Daniel Dougherty · 58 min
A self-described shy introvert who spent years avoiding podcasts opens up about surviving suicidal crises, a crisis of faith, and the unconditional love that pulled him back, and now steps forward to help others tell their own stories.
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Daniel Dougherty is a 47-year-old Colorado-born volunteer presenter who recently joined Kintsugi Heroes. He describes himself as shy and reserved, yet he has spent years learning that his real gift lies in helping others tell their stories and find genuine connection. He moved to Australia with his wife Jenna in 2019, and now wants to step into hosting conversations that matter, even though it terrifies him.
Growing up in a close Catholic family as the middle of five children, Daniel learned early what it meant to value faith, nature, and human connection. At 16, watching his brother leave for the Naval Academy forced him to stop being defined by that bond and become his own person. Years later, after three years studying for priesthood, Daniel faced a crisis of faith that spiralled into depression, anxiety, and suicidal moments. It was not therapy or medication that saved him, but two friendships and his wife's steady, non-judgmental presence. They did not try to fix him. They simply gave him space.
Through those dark years, Daniel learned that failure is survivable, and so is success. He learned what masculinity actually means: not bravado or power over others, but the courage to be yourself and use what you have for those you love. His faith, once a burden, became an expression of love. Today, at 47, he says life gets better each year. Now he steps forward to help others find and share the stories they need to tell, so that people searching their own difficult moments can find the story that reaches them.
“I was actually suicidal for, um, on a couple different occasions. Um, which scared me, but I think also other people who knew me.”
“There were two really good friends in my life at that time who they don't even realize this, but how much their just unjudgmental friendship meant.”
“I'm just amazed by just how powerful a story could be when told and I'm interested in how can it be told genuinely.”
The hero, today
Daniel was afraid of hosting because he's shy by nature, but he loves connecting with people and believes in the power of genuine storytelling to reach those who need to hear it. When Daniel watched his brother leave for the Naval Academy at 16, it forced him to stop defining himself as 'Tim's little brother' and start becoming his own person. During his grandmother's final illness, Daniel learned that saying goodbye to someone is not an ending but a continuation, a shift that shaped how he approaches loss. The two people who saved Daniel during his crisis of faith and suicidal moments were not people who tried to fix him; they gave him non-judgmental space and unconditional support to work things out himself. Daniel learned that masculinity means being brave enough to be the best version of yourself, not the version someone else is, and using your particular gifts to care for those around you.
Yes. Daniel Dougherty is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Daniel was afraid of hosting because he's shy by nature, but he loves connecting with people and believes in the power of genuine storytelling to reach those who need to hear it.
When Daniel watched his brother leave for the Naval Academy at 16, it forced him to stop defining himself as 'Tim's little brother' and start becoming his own person.
During his grandmother's final illness, Daniel learned that saying goodbye to someone is not an ending but a continuation, a shift that shaped how he approaches loss.
The two people who saved Daniel during his crisis of faith and suicidal moments were not people who tried to fix him; they gave him non-judgmental space and unconditional support to work things out himself.
John Milham (Host) · 00:05
Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 00:20
Today, John Milham is joined by Daniel Doherty. Formerly from the US, Daniel and his wife moved to Australia in 2019. He is joining the Kintsugi Heroes team as a volunteer presenter. Although he says he's a bit shy and reserved and likes to be in the background, he loves helping people share stories and genuinely connect. Daniel grew up in Colorado, the middle child of 5 kids in a close and supportive family. He appreciates faith, nature, and the importance of family and good friends. Life has given him many chances to test his values and reflect on who he is. Daniel has faced anxiety, depression, and a crisis of faith and shares how unconditional support helped him through tough times. Now he enjoys life more each year and wants to help others share their stories. We hope you enjoy meeting Daniel. Ladies and gentlemen and fans of Kintugi Heroes, we're back again and we're talking today. We have a— I say this all the time, Dan, but I mean it this time. Like, it's not just fluff. It's a very significant chat today because I am going to walk through and learn a little bit about a man who is joining the Kintsugi Heroes team as a volunteer presenter and so on. So people out there might be listening to Dan hosting other conversations very soon. And so we're the listeners of Kintsugi Heroes. This is the stories that matter. Series, like the general series of Kintsugi Heroes. And the reason that matters is because we want to get to know the man we're going to see on video. And I want to find out a little bit more about, you know, the obvious good looks and sort of, you know, clean living that you have, right? Let's see if we can go a bit deeper and find out about how you ended up here. So Daniel Dougherty, welcome to a Kintsugi Heroes podcast. It's wonderful to have you on.
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This conversation includes daniel joins kintsugi heroes as a volunteer presenter, why storytelling matters more than the noise, the fear that ai will replace human stories, born in colorado, now 47 and enjoying life more each year, brother leaves for naval academy, daniel learns who he is and discovering his gift for connecting, then terrified of what comes next.
