Gina McClement
Gina rebuilt her life by unpacking childhood wounds instead of chasing achievement, and now helps others understand that healed pain becomes power.
Hear this story
Gina McClement grew up with undiagnosed ADHD in a high-conflict home where emotional needs went unmet. She learned early that achievement and external validation were the path to safety and worth. That drive carried her into a successful corporate career, marketing director, sports agencies, Commonwealth Games, Qantas, HSBC, but the treadmill never stopped. Every win led to the next target. Every accomplishment felt hollow the moment it landed.
When Gina became a mother, the identity she had built through status and money dissolved overnight. Burnout followed. Years of therapy had helped her manage symptoms, but it was only when she hit complete collapse that the real work began. She had to unpeel the wounds at their root: the gaps in her childhood, the invalidation she had internalized, the dark energy that had powered her climb. Over 25 years of therapy, Gina learned the difference between symptom management and genuine healing. She learned that the fear driving her thoughts and behaviors could be befriended, not fought. She discovered that when she stopped chasing external validation and started living in alignment with her authentic self, everything shifted.
Today, Gina runs her own psychotherapy practice. She works with people with ADHD, neurodiversity, and attachment wounds. The pain and grief she has carried, including the loss of her brother to suicide, have not disappeared, but they have transformed into her greatest source of strength. She now believes that every unhealed wound, once integrated, becomes the gold in the cracks: the source of meaning, connection, and the power to help others find their way home to themselves.
“Every single piece of pain you have in healed form becomes one of your greatest powers in healed form.”
“You cannot be fully connected to yourself if you cannot stand with your fears. When people talk about fear-facing and pushing through it, it's sitting with it. It's sitting with it.”
“She just chose to help me, not for any reason, not because you were related to me. And that's when I really learned the concept of help. There actually are people out there who will choose to help you and decide to help you.”
The hero, today
Gina learned from her psychiatrist and surrogate father that there are people who will choose to help you for no reason other than deciding to, and that choice can redirect your entire life. Children need to be seen, heard, validated, unconditionally loved, and given physical and emotional safety; when these are missing, children internalize the message that something is wrong with them rather than recognizing the failure of the adults around them. For Gina, healing was not possible through therapy alone until she experienced complete burnout and identity collapse, which forced her to do the deep work of unpacking her wounds at their root instead of managing symptoms. Every piece of pain and trauma, when healed and integrated, becomes one of your greatest sources of strength; the dark energy that drove her through achievement was damaging until she learned to transform it into self-love. Gina believes that every person deserves the choice and the opportunity to heal, and that it is a moral violation to rob someone of the chance to find their own truth and believe that change is possible.
Yes. Gina McClement is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Gina learned from her psychiatrist and surrogate father that there are people who will choose to help you for no reason other than deciding to, and that choice can redirect your entire life.
Children need to be seen, heard, validated, unconditionally loved, and given physical and emotional safety; when these are missing, children internalize the message that something is wrong with them rather than recognizing the failure of the adults around them.
For Gina, healing was not possible through therapy alone until she experienced complete burnout and identity collapse, which forced her to do the deep work of unpacking her wounds at their root instead of managing symptoms.
John Milham (Host) · 00:00
Kintsugi Heroes acknowledges funding and was made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at cbf.org.au. Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. This week, John Millum is joined by Gina McClement. Growing up with undiagnosed ADHD, Gina faced personal and emotional challenges in a high-conflict home. It wasn't until her early 40s that Gina received her diagnosis, which helped her better understand her past struggles. Gina had to navigate a demanding career and motherhood, leading to burnout and a deep dive into self-discovery through over 25 years of therapy. As a qualified psychotherapist, Gina's insights on healing, the importance of supportive relationships, and how facing and accepting fears can transform lives is incredibly valuable. Enjoy this one. Gina McClemmon. So listeners, welcome to another episode of Kintsugi Heroes, uh, Stories That Matter. And today we're really in that place because we are very, very lucky, and, uh, I'm very excited to talk to, um, my friend Gina McClemmon. So Gina, uh, you are a, um, a mind health practitioner and trained counselor. You've got, um, qualifications in in psychotherapy and all sorts of wonderful sort of helping professions. You're certified up to your nostrils. Without me going through the long list, I will ask you for the listeners, Gina, tell us who you are, right? And how would you see all of your accomplishments?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 01:54
Yeah. Oh, look, my goal in life is to have a wildly adventurous life. And so, um, um, I definitely feel like I'm fulfilling that, uh, with everything you're doing.
John Milham (Host) · 02:08
You're here with me. That's a, that's another adventure, right? I appreciate the courage you've shown in putting, you know, your reputation in my hands. I'll do my best.
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Every piece of pain and trauma, when healed and integrated, becomes one of your greatest sources of strength; the dark energy that drove her through achievement was damaging until she learned to transform it into self-love.
This conversation includes who gina is today, the gaps in her childhood, what's gone wrong in schools and homes, rock bottom in her early twenties, why therapy alone didn't fix it and how achievement became a trap.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 02:18
Absolutely. But, uh, yeah. Uh, who am I? Um, uh, I'm a, you know, these days, like my statement around that is I'm really comfortable. I'm a person who's really comfortable in their own shoes. You know, and it is on the front of my website. So, you know, but that actually comes from my personal story and that's probably actually the thing that I'm most proud of, you know. Yes, I have a, I have a fair few accolades behind me. Some of them are on the wall, but education was essential in our family. It wasn't a choice. It was a mandatory requirement to not only do it, but to do well. So hence that, that conditioning I'm grateful for actually. Um, but, um, yeah, it didn't start off as a choice, I don't think. But today I run my own private practice, Living in Bloom. Uh, I'm a psychotherapist, a counselor, and a neurodiversity expert. Um, my greatest joy is working with people with ADHD, um, diagnosed, undiagnosed, basically anyone from the age of 17 up. And I'm a psychotherapist first. And so what that means is I spend a lot of time with people in the attachment space, you know, from the work of John Bowlby. And in the work of the unconscious. So psychotherapy is really based on— I mean, I love the work of Bruce Perry. There's so many we can name. But in terms of when we look at 0 to 5, 0 to 10, and the experiences of the human brain and how influential it is in organizing itself in those years and how much that then gets projected onto the trajectory that we walk in life and that we are very much unconscious to that until we make it conscious and we choose to go on whatever healing journey that is. So that's, that's who I am today. God, I've been an ex-marketing director, sports marketing company director, you know, um, um, like I said, it's been an adventurous journey, but, um, but that's me now.
