Catherine Grady
Catherine Grady left acting to study animals, and discovered that patience and genuine curiosity reveal what science has missed: the emotional lives of predators.
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Catherine Grady grew up in Seattle surrounded by animals and forests, the youngest of five children whose parents worked in salmon recovery. She spent her first two years at university pursuing acting and singing before realizing that what made her feel truly alive was working with animals. She switched to conservation biology, and that shift changed everything.
What drew Catherine to wildlife research was not just a love of animals, but a conviction that science had gotten something fundamental wrong about them. In university biology courses, she encountered assumptions nobody seemed to question: that researchers should never intervene when animals are in danger, that humans and nature are separate. She read widely and listened to researchers who had witnessed animals suffering under these protocols. She began to see that the way we name things matters. Calling where an animal lives a "habitat" versus a "home" shapes how we understand what that animal needs. These small shifts in language and thinking felt like permissions to ask harder questions.
Catherine has worked across continents studying wolves in Yellowstone, marine and forest ecosystems in Belize, and most recently spent nearly five months in Mongolia researching snow leopards. In the Altai Mountains, her team captured camera trap photographs of two young snow leopards nuzzling each other, playing on rocks. When she saw those images, she thought of her own brother. The moment stopped her cold: here was proof, undeniable and gentle, that predators we call "ghost cats" and assume to be solitary are capable of the kind of love and connection we see in ourselves.
What Catherine has learned in the field extends far beyond animals. Watching a stressed wolf or an aggressive bear helps her understand human behavior and suffering with deeper compassion. She believes that when you slow down in an animal's home and approach without asking anything of it, the animal will meet you with curiosity. Everything, she says, just wants to be loved.
“Everything just wants to be loved. Like there's a place for everything and, um, if you're able to slow down and just like see them for who they really are, then they will welcome you.”
“When you call something a habitat, it's terrifying. But if you call it home, then you're able to understand what it needs and where it's coming from.”
“When you pursue what you genuinely love, like what you, not what you think is like really cool and whatever, but like what makes your soul nourished, then it naturally makes the world a better place.”
The hero, today
Children see animals as equals, and Catherine held onto that understanding into adulthood by choosing to see and research them as individuals with their own intelligence and feeling, not as objects to study. When you slow down in an animal's home and approach without asking anything of it, the animal will meet you with curiosity and trust, whether it's a shy cow or a wild predator. Scientists and the public often don't question foundational assumptions about animals, like the rule not to intervene when an animal is in danger, and changing even one word, from habitat to home, can reframe how we understand what an animal needs. Studying animals in the field teaches you to recognize why humans act the way they do when they're stressed or cornered, which deepens your compassion for both people and wildlife. The way to actually study the species you care about is to pursue research questions that genuinely align with your values, not because a topic sounds cool or prestigious.
Yes. Catherine Grady is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Children see animals as equals, and Catherine held onto that understanding into adulthood by choosing to see and research them as individuals with their own intelligence and feeling, not as objects to study.
When you slow down in an animal's home and approach without asking anything of it, the animal will meet you with curiosity and trust, whether it's a shy cow or a wild predator.
Scientists and the public often don't question foundational assumptions about animals, like the rule not to intervene when an animal is in danger, and changing even one word, from habitat to home, can reframe how we understand what an animal needs.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 00:02
Welcome to another episode of Animals and Us, where we explore and honor the awesomeness of animals and our relationships with them. Hello, Katherine, and welcome to Animals and Us.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 00:50
Thank you, thank you for having me.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 00:54
Katherine, I know you've only been in Australia for a few days. What were your first impressions when you arrived in Australia?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 01:02
Oh wow, um, I was just instantly blown away. I, um, I think one of my favorite things are the like eucalyptus and gum tree forests. I think the terrain here is just so beautiful, and then it's, um, also so diverse. And I think that coupled with The people is just, it's, I feel very welcome here and I've always wanted to come here and, um, I definitely made the right decision. Yeah. I love it already.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 01:36
Great. Good. Yeah. Well, well, welcome to Australia. I'm sure your work and the impact you're going to have on our country is going to be most, most valuable and welcome. Katherine, can we start with your childhood, where you grew up and what your childhood looked looked like.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 01:53
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Studying animals in the field teaches you to recognize why humans act the way they do when they're stressed or cornered, which deepens your compassion for both people and wildlife.
This conversation includes arriving in australia, growing up outside in seattle, the shift from acting to animals, the first research program in belize, what biology textbooks don't question and horses and the movie with the dragon.
