Scott Baker
Scott Baker, the Content Alchemist
Scott was told he wasn't smart enough for medicine. AI helped him discover he thinks differently.
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Scott Baker
Scott was told he wasn't smart enough for medicine. AI helped him discover he thinks differently.
Hear this story
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Scott Baker was told he wasn't smart enough for medicine. A child who dreamed of being a doctor, he watched 60 Minutes and wanted to fix the world. Instead, his teachers redirected him, and for years he believed that redirection meant failure. What he didn't know was that he was neurodivergent, thinking differently in ways no one around him had language for. He read slowly, struggled with written words, but devoured hundreds of books after school. He needed to be interested to learn. He needed to understand, not just memorize. When a principal and a soccer coach saw something in him that his own family couldn't quite name, they became his anchors.
Life took him through fishing tournaments and a world title won not by instinct but by listening. It took him through an 18-year marriage that ended in 2017, a breakup so overwhelming that a mate's advice to find his North Facing Star became the thing keeping him afloat. It took him into work with video testimonials and AI tools, where something unexpected happened: he started asking AI the questions he was too afraid to ask a person. And it answered with such accuracy, reflecting back patterns in his family and his own life, that his ex-wife was stunned. That's when Scott understood. He wasn't less smart. He was differently smart. His dyslexia, his autism, his way of reverse-engineering problems from the end backwards, his endless curiosity, these weren't failures. They were how he saw the world. Now he helps his neurodivergent son by building bridges between what the boy loves and what he needs to learn. SimCity becomes the framework for law. Fortnite becomes biology. Scott turned the thing that broke him into the thing that helps others heal.
“You need to find the North Facing Star. That's it. And you focus on that. And that's for the kids. I felt like I was bobbling at sea without even an esky and I was about to drown.”
“I was a big dreamer. I wanted to be a doctor when I was younger. But I was told to change my academics because I wasn't smart enough. I was super keen to learn, but I was on the spectrum back in the day, which wasn't as known as well as it is now.”
“There was a major tragedy in the home, and at the time I thought I had been the contributor of the tragedy. But I found out years later that I was only a participant in a circumstance that was beyond a 4-year-old's comprehension.”
The hero, today
Scott carried the weight of a childhood tragedy for years, believing he was responsible for his mother's grief, until he learned decades later that he was only present at a moment of crisis he had no hand in causing. Scott won a world fishing title not because he was the best angler but because he committed to following expert advice exactly as given, teaching him that success often comes from listening rather than trusting his own instinct. Scott used AI to ask himself healing questions he would never have asked a person, and it showed him patterns in his own life and family that reflected back with such accuracy his ex-wife was stunned by how well it captured their relationship. Scott's neurodivergence means he processes information and solves problems differently than most people around him, and for decades he read that difference as a failure until AI helped him see it as a genuine strength. Scott teaches his neurodivergent son by building bridges between what the boy is interested in and what he needs to learn, turning SimCity into a framework for understanding law and Fortnite into a way to grasp biology.
Yes. Scott Baker is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Scott carried the weight of a childhood tragedy for years, believing he was responsible for his mother's grief, until he learned decades later that he was only present at a moment of crisis he had no hand in causing.
Scott won a world fishing title not because he was the best angler but because he committed to following expert advice exactly as given, teaching him that success often comes from listening rather than trusting his own instinct.
Scott used AI to ask himself healing questions he would never have asked a person, and it showed him patterns in his own life and family that reflected back with such accuracy his ex-wife was stunned by how well it captured their relationship.
John Milham (Host) · 00:07
Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. In this episode, John Millum is joined by Scott Baker, a self-described content alchemist and man of many talents.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 00:29
From dreaming big as a child to navigating an unexpected journey, Scott's story is both inspiring and deeply human.
John Milham (Host) · 00:37
He reflects on formative moments in his life, including influences from mentors, personal struggles, and the weight of childhood trauma that shaped his path. Through resilience and self-awareness, Scott found ways to cope and grow, embracing therapy, meaningful connections, and even the potential of AI to help him heal and evolve. Join us as Scott shares the challenges and triumphs that have bind his life and work. Enjoy this conversation with Scott Baker.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 01:09
So welcome to the Kintsugi Heroes listeners to another Kintsugi Heroes Stories That Matter and a conversation today with a man who is in many ways someone so interesting from a work point of view because he's a self-described Content Alchemist, which I love, right? Which is on the thing. But also, of course, you know, you're never just what you do. You are who you are and you're, and that's some of your life. And, uh, Scott has some amazing, uh, achievements and a beautiful family and, uh, a series of life events to share with us, uh, that shaped him and, um, and created who he is and how he engages with the world, which is what we're going to talk about today. So Scott Baker, welcome to Kintsugi Heroes: Stories That Matter. Thank you for coming along, mate.
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Scott's neurodivergence means he processes information and solves problems differently than most people around him, and for decades he read that difference as a failure until AI helped him see it as a genuine strength.
This conversation includes a man of many things, conversations with little scott, the men who showed up, a shared house, a crowd of role models, the tragedy he thought was his fault and world champion fisherman.
John Milham (Host) · 01:59
Well, thanks for having me, John. It's great to be here. And when you hear someone introduce you like that, it's like, who are you talking about? But yeah, I appreciate that.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 02:11
I love that idea. And maybe we can start with that idea because I believe identity is at the core of every man's journey through life, the more, the closer he is and the more certain about who he is and where he is, the more confident he is going someplace. How, who are you, Scott? And, um, and how did you get to where you are now? If you do know where you are now, you know, what was the journey, Scott? The, you know, we love the word journey. What was little Scott's thoughts about, uh, where he was going and, and, uh, where he wanted to be and, uh, how close is that?
