Jo Tarnawsky
A diplomat speaks up against systematic workplace bullying in Parliament House and finds purpose helping others trapped in silence.
Hear this story
Jo Tarnawsky walked into Parliament House at 12 years old after winning a TV competition, and something clicked. She knew then that she wanted to work inside those walls, influencing the decisions that shaped the country. Decades later, after postings as a diplomat across Iraq, Zimbabwe, India, and Italy, she got the job she'd imagined as a child: Chief of Staff to the Deputy Prime Minister. For two years, she loved it. Then, without warning or explanation, she was locked out of her own office and pushed toward the door.
What started as small silences, her name missing from emails, meetings she should attend suddenly excluding her, became a pattern of exclusion designed to force her out quietly. When she raised concerns privately with her boss, asking only to be kept in the loop, he told her to take weeks off and find other work. No explanation. No chance to respond. Jo found herself isolated, unable to access her office or understand why. She wasn't eating. She wasn't safe. The government's system closed ranks to protect itself, not her.
But her 11-year-old daughter asked her to tell someone. That question became the turning point. Jo realised she couldn't teach her child to stand up to bullying while staying silent herself. She went public, held a press conference, asked only for an apology and accountability. The system refused to acknowledge her. After months of legal battle, she accepted a confidential settlement just before the election, not because she got what she wanted, but because she had already done everything she could to hold them to account. Now she helps others trapped in toxic workplaces understand what's happening to them, so they don't have to face that isolation alone.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses abuse & exploitation, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • Blue Knot Foundation (complex trauma): 1300 657 380 · blueknot.org.au • 1800RESPECT (family, domestic & sexual violence): 1800 737 732 · 1800respect.org.au
“You watch what happens now. It's not about who's right. They will circle around him to protect themselves and their own power.”
“Things like where your name is suddenly not on an email, the information that you're supposed to be receiving just didn't seem to reach you or maybe it was just a mistake.”
“I think bravery and courage is more being acutely aware of how afraid you are, acutely aware of the risks and the consequences, and making an active choice that you are going to do it anyway.”
The hero, today
Jo learned to trust her gut early and has kept listening to it over decades, which is what helped her recognise when something was wrong in Parliament House and what helped her decide to speak out. Workplace bullying in adult settings is driven by insecurity, but unlike school bullying, it targets high performers and ethical people whose visibility threatens the person in power, and it happens through exclusion and gaslighting rather than overt acts. When Jo raised her concerns privately and reasonably with her boss, asking only to be kept in the loop, he responded by removing her from the building without explanation, which taught her that the system will not fix itself and early intervention from human decency is the only thing that stops it escalating to court. Jo's daughter asking her to tell someone was the turning point that made her realise she could not keep covering for the system without abandoning the values she was teaching her child about standing up to bullying. Jo chose to settle the case on a confidential basis not because she got what she wanted, but because continuing to court would have kept her in limbo for another year, and because she had already done everything she could to hold them to account; the goal was not to win the case but to stop living inside it.
Yes. Jo Tarnawsky is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Jo learned to trust her gut early and has kept listening to it over decades, which is what helped her recognise when something was wrong in Parliament House and what helped her decide to speak out.
Workplace bullying in adult settings is driven by insecurity, but unlike school bullying, it targets high performers and ethical people whose visibility threatens the person in power, and it happens through exclusion and gaslighting rather than overt acts.
When Jo raised her concerns privately and reasonably with her boss, asking only to be kept in the loop, he responded by removing her from the building without explanation, which taught her that the system will not fix itself and early intervention from human decency is the only thing that stops it escalating to court.
00:00:03,000 Welcome to The Grit Diaries with Mon and Maz, a place where we show real stories meets real transformation. Each episode, we share the journeys of everyday people who's faced life's hardest moments and found their way to hope, healing and purpose. May their courage inspire you and in the world around you. Let's get inspired.
00:00:31,000 So excited today, Maz, to have Jo Tawonsky on The Grit Diaries and to hear her story of resilience and managing and navigating workplace bullying in Parliament House. She took the Australian Government to court. It's a true story of the tenacity of someone and sharing the pain and isolation and loneliness of experiencing workplace bullying at the highest levels.
00:00:53,000 and how she managed to provide some great tools and links and resources. And if anybody's been in that terrible situation of bullying, it's a podcast you cannot miss. 100%. And this is for me, I shared with Jo is she is one of our female powerhouses that we've had on these series of interviews. So I really encourage you all to listen in and enjoy.
00:01:19,000 Welcome to another episode of The Grit Diaries with Mon and Maz. Hey Mon. Hey Maz, lovely to see you again. You know, we've had some really incredible guests, don't we, that we have on this show and today is absolutely no exception. We want to welcome Jo Tawonski to The Grit Diaries. Welcome Jo.
00:01:39,000 Hi, it's great to be here. We've almost done a whole interview just now as we've just been having a chance to get to know Jo a bit more deeply and I think Sim and I agree that today has to be a very poignant conversation for both Simone and myself and I know that the people that are going to be listening to your share today are really going to really get some great wisdoms and probably a whole lot of courage to take that action that they maybe have been
00:02:05,000 hesitating on so with that I'll hand over to you Mon. Jo we're just so excited to have you online you've got such a background you're a country girl born in Tamworth and your career I just love the story of how you started in politics by winning an award at school you can tell us a little bit about that and walking into the roof of Parliament House and deciding this is where I want to be and then
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Jo's daughter asking her to tell someone was the turning point that made her realise she could not keep covering for the system without abandoning the values she was teaching her child about standing up to bullying.
This conversation includes a kid from the country walks into parliament house, growing up in tamworth, oldest of three, law was dry, so she found her home in politics, a surprise call from dfat changes everything, three deployments to iraq teach her she can do hard things and cancer, italy, and the decision to come home.