Sure. So I, um, I'm from Seattle, Washington in the United States, um, and I'm the youngest of 5. And I basically grew up like always being outside. I feel like that's a common trope for a lot of, uh, environmentally oriented people. But, um, yeah, I grew up always playing outside and My parents were, um, both also environmentally oriented. My, um, they both worked for the government for salmon recovery. Um, and so they were very encouraging of me exploring the natural world. And so I had basically every pet you could think of, um, including like livestock. And I always had little collections of different, um, plants and bugs in my room. And I feel like that really fostered just like, um, a curiosity for the world. And I think, um, as a child, I think this can be kind of taken away as you get older, but, um, you really— children really look at animals, I believe, as like equals. And, um, they see each other for who they really are. Um, and I feel like my parents really encouraged that in me, and I am fortunate that I still hold that value. Um, and so I've brought that into what, um, I now do at, for my career. But I think, um, growing up surrounded by nature and animals, I really felt, um, like a connection and an equality between us, um, that I think starting to be lost in a lot of the world. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 03:50
Yeah.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 03:51
Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 03:51
Unfortunately, the disconnection. Petra, was there a time earlier in your life when you realized that, that your future career and, and work would be centered around animal welfare and animal conservation?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 04:06
Yeah, I actually, um, so growing up, uh, having basically spent all my time outside and caring for animals, um, that was kind of second nature to me. So I actually spent my first 2 years of university pursuing a career in, uh, acting and singing. Um, and I realized, um, you know, I really like doing this, but I don't feel fulfilled doing this for a career. And so I took kind of a 180-degree shift and just was like, well, I feel most alive and at home when I'm really caring for animals. And I think, um, when I really started to reconsider what direction I wanted to take my life, um, I was just thinking about, yeah, what really makes me like light up inside. And I think, um, it's always been caring for animals, but particularly I feel, um, a lot of similarities with wildlife, especially carnivores, because they are often portrayed, um, inaccurately. As like, for example, wolves are often portrayed as like villains and things. And I think I really, um, felt myself like that I also was very misunderstood. Um, and so I was just like, well, I really feel very passionate and just fulfilled when I'm caring for animals. And I also What I think my unique take on it is like, I feel like I see them for who they really are. And, um, I think that I was starting with that kind of mindset at going into acting and wanting to portray characters that seemed misunderstood and were more complex than they let on. And then when I realized I wanted to go into conservation, I took that with me. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 06:23
Interesting. So you really followed, followed your heart by going into the world of animals and conservation. And you certainly have done a lot of work. I mean, you're so young and yet you have done so much already.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 06:37
Thanks.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 06:38
Later on in the conversation, we'll get to Mongolia and your experiences in Mongolia. Can you take us back to some of your earlier international projects? And walk us through some of the, the research that you've done.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 06:53
Sure. So when I decided to transfer, um, universities, I, um, realized I wanted to— well, I wanted to graduate with still within 4 years. And so that meant I had to make up a lot of coursework, um, because, you know, acting and biology or very starkly different majors. And so I spent the summer doing a study abroad research program in Belize, and that was my first international research pursuit. And I spent 6 months going all across the country. We had a home base at the Monkey Bay Wildlife Sanctuary, And we went all over from the, like, coastal region and did some marine research there to some riparian forests studying birds. And, um, it was a really great experience because I really, um, even though it was such a short amount of time, but so much, I gained so many new skills in that, um, concentrated period. Um, and I felt like I was also really able to hone my focus on what I want to study and what I don't. Um, and so that was, that was very formative. And it also, um, was really nice because, um, I have two of my like dominant and like kind of equally uh, presiding values are wildlife and environmental conservation and Indigenous justice. Um, and so it was really nice to be able to do a program that values those things as well. And so we are partnering with a lot of Indigenous and local communities and doing research in a way that empowers them. Um, and so I feel like this set a framework for my future, um, research endeavors and also whenever I become the PI, how I want to structure my programs.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 09:13
And what is PI?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 09:16
Oh, sorry, PI is principal investigator. It's like the leading researcher on a project, right? Yeah, right.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 09:25
And during your early research, was there anything that that you discovered that particularly surprised you?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 09:32