John Milham (Host) · 02:46
Wow, that's really a confronting question right now, to be fair. Like, literally been thinking about that a lot these last few weeks, um, and exploring some of those things. So I would say, uh, I feel like I've had a few visits with my little Scott going, hey, hey, thanks for, uh, doing what you did, and, and, and all that type of stuff, in a bit of a, I suppose, maybe a occult healing type of approach. And I don't— I certainly, um, I think there's been some apologies to the young fella too when I was young, saying, hey, I thought things would be slightly better than they are now and would be in a week, as in I'd be in a better space right now, um, in terms of things that I had achieved. Or— but it's— but, but in fairness, maybe I'm in exactly where I need to be, um, because I'm been maybe a bit harsh on myself or other bits and pieces. But, um, as a little kid, I'd expected that, um, I was going to take on the world. And, uh, I was a big dreamer. I wanted to be a doctor when I was younger, and so I thought about that all the time. Um, and, uh, yeah, really had this strong emphasis of wanting to, um— I remember watching like 60 Minutes shows and getting really upset at kids that had either had cancer, had passed away, or things like that. And they really— I was like, geez, there's got to be something that can change that. And I think that's kind of stuck with me, but I didn't end up going into the medical space because I was told to change my academics because I wasn't smart enough. I was super keen to learn, but I was on the spectrum back in the day, which wasn't as known as well as it is now. And while I was fascinated with learning, it had to be something I was interested in. Um, but a lot of that fascinating— I think, I don't think I read many books at school, but I read, like, I've read hundreds of books since school, and it was kind of weird. I did more reading after, after school. Um, but I was very fortunate in my schooling. I went— my parents wanted me to be a plumber. Um, and they said, oh, we're going to take you out of private school and put you in another school. And And then, um, my principal from a school found out that they'd taken me out and they said, look, we, we can't afford it either. So he gave me a full scholarship, uh, let's say I remember anyway, to go back to the school. And, and it was kind of one of those, I had a soccer coach, um, and my principal that seemed, there were those two kind of men outside my life who had had a huge impact on that belief in me that I. I think I was seeking and looking for some, um, and so they had some really big, uh, big impacts on me.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 05:33
Wow, mate, there's, that's a, there's a lot in that, uh, just, uh, to unpack a little bit. First of all, um, I love that idea of the outside influences, right? Good men in your life, right? So, so often that's a pivotal experience for, for young blokes, certainly in my case, right? Some of the external men say, you know, I would describe them as saving me, right? Is that, you know, what was missing at home that these guys added to? Or, you know, maybe not missing, but, you know, what, what was it, you know, like, what was—
John Milham (Host) · 06:05
um, I don't know if it was necessarily missing as much as, um, look, my dad worked really hard, so he worked 7 days a week and was very committed to providing for the family. So his way of showing Yeah, his love and affection was to work really hard. And, and so, um, uh, I was very fortunate to grow up. So my dad's best mate lived next door to him when they were growing up, and they did everything together. And my dad went on a date with my mum, and my mum had a sister, like a year younger. And so on my dad's first date, this is how I remember it, they took— my dad took my uncle to the date and said, hey, can he hang out with your sister? Anyway, they got married. So two best friends married two sisters who were best friends. And, um, then they were super close. And so they bought a house and land together, built this massive house. And I lived, we lived, our family lived on one side and my auntie and uncle lived on the other. We had this big games room in the middle and, um, I don't know any different. So it was like a, like a live-in, uh, my auntie and uncle were amazing. I'm still very close to them now. And, um, I had two kids, and, and so it was a, uh, um, there was always people around. And so there was my auntie and uncle, and then there was their friends. And so it was a very sociable, um, atmosphere. So there was a lot of, um, men that would come into the house that were quite strong. And, um, so there was— it was, it was almost like they— that was their obligation, necessarily. And I don't say that they were doing it as an obligation. No, no, no. But that's what it—
Scott Baker (Guest) · 07:41
you know, how are perceived it. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 07:45
Yeah. And then when these people who were outside of that framework, it was almost like my influence was having the, like, I felt like it was me that was being influenced and they were influencing me as opposed to the others who may have done it for, for, for all the right reasons, but just wasn't as, um, I see, I suspect it was probably just a validation of an external role model. It's like, oh, if I can make it here, then I can make it in those, those areas as well.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 08:13
Really, it's such an interesting framework to look at now as you look back, which is again, also interesting that you're sort of reviewing it. When you look back, you mentioned almost apologizing to your, to little Scott, right? Was that about, you know, the dreams that he had and the, you know, the, the vision? Were you apologizing for not executing that? Like for, of those dreams not coming true?
John Milham (Host) · 08:41
Um, I think it was more— you're getting onto some good points pretty quick here. Uh, or when I say good, I don't— I mean, um, impactful. I would say, um, they were— there was a part of me that felt like, um, an element of like maybe letting him down, or, um, that I wanted some of his naivety of dreams that will be okay, and that just because life had dealt certain hands, that, that didn't mean you are the outcome. Like, um, it's, it's just because things haven't turned out the way you anticipated them to be doesn't mean you're, uh, maybe a lesser person than you thought you would if you'd achieve them. Um, and so, um, Yeah, but it's a, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a great question, which I suspect you probably maybe ask people, but I've literally been going to working through that just in the last few weeks.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 09:42
So, um, there's a, there's a, a protocol, um, called Internal Family Systems, IFS, which, uh, you know, sort of involves talking to our, our parts, right? Our younger, you know, our younger selves, the voice and so on. And, um, and just reminding them, welcoming them back into an integrated whole because the role they play or the, you know, the voices they offer were about getting through what you all have already survived, right?
John Milham (Host) · 10:13
So yeah, it's actually a very good way to describe it. And I think the value for me too was to go back and say, and to be very grateful, for doing what? Because there was, there was a time when I was quite young that, um, there was a major tragedy in the home. And at the time I thought I had been the contributor of the tragedy. And then, then when it was found, then when I found out years later that, um, not only was I not the contributor of the tragedy, I was only a participant in an, in a, in a circumstance that was beyond the 4-year-old's comprehension. So, um, it certainly helped go, okay, well, I wasn't the response. Like, my mum had, um, lost a child at hospital, and she'd come home from hospital, and I recall opening the gate. We'd had— she'd bred some dogs, and we'd had this big litter, and that the last one had been sold, and we only had the mother. And when she came home from hospital, I was so excited. I hadn't seen her for a while, didn't know why. Opened up the gate, the dog ran out, got killed by a car as she was getting out of a car coming from the hospital. And she was a, a massive dog lover. Not that, but, but then I, when she grieved for, I can't remember, it seemed like a really long time. I thought it was from losing the pet and it was, and that I'd let the dog out. I found out later that was my uncle. I just happened to be there at the, at the, at the moment of, um, all the taking place.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 11:45
So yeah, my goodness, that's a complex way to carry a lot of weight as a young, young person, isn't it? Right, isn't it?