John Milham (Host) · 02:27
Yeah, thanks, John. Thanks for the invite. And thanks for hosting. It is a little bit ironic that I'm going to be doing hosting of a podcast when I think by nature, I'm a little bit shy, a little bit reserved. I like to be in the background. But I love helping people share stories. I love communicating with people. And I love connecting. So I'm really, really happy to be doing this. And it's something that you have been wanting to do for a long time, but because of fear and discomfort and something I'll get to later, I've avoided podcasts for a long, long time. So I'm actually pretty excited, even though nervous about coming and having this chat. So really appreciate that.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 03:09
Mate, it's, that's the perfect way to start. I love that idea of like you love connecting and that curiosity will drive you through into that uncomfortable zone and then until you make it comfortable, right? That circle of concern concept. But do you think, like, what is it about podcasting? So every man and his dog's now dropping a podcast onto us, onto the world. Not a bad thing. I don't think there's a finite limit of conversations that the world will carry. But what do you, what in particular do you see as the power of podcasts?
John Milham (Host) · 03:47
The podcast, just by the sense that here in the modern world that there are so many podcasts that you go on, look for almost any topic you want. So there's a power there and there's an interest. What I think it is, what I really think comes down to is the power of storytelling and not just the power to be entertained by a story, But the power to share of ourselves, share knowledge, share experience. I'm just amazed by just how powerful a story could be when told. And I'm interested in how can it be told, like, genuinely? How can you genuinely connect? And that's hard to do over a digital media, I think. I'd much rather do it in person, face to face. It's not always possible, but to me it's just, it is that power of story. Yeah. And the power of podcasting is the storytelling and that sharing of an experience. And people love when people share their story. Much more comfortable with people sharing their story than with me sharing mine, which is why I'm going to be a host instead of a guest.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 05:05
Which is perfect. As an introvert, which you mentioned earlier, right? Maybe taking that approach means that curiosity is possible, but you don't, you know, there's plenty of space for them to take the center stage, the platform. You're not pushing yourself in front of them, hopefully, right?
John Milham (Host) · 05:23
And to me, that's become some of the more powerful stories are when there's not an agenda. And of course, we all have an agenda of some level and You know, things, hopefully our stories have a point to the story, but how the story is shared and that experience. And even in the podcast, I love that it's sometimes not scripted. Yeah, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to come out of this. And that's exciting, that kind of little bit of the unknown. So some of those things are very exciting, I think, and very interesting parts of a podcast.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 05:56
Yeah, it's interesting you talk about the genuine nature of the connection in a podcast. And I love that, but I'm quite afraid of the impact AI is making. Like, literally sometimes at first glance can't tell anymore whether something is AI or not. It doesn't— after a while I feel like it becomes obvious, but I'm really worried that the stories we're now sharing aren't even human.
John Milham (Host) · 06:27
Right. I can guarantee— well, if you could believe me, I am human. Yeah, here I am. Who knows what you're going to do to the AI, uh, with the AI after the editing and all that. Now, uh, that's a really, really good point. Um, and the AI, there's a lot of benefits to AI, and at the same time, uh, it's something that, yeah, scares the bejesus out of me that, you know, what is it going to do? How is it going to, um, eliminate or get in the way or completely destroy and some— the human-connected aspect that stories and a lot of interpersonal communication is built around. But I don't have a whole lot of control over the AI future, and there are a lot of wonderful things that can be done with it. So that's a whole nother— maybe that could be a whole podcast series of humans and AI.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 07:24
What a great idea. Because here's something I want to throw at you, right? I think podcast hosts are on the front line of protecting the humanness in technology going forward because we vet the person in front of us. So if I know you, you claim to be human, right? I know AIs can do that, right? So, but I know you are human., right? And I'm talking to you as a human to a human, and that is important, I think, to put those stories, those human stories on the table as a continued demonstration and a bulwark against the AI stories that are just flooding the internet, right? You're like, we're all— we have to sign up to entire channels that are AI, right?
John Milham (Host) · 08:13
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Um, and so Along those— along that line, um, the same thing with movies. Same thing with movies. Um, you have an— you could have an AI-created movie that and put together in just a few minutes with— you probably do the same script, the same, uh, storyline, um, a lot of the even better special effects. But I think at a certain level, it's missing something crucial.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 08:40
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 08:40
Um, and we're gonna— we're just gonna have to learn how to deal with that as humans. We're just going to have to evolve with that. But as a podcast host, and that's something that is important to me, is while we can, while we do have that opportunity before AI—
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 08:59
before Elon gets, you know, locks us down and stops us from talking.
John Milham (Host) · 09:03
Exactly. So as long as we have this freedom to do that, and also it's a privilege and a responsibility. It's all those things. Yeah, to tell stories.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 09:15
Yeah, beautiful.
John Milham (Host) · 09:16
Yeah, I just, I want to, and I want to get better at telling my story. Yeah, but certainly, I certainly do because I think it's important.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 09:24
Good thoughts. And on that line, Daniel, you know, clearly there are a couple of things we can read from you. You're like, I know we're not meant to sort of be superficial, but A, accent, right? Yes. You know, you know, B, that you're, you're not You're not old, but you're not a spring chicken anymore. You've had a couple of years to learn how things work. And you're, as a result, the accent tells us that you're in a different country than you started out being. Tell us the story, some of those things that are relevant to those observations. Tell us.
John Milham (Host) · 09:58
Yeah, absolutely. One of the hardest parts of me telling my story is knowing what to include and what not to include, what's important What's a good anecdote? How to keep somebody interesting, keep somebody interested while at the same time getting from— I am 47 years old, just had my 47th birthday a few weeks ago.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 10:20
Happy birthday.