I think it's really interesting taking your first 2 years of, um, like biology at, um, like, uh, university. Because even though I would say the university I went to is very innovative and progressive, there still are like basic foundational, um, things that you learn in biology that are kind of just like, no one questions it. It doesn't even seem like something you would question. Um, but they actually, um, are something you should question. That wasn't my best sentence, but what I'm trying to say is, um, there are these like assumptions and things we have about animals and wildlife and dynamics. And I think the way we still look at science, it's changing, which is really exciting, and it's becoming more open-minded, and there are a lot of new methods. But there are still, I would say, is this kind of fundamental baseline that, um, especially when researching animal behavior, uh, that humans and nature are separate entities. Um,, and especially like researching behavior, you're not supposed to intervene. Um, what, and that kind of thing. And I think the two, some of the things that stood out to me, um, were hearing stories from people that I am inspired by and they have researched animal behavior. And there were scenarios where animals were like in danger or um, like vulnerable in some way. And it wasn't necessarily like, uh, an, um, a natural occurrence. Like, for example, it was like a monkey being stuck in a snare in the rainforest. Um, but the protocol was you're researching animal behavior, you're just supposed to observe and not intervene. And so they weren't allowed to do anything about it. Um, and I think that is very interesting to me because the point of doing this research is to learn how we can be better connected and conserve the natural world. Um, and so I think there are still, there's still kind of a baseline of like, you're not supposed to intervene. Um, and I think I, I really like, um, what Jane Jane Goodall's methods were of like kind of challenging that, um, and seeing us as equals and reframing that mindset. And then I also read this really interesting book, um, by Lucy Cooke called Bitch: On the Female of the Species. And it basically counters like everything that you learn in like your first 2 years of biology. About just like the most like fundamental things about how animals operate and like what is gender and what is sex and like what is evolution. And there's, and like Charles Darwin and all these like basic things that everyone just considers fact. And I think it's, it's just a very mind-blowing book. Um, to look at how much we kind of ignore and don't discuss. And I think in doing that, that really hinders our progress and protecting the natural world. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 13:19
So Katherine, what was your main takeaway from that book?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 13:25
Yeah, I think, um, it really inspired me to question everything. And, um, there are so many things that I think people just assume are how they are and how they should be. But, um, there's a lot more that meets the eye. And yeah, I would say that's my main takeaway.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 13:49
Katherine, do you remember the first time you realized that animals experienced the world in ways far more complex than most people understand?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 13:59
I would say this isn't the first time that I realized this. Um, it was definitely, um, I feel like I already had this understanding in my head growing up, feeling a bit ostracized at school and, um, really having animals and especially horses to lean on as like my friends and supporters. Um, and vice versa. But I think something that I felt like really captured what I was feeling and like articulated what I was feeling, um, to a child that didn't really know how to express this was watching— this is kind of funny, but watching the movie How to Train Your Dragon, the first one. I really liked that movie because it's this boy who grows up in a small town and he's bullied and everyone around him hates dragons and they wanna kill them. And they just automatically assume these are like thoughtless creatures that all they wanna do is destroy. And then the main character, um, rescues this dragon and they become friends because he's like patient with this dragon. And I feel like Nobody gave him the opportunity to explain himself and to like be seen. And he really saw that the dragon also was like vulnerable and very, um, misunderstood. And so he gave the dragon that opportunity, um, to really be seen as well. And in doing that, he realizes Oh wow, these are like beings that are more intelligent than me. And one of my favorite quotes from that movie is he is sitting with his like new best friend, this dragon named Toothless, um, and surrounded by all these other little ones. And he says something like, everything we know about you guys is wrong. And I just felt like, oh my, like to a little kid, I was like, oh my God, somebody else gets it. It. Like, I felt like growing up with horses, you know, they're these creatures that are so deeply feeling and smart and kind, and yet I think the standard is to like keep them in cages and— or stalls— and like exercise them once a day, and it's very like claustrophobic. Um, And I think there— I— that really woke me up to like all the ways that the world is like treating, um, animals and plants and everything that isn't human as just like less than without even like a reason. It's just like that's the standard. And, um, I feel like that was like just really eye-opening for me.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 17:08
And just as the boy in, with the dragon gained a deep understanding of that one individual dragon, I think it's important to understand that individual animals, what happens to them individually matters to them individually. They're all absolutely, they are all individuals just as we are.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 17:30
Exactly, exactly.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 17:32
Katherine, let's now go to Mongolia. So you, you lived in Mongolia and researched in Mongolia in this year, 2025. Can you tell us all about them, starting with what, what was Mongolia like for you?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 17:48