John Milham (Host) · 11:53
Especially the, the relief when I was doing the— and that part that— and when I— when it was brought to my attention that I wasn't, or the little fella wasn't responsible, like there was times when I would be distressed and fall back into that spot behind the chair, like as an adult and figure it out. And I haven't been back there since, since I kind of resolved that. So there was obviously some things there that needed to be—
Scott Baker (Guest) · 12:17
Yeah, tremendous, uh, you know, that sense of reflection and to open up something so, you know, that you'd endured for so long and probably, you know, had a pretty significant impact on things, right?
John Milham (Host) · 12:30
And then, mm, yeah. Well, especially I, one thing was when my pets would pass away, the grief seemed to be, uh, more extreme maybe than maybe some others. And, and I would always get so— like, when someone else's pet would pass, I would be— I would try to be very comforting for them because I had experienced what I thought was extreme trauma from losing, um, a pet, which I think it's been very helpful in dealing with other traumas, other deaths when, um, going through and, uh, that type of stuff. I definitely know it has, um, because it's, um, yeah, it's been a part of stuff.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 13:16
So it's amazing where, you know, we're always weaving events and activities. So of course, you know, say trauma and the impact that can have around your relationships or the way you engage with the world in certain circumstances. There can also be positive ripples, right? So, you know, you had no lack of achievement as a young person and a sort of, you know, so you, you know, maybe your dream at one point was changed, but, you know, like, you know, just so you were a world champion fisherman, right? So like, that's that not everyone can say that.
John Milham (Host) · 13:46
Tell us about that.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 13:48
How on earth do you get from, you know, that kind of childhood to like, you know, well, interesting.
John Milham (Host) · 13:54
They're kind of related in a little way. My grandparents used to fish, uh, 6 days out of 7. They live it up at a place called Raymond Island, and they used to fish for bream. And, um, I just love going up there on the holidays. So I was just— I just loved fishing. And then I remember seeing a video, no, uh, it was something on Channel 9 about this fishing tournament show, and I went, oh, I want to do that one day. So I went to the tackle shop, and then I bought the book that went with it, and they said, have you ever caught a bream on a lure? And I went, 'Nah, it can't be that hard. Like, I've caught them on bait.' And, um, so from that point on, I just went, 'Well, I'm just going to go on this. I'm going to get on this show,' type thing. That was, that was the start of it. And then interestingly, 10 years later, I'd won a world title in kayak fishing, and because I was the world title, I got to go on that exact show on the 10th anniversary. So, um, that was pretty cool. And it wasn't Um, to any of my mates that are listening, I, I, I won the world title, not certainly not because I was the best fisherman in the, in the hundred and so there was, uh, we had two competitions running at once, but we had people from around the world fishing in this tournament and I was kind of the last Australian picked. And, um, uh, but they had this briefing on for the tournament and they said, come down here and we'll get all the locals to tell you where to fish and what to do. And I went, well, I can't win it. I'll just turn up, I'll listen to what they have to say, and I'll just listen to them verbatim. I won't, I won't even question it because sometimes we can kind of— what I know I get caught up in— well, I think, yeah, that's the expert, I think I know better, I'm going to do it my way. Well, I just went, I can't win and I'm not going to win, so I'm just going to do it exactly how they say it. To the point of, they were doing things I would never have done, which was using lures in a particular way to— and as soon as I started doing it, I just started catching all these fish and lots of them. And I went, hey, this is pretty cool. And, um, and then at the end of it, I ended up winning by, say, 60 grams over the 3 days. And so, um, yeah, it was— I believe it was— I was good enough to be there, but I was fortunate enough to listen to the advice of the experts. But there's— there were some far greater anglers on the day.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 16:08
What a great— what a great lesson, is not just a great story, right? You know, that, you know, rate ourselves, congratulate ourselves on being great when so often the fact is that it's, uh, you know, it's been the work of many to get you there, right? Or to, you know, to tip you over the edge.
John Milham (Host) · 16:26
Yeah. And I had, look, I had a really good mate, um, who, um, Jason, um, Jason Meach, who was, him and I fished a lot together and he was like extraordinarily good at fishing. And on one of the days, um, we just had one of the greatest fishing days of our lives. It was the first day of the tournament actually. And technically, like, he was, he was a 5-grader fisher. He came second by 60 grand. So I was, I was so delighted. One, to be like, we fished together for years, probably 7 years, I suppose. And I think we're on the podium together maybe once or twice. So to be first and second, and then another really good mate to be third. It was the first time that ever happened. And then because of that, each tournament from that point on for the next few years, I got like a golden ticket. And so I got to travel around China. I got to China twice, and then we went to America and, and the Netherlands and, uh, Amsterdam. And, um, and that was— they were extraordinary opportunities that— and there was $70,000 US prize money up for grabs when we went to China, which Seems quite weird for, uh, like a kayak tournament to have so much on the line. And I did an interview and apparently there's 120 million people watching in Chinese. So there's, it's a big, big, big audience over there.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 17:46
But you just go viral just being interviewed. It's amazing.
John Milham (Host) · 17:51
And it was kind of funny. It was when, when I was on that, I was watching, they were interviewing a heap of people and everyone was just talking normally. And I was about 20th in the line and I went, oh, I'm going to do something just a little bit left of center and just because they're doing this to get it online. Like they want people to watch it. And if people are talking in another language, which they had to translate anyway. So I did a bit of a Steve Irwin and the producer jumped up out of his huddle and lost his mind at what I was doing. He was so excited. And then it kind of, then the cameras were kind of turned on me a little bit more, which I was playing, playing the part for. We were just giggling so hard about beforehand that what was going to happen. And it, it was, uh, it was, it was, and then to see yourself dubbed in Chinese was, was a highlight actually.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 18:52
Fishing is the number one participatory activity in the world. People are passionate. I've noticed, like, I'm not particularly engaged with that myself, but people, like, they devote their lives to it, right? So having that label, how did, like, did, what was that experience like where you are, you know, in a, in such a passionate sort of subpopulation of the world, but it's massive, right? Was that like a, uh, celebrity experience? What, what did you learn from that?