John Milham (Host) · 10:21
Thank you. And each year I'm actually enjoying life more and more, which is fascinating to me. Yeah, I'm really happy about that. But I do come from, from the accent. You can tell I come from the United States, born and raised in Colorado, outside of Denver, at the base of the Rocky Mountains, and grew up there, the middle of 5 kids, 2 parents who are still happily married, which is a real blessing. Yeah, right. And so we grew up there. Probably, I'd say middle-class family. I might say just a fairly normal upbringing. I don't want to use the word normal, but, um, yeah, it was a— it was an upbringing that, yeah, might seem kind of plain to a lot of people. Um, if we certainly had our chat, we've already had our challenges, and I don't want to bet, um, I think most of my story in 47 years didn't happen in the first few years of life when I was growing up. But a lot of my really formative things that happened there, things that were formative in my upbringing, the importance of family. Yeah, well, I love family, love them, love my family, love community. I love my dog who's just Is that how to say hello? Um, but, uh, really growing up, appreciation for, um, for my faith. Yeah. Um, for— I have a Catholic upbringing, um, I'm still a devout Catholic, um, which is very important to me. Uh, but really all these things, a lot of things that I hold deeply, um, I guess sacred, and that's, um, the power of nature.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 12:16
Yeah. The beautiful outdoors, the which is, you know, something you were surrounded, like, at the base.
John Milham (Host) · 12:22
Yeah, yeah. Look outside, is beautiful weather most of the time. Yeah, yeah. Uh, it was amazing. Um, so I did that and then learned from my family and friends, you know, how to interact with people, how to persevere in relationships, how to, um, you know, go through the highs and lows of life. But, um, I think there's like too many things that happened or too many things that influenced me. I find it very challenging to focus on many specifics.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 12:53
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 12:54
Yeah.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 12:55
Do you think it— sorry, do you think it rolls into like what you're describing is like an upbringing of genuine care and experiences and opportunity? That rolls into a set of values? Do you think that your values are shaped by some of those, like, you know, those understandings that you gain from that upbringing?
John Milham (Host) · 13:21
Yeah, absolutely. And so I think I've been very, very fortunate in life to have some really well-grounded, I would say, some really solid, healthy values. To be shown. And I was provided with opportunities to maybe test those, to step outside.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 13:44
Isn't it like—
John Milham (Host) · 13:45
Yeah, to step outside and to see, oh, are those my values, or are those just the values that I was raised with? And get to, to kind of where my life— those really, I think, where I really learned to have my values and stuff in a little bit further here in this conversation. But I think very, very fortunate to have that opportunity. And I think probably the most important things, you know, family, you know, my wife, Jenna, who's been absolutely fantastic for me. Fantastic part of my life. And, but family, friends, like, gosh, like, yeah, the importance of, uh, of good friends. Um, and I don't know, I don't— yeah, um, I could do again, I could do a whole podcast just on the—
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 14:52
well, you know, hopefully you'll get the chance, right? Because, you know, like, we know that the world is— can be a very lonely place for a lot of people.. And that social, you know, we take that often for granted, particularly men, right, in there, you know, in that, that age is coming up to, you know, those early, you know, sort of productive years with relationship and kids and work and all that stuff. So the power of friendship and the power of connecting to that social circle, that, that's not just a good value, it's good sense, isn't it?
John Milham (Host) · 15:25
It is, it is good sense. And I used to think that it was easy to have good friends. I am just by nature, I think I'm a pretty likable person, have conversations, I have good values, I think that are attractive to good people. And there's a lot, you know, at one point it was just, yeah, it seemed easy to have friends and friends were just people that you get along with, people that you you know, played with, people that you did things with. But it wasn't until really as an adult how much I appreciate, like, when somebody is really a really good friend. Because you go through different things and you go through different experiences, and people come in and out of your lives. And I mean, certainly have for me, um, even some really wonderful people that have been in my life for a period of time, and then we go different directions. Uh, but there's a few people that They've just been so important to me getting through different aspects of life. And yeah, some of them are family and some of them are not blood related, but just incredible friends, which is really, really important to me.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 16:40
So, and you mentioned, you know, well, you know, like, I love the conviction and that I would agree that that's so important, you know, like bringing that kind of the primacy of relationships in your life, right, is so important. But you mentioned the tests, right? So like nothing you hold is valuable until you understand why you're hanging on to it, right? In my mind, how did you learn, right? What was the test that gave you that lesson?
