is that when the Hyanese populations immigrated into Singapore, they were the poorest people um and they needed to feed feed themselves with something that was very low cost. And so they invented this chicken dish that they could make very cheaply. Um, and that's what sustained them and it's become a national dish. And I I love the lesson in that the you know the you know some basic things you know when we fall back to that when you know when you you know you get rid of all the the the decoration and stuff sometimes you find the real sustenance right. So yeah. Well, and there's nothing like sitting there on the ground with a piece of like the unwrapping the paper and having this steaming chicken and rice with a bit of cucumber and eating it. It's fantastic. Um it's like the old fish and chip days in the newspaper with the vinegar and it totally is the same. Yeah, it's it's awesome. Yeah, I love that. as I get a little bit older and a little bit more capable of sitting in uh in uh a lack of awareness, right? You know, like you know, I don't have to know everything in front of me uh to in to some extent. Um I look around and I see diversity the the fundamental unit of diversity is one, right? you like when you you know and it's when you start to treat individuals based on their own um characteristics, strengths, you know, flaws, pecadillos and and and opportunities, right? You start to accept people directly regardless of you know how they you know you know claim their identity or you know how they present to the world. I wonder is it possible right that we can you know you know become an organiz a community that that you know judges someone on the character of their being rather than the you know the the color of their skin or I think it's a noble aspiration. I really do. I think it's very difficult. Um I'm going to I'm going to use a Kath Bell uh uh comment uh from base camp actually. So, the very beginning of my master pract journey with Kath and and and Lauren, um Katherine's comment was that people are magnificent. And I've never forgotten um that. In fact, every time I see her, we joke about the fact, but but she said people are magnificent. Um and part of the the meaning behind that, which we elaborated on in that base camp, was they're magnificent because of their uniqueness. They're magnificent because of their of their unique perspectives and their paradigms and their skills and their life's experiences and and the strengths and and the pains and the the scars and all those sorts of things. It's those it's those unique attributes of every single person on the planet that makes them a magnificent part of the organism that's the human race. And I that I love that. I think that's that would be if we could see people in that lens. I think we would be so much better as a race. But the the I think the challenge we have and frankly social media is not helping is that we are encouraged to put people into titles into categories. We're encouraged to to call them, you know, a particular term or a particular phrase or a particular whatever. And I and I think we like to dumb things down like that we are being encouraged to dumb things down that I can say that know that's a that's a um I'm getting myself in trouble here that's an oriental person which is the worst possible term that you can use but it's that it's that notion of just saying that person fits into that bucket. Um and then the minute you do that you apply naturally all the stereotypes that go with that. I wanted to to go back and ask a little a couple of questions around you, right? You know, like um the whole like the way you described in your very first JD journal, which is the podcast for for the listeners out there, your podcast is JD Journal and it's it's a it's a kind of um eclectic, you know, journey through many subjects, mate. And uh you know business obviously is a is a very uh commercial concerns and and and the development of skills in that area is a an important stream for you. But also like in your very first one you told us the JD story. And one thing I noted was the affection in your voice when you talked about your early days like creating you working with leather for instance. Right. You were like you were you were just a are you do you still love that like like clearly something where you know I think you mentioned there was a a problem with management or something right as a rebellious young man with a mind of his own right but the actual act of creation you seem to have just a real affection for it to summarize the the story that you're telling is that um I hated school wasn't working out for me and uh mom and I was just mom and I at that point in time. We were pretty struggling as well. And so at the age of 14 and nine months, the literally the day that I could legally leave school in Australia, uh I I started an apprenticeship as a saddle maker or a clicker as the term was called back in those days. Um I've never made a saddle to be honest, but it was the it was the craft of hand cutting, shaping, and stitching leather goods. And I did a lot of uh cases and and if you've ever been to the races and the white bookie bags, I made those and and so forth. Um and so I did love it. I did it for eight years. I I I loved working with with the my hands and working with the leather and and and canvas and and stitching and and so forth. I really I really did love that. And it was interesting because uh during that time I got I was I was got involved in in games consoles actually Commodore 64 and a Vic 20 actually before that if you remember those. Yes. Um and I and I was playing games of course but I was also learning to write basic code and and I'd written a database that recorded information on an audio cassette. It was the most ridiculous thing. But I um but I was fascinated by it, you know, and so uh I showed it to the management at the factory and in the end they said, "Well, you're going to computerize the factory." And so this dropout kid who had no skills at all in terms of bookkeeping or business or whatever was suddenly creating um uh a full, you know, or implementing a full accounting package and payroll package and and running the books for this company. And so