Dean Lloyd · 49 min
A suburban teenager's curiosity about heroin spiralled into armed robbery, incarceration, and a twelve-year addiction, and then became the unlikely foundation for a fellowship-winning mission to close a prison.
Hear this story
Dean Lloyd was a suburban kid good at sport, comfortable and unremarkable, until a knee injury at 17 ended his rugby league career. Bored and curious, he spent three weeks hunting for heroin, found it, and his girlfriend asked for some too when he came home that first night. What began as recreational experimentation became a 12-year addiction that pulled him through rehabs, armed robbery, and prison. On Boxing Day 1999, desperate and broke after burning through money from a previous job, he held up a corner store 100 metres from his parents' house in a car registered in his name. He was arrested two days later and sentenced to four years, with a non-parole period of two years. He proposed to his girlfriend on the escort van ride to jail. She said yes.
Prison transformed him from someone who described himself as a lover, not a fighter, into an angry, hypervigilant man. Survival inside meant armoring yourself against disrespect, and that armor didn't come off when he got out. After his release, he and his wife had a daughter while both were still using heavily. The moment the child was 18 months old, something broke open in him. He called his parents and told them he was coming home to get clean, or he would kill himself and the child. He flew to Western Australia and had naltrexone surgically implanted because no rehab would take a single father. By the time his daughter was three, he was completely drug-free.
Thirteen years out of prison, skilled and wanting to work in community services, Dean kept hitting closed doors because of his criminal record. After a job offer was rescinded because his name came up as an "unsatisfactory person" in the system, he fought Corrective Services at the Human Rights Commission for three years and won. Now he works supporting men exiting prison, has studied counseling and community services, and has been awarded a fellowship to study prison systems across America. His goal is to close Long Bay Prison and build safer communities instead. What he has learned is that how you feel right now will not be how you feel in a week. Life moves in cycles, and he had to hang in long enough to let it be different.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses addiction & recovery, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • SMART Recovery Australia (addiction): smartrecoveryaustralia.com.au • ReachOut: au.reachout.com
“it's all over now”
“prison for me was the most dehumanizing process ever”
“I have understood the value of personal responsibility”
The hero, today
Dean understands his persistent effort to find heroin in the first place as evidence of his capacity for consistency, which later became the same quality that helped him rebuild his life. Prison changed Dean from someone who was 'a lover, not a fighter' into a violent man because survival inside required armoring yourself; that anger still flares when he feels disrespected, and he has to stay aware of it. The most important thing his second wife did was believe in him when others had given up; that belief saved his life, and its loss in divorce still grieves him deeply. Dean does not consider himself 'clean' in the sense of being permanently cured; he knows that if heroin were put in front of him, he could not guarantee what would happen, and shame about harm he caused drives him more than triumph over addiction. The guarantee Dean gives to anyone struggling is that how you feel right now will not be how you feel in a week; life moves in cycles, and he had to hang in long enough to let it be different.
Yes. Dean Lloyd is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Dean understands his persistent effort to find heroin in the first place as evidence of his capacity for consistency, which later became the same quality that helped him rebuild his life.
Prison changed Dean from someone who was 'a lover, not a fighter' into a violent man because survival inside required armoring yourself; that anger still flares when he feels disrespected, and he has to stay aware of it.
The most important thing his second wife did was believe in him when others had given up; that belief saved his life, and its loss in divorce still grieves him deeply.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 00:03
Welcome to the Kintsugi Heroes podcast, where we share inspirational stories of everyday people going through different challenges and how they overcome them. Please be aware that the story you're about to hear may have moments of deeply felt emotions and personal experiences. If anything you hear has a triggering effect, please reach out to someone who can help keep you safe. If you love this conversation, please like and share it with your friends so we can continue to share more inspiration and hope to as many people as possible. Now listen up for our next hero's story. What I really love about this conversation with Dean Lloyd is his bravery, really, for showing up, coming forward, sharing his story. And it's a story that It's really The Road Less Traveled, and it's a story of his life journey of addiction, but also ending up in the prison system, which most of us, we have no insight about. And I love how Dean has been able to own his own struggles. He's been able to own everything he went through. And what a story, like the detail he gave and the honesty and the brutality of the moments in his journey that just broke him. And it was a tough one to hear, yet I so enjoyed it. I was inspired by who he's become and who he's becoming. And I think that's the most important thing when we hear these journeys and we go through our own journeys. It's about the journey itself. It's who we become on the way. He's all about change in our prison system now, and hearing him talk about this bigger purpose that he has, just so inspiring. Anyway, I'll leave that to you. Listen to this wonderful conversation, this story with Dean Lloyd. Enjoy. Well, here we are. Um, I'm Aveline Clarke. This is another episode of the Kintsugi Heroes podcast, and I've got Dean Lloyd with me today. Dean, how are you doing?
