Deborah Ko · 82 min
A cultural psychologist who spent her life feeling 'not Chinese enough' and 'not American enough' reveals how embracing multiple, sometimes contradictory selves is not a weakness, it is a superpower.
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Deborah Ko grew up in Silicon Valley caught between two worlds: an American mother and a Hong Kong father. She never quite fit. People told her she wasn't Chinese enough, wasn't American enough. It wasn't until she discovered cultural psychology as a university student that everything clicked. The framework gave her language for what she'd felt her whole life but couldn't name. When she later moved to Hong Kong for her postdoc, a bigger realisation hit: being Chinese enough was the wrong question entirely. American Chinese turned out to be its own distinct culture. What she'd seen as a failure to belong was actually a culture unto itself.
Deborah is a cultural psychologist who has spent her career studying how culture shapes the way we think, lead, and show up at work. She explains why what counts as good leadership, authenticity, or even extroversion is not universal. A calm, observant leader reads as extroverted in one culture and shy in another. Self-promotion that's expected in America reads as arrogant in Australia. Frame switching, changing how you show up depending on context, is not dishonest. It is how you translate yourself so people can actually hear you. She also explores what it means to hold multiple, sometimes contradictory selves at once, why brutal honesty from close family members in Asian culture is a sign of intimacy, and what happens to our authentic voice when we outsource our communication to AI.
For anyone navigating multiple cultures, or simply curious about why people do things differently, Deborah's work offers both relief and clarity. Being caught between worlds is not a curse. It is a skill, and a strength.
“I finally realized that actually being American Chinese is a culture unto itself. And I think that was the big realization for me that we shouldn't have been pitting, my identity shouldn't have been pit against each other. It was actually one and the same thing.”
“Adaptability, resilience, and courage are things that I think of for anyone that crosses any border.”
“It is a skill. It is a power to be able to hold multiple cultures at the same time.”
The hero, today
When you're caught between two cultures, that in-between space is not a failure to belong. It's a distinct culture of its own, and understanding that shift changes how you see yourself. What counts as extroversion, good leadership, or authentic self-expression is not universal. It depends on culture. When someone acts differently from what you expect, it's worth asking what their cultural context might make sense of before assuming something is wrong with them. You can be authentic and fluid at the same time. Changing how you show up depending on context is not dishonest if you're doing it with intention. It is how you translate yourself so people can hear you. Honesty and kindness are not the same thing across cultures. In some cultures, the closest people to you are trusted with brutal honesty because it means you care enough to tell them the truth. In others, kindness means gentleness. Neither is better. Both are real care. If you use AI to write something on your behalf without reading it back and thinking whether it's actually what you want to say, you've outsourced your critical thinking and your voice. Authenticity is about saying exactly what you mean, not letting the tool decide for you.
Yes. Deborah Ko is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
When you're caught between two cultures, that in-between space is not a failure to belong. It's a distinct culture of its own, and understanding that shift changes how you see yourself.
What counts as extroversion, good leadership, or authentic self-expression is not universal. It depends on culture. When someone acts differently from what you expect, it's worth asking what their cultural context might make sense of before assuming something is wrong with them.
You can be authentic and fluid at the same time. Changing how you show up depending on context is not dishonest if you're doing it with intention. It is how you translate yourself so people can hear you.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 00:15
Hello and welcome to From There to Here, the podcast where we talk about what it's like to live in between cultures and everything that comes with it. I'm your host, Emma Bellamy, and my guest today is Deborah Koh. Deborah is a cultural psychologist who's lived at the crossroads of cultures her entire life. Her journey to make sense of her own identity, of feeling she wasn't Chinese enough or American enough, has given her cross-cultural insights that are refreshingly personal and relatable. In this episode, we unpack how culture shapes how we see ourselves and the way we show up in the world. We talk about how leadership looks radically different across cultures, why holding multiple and sometimes conflicting selves isn't inauthentic per se, and what we can do to hold on to our cultural nuances and authentic voice with the rise of AI. Whether you've navigated multiple cultures or are just curious about how culture shapes us, this conversation will offer a lot to reflect on and hopefully will inspire you to see the way we think, feel, and behave in a whole new light. All right, let's get into the episode. Déborah Coe, welcome on the podcast From There to Here. I'm really, really excited to have a conversation with you. You know that you are the first cultural psychologist that I interview, and I think there is really so much to be learned about how culture shapes and is shaped by the way we think, act, and feel. So yeah, I'm really, really glad to have you here.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 02:15
Awesome. I can't wait. And there's not that many cultural psychologists, I feel. So I'm like, well, it's time. It stands to reason that you wouldn't have that many on the podcast.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 02:25
Yeah, it's actually very hard to find. So actually, one of the very interesting things about your profile is that you've lived at the intersection of many cultures. I know that your mom is American, your dad is from Hong Kong, your husband is Australian, and your work has taken you across the US. Singapore, Hong Kong. So yeah, you've really experienced a mix of different cultures.
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Honesty and kindness are not the same thing across cultures. In some cultures, the closest people to you are trusted with brutal honesty because it means you care enough to tell them the truth. In others, kindness means gentleness. Neither is better. Both are real care.