John Milham (Host) · 04:23
That's, um, great way of describing it. I'm fascinated, uh, by the idea that Um, we, we are so influenced by our parents and they shape stuff. And some of it, like, you're grateful for, you know, the structure that gave you all of those things behind you on the wall, right? And, um, but of course so many, and particularly you would encounter them and work with people, so many of the things they're given from their family circumstance are not as useful as, uh, degrees and, uh, and deployments. 100%.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 04:56
Yeah. And if you're interested in that, John, I'm not sure if you've read, um, The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog by, by Dr. Bruce Perry. Yeah. And, and, you know, I love that book. And so, so, you know, so we know, right, that, you know, and I use this in layman's terms, you know, with my clients, you know, it's children need to be seen, heard, validated, unconditionally loved, and provided with physical and emotional safety. And I do this process, you know, with my clients. I'm like, and it's at the caregiver level. So is it mom? Is it dad? Is it my adopted parents, grandparents, whoever it is that took the caregiver role? And you, some people have, you know, 2 or 3, 2 mums, 2 dads, whatever. And I say to people, 0 to 5, right? How much were you seen? 0 to 5. 5 is, you know, I felt seen all the time. And I say to people that have been, look confused, and I go, well, kids who don't feel seen, they'll describe themselves as feeling really invisible. That's literally, they say, I felt invisible as a child. You know, and we go through this process and it really opens up for people these huge sort of gaps, you know. And so I've got my own gaps as well, you know. My parents split when I was very, very young, um, you know, a lot of undiagnosed neurodiversity as we see in that generation. And we know the hereditary nature of ASD, ADHD, the whole piece, you know. So we know that that's going back through the gene lines, um, you know, all of that was really uncovered, you know, by me, you know. That's when our family came to light about our own neurodiversity And, you know, so there are things that were given to me that were— I highly valued, you know, in terms of the best education and the motivation and the value proposition that, you know, education is essential for critical thinking, for problem solving, you know. So, you know, I was very privileged in that. But, you know, I also had some of those childhood gaps and wounds. You know, I lived a very invalidating childhood. You know, I was also— undiagnosed ADHD, right, until my early 40s, you know. Yet, you know, people would say, where's Gina? And the response was, oh, she's on the roof, you know. Or like, I have the first piece of thing at work I did at school that I still have, you know. It's called Monday's Hyperactive Child. But the science was where it was, right, at the time and stuff, you know. My parents split when I was very young, you know, and it was a high-conflict situation, you know, you know, for decades and decades and decades. And, you know, as we know, these, you know, so, so, you know, everybody has these childhood attachment wounds. Everybody, even people who come from the most, you know, loving family. So, for example, you know, there are people who are like, my parents, you know, loved me desperately. You know, we had a lovely household. And all of a sudden you ask them questions. So who taught you about sex? Oh, no, we didn't talk about that. Or who told you about puberty? Oh, no, we didn't talk about that. Who told you you were going to have a wet dream? Oh, school. Oh, who like allowed you to express your feelings when you were sad? Oh no, we didn't do that. So what that is is invalidation, right? There's a conditional love component to that, and it's not intentional, right? We talk about omission and commission, right? So by omission, no one's intending, right, to shut everybody down. It's part of the family system, right? That comes from, you know, the intergenerational piece. But in terms of if we are cutting children off from their emotions, by not allowing it or supporting it or just having that, you know, that is a form of abuse and neglect, right? Because emotions are energy in motion designed to move through us. And in our formative years, we're having these interrelational like interactions, right? As all our neurons are building at billions of miles an hour right back then. Right. And so, and but, but we're being cut off and blocked off from, from letting those experience go full circle, which is to talk about them, to validate them, you know, and to integrate them into the brain.