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 02:20
Um, yeah, pretty good. It's been a busy day, but, um, yeah, good, good to just be at home and feel a bit settled.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 02:29
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Dean does not consider himself 'clean' in the sense of being permanently cured; he knows that if heroin were put in front of him, he could not guarantee what would happen, and shame about harm he caused drives him more than triumph over addiction.
This conversation includes a kid good at sport, not school, three weeks to find heroin, girlfriend says 'where's mine', the oktoberfest plan that failed, proposed in the back of a police van and the bikie sergeant of arms offers protection.
I know that feeling, I really do. So I appreciate you coming along, joining me here to share your story. I know that, um, you know, sometimes these things— it's not an easy thing to talk about our past or aspects of our lives, and You know, it's, it's something that I really appreciate.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 02:49
No, thank you. I really respect, um, and value the invitation to have, um, been allowed to come and tell, tell my story. So thank you.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 02:59
So let's get started then. Could you take me back to, I guess, at the start? Like, let's go back to the beginning, uh, as in what, what was going on for you in life? At the time, or just before, um, I guess the challenge or adversity hit you, whatever it is that you went through?
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 03:20
Yeah, um, so I had a what I would consider a relatively, um, good childhood. Um, didn't really want for anything. My parents, um, you know, my dad was a real estate agent in the '80s, so, uh, and he was a self-made man. So he knew what it was like to have nothing and come up and was able to provide everything that he never got. And, um, was really not that interested at school, um, at all. Um, and I think that was just maturity and there was stuff like hindsight's a wonderful thing, but just didn't have any interest. However, I was very good at sport. So that was the reason why I was allowed to stay at school, essentially. Captain of the football team, stuff like that. I was a prefect as well. And it was around, um, about 17 or 18, and I was playing rugby league and I injured my knee. I snapped my cruciate ligament. And as part of that process, I was dabbling here and there and, you know, smoking a bit of weed, what some might refer to as recreational drugs now. But at that recovery process, prior to that, I was heavily into sport. It was something that I don't think needed to keep me focused, but it just did because I enjoyed it. It was something I was passionate about, something that I did and loved doing, team environment, all that sort of stuff. And then when that was taken away and it was a— I had to get my knee reconstructed, and that was a 12-month prospect at that stage. And during that time, I I started to take more drugs, um, and experiment and, and was very curious. I was a curious kid. I still am very curious, I would say. Um, and finally fell into heroin and really sought it, um, essentially at the start, uh, unknowing, like, you know, this, uh, this white kid from the suburbs, um, you know, uh, heading into the city trying to, um, trying to score heroin. And in, in the beginning, it took me like 3 weeks of concerted effort to actually get it. So I was persistent and consistent, um, which, you know, later down the track you'll learn about the value of that as well, uh, or, you know, talk about that. So what—
Aveline Clark (Host) · 05:50
why did you want it so much? What— why were you persistently trying to find it?
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 05:56
It's, it's not a— I haven't really come to— I think it was just curiosity, as in it was somewhat romanticized at the time. Um, you know, I don't really want to blame anyone else for that, but for that sort of, uh, you know, because I could say I was listening to music and it was that and blah blah blah, or, you know, I was hanging around with the crew and it was that. So I, I I really have understood the value of personal responsibility. So, um, yeah, I won't go into the details, but it was just a random Monday night in Newtown when I first got ahold of it. And, um, it was at Sydney Punk's headquarters and like, I'm not a, like, I don't know how it's just, that was fate that delivered me that hand. And, um, it was a room full of people. Like 50 people. And, um, that was my first experience with heroin, like injecting it straight to injecting and not smoking it. Um, and I remember, um, I remember a voice in the background and it just rings in my ears still. And, and so my mate was there and he said, what was it like? And I said, oh, it's the best thing in the world. And there was a voice in the background that said, it's all over now. And I was just like, at the time, no, just whatever. And that was when I was about 18 and, you know, had the opportunity to go back and play league at a high level, um, and just never went back to training, never went back, and went on a trajectory of, um, heroin addiction for quite a few years, probably in total probably about 12 years.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 07:49
Were you working?