00:02:30,000 Your career kind of just expanded working globally all over the world from India, Africa, Iran, Trinidad, Tobago, Ethiopia, Deputy Ambassador for Italy. I was like, wow, I want to hear about that. And you were even fortunate to work on the UN World Food Programme.
00:02:51,000 I'd really love to hear more about that. We're going to get into that later. But just tell us a little bit about you growing up yourself and the audience would love to know more about how you got to be where you were and who you are today. Yeah, well, it's good to meet you both and, Mon, amazing that we're both New England girls. So, yes, we're up in country New South Wales.
00:03:10,000 public school girl. I had a great group of friends. I had a great high school that I went through and I'm in contact with still a lot of those people today. And when I was around 12 years old, I won a kids' competition on TV for anybody who's sort of maybe out vintage. There was a TV program on Channel 7 called Wombat with Agro and they ran a kids' competition on...
00:03:30,000 how kids could help with the environment. And if you remember sort of little project books with the blank bit at the top and the writing down the bottom, I did one of those. I covered it in contact and I submitted it. And lo and behold, I won. And I won a trip to Africa with a TV crew. And so that was a pretty big deal from a kid from the country who'd never been overseas. But a few other things were happening around that time politically.
00:03:53,000 There was a lot of work. The terminology around that time was sustainable development. And the Prime Minister, who was Bob Hawke, was in the process of launching a little booklet called Our Country, Our Future. And he invited me to Parliament House in Canberra. He invited me into his office, Prime Minister's office, and so met him there. And then we had a press conference in the courtyard. I must admit...
00:04:12,000 I was somebody that at that age, I think, a bit awkward around television cameras. I think at those, you know, you just want to be a normal kid and, you know, I'd have well-meaning kids. But when you walk down the street, they go, you know, that's that girl from Wombat. So I was not that comfortable with being on the TV. But what really changed my life was that day that I walked into Parliament because I just felt it. It was one of those light bulb moments where it was like, well, I want to be part of this when I grow older. And I didn't want to be a politician because I didn't really want to be the person on the TV.
00:04:42,000 But I wanted to be somebody who could influence the key decision makers. And I didn't know what that term was called. But, you know, it was a chief of staff, which I ultimately got to do. And, you know, in my 12-year-old brain, because I think it's a little bit like we don't quite know what careers look like at that age.
00:04:58,000 what all the details are. I just remember going, well, this place makes laws. I must have to study law if I want to work at Parliament House. Only smart people study law. So I'm going to have to work really hard at school so I can get enough marks so I can study law so I can go and work at Parliament House. And, you know, there were a few twists and turns on the way, but that is basically what I ended up doing. I did law at ANU.
00:05:20,000 And I've never practised law, but I ended up working at Parliament House the first time during my university days as a parliamentary attendant, where I delivered the mail and the water on the floor of the House of Representatives. You know, these were back in the days where Kevin Rudd was a backbencher and, you know, you didn't have iPhones and things and you passed notes between politicians and things. But it was really that day, you know, coming from the country, going to Parliament House that kind of changed the course of my life forever.
00:05:46,000 I love that. And I think it's really important to highlight that there was an external driver, you sort of ended up in this competition, you know, the exposure that came to you, but then you took that internal driver, you develop that own motivation within yourself. It's like, well,
00:06:02,000 You're putting the pieces of the puzzle together with really want to work there, be there one day. It means that I have to work hard at school. But the spark came the, you know, wow, you know, something that really lit you up and all those series of events. And I think that's, you know, sometimes when if there's any kids that are watching this interview as well, that, you know, sometimes it is those just little seeds that get planted. And then it is up to you to actually, you know, well, how am I going to harness that?
00:06:27,000 Listening to you, Jo, I think you sort of know it. There's a little moment where something just it's like your little knowing and you've got to really tap into it. And sometimes I think our world, we're so caught up on phones and social media that we're not listening to our inner gut enough. Listening to you, I think.
00:06:44,000 is for those listeners, you'll get that little knowing and you've got to really listen to it. I have definitely learned to trust my gut over the years. Trust your gut. So tell me a little bit more about the family around you. Did you have any siblings? Yeah, I'm the oldest of three girls, two younger sisters. So one lives in Sydney now and is a hairdresser and the other one lives over in the UK and
00:07:08,000 And my mum was a teacher. My dad worked the local radio station. So those who follow country music, 2TM. Oh, okay. Out of curiosity, your birth order, the fact that you were the eldest, has that any bearing on the fact that your tenacity and your drive or it was just something that's just kind of how you wired? What?
00:07:29,000 Possibly. I mean, I haven't really looked into that too much, but I think somewhere along the way, I've read about what the characteristics of the oldest children are like, and you're often having to take the first steps and break through and those sorts of things. And I definitely, I think the leadership sort of style, but, you know, that said, you know, you can be a leader, you can become anything, it doesn't matter. But yeah, so it's not something I've paid attention to that much, but it could have been a factor. Yeah.
00:07:56,000 Yeah, yeah. Step through a little bit about progressing on getting into law and then stepping into a career that was global. Yeah. So it's actually a bit of a funny story. I went to ANU. I did law. They wouldn't let me do law by itself, which annoyed me a little bit. So I had to do a double degree, as they call it. And so I ended up picking politics and international relations.
00:08:17,000 And actually, that's where I found my home. I found the people that were not better, a better fit for me. The subject matter, interesting. I was actually finding the law quite dry and dull, you know, very thick textbooks and judges I wish could get to a point sooner and sometimes outcomes I didn't agree with. But I really found my home in political science and international relations. And so that kind of started it. I also had that job that I mentioned up on the hill, which was really good.