John Milham (Host) · 08:59
So the idea, like we've mentioned, you know, in other discussions, the idea that young people are really in a bit of a, you know, a high impact stage, you know, situation in life where their mental health is very challenged and the world is a complex, you know, VUCA world. It's variable, it's complex, it's uncertain. And if you, you know, if I take what you're saying, emotions as kind of translators of life, right? Where our, our interface with the actual act of living is through emotions, right? So where's going wrong? Because, you know, our parents were lack of emotions. Our, my, my generation has tried, uh, we've tried to raise our kids differently. So what, what are, what's messed up? What do you think's gone wrong?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 09:50
Ah, so very good question. So Bronfenbrenner's ecological theory of child development, right, will tell you that children have two environments: home and school. That's it, right? And so, uh, when we talk about the, um, you know, child and adolescent mental health crisis that's going on, right, we need to look at both of those environments, right? School and home. So what's going wrong in both of those environments? Well, what's going on in school school is we don't have enough resources, right? We don't have enough support going on. Nobody cared that these kids went through, went through, um, went through COVID for 3 years. That's a developmental gap, and we just steamrolled right over that. They went back to school and we went, oh my God, the children are out of control. Children are not born bad. It's not the children. The problem is the adults, right? And the environments that the adults are creating in which these children are being raised, right? So the schools are starved. Right, of resources, systems, um, flexibility. Um, you know, we're looking at 25% pretty much across the board of neurodiversity. Are we really catering for neurodiverse learning in schools? Absolutely not. No, not in my experience either. And now we're looking at this extreme inequality. You know, we've got— you've got the public system completely starved in every single way, right? Or you're choosing God or some form of God, whatever, you know, different God choices, you know, or you're paying 50 grand a year, right? And so all of a sudden, right, these are the choices that parents are trying to make. And these are the environments that you're choosing for your child. You're not choosing an education, you're choosing an environment. And at the moment, the choices are really bleak. And then the second piece is, is then you take that into the home, right? My master's thesis is on parental stress from raising children with ADHD, right? Without going down that rabbit hole, the kind of stress that's going on at home, right? When both parents have to work full-time jobs, right? To put a home, a roof over their head, or even if you're choosing top dollar education, right? The pressure of, you know, 50 grand a year, right? That's 100 grand a year pre-tax if you've got that kind of money, right? And so all of a sudden, No one's around to raise the kids, not because the parents don't want to be there, right? But the demands on them to cope with raising their children in society, right, means that they're unavailable for their children because they're stressed, because they're in fight and flight themselves, right? And they're trying to cope with a society that's demanding more of the resources than parents actually have available to them. And we're not stepping in. We're not stepping in to fix these environments of school and home. In fact, we're getting worse.
John Milham (Host) · 12:56
Do you think, you know, so calling back onto your experience as you described, right, there were real, there were problems in your family, but not from love, right? But from circumstance and relational breakdown and so on. But do you think, are you informed that like your journey through undiagnosed ADHD and then what it, you know, does that inform your understanding and connection to the current issues or did it drive you wanting to do something about it?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 13:25
No, absolutely. I think like I got to it. So in my early 20s was I was at my lowest point in life. I had very significant depression. Um, and, um, yeah, very significant depression. But my hyperfocus, my ADHD superpower, if you like, is I'm obsessed with information and knowledge. And I go down a rabbit hole, as everybody does with ADHD when they're obsessed with something. But sort of getting to the— not the truth, because what is that? But getting to the underlying factors, right? In terms of how did we end up here? How did I end up here? This doesn't make sense to me. And so in my early 20s, that was real. That was my first really significant, you know, turning point because I was at rock bottom. And actually, this psychiatrist treated me for free or for Medicare only and, and chose to do that. And, you know, to this day, I still don't know why she chose to do that, but she just chose to help me, you know? And if I, I rang her up not many years ago, actually, and I said, I just want you to know how much you saved me. And she was so surprised. She said, what are you talking about, Gina? And I said to her, no, I just actually want to let you know how, how the impact that you had on me and, and how you sent me off on a different trajectory because you just decided to help me, not for any reason, not because you were related to me. And that's when I really learned the concept of, right, that help, you know, not family of choice, but there actually are people out there who will choose to help you and decide to help you. And I actually ended up with this surrogate dad, and he's still my surrogate dad today. And so I took my first job out of uni. I was— I wanted to take a year off after the HSC, and I went and worked as a dental nurse. And I just— I, I got the Centrelink ad, and, uh, and the dentist, uh, you know, is this beautiful man, married with his own, you know, his own young children. And he became my surrogate dad, and he's still my surrogate dad, you know. And in terms of someone who's been emotionally available and caring for me through my entire adult life You know, you know, this man today who's got his own wife and his own children, I babysat his kids, you know, beautiful person and stuff. But like, he's been a father to me my whole life, you know? And so I've really, you know, I really stepped into that space as I grew, you know, and just, you know, you know, the psychiatrist, him and some other people just— they really taught me around just that, that like just being generous, like, you know, coming from a place of love, like, you know, and I call it, you know, I'm really open to this concept of family by choice, you know, because, you know, I'm like, why would you keep bashing your head against a brick wall in an environment that isn't giving you what you need? Like, each individual, each child deserves, right, all of those things to be seen, to be heard, unconditional love, emotional and physical safety, you know. And the, the most interesting thing about our brain's biology is we're so hardwired to crave this. Yeah, from our parents, you know, and our parents, biological parents, right? We crave it. And if I do a PhD one day, I'd love that to be one of them, because it doesn't biologically make sense, right? As a child, we know that we demand that from our parents as our caregivers, because otherwise as a species we don't survive, right? And so that's why we know these childhood wounds form. There's something wrong with me, I'm not good enough, it's my fault. Because the species, the brain, turns it on itself because it says we're not going to risk something's wrong with our caregivers because that puts my survival as a Homo sapiens animal at risk, right? So I'm going to say there's something wrong with me. So that I get. But why then that becomes this craving to fulfill these needs by those primary caregivers once we're a full— the brain is fully developed, right? Like, that makes no sense to me. You know, it's like there's a letting go process that really should happen that doesn't. But, you know, I have seen, you know, full adults, you know, when their parents, you know, pass away, you know, and this, this— I see this eruption of the trauma, you know, of this longing for this relationship to, you know, and all those the things we talk about, you know, to, for them to still want to experience that from their biological parents. And it, it, I, yeah, I really wanna do a PhD on that cuz it makes no sense.