This conversation includes growing up caught between two worlds, the course that changed everything, moving to hong kong and seeing the nuance, holding two opposing things at once, independent selves versus interdependent selves and the extroversion bias in hiring and leadership.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 02:53
Yeah, I feel like it started with my family and then I just kind of grabbed it and kept going with it. So yeah, my mom is from New Jersey and my dad is from Hong Kong, and so I always feel like I never really fit in when I was growing up. I grew up in the Silicon Valley where there's actually a lot of people from all over the place you know, right during the dot-com boom. So I had a lot of friends who were Asian American, although I usually got the, uh, you're not Chinese enough. Oh, you're not American enough. And so I think I really struggled finding my place, finding my identity because, you know, like my mom is very American, my dad is very Hong Kong. And so you're sort of caught between two different worlds. So actually I always knew I was like, I was fascinated by people and I knew I wanted to go into psychology. And so I'm taking all of these different courses. And I took this course in cultural psychology and it was like everything clicked. You know, I didn't have to study pretty much because really the concepts were all things that I innately understood. And so I had intro psych already and I could understand those concepts, but then you had these cultural psych concepts where it gave me more like a framework to be able to talk about my lived experience with my family and my upbringing. So So I think that's one of those things where it allowed me to sort of see that there might be a different side to the question of what does it mean to be Chinese? What does it mean to be American? And then of course, you're saying like, I've been everywhere. I haven't been everywhere, but I moved to Hong Kong for my postdoc and I realized the whole time I was growing up, this idea of being Chinese enough was completely made up. Because, you know, I realized I got the wrong question. We were talking about the wrong thing because actually, once I got to Hong Kong, it was like, well, are you Hong Kong Chinese? Is that the same as being Singaporean Chinese? Is that the same as being Malaysian Chinese or mainland Chinese? Right. Being Chinese enough doesn't really mean anything when you actually go to a country that can speak Chinese and has Chinese cultural background. So you start to see all of these nuances. And I finally realized that actually being American Chinese is a culture unto itself. And I think that was the big realization for me that we shouldn't have been pitting— my identity shouldn't have been pit against each other. It was actually one and the same thing.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 05:33
Wow. That's so interesting. So was it when you went to Hong Kong for the first time that you basically understood the impact of culture?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 05:41
Yeah, I mean, like, I think with cultural psychology, it was finally a space for me to talk about things and be able to explain things in a way that I couldn't before. But I do definitely feel like when I went to Hong Kong and actually meeting, for instance, Canadian Chinese and realizing that we have a lot of similarities, there are cultural connections that I can make in terms of my upbringing that I didn't realize were unique to how I grew up. So I definitely feel like being exposed and being out of my comfort zone allowed me to sort of, you know, like your identity starts to become more highlighted. It's like whenever you travel to a different place, you become very aware of your own kind of cultural, you know, like the culture shock basically. So it redefines and it kind of outlines what your cultural identity is as you're moving in a different place.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 06:39
Hmm. So basically choosing the discipline of cultural psychology has been a way for you to understand yourself, to understand your life. Tell me about, you know, is there an important or interesting discovery that you've materialized through the study of cultural psychology that perhaps you felt, but you never really quite put the words on it?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 07:04
Well, actually, something that, you know, we were talking about before about like, am I Chinese enough? Am I American enough? So one of the classes, it was taught by quite an established cultural psychologist. And so he was talking about his own studies and he was talking about how different cultures actually think differently based on the traditions of thought. So for instance, in Western cultures, they have more analytical thought in terms of debating, like I've got 2 different opposing views and we need to debate until we come to one centralized idea. So there can only be one right answer. It's a little bit like Highlander. And so what he was talking about was like in many East Asian cultures, there's more of a perception of looking at the whole rather than trying to look at sort of the parts in and of themselves. You can kind of think of it as the approach to medicine, right? In Western medicine, you're trying to identify the specific thing that's going wrong and you give medicine specifically for that thing, whereas in Traditional Chinese Medicine and many other Eastern medicines, you are looking at sort of, this could be a signal of something that's going wrong in a greater network. And so he was saying that one of the things about this sort of holistic way of thinking is that different cultures don't have as much discomfort with two things that are contradictory. So in Western cultures, you know, like when you're thinking about debating two opposing things, you need to come to one decision. And so when you have two opposing things, it's very uncomfortable to sit with two things that might be contradictory or might go against each other in some way. So the idea of holding two opposing things is called dialecticism. And so he was talking about dolphins and he's like, okay, like, well, how do you think about dolphins? Everyone's like, oh, they're playful. They're loving. They're really smart. And he was like, well, do you also know that dolphins are ruthless killers? Like sometimes they kill their own kind, like, and so you're holding these two things where you're like, they can't be loving and kind and also ruthless killers at the same time. But the idea is that dolphins are both. So I think that was one of the first things where I was like, oh my goodness, like, you know, a lot of the questions that I have and a lot of the things where I find my upbringing to be a little bit contradictory, they're okay and they exist together. And I think that was one of the things where it was like, I don't have to feel discomfort for being multiple things that sometimes seem contradictory.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 09:46
I love that. It's really interesting, the discomfort that we can feel about duality, about opposing concepts as part of your identity. And I love what you say about multiplicity. So it's not only two opposing things, it's multiple selves.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 10:04
Yes, and I think we don't recognize some of those multiple selves, and especially people that move around the world, they inhabit multiple selves, and they may or may not be aware of those multiple selves. Oh, and I just wanted to caveat some of the conversation that we'll have because I do talk a lot about culture, and one of the sticky parts about talking about culture is that it can veer very strongly into stereotypes. And so when I talk about some of the studies that have been run, one, a lot of cultural psychology has been done on cultures that are very, very, I guess, contradictory. So many of them are from East Asia, but there, there are many from, from different parts of the world, but the ones that are most studied are the ones from East Asia. So like, if it's sort of biased towards APAC, that's one of the reasons why. The other thing is that we talk about averages. So on average, someone from this culture might do this on average, and that culture might do this, but people are all on a continuum. So I think sometimes we do some of these like cultural trainings at my work, and one of the things that I always say is that, you know, if you go to India and you say like, oh, India is like this, it's like the funniest thing because India is one of the most complex countries in the world. And to just sort of say like, here's the average, this is what every Indian person is like, doesn't make any sense. So take that as a caveat to all of the discussions that we're having, that I kind of liken it to when you talk about parenting, right? Like, a parent will transmit rules to their children, but if you've ever seen siblings, they're not carbon copies of themselves, and they're not carbon copies of their parents. And I think culture is the same way. Culture gives you a framework of, like, how to move about the world, how to think about things, but your experiences, the interactions you have, the friends that you have will also sort of shape that. So I just want to kind of make that clear that when I talk about these things, I don't want people to start thinking like, oh, like all, all Chinese people are like this.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 12:10
Yeah, no, it's a very important point. It's not because you say that culturally speaking, the average is this, it doesn't have to erase individual differences and that we are all on a spectrum, so to speak. So something that I want to talk about with you is how the concept of selfhood differ across cultures. And I think one of the biggest distinctions that has been made is this distinction between the independent atomistic self versus the interdependent relational self. And one is more common among Westerners and the other is more common among Eastern philosophies. Can you elaborate a little bit on that? The, I guess, relevance of this distinction?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 13:02
Yeah, so I think most people will at least be familiar with individualism and collectivism, and so that's sort of like, you know, the individual versus the group. And so independent and interdependent selves are more like, how do I see myself? And that often translates to these different cultures. So how I see myself I see myself as independent from others. It means that, like, my perception of myself is bound to my own personal qualities, my own thoughts and beliefs, whereas an interdependent self, their sense of self is a little bit more permeable in the sense that, like, my sense of self is also related to how I am connected to somebody else. And I think when we think of individual and collectivism, one, there's a myth that collectivist societies all just love each other, like they just love harmony, everyone's in harmony. And what I would say is actually it's not. It's actually that there could be disharmony, but it's a little bit like a web in a sense that you step on one web, you do affect the other person. So it's like, even if I don't like this person, my actions or that person's actions might affect me as well. So I have to be aware of those things, like how my actions affect other people. So for the interdependent self, a good example of things that we do to test some of this is— it's like a very simple test. It's 20 questions and they all say, "I am" and a blank. And you just have to write down, "I am this, I am this, I'm this." And for people that hold a more independent self-control, they will say like, "I am smart. I am funny." I am loyal. See, these are all traits. These are all sort of personality differences, whereas somebody that has a potentially more interdependent self might say, I'm a sister, I'm a mother, I'm an engineer, I'm a member of this religious group, right? Like, they are talking about more of the roles that they play in other people's lives and in their communities. So it doesn't mean that, like, somebody that has a more independent perception of themselves girls never talks about their roles. And what I would also say is being bicultural, one of the things that is helpful is that I can sometimes translate that feeling to somebody that might feel like that must be very unfamiliar. So for somebody that is from a very individualistic society, you can still understand what it feels like to be interdependent. That's when you're in a very, very close relationship, right? Like you have a partner where you do think about how your actions affect the other person and how the other person will react. Or you have a child. So for instance, what they find is that for people that are more interdependent, the successes of people that are close to you, you feel them as your own. And so definitely most parents understand that feeling of like, I know what it feels like when somebody succeeds that is close to me. When my child succeeds, I do feel that sense of accomplishment myself. The only other thing that I would say especially being an APAC, one of the really interesting things is this idea of saving face. And so it makes a lot of sense when you understand these different ways of seeing yourself. And so there's 3 different faces: my face, like my reputation, my dignity; your face, so your reputation, your dignity; and then the third one is our face. So how do people perceive us? So like a good example could be If you and I are friends and we're walking down the street and we get into an argument, but we don't want everyone else to see this argument, like it might be that like we want to show that we're still good friends, so we will save that argument for later. We won't do it in public because we want to save our relational face. So that's one of those things where you can feel the pain of the relationship. It's the focus on like making sure that many aspects of my behavior, I've taken into account a lot of the context and a lot of the people that that could affect.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 17:32