00:08:42,000 And diplomacy, I kind of fell into, to be honest. So DFAT is notoriously hard to get into. And as I sort of was ending my career, I thought I would just put my hat in the ring for interview experience. I thought if I could get through to the interview round, it would be really good for all the other jobs that I could apply for. And so no one was more surprised than me when I kind of got through it because I didn't speak another language at the time. I sort of just, you know, I was meeting people who their lifelong dream was to be a diplomat.
00:09:11,000 They had done work experience at the UN. Some of them had applied three times. And, you know, hopefully this year would be the year. And I wasn't quite as serious as that. So no one was more surprised than me. I remember when I got the phone call, I said, yes, straight away. And they went, do you want to think about it? I went, no.
00:09:27,000 I was thinking, now there's been acceptance and agreement, we're lucky. And if you've made a mistake of running the wrong person, too bad. But I was also quite lamenting the fact I would have to leave this job that I loved, which was to deliver mail around the House of Representatives or glasses of water and lock the doors and votes and
00:09:46,000 things in parliament it wasn't sort of seen as a career job but it was a job I just loved because I was part of you know parliament house in the building but I thought well diplomacy sounds like a career but I can honestly tell you for about the first five years I thought they'd made an administrative error and if somebody had called me and said we were supposed to bring number 71 on the list not number 70 I would have gone yeah gigs up that's fair
00:10:06,000 But as it happens, you know, I ended up, you know, my first posting was to Papua New Guinea. I've still got some great friends during that time there. I ended up doing three deployments to Iraq. And actually, that was the moment that I thought, wow, really, maybe I can do this. And it was because I had a pretty tough boss at the time.
00:10:24,000 And it was something where, you know, Iraq is one of those places where I think I went into the first time thinking if I, you know, I'll do it once, I'll test myself. See, and what surprised me more than anything was I didn't just survive, I thrived. It was the people, the work, all of that. So I ended up doing three deployments in the end. But that tough boss too, he was highly complimentary of my work. So I knew he wasn't someone that just thrived.
00:10:49,000 flattered he wrote back to senior people in the department saying joe was great i'd love to have her any time and that was actually the moment a couple years in going ah maybe i'm okay yes and so i ended up doing all sorts of things for quite a while i ended up doing a lot of crisis jobs i worked in zimbabwe during the height of mcgarvey's years
00:11:11,000 I know what a billion dollar breakfast tastes like. And, you know, what does it taste like? When you see all those zeros that appear on your bill, like I remember going into a panic and just going, this was included as part of my hotel bill, right? And it was all to do with the hyperinflation. So it wasn't really, it was a billion Zimbabwean dollars, which of course isn't a billion dollars.
00:11:34,000 But yeah, that was an experience. I worked on kidnapping cases in Africa, you know, in India during the Commonwealth Games. It's sort of a series of quite crisis-related tough jobs that I did in some tough places. And then ultimately, though, the final posting that I did with DFAT was
00:11:50,000 Deputy ambassador to Italy, although I was acting ambassador for the first six months or so in between ambassadors. And as part of that, the mission was also accredited to Libya, Albania and San Marino and also the Rome-based UN agencies, which included the World Food Programme. And that was a big job at the time, pre-COVID, had the most amount of lost and stolen passports in the world. So there was always a line up.
00:12:11,000 at the embassy every Monday morning as people had been pickpocketed and we needed to help people in need. And so that was a big few years. Great for the family, you know. My daughter still speaks Italian and it was a good posting to end on. But ultimately, I really missed Australia. I got cancer during that posting and I just realised I wanted my daughter to spend more time in Australia. So when I came back, it was quite determined that I was to stay.
00:12:36,000 And what a great setup for you to have those postings and to really sink your teeth into going from, you know, the humble job that you kind of began in and then being thrown into this position and you swam and you thrived and to really kind of set you up for the next stage that you sort of embarked on. There's a beautiful message there too. You know, like you didn't think you felt like an imposter, but you just kept going forward. Yeah.
00:13:01,000 keep swimming keep swimming keep swimming yes that phrase is one that I've used more recently too just keep swimming those little words from Finding Nemo. Jo you touched on back in Australia back on your home turf and you mentioned that you developed cancer on that final post that you were on back in in Oz what was happening then for you at that time and what was significant for you in the lead up to you know sort of the challenges that you've had in parliament?
00:13:27,000 Yeah, and just before we do, I'll just jump in to say if the audience are listening, this section may be triggering a little bit in some way. So just know that you can reach out to all the incredible services of Lifeline and they're available to talk because there may be a moment here that will affect you. So just know that's all available.
00:13:49,000 Yeah, thanks, Maz. When I first came back to Australia, I didn't go to Parliament House straight away. I knew I didn't want a posting. I actually ended up going to work for the Governor-General for a couple of years. So during the COVID years, that's where I was. And then I had an opportunity at the end of that. I worked there for a few years. I had previously worked for the Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister Richard Miles when I was part of DFAT, and he was in a junior portfolio back in 2004.
00:14:15,000 2012-2013, I worked as his chief of staff then. At that point, he didn't have such a high profile. We'd had much less staff. I helped run his office. Jay was running for the UN Security Council. I used to travel around the globe with him. And when the 2022 election happened and the Albanese government came into power...
00:14:34,000 Within the first week or two, he approached me and asked me to come and be his chief of staff. I, of course, knowing now that you know what my story was, while I was, you know, surprised and delighted, I also sort of knew this was a huge role, but it was also like a role I couldn't say no to because it had been sort of the dream.