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 07:51
At the start was working. I had a girl, so I was living with a girlfriend. It was Monday night, we come home from U-Town, she's like, where have you been? And I said, oh, we've been out doing this. And she said, well, where's mine? And it was on, it just went from there. And we were able to sustain a supporter habit sort of for probably about 12 months. And then we had the grand idea to— working and, you know, supporting it through the sale of other illicit substances as well. So sort of borderline criminal behavior, but not sort of criminal masterminds, if you know what I mean. Just, um, yeah. So then we decided that if we went to the Oktoberfest in Munich, um, that would cure our heroin addiction. And this is in the middle of Cabramatta heyday too. So this is like when it was like an epidemic. And I don't know if you know about that, but, um, yeah, you like— people, dealers would fight over you in the street. To try and sell you drugs. It was— I've never— well, yeah, I don't think I'll ever experience it. I wouldn't want to experience anything like that again because it was, it was a terrible scene. People were dying left, right, and center. Um, yeah, it's really sad to look back upon it. But, um, so yeah, made this decision to go to the Oktoberfest in Munich, and, um, I remember landing in Frankfurt and I think within— we landed about 7 o'clock and within by 8:30 we're smoking crack in a phone box with some random dude we didn't even know. And traveled around for a bit, sort of, you know, wobbled here, there and everywhere. And this is sort of my childhood sweetheart from school. We're going to get— do the Europe thing and come back and get married, living, you know, in the suburbs, somewhat of a charmed life. And yeah, traveled around, stopped in Amsterdam, lived there for a bit. And then went on to London and she decided to pull up stumps and stopped and I couldn't quite get to it. And I travel, I caught a plane to the furthest I've ever traveled in my life. To score heroin from Heathrow to Cabramatta because the, the heroin was different over there. It was a different process of using it and blah blah blah. But, um, so yeah, I left my childhood sweetheart, um, for what I would consider and would have said at that stage, and still, um, still is a contentious issue, uh, my one true love. One thing that I would just ultimately bend over backwards for and, um, and have done continually and put my— put that ahead of a lot of other things. Um, so yeah, then come back and just fell straight back into it. It wasn't really pretty. And it was my— so I landed just before my 23rd birthday, I think it was. A week before my 23rd birthday and had my 23rd birthday. It was debaucherous and out of control, um, and within a week I was in my first rehab. So went to rehab, and I think in the subsequent 18 months had about 25 admissions in and out of rehab, um, and just couldn't, wouldn't submit, commit, do anything. Uh, you know, get a certain period of time and then sort of slip back. And, um, ended up in a program in Rozelle. I was doing okay there and got sort of like very close. I think it was like a week or so off completion, a 6-month program, and slipped up again and ended up in Wollongong. In rehab and met my first wife in rehab. So yeah, if you want to know why people say don't get into a relationship with people in rehab, here goes. Um, so I met this woman, she was about 6 or 7 years older than me. She come in and I was just like— so the way I describe it is you know, the Tasmanian devil or the tiger on the cartoons that just spins around like that. That's, that was sort of what I seen as I picture in my mind's eye at that time. I was like, sign me up. Like, I'm like, whatever's happening here, I want a bit of it. And this girl had come from a totally different lifestyle to me. Like, totally, you know, she's a ward of the state, you know. All of that sort of stuff. She had kids. Um, so anyway, we got together, broke every rule in the rehab, but remained there. Um, and then I think we were close to completion. And then one night, and I was like, yeah, co-ed rehabs, I don't know about that. But we're in this halfway house where there was no staff. And there's like 4 girls and 6 guys who were sleeping like in bed together the whole night, all the time. And she's like, I've got a house, we should just go back to my house, like she's saying, and then we're not breaking the rules. Like, yeah, that's a good point. We're not breaking the rules if we're living together at your place. Anyway, I think, you know, we made the decision to come clean to the group that we're living with because no one knew. It was a secret. And it was— that was addictive as well, that, that whole secrecy and, you know, getting clean and all of the senses coming back, um, is quite an intense process, um, and lustful. So yeah, that's— that was— it was just wild. Um, and I think it was within 5 minutes of being out of that house, we had scored and shot— we're shooting heroin. Yeah. And this is when the journey begins. So just opened my world up to a whole other level of crime and criminal activity. You know, before that, people had referred to me as a toaster hawker, which is someone, you know, like you go to Cash Converters, you hawk your goods, and then you go and get on. And that's sort of the extent of— or you might steal someone else's stuff and going hocket it, cash inverters. And that was the extent of the crime. You know, I ultimately, I got arrested for armed robbery. Because so we had done a job where we made a lot of money 20-odd years ago, about, you know, significant amount of money. And when you live that lifestyle, there is no tomorrow. So it was gone in 6 months. And what happened was when that money goes, so does the drugs. And when you're using copious amounts of drugs and have access to that continually for 6 months, um, yeah, it doesn't end pretty. And so yeah, it was, it was Boxing Day, being Boxing Day 1999, nothing was open, you know, back in those days there was no, like, there was nothing open. Yeah. So I'd been to visit my parents, trying to get money off them, couldn't get any money. But I pulled up at this corner store and that was like 100 meters from the house in a car that was registered in my name. This is the desperation. So I just got to that point. So it wasn't like, I'm not trying to, you know, um, it was the only shop that was open in the world as far as I was concerned. Ran in there, got the money, done the job, didn't even get enough money to buy enough drugs to not be sick. So then was subsequently— so that was Boxing Day. Then the police turned up on the 28th of December and arrested me, and I went to prison. Ultimately, I was sentenced to 4 years of prison., with a non-parole period of 2 years. So I served 2 years, and after we got sentenced, um, on the way back to the jail, I proposed to her on the back of the escort van.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 16:37
So she's with you the whole time?