Hmm. And so are you saying that basically most people have these two ideas of self, but depending on the culture where they reside, there is a tendency to favor one in relation to the other. Yeah.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 17:51
And I think culture will encourage different types of selves. So for instance, in American culture, you might have things like a lot of celebrities or, you know, like rockstar CEOs, Hollywood personalities, right? It exalts the individual. You see a lot of Hollywood movies where it's like this one person that like saves the day. And without this one person, nothing could go right, right? It's looking at the individual and perhaps the individual's own traits that cause them to overcome certain problems. So you can see it in how we parent, how our education system is, the stories that we tell that will favor certain selves over others.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 18:40
And it's true that in movies you can really see that in American culture, but in other cultures as well, there is this is on the self-made, the underdog who succeeds against all odds. And there is a bit of a myth that it is possible to succeed without help. So I think it's a very powerful view of the self that we see in so many movies those days.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 19:05
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think if you ever want to sort of understand some of those subtle rules, like watch some of the most celebrated movies in that culture to sort of see like, why is the protagonist so successful? What kind of traits do they have? What are the social dynamics? You can learn so much about what a culture values. And one thing that I would also say is, you know, like when we have these cultural workshops in my work, one of the things that we show this picture of a fishbowl. With a fish saying, um, how's the water? And then these two other fish going like, what's water? And one of the things that I think fascinates me about culture is that we are largely unaware of culture until somebody breaks a cultural norm. And so oftentimes the only time we are aware of our culture is when somebody does something where we automatically go either that's weird or that's wrong. And so So there are many reasons why people do things that are weird or wrong. They could be because of personality traits and things like that. But overwhelmingly, and especially in many Western cultures, the assumption is that there's something wrong with that. There's a trait like, oh, that person's stupid, or that person's lazy, or— so it's a trait-based assumption. Whereas I think we forget about culture. And so I think sometimes when I'm talking about culture, what I want to impart on people is to, we, we will make that trait assumption. Oh, that person's, you know, this or that. But then we should take that one step further and go, is there something about their culture that makes this action make sense? Because we often look at people through our own cultural lens and we are very unaware of what our cultural lens is unless we are talking to people from different cultures constantly, or we are living in a different place where that lens becomes more and more apparent as people surprise you over and over again.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 21:22
Yeah, it's so true. And I'm thinking, you know, when you get into a new culture, particularly as a professional, how many missteps you do that make you be perceived as very inadequate. I remember when I arrived in Australia, I used to ride very formal email with "Dear Madame" or "Sir," you know, and it's not something you do in Australia. And I'm sure that a lot of people thought I was awkward, but until someone said to me, "No, it's not something we do. Just say hi." And I'm like, "How can you say hi to a superior?" To me, that was just, that was so bizarre that we would do that. That was a lack of respect. But here it was just, we are all equal. So you shouldn't be having too much formality, otherwise it shows that you're not really understanding the culture. And that ties to an idea of leadership, how we see a good professional in one culture is completely different to how we see a good professional in another culture. Tell us a little bit about that, because I know that you have a few thoughts on how leadership differs across cultures. Yeah.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 22:34
It actually all started because I give some of these cultural workshops and one of the teams had said to me, hey, could you actually talk about introversion and extroversion? Because, you know, a lot of the people on our team are introverted and it seems that when we want to go for leadership positions, there's just a bias against introverts. And so I, you know, I was thinking about like, well, culture is social. It's a social construct. It has nothing to do with introversion or extroversion, which is a personality thing. But as I dug into it, I realized that actually there is a very strong bias that I was myself not aware of. And that does affect how you're perceived in the workforce, what it means to be a leader. And so one of the things that I found out that there's an extroversion bias. And so when people think about leadership, unfortunately, there is a bias that people that are perceived as extroverted are more likely to be perceived as leaders or have the traits or the qualities of leaders, which can be kind of depressing for somebody that's introverted. But then as I was looking through it further, what I realized was the research on what an extrovert actually is is quite fuzzy. And in fact, I was even looking into the literature of it today, and it's still very much contentious. So if I ask anyone, like, what is an extrovert? You know, somebody that's talkative, very social, assertive, charismatic, has a lot of energy. So because of my cultural psychology background, I was like, wait a minute, actually, I know a couple things where that might not be actually true. The, the only thing that I can say with more certainty now about what extroversion is, is that you have more dopamine to reward. That's it. It says nothing about talkativeness or high energy or any of those things. So two of them that I wanted to dig into a little bit deeper are about talking and high energy. Because I think one of the big things in terms of the workforce that people talk to me about, and what I have heard as well, is, oh, they don't talk enough in the meetings. You know, like, if you want to be seen and you want to have influence, you need to talk more in these meetings. You need to be able to articulate yourself in a public setting. So I actually ask people this, in this region, I was like, how many people are graded on participation? Which means like how many times you say something in class. And I was shocked that nobody, nobody is graded on participation. So when I was growing up in America, the teacher would mark down every single time you raised your hand and said something. You didn't have to say anything, you just had to say something, you got marked down. And And, you know, when I told this to people, they're like, "Oh, that makes a lot of sense." So like, I was encouraged from a very early age that in order to excel in my education, I have to talk. It doesn't matter what it is, but I have to talk in class. And so one of the things that my supervisor in grad school, she was also kind of like, "This seems very unusual." So she did research on this and what she found was that actually, like, she gave two groups math problems, and she made one group recite their thought process out loud as they were trying to solve the problem, and the other one had to be silent. And she did this with Asian Americans and European Americans, and what she found was that Asian Americans, when they were asked to think out loud, they actually did worse. And for European Americans, they perform better when they verbalize their thoughts. And one of the things that she sort of believes is why this happens is, you know, going back, we were talking about like debate and Aristotle, and there is, and actually in French, right? I think therefore I am, is the idea that when you think you are exposing your inner thoughts, whereas in many other cultures, like for instance, if you go on a Buddhist retreat, the only way to enlightenment is like a silence. A silent meditation retreat, right? Silence is how you become more aware and more thoughtful. So very different perceptions of how you become smarter, how you think. So I think one of the big things for leadership is recognizing that there is a difference in how important talking is in different cultures. That might not have as much to do with extroversion as you think, that in some cultures talking is not as important in understanding somebody's thought process. And then the last one that I wanted to sort of challenge is this idea of high energy. What they found is that especially for North Americans, this idea of high arousal, like high-energy emotions like excitement, jubilation, right? Those are things that are much more preferred, whereas in other countries, this idea of low arousal positive emotions, sort of like contentment, satisfaction, are things that are much more preferred. They've done lots of studies looking at like children's books, like, uh, and I'll talk about a little bit about hiring, which is kind of scary, but they find that like when you have very similar preferences for either high emotion or low energy emotions, For instance, like patients trust doctors more that have the same emotional profile as their culture. So back to work, they did these hiring studies where they showed participants pictures of people with either excited faces. So it's like the excited faces are really basically they're baring their teeth. They're like smiling really, really big. And people with a neutral expression and calm. And what they found was, so they did it in Hong Kong and they did it in the US and they found that Americans saw excited candidates as more extroverted and were more likely to hire them. And Hong Kong Chinese actually saw the calm and sometimes the neutral-faced candidates as more extroverted and were also more likely to hire them. So unfortunately, the extroversion bias is still there. Like, they still see them as extroverted, therefore there's higher rates of hiring for these individuals. But the interesting part is that what extroversion looks like, how people portray extroversion, is seen very differently. One of the other things is that if we perceive or define extroversion from a very Western and very specifically an American definition of extroversion, many other cultures and also introverts get penalized because they don't talk as much or they are not as high energy as perhaps somebody that has a more American profile of extroversion. And so one of the things that I started to discuss internally with some of the teams is like, how do we redefine what leadership looks like? You know, instead of high energy, do we want leaders that are calm calm under pressure? Do we want, instead of like highly assertive, do we want leaders that are empowering? And instead of leaders that are highly talkative, do we want leaders that are very observant?