00:14:53,000 And I remember him saying to me, the reason why he came to me, he said, well, Jo, you're like family and you know me, you know how I need to run an office and you know government. And, you know, it was quite a pitch and I was on my way to another job at that time, but I had a chat with the family. I knew that the hours that would be required and the commitment that would be required and we made a decision as a family that, yeah, this was an opportunity, not just for me, but, you know, we were on board with what the Albanese government was doing and
00:15:19,000 after the previous years of government and so as a family we wanted to support that and so I dove in so I took up that job from June 2022 and I was the chief of staff during a pretty pivotal period of time you know I got to as Hamilton would say sit in the rooms where it happened wasn't always at the table sometimes just in the room but there was some sort of big momentous things happening
00:15:42,000 across those couple of years and I worked extremely hard and then suddenly, and this is the bit I guess we're going to talk to today, I was in my dream job until very, very suddenly I wasn't. Can you walk us what happened? You were and then you weren't.
00:15:58,000 Yeah, so we're about two years in and I loved my job. You could see me bouncing around Parliament. I was also a big advocate for some of the workplace culture reforms and they'd often come to me and wheel me out for different sort of staffing events because of that as well. And I think like anybody who's sort of experienced a toxic workplace, sometimes when it happens to you, particularly if you're a high performer or an ethical person,
00:16:19,000 Sometimes you can sort of feel, am I imagining it? Or, you know, I know that I did a number of things behind the scenes when I started to realise that it was starting to impact me. Where you don't, you know, your first thing isn't to go from 0 to 100, it's to try and manage it yourself. You seek advice in the sidelines, maybe with some trusted peers. Sometimes you sort of question yourself about whether or not you're imagining it.
00:16:41,000 And I have a bit of a phrase, which is keep yourself tidy. So if it was happening to me and I would bristle a bit, I'd just try not to bite back. So I was experiencing some behaviour behind the scenes, which was going on for some time. And then it had reached a point where it was happening right in front of me and it escalated to a point where I couldn't ignore it anymore. Could you just highlight maybe just one example? So for someone that's actually experiencing workplace bullying at the moment, and like you say, they're sort of questioning, is this actually real? What's an example of what was in your face that was like,
00:17:10,000 What I would prefer to do is probably explain some of the patterns that I was noticing first, because I think these are the things that we ignore that things is it us. So things like where your name is suddenly not on an email, the information that you're supposed to be receiving just didn't seem to reach you. And maybe it was just a mistake. Maybe there's meetings that you were in that suddenly didn't
00:17:32,000 you're being sidelined from. So they're kind of very small and subtle and over time. And then, you know, there's more things where, you know, we trust our gut feeling. You can feel your body language. You can feel it. But there was a particularly overt incident that happened right in front of me as we were coming back from Ukraine. And it was at that moment that I decided to reach out to the Deputy Prime Minister because it was something I could no longer ignore. But to be honest with you, all I was asking him for was
00:17:59,000 was for him to be aware of what I was trying to manage behind the scene and to not inadvertently feed the dynamics. So some of the things I was asking him to do quite reasonably, I think, was to, you know, if there was a big strategic discussion to make sure I was in the room, if a really big thing had been put in front of him, to just ask what Joe thinks, you know, just to make sure that I was being looped in. They're very reasonable things in the circumstances. I wasn't looking for big dramatic action. And so he had responded how much he valued me.
00:18:28,000 and said he wanted to have a chat about it. And so I had no kind of prior warning as to what was going to happen next. I thought I was raising a reasonable workplace concern privately in a reasonable way. And so what happened next shocked me because what happened was he phoned me. There was no time set for the phone call. I didn't have a support person. I'd never had a performance issue raised with me. And by the end of that 45 minutes,
00:18:54,000 It was clear that my employment, like, I was going to have to start looking for other work. He had told me I needed to go, like, on leave, that I wasn't very good at taking a holiday or taking leave, and so he wanted me to switch off not just for days but for weeks. Like, a conditioned good girl who was completely...
00:19:13,000 bewildered as to what was happening. I agreed that I would do that and that I would start looking for some other work, but I didn't quite know what I'd done wrong. And when these things happen, because I think when you work in politics, you know, it's high pressure, high stakes, and it can be moments where it's time for chiefs and ministers to part ways.
00:19:30,000 There's just a way of doing that with some human dignity. In fact, I had staff that I had to do it with and good exits are still possible by treating people with dignity. I always made sure those people had a farewell, that they were given a reference, that we eased them out as gently as possible, that we had good places for them to land. And I'd seen it happen with other chiefs where they sort of stuck around for a few months until they found their feet somewhere else. And so, you know, kept everybody kind of tidy. And so I didn't expect anything different to happen in my case. So
00:20:00,000 What ended up happening was I dutifully went and covered. I said I had problems at home, couldn't travel the next day to see him and that I was just going to take a bit of time off. I'll be back soon. And then when I tried to return, I was basically told by the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff, you can't ever come back. And all my things are still in my office. I'm just trying to understand how do we, what's the story here? Like the Deputy Prime Minister's Chief of Staff has just disappeared.
00:20:26,000 And, of course, because of my cancer history, because it was really unusual, it's midway through the year, it's not the time where you normally take leave, and there were some very well-meaning people who were reaching out at that time thinking maybe the cancer was back. And so people were starting to make some assumptions. And so I was applying for some postings. I was trying to, you know, send some feelers out, have some conversations. I wasn't getting any help with that. I was doing it on my own. Extreme trauma as I just could not understand why I was being treated like this.
00:20:54,000 and then blocked from the workplace so at that point i did have to get a lawyer involved very quietly i was still covering for them and i was still trying to explain to them you understand that by protecting my reputation i'm also protecting yours so we had a lawyer quietly sort of get involved so that i could return to the workplace because i had been terminated there was no reasons to terminate me
00:21:14,000 And they were able to negotiate that so that I would do a special project where I would ironically write a guide on how to be a chief of staff and go and talk to other chiefs of staff about how we could make their work better. And I did that. And I did that for a few months without letting on to others what was actually happening.