Sure. So yeah, I just wrapped up spending almost 5 months there. And I was really fortunate because I was able to participate in a diverse array of research projects. The first were in sort of central Mongolia in Khustai National Park, which was a very, it's a very like flat, like there aren't very many trees, open landscape. And there's a reason they call Mongolia like the land of the blue sky because it is very vast like that. Then I went into the mountains in late, uh, later in the summer to do some archaeological research on the ice patches up in the Altai Mountains. So that was a starkly different landscape, but just as beautiful, if not more so. Um, and then the last, uh, stint of it was uh, setting traps so we could put satellite collars on snow leopards, um, in, uh, western Mongolia. And so that was more in the fall, so it started to snow. But, um, it, it was— it's a beautiful country. I'm just like, it takes kind of a lot to, to decompress after that amount of time because there was just so much to absorb, and the people are incredibly kind. And even though, um, you, you know, there is a huge language barrier if you don't know Mongolian, because it's not like some other languages where there are words that sound similar, um, the people are just like always willing to help. Um, and one of the things that I love is how much hospitality is valued in this country. And you can go up to anyone's ger, which is like the felt yurts, um, in the middle of nowhere, and they'll feed you and house you at just like no cost. You never have to like, you don't, you don't know, have to know who they are. Um, they can be total strangers, but it's just this automatic like camaraderie., that I think is missing in a lot of places. And so I automatically felt, um, very, both very welcome but also very like inspired. And, um, I, I think that coupled with this nation has like thousands of years of history of nomadic herding and pastoralism, and so they're very tied to the land, um, pretty much everywhere. And like the wild horses and snow leopards and the golden eagles are these major cultural symbols. And I think it's really inspiring because, um, it's a great example of how preserving the natural world also preserves cultural heritage. Um, and so And again, that, um, really reinforces both my values of environmental and indigenous justice. And so, yeah, it was, it's a really beautiful place to be. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 21:20
Katherine, what are some interesting things you learned about the snow leopards while you're in Mongolia?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 21:28
Yeah, I think one of the, um, really exciting things, even though we weren't able to collar any this year because, you know, they're called the ghost cat for a reason. They're very elusive, but that's as to be expected. Um, one of the things that I'm very excited about is that, um, even though they are these elusive creatures, they are very understudied, and we kind of assume that they are, um, mostly, uh, very isolated and not very social. But I think one of some— something that my team and I are excited to explore are like how perhaps these animals are more social and less isolated than we assume. Um, and so that was definitely an exciting thing to learn. Um, and yeah, I think, I think that was the dominant thing. Another thing I'm, uh, really excited to follow up on, follow up that research question with is like kind of studying their secret lives. Um, and I think I'm, I'm really passionate about doing that with a predator. I, um, I think there's some studies use camera collars, which are like satellite collars that have a little camera. And those are really cool to see because you can see how animals are interacting and what they're doing. Um, in at times when you usually wouldn't be able to see them, like a camera trap can't always capture that information or like just GPS data. And so that's really exciting for me wanting to counter these narratives, especially with predators, but really with a lot of different taxa of misinformation and like things like that about their personalities. And so seeing when predators are being very affectionate towards each other or like playful or like even more intelligent than we'd expect, um, I think is very exciting. And doing that with a camera collar, I think is a really strong way to be able to counter those narratives and also learn a lot more about their lives. And what I love about, um, this new technology is that it also really, um, gets the public involved. I think hard data, like from a GPS and everything like that, is critical, and we always need to be gathering that kind of data, um, and I want to, um, but what I've really learned through science communication is like people need a story, and seeing, um, how these animals are interacting through these like hidden, never-before-seen clips, um, can really help. Like, if people have proof that, oh, wolves aren't actually like man-eating machines, they basically like never really even killed people, but like they're actually extremely intelligent and thoughtful and affectionate. And then if you can say that and then show people like actual evidence of them doing this in with their pack, then people, like, they need to see it to believe it. And then when people see that, they're like, that changes their whole perspective. And so I'm really excited to do that with, um, uh, a very understudied predator.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 25:17
Any examples of, or an example of, of an interaction or a behavior of a snow leopard that amazed you?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 25:28
Yeah. Um, so we weren't able to collar this year, but we still did put up camera traps. And one of my favorite things about this was we captured, um, two siblings that were likely dispersing from their mother cuz they were old enough and so they're now going to find their own territory. And on the camera trap pictures, they are these like snapshots of them like playing. And there's this hilarious photo of like, there's a big rock here and there's like a snow leopard in midair, and then the other one, and they're just like totally like siblings playing. And then the next one is a snapshot of like one of them standing and then the other one like nuzzling it just very sweetly. And that's the one that really stood out to me. Um, I think it, it just was like, oh, I, I just kind of was at a loss for words when I first saw it. It was just like this animal just clearly just loves its sibling and is just so safe and invested in the relationship. And I was like, my brother and I are like very, very close. And I was like, oh my God, that's, that's my brother and me. We're playing and then we're like, I love you so much. And, uh, yeah, I think, I think more people need to see that kind of thing. So that was really exciting.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 27:07
Yes. Yeah. Emotional intelligence of animals and, and the relationships of animals. A snowshoe Are snow leopards endangered?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 27:17
Mm-hmm. Yeah, they're technically, I think they're being reassessed right now. Um, Mongolia has a pretty strong population compared to other nations, but, um, overall they're definitely vulnerable. Yeah, I think they're being reassessed, so I can't fully say yet, but I would assume yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 27:37