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 30:27
Right.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 30:27
So how do we start to shift the conversation? And as we talk about people that are more multicultural, how can you draw on more of those experiences to show a much more multifaceted type of leadership.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 30:43
And I think these two types of leadership are both useful but for different roles.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 30:49
Exactly. And what I would actually say for leaders is a good leader, at least in my opinion, is somebody that is highly attuned to their team. You know, like, what does influence mean? And oftentimes influencing somebody might mean being more calm in one scenario, or with somebody else it might be being a little bit more forward or more direct. So it's that ability to actually modulate different parts of yourself to allow other people to hear you. So I do think that it's more that somebody that is much more fluid and adaptable is probably going to be the better leader.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 31:36
I thought of something else as well as you were talking, is the difference in how we talk about ourselves, because I think that also differs significantly across cultures. I've come across some studies that say that in America, it's very common to state the very positive traits that you have, almost self-aggrandize, and it's expected for instance, in a professional context, you need to be like, I'm awesome. These, these are my achievements, blah, blah, blah. But in other cultures, you need to show a lot more modesty and humility. And if you talk about all your achievements, you may be perceived as arrogant.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 32:20
Yeah. And I think there's the idea of marketing yourself, like, you know, how do you make sure that everyone knows your achievements? And I definitely think that this idea of sort of self-enhancing, you know, there's a lot of positivity. And this goes back to some of the history around America in terms of American exceptionalism and all of these different historical things that happen which make Americans slightly more positive, more hopeful. Culture is always changing, but that is sort of some of the foundation. That inform some of those values. There's so many studies about East Asians and sort of like self-deprecation because it can be considered rude, especially if you don't know where the hierarchy is. One thing that I thought was so interesting marrying my husband is— my husband's Australian, and I just thought, oh, America and Australia, they're much more similar culturally speaking. But one thing that I found that was really interesting is the idea of tall poppies. And there's also a value of mateship. My husband says, like, don't be a dauber. Like, that's the worst thing that you can do, is like, don't tattletale on someone else. Like, if you see something, you're not going to snitch on them. So tall poppies, for those that don't know, is that the idea that if you stand up too high, you, you'll get cut down. So don't talk too highly about yourself if especially if there's a question of how you got there, you know, like, was it legitimate? And that to me was a really interesting realization of like how this idea of marketing yourself is very difficult. And so for many Australians, this idea of self-deprecation and sarcasm are ways that are more acceptable to talk about your achievements because it's not being a tall poppy. And so I definitely think that it's important when you are in the workforce to understand what the company culture is. So, you know, for instance, this is very important when you're working in a very American company. So even though American companies can be global, they will still transmit a lot of their cultural values in terms of like ways of working and things like that. So kind of understanding like, If I have to do something like this, like, where's the comfortable medium, right? So like in Australia, right? If you do have to talk about your accomplishments, how are you gonna do that in a way that honors the values of your culture that feels more authentic to you? And so that's one of the things that I think is interesting is that in many ways, every culture has, like, people will have to show how they've done well. But the avenues in which they do it might be very different. Some might be more acceptable than others.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 35:17
That's very useful to know about. And I think about people who have been used to do a certain way, do things a certain way for many, many years as a professional, and then they arrive in another country and the work it takes to match local expectations. It's actually a lot of work. I imagine, for instance, American going to Japan.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 35:38
Yes.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 35:39
They would need to embody a complete different picture of leadership.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 35:43
And I would say, even being a cultural psychologist, I will constantly do things that have like been offensive. Um, you know, the only difference is that being a psychologist, I can explain why they're offensive, but it's hard to recognize some of those, you know, like even for me, it's like, there's still many things that are ingrained from a cultural perspective, I think one of the things that is helpful for many people that are multicultural or moving to a different place, the ability to articulate where you're coming from and to allow people to not use their own cultural assumptions. So a good example is one of my dear friends, she's French and she's a manager. And one of the things that she'd say, so in French culture, and this starts, as you may know, from a very early age in education that like, you know, when you're answering a question, if you're wrong, the teacher will tell you very quickly that you're wrong. And that's, that's not bad. They'll just like, nope, you're wrong, you know, next person. That's not bad. Whereas that type of directness in different cultures can be seen very offensively, like, oh wow, that was like, that was, could be perceived as rude. And so one of the things that she says is like, this is the culture I come from. When I give feedback, sometimes it can be perceived as very direct, but my intention is actually, you know, I see you as strong and capable, and I'm giving you this feedback with care, with dignity, in the way that I know how. So even though she recognizes this and she tries to adjust herself, she also recognizes that this is a default setting that she has. One of my directors often says that as long as you have people's trust, you can be your culturally authentic self. People will not misunderstand your behavior. And so I think that's one of the really interesting things and why I love talking about culture is once you're able to explain some of your behaviors and you know how people might misinterpret you and you can explain this is what my intention is and this is what this behavior means in my culture, it's a lot easier for people to be more open-minded and recognize, oh, you do things slightly differently from me, but we have the same goal, we have the same end.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 38:07
I think it's really good advice to think that you need to somehow explain the cultural standpoint from which you do the work that you do so that people can have more empathy and understanding, and you can find a common ground. There is another self-distinction that I want us to discuss. I think I've listened to a podcast where you were speaking about that. It's the distinction between the static self and the more fluid self. So I think that one is about that we have an essence inside of us that remains stable over time, and the other is there isn't such a thing. We are completely fluid, and even the self might even be an illusion.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 38:51
Yeah, so I think the sort of this static sense of self, it has different implications, right? Like, one of them is, you know, like the idea— and, and this is also more Western— is like even just talking about traits. I am this, I am that. This idea of like, I am who I am wherever I go. You know, like this is what it means to be authentic. So I think when we talk about these different selves, the interesting part is what is the definition of authenticity and how do we see it in other people? And so when you think like, I am this person all the time, it means that when you, you change, you look like somebody else, you act like something else. People see you as untrustworthy, right? Like, wait a minute, like, you're like this in one context and you're like this in another, when in fact we all do this. So one of the things that I tried to explain when I used to teach cultural psychology is that, especially to 18-year-olds, like, the way that I would explain it is like, who you are and how you act in a library isn't the same as how you would act act in a club. You wouldn't act the same way to your grandma as you would maybe to your siblings or to maybe even to your parents. Depends, right? Um, but we all have this ability to sort of adjust ourselves depending on the situation, but how much we adjust ourselves and how important it is to remain fixed might differ, whereas in where that self is more fluid, the idea of I am this person in this context. So with my friends at a café, I'm like this, but I'm a very different person when I'm talking to my professor. And seeing those very different— acting differently, those two things can be the same person. We talked about dialectics earlier, right? And so depending on which culture you're from, you may see that as still being authentic, or you might not see it as being authentic, which can be hard when we are trying to form trust with one another and recognizing that like the context in many cultures, like collectivistic cultures, the context is very important. How I adjust, how I shift is going to be very important. Even in French, There are a lot of unwritten rules around formality. When do I tutoyer? When do I vouvoyer? There are a lot of things where you need to adjust your language depending on who the person is, what context you are in, what you want from the other person. So I think those are two things to kind of keep in mind, especially for people where they believe that they are one way all the time. You can be authentic. And look slightly differently depending on the context because in some cultures that is a necessity. And we talked about this actually a while ago and we were talking about frame switching.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 42:03