John Milham (Host) · 19:30
No, it wasn't a celebrity experience, although it felt like it, in that I remember after I'd won, um, I was really proud of myself. Like, just like, because I love my mates that I fish with, they're like really incredible guys. So to be considered the winner of that amongst my mates, it was like an embedded reason that was like, like, they'll hang shit on me as they should all the time about it. Um, but it was kind of that, um, it was like I was embedded into the, into it. And a lot of people don't take it seriously, but within the fishing fraternity, I would say um, there would be very rarely anyone outside my small group that would even know that I had, had won it. Um, and then maybe a little bit when I was on the TV, I had a couple of people say it the week that it was on, and they were— they didn't know me, but they went, hey, were you on? And, um, and that was the closest that ever became.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 20:31
Fishing is a particular— like, they often talk about it as having an element of art. Did you know, what was it? How would you— why is fishing so, um, so interesting to you? And, and what, what did you, you know, what did it give you, right, being a good fisherman?
John Milham (Host) · 20:50
Um, yeah, look, I think I hear different people talk about it, and I've heard probably the closest person I've heard talk about it, but I haven't done the next, like I heard Joe Rogan talk about hunting, and I don't do hunting, um, the way he does it, and I haven't done it for a long time, but when I was younger I used to. And he talks about bow hunting, and he talks about how much he loves fishing, but it doesn't compare. There's something in outwitting a live animal. I'm a, I'm very the advocate of catch and release, so probably 95% of the fish I— well, I'd say 99% of the fish I catch, I let go. Um, unless I'm wanting to have a feed on the weekend. I went out and got some flathead and stuff, but we caught a fair bit of fish, but we let go nearly all of them. Um, I think it's the excitement of out maneuvering something that's alive, then using very light line to, to catch them and get them in, and then to let them go and let them swim off. Um, I don't know, it's just Uh, I was talking to my partner about it as we were pulling up to the boat ramp, how excited I still get, and I'm 51, and that just anticipation is, I don't know, it's a, it's, it's a hard, it's a hard thing to describe. I don't, I'm not 100% sure, but I just, I do enjoy that excitement of getting a bite and winding it in is exhilarating.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 22:17
Would you, um, and we like, we develop coping strategies, like we successfully navigate every bad day we've ever had. So, you know, because we're here, um, and, you know, some of those things that were, you know, that you were carrying from childhood, was fishing a therapy as well as a pastime?
John Milham (Host) · 22:37
Yeah, I would definitely say so. I would say that, um, it was a double-edged sword in a way. One is you kind of might go out and you're fishing, you're like, I should be working.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 22:52
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 22:53
And then, and then it's like, well, or I should be spending time with family or bits and pieces. So once you can kind of, or you're thinking about work and you're like, well, I'm out here fishing, should I be thinking about work? So, um, I'm no longer married, but well, while I was married, I used to do a lot of tournaments and, um, I didn't find out till later that my, my ex-wife had said that she, she was quite resentful about me, me doing it. And I didn't realize, and because I'd worked from home and, um, I did a lot of managing the kids and cooking dinner and I was home a lot of the time, which was probably not a good thing either, but my business was able that I was from home, took the kids to school, picked them up as best I could. And so when I would go away, I might be away for 3 or 4 days, uh, every several, 8 weeks or something, let's just say like that. But Um, I was home way more than if I'd had a, like, I had a full-time job and had really good business and stuff like that. But I was, I felt like I was there so often, it felt like it almost needed to be away a little bit. But I, I, looking back on it, I, um, I think it was an escape to not face probably certain things that I, that I might have needed to address. So I think it was a bit of a like a double-edged sword. It was— I loved getting away with the boys, like, it was— felt like it was so, um, amazing that, uh, yeah, I couldn't, couldn't. And the fact that we had comps, it was kind of like an organized boys weekend, so that you go, hey, if you can make it, it's going to be on here, and we're going to do— and they were done all around Australia, so, um, it was— and you would travel often a day in the car and with mates. And, and so yeah, it was good.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 24:44
So it was a huge investment in your life, you know, that you made into this activity. But, um, like you mentioned, the, you know, organized boys camp and so on. And, you know, Joe Rogan talks about, you know, hunting and fishing all the time, and they, you know, he gets other blokes on and they swap stories about— and there's this sense of masculinity that's around it. Um, and yet, like you just said, there's a, it's almost like a two-edged approach that, you know, it's healthy and it's real, but, you know, allowing it to dictate who you are and, you know, where, where you are, you know, almost doesn't serve that as well, right? You, you have to be more rounded. So how, how did you feel like it was about being a bloke, right? Yeah. Did you?
John Milham (Host) · 25:33
No, it's, it's a really good question. I had some, um, the guys that I would go with, I felt like there was elements of them of being like my soccer coach and, and my principal. Um, and like when I was going through the breakup of my, of my marriage, um, those guys were like the bond, like they were, they were there, like, um And some of them were better equipped at supporting me in the way I needed to be supported than, than at the certain times. There were certain times I needed a certain personality to help me and, or when I say help me, probably support me. And then there was others that I needed as I was kind of maybe becoming less distressed and as I moved through different parts, there was more of a fun element, more of a structure element and I feel like there was a really good, good bunch of those that I could, I could be myself amongst them and be okay with it. And then there'd be others I could pretend everything, I could, I could pretend to be someone else as well if I needed to kind of just break from the, um, thing. So yeah, it was, it's a fascinating insight.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 26:46
So that in that, you know, that sort of dichotomy, right, you have like men you know, the connection is good and the validation is good and the acceptance is good. The tribe side of things seems to be really good and offering, and being out in nature and active is good. But there's a lack of— like in that conversation you hear on Rogan and that masculinity, the hunting thing and so on, there's also a lot of avoidance and a lot of posturing and competition and, you know, aggression, right? Which which is kind of a barrier to that genuine emotional connection. So, you know, did you like, it's why, you know, six of one and half a dozen of the other.