All right. Katherine, you've worked across different continents and researching different species, are there any universal truths that you've discovered about animals' minds?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 27:54
I think there are two things. The first thing is, um, that this kind of ties back into what I talked about, like the formative things I learned in my first few years studying biology and like the things that kind of challenge conventional norms of, um, which is, I think scientists, the common phrase for where an animal lives is habitat. And I think I've heard people start to use the term home. Um, which I think you even just that slight shift in language really helps you Reframe how you're investigating this animal. Um, and coming to another country and saying that, then I feel like you can really appreciate, oh my God, like this animal has lived here for so long and like has, like its ancestors have been here and then they're like these rainforests next door. Being destroyed and, you know, that's terrifying for anything if you call it habitat. But if you, if you call it home, I think saying things like that, you're really able to, like, it kind of makes me think of the hospitality culture in Mongolia. Like when you're able to slow down and appreciate, I'm in this animal's home, it has you know, welcomed me here. I'm like, this is a privilege. Then you're really able to kind of understand, um, what it needs and where it's coming from. So I think the first universal truth is that, um, I, I don't know if this is like a universal truth, but I think animals, just like, um, like, I, I don't quite know how to say this exactly, but it's just, you know, when you're doing international research, you're going into an animal's like home and it's a very vulnerable state for that creature to be in. And so I think just really reframing your mindset there is kind of I, more of a universal truth for me and something I recommend for other colleagues. But then something for, um, that I've noticed with animals is that animals are actually very curious and even if they're like prey and things like that. Um, and I definitely, I definitely noticed this as a child and, um, I think it kind of couples with the idea of like reframing your vocabulary, but, um, I think like even, even if it's like a prey species or something, if you're able to slow down, you can really observe their personalities a lot more. And so like if you think of like Like all animals are very curious and I think the universal truth here is that like they, everything just wants to be loved. Like there's a place for everything and, um, if you're able to slow down and just like see them for who they really are, then they will welcome you. Um, and I think, you know, that's why there are these photos of like Jane Goodall, like being really close with chimpanzees and things, because she didn't just jump in and like start writing down stuff. She really slowed down. And like, um, like working on a farm and there's like a really shy cow or whatever, I, um, I would sit, for example, um, this actually happened in Mongolia. I would basically like spend some time of my day just like sitting next to this little cow, um, at this one place we were staying. And like, at first it was very shy, but like, I wasn't asking anything from it. I just knew like, this thing is just worthy because it exists. And like, I don't, I'm not asking anything of it. I just wanna like learn more about you. Um, and I think when you're able to like do that, you can then eventually, like it came up to me and then it like put its head in my lap and like I was able to give it like scratches on its neck and like, and, um, I think the same thing goes for the wild world. Like, um, you know, they're. I think I've noticed that with all the things I've studied, whether like just like urban animals that are more used to humans or things that are a lot farther, um, into the dense backcountry, everything just wants to be loved, but they're all a little skeptical because of how much, um, we've instilled these like narratives founded in misinformation about them. But, um, when you go into a place and you just are patient and you just realize like, I'm in this animal's home and it just, it wants to be understood, then I feel like that's where you really have breakthroughs. Um, and so I think no matter What animal I'm studying, whether it's like a grizzly bear eating a carcass in Yellowstone or like, like a little freshwater fish in like the river in Belize, like everything just like, I don't think anything actually wants to harm you unless provoked. And I very much feel like that would growing up as well. Um, and so I think that— I think that is really just like the universal truth of like these animals are naturally very loving, no matter predator or prey. And I think that's what we need to change, especially in like the more public scene. I think a lot of scientists really already know this, but, um, yeah, that was a very long answer. So thanks for sticking with me there. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 35:00
I was just thinking about what you said. Do you think there are some exceptions to what you said about all animals just wanting to be loved? I mean, I, I can understand that with mammals and birds, but what about reptiles? I'm thinking of crocodiles. Yeah, I guess that's a whole new topic, isn't it? I must interview a crocodile expert and to, um, ask about the emotional, uh, lives of crocodiles, if there is— if, if, you know, if there is such a thing, they do have emotional lives.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 35:33