John Milham (Host) · 17:11
Yeah, there were a few things. The first one that I actually kind of remember really starkly was my junior year, going into my junior year of high school. So going into sophomore year, I told you I was the middle of 5 children. I had an oldest, my oldest sister. We're all about 2 years apart, my oldest sister, and then is my brother. And my brother and I were really, really good friends. We were very, very tight. Did a lot of different things together, caused trouble together, played together, had fun. But we really got along well, became really close. And then I had two younger sisters as well. And it wasn't until my brother— going into my junior year, when my brother graduated and he went off, he went off to the military academy, the Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland. Yeah. And I didn't really process until watching him when we dropped him off and he went off to boot camp, and he was excited to go. But watch— watching him walk away, yeah, like, man, that just hit me like a ton of bricks. I just— not a typically a real emotional person, but I just— I broke down in tears and I I cried for hours and hours. My God, here's my— my life is gone. Um, it's different.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 18:44
It's—
John Milham (Host) · 18:45
I'm at a loss, but just a real powerful sense of loss. Yeah. And he was brother since then, and that was 30, almost 30 years ago now. Um, That was, yeah, almost 30 years ago. I had some great times with my brother since then. We've had some great moments, like, since then. So it wasn't a loss, but it was definitely a change, right? Um, and so that was really the first time, going on to probably 16 years old, that I've heard to self-identify as I'm no longer my brother's brother. I'm no longer Tim's little brother. I'm now me. And something, a little bit of a regret, but more of a learning that I was so focused on being my brother's brother. I had two little sisters that needed a big brother as well. I wish I would have interacted with them more, not necessarily been nicer to them, not necessarily anything else other than I just wish I would have interacted with them more. So those are, so that was the first time that I was just like, wow, I'm trying to become my own person. I'm trying to become a man. I'm trying to become an individual, figure out life. I'm no longer my brother's brother, which was— seemed to be— which I didn't realize until later was my biggest identity.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 20:08
Yeah. Wow. I love that perspective. So it's like, it's very self-aware, the idea, like you were going through a transition. Was that like a rite of passage? Do you feel like that was a moment where you kind of grew up?
John Milham (Host) · 20:23
It was, um, yeah, there's— I feel like I was lucky in life as well. There were several different rites of passage. I was involved in the Boy Scouts, and they had, you know, different rank advancements and, um, etc. And I was privileged enough to become an Eagle Scout, which I was— a rite of passage, um, was an honor. With sports teams and stuff going, and, you know, you go through as a the first year of high school and you're the low person on the pecking order, right? And hazing was a little bit more accepted back then than it is now, but different rituals of acceptance. So went through some of those, but that was the first time that I really internalized having to step up.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 21:09
So you were emotionally impacted then, but the insight you shared with us now, is that from reviewing? Like, is that like, you know, the understanding that comes with you know, as you grow in sophistication in life, right?
John Milham (Host) · 21:23
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I had none. I had no— at that time, I had very little understanding of why I was crying my ball— crying my eyes out, why I was bawling, you know. It's just like, this is awful, this feeling is terrible, I never want to feel this again.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 21:42
In learning, like, in particular those transitions, So often that's an area where men in particular, in my experience, struggle to make that adjustment, right? Like, we tend to cling on to something we're comfortable with on an emotional stretch, right? So, you know, quite happy taking on physical challenges, you know, like putting yourself at risk, right, without a bit— with barely a thought.
John Milham (Host) · 22:08
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 22:09
But moving into that emotional DMZ can be really challenging at times, right? Because, you know, that's not our, you know, we haven't been given necessarily all of the training, right? But it's, you know, so the learning that you went through at that moment, do you think it served you well? Was that something you had to recover from or was that something you grew from?
John Milham (Host) · 22:32
Both. And I mean, it certainly served me well. And at some point I had to break up, break off from an identity I'd just been raised with. And, um, yeah, it wasn't awful. I mean, it certainly wasn't awful. I had a very good upbringing. It was an awful position, but it would have been awful to stay that way or live life the rest of my life that way. Would have been a real tragedy. Yeah. Um, so I think certainly learned from it. And these conversations are— I didn't start this conversation 20 minutes ago. I didn't know I was gonna be talking about that instance. Right. And absolutely. It taught me a lot. And it gives me a lot to reflect on. I love reflecting on things. I'm a reflective— I call myself a reflective extrovert. Yeah, because I do. I love engaging with people. I get my energy from other people, but I need time to sit there and reflect. And I love reflecting on situations and on what happened and how I've become who I am. I love those things too. So it has— that was a great opportunity to reflect, and, um, it told me like how much I loved my brother. Yeah, the power of that was, um, pretty profound. And my family, you know, I lost a brother. And this is— I'm actually— and this part is still probably pretty true about me. When I'm going through a situation or grieving, etc., I find it very, very challenging to grieve and to support others at the same time. Yeah.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 24:21
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 24:21
Yeah. I've had to learn kind of compartmentalize at times because they both are important. But I find it very, very challenging to grieve and to support others, where I'd love to just be able to say, okay, we're grieving together and we're all in this together doing it. And it's not that simple.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 24:40
No, no, no, definitely. Wow, that's a great— that's a really nice insight. I love the idea of reflecting. In my mind, uh, you know, like we need to be bold in life to start with two things, which is identity and safety. I need to know who I am and where I am, and I need to know that I'm okay regardless of what's coming. So before I can step out, and that begins with reflection, understanding my gifts and talents. Is that how you've used it over time as you learned that lesson? Have you been okay with discovering who you are, what, what gifts you have, what talents you bring?