John Milham (Host) · 27:28
Yeah, it's interesting. I would say there's a couple of mates that, you know how when you can go through trauma with someone, it could damage the relationship in one way because there's a lot of trauma associated to it. Um, there was, there's a couple of mates that during the darkest of times, um, I think actually, yeah, one of them, um, was going through something quite similar. And so as he was going through his trauma and I was going through mine, they were maybe 8 weeks apart. We were kind of growing together at the same time. And I think the forged relationship we have is we became, we were different people. We became new people. Together. Not together, but we kind of grew. And so that, that strength that we have, that bond that we have, is, is extraordinary in comparison to others who for every reason had to protect their own, um, uh, self from— like, there's one thing to help a mate, but you don't want that bringing down your life or bringing down— and none of these guys were anything like that, but What I'm saying is someone else who's suffering can then kind of, kind of support you in a way that they need supported because they're in a similar thing. But when you go through those things though, a lot of friendships kind of do fracture a little too because you used to be a partnership with your wife and, and then you get invited to less things and then you're, it's, it's, it's a, it just fractures lots of things that, um, that just have to be managed.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 29:05
Yeah. So, you know, the breaking down of, you know, how long we, do you mind if I ask how long you were married?
John Milham (Host) · 29:12
And, you know, like you had, yeah, we were married, uh, from '99 until 2017. So 18 years. So it would have been our 25th wedding anniversary last November. Like we do really good co-parenting. I know that's not a, not necessarily always the case, but Um, uh, yeah, we do. We get along. We get along really good, way better than we probably ever did when we were together. Um, but we're so like, probably like good cousins or, or like, uh, yeah, we get along really well, like family members, but not like partners that we ever used to be.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 29:53
Where do you think, like, a lot of um, you know, relationships. Men are struggling with relationships and making them work and then surviving them when they break up. What did you learn out of that whole process that helped you?
John Milham (Host) · 30:10
Ah, I think I'm still learning. Um, kind of, I don't like confrontation, like in a, in a negative way. And I had, in my mind's eye, imagined I actually didn't think we'd ever split up. Like, I thought there was times when we could, but I wasn't thinking it was going to happen. But I always looked at other people who were quite harsh and went, if that's the mother of my kids, then I've chosen her for one reason. At one point I did like her, even, or whoever it was. And even what, there was a point in time, like, so that was the thing. Uh, so I was like, well, I want my kids if something was to happen, I'd want to get along with my ex. As it was kind of like, I'm not saying I went into a lot of depth on it, but I had prepared myself for the possibility of what if something happened. Mind you, had I known what was going to happen, I wouldn't have been able to prepare myself for what was like, it was quite very challenging to manage. But, um, But one of my close mates, my fishing mate, he says to me, you need to find the North Facing Star. That's it. And you focus on that. And that's for the kids. And I felt like that I was bobbling at sea without even an esky and I was about to drown. It felt like, cause I was just so overwhelmed and I felt like he came, he couldn't rescue me, but he gave me something to hang on to, like to go, okay, I've got this.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 31:36
An anchor, a bit of a float. Yeah. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 31:38
Yeah. And then I started, it was a bit of a challenge because I wanted to be supportive of, I don't want to go into the details, but I want to be supportive of my ex during something she was going through that was also really traumatic for me, but it was for her. I wanted to support the kids as well. And, um, and so, but I did, I put myself last. So here I was like making sure everyone else is okay. And then I was the. Wasn't giving myself the, uh, because upon— yeah, it was, there was pretty much no self-care there. And then there were some people who were very kind to me and I couldn't accept it because I was still, um, probably— well, I'm still just dealing with the grief of what had taken place.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 32:25
Wow. So didn't become a doctor. But how did you get, you know, get near, and now you are, you know, self-employed, you know, you've got a business that you, that takes people into the new world of AI, right? And, um, and helps them build their business using some of these tools. And of course, at the moment, there, you know, there's a lot of noise around AI, a lot of fear, a lot of, you know, potential social upheaval, but also maybe potential opportunity. First of all, how did you end up, you know, walking into a technology world?
John Milham (Host) · 33:08
Right.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 33:09
What was that?
John Milham (Host) · 33:11
Well, for a while I had been working in, um, like the review space, helping people with their Google reviews and, and video testimonials. And I'd helped some big brands, um, get some good video testimonials and things like that. And One of the tools I used was using AI and it was converting the video to text and audio to text. And when OpenAI came out, I'd had this kind of vision that what if instead of the 200 video testimonials that came in, instead of having to watch all of them for 5 minutes, what if we could identify who the person was and kind of break it down really powerfully as to were they moving towards their goals, away from their goals, uh, just identifying their kind of personality type and, um, like on the Enneagram and the, and the DiSC profile. And then what language did they use? What language didn't they use? Could we identify what country they were from based on their, the words they used and that? And so I had, I was using OpenAI as playing around and I would run everything through and then I would, I thought, I wonder if we can do that. And within a really short period of time, so this was a couple of years ago now, uh, I was able to identify like what, what state in America they were from based on, um, the language they used. And then there was all these other elements, whether they were male or female, and these were all helpful for the person who was then going to call them back to support them with something. It seems like really basic stuff now, but when I was showing people at the time, they're like, it looked like I was a wizard making it up because it was doing it instantaneously rather than having to watch the 5 minutes of it. And then it was from that that I thought, oh, I realized I'm on the spectrum and I have always struggled to write an email. Like it might take me 2 hours to write a basic email. And then when I started using AI, I was like, oh, I can do this in like 20 seconds. Wow. It helped me. And then I was like, well, what if I could do the stuff that I was doing with these testimonials and maybe do that in other ways? So then I was, I created a tool that does that instantly so that, um, it kind of, uh, the quickest and easiest way. Again, that was developed 2 years ago and now it seems like, um, if you, anyone listening about AI, it won't seem like that big of a deal, but It's kind of like taking you answering questions about who you are and then it being your, like, if anyone knows anything about AI, it's like creating a personalized chatbot, but you don't have to do anything to do it. It does it automatically for you. So this 2 years ago was considered like, most people didn't even think it was, well, they didn't understand it. So only because they didn't understand it because it just didn't make sense. How could you talk into one thing and then it come out and it sounds like you and the other way, which, but now that's what AI does quite comfortably.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 36:08
So like, was that rewarding? Right. So, you know, like you, you, you mentioned apologizing to young Scott for maybe his dream of being a doctor and other things, right. And you not fulfilling, but are you able now to like, cause like it sounded like you offered other dreams, right. And achieved other things. Are you like, is this something that feeds you? Is this a good thing, your career and direction?