00:21:32,000 And people, of course, knew I was a huge advocate for workplace culture, had some very good conversations, which helped across that time. But when I came back into the workplace, they slapped another restriction on me, which was that I could not enter my own office unless I gave 24 hours written notice. And keep in mind, this is where my clothes are, food.
00:21:52,000 And gifts, I was one of those people that if you were having a hard day, I had a gift stash and I'd sort of sprinkle, you know, sprinkle kindness and joy around the building. Couldn't access any of that. Photos of my dogs, my family, all of that was in the office and I wasn't allowed to work there. Instead, I was put into a temporary office with some very kind people. I must say, they didn't know what was going on necessarily, but it was a very temporary desk. It was surrounded by stores of tissue boxes. You can't even make this up.
00:22:16,000 And I dutifully went around. I was then taken off. I had no IT access, no access to his diary. I didn't know what was going on. I bumped into other ministers in corridors saying, oh, I hear the Deputy Prime Minister's off to Indonesia next week. I'd have to kind of make it up on the spot because I had no idea. Those feelings, like let's just talk through that a little. That must have been like you must have felt so alone. Yeah.
00:22:38,000 isolation i think is one of the most crippling parts of all of this and it's something that i talk to other people too i use the word targets not victims because you know i'm a strong resilient person and victims didn't really feel right but when you understand you've been targeted and often it's high performing ethical people who are shining a spotlight on the system that the system does not want you
00:23:00,000 to shine a spotlight on who get targeted also something you know that is even from school days if you're different you could also be a target but it got to the point yes where I was crying in the car park of a morning to try and just pull myself together to put a brave face on for the day because I didn't know where I would be bumping into people none of my staff were talking to me so they clearly been told something wasn't allowed to come down when they tried to get into my safe they wanted to get me to give them the code over the phone and I said look I can come and open the
00:23:28,000 safe for you but that wasn't because I had very highly sensitive information that was signed out to me and I was happy to do it in the proper way but they wouldn't even let me back to do that and it got to the point where I wasn't even eating because I didn't know who I'd encounter at the coffee line or the cafe and I just did not feel safe and so bit by bit this temporary project was ending I knew I couldn't go back into my office and they do what they do to others
00:23:51,000 And I've met others and most are too afraid for very good reasons to go up against the power. They don't want to upset the party. They're too frightened. They're traumatized. And so I was being introduced to that position where I knew I was being pushed out. And what was actually killing me was covering it up. You know, even walking the dog around the lake. I had a job where Canberra's a small place and people go, how's the job going? It's the first thing they ask. And that covering and that line...
00:24:16,000 was just too much. So my social world had become very small and it was killing me. It was literally killing me. And so I was faced with a choice to be pushed out quietly where I'd have to continue to cover them. I had no story. I had no, you know,
00:24:30,000 I had no real job, no nothing as to, you know, I burnt out or whatever, or to call them out. And on the back of the Jenkins review, the standard review, which some people might remember that was commissioned in the wake of the Brittany Higgins case, you know, 1,700 people had come forward to reveal their experiences in Parliament House and promises had been made that things would be better. And here I was, the most senior female Chief of Staff on the Hill,
00:24:58,000 And I was locked out of my office and it was not okay. So I chose to say something. And I've got to say from that earlier experience of being on TV, you know, I was almost allergic to being on TV. I never wanted my name in the paper. I did not want to, you know, I think I've said it a couple of times to people that the only thing I was more afraid of than seeing myself in television is snakes.
00:25:19,000 And so, you know, to this day, I've never watched that first press conference that I did because I just remember shaking like a leaf in front of a wall of cameras. And I think sometimes when we talk about bravery and courage, we think these people are superhuman, that they're sort of, you know, they're covered in a shield.
00:25:35,000 I actually think that bravery and courage is more being acutely aware of how afraid you are, acutely aware of the risks and the consequences and making an active choice that you are going to do it anyway. Thank you for highlighting that. Jo, can you share with us what was that sort of key turning point for you when you made a decision you shared with us earlier around bravery
00:25:59,000 choosing because you had choice A or B, you could just slip out the back door, so to speak, or you could stand up and make your stand. What helped you decide? So the real turning point was my daughter. So she had just turned 11. And I think sometimes children can say things in a
00:26:19,000 I remember lying in bed on a Saturday afternoon and I was in another black hole. So I would go into black holes that were getting worse and worse. And this wasn't anything I'd sort of experienced to this depth before. And she just cuddled up to me and she said, you know, mummy, maybe if you told someone, maybe someone would help you.
00:26:38,000 And that just, you know, there's so much about that. As I was going into these black holes, I was getting increasingly worried I might find myself one I might not get into. And so I owed it to her to do everything I could to
00:26:53,000 before I got myself into that situation. But I think too, that, you know, we tell our kids that there's no secret, you know, they should share their secrets. And here we were as a family covering a secret, a really big secret. Our children are such great teachers, aren't they?
00:27:09,000 Yeah, absolutely. And then the other thing is, you know, she's just started high school now, but I knew that period of time is coming. And I know it can be rough at school. And we tell our kids, you know, if you're being bullied to say something, if something bad is happening, you say something about it. We stand up for ourselves. And I just sort of thought, how am I going to get her through the next few years if I'm not living what I'm telling her?
00:27:31,000 And so it wasn't actually something that I did immediately. I didn't call a journalist at that very moment. What I actually did was I thought about who else in the party I could go and trust because it was being kept very close in a little group. And so I actually found a female minister that I had watched
00:27:49,000 who I thought I had watched and sometimes things behind the scenes in politics is performative so I'd actually asked questions around a couple of things I'd noticed that she had done wondering if it had been you know choreographed and people said no no that's just who she is and so I remember one day walking into her office and I was distraught I mean I would not be surprised if they thought they needed to call an ambulance and get me to hospital and maybe that I'd been
00:28:13,000 assaulted or something but very good asked me what what they could do to help her and her chief and they made representations to the prime minister's office saying look we know what's happening all she's asked for is to depart with dignity and for an appropriate job to go to and i think look at her cv i think this is within her power because i was applying for things but
00:28:34,000 I mean, I look back now and I don't know how I was getting through interviews. I was putting on the best face possible, but I suspect, you know, you always kind of know when something's not quite right. I would be coming second, so close. Any kind of help probably would have helped me land one of those things. And so they went down and, you know, they still did nothing. And so it was three weeks later, I think, that I went public.