I would during the day I would work in the factory floor doing my job and then in the afternoons and often on the weekends I'd be in there doing the books. Um and that's that's kind of what was the transition of my of my career actually was interesting. But um but I do love crafts. I love I love working my hands. And in fact um one of the aspirations I have now that I'm somewhat semi-retired is maybe to go back and work with leather. But I also I like timber work. I one of the things that I did with musical theater is I love creating props. Uh and so I I did a show uh some years ago all about the first world war and using MDF I created all the guns and all the cameras and and whatever just handcrafting timber and and crap. So I I I do want to get back to it. In fact, I've bought all the kit to do whittling. I want to sit down and learn how to do whittling and and and and do that. Yeah. how very exciting your retirement semi-retirement sounds, right? It's a huge uh at 14 leaving school that's a massive issue, right? And of course, probably not even possible these days, right? So, you know, and certainly your career is a unicorn today, right? like going into, you know, senior management and executive corporate world and so on from a dropout perhaps not even possible today. That's my thought. John, my career is ridiculous. Uh it it it let's be honest, my career is ridiculous and and and I talked about imposter syndrome and I I I I promise you that like the fact that I have no qualifications or university degrees or or whatever uh it's been a weight that I've carried all my life is the reality is I will sit in meetings with people who are MBAs and doctors and whatever and I'm a dropout saddle maker. Um and uh and and I did I question myself constantly, you know. Uh but but at the end of the day, you know, I I think people value what you deliver, what you get done. Um and and I I use this term a lot, but I I use it because I genuinely believe it. And that is that any success that I've had has been on the shoulders of incredible people. It really has been on their shoulders. And what my strength is is the ability to get those people motivated and excited about what they do and to really support them. And so I think if you in in all the different careers that I've had, I think that's the common thing is that what am I good at? I'm good at bringing people together and getting them excited about something and then getting out of their way uh and letting them do great stuff. It's amazing. Uh of course the creativity, right? um the people person you know like regardless of all the skills you possess the hand eye coordination you know the con the ability to connect with someone is perhaps the greatest strength you I think it is I really is and and and to positively influence them right you know again going back to the conversation we had about coaching versus mentoring I I think what what I've tried to be good at and I think it's been okay it's been been good successful is to is to help people discover their own strengths and execute their own strengths and have the confidence to do that. Um, and and I'm going to spend some time on that in the future on my own podcast because I've I've always been fascinated. There've been a few situations in my career, quite a few actually situations in my career where I've taken on a new team and and whoever's been running that team or whoever my manager is has said, "Oh, this person's a right off. Just manage them out." Yeah. And the minute the minute somebody says that to me, it's like, you just threw down the gauntlet. I don't manage people out. Um, and I've had some uh had some tremendous successes with people who other leaders had written off and it goes back to I believe I I do believe that everybody can be successful in the right circumstances with the right support. Um, and so I I get excited I go back to curiosity. I get excited about the opportunity of taking somebody who's been classified as a complete disaster and working out, you know, why are they where they are and what would have to be different uh for them not to be that way. You remember the old miracle question, right? Yeah. The which I love pulling out every now and then, right? Just I I love the miracle question. And I think this is a classic example of where like if if tomorrow you woke up and that person was incredibly successful, how would you know they had changed? Like what would be the differences that you would see? And then and then as a leader I think your job is to um in know is to enable and inspire and nurture those changes. Massive amounts of uh areas to explore further there at some point. So, um I I did want to ask a question, right? Because fundamentally, um well, actually just perhaps maybe we we finish with two questions if that's okay, man. Um the first is um you talked about how you and your mom and you were 14 and like it was tough, right? And you were making decisions that were heading off. You you didn't get on with school and all of that stuff. And now, you know, you are from, you know, tracking your your experiences, you're so uh so connected and and supportive of your kids and employees in many ways acting as a sort of surrogate sort of work father. Is that is that like um you know the process? Is that the the treasure out of a very tough start? Maybe it is. Maybe it is. Maybe it's that ability to relate to people who are going through challenges. I mean, we certainly went through our share of challenges. I mean, again, you you listened to my first podcast episode, so you know that, you know, the home environment wasn't fantastic in those early days uh for various reasons. And I and I think um mom had tremendous values. You know, she really for all four of us, the me and my siblings, you know, we we look back on mom and and the values that she held. And I think we've all embraced those values um around people and and um respect and dignity and and compassion and so forth. And so I think that helped um but I also think it we we could reflect in our own lives what we had been through. And so I think we've all all four of us have lived the the horrors of a of a bad situation. And I think for that reason, you know, we we have