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 16:39
Yes, she was a girlfriend. She was my car— yeah, yeah, she's waiting in the car to drive it away. Yeah, yeah, sorry. Um, yeah, yeah. And again, I don't want to, you know, We've both been charged for it, so it's not as if I'm telling out of school. Um, so yeah, um, yeah, just the stupidity. I'm just like, like, yeah, it's desperation. Um, so we ended up in prison and was sentenced to 4 years. Um, yeah, proposed her on the back of the escort truck. She got 2 years, I got 4 years. She said yes.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 17:16
Yay.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 17:18
We're going to have a prison wedding and everything. Uh, did that— didn't quite eventuate, thank God. Um, however, the prison experience for me was very— so that's the thing that traumatized me. I was— I think it was my second or third day there, and I watched a guy that I was in a cell with bash a guy with 15 other guys with a cricket stump that was like within a meter of me. That was like the— and then I had to go into the cell with this guy. It's like, what the fuck is— oh, um, yeah, it was, it was a surreal and eye-opening experience. Um, however, one thing that I have— like, prison is an economy of scale. Essentially, you know, there's a hierarchy. If you stick to the rules and you do the right, like, you know, there are no dramas. It's once you start to sway outside of that, that justice is swift and violent. Like, this guy got kicked around the yard for 15 minutes by 15 large men. Mind you, he had allegedly, um, raped somebody. So that's this, that's how things transpire in that world. And it was a world so foreign to me. So, so foreign because I was just this white kid from the suburbs that was just like, wait a minute, I just like, I was just over there with them and now I'm here. Like, how did that happen? And oh, so I started doing some work as a sweeper in, um, Pod 13 at MWRC. And, um, the sergeant of arms of the Comancheros come in. And I don't know if you know what the sergeant of arms means. So the sergeant of arms in a bikie gang is the most— he's the best fighter, so he can beat anybody. That's his job. So if there's any mess or any dramas, he cleans it up physically and violently. Anyway, he comes in, he goes, I'm the sweeper now, mate, blah blah. Anyway, I was like, yeah, yeah, sweet, no worries, no arguments here. And however, he was— he used to say to me, he said, mate, I don't know what you are doing in jail, but you don't belong here. And he said, you need to walk with me every day, and, um, and people will see you with me and you'll be right, they won't touch you. Sweet, yeah, I'll do that. Um, And then he would regale all of these stories to me around acts of physical violence that I won't go into because that's not my stories to tell. However, I'd just be like, you know, wow, okay, this is— and he used to make me read his love letters because he was illiterate and he'd cry and he goes, if you tell anyone, I'll bash you up. So it's just that hot. It's like, Wow, how does this— like, people wouldn't even believe this if, you know, but, um, and, you know, and this, this guy was extremely violent and someone that no one would want to mess with, and he was really nice to me, like really nice to me, would give me food, would give me smokes, would give me stuff. Um, so it's just that whole weird experience of, um as well as the punishment on top of that. So, you know, it's green and blue. So, you know, there's officers and the inmates and, um, and they're quite violent. They're like, not physical, it's more that mental, or it was for me anyway. Um, you know, there used to be these forms, they call them blueys. You're going, so if you wanted anything, you had to fill out a bluey. You know, can I have a phone call to such and such, so I need to speak— whatever you wanted, you had to fill one out. And like, you fill it out and then you'd hand it to them, and sometimes they just put them into the shredder as like— it's just like, yeah. So prison for me was the most dehumanizing process ever.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 21:44
Can I ask, were you still using drugs during prison?