Yes.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 42:03
And so in many ways, sometimes people recognize that they're switching, they are changing the cultural norms, like they see that they're in a new context and they're gonna change themselves because because that's what is necessary. And then other times they just do it naturally. And for people that are very multicultural, this sometimes occurs without knowing. A really fun example is actually Singaporeans. So I was talking to one of my friends because when she's talking to clients, she changes her language, the way that she speaks, her body mannerisms, everything will change. And then when she's talking to friends She's completely different language set, different expressions, different body language. And in fact, she changes her accent. And I was like, did you recognize that you did that? And she said, did what? The context necessitates that. And because Singaporeans are so multicultural and they move in many different contexts, it is natural for them to shift one way or the other and not necessarily think about it.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 43:12
Do you experience it in your own life as well, this shifting? And are you aware of it as you do it?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 43:17
I'm definitely more American in the sense that I shift, but I can't shift very well. So like, I've definitely had a lot of like embarrassing things because like I haven't shifted enough in like the context that is necessary in Asia, but I've definitely, I've experienced it being in Singapore actually to see it. It as I enter into a room, and once I speak, everyone changes into very formal English because I can't speak in the more casual Singaporean dialects. But I will say I definitely see it when I go back to the US, how I would have to change some of my mannerisms and also how I'm perceived, because everyone in Asia thinks I'm extremely extroverted. Like highly talkative, highly energetic, but actually when I go back to the US, I've been told that I seem shy. I was told by some of my professors that I need to speak up more, and so I almost feel like either I'm too much of one thing in different contexts.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 44:24
Ah, that's so interesting. You know that for me it's different. I feel that my extraverted self is reinforced in France. I think that French really enjoy a little bit the theatrical, a bit dramatic, high emotions. And I tend to be a bit more like that, very emotionally expressive. And I tame myself down in an Australian context or English context where I know that displaying that level of intensity may be seen as eccentric. And even something that is interesting is that the term eccentric in French is kind of like a quality, you know, it's a cool quality about someone. And here I heard, like, it took me a while to actually understand that eccentricity is you're a bit crazy, you know, and I didn't understand that when someone commented and said, oh, what an eccentric person. To me it was, oh yeah, okay, they're just interesting. But no, here it's actually you're too much.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 45:26
I fully embrace the eccentricity, but I totally get what you like. Like, what is the culturally appropriate level of emotionality? And I, yeah, I definitely see sort of that, or I see when I break it. I think that's the other thing. Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 45:43
And I think that when you are not aware of the fact that it is about cultural differences, there is a place for resentment where you're like, why are they not liking me? Or there was, um, I think in my mind I was like, oh, they are emotionally repressed. No, it's just that the culture is putting more emphasis on politeness and being a little bit less transparent and direct in the way we express emotions. And it took me a while to be at peace with that. I don't know if you've had a similar process, a moment where you were initially quite angry at the difference, and then you understood that it wasn't personal, it was cultural, and it gave place for more understanding?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 46:28
Ah, that's a great question. I feel like I've experienced that many, many times. One of the things that I found really interesting is, and this is purely anecdotal, I'm like waiting for a cultural psychologist to study this, is that especially in the US, like the closer you get to somebody, the more you really pay attention to the person's feelings. So like, there's always like that meme of like, does this make me look fat? Like, and it's like a picture of somebody like wearing a dress, right? And like every best friend is always gonna be like, it make you look amazing. Like, of course, don't say that. Right. They will really, really take care of how that person feels. Um, and that's how they show care. That's how you show intimacy. Whereas what I found is, um, especially like anybody in the audience that comes from like a Chinese family, like, or an Asian family, like when you are very close, people are brutally honest. So like I would have like my grandma would be like, you're kind of looking fat today. Or like she would tell me like, oh, I don't like this or that. And she'd be very, very like very honest, but not in a way like I want to explain, like it wasn't to be hurtful. She's not doing it because she wants to make me feel awful. She's doing it because she's like— and, and I didn't understand that before. As I been in Asia more, what I realized, I think that is happening, is that when you are that close— so like in everyday life, for instance, take where there's a lot of rules around how you behave, like in Japan, right? Everyone has to be very polite to each other. The farther you are from each other, the more polite you have to be. But as you actually get closer, the more real you can be to the other person. I can be very, very honest with you because you understand me and you can take it. And also, I care about you. No one else will tell you these types of things. So it's up to me to tell you there's spinach in your teeth because someone else that's not as close to you will be too polite to do so. So that's one of the things where I think when I was growing up, I was like, I was like, man, like, why is everyone so brutal in my family? And now actually when I see it now, it's just like, no, actually it's the definition of being intimate. Whereas the American definition of being intimate is being kinder and kinder and gentler and gentler. And in at least my perception of in Asian culture, the closer you get, the kind thing to do is to be honest and to be real. So that's one of the things where I was like definitely misunderstood people's intent. And I think I've redefined what that meant and it definitely makes me feel less like, less threatened or defensive because like you see a lot of people, like they're not as defensive as like I think I would be defensive. And I was like, why is everyone so chill about this? And I think it's because of that.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 49:26
Yeah. I love that honesty is respect. In this cultural context, but honesty in another culture might be less important than being kind. And so it's about really prioritizing certain values over some others. And I think in France we have that where it's like the directness, honesty means even when we are debating, we say things like, I totally disagree. I absolutely, totally disagree. And it's almost a mark of respect that you are engaged in the conversation. But you wouldn't use that type of language here. You wouldn't say absolutely, completely. You would minimise. I quite disagree, or, you know, like minimisers instead of using this aggravating language. And it took me time to understand that I needed to change the way I even express myself in this country. In Australia, saying I totally disagree is really brutal here, but I don't quite see it in that way. I would say more like that now, but it's funny. The journey.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 50:30