John Milham (Host) · 18:17
It sounds amazing. Do you think like, it's interesting because, you know, like, um, a couple of things pop up from what you say. The idea that you found, you talk about your journey, right? But it, you know, is that analogous with solving those early disc, you know, you know, gaps between what should have been useful and not, you know, and wasn't, right? The reality and the, and the dream of what I, what we could look at archetype childhood, right? You know, like connecting with archetypal parents who give us perfect, um, nurturing and perfect safety and all of the, the rest of the elements that you talk about. So how you solve that is, you know, usually children don't have the resources themselves. So you connected that family of choice you had. Is that, is that, that's luck or was that you or what?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 19:09
You know? Yeah, I think I went, I think I wasn't conscious at the time, you know, but I definitely was looking for answers, you know, I definitely was looking, I was definitely looking for answers, but I think it was more primal back then in terms of like, You know, when we talk about grit, you know, in the work of Angela Duckworth, you know, like, definitely, like, am I— was I born a fighter? Was I born, like, rise from the ashes? Was I born, like, get up and fight? Like, yeah, that's— there is definitely a genetic component or genetic trait in me, you know, um, in terms of just to keep going and not give up, you know. Um, But so I think that was probably more what was driving it at the time. But definitely, as I entered therapy, and I've done over— God, how old am I now? 25 years of therapy. And I continue to use therapy right as I need it or want to go and do some work on myself. Then I think as I started to understand some of the layers and I really started to understand that there was this onion that needed to be unpeeled and rebuilt. You know, I think I started to really understand that through my early therapeutic experiences, and I think it just kind of took off from there.
John Milham (Host) · 20:32
Which is, you know, fortuitous because, you know, that growth, um, that journey sort of ended up resolving some of those challenges and allowing you to heal, right? Yeah. Which I, you know, we can talk about as we go. But, um, it goes back to the thought, right? When you shared the idea of, of the experience of childhood Ericsson and Perry and so on creating the states of development that are so crucial, but so few children end up in that perfect storm. So I wonder if the idea of it takes a village to raise a child was much more about it takes a village to get a normal childhood, and I wonder if we've not lost those institutions and understanding, you know, and as a result, we're seeing an outbreak of non-normal outcomes getting to sort of, you know, early adulthood.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 21:26
I think you're absolutely exactly right. I think that the environment that children are raised in today is absolutely lacking what we know, uh, is required for human brain development. Because absolutely it's children, right? And I don't want to talk about it like not as human beings because it is. We talk about what is the concept of the mind, but ultimately what we're talking about in those early years is we need environments that mean the organization of the brain in the early years, the neural pathways and connections that get set up in the brain and the nervous system, right? We're talking about there is a certain— there are certain structures and certain neural pathways that need to be set up early in life, you know, in a healthy way. That means that gives people a much better chance of being a healthy, functioning adult. I mean, that's ultimately what we're talking about. And yeah, absolutely, 100%. Does it take a village to raise a child? Absolutely.
John Milham (Host) · 22:32
It's very hard with adults, you know, given, you know, the generational impacts, you know, the misunderstandings that were around raising children. In the past, right, it's hard for one parent to have all of the capacity to offer all of the things you're talking about, you know, being seen.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 22:48
Exactly right.
John Milham (Host) · 22:49
Validated emotional and physical safety. So that village concept offering a much multiple individuals to do it, like your experience and to be truthful, mine, right? I, you know, that rings a bell with me because You know, it was other men that gave me my chance, you know, other institutions that gave me my chance rather than my home. So it rings true. So that's interesting. So you are there as a, as an adult, right? You're growing into many years of therapy, which is a very, you know, an element. A lot of people who are now giving back in that area, in that space and handing back to community often talk about their own therapeutic journey, right? Um, how important do you feel, right, your experiences of your childhood, uh, ACEs, you know, adverse childhood experiences for the, for the audience, and, um, and, you know, the process of try of how that impacts your adulthood, obviously, because you bring your circumstance into your relationships and your engagement. So what, what do you think was, was drive, you know, what motivation and what capital did that give you for for, you know, taking on your career to taking a direction in life?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 24:03
Ah, oh, in terms like, but back in the day. Okay. So this is, I love this story because this is, this is, this is my, uh, this is my, um, coping mechanism crash and burn, uh, re-identity story. So, um, um, and, and, and there's a, the ADHD piece in there, right? So we all form these adaptive, you know, behaviors. So for me, it was external validation, right? I was captain of this, I won that, I got this sport, I did that, you know, and I got really good at achieving. I was amazing at achieving, right? I just, because what I say to people, and you know, you won't find this in the, the literature, but so many clinical hours of it, right? So what we do is we all form these adaptive response mechanisms, right? And they vary for different people, but for me it was, um, it was validation through achievement. But when you have ADHD, it's like sticking a hyperdrive on the end of that. So not only am I good at achievement, but you put my neurodiversity on end of that and wow, watch me go. And so people have always said to me all my life, you know, oh, you can do anything that you want to do. And I go, oh, well, if you really knew the reason why I can't do that.
John Milham (Host) · 25:10
Yeah. It's the want bit that's dodgy, not the can-do bit, right?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 25:15
Exactly. So, uh, I went off and did a lot of achieving in my career and, you know, I had an amazing career as a, as a, um, as a, you know, as a, as a marketing director and in sports marketing and agencies and Commonwealth Games and all, you know, Qantas, HSBC, you know, IMG, all the, all the big guns and had an amazing career.
John Milham (Host) · 25:38
Right.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 25:39
But like every time I landed on an achievement, it was just like, next, next, next, next. And, and, you know, and also there was, you know, I was very aware of the dysregulation that would happen to me at times. In terms of just— there were times that in business, and I see it now in corporations, everybody's projecting and throwing their childhood wounds at everybody. And I don't mean it in a funny way, but it's reflective that makes me laugh and smile about it because that's what I was doing as well, right? You need to recognize me. The power struggles, the I deserve the promotion, the victim behavior that goes with that, the people pleasing. We talk about people sucking up, people with their own agendas, etc. And it's just everybody playing out their childhood wounds, whether it's manipulation, whether it's people pleasing, you know, whether it's narcissism, power struggles, victimhood, you know, I mean, this is what we see in any organization, right? And so it got to the point where I burnt out really badly. And also I had kids. And so when I had kids, I lost all that power.