Yeah, yeah. I think, um, you know, I naturally feel very drawn to studying animals, but I think one of the— or sorry, not an— well, yes, animals, but mammals. Um, but I think where we can really challenge norms and things like that is with like reptiles and fish. And like, there's a reason people say like reptilian brain. It's not like a compliment, you know. Um, but I think, I think coming into this, um, that researching animals like those with this, uh, continuous questioning, like, how do we know that they're not smart? Like, how do we even measure intelligence? Like, just because they can't, like, solve, like, some calculus problem doesn't mean they're, like, automatically stupid. But I am very curious if there's more than meets the eye there. And I think this is very interesting with fish, especially because, um, I grew up, you know, working on farms and in my free time, like, my cousins and I would go fishing and I always hated it because I, I just, it just felt wrong. And like, there's a difference from fishing for sustenance versus like catch and release. I totally respect fishing for sustenance, like, nothing wrong with that, obviously. But when we were just catching something and releasing it, I just, it didn't sit right with me. And my professor, um, sometime last year was talking to me and she was saying there is research about how fish have PTSD. And I think that is really interesting to me because automatically it's like, I think some of the animals like lowest, um, on like the scale are like fish and like reptiles and like some like bold birds and like poultry and things like that. But like the fact that that kind of research has been done is like very exciting to me. And I feel like I already kind of knew that cuz I feel like I've held onto this belief that I had as a child where I saw animals as equals and that I think a lot of children have and you kind of lose that as you get older. And she was also explaining how fish get lonely. Um, and so having like a one goldfish in a bowl is like very bad for it. And you know, That makes sense. Like some people might take like a fully like by the book kind of approach of like, well, yes, this is probably because it evolved in, you know, swimming in schools because that's safe. And like its instincts tell it not to, you know, be alone cuz you'll get eaten. And yeah, that's like true. And that's, you know, we need that kind of basis to be able to make these conclusions about animal sentience, but I'm also curious if it's just like, what if that's also like, what if it's depressed not only because of like evolution, um, telling it to, it's safer to be around people or fish, but because it's an individual with sentience and it's lonely. Like how I would be if I was kept in a bowl. Um, and so I think things like that are really interesting and especially with like, uh, fish and, um, especially with like elasmobranchs, like shark, like a lot of shark species. Um, we automatically assume they have this like reptilian brain, but I'm very curious about challenging that.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 39:39
Yes. Yes. Fascinating. Katherine, how has spending long periods of time in the field with animals changed you as a person?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 39:50
Yeah, I think this kind of research really strengthens your compassion with people as well. Um, especially I think, um, Yeah, I think when I'm able to observe, when I spend hours researching a wolf's behavior and its home is, uh, its home is like cut up by roads and highways and every summer it's filled with crowds of people staring at it. Um, and I can under— I can see why this animal gets stressed and aggressive and it's just doing what it needs to, to survive. And I think that gives you a lot of compassion for kind of people who are the same way. That is really a parallel I have observed that I— there's a common saying, I feel like that a lot of people, um, can relate to, like, I like animals more than people, but I think studying animals and seeing kind of their more negative traits and when they're kind of exhibiting behaviors that aren't as fun to be around, like when a grizzly bear is like, um, lunging at a wolf, or like when you hear stories of like animals, um, you know, just being uniquely bold and aggressive. I think having spent so much time just sitting and watching these animals' lives and like all their intricacies, you really get to understand why it's acting this way. And I think a lot of people need that as well. Having that chance to just let each other be seen and be patient with each other, um, really strengthens human relationships and also having that with the natural world really strengthens your connection to the natural world and then, um, motivation to, uh, protect it. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 42:17
Interesting. So your empathy and understanding towards animals and how that has, that has actually led to a deeper understanding of humans as well.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 42:28
Interesting. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it like mirrors the, the, not a lot of the natural world parallels the like more human relationships. Yeah. Yes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 42:43
Yes. Katherine, you've spent a lot of time out in the field doing research, and I imagine that it's not always glamorous as it sometimes appears in photographs or video excerpts. What are some of your toughest, toughest moments out on the field?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 43:04
Yeah, I was talking to this with someone else, but it, you definitely have to be slightly crazy to pursue this career cuz it, you have to be pretty resilient with a lot of things. Um, you know, there's like a lot of foods I didn't expect I would eat. Um, well, a very common food that, um, in, in like Mongolia is this meal that you have for like honored guests of— I forgot what it's called, but it's basically like a boiled sheep with like potatoes and cabbage. And like, I love— I really value it and love it because, you know, it's a lot to— it takes a lot of effort to make and money and whatnot, but also because they use pretty much every part of the animal. But, um, which is very sustainable. But coming from America, where first of all we don't really eat mutton that much, um, and then we don't— if we do, it's like select parts of the animal. I was, I was able to eat like the cheek skin on a sheep and like an eyeball and like vertebrae. And, um, you know, that you definitely have to be very open-minded. Um, and I'm sure, you know, other people growing up eating that, coming to America and having the foods that I am used to eating, probably feel the exact same way. And like, obviously no, like nothing negative to say there. It's just like different diets and that can also, you know, it's a different microbiome and so your stomach definitely feels it at the first few weeks. Um, and so this kind of, this kind of work is like you're exposed to a lot of change often. Um, like no running water or toilets. Um, can be very cold or very hot. Don't really have access. To medical things, um, and transportation isn't always easy, and new foods. And so you, I, you can easily get like an upset stomach, whatever. Um, so it really just takes like a much more flexible and resilient, uh, mindset.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 45:39