00:28:54,000 I don't blame that particular minister. I think she did everything. It wasn't her job to fix. And I am very grateful for the representation she made on my behalf. But I felt that they still weren't taking this seriously. And so you've got to learn with politics, what do they take seriously? When will they listen? And so even with that first press conference, all I was asking for was an apology.
00:29:13,000 yeah some accountability for what had happened yeah but the system did what the system does and in fact I said this in my first press conference you watch what happens now it's not about who's right they will circle around him to protect themselves and their own power that's exactly what happened so I was completely iced out by then no one would talk to me and you know my lawyer and I would try and send like letters where it was sort of like you know these are in exchange for these things like psychological support and like a an apology you know she'll resign and
00:29:43,000 They wouldn't even acknowledge our correspondence. Ended up being forced into it. They wanted me to deal with Comcover, which I don't know if you know what that is, but it's the government kind of insurance agency. And so the only terms they can deal with is money. And that wasn't going to make this right. And so I wrote to the Prime Minister and I said, I noticed you've passed this to Comcover, but they can only deal with money. And I want accountability and apology. So I'm referring this back to you, Prime Minister. I did an open letter. To this day, he has never acknowledged receipt of that correspondence.
00:30:11,000 And so we were sort of forced into a position where they wouldn't deal with us properly. And so I had to make the decision I thought I'd never, ever have to make in my life, which was to sue them. And so by the end of 2024, I was suing the Deputy Prime Minister, the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff and the Commonwealth and the Federal Court.
00:30:31,000 wow you know and you would have never seen to the degree when you made that decision that this was where you'd end up absolutely not and in fact as I learn about workplaces I often say to people you know I think sometimes the way workplaces deal with it is because they don't know any better and I feel sometimes that their first instinct is to get lawyers in the room and get HR in the room and
00:30:54,000 And it's all about risk. And if anyone talks to them, then it's a risk. What I think often needs to happen is a third person maybe in the room that can just remind people of the human on the other end of it and to listen to them. I mean, I remember saying to one paper, there was 100 different ways that this could have been dealt with. 99 of them would have been better than this. And there are options. And the amount of people that I speak to where early intervention on something like an apology, just being treated with human dignity...
00:31:24,000 It means it won't end up in court. And I can very much say that would have been my experience. I had no intentions. It took a level of bravery I didn't even know I had to take on that level of power. I think, Jo, what you're highlighting too very much in my health background, when things have gone wrong, when there's been a medical emergency,
00:31:47,000 mishap that the patients will always say and I think this is always good for people to know you know just in their private lives or their work lives that people just want validation of their experience and they want the apology which validates the fact that their actions affected them and to your absolute point it will shut down courtrooms absolutely and you will probably also see too like I've learned a
00:32:17,000 One of the things, and I even tell people this when I'm speaking to them, that I've noticed a habit of traumatised people from workplace environments is they will go down rabbit holes to over-explain everything. And where that's coming from is...
00:32:32,000 where they haven't been believed before, they haven't been heard or they've been misunderstood. So they feel they have to over-explain so you'll get it because that's so important to them. And so that's a symptom of some of the trauma that they've experienced. Less is more and strength in words and choice of words. But I really like what you just said then that there could have been a million different ways they could have tackled it with respect and dignity.
00:33:01,000 And early intervention and so much impact could have been minimized to talk this through and mediate in a way that is going to get to a harmonious solution. Yeah, it's insane, isn't it? Do you want to just round it out, Jo, in regards to the outcome there and then really want to move into, you know, what wisdom you can share as a result and where you are now?
00:33:24,000 Yeah. So at the end of 2024, I had my second national press conference where I announced that I was suing the Deputy Prime Minister, the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff in the Commonwealth. And so we ended up actually going, it's hard to believe it's only a year. So in the early part of 2025, we appeared in the federal court a couple of times for case management hearings. The case was ultimately settled on a no liability basis, which is very common, just before the election. And so by then, I mean, even that came with choices because
00:33:54,000 I knew I wasn't going to get my job back. I knew nothing could quite make it right. I knew I'd never get an apology. But I was also faced with choices. I could go forward with the court trial. It would have been a little bit like
00:34:08,000 Antoinette Latouf where it would have been live streamed around the country you know very important people taking the stand it would have been another year before even if it was fast-tracked before that happened and the level of trauma for anybody who's been through a series like this like it is difficult to explain but every day it's
00:34:24,000 every day you're fighting for your life basically and even the combat I call it between lawyers letters and things you know you shake I'd have to take the dogs for a walk just to calm down and so given I'm a cancer survivor and everything I kind of had to think about my health and my family and the fact my life would be in limbo and for what because a court can really only give you some monetary outcomes that might be enough to pay my legal bills and to basically say you were right and
00:34:50,000 I felt I already knew that. And so I didn't really need to wait around another year. But I also felt that so for health reasons, but also because I felt that I had done everything I could to call out that behavior and to hold them to account. And so I accepted out of court arrangement. That is a confidential arrangement. And it was something that kind of ended at one of the things that really helped me.
00:35:12,000 I was able to go back into the office one more time on a Sunday afternoon when nobody was there and I was given strict instructions on where to park and what order to do things and all sorts of things. But on my own terms, I got to go into that building one more time, pack up my office. I had food that had expired for longer than six months, all sorts of things. But I got to do it in my way and to be able to leave consciously. So that was good. And then I took advice from friends, which was to take a break.