John Milham (Host) · 36:34
Look, I'm, I, it's a really good question. I don't know the full answer other than I feel like it's a work in progress of acceptance of myself. So, um, there's, uh, certainly what AI has been very beneficial for me is I have I'm very curious about lots of things, which, and that can get me in a lot of trouble because I'll ask questions that people, one, don't want to answer, or two, I'll see the linkage between something, um, or, uh, again, sometimes just like, and I'm not making excuses, but being on the spectrum, sometimes I'm seeking, I'm seeking clarification for coherence, cohesiveness, but people may think I'm trying to catch them out when I'm actually just wanting to double-check this doesn't make sense to me. And knowing that that happens now, I'm less likely to be, um, asking as many questions because I realize I don't have to tick all the boxes for it to make sense. It just doesn't have to always make sense. But, um, it, it's, it, what you're saying is quite weird because I feel like AI helped me heal. Significantly because I could ask it a million questions and I would, I would get the answer. And then if I wanted to learn something, it would teach me because I was so curious. So I was learning how to do coding and like, I didn't even know what JSON code was or Python code. And then I'm getting it to write all this code and then I'm getting it to do all these things. And I'm just giggling like I'd kind of found the matrix and was capable of lots of things. And then so The challenge with that though was, is that then led me to, uh, like lots of, um, deep dives on certain things that were really, um, traumatic. As in, I was exploring some healing of mine that I would never have asked a human because I would have been, I just couldn't have had, I wouldn't have had the courage to do it. But to ask AI in a particular way and then go, hey, tell me tell me how I would feel if this, this, this, and this happened. And then for it to reflect back to me, well, you may think this and you may think that. And I'm like, oh, well, why could I feel like this? And why would I feel like that? And it's like, oh, well, because this, this, and this happened. And then I was like, wow. So can you help me heal that? And it's like, yeah, this is how we go through it. And so, um, I did it with a few other people too, and watching them, I would act as the AI question person. They'd say something and I'd go, okay, and then I'd look, I'd read it and go, oh, that's not it. And then They'd start bawling their eyes out and I go, okay, I know nothing. Yeah. I know nothing. And when that happened multiple times and I could, and the joy in their voice of, this is what often people say, I felt, felt heard and seen for the first time. I felt like, um, everything I've gone through has now been for a reason and I can, like all these really wonderful things that seemed fairly basic or logical maybe. But the reason I'm not judging is because I was, um, I was part of, I was part of that kind of process I put myself through.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 39:50
Wow. I've always been fascinated by the idea of, um, why people are capable of becoming like kids are capable of being attached and finding safety in things like teddy bears. Right. And yet, so we, we know almost that person to person connection is irreplaceable, but is it, um, uh, you know, are there forms of, can we go and have, and can AI be, you know, be a teddy bear for us in many things, right? Uh, that are, you know, that's acceptable. Like, you know, is it a disaster that AI takes on some of the human roles?
John Milham (Host) · 40:37
Look, I would say there's like anything like with matches. Matches are good for lighting a fire to keep you warm and cook your food, but they can also burn your house down if out of context. Um, and I personally, I've had, I haven't had AI burn. There's been certain times it said things I didn't want to hear or didn't want to see. And I, but, but, uh, but it was well worth what it said that I needed to hear. Um, so there was some singes, like getting my hand too close to the flame, but, but, but technically it was, I could only smell the hair burning and there was no, you know what I mean? Uh, I, I really feel, or just from my own experience and a few other people, if done the right way, um, and depend— like, mental health is a challenging component. There's so many factors that need to be taken into account, uh, but with the right parameters, I, I think the teddy bear component, or even like, um, I'm sure you're familiar with the voice-activated, um, AI, uh, like I don't, sometimes I might say something like, hey, I'm having a, I'm having a shit day. Can you just give me a perk me up? And it, it'll say something. Often it'll be just like, and I'll be like, no, no, you know what I need to hear. Don't say what sounds good. Say what I really need to hear. And it'll say something. And I'm like, it was kind of not a love letter that I would like to write myself, but it was not far off it. Um, and there's, and this kind of comes back to an exercise from years ago. Someone said is like, write yourself a love letter. Because realistically no one's ever going to write you the love letter that you want because they don't get to know you. But I felt like AI was as close to writing as good enough love letter for me with the info I'd given it than anyone I'd ever met. So I would say, um, with the advances with what's happening, uh, I, I would say it could be incredibly helpful for people people under different mental health challenges and supporting them. I have heard from anecdotally, like other evidence from even people buying and selling things, they're much more inclined to tell the AI salesperson more info than they are another person, and even more accurate information as well.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 43:08
It's an amazing insight. And like, I love what you've offered. Given that the complexity of the world is increasing the ambiguity, VUCA, the complexity, the ambiguity, the lack of connection, a lot of the lifting in the future, the systems are overloaded, right? Responding to the needs of the community. Community. A lot of the lifting might have to be done by some form of automation or connection. And, um, yeah, but, but I worry, you know, there's a lot of intrinsic fear about that, right? And you're like, so how, you know, like, is it, do you think it's possible to build safe AI for, to take on some of those roles?