Um, and courageous too. I think that you must take courage to eat some of those foods. For example, Katherine, what was it like eating a sheep's eyeball?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 45:53
Um, it was definitely, uh, was squishy. I don't know. Um, it was— I think it was different. Um, and you know, I think But I'm really grateful for the experience and I would do it again. Like it, it wasn't my favorite food by any means. I, there are a lot of Mongolian foods I love. It's a huge privilege to be able to have that opportunity and say, oh, like this wonderful Mongolian family spent the time to harvest a sheep and make this meal for me and And having that meal is like how you really get to know the people in the country. Like you can't just like jump in and start researching. You need to know the people there as well. And, um, that's just kind of basically, so, you know, it wasn't my favorite thing that I ate, but, um, I don't regret eating it, you know?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 47:03
So Katherine, as we said at the start, you've recently arrived in Australia. Can you tell us about your research plans in Australia?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 47:13
Yeah. Uh, currently I'm kind of looking. I, um, I'm right now based at this farm, as you can see in the background. I, as I mentioned, I grew up working on farms, so I feel very at home here. Um, and I was just like, I've always wanted to go to Australia and live here, and I just need to like get myself there and then I'll figure it out. Um, so that's where I'm based right now, but I— there's so many different questions I have, um, for research topics. So I think there are a lot of different avenues I could take, but I'm very curious about, um, sticking with, uh, carnivores, especially canids, and researching dingoes. I think that's a very unique species and, um, there are a lot of different questions I have regarding them. So I would love to do something with them. Um, but as of right now, I'm still kind of looking and take, uh, figuring out my next steps, but I'm sure it'll work out relatively soon.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 48:22
Yeah. And feeling your way. Well, yeah, good luck with finding a research project in, uh, around, around dingoes. You might find yourself on K'gari or Fraser Island.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 48:36
Oh yeah, that'd be cool. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful country with a lot of very unique species. Um, so I'm excited to be here for sure.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 48:50
Katherine, I know you're I'm also interested in wild horses, as you mentioned earlier. And I know also that you've just arrived in Australia, so this may be an unfair question, but do you have any thoughts already about Brumbies, Australian wild horses, the Brumby?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 49:09
Yeah, uh, to be honest, I don't know that much about them, but from the limited information that I've gathered, it sounds like the United States has a lot of similar concerns in terms of like overpopulation and environmental degradation caused by feral horses, while also, um, managing these, you know, deeply emotional and complex beings in a ethical way. And so it's definitely a controversial, um, concern. Um, but I think I would love to learn more about it cuz it sounds like there are a lot of parallels, um, between what the US and what Australia is experiencing. And I think we could capitalize on that and help each other out.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 50:06
Yes.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 50:06
Yes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 50:08
Katherine, what advice would you give a young person who may be watching this podcast advice about starting in the world of conservation and wildlife research?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 50:21
I think there's like the common advice of like, do everything you can get your hands on and like say yes to everything. And I definitely agree. I think that's what gave me a lot of opportunities, but I think What has really led me to be able to do certain studies, um, that I'm really passionate about is really listening to my gut and what, not only like what am I interested in, but what actually makes me feel like energized and alive and like I'm making the world a better place. I'm just like, very fulfilled. And that takes a lot of introspection. You can't really just answer that like instantly sometimes. But I think if you want to be strong and successful and confident in your career, you need to be able to have a strong foundation with— within yourself. So really taking the time to, uh, think about what are your core values and like, what do you really want to do for yourself and for the world is a really important, um, first step and something that you should continue, uh, reflecting on. Um, and especially as like a young person, like I experienced this for sure. Um, but, and I know a lot of other people like you don't quite know exactly everything that you really stand for and like care about, and that's fine. You don't have to have every, like, no, this is who I am. Like, that's the point of kind of your 20s, I would say, is like figuring out really who you are and what you wanna be. But you know, having just to keep an open mind. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 52:20
Easy to—
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 52:20
yeah, yeah. Having a few just like core values and like things that, um, you really know make you like light up is a really good compass. And I think there's also like a difference between, um, that pursuing stuff that you like and because you think is like cool versus what makes you really feel like fulfilled? And I think when you pursue the latter, the universe will open doors for you. And for example, with me, I, um, was able to study wolves in Yellowstone because I went to my now, uh, principal investigator and was talking to her like, like, she has done some amazing work on like chimpanzees and wolves and like gone to all 7 continents, like very cool. But I came up to her and I was like, I want to study elk and how humans are changing their behavior. And that's a cool topic, but I think like at school when there's this professor who's like studying wolves and like helping them being reintroduced, like no one really wants to— like elk seem, you know, studying like elk-human interactions on like the roadside. Doesn't sound all that flashy, but I asked her about that with no really like goal