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 21:48
Uh, yeah, yeah, easy access. Yeah, yeah, I smoked dope every day. I wasn't using heroin because a lot of people wouldn't let me use it in there. I did use heroin in prison, shared needles. However, that's when people get into trouble. Sorry for the interruption. This is Ian Westmoreland, the founder of Katsuki Heroes, and thank you for listening to this story from one of our amazing heroes. Our mission is for these stories to provide hope and inspiration to people experiencing life challenges and to also educate the broader community on how best to provide support. If you would like to help us to continue to produce more hero stories and cover more adversity themes we would welcome all donations. These can be made via our website, kintsugiheroes.com.au. The donate function is at the bottom of the home page. We'd also welcome any feedback. You can email me direct using ian@kintsugiheroes.com.au. Now let's get back to the story. So yeah, I I didn't— I did use heroin, however, not, um, excessively. That's essentially where people got— get into trouble, was they rack up big debts, they'd make promises around bringing in and access and all that. So shared needles a couple of times in prison, um, got hepatitis C as a result, um. But yeah, most of the people that I was connected with, so even like the bikie guy, he just was like you can't, you're not, you, like you said, if I find out you're using heroin, I'll bash you. It's like, okay. And I didn't do all of my time with him, but you know, um, yeah, it was so prison. I've done most of my time relatively easy, but the longer I was there, the easier it got. So it's not essentially, it's deterrent as such, um, you know, done done my time, done it in and out of a couple of like different jails, lots of bizarre and violent behavior. Um, and essentially I came out and I was a violent man, which I wasn't before that. So, um, was that from anger? Yeah. So, well, so what happens is in, in prison, it's survival of the fittest. So when the door opens in the morning, if you don't, um, have your suit of armor on, then someone's going to come and take what you got. So you have to, you have to at all costs, even if, even if you're going to get bashed, you have to. And the thing is about that is there's violence, but once that's done And people generally, you know, if you haven't done anything too bad, won't let it— like, let you just get flogged, um, forever and ever and ever and wait for the guards to come. They'll usually say, 'He's had enough, let him up.' Um, but then you get up, you shake hands, and it's done. It's like, that's it, it's over. And you can be friends like 5 minutes later if you really wanted to. Like, it's— yeah, it's a surreal sort Like, oh, I feel upset about that. And it's like, yeah, well, I feel upset. Okay, then let's shake hands. Like no bang-bang-bang-bang-let's— and then it's done. So she's just a real barbaric and archaic sort of practice and process, like almost Cro-Magnon essentially. And prison is, I would suggest and believe, full of scared little boys around who can sort of— who has the biggest? You know, how can I have because that's just what it is, you know. It's full of desperate, scared boys. And, um, yeah, and it's survival of the fittest. So whoever can bash the other guy doesn't mean that they're wiser, smarter, better, or anything. It's just they're physically violent and willing to do that to sustain. Um, so yeah, that's, um, that was my experience of prison. And I really— I think I only ever had one fight ultimately. Which was okay, um, but didn't, didn't have to, mainly because of the people that I was associated with, which was fine. And, and I didn't do anything stupid either. So got out very angry. And I remember when I realized, look, I had that sort of moment of clarity, and I'd— some, someone had cut me off in in the traffic. And I hopped out of my car and started kicking his door in and spitting through the window, just in his right. Like, I was— I couldn't— like, my eyes had sort of rolled in the back of my head. So that's the thing about prison. If you are disrespected, you have to save face. Otherwise, someone else will come and disrespect you straight away because they're like, there's the weak guy. And you can always smell it and see it. It's like so primal. It's like, okay, there's a weakness. Let's, um, and they will, they'll come in a pack and they'll just, yeah, whatever, take your smokes, take your dinner, take whatever. Um, so yeah, and I looked and it was like an 85-year-old man that probably didn't even realize that he cut me off. Oh, it was, oh, just the, the shame of like, you look to myself, you weak. Piece of shit. Like, I was threatening to stab it. It's like, but I— so I was just in that rage that I couldn't even see what— and this is a set of traffic lights in peak hour traffic. And I just went, what the fuck am I doing? And that was the furthest thing from me ever. Like, I was a— I've always been— I'm a lover, I'm not a fighter. And all, you know, so yeah, it was just like, fuck, and I still have that in me. Like, it can flare up when I feel disrespected, it'll flare up. And it's, you know, something that I need to be consistently aware of. If I get caught out, my anger and rage can just peak. And that's, that's, I think, one of the things that's been the byproduct of incarceration. Um, so yeah, then got married, had a kid, um, had a child that was born addicted to methadone. So it didn't stop you, like, you know, didn't— prison didn't— was in no way, shape, or form a deterrent in any way, shape, or form. So yeah, just got out, got married, had the child. So the reason why we had the child, like, well, you're still using drugs, early, heavily. The partner had had two ectopic pregnancies and an ovary removed. It's like, you're never going to get pregnant. So we'll just like, on our way. Yeah. Using copious amounts of drugs still. And all of a sudden she's pregnant. It's like, okay, yeah, this is going to be the thing that's going to make me stop. So yeah, child born addicted to methamphetamine didn't make us stop. And that's one thing I remember. One thing someone said is like, there's nothing, you know, the only thing more powerful for the love of a parent and child, heroin. You know, that's where I sort of, you know, let it go and own up to that and still are paying the consequences that today as a result of, you know, that child still struggles in certain ways, shapes, and forms. Born, um, which is half of my responsibility, I believe. Um, so at about 18 months, I had that moment of clarity and went, okay, this kid didn't ask to be born. I made that choice. If in like a week's time, 10 weeks— no, if I— it was if in 6 months' time, if I'm still doing this thing, I'm going to kill myself. I'm going to kill the kid. Like, I'm gonna— it's gonna be over. Anyway, so I called my parents, said I want to come home. They were like, yeah, if you want to come home, this is what you have to do, which I knew, like substance-free, uh, got on methadone, detoxed off methadone in their basement as a single dad. So I took the kid with me, didn't leave her. The mother kept going and doing whatever she needed to do. Um, so yeah, took my daughter with me, uh, and I think By the time she was about 3, um, I'd gotten clean, completely drug-free.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 30:35
And, um, and you did that on your own?