John Milham (Host) · 44:02
Look, I was talking to someone in a very, in, in a, uh, I think someone we both know that runs a very big, I'll just say it's a, uh, a well-known brand name that people call on a regular basis. And we were talking about it. Um, I think to start with, most people, uh, are going to be kind of pushing back against it. And I think there needs to be a lot of human, um, mechanisms in place to, um, because there is undoubtedly, no matter what happens, someone will slip through and it'll, it'll come back that it was an AI error or something like that. And I, I, and just thinking out loud, part of it is, is like, let's say for instance there was 100 people waiting on a, on a helpline, and because they didn't get help because there was nobody to talk to, um, they missed out. But But if all of them were listened to and, and there was, um, an error rate quite small, I think, I think there will be one day something that would be kind of like your own virtual assistant on the phone that will pick, I would, I'd say it exists. It'll know you so well that if you are, say, let's say for instance, you're on, I'll talk about myself, you're on the spectrum and it'll go, hey, it seems like your energy level is a little bit low. Um, and my mates and I, when often guys don't want to tell you— this is kind of related, but often guys won't tell you when they're having a tough time. No. Or they might— like, I had a mate keep saying, hey, we should catch up for coffee. Do you want to catch up for coffee? And I'm like, yeah, I can. When do you want to catch up? And he goes, oh, it seems like you want to catch up for coffee. And I'm like, no, I'm okay. Yeah. And then I realized afterwards he was desperate to catch up.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 45:52
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he could— very difficult admitting that he, he needed to chat to someone. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 45:59
And then when he did, he was like almost crying with joy. And I was like, gosh, God, how could that? It was like I was missing, was almost, but this is kind of what I would say to one of my mates or maybe a couple is if I, I don't like drinking beer, but if I said, if I, let's have a beer, that was like code word for, I really want you to not ask me any questions. I'm in a bad space. Can we have a chat type thing? Even just putting that in place was really felt like, okay, cool. I've got someone now I can have that.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 46:31
Those data points that, that AI can capture, right? You know, and can inform people because sometimes we're just not paying attention.
John Milham (Host) · 46:41
That's, and that's what I was going to say when it came back to the AI, it's like, it might say, hey, are you wanting, is it one of those I want a beer moments? Is it like, and I'll talk again about myself. Sometimes when you're, um, you're wanting support or whatever, you don't want to ask for help. You don't have to explain yourself, or there might be all these different elements that come into play. And it sounds like I might be like, what I'm, what I'm trying to say is that if I, I believe AI will be able to pick up on those things. And instead of you maybe going spiraling. And I'll say, okay, talk about myself instead of say going, thinking of things and then going, it'll go, hey, do you know this is, don't forget this and don't forget that. And, um, again, um, and I also believe it'll be incredibly valuable for going to next levels of like, um, self-awareness and self-consciousness and even awakening and spirituality and all those types of things. I think there's a, um, a lot of, a lot of things that you can ask that if you, uh, you can explore those types of knowledge things without having to, um, sign up to be a part of a group or anything like that. You could just—
Scott Baker (Guest) · 47:58
it's interesting because, you know, AI, like, as a series of data points, like, you know, essentially we're broken down into those, you know, ones and zeros, right? But in there, can AI help us find our soul as well as our awareness?
John Milham (Host) · 48:18
Well, I think with the right questions and one of the first questions I think I ever asked AI was something along those lines. It was something really, and it came back with something like, no, that doesn't exist, this, this, and this. And I was like, I'm never using AI again. It was almost like, and then I went, well, maybe I'll ask it a different way. And I realized that whoever makes the AI makes the rules and lets you talk about things that they do or don't believe in or whatever. Um, but the experience I had was, okay, so this, this, this, and this happened in my life and this, this, and this happened in my life. Describe to me, uh, my parents, what, what my parents would have been. And when it described them to so precisely, I just went, oh, I'm a commodity of certain events that have taken place. And then I was like, all right, let's, let's dial it in and say, tell me the type of person I would have married. Almost like it was. And I said, tell me what the parents of the person I'd married, what their job, their jobs would be. And it said engineer and in the health service, and it was an engineer and a nurse. So it was wrong. It then just, it then described, I said describe their relationship. It described it in such a way that when I told my ex-wife, she was like, she was stunned because of how accurate it was. And, and then I was like, wow, look at what it actually, it was as if it was writing our biology of our family, but it was basing it on our, um, personalities or our emotions and our series of points that it knew.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 49:55
It valued and rated and prioritized in a, in an algorithm, right? Correct.
John Milham (Host) · 50:00
Yeah, absolutely.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 50:01
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 50:01
And, and it was so accurate about my upbringing, and it was so accurate about my, uh, I found out things about my upbringing that I didn't know existed until AI told me, and then I asked my auntie and uncle and they told me it was true. They confirmed it.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 50:18
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 50:19
Which is Crazy.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 50:21
Well, what we're talking here is magic, right? Right. And I love that because so often, uh, technology, you know, like there's the great famous quote, you know, technology to a, you know, to a middle-aged person, you know, is indecipherable from magic, right? And in some ways, like I'm listening to that and it's magic, right? So are you a wizard? Is that how you manage to introduce and to promote and sort of develop the business, the commercial and the community aspect of AI? Because you list yourself as an alchemist, which is like, you know, basically sort of, you know, some form of wizardry, is that?