John Milham (Host) · 25:22
Great. That's a great question, John. That's a fantastic question because I don't have a simple answer. I don't even know how to talk through that answer. But the answer is, yeah, I do. I love self-discovery. I love, I even love sharing my gifts. I love when I'm good at something or can offer something that other people appreciate. Like, I, that's part of connecting. Yeah, yeah. That's part of being the thing of connecting. And I think most people that know me, maybe everybody that knows me well, would say, yeah, that's something that I do. That's a gift that I have is to genuinely want to connect with others, to bring others into connection, to be a bridge builder type thing. Like, that's, that's who I am. So to learn that about myself Yeah, it's exciting. Yeah, it's interesting. And at the same time, John, I get terrified, absolutely terrified when I learn something about me and then I have the expectation either from society or from myself or from family, friends, whatever, that all right, now I'm expected to do something with this thing that I just now learned.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 26:38
Yeah. Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 26:39
And I get terrified of that. And that's something else I've had to grapple with over the years is that, I mean, it's anxiety, but a lot of times it's just downright terror of different situations.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 26:55
So I think that's such an important thing to share with people, right? The idea, like, that, you know, at the ground, that's, you know, people understand that thought will manifest into something like imposter syndrome or, you know, into a feeling of worthlessness, right? And it can be a vulnerable place. So working through that, feeling that terror and stepping into the unknown, obviously you managed to do that. You moved countries, for instance, right? That's not easy. So, you know, do you have any thoughts like on that terror? You processed it in some way. How did you do that?
John Milham (Host) · 27:37
Yeah, I mean, that has been quite a quite a process. My first 18 years of life, almost 19 years, my family did a lot of traveling. We did a lot of family trips together, which were great. If you've ever seen the movie, it's an American movie with Chevy Chase called Vacation. Yeah, that was our family.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 27:58
The Roadster, right?
John Milham (Host) · 28:00
The Roadster. We would pile in. We had a little bit bigger car. We had a van that we would pile in, but anywhere in between 5 and I think at one point we had 10 passengers driving in. Wow.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 28:12
Did you have grandma on the roof?
John Milham (Host) · 28:14
She might've been. I don't know what was on the roof. So yeah, we've had so many good laughs with it because a lot of it was so real for— Did you go to Wally World? We did not go to Wally World 'cause it doesn't exist, but we did go to Disneyland. We went to a few other things and it was always piling in the car and driving across the country. Uh, we did have our engine blowout in the Arizona desert. We had, um, we got to the Grand Canyon only for it to be dark and the sun had set, so we didn't see the Grand Canyon.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 28:47
You guys really were the Griswolds.
John Milham (Host) · 28:49
Oh my gosh, it was, yeah, too true, right? It's all my traveling as a kid though was in the United States, and we saw a lot of United States, very educational. But it was also very, I guess, familiar. It was all, it was all the US, right? Wasn't until I was an adult, in my, probably my early 20s, that I got to step outside and go to— I went to Europe for the first time. And so starting to realize, wait, so not only am I not the center of the world, being just me, as Americans, I just say we tend to be egocentric as well. The world revolves around America in a lot of ways. And so I had to learn, oh, I guess there are other things out there. It's not just the US. And so all these things just kind of enlightening to discover. And so I'm adventurous, but at the same time, gosh, it was hard to leave. I hate saying goodbye to things. But there were a few in that process of learning, of growing. I did learn ways to do it when, for an example, my grandmother was my dad's mom who grew up not too far, or when we were growing up, she didn't live in the same locale. We'd go there for Sunday dinners. Yeah. Um, so she became quite close to her. Um, I had moved away for uni, went to a place called the Catholic University of America in Washington, DC. Um, but that was a good 30-hour drive from home or a 3-hour plane ride.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 30:35
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 30:36
Um, and while I was in uni, uh, Grandma got sick. Um, she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and given, you know, just weeks to live. And I remember that feeling of my brother, losing my brother just to boot camp.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 30:52
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 30:52
Like, ah, I don't want to go and say goodbye. Like, I'm just going to stay out here. I'm just going to pretend it doesn't happen. I'll live my life out here and then I'll go back for the funeral. Yeah. So I don't have to say goodbye. My mom really encouraged me. So, Dan, nobody ever— I've never heard anybody regret going and seeing somebody for the last time. And I've heard a lot of people who do regret that they didn't go. Yeah. So she basically said, we're going to find a way to get you on a plane, get you out here. Which, which we did. And I went there and had the probably not probably still the most beautiful, peaceful, serene experience that I've ever had. And it was dealing with death. So that was really— Grandma, I had about, oh, maybe an hour that we sat there, we sat there and talked. I don't remember what we talked about. Just, just a great conversation. It wasn't sad. She told me about life, told me some life lessons. My grandfather had died a few months before that. She was just looking forward to going home and you know, being with Grandpa again. And at the same time, she was not in denial about what was going on. She just— she knew there was family around. She knew I had come from Washington, D.C. to visit her. And so it's just a really— when I talk about connectedness, say, just a really peaceful connection. And then, yes, she gave me— my grandfather used to make rosaries. Rosaries are Catholic prayer beads. My grandfather used to make those. He taught me how to make it when I was a kid. And, and she took out one out and she, but she gave it to me. She's like, well, I don't really need this anymore. Here, why don't you take it? I still have it. I still carry it around with me most days. Yeah. So it was this really powerful thing. And then in a classic, I say a classic Dan moment, those people who have come to, to know me realize that I could take a really powerful, meaningful moment. And just by a little twist, make it awkward and, uh, just to change it around a little bit. So we said— I said my goodbyes, and then I really— I walked out the door and about to drive home, and I realized my car keys are in by my grandmother's bed.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 33:23
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I call them the, um, the, uh, shopping aisle moments, right, where you bump into a friend in one aisle and then, you know, have a chat, catch up, say goodbye, and then unfortunately bump into them every other aisle after that. You can't even— well, you can't look at them, right, because you've already said goodbye, right?