John Milham (Host) · 26:49
Yeah.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 26:49
You know, I was making amazing money. You know, I had status, titles, the whole bit. And then I became a mom, which I really wanted to do. And I didn't realize, but all of that got stripped from me in an instant. And also when I went back to work and I went back to the crazy system that I used, I also got burnout and I ended up with HPA axis dysfunction really badly. So then I had a complete identity crisis. And then there's a few different turning points in there, but that was a particular turning point again for me where I was like, again, because I've been in in and out of therapy all the time. I was always taking myself, so I was always sort of learning bits and pieces. But that whole crash that I had, you know, and, you know, I love, I love the, um, I love Finding Joe, uh, which, you know, you can watch free. And if I, you know, I love that, and I give that to all my clients, you know. I just love that it says so much, and someone else can— you can just watch it for an hour, right? And you're like, okay, I get that. Um, you know, so that was kind of, you know, some of my Finding Joe, you know, hero's journey moments. And that's probably— that was, that was where the opportunity in my journey to completely unpeel the onion, like literally down to the core and rebuild it, you know, that was that piece for me. And that's the journey that I went on. But like, absolutely, it totally informs, you know, the work that I do today and why I work in the area I do in my practice, you know, because because I fully understand the science on how influential those 0 to 5 years are. You know, as children we're powerless, right? And I also understand, you know, I read a lot of stuff on, on environment. You know, one of my other favorite books— I'll forget it right now because I'm in perimenopause, um, but, um, you know, environment, environment, environment. So they became my two real sort of obsessions and, and my own, and part of the therapy in my own journey, right? Because it's when we put those two pieces together that we're really be able to understand, oh, it wasn't my fault. It's not me.
John Milham (Host) · 29:02
Which is interesting. Can I hold, uh, can I ask a confronting question about therapy? Right? Because you are a psychotherapist, right?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 29:10
I am.
John Milham (Host) · 29:11
Yeah. And, um, uh, that whole describing your journey, right? Really sort of sings to me the idea of, uh, you know, what is normal where, you know, there's, you know, exceptionalism is like this We measure achievement by all of these milestones of material achievement and recognition and status and power and money, of course. But, um, if that's breathing, if that's normal breath, right? Then it actually doesn't, you know, you still have to take the next one, right? Which means another achievement is necessary just to keep your normality, to keep yourself alive. And of course, all those years of therapy, why did that not change? It wasn't until you had You know, like we talk about the hero's journey, which is Finding Joe, which is about Joseph Campbell, of course, the hero's journey, right? And he, and that changes when you have basically death and rebirth, the idea of being completely destroyed and then be re, remade with new wisdom. Why is that necessary? You had all this therapy. Why couldn't the therapist help you fix things before you had to fall completely in a heap?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 30:20
Yeah, because I think there's an interesting journey of therapy itself, right? And I don't want to speak negatively about different therapies, but so what trauma therapy teaches us, right? And let's also understand that trauma therapy, as far as neuroscience, right, in the last 10 years, 20 years, right? Groundbreaking, you know, at the research level in the way that we understand, you know, I mean, it's not that long ago that we thought the brain was a machine, right? As opposed to, you know, what we know now is the brain is completely plastic, right? And capable of rewiring. So when we, when we talk— so, so there's different types of therapy. And if we think of a human being as a tree, you know, we've got roots, we've got the trunk, we've got the branches and the leaves. So as a psychotherapist, I deal with the roots so that the trunk, the trees, and the branches grow healthily, right? So that's what I do in psychotherapy, right? People just start to feel differently and respond differently whether in the outside world. I don't give people, you know, this strategy or that strategy. Yeah, sure. We talk about a bit of that, some coping stuff, but ultimately in the therapy I do, my clients will come back in and they will just tell me, oh, I didn't react like that. Oh, I had this situation. Oh, I actually saw myself in someone else's behavior and recognized that I, that used to be me. Right. So I, in psychotherapy, it's like, how do we change the inside world? Because then the outside world will simply change as a result of us changing on the inside. You know? So I didn't have a lot of psychotherapy until later on. Oh, okay.
John Milham (Host) · 32:09
So Yeah, I was in therapy, but I wasn't in psychotherapy. And I guess, I guess it goes down my, um, personal, you know, this is my opinion, sorry, all my friends who are therapists, um, all of it's good, but some of it's more good, right?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 32:27
Yeah, so that's right.