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 30:40
Uh, no. So I had to fly to Western Australia and get a naltrexone implant. Okay, okay. So yeah, had to— so I was that desperate that I had to get Naltrexone inserted inside of me and stitched in.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 30:57
Wow.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 30:59
Yeah, it worked. It worked though, because there was nothing else that I could have. So at that stage, and still to this day, I don't know of any rehabs that take a father and a child. I don't know. So there was nowhere for me to go. And I kept slipping back at Mum and Dad's and they're like, well, like, you gotta go, mate. You know the deal. You gotta go. And I really didn't want to, like, I wanted to get clean. I just really couldn't. And, um, sort of just fell into a real estate career in the family. My dad was a real estate agent, as I said before, fell into that. Um, had quite a good run. Um, you know, properties, share portfolio, cut the whole bit. Um, and then I think when my daughter's 5-ish, met lovely young lady and we got married. We had two— we have two amazing children, um, and just after our third one was born, or the third one was born, my third child was born, I slipped back into addiction. Started using heroin again. And, you know, because of the success in the real estate, I didn't have to, like, I wasn't jumping through people's windows. I was quite, um, and the woman that I was married to had never seen me use drugs, never. And just the person that she'd met, she didn't actually believe the stories that I would tell her. She's like, ah, like, I don't even see that person. Anyway, she come home one day and I was on the lounge, passed out, had a needle still hanging out of my arms. She said, have you been using drugs? I said, no. She says, have you been using drugs? No, no, no, no, I'm just really tired. It's been a big day. Anyway, she's like, what's, what's that in your arm? Like, the denial and the lies is so strong with, with addiction. Like, you have to catch me, you have to catch me like that. For me to admit it, and I still wasn't admitting it. Um, this poor woman has just gone, what the fuck is going on here? Um, and then I went to rehab, got my shit together again, got back to, like, you know, went back into that relationship, um, and, and had a midlife crisis. And yeah, um, I just really had disdain for money at that stage. Like, I just felt like I was in this pissing competition. It's like, if I get that, then I'll be happy. If I get that, and then I'll be happy. And then I'll get that, and then I'll be happy. And then I was never happy because it was just like, you know, my mate would get the next best car and I'd get it. It's just like, and then it's like And I just went, I just don't want to do this anymore. I really don't want to do this anymore. I fell out with my dad around— so yeah, I could have just inherited that business if I really wanted to. Um, fell out with him, the family, to Bali for 3 months to sort of go, what do I want to do? And, um, went, okay, when I get back, I want to do work that's more giving than taking. So I decided to get into the community sector. Community Services and, um, come back and really struggle. Like, I was 13 years out of jail at that stage, hadn't had any further police incidences, and, um, couldn't get a job because of my criminal record. Oh, in, in the community services sector. Wow.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 34:52
Yep.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 34:53
Yeah, yeah. Which was really frustrating. So yeah, just sort of went, oh, there's this, that, and the other. And then finally, a community housing organization gave me an opportunity. They went, we need someone to start tomorrow. We think you're going to be capable. Can you do this? I was like, yeah, started there. And that started my journey. And then I realized I needed to do some more education and training. Went on and done a diploma of community services, uh, went on to do a graduate certificate in Gestalt therapy. So like I'm a counselor, um, still a licensed real estate agent, not that I like to declare that too often. Um, and, um, started to work in space and then like realized I just, you know, I wanted to do other work, started working supporting men exiting prison. In like rehabs and drug treatment centers, um, and, um, then had a bit of a slip again. Job required me to be abstinent, and then I fell into another organization that really valued lived experience. So I was able to be employed in a job that required me to be in prison. First. So that was a prerequisite. Yeah. Which was a novelty at the time. I was like, wow, this is pretty cool. I can be me. I can be. And that was, that was