I was gonna say like, it reminds me of the communication style is a lot more subtle in, like, for instance, in the UK, I worked for a UK company and I definitely misunderstood the signals because they would say like, hmm, I'm not sure that that's, um, that's, that's very surprising. That's very interesting. And I, didn't realize that that meant that's bad, um, because they're going to be much more subtle. Like, they're going to give you a hint and be like, take it so I don't have to say it like right in your face. And so, but I, I wouldn't pick up the hint, so I'd be like, oh, it seems like it's— everything's okay. And it definitely wasn't okay. And I would say like, you pick up on a very interesting difference in communication style of either like strong directness or indirect, like indirectness, like a signal. Like we talked about face, protecting face, like people that want to protect face will give you a signal so that everyone's like, we understand, we understand. Everyone walks away without being stabbed, you know? So I think for me coming from a much more direct culture, I'm not picking up those cues, so I'm completely misunderstanding it. Whereas another person who's British would be like, I got it. You're not happy. I'll go back and change it. And everyone gets to keep their dignity.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 51:56
I think that when you are multicultural, you have to learn to read in between the lines a lot more. You know, is it really what they meant?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 52:05
Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 52:07
Yeah. You have to do a lot of that. And another thing that I really want us to talk about I know that you're very interested in the way AI shapes the way we communicate. And I think that the fact that we outsource so much of our communication to AI those days is making me wonder whether it's destroying our authentic individual voices. We sound all so polished when we write articles, when we write posts on social media. To the point where I personally feel quite concerned because I feel that we are losing some personality, some— it doesn't sound human. It sounds like a machine and it's in fact a machine that has written the post. And yeah, there is like this authenticity that gets lost. I don't know if you agree that, you know, it's becoming so polished that Is the concept of self being changed as a result of this outsourcing?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 53:16
Oh, interesting. Does the concept of self change? I feel like, um, one, it would have to do with how embedded you are with AI. And like, one of the things that I always find really interesting, so actually our memories are degrading a little bit because we You can always look something up. And so my question was, you know, like what happens to us with AI? So if search is sort of like our outsourced memory, what is AI? And for me, it could potentially be critical thinking. So I think AI is a really interesting tool as long as we recognize and retain our critical thinking, right? We can use it to actually help us critically think better. So I, I feel like how are you using AI determines a lot of how AI influences you. So are you driving AI or is AI driving you? I think that's one really big question. I think the other one is what I'm hoping is that as AI gets more popular, it actually will learn beyond, I think, some of the datasets which are much more Western-based. And so how do you account for that cultural nuance? Because an AI might say, oh yeah, it's your friend, be super direct. Or like, oh, it's your friend, maybe you should actually adjust the way that you talk, right? Like AI is implicitly being taught certain cultural norms and trying to provide advice based on those cultural norms. And so Hopefully at least AI will start to recognize that not all of those norms are shared by the users that they're working with and to pay attention to the way in which people are expressing themselves. But I, I also just think people do like AI-generated responses, but the second that they know that they're AI-generated, it actually harms their perception of the sender. And so in many ways, I do think that people have caught on. They try to tweak things or adjust things to provide more of that human imperfection, because it is important from a connection point of view that my words are mine, that I'm transmitting to you, and I haven't sort of had somebody else do it for me.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 55:46
Do you think that AI will be able to generate authenticity? Because it's that, like, are we going to be able to outsource our authentic voice, our authenticity, to AI? And should it be the case though? Like, is it— I find that there is a loss somehow.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 56:06
I think authenticity means being able to say exactly what you what to say. Being very clear and being heard and being authentic means what I'm thinking and what I'm feeling, I get to transmit that the way that I want to. Will AI be able to do that? That's, in my opinion, only with the permission of the user. So they read it back and go, "That is exactly what I wanted to say." I find that it's a little bit hard to answer depending on why you're using it and who's using it because sometimes, like for instance, I'm a native English speaker, I'm using AI, there's many words that I can use and many words that I would use that are authentic to how I speak, but for many people, many colleagues that I know, they are often using AI because English is not their first language and they want to be understood and it's hard to do that. And so when they can sort of say like, this is what I want to say, but I can't find the words to say it. And then AI can sort of say like, I think this is what you want to say, that that is the authentic thing that they wanted to say that they can send to somebody to be understood. That I think could be authenticity, but it has to be agreed upon first. Like, the person has to read and go like, that is what I want to say. I think that, you know, what you're talking about is like, do I have a point of view before I start using AI? And oftentimes, if I don't really have a point of view and then AI goes like, this is what you're thinking, and you're like, oh, maybe that's what I'm thinking, then all of a sudden it's like, who has constructed what? And I think that's where this idea of like, what does it mean to be authentic? And is AI writing something that is not genuine to the, what the person is feeling or thinking? That's, I think, where things get a little bit fuzzy, which is why I think that like retaining our critical thinking skills, having a dialogue and saying like, can you think of a counterargument for this? Why did you say that this, like, why did you arrive at this conclusion? Have you thought about this? Right? Asking AI, that's a form of dialogue rather than like, give me the answer. Okay, goodbye. And not, not thinking about it. That's where I think authenticity starts to become shaky because you are not questioning the answer and you're not refining it and you're not putting your own perception and your spin on it and really thinking clearly about what that answer means. Yeah.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 58:43
So it's not about whether or not we should use AI, it's about how we use it and interact with it. On the topic of cultural nuance, I've read something this morning that said that most of the large language models were using English data, and so that there was a risk that American or, you know, more globally Western norms and communication styles were going to be globalized. Do you think that is a reality?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 59:15
I definitely think at this point in time, you know, many of the big language models have been trained on, I mean, they big datasets, but I think that there is a bias in many ways. Although I have been seeing, you know, for instance, how do you get different cultures to adopt AI? It's still like a business question, right? Like businesses still want people to use their software, so they have to make it familiar and recognizable to other cultures. So for instance, like having a training or data center in Japan, for instance, where having a lot of cultural nuance and how you engage, how you speak to different people, what are the cultural norms, those are very important. And so I've definitely seen different companies actually recognize that if they want people to adopt, not just like the first adopters and like super techie people to adopt new technology like this. They actually have to be much more localized, much more culturally nuanced. And so I think the, the problem is in many of these instances, not a lot of it is documented, which is why they're now forced to have people from different cultures actually use and train the models because many of the documented datasets have been used already, which might be Western biased. And what I find very interesting is, you know, language changes so fast. If you try to keep up with Gen Alpha slang, you know very quickly that nobody knows what they're talking about. And it's because language morphs and shifts very fast. Cultures shift. What is popular? Popular to say now is not popular what was said like before. And so I think AI has to get faster at recognizing those things. Otherwise, to your point, it'll be very antiquated models by a very biased section of the globe. So I definitely think that is on people's radar. Is it going fast enough? I'm not sure. I mean, another question that we wouldn't get into is like, should it be going faster? Is another discussion, but I would say that in order for people to truly benefit from AI, it must be more culturally inclusive. And I think that it is a beginning discussion that people are starting to look at.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:01:41