John Milham (Host) · 32:29
And it's interesting cuz no, no one heals, no, no one heals anyone else. They only heal themselves. So what, you know, finding what you need to do to, you know, to, to heal through whatever resources, other people and experiences and so on. But it's interesting, right? Rock bottom. We cont— you know, life continually provides, you know, scenarios for us to exist in, and they are either good or bad depending on our proximity to, you know, the pain and suffering of one or the other, right? Um, so life will continually struggle. Why do we need to go back to rock bottom? Is it a matter of resetting? Or is it the, an overwhelming, you know, um, something that overwhelms previous programming and, you know, why, why do we need to continually end up in a suffering state to change?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 33:15
It's so interesting that, isn't it? That's another PhD somewhere. Um, but it's so interesting that, and it's so, there are a few things right about the neurobiology and the development of the human brain Um, that, you know, we don't know or don't have answers for. And they are actually things I've come to accept. So, and that's exactly what, and to be honest, that's one of those things, you know, and, and, you know, because the answer, you know, I'm, I'm looking for answers inside myself. I have to say, I'm not looking for answers, you know, from third parties or, or other explanations, to be honest. And that's obviously my personal choice. But the way I look at it is it's like we weren't in control of what happened to us, right? And when we can understand that we're not responsible for us, right, then that is what gives us the opportunity to then take accountability for it. And, you know, I'm very open with my clients about that in terms of, you know, What happened to you was wrong. You deserved better. Every single child, you know, deserves X, Y, Z, right? But not many of us get it right. But you are responsible for deciding how you respond to what happened to you. And that— in that lies the choice. Now, this is the bit that I get frustrated with with society is everyone should have that choice. Right? Because not everybody chooses it. People say, no, I just want to stay ignorant, potter along, whatever. I'm, I'm good with that. I'm like, great, it's your choice. The bit I get frustrated with the society and the mental health system, you know, and just all the constructs, is that if a, if a child is not born into, you know, an advantageous environment, right, then at least give them the choice. To heal, support them to, to be able to make that choice, you know, or have that choice available to them. Because there's plenty of people who have the means to heal and choose not to, right? Lots of people make that choice. But a child who's born into disadvantageous, you know, circumstances and is still never given that choice to heal, right? That's the bit that I have to say really grinds me. You know, I, I was given the choice, and part of the reason I was given the choice is because I was so highly educated. For all the things that were going on, you know, in my childhood, you know, both my parents valued education. It was the one thing they agreed upon, right? So in terms of critical thinking, right, problem solving, questioning what you're told, questioning truth, right? You know, I was given the opportunity to heal because, you know, I was, I was given the choice to walk the path of healing, you know, and that's the bit that I get a bit grated with, you know, I think I don't know why, you know, I mean, I, you know, society has a lot to answer for in terms of the attachment wounds that children end up with. But, you know, let's, let's give them a chance. Let's give them a chance and a choice to heal if that's what they want to do.
John Milham (Host) · 36:28
Yeah, I really like that idea that it's, you know, we can throw the resources out into the, into the field. We don't need to lock them up in special institutions or put gatekeepers on the door to those resources.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 36:42
They're not healing in there.
John Milham (Host) · 36:44
No, exactly. Yeah. Great. A great thought. Of course, once you take, you know, I love that idea of you, you being, you know, having the, the gift of some extra resources to heal. But of course the, the world, life continues to throw, you know, opportunities to get to the next level at you, right? So plenty of those in there, right? The idea that, uh, oh gosh, you know, just when I'm sort of, you know, getting hold of thinking, you know, like I'm putting to bed some of the challenges, right? You get new ones. And of course, some of those involve tragedy and some of those involve, um, pain and suffering and, um, and, and a call to arms, you know, whether I go on living or not, right? Um, and I, I, you know, without sort of going into much detail, I know you've had and a fair dose of your, you know, your own, right? Mm-hmm. Um, how, how do you step up in, into those, right? If you're, if, you know, if there are a need to gather resources to, to walk the path of healing, how do you find a way to, to continually just step up to that? Yeah.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 37:54
Like I, I, you know, absolutely. Like, you know, one thing I, I, I love Alicia Keys and I love her music. And, um, but she didn't, she wrote this book and I haven't actually read the book, which there's this quote that from it. And she said, you know, she said, once I understood, right, the groundlessness, right, of, of life, she goes, once I understood that uncertainty was its true nature, that the ground was never still underneath me, you know, to begin with, you know, then this incredible power came to her, you know, from a realization and acceptance of that. And I think there's something really really powerful in that, that we all need to think about because we struggle so much with uncertainty. But yeah, I— yes, when I lost a sibling to suicide, yeah, it took me a long time. Or again, I was back in places within myself that I didn't think life would ask me to go to again. Really? Sorry, I have to laugh because I really didn't think that life was going to ask me to do that. And it did. And I think I've stopped saying the last profound lesson I've got to learn because I've really come to accept that there is this constant momentum, this constant momentum where I am just growing and being and integrating and reintegrating. And what I've learned is is at the core of that is that my greatest gift to myself, my own life, and what I can give to others is to be so innately connected to my true self that, that is, and that I build a life that allows me to be that. There's two components to that. The first component is that I truly believe that, you know, if I can be as deeply connected to myself as I need to be, which, which, which, you know, means we go down these rabbit holes time and time again., you know, and it's dark and it's alone. And, you know, the thing that I really, you know, encourage all people to do, you know, and I say this to my clients, is like, my job is to be in the cave with you, to hold your hand, to walk alongside you and hold the torch so that you know you're not alone. Because none of this healing work gets done alone. You know, we are a relational social species. It is in relation with others. You know, I'm not sure if you've read Interpersonal Neurobiology, but there's this beautiful concept of the brain that, you know, in terms of we have our internal nervous system being the brain and our entire nervous system, and then we have the nervous system of the other person, and then we have our neuro— neuro-neurons and the way our nervous systems interrelate to each other. And within that becomes this concept of the mind. And, you know, so I don't believe that anything should be done on our own. As we talk about, you know, there is trauma trauma, and then there is being the trauma of being alone with your trauma, you know, and it's that interrelational piece. Um, so, you know, that piece is, it's that personal meaning around, you know, to be as deeply connected to myself, you know, as I can. And that means, you know, that means fear-facing. You know, I'm a really big fan of facing fear. Um, you know, I think it is one of the greatest things that every human being needs to do. You cannot be fully connected to yourself if you cannot stand with your fears, you know? And when people talk about fear-facing and pushing through it and all that stuff, you know, it's sitting with it. It's sitting with it. I am afraid of, you know, my greatest fear is, you know, sitting with how uncomfortable that feels. How do we befriend fear? How do we hold its hand? Right. It because it, most people do not realize how much fear is driving their thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, you know.