John Milham (Host) · 33:46
So, right, yeah. So, uh, so it was, um, it was awkward, but she handled it like a champ. Uh, we had just one more quick moment, um, And that was the last time I saw her. And but it's not a sad— wasn't a sad— even to this day, that wasn't a sad goodbye. It was a very, oh, very powerful. Yeah. And so I learned a lot about letting go, but it not being a final ending, but just being a continuation to a beginning. So I found that to be very, very powerful. It's something I look to. That's not to say that everything since then has been an easy transition or the easy goodbye. Far from it. So I think from there, just another thing that really— two other things that were quite impactful for me that I learned a lot with a lot of growth. And there's many, many other things, but two things that I'll touch on. One was when I went into, called the seminary, or I went to religious formation thinking that being a Catholic priest was going to be the way that I was going to best—
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 35:02
The calling, did you feel?
John Milham (Host) · 35:03
The calling.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 35:04
Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 35:05
I felt the call. Yeah, I felt the call and it wasn't a lightning strike moment or it wasn't a suddenly sit up in bed and say, oh, I got to do this. It was things laying out in life, a path being laid out in life that was, I think, I was being invited to take. It's the best way I could explain it. But through others, through conversations, through timing of situations, through internal drive or internal, say, maybe internal urges, maybe, but quiet urges for things that ultimately ended up being good and healthy and life-giving for myself and for others as well.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 35:57
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 35:57
So that's what I thought I wanted to do. But after 3 years of that, I came to the decision that I no longer wanted to be on that path. And that led to a really, really challenging few years. That was in my late 20s.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 36:19
Can I ask, you changed, you know, the path. Was that because you had changed? Did you have a crisis of faith, or did you, you know, grow and understand something, or did you find out about the choice you'd made more and said, oh, that's not exactly how I imagined it?
John Milham (Host) · 36:41
Yes. I think it's a combination of all those things. And it really, you know, John, it really wasn't clear to me that why I shouldn't be on this path anymore.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 36:53
Yeah. Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 36:54
I just really didn't want to be on it. Yeah. And whether it was I really wasn't called to that way of life, whether it was, um, yeah, selfish motivation of youth, certainty, you know, right, life of— right, certain— this life of uncertainty is, um, yeah, I can't handle it. Um, but it really came down to really having, yes, several just, um— I think not only crisis of faith, but really, uh, just had a mental breakdown.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 37:32
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 37:33
Wow. And so the— like, everything, um, yeah, um, just everything that I had thought I knew or everything that I thought had made sense was no longer viable in my life.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 37:48
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 37:48
Um, and so a combination It was still really, really complicated. But a combination of faith crisis, anxiety, depression set in. You know, tried to get treated with different medications, different counseling. Then I didn't think I needed medication. I was like, well, I'm too good for this. I don't need— I could do this without medication. And so I take myself off the medication. I would go, oh, I don't like what my therapist is saying. I'm gonna go talk to a different therapist. And then I don't like what he's saying. I'm going to go back over to this one. Oh, that's too hard. I was a mess for a while to the point that I was actually suicidal for— on a couple of different occasions, which scared the— scared me. But I think also other people who knew me. Yeah. Again, I said I came from a pretty good upbringing, had good values. I had support, I had friends, I had, um, some economic means. All these things that I would look at and say—
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 38:52
they're so— they're what they call risk factors, right? Social determinants. Yeah. So what was the protective factor that kept you going?
John Milham (Host) · 39:10
Um, I think one is just, um, like faith, um, that although I thought I'd lost my faith, although it seemed like it wasn't there, I couldn't grasp anything, um, I think it was a couple, a couple things. One, there were two really good friends, um, in my life at that time who— they don't even realize this, but how much they're just unjudgmental, um, friendship meant. It was— yeah, um, and one of them I don't even keep in touch with anymore. They were a friend who, um, yeah, um, we're just good friend, really good friends for a short period of time. Yeah, I'm helping each other out on a few different things, but, um, that friendship really, for whatever reason, just really gave me, um a little bit of foothold. And then the second one, yes, my, my partner and my wife, Jenna, who really not only stood beside me during some really, really dark moments, but she's was able to connect some dots that hadn't been connected before in some of my relapses and and some of my behaviors. So she just, yeah, very, very, uh, she's just such a foundation. But so it was really kind of that non-judgmental, not trying to figure things out for me, just giving me the space to figure things out. So, um, so those two things were, um, and those people. So then, yeah, just Yeah, being married to Jenna and having an opportunity to grow in a lot of these things with her has been, yeah, really, really incredible. Yeah. And the last, or the last episode was probably 11 or 12 years ago now.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 41:19
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 41:19
I had a really bad, um, depressive episode, so Um, with that, those were things that I learned. I mean, those are things that, yeah, now, um, as I said, life's been good, you know, going 47 years, and each year seems to keep getting better than the next. Um, so that's for some of those reasons.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 41:42
Yeah. The, um, the nature of, um, you know, when you, uh, the nature of unconditional nonjudgmental support you know, can change everything, right? So it was— it sounds like that was crucial to you at that time. What did you learn about that too? You know, like, because going through what you've gone through can't fail to change you, right? So, you know, what did you— what did— where did you come— get to as a result of that?