Yeah. I think it's kind of concerning if our use of AI makes us more similar in a way that destroys destroys nuances and individual differences that make the beauty of our world, you know.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:01:58
What makes me kind of hopeful is that culture is partially constructed through dialogue and experience, and that sometimes it is now more and more happening online, but there's a lot of things that happen offline where AI, at least for now, as of this podcast, has not infiltrated. And I've definitely seen trends among like Gen Z and Gen Alpha where they purposely don't have their phones, like they're not allowed to look at their phones, right? There's more of an understanding of some of the dangers of not being able to modulate your online interaction and some of the addictive qualities of of some of these technologies where people are recognizing that it, it can hamper the connections that people make. And so, yeah, kind of like what I was saying before is that when people know that you've used AI to talk to them, it changes their perception of you in a way that hurts trust. And so I think that there is still this feeling of like, in order for us to really trust each other, it can't be completely mediated through AI. And when we get to the extremes, I think that that is something where we would have to deal with, like, what does it mean to, like, flatten those things out? But on the other hand, like, how does that help people? How do people decide how they're going to use the technology and use it in more productive ways? So, like, even I would say, I might say something and I write it down and go, "Can you tell me if there is any probability that I could offend somebody? I'm writing to somebody from this culture." Where it can provide you advice of like, well, usually you would use this honorific when you start the thing, or usually this person is of this rank, they might want bullet points versus something else. So in some ways, can it be used to help teach you to be a little bit more culturally sensitive? I hope so. But that's the thing is like, it depends on the person and how they want to use it. And I think the slippery slope that we get into is that if people just sort of cognitively turn off and go like, I'll just get AI to do it, and then they don't think about it, that's where I think we run into this sort of flattening where people are not filtering what they're sharing and what they're sending. And I think that there will always be culture teaching you something in the background, unless culture is completely overwhelmed by AI, but I don't think that that will happen yet. Culture will still have a very driving force on the values and the beliefs that you have. And hopefully AI can't squash those things. Not yet, at least.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:04:52
Yeah. And I assume that by interacting with the machine in that critical thinking way, We can also shape AI, you know, we also have the responsibility to shape it perhaps, you know?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:05:05
Yes. Yeah. And so that, that's the thing is like, if we are not curious, if we are not questioning, then we slip into— it's the same with TV, right? If we are not more conscious and aware and intentional about what we watch, we can watch, as my sons call it, brain rot. And I'll have a very different outcome to somebody that says like, I want to do this, I want to learn this, and I'm going to be critical about the things that I watch and more specific about what I want to watch. That's different. It takes more cognitive energy to do that one than it does to just watch Brain Rot. And so I think that's the crossroads that we're in right now is like, how much effort do we want to put into preserving our critical thinking skills and our relationship building skills.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:05:56
I love what you said about AI. Is AI driving you or are you driving AI? I think it sums it up perfectly. Do you have a final word of wisdom for migrants that have been navigating two different cultures? Perhaps there is an insight from cultural side psychology that you can share with us that could help us or help them in their journey?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:06:21
I would say, maybe I sound like a broken record at this point, but I think that for people going to a new country, seeing their cultural identity, knowing that it will change because it is affected by your experiences, but also recognizing that it a skill. It is a power to be able to hold multiple cultures at the same time. I think when I was growing up, that was seen as like a curse, like, "Oh, you have to choose. There's only one or the other." And I think, you know, like the biggest thing that I was talking about before, this idea of holding two things at the same time and knowing both are true is really important because it does become a superpower. You are a bridge between two different cultures, it means that you get to decide how you want to approach many different situations because in some ways we know that there are certain cultural values that harm people or they need to be thought of differently, and when you can sort of see that, you know, I talked about like the little fish in the fishbowl, when you can see the color of the water You can identify, how do I want to approach this? I have more tools in my toolkit because I have all these different things that I know to be culturally relevant. How do I use them? And so what I would say is seeing your cultural values as an anchor and seeing the cultures that you inhabit as a way to learn something new and to question your own values and question your own culture. It starts to help redefine what your identity is and how you wanna show up and how you wanna hold that culture. I think a lot of us are kind of blind to our own culture. Mm-hmm. And so moving to a different culture, it means that you actually have your eyes wide open. And I think that's a wonderful thing. And I, I wish I had known that earlier. And that every self is your authentic self. I think that's also Another one that I would impart.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:08:35
Yeah, it's not because you change depending on the culture that your authenticity is less. What I love is when you say, you know, that culture needs to be questioned. And I think that the beauty of holding different cultures is that you have more options for the self. But at the same time, you know, it goes back to this multiple self. Selves, and they're all authentic, but you have more options for who you want to be, and you can shift between those selves. And I think it's, as you say, a strength.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:09:09
Yeah, and it's still always you.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:09:12
Yeah. Do you have a book, a movie, or any other piece of content that inspired you lately and you would like to recommend?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:09:21
Ah, I mean, like, I always love I always— if anyone's interested in cultural psychology, I always recommend Geography of Thought by Richard Nisbett. He's one of the early cultural psychologists. I think that's always one of the first ones where it does talk about a lot of the things that I've been mentioning. The Culture Map is definitely another one from a business point of view where, you know, there's a lot of different ways in which you can sort of have a framework for culture, that's one of them. The other, other two, and this is less for like education purposes, is I recently read two books, one by Ocean Vuong called On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous, and the other one was by Michelle Zauner and it's called Crying in H Mart. And they're both very beautifully written experiences of what it means to be a child of an immigrant and that sort of cultural divide. And so like definitely being an Asian American, it very much speaks to me because it's like perspective of somebody being caught between two cultures and how do they rectify those two cultures.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:10:31
So, ah, I love it. You had actually four recommendations. I've read only one of these four, The Culture Map, which I believe is really, really important when you work overseas. Like it was a bit of a revelation to me when I when I first read it, I was like, wow, that's why I definitely made that mistake. And so I think it's definitely a tool for every professional. And I'm really interested in the 3 others that you mentioned. Any guests that you would like to hear on this podcast?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:11:02
I would say, actually, I mean, I was telling you, like, I'm so interested in, you know, like the second generation kids experience, but I feel like, oh, I, it's, it's more for me to sort of be like, oh yeah, I feel that too. I think the really interesting one that I would love to hear more perspectives on is third culture kids. So third culture kids are children that their parents have a different culture than the country that they're in, but they don't subscribe to the culture that they're in. So my children are third culture kids. They're born in Singapore, mother's American, father is Australian. They don't really know what it means to be American, Australian, or Singaporean. So they are like global citizens. All of their friends are also from different parts of the world, so they don't really have a sense of what it means to have a national identity. So like, how do you navigate a world where you feel like you're always sort of floating out of it? You can always see it, but you're not in it.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:12:12