John Milham (Host) · 42:10
Oh, just on that, on that idea. So in that fear, right? That holding and accepting that fear, that sent a beautiful, you gave us a beautiful sense of stasis there of like that homeostasis. I'm there in that moment, right? But moving forward, Is that purpose? Yeah. Is that purpose that moves us from that acceptance of fear, that moment of fear beyond there?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 42:35
Is that correct? I, I believe, I believe so. That's my belief.
John Milham (Host) · 42:39
Yeah.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 42:40
Because, because, you know, when I'm in that, when I'm in that, that centered, when I'm living in that centered place of, you know, homeostasis, if you want, that is, is in, is in deep connection with with, you know, what feels like my, you know, authentic self, soul, whatever it is, right? Then I, I am living with purpose because this is who I'm meant to be.
John Milham (Host) · 43:08
I'm sorry, I interrupted the second.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 43:11
No, that's very peaceful. That's, I find that very, you know, it's brought, that's, it's the most peaceful I've ever felt, you know, in finding that connection. The, so I think it is. Yeah, I think it is, you know, Like, I'm not sure. I, I, I, I, I, I don't— purpose, yes. For me, it's personal meaning, you know. And there's a neurodiversity aspect to this as well, you know. I talk about this a lot with my ADHDers and their clients, you know. As ADHDers, there's so many things we've got to do that we don't want to do, you know. We're all about shiny things and hyperfocus and, you know, the thrill and, and, you know, whatever it is, right? We bring amazing gifts of creativity and science and entertainment and solving to the world, you know. Things that move human beings on the inside, right? That is the special gift of neurodiversity. But from an ADHD perspective, you know, we see this, right? There has to be this connection with personal meaning for motivation to occur. You know, there's all these motivational models— what is made up of motion, you know, self-talk, change talk, blah blah blah blah— and it's all good. I, I love motivational interviewing, you know. But from a, from a neurodiversity ADHD perspective, you know, that personal meaning meaning, right? If that's not there, motivation isn't there. Yeah, I'm happy to be proved wrong. I'm open. Anyone, if anyone wants to come and prove me wrong on that, because you don't so much read about that in the literature, sort of indirectly it's there, but this personal meaning. So I think purpose, yes, but for me it's personal meaning. The second piece is within a world, right, that there is so much you should, you have to, you must, right?
John Milham (Host) · 45:00
Mm-hmm.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 45:01
How do we maintain a life of congruency with ourself and who we are, um, when there are so many rules? You know, stories about what we have to do, not do, etc. And I see this is the major problem with children in education. You know, it's like there's all these things we're measuring and it's like, well, why don't you measure stress levels? Why don't you actually— why on the report cards isn't there, this is how much I love my teacher or I don't, this is how safe I feel in my classroom, this is how much I love coming to school, this is how regulated I feel at school, this is how many friends I really feel like I've got. 'Actually, you know, this is how I'm, you know, this is, these are the people that I'm really struggling with,' right? And this comes back to fear. The reason we don't want to measure and ask these things is because as adults we're really scared to ask them or know the adults, because what it does is it puts a mirror in our face. 'I don't get on with those other teacher peers. This happened to me at school. I was really bad at, at, um, friend-making. I didn't belong at That's why we don't ask these things, you know, a lifetime of, a lifetime of practice of avoidance.
John Milham (Host) · 46:18
Exactly.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 46:19
Avoidance in, in all its many forms, dissociation. That's the whole bit, right? And so, you know, we, we praise these children on these report cards and it's like we value what we measure, so therefore we measure what we value. And it goes back and says, well, if that's what you are valuing, that's not being seen, being heard, being validated, being unconditionally loved and providing emotional and physical safety. ADHD. So you are not measuring any of those.
John Milham (Host) · 46:45
I find it fascinating that when we diagnose ADHD in adults, they, we ask them to go right back to their report cards and say, you know, and, and look for certain statements and patterns of being problematic, right? Oh, you know, were you, did you, did you, did you get, you know, the, did you get the criticism on your report card? All right, now we can use that as a, as validating your ADHD diagnosis. Diagnosis, right? That's it.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 47:13
And as long as it's under the age of 12, we can give you access to the stimulants. But if we can't validate you below the age of 12, you can only have access to the non-stimulants.
John Milham (Host) · 47:24
Yeah.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 47:25
Um, crazy stuff.
John Milham (Host) · 47:26
Yeah, it's, it's crazy that, um, you know, the school system, you know, treated them so badly. We use that as a diagnostic tool, right?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 47:35
But no one seems to be— everyone seems to be okay.
John Milham (Host) · 47:39
But, you know, I'm sitting there going, I'm like, you know, I can tell you, you know, my, my report card for my diagnosis, my report cards all contain the same thing, right? Which is, it's amazing, right? When you talk about personal meaning and then, you know, this sense of, um, uh, of essentially what you're, am I, uh, hearing that you're talking about the, all of the external cues of who we are, right? Our identity is described by others. Right? You know, you know, um, uh, is what we rely on when we— and yet the real strength comes from when we finally unlock, when we unlock our own identity and how we see and accept our own traits and aspects. That's right.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 48:23
And that's the right of every single person. You get to choose who you are, John. I get to choose who I am. Every person should have the choice. You decide who you are and who you wanna be in this life, right? That's the right— that's what, that's what actually, that's what actually all the human rights things say. If you look at the United Nations, uh, rights on the child, it's exactly what it says.
John Milham (Host) · 48:46
Yeah, yeah. Wow. So why does the medical model insist on telling people what's wrong with them and who they are?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 48:54
Well, that's just what the medical model is, you know. The medical model isn't really useful when we talk about the outcomes or the symptoms that result from environmental impact, if you like.