John Milham (Host) · 42:14
Yeah. I think that one of the big things that I've learned, and I have to, like, when I say when I've learned, this is for myself, because what other people have told me, um, that it's okay to fail.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 42:33
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 42:33
And failure is, it's a, it's still a scary word for me. Um, I'm not sure, I was afraid to fail and I was also afraid to succeed. Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 42:43
Um, Succeeding takes you to a higher level of failure.
John Milham (Host) · 42:47
Right? Exactly, exactly, John, exactly. So in that sense, it was just one of those experiences that I had to experience myself. I am fantastic at being able to learn from other people's experiences intellectually. But to actually go through it myself, It's a different level, and that's what I needed. I mean, these things— I needed to experience that love unconditional. Yeah, I needed to experience it in a way that said, yeah, I really screwed up big time in some of these areas. Yeah. And you know what, I'm not proud of it. I'm not glad. I'm not glad that it— some of those things happened, other than I'm glad where I am, where I am now. Yeah.. So those things, just learning, I have to learn by doing things myself. And all those things were about learning that.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 43:44
There's so much stigma around what, you know, around those, those type of experiences in the community. How do you see other people going through that now? You know, is that, and, and what do you now know about the community itself?
John Milham (Host) · 44:02
You know, Yeah, um, I really feel for our community, and community both at a, um, micro— kind of microscopic level, you know, family, friends, neighborhood, and our larger online community in the global community. So many of the communities, at least that I'm involved with, that I'm involved in, really just don't know how to deal with life situations. They don't have the structure for, um, dealing with different events. Um, and for— I just— I'm with you that we talked earlier. Sometimes boundary— either boundaries or, um, processes— like, I don't care. I don't care about them, but I know that they're important.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 44:54
So I'm glad that other people Well, I don't care about them for me, right? But, you know, if they're causing other distress outside, of course that's a priority for me.
John Milham (Host) · 45:04
Yeah.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 45:05
You know, to observe. I just don't recognize them that, you know, like it's not—
John Milham (Host) · 45:09
that's where I'm at. So not that they're not important, that, uh, just, I don't, I just don't really think about it much. I don't really, uh, yeah. Um, so in that sense, in that sense, the community community. Gosh, there's a lot— there's so much talk right now about mental health. Yeah, about the importance of it. But not very many of us as humans really concepts— really grasp that concept of what is a good mental health. We know what we'd like it to be, but to live it or to know how it works, um, I don't know. We have a long— we have a long way to go. We do.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 45:48
Yeah, when it's okay to have distress and just be open about that, you know, we're, we're not there yet, you know, and that's, that's okay.
John Milham (Host) · 45:58
Learn for me learning that it's okay not to be okay. That's a kind of a common phrase. But like you just, people, people still tell me, I have a manager at work who says, yeah, Dan, when you're not working, when you're just being you.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 46:16
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 46:17
So much easier to, you know, to engage, or, uh, you know, you're so much more powerful with the, you know, your messaging and stuff. So just be you. Yeah. And so I think that's what I've tried, really tried to learn, and who I am. So if I'm going to just be me, if that's a good thing— and I think it is— but if it is to just be me All right. To be okay with that. And part of being me is, all right, I'm going to get anxious. I'm going to lose my train of thought. I'm going to get focused on something while missing out on the big picture of something else. Right. I'm going to take my grandma's goodbye conversation and I'm going to have to come back and revisit it looking for my keys. Right. Like, that's a part of me as well. Like, yeah. So I'm just being okay with that and laughing about it. But yeah, really just coming to terms with it's okay. And I've gotten pretty good at it in most situations. So I don't know, I would love to, John, like getting them to like this point. I hope to have these. I mean, I'm really, really looking forward, not just I hope, I'm really looking forward to other people sharing their story with me. If I could be like what you're doing for me right now, appreciate that. If I could be that for somebody else, I think there's some good to happen.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 47:45
Absolutely.
John Milham (Host) · 47:46
Absolutely.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 47:47
And, you know, you're— and it's a gift as well as a receipt. You know, it's give and receive, right? Because like, I feel like you're giving me a gift of your insight and wisdom, which has been amazing, you know, which has been amazing. And I want to take back to something you said much earlier. Where you talked about saying goodbye to your brother and being upset, but realizing that you had to be a big brother to your sisters, right? And I got this sense, the picture for there was that rite of passage to a man, right? So talking, you know, my interest around masculinity and so on, how do you see the role of a man, right? You know, you, you, you've talked so, um, caringly about your relationship with your wife and your family. It was a beautiful moment where you shared the goodbye with your grandmother. Not every man has the ability to articulate those caring, those nurturing moments, right? What do you think is masculinity?
John Milham (Host) · 48:52
Oh, it's a really— another really good question. And this is something that I think I knew what I thought it was, but something today that I think masculinity really— man, that's a tough question. Wow, I didn't know you're going to ask the toughest questions last, John. That was impressive.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 49:25
We've got a big finish, mate. Right, because guess what? Like, from this point, I, I'm not trying to trick you. I, I'm really genuinely interested because I love that idea of you stepping into that responsibility. Your response out of grief was not to hide but to step up, right? And I, I like— for me, that's a warrior's view of masculinity. Yet it's, you know, the, the, the gentleness of caring for your grandmother and so on is not That's not typical warrior.