00:35:39,000 I went hiking first to Tasmania and sometimes switching off no phones or anything. That was just a magical experience. It was really good to decompress. Then I did, I took the family on a holiday. I mean, they had lived it too. So my husband and my daughter, we went to Japan. And then I came back to sort of think about what next. I knew I didn't want to dive into work straight away. So I did a few courses. I attended some writers festivals and things. And then I closed it off with another break walking the Larapinta, which was really, again, very good.
00:36:08,000 But I think if you'd asked me at the end of the case what I would have done, I actually wanted to close this chapter of my life. You know, you've heard what I've done. I've worked for the Governor-General. I've been a diplomat. I've got experience in a whole range of things. But I didn't want this one thing that a bad thing that had happened to me to define who I was. I felt I had so much more to offer than that. But what changed my mind was actually the amount of people who continued for months afterwards, who would just pop up
00:36:37,000 usually via LinkedIn in my DMs just sort of saying how important my activity on LinkedIn was now this is really interesting because at the time I wasn't posting about it I was posting about me going to a writers festival or me catching up with someone I wasn't posting about workplace but what I was doing without realizing it was I was learning about my own situation so I would like posts
00:36:58,000 from psychologists and academics who were working in this space. And clearly, if you were connected to me, this was popping up on people's feeds. And so if they were suffering in a workplace where they couldn't yet understand what was happening to them and they couldn't be overt in liking or commenting those posts themselves, people would tell me, I'm learning so much about my own situation.
00:37:17,000 through your activity. Wow. And so, yeah. That's amazing. You weren't publicly putting any commentary of your own, but that is really helpful. Yeah, and like even last week I had somebody, a political staffer, reach out because, you know,
00:37:33,000 They remember me standing up and what they said. I remember you too. Yeah. And they just, and now they're in a situation where they find their way to me. And so that's where it becomes because isolation is so hard. But if you can see somebody, this has happened to this person. I had a mum that reached out to me. She said the child had just been taken out of school because of bullying and gone to a different school. And they had said they'd seen me on TV and knowing that it happens to adults too.
00:38:00,000 too, had helped them. My lawyer had always said, you'll be helping people you never even know about. And he was a game changer. He's a life changer. He does really purpose-driven legal work. And so I knew wherever I went next, I also wanted to be purpose-driven. Didn't want to run a law firm, but did need to find my own space. And so with these queries that would come through, I realised that if I wanted to help people and have a positive impact on people, I shouldn't be closing the door
00:38:25,000 on this experience, but I should be leaning in to help others. And so while I have been a public servant for decades, I now consider myself a public servant of a different kind. And so I try and help people who are suffering in toxic workplaces to understand the dynamic, to understand why they've been targeted and to give them more information about all of that so they can make a better decision about what to do next.
00:38:49,000 You've really taken from your pain into incredible purpose, the impact that you can have on so many. Someone said to me the other day that the word bullying now is probably worse than any other word. If ever that word comes up, people, you know, we all immediately go, we don't like bullies, you know, and it's not good. Thank you so much for your share. And tell us more about now the work that you do, you offer, because you were telling me some wonderful things that you offer to help
00:39:17,000 people who are feeling out there, if you are a listener out there feeling that you've been in a situation of bullying, tell us a bit about some of the tools, the resources, and also the things you're building. It'll be so helpful for so many.
00:39:30,000 Yeah, so anybody who's on LinkedIn or Instagram, that's where you'll find me and I do post about things regularly. I also, to help people, because often there's a shame that comes with it. People don't necessarily want to be overt when they're asking for help and they don't actually even know where to go because they don't really understand what's happening. So what I did was I created an on-demand video series and a guidebook
00:39:51,000 And it's basically something that people can just, they can access via my website. There's a small fee attached and that, you know, less than what a coaching or a doctor's, you know, a specialist appointment would be. And you can download these videos, watch them anytime. And it's me talking to you to reassure you about what is happening to help you understand and so that you can make a better decision for yourself. So it's a series of short videos and then accompanying that as a guidebook. It describes terms that I had to learn, things like mobbing,
00:40:19,000 scapegoating, upward bullying. There's sort of various dynamics. You can read those terms to understand where you fit and what is happening to you. And then paired with that, I add podcasts, articles, all sorts of things that depending on your specific circumstances and how you like to learn that you can access.
00:40:39,000 so that you can, again, help empower and inform yourself. But it's also to just help you know you're not alone. I provide some statistics in there around workplace bullying, how the types of industries, the types of people. Globally, this is a really big problem. One of the most helpful things I think that I can share with people when they're sort of wondering, is it me, is it me, is it me? When we're at school, we kind of know what a bully looks like.
00:41:03,000 they act in very overt ways. So it might be name-calling, it might be threatening violence. You can touch and feel it, right? So when you go home and tell your parents, it's very easy to say it's that person and this is how they're behaving. And we're told that it's driven by insecurity.
00:41:19,000 And often the targets when we're at school, it's actually more the weakest. I don't want to, maybe the weakest isn't the right way to use it. They're trying to pick on people that they know they will be able to lord it over, right? When you get to an adult workplace. It becomes sophisticated.
00:41:35,000 Yeah, well, one of the things that hasn't changed, it's still driven by insecurity. But the threat is posed by high-performing, ethical people. And so they become the target. And it's done in a more sinister, underhanded way. And this is where the gaslighting and the doubting yourself happens.
00:41:52,000 can come in because it's through smearing and gossiping and keeping you off emails and keeping you excluded. And it's the white ant. There's a whole range of really underhanded things, which means it can go on for a really long time before you are in a point where you realize how much it's impacting you.