And how does that manifest in your kids? Do you have a little, uh, life example where you see them and you're like, wow, that's what it's like not to belong at a national identity level?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:12:26
I think, yeah. I mean, Well, one, they have my accent. As much as I tried to push Bluey and every other Australian thing on them, they don't have an Australian accent. Their views of America are very similar to somebody that's never lived in America. Like some of the stereotypes about like how unsafe it is and things like that. Things that I hear other people tell me, I'm like, oh, so there's not necessarily the sense of pride because they just can't identify with it. And when they think about their relatives, their grandparents, they don't see them as American. They just see them as, you know, grandma and grandpa that just live in this place here, like as if it's a different city in a different region of Singapore.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:13:12
As a parent, I think it would be quite difficult sometimes to have kids from a different culture because they don't have the same references. There would be a lot lost in translation.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:13:25
Yeah. And I think also their education and who they talk to is so different from my background, right? Like they are with children that are also from all these different parts of the world. So none of them really have the sort of this sense of, and a lot of them, because they're expats, they move out in and out. So they're constantly having to say hello and goodbye to all of these new people. So, you know, when I grew up, I was with people that I was with when I was in kindergarten, like all the way through. And we all watched the same TV shows, talked about the same things. So there is definitely this shared sense of something. Whereas I know that as my children get older, there will be more things where I will just have to say like, I've never experienced that before. Like, what is that? That maybe issues or problems that I will have never faced that they will have to face and vice versa. So I find it fascinating because no one third culture kid ever has the same experience, but they have similar patterns to them in terms of how they see themselves, how they navigate the world. And I always find that fascinating because they know no different, but they are also extremely flexible and adaptable, and they do it effortlessly.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:14:44
Yeah, I've actually had a couple of guests that identify as being third culture kids, but I think what would be interesting is having a conversation with both a parent and a teenager and see how the interaction would be, you know?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:14:58
Exactly.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:15:01
So I have two final sets of questions that I ask all my guests at the end of the interview. And the first one is, when I say the word migrant, what are the words that instinctively come to your mind?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:15:16
Oh, I, I thought about this. One thing that I would say is I find the word migrant to be such a loaded word because there's so many assumptions that come with it that are class-based, status-based. Like legitimacy-based. And when you say migrant versus immigrant versus expat, they're all technically people that have crossed a border of some sort, but we see them in different ways, we treat them in different ways, we assume very different things about them. And so when I was thinking about the word migrant, I was thinking, do we choose a word that's less loaded? Or do we reclaim that word? You know, is it something where we're all just newcomers? You know, because when I think about a migrant, an immigrant, or an expat, all of them have to be adaptable. All of them have to be resilient and pretty courageous, because I do think that, like, to leave something familiar to go to something uncertain and unfamiliar is a huge leap for anybody. So adaptability, resilience, and courage are things that I think of for anyone that crosses any border. I wish that we didn't have words that also had assumptions on class and status. And I feel like in many ways the word migrant it demeans the person's experience when it is attached to status.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:16:55
It's so true, particularly the difference between expat, which supposes that, you know, you are this very, this elite professional that just ends up working in another place versus a migrant where we assume that they have nothing to offer and they are just taking and not giving anything to the country that they are migrating into is very interesting. My last question, because I know that we spent so much time and I'm conscious of your time. As someone who's lived at the intersection of many cultures, do you have a place that you call home and what does home mean to you?
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:17:36
Also, I'm really— it sounds so simple and I feel like it's such a hard question to answer. I asked my dad this because my dad lives in the US and he's from Hong Kong, that he goes back to Hong Kong and it's like everything feels familiar and unfamiliar at the same time, which is dialectics right there, right? Like it's two things that— it's a very mixed feeling. So I would actually say that where I feel the most comfortable is actually in that in-between. And when I find people in that in-between, like other people that are in the in-between, I feel like we— there's like this shared understanding. I remember somebody told— I hate this when people say like, oh, I want you to meet this person. She's also American. Because I'm always like, that doesn't mean we'll get along. But this time we actually did get along, but it was because we were both children of immigrants and So it's like that feeling of like knowing that you're caught in the middle of something and you have very different experiences and you don't have to explain yourself. I think where I find home is when I can— like we talked about being eccentric— I find home to be where I can be strange and complicated and silly, and I can choose when to frame switch, right? I can choose to be this, I can choose to be that, and not necessarily to make other people comfortable, but it's just because it's something that I've done and I don't have to feel like I have to explain myself. Like, the people around me accept me exactly as I am. So I definitely feel like with my family, like, third culture children, two people from different cultures, like, we get to just be our very complex and culturally distinct selves. And when I find other people where that's also the case, I feel more at home.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:19:41
Hmm. That's a beautiful answer. It's almost home is not a physical place. It's a feeling. It's people that you are with. It's, uh, it's really dependent on whether you can be yourself. Your multiple selves.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:19:55
Yeah, it's permission to be my multiple selves.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:20:00
That's a beautiful concluding word. So for those who would like to get in touch with you or keep up to date with all the things that you are doing, where should they go? Should they go on LinkedIn or—
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:20:12
so I have a blog, um, Psychobabble, P-S-Y-K-O-B-A-B-B-L-E. On Medium, and I'll post there, and then I will always share it on LinkedIn. So, you can find me in those two places.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:20:28
Okay. Yeah, it's actually just for reference for the audience. It's actually how I met you. I actually read one of your articles around leadership and the extraversion bias, and I was like, wow, what an interesting topic. I really want to connect with you. So, you know, that's definitely a place to find you. Find a lot of your very interesting work which span across many different topics. So I feel that it makes for a very interesting conversation. And, uh, yeah, all of the insights that you brought to the conversation today, I'm really grateful for. I think I'm going to have to reflect on a lot of what you said, but you definitely gave me a glimpse of what cultural psychology is about and why it is so fascinating. So thank you so much for being my guest today.
Deborah Ko (Guest) · 1:21:19
Oh, it's my pleasure. I loved it. Thank you so much.
Emma Bellamy-Dodd (Host) · 1:21:22
Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Deborah. If the content of our discussion resonated with you in some way, please share this episode with a friend, leave us a review, or add stars in the rating of the show. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram or LinkedIn. It really, really helps this community grow. In 2 weeks, I will be interviewing Sarah Aachi, the author of Brown Female Doctor. She will unpack the subtle ways in which racism and sexism have impacted her life, what it's like to have your identity and legitimacy questioned in certain spaces and professions, and most importantly, how she's learned to navigate and rise above it all. So stay tuned. I was your host, Emma Bellamy, and I cannot wait to bring you on another journey from there to here.
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