a really powerful, somewhat intoxicating sort of, you know, oh shit, I shouldn't have said that. These people don't, you know, maybe have done it here as well. Because I'm quite comfortable around my story and around disclosing, but I know it can be confronting and off-putting for other people. So Um, started working in this lived experience thing, applied for it. Then I thought, okay, I'm going to change the system. Apply for a job with Corrective Services. Um, got the job thinking I was going to change it from the inside. So deluded. Um, and didn't. So I've got an email, congratulations, you've got the job. 15 minutes later, phone call. Sorry, you're an unsatisfactory person. When I put your name into the system, you come up as an unsatisfactory person. I was like, what does that even mean? He said, that's beyond my pay grade. Took him to the Human Rights Commission. 3 years I fought them at the Human Rights Commission and had a decision made in my favor. And then ultimately they said, oh, what job do you want? I said, look, I really feel like I've dodged a bullet. I don't want to work for you. Thank you very much. And was— so I'd written an employment program and I was delivering it as a sort of external contractor in Corrections, which was— that was a weird sort of thing because the people in the email chain for the human rights and for the job at Corrections, they were the same people, right? This is like, yeah, um, and then started to get into I started to get a bit of an advocate voice around learning more about the, you know, all the— a lot of the people. So I sit in really rare air. I've only been to prison once. That's sort of very uncommon. Um, so, and I put that down to my privilege, essentially. But what I discovered was a lot of the people that I'd known, at least in and out, you know, it's not that fucking good. Why do you keep going back? But just started to understand the barriers that they face and the discrimination that they're facing that I was facing because I hadn't faced that for the first 12 years because I just got a family job. Whereas now I was facing the discrimination of the employment and all of those sorts of things, and I was skilled and capable of negotiating. They, like a lot of these people, hadn't completed year 10.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 38:52
Can I ask, Dean, At this point, so you're talking now, at this point you've got this solid employment, you've fought the HR, the Human Rights Commission, you know, you're doing some amazing programs in corrective services. Did you consider yourself clean at that point? Did you feel clean?
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 39:10
As in, what do you mean by clean?
Aveline Clark (Host) · 39:12
From the addiction, from the drug addiction.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 39:15
Um, oh no, no, it's always there. Yeah, like if you put heroin in me, like, I don't know, I couldn't guarantee what would happen, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still occasionally have a drink, like I drink alcohol, which I never could before. However, I don't— and it's not so much, it's more around the damage that's happened as a result of the incarceration more than anything, if you know what I mean. That's what brings me the shame. Because I've done a shit thing to somebody. I've done a few terrible things. So they're not my proudest moments. But yeah, it's so, you know, what the most powerful thing that one guy said to me that was really a catalyst was, and this guy was like an old school bank robber that I respected that had got his shit together. He said, mate, if you want to know about courage, so the most courageous thing I could ever do is face my greatest fear. And he said, you know what my greatest fear is? And I said, what? He goes, telling another man how I feel. Yeah, I was just like, whoa, fuck, don't ask me to do that. He said, I could punch on with anybody in the middle of the yard. You could bash me, beat me, stab me, rob me, whatever, not even blink an eyelid. He said, mate, to tell you how I feel and what's going on for me. I don't know why, but he said it makes— he said, I can feel it now. I feel like I'm sweating as well. Like, I can feel that it just gets stuck in here because boys don't cry, all that sort of bullshit that you, you know, what I heard when I was growing up, which is terrible, terrible language.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 40:59
Do you feel like the journey has been— like you said, there's the incarceration, but there's also the imprint, the societal imprint on you as a young boy. Do you feel like the journey post-incarceration, like getting out of jail, has all been kind of healing and pulling back layers and trying to come back to who you are?