John Milham (Host) · 49:56
Yeah, um, I think it's something that I appreciate, something that I appreciate. I think something that was modeled to me as well by my father, by other people in my family, by— I'd say the people that my parents chose to be around as we were growing up was that a sense of to be masculine, you And to be a man was one, it was to be brave. It was to take care of, it was to be responsible to do these things. But it was to do these things out of love. And to do these things out of care for what you can provide to those around you. So it wasn't— was there some of it? Absolutely. But it's not about just showing off. It's not just about trying to get attention. It's not about exerting your power and your force over those around you. It's some of those things we see in, I think, a distorted sense in everyday culture. But to me, it's using some nat— like very natural, primitive, and instinctual characteristics of, um, using what we— whatever it is, what we have for the gift of others. For me, it was yet to be a young man, um, to step up. I was never going to be this really macho, um, you know, testosterone-driven gay. I wasn't into, you know, fast cars and you know, war movies and other things like that, which my brother, he was— he, my brother loved those things.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 51:44
Now he joined the Navy.
John Milham (Host) · 51:45
Yeah, he joined the Navy. He was a pilot. He bought a sports car, you know.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 51:48
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 51:49
Graduation, right?
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 51:50
What was his name? Tom Cruise, was it?
John Milham (Host) · 51:52
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But that was never going to be me. And part of my learning as to going, stepping into becoming a man as a young man was being comfortable. It took a long time to be comfortable that I was never going to be the man my brother was. And to understand it's like just different. It's not less than, it's not, it's not inferior to what he did. It was just, that was never going to be where I was gonna be happiest. I was never going to be what I was created in this world to do. Um, and so just to come to terms with that— are there times when I'd like that? Yeah, I kind of fantasize about what it'd be like to do that. Absolutely.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 52:42
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 52:43
Um, but I know that's not me.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 52:45
Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 52:46
So, but to be a man, um, be masculine is to be the best version of, of yourself given what you're actually like, just naturally instinctually given.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 52:58
Yeah, that's a great answer. Well done. And of course, it's very impressive, um, you know, the strength and, um, the courage and vulnerability that it takes to share that, right? So, you know, like, that is— that to me is masculine, right?
John Milham (Host) · 53:14
So great.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 53:16
And, and on that point, now I, I do know I've got to let you go. I'm just being amazed, you know, so excited to share some of your thoughts, but You talk about, you know, some of that test you went through, the crisis of faith and the challenge. So where is faith in your life now?
John Milham (Host) · 53:37
Right.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 53:38
I see faith as I have faith because it performs a really useful function for me because faith is belief without evidence. And there are times where I just need to let go of the need to have the, you know, the see, hear, smell, touch, taste. I just need something that's bigger and beyond and incomprehensible for me to understand who I am.
John Milham (Host) · 54:05
How—
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 54:06
where is faith for you?
John Milham (Host) · 54:08
Yeah, uh, faith has definitely been a journey, um, and for me, faith has quite simply just become a, uh, profound Um, I don't want to say practice. I just— a proud or a profound display of love. Wow. Um, and that thing that— and where does that come from? Yeah, something that's bigger, something that is, uh, better. I have tried the, um— yeah, for me, yeah, it comes down to it's love. And what's that expression of love? What's that expression of love? Um, and what guides that love? Yeah, I look around, there's so many competing factors for my love, right? Um, a lot of them good, a lot of them not so good. But it really was solidified for me as the world changed, as the world developed quickly, and what— trying to find what are the true— like, when I say what are the truths, what are those things that I could count on in any situation? If I go back and I look at the way the world was, okay, I saw how it was for me then, but how's— I kind of— yeah, universal, universal truths is what I've been going kind of searching for. And as fast as the world is changing and as much as my life has been bounced around in different areas, the one thing that is, uh, that does continue to direct it, um, in a way that continues to make sense is a, yeah, path of love, um, towards others and just a faith. You said without, you know, belief without evidence that in the end, you know, down the road, what I'm doing now makes sense or what I'm doing now makes a difference. Yeah. Um, If not, without the faith and without me regularly practicing it, doing, you know, Spiritual Exercises and meditation, prayer, but also acts of service is really a big one. Without that, I'm not sure I would have much hope, to be honest. So it's where I rest my hope, and it gives me a lot. So I'd say it's not a Right now, it's not a huge obligation. It's not a huge, just a burden. No, it's something that is life-giving to me. Not always easy, but so for me, I just, I think I'll leave it at that. It's an expression of love.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 56:44
And I love that, just that line. It shouldn't be a burden, right? And I love that, that's where it is. Dan, thank you. Like, it's been absolutely awesome. I've opened you up and to find out a bit about you.
John Milham (Host) · 57:01
And I'm going to go hide. I'm going to go hide.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 57:03
No, no, you've answered the call.
John Milham (Host) · 57:05
I was exposed.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 57:05
You've been wonderful. And I'm really looking forward to seeing you have conversations with the people who share their stories with you. Welcome aboard and thank you so much for talking to me today on Stories That Matter with Kintsugi Heroes.
John Milham (Host) · 57:21
Ah, thank you, John. It's a real pleasure.
Daniel Dougherty (Guest) · 57:24
Awesome, brother.
John Milham (Host) · 57:30
Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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