00:42:12,000 and you're putting up your hand going, like, I need help. And so it's not as easy to explain, even when you come home to loved ones, to be able to explain what's going on because the well-meaning advice will be, well, just ignore it. Just ignore it. Just don't bite back because unless you've lived it, you do not understand it's like death by a thousand cuts. And so this is one sort of helpful thing. One of the things I haven't yet launched but I'm hoping to do in the next couple of months is
00:42:39,000 One of the challenges facing people who have experienced this is where they go next for safe work and some questions that you can reasonably ask in
00:42:47,000 interviews where you won't tip off why you're asking, but it'll just give you some information that you might need to help you work out if it's a safe next step for you. And the other thing is something around for people who care about someone who is experiencing a toxic workplace so that they can understand what might be helpful and what's going on, because sadly, just ignoring the behaviour isn't going to make it go away. And sometimes we also need to make really informed decisions as to who we go to for help.
00:43:15,000 Because some of the people that we think might protect us may not. Particularly, it's very common for the system to close in on itself for you to be seen as the risk. So these sorts of things are the type of things that I'm working on over the next few months to try and additionally help people.
00:43:30,000 Thank you for putting that resource together. I think one of the key things with any kind of situation where you are getting a gut response to this doesn't feel right, whether that's in your workplace, how you live, family, et cetera, et cetera,
00:43:46,000 that having a resource to, you know, either just get some education, get some resources to understand what is actually happening, what's in front of you, and to be able to tease that out. What an excellent resource.
00:44:01,000 Yeah. And just because reality, you start to wonder what is reality. And I think like what you said, Joe, to your point, when you go home and you try to explain it to your family and you're absolutely exhausted by it all. Sometimes you don't even want to tell. You just want to like you just want to pause. And it's such a tough time. And I just wanted to quickly ask a little bit more about this experience.
00:44:22,000 insecurity of the bullies. You touch on it that, you know, it's clearly insecurity. And another thing that's often said is that a bully is deeply, deeply has low esteem. For some reason, they look like they've got the most esteem. Why do you think like what you said, and I've seen this happen, having run an executive search company and interviewed a lot of people who've left jobs, there is this constant that pattern seems to come up. And
00:44:48,000 and that they target high performers. Why do you think they do that? Can you tell me what is the mechanics of a low esteemed person with a lot of insecurity to target those types?
00:45:02,000 Because they're the threat. You know how you say sunlight is the best disinfectant? When you're putting a light on something where they want to remain, keep their power or their position or the way things are, you are the threat. So the thrill of sort of picking on the weakest link doesn't really matter at that point. In a workplace, there are always power and politics dynamics. Of course, it takes on a whole new life when you're working somewhere like Parliament House, but that is the focus. And, you know,
00:45:31,000 There's a few other little things that I learned along the way, like upward bullying. I was asked by so many people, like you were the boss, how were you bullied? How has this happened? And the way I explain that is, well, it's a little bit like a robber that comes into your house. They don't have to appear at midnight.
00:45:46,000 and we're a balaclava, it is the act of breaking into your house and stealing something that makes them a robber. And it's the same with a bully. It's not a position on an organisation chart. It is the act of bullying. So I think things like that, the more open conversations we can have, sometimes I think those conversations can help workplaces understand the dynamics better because I think it's so misunderstood and like anything,
00:46:10,000 When you understand the dynamics, you can actually address it better and that if something is happening, you might not see it just at face value because there's certain things that might be manipulated by certain personalities. And so all of these things are helpful if we can shine a light more on the reality of the dynamics and how they work.
00:46:31,000 We could continue. I almost think that we could really do a part two on this. We could make this a two-hour. Yeah, yeah. I guess if we can round this off with if we sort of went a little bit back in time and for people that have gone through the
00:46:47,000 going through through what you've been through if you could go back to that young 12 year old that walked into parliament and had that feeling back then i need to be in these walls and then what has actually eventuated over those decades and ended up in a situation you never saw coming but you know it's actually empowered you exponentially and has now fueled the work that you're doing now what would you say to that 12 year old that had that inspiration way back then now
00:47:17,000 You know, it's funny because I'm not somebody that has regrets. I sort of own the choices that I've made. So I don't think I would go back to that 12-year-old and say don't do it because I actually think we need more good people involved in politics. In fact, I'm writing a series at the moment on Substack about power and how power works because you need to understand so that you can make a difference. So I wouldn't start from the don't do it, have regrets. I would probably just say this will be, like with many people, you go into politics with rose-coloured glasses. This will be harder than you think.
00:47:46,000 but it's going to be okay and you will make a difference. I think one of the most ironic things is that when I walked into Parliament House that first time and I met with the Prime Minister and I had a press conference and my career in Parliament House also ended with a press conference. So that is, to me, whether you call it the universe, God, whatever, like there are certain things that have happened in my life that are way outside my control and
00:48:11,000 But you know, there's something about the book ending of that. And I'm still contacted by people. It's not fixed. I plan to use my voice for advocacy to help others who are suffering behind the scenes. It is a different thing to come forward and talk about it publicly. And so I plan to continue to be a voice for them. Beautiful. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Jo, for your time today. I think this podcast will be really helpful for many
00:48:36,000 We're so grateful to have you on Grit Diaries, Grit to Grace, aren't we, Maz? Absolutely. And all on Kintsugi Heroes, the Grit Diaries, you'll have all your resources that you can reach out to Jo. Jo, thank you so much for being with us here on the Grit Diaries. Thank you for your time, Jo. Great to talk to you. Thanks. Thanks.
00:49:00,000 Thank you for joining us on the Grit Diaries from Grit to Grace. If today's story has moved you, share it with someone who needs a little hope. Remember from grit, we can find grace and from grace, we can find inspiration. Until next time, look for the joy, keep safe, stay grounded and never forget that there is a strength within your own story. Take care.
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