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 41:20
Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, I think— I often think, like I used to say, I wouldn't change anything, as in, over my life. And now I reflect on it, like, I really— the things that I would change, there's a few things that I really wouldn't want the traumatic experience to happen to the people that I was robbing. So there was other things that I got away with that I'm not going to talk about because I'm not going to incriminate myself. But I got away with things, you know what I mean, that people were harmed in. So that's something that I would I wouldn't want to happen again. However, then I probably wouldn't go to jail. And then, you know, what that looks like, who knows. Um, there's a few things that I'd do differently around. So I'm now divorced again for a second time. Um, and, and was single through COVID. It was just so excruciatingly painful emotionally for me. That was like, yeah, the emotions. And so, yeah, once when you stop taking drugs and you feel everything, um, understanding how not to do that, um, yeah, that was— that's been a real process for me to get out of, and I feel like I'm still coming out of it and coming to terms. But I feel like I just woke up one day and my, my family just wasn't there. So that's quite— still gets me. Miss my kids terribly. I miss my ex-wife terribly as well. Um, yeah, but that's, you know, she, she was so— she was the one person that believed in me when a lot of others had given up. And that's a powerful thing. It saved my life. It really did.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 43:16
So now you're living a life to serve others, to help others navigate through some of those sandstorms that you went through and do things better and differently. You're giving back. Yeah, that's a beautiful thing.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 43:32
Yeah, for me, what it's about now is modeling the behavior that is achievable and having appropriate reactions to life as it happens, not getting sort of like, oh yeah, I feel sad, like I just connected with sadness and like I should feel sad. That's, it's a valid emotion, you know, shame's about anger's a valid emotion. It's those toxic ends that, that are damaging and, and, and cause harm to others as well as myself. So that's where I try to sit now. And, you know, I've just, just been awarded a fellowship to go and study abroad, posing the question, can we build safer communities by closing a prison? And there's evidence to suggest so. So I'm going to Rikers Prison. So the most incarcerated nation, America, and then the least incarcerated nation. So I want to create a spectrum and then pull the things out that we can. And ultimately, my goal is to close Long Bay Prison.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 44:42
Wow.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 44:43
Yeah, that's—
Aveline Clark (Host) · 44:45
and I have no doubt that you're going to do that too.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 44:49
Thank you.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 44:49
Right. Yeah, you got a lot of drive and a lot of toughness in you.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 44:53
Like, thank you. It's interesting, some people, when you step out, or when I step outside of the echo chamber, um, I've said it to someone like at a— I don't know where I was, but it wasn't somewhere I'd usually go. I was at a dinner party or something on a, like, a date with somebody, and it was just like, someone's like, why the fuck would you want to do that? It's the stupidest idea I've heard. It's just like, wow, okay, yeah, let's talk about that. But you know what I mean, just those— it's really, for me, that was a real moment of like, echo, like, I don't need to convince you, you know what I mean? Nah, that's the person that I need to convince. But that's the work, not the, like, preach to the choir. No, you don't need to preach to the choir. The hard sell is the guys like, that's the stupidest idea in the world, mate. Which, hey, yeah, if that's what you believe it is then. So it's just around, and that, I think for me, that's been the most valuable experience of all of the stuff.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 45:55
Yeah.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 45:55
Is that I'm not always right. You're not always right. But I'm willing to sit down and communicate about it. I have the ability to have a normal and appropriate conversation without escalating my, I'm fucking right and you need to do it my way. Because essentially that's the solution as I see it. So one at the moment is we just have this one-size-fails-all approach, which is prison.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 46:26
Mm, yep.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 46:27
And for some people it works. Some people, we need a catalyst for change. It's about finding those appropriate catalysts for change for everybody.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 46:34
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 46:36
Trigger for— yeah, and what works for some doesn't work for others, but we don't have access to that at the moment.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 46:42
Last question, I know that the, the clock is ticking. If, if there's someone listening to this, um, Dean, who's been through any, any of the experiences that you've shared with us, what piece of advice would you give them?
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 46:57
So the, the great— if it's a man, that story about telling another man how you feel, face those fears, be courageous, be courageous about who you are, tell another man how you feel, look to other men that can do that and watch and learn from them. Because we haven't got— I don't feel like men have that ability and capability And I don't feel like it's been modeled to us as of yet. We need that to be. It's probably a 5, 10-year prospect of having that modeled and implemented. The other thing is that, you know, there's very rare, um, few guarantees in life, but one thing I will guarantee is it'll be different. How you are feeling right now will not be how you feel in a week.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 47:41
Yeah.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 47:42
It'll be different. And if you're on top of the world now, you'll be shit next week. No, you won't, but you know what I mean? And if you're shit now, you'll be on top of the world next week. I guarantee, that's the guarantee that I'll give you because that's how it's been for me. And you just gotta, I had to hang in there long enough to allow it to be different. Yeah.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 48:02
Beautiful advice. You know, we, we live in cycles. We don't live in straight lines, right? Yes. Life, life is a journey full of cycles. Dean, I just want to acknowledge your courage, your bravery, your heart, and your strength, um, and everything that you've shared. You've really moved me, and I'm really grateful for your authenticity, um, your vulnerability. So thank you very much for sharing with me and the listeners your story.
Dean Lloyd (Guest) · 48:29
Thanks for letting me babble on for an hour. I appreciate— no, I appreciate— I do appreciate it. Thanks for your time, Evelyn.
Aveline Clark (Host) · 48:36
We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Suki Heroes. Please like and share the show to your friends so we can get this out to even more people. If you have a story you'd like to share with us, please reach out using the contact details below. Join us next week for our next hero story. Until then, keep being you, and remember that we are all heroes in our own unique way.
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