we can relate and we can we can do things there. Um but I but I also think you know uh in in all of our engagements you know we are are around people who have their own stuff going on. And I think that one of the the great things that that we all recognize or I think those that are awake recognize is that everybody regardless of what they look outwardly in terms of title and success and so forth has their stuff going on. Um and I and I saw this working with very senior people, people that you would consider to be untouchable in terms of their successes and their credentials, uh who had the same self-doubt, the same the same fears as as we have, right? Uh in fact, some cases more. And so that to me like it's the great equal is the fact that everybody has imposter syndrome. Everybody has their anxieties and their dramas and and whatever going on. And so, you know, being compassionate with people is is just the right the right default behavior to to take. Well, I wish it was a default value. Um but uh you know, I I still have I love the concept of practical optimism and I think you're a a a walking example of it, my friend. So, thank you. um you're uh you're launching out like this is day one of unemployment as you mentioned right so semi-retirement which I think is a very elegant way of describing it um you you you've talked you were so um uh inspiring talking about milestones in your journey right what what do you think you you're you're now ready for what's what's what's the big challenge for for John I talked about icky guy for and and I do believe in Nikki guy. I think I think you know that I can't remember the exact wording but the old adage that you know if you're doing something you love you don't do you don't work a day in your life. Um and I've definitely worked some days in my life. I've definitely had roles in my life where where getting out of bed in the morning was just a labor. Um but I I don't want to be in that situation in the future. I want to be in a situation where I'm doing stuff that I I really care about. Um, so I'm exploring beyond beyond the fact that I want to continue to work with people uh and support people in ways that I can. I'm exploring um a career or or a vocation that would combine my um uh love of communicating, my love of history, my love of culture and my love of travel. And in fact um my wife and I have had the good fortune to not only live around the world but to travel and do lots of lots of holidays and so forth. And one of the things that we've done um that's been a joy is to hire personal guides in some cities. I think we did it in Rome the first time and then we've done it subsequently. We've had hired a person for the day to kind of take us out and show them show us their their city. Um and it's we've loved it. And so I'm I'm exploring the option of of kind of establishing a small group tour uh uh company where I can do similar things where I can take people out for the day and and share not only share sites with them but you know colonial history, indigenous history, culture, um folklore and so forth and and really make it an immersive thing. Now, I don't know. It's just something I'm exploring right now. But I can tell you that back on my in my honeymoon on in 1996 in the US, um, we did a bunch of bus tours and stuff on our honeymoon. And I talked to every bus driver everywhere we went. And they all love their job. And I said to my wife back then, um, all those years ago, you know what? One of these days I'm going to drive tour buses because this is a freaking that people love this. And so I'm I'm exploring that option. You know, Joe and I are both performers. We've done our stuff on stage. We're both extroverts. Uh again, we love history, we love culture, we love sightseeing and so forth. And so that to me that could be the icky guy um of our future. We'll see. I love that, mate. And you know, u kinugi, we're very closely related in the wabi uh world of Japanese philosophies and so on. So, um I love kinugi, by the way. I I I I knew the word. I've spent quite a bit of time in Japan, but in the context of this organization, I kind of step back to take a good look at again at what Kugi is. And I I love the notion uh of humans and and of taking, you know, the broken elements of humans and putting them together into something that's even more beautiful than you started with. Um and so I I think the the visualization of what that word means when it applies to people is is beautiful. So it's powerful too to be honest perhaps Kugi is my path to worth right from my you know from and I see it so often both I got on the weekend we had a a workshop uh where people got to practice the art of ksugi from a Japanese master leading it and um I I bumped into a fellow who I I'd spent some time with previously who said oh when you talk you told me about Kugi and it's been you know it's changed my life right and I just go it's weird how these parallels work you know a man needs a mission David Da says that in the way of the superior man and I think uh to be honest that you know you know what you were talking about earlier that um that sense of of of humans are magnificent right if you can make that a mission right you can do amazing amazing things in the world, I reckon. Yes, I agree. And enjoy the enjoy the journey as well. Well, you've certainly inspired um so much of that thinking in me today. I've had an absolute ball talking to you, JD. It's so cool and I hope to do so again soon. And um I'm just so grateful for you sharing your time to share the milestone day of your first day of uh the rest of your life here today, mate. and uh happy transition to uh to all of those incredible potentials that you Thank you, John. It's been it's been a a real pleasure to reconnect after all these years. It's been good to see you again. So, um yeah, let's definitely catch up again. Be great. Awesome. Thanks, brother. [Music] Thank you for listening to this episode of Cani Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lily for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. [Music] If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a taxdeductible donation. 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