of studying predators, but because I genuinely wanted to do a study that counters like narratives of animal behavior and especially with like a prey animal and like a herd animal and often, um, overpopulated and nuisance species. I'm very curious, how are humans causing our own downfall by like impacting animal behavior? And so I was really pursuing like something that I actually value and less of like this like flashy, cool thing. And then my professor's like, that's great. I love that. And like, people can tell when you're pursuing something because it's aligned with your values versus like, oh, this looks cool. Um, and because I did that, then I was able to study wolves and do something that I think is, uh, even can be even more impactful because it was studying this very controversial species and really learning the intricacies and like what's beyond, like beyond what we initially expect, um, with this animal. So yeah, following, following what you really, uh, believe in, I think people will respect you a lot more because there are so many people that will go up to like a professor and be like, I want to study wolves, I want to study bears, I want to study snow leopards. Like everyone wants to do that, but the way you're able to actually study these really cool charismatic species is like doing, like pursuing it because you genuinely, a question that really aligns with your values and less like a topic. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 55:49
Katherine, do you ever, are you ever kept awake at night worrying about wildlife?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 55:56
Oh yeah. Um, I think something I, I think something I'm working on is like feeling the negative feelings. And I think with this kind of thing, it's so daunting that I like feel like if I think about it, I like won't be able to move. It's like being a Gen Zer faced with The catastrophe of climate change and like our world really could end, um, in my lifetime is extremely daunting and that's not really fair to put on one person. And so I think I, what I've been doing is breaking it up into little pieces and thinking about what do I feel like I could do that actually makes a difference and isn't draining? Um, I think it's a really— it's a balance of like finding, you know, you want to solve it all and like stop pollution and deforestation and wildlife trade and change perceptions about animals, but you know, that's not doable for anyone. And so it's extremely daunting, but I think really coming back to thinking about what makes me feel the most alive and how can I use that to make the world a better place. And, um, I feel like what I've often told my friends when they've been feeling the same way is like, when you pursue what you genuinely love, like what you, not what you think is like really cool and whatever, but like what makes your soul nourished, then it naturally makes the world a better place. And it doesn't matter if you're involved in conservation or if you're an accountant or whatever. And for me, thinking about that, it's, um, environmental and indigenous justice-oriented way of life, um, justice-oriented way of life. Um, and I feel like that is how I'm able to sleep at night because I, um, I'm able to break up this huge problem into small bite-sized pieces. And so I think if everyone was able to do that, then that's how we can really make a difference and slow down climate change and a lot of the issues facing our world today.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 58:42
Is there one message that you would like to leave with the audience after the podcast is over and a message that you would like to stay with them?
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 58:51
I think I really encourage people to think about how they're treating others, both human and non-human, um, is kind of less than. And I think, um, how do you know that that tree like doesn't hurt, or when you cut it down, or like how do you know that that fish isn't lonely, or whatever? And, you know, um, I think really questioning your— how you treat others and your place in the world, um, ultimately will make you feel a lot more connected within yourself and within our home, which is nature. And I think a lot of us forget that. Um, and so, and this continuous questioning can be applied to anything, whether it's, you know, wildlife biology or it's social justice and, um, politics or whatever. But I think, um, questioning everything is really how you can make a change. Um, and I really encourage people to do that with their relationships with animals and people. And, um, when you're able to, uh, really dive into this compassion then it just—
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:00:21
it—
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 1:00:21
I think as Jane Goodall said, the greatest danger to our future is apathy. And when people are able to remember to be compassionate and question how things are perceived, and that's how you can make a difference.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:00:41
Yes, yes. Jane also said that, um, Every individual makes a difference and we choose whether we make a good difference or not, but we all do make a difference. Catherine, thank you so much for joining us today on Animals and Us. I love the way you are so, you're following your heart and as Joseph Campbell says, follow your bliss and doors open. And I think that that has been the story of your life so far and I hope the doors continue to open for you.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 1:01:14
Thank you so much. Thank you very much for having me. And I love that quote. I, um, definitely agree and I hope more people can do the same. It's been a huge privilege to speak with you and, um, yeah, I'm excited for, to listen to more episodes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:01:32
Thanks, Katherine. And I hope you have a thoroughly wonderful time in Australia. Thank you.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 1:01:37
Thank you so much.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:01:39
Take care. Animals and Us is a production of Kintsugi Heroes.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 1:01:46
Follow the sun.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:01:47
Thank you to Xavier Rudd for his permission to use Follow the Sun as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation.
Catherine Grady (Guest) · 1:02:15
Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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