John Milham (Host) · 51:05
Look, I'm a huge fan of alchemy, as you know. I have loved reading about it and the whole process of and I can't remember off the top of my head the way they used to do it in, in the day, but it's all alchemy's, uh, also a process, also kind of like, um, with ideas and things. And it's going to that innocence that we can be in and, and tapping into that, the potential of, of what's going on. And then the pressure that we feel is the pressure for the— like, that's what helps us get from one space to the other. It's like the wind in the sails type of thing. And, um, It's interesting you say, like, I, I'm trying to reflect back on the, the wizard part in that, uh, I, I, I think it's, it's more, um, I've seen the world very differently for a long time and I, I felt like AI normalized life for me in a way that I hadn't been able to articulated. And I, and I— learning, if I loved it and it was drawing and it was things that I could, I could understand, that was amazing. Um, but even though I didn't understand it, I would have to try and— like, I would— I, I didn't realize that I couldn't read, that I had like dyslexia. And so I would read a whole page, couldn't remember it, read a whole page, couldn't remember it. So then what I would do is I would interview all the kids that had read the book and I'd write down all the notes on what they thought of each character and then I would write my own review, but it was based on my interview of the other people. But because then they failed me with English because they said, oh, you were cheating because you didn't read. And it was heartbreaking because I, I didn't tell anyone that I couldn't remember what I was doing. Um, so, uh, that frustration led to trying to figure out problems that, um, like, and I found out recently I'm really good at reverse engineering, which upsets a lot of people because I'm talking about it from the end backwards and most people talk from the other way. Um, and when I say upsets a lot of people, it, when I'm trying to get my point across, I'm, um, I'm bringing it down the opposite way and I've realized that can have an impact on, um, help people understanding what I'm saying. And I used to think I was not smart as opposed to just doing it a different way. So AI has helped me come to terms with I'm probably smarter than I'd give myself credit for, but, um, only because I do things differently.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 53:36
Um, well, neurodivergence is, uh, you know, uh, you know, the intelligence in, in non-standard areas. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 53:44
But when there's, there's a kind of, uh, if the majority of your life and the majority of the people you interact with and you're trying to share ideas with think non-neurotypical.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 53:57
Yeah. Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 53:58
And you don't have the self, uh, validation that I don't— I didn't have, then you start questioning your own. Like, I'm not putting this on anybody else. Uh, it was my inability to see the value in what I was doing as being valuable. And so therefore I wouldn't push my, uh, yeah, I wasn't strong enough in my own, essence to kind of put my ideas out as strong and as good as they were. They weren't, um, and I couldn't articulate them in a way that people would understand them, but, but, uh, you live and learn.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 54:33
It's, it's interesting you, you talk about, and we know like research, you know, tells us that the neurodiverse child will have heard negative feedback or instances of negative feedback. So 10,000 more statements of negative feedback than a neurotypical child by the age of 10. So for every year of their life, they've heard 1,000 more, on average, 1,000 more times where they've been negatively, you know, fed back on or criticized.
John Milham (Host) · 55:09
Yeah, which is interesting because, uh, I loved learning. When I had a teacher that understood my love of learning, I blossomed. When they didn't, I failed. Like I went from say straight A pluses to failure, which isn't necessarily an accurate assessment of the skill set. I know I bothered people and I know my my, like, I got sacked from one job because I was told I was too enthusiastic. And I know that the enthusiasm can sometimes come across as being, um, annoying. Um, but that was not— sometimes it was me not being able to read the room. And it's like, well, actually, I lost two jobs for being too enthusiastic. I used to run to lunch breaks on a particular job, and they said the union, if they see you, you're out, and we have to— can't risk it, so you've got to go. And I'm like, I run into my break, like, I want to get the job done. And they're like, no, you need to walk. Because it was a wake-up call. And it was— I'm sure there was other reasons too, but, uh, certainly primary school, I was always asking for extra projects. Like, I was like wanting to always do more projects. It's like, yeah, I've done that, what else can I do? Um, I never saw that as being smart, and it necessarily wasn't that smart. It was just I just had I always wanted to do extra projects on Phar Lap and, um, Kingsford Smith. So I was just fascinated with those two entities.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 56:40
And, um, so yeah, I'm sure AI would have an amazing conclusion to draw from your interest in those two, to those particular icons, right?
John Milham (Host) · 56:50
So, well, it's funny, it's funny because it's from those struggles I'm helping my kids now. Like at the moment, uh, one of my sons is just he's gone into year 12 and last year he was struggling studying law and biology and he, let's, I don't know if he's on the spectrum or not, he might be if maybe, but he's, he's pretty much straight A student, but he's fascinated with just following the law and rules and doing the right way and getting really good marks and he wants to understand it as well as learn it. And he wasn't understanding the law component. So I just said, what's your favorite game? And he told me, I say it was SimCity. I said, pretend all the characters are in SimCity, match all of the people within the Australian legal system so that he can have a correlation between the two. And within about 15 minutes, he goes, I completely understand that. And he went off to school and got one of the best marks he got for the year. But it was that help of the correlation between the two. And then he was doing biology on stuff I knew nothing about. And I said, hey, can you match it to helping him understand, uh, with, um, what's it called, um, Fortnite. Anyhow, as it did, it was teaching him how to build, how the chemicals build, and that's how they're related to this thing in Fortnite. And he goes, oh yeah, now I— and so he then, he didn't, he didn't blitz it in biology, but it was the, the, the blocks to, to assist, uh, when he solved all the problems, it was so amazing. It was like, took my idea and put it on a whole new scale.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 58:27
I, I, um, it's so like, I feel like we could go on for hours.
John Milham (Host) · 58:32
There's so much.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 58:33
When I speak to you, I am so encouraged and inspired. I'm actually excited about something that I'm often worried about in a different way, right? So, uh, for that, um, you are a wizard. Right. You've, uh, you've, you've performed some magic transformation on me, which has given me quite a lot. I'm quite excited about the prospects of working with AI and finding a way, particularly, uh, say neurodivergence, the sense of being supported and the possibilities around building something that is an adjunct, an assistance to people, uh, who, uh, you know, who have no support, right? It's a step. In the right direction, right? If we can get them to engage with, with some level of confirmation and, you know, the teddy bear effect or whatever. So I'm very, very grateful, both fascinated by your story and, uh, what you've shared with us today. Also grateful that you're continuing to bring this to the world, mate. So nothing to apologize for, uh, for that, mate. It's an awesome, uh, awesome, uh, uh, you know, prospect you're taking to the world and good luck with it all, mate.
John Milham (Host) · 59:41
Thank you.
Scott Baker (Guest) · 59:42
Thank you. Thank you for sharing today. Thank you for wandering down some tough paths and I really appreciate that, mate. The Kintsugi Heroes listeners will also appreciate it. We're very grateful to have you on. Thanks, Scott.
John Milham (Host) · 59:59
Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and Follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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