John Milham (Host) · 49:08
Yeah.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 49:08
I don't know if you've ever read Johann Hari's book in terms called Lost Connections, the real reasons behind depression. Yes, we know there is genetic-based depression. Absolutely. We do know that, right? It's in the science. But there's way too many people depressed versus what we know are the numbers on, on genetic-based depression, right, or genetic-based anxiety. Um, so it's like, well, we need to go looking for some other reasons then, you know. And I love his book because that's what his book talks about, you know. And then we're in the realms of positive psychology, which I love. Martin Seligman, you know, his PERMA model, beautiful, right? Positive emotion, personal meaning, uh, you know, in relation with others, you know. Or like, his PERMA model is beautiful, you know.
John Milham (Host) · 49:55
I love the idea that, that, you know, they talk about a life well Right. Which is a con— you know, connection. So I, you know, are we extrapolating that, uh, depression, anxiety is really illustrating in many ways a disconnection with things that are actually resourceful for people?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 50:10
Yeah. Well, that's what, that's what Jahan Hari will tell you. He will say to you that depression is disconnected. That's what he'll tell you.
John Milham (Host) · 50:18
And people like, you know, modern neuro, neuroscience is, is pointing us in that direction. You can see it, you know, Dr. Mark Williams, the Australian you're saying. Euroscientists talks about the dis— the, yeah, the connection phenomena. What is, what is then the, you know, how do we rebuild? How do we reinforce? How do we create, um, say virtual villages to support the healing journey? You know, how do we improve the capacity of our people? 100%.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 50:43
Like, and this is the really hard bit, right? And this is the bit sort of that is part two, right? So part two is, okay, so how do How do I build a life, you know, within the social constructed environment that demands I exist within it without running off to the jungle and hanging out there by yourself, right? How do I build a life that allows me to live in alignment with who I am, deeply connected to myself? How do I do that, right? I don't think there's any simple or easy answer for that. That, because from a neurodiversity perspective, for me as well, right? Like, you know, what we're saying, 2 to 3% of adults, but all the leading scientists will tell you the majority of, you know, adults are yet to be diagnosed with ADHD, simply a function of where the, the science is at. Um, you know, 7 to 8% of children. So in terms of like, uh, you know, is there a small percentage of the world whose brain works like mine? Yeah, I'm a minority, right? But You know, and we know, you know, from an ADHD perspective, there's very specific environments where ADHD brains will absolutely shine and do their best. And there are environments where ADHD brains will just crumble and break, right? Um, it's that, you know, it's, it's, it's either, it's either this is a great environment or these environments don't work for your brain. But it's the same for all of us, right? Because the lack of connection is something, doesn't matter what kind of brain you have, right? We're social animals. And that underpins, you know, that sense of, you know, it's like the loneliness epidemic that everyone's talking about. It's disconnection, right? And so I think, you know, I think there is, there's choices to be made, right, for each person. But can we expect children to do that? No way. I mean, these are choices I made midlife, you know. Is it okay I made them midlife? It is for me because, you know, this is the journey I walk. You know, you can't change the past. It's gone. The future is what's available to you. But again, do we give people the opportunity to make a choice to build an environment that's right for them, their needs and their brain? Again, no, we take that choice away from people. You know, like, again, I live a privilege that allows me to do that. That, you know, there is a, you know, my capacity, the education I got, the drive I have, my ADHD, you know, ability to earn money, you know, create things, you know, like I, all of those things I've utilized. But it's also, there's a lot of privilege that I've had that has allowed me to walk that path and walk that journey, right? And also I became really open to people still helping me and helping others. You know, I'm a big fan of this give out, get back type thing, you know, and I, I give a lot out and as a result of that I get a lot back. You know, people will help me if I ask them because they're like, she helped me, you know. So I don't have the answer on that, but I do, you know, through everything I've read, you know, from the deepest evidence and the science, you know, through to, uh, you know, through to You know, Jahan Hari through to Bruce Perry, you know, go back to Bowlby, Freud, you know, the early psychotherapies, um, you know, ecological theories of child development, interpersonal neurobiology, you know, they're all saying the same thing, right? Yes, we have more advancement. Yes, we understand neurologically, you know, more. Yes, we can look at the wiring more, but it's like meditation, you know, all of a sudden You know, the Western world's going, meditation works.
John Milham (Host) · 54:29
Yeah.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 54:29
It's like, only because, only because the medical model can prove it based on random control trials, because that's the only measurement you have for evidence. But people have been meditating for 3,000 years.
John Milham (Host) · 54:44
I think, yeah, I think the, the, the gurus in India have other evidence that they're quite comfortable accepting.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 54:50
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 54:51
Yeah.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 54:51
And so not Noam Chomsky, right, who is this incredible modern-day philosopher. Thinker, philosopher. Yeah, all of that, economist, the whole bit. I love it. He has this saying, and I can't remember the exact words, so I might get it wrong, but he said, "No one's going to come and pour the truth in a cup for you. You have to go find it for yourself." But the thing is that you have to know in the beginning that there is potentially a different truth out there there to even ask that question.
John Milham (Host) · 55:24
Yeah.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 55:24
And this is again the bit where we rob people, right? Give them the education, like give them what they need so that they can actually know or ask the question, maybe there's another truth out there. Because if we believe we're stuck, if we believe we can't change, if we believe there's no hope, if we don't even have a flicker of hope that there might be an alternate reality, an alternate lens, an alternate reason reason, right? Then we're in a complete state of hopelessness and disempowerment.
John Milham (Host) · 55:59
Yeah.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 55:59
And no human being or society should rob that from another human being, right? There's just, that's just a moral violation in my view on every sense of the word, right? Don't take away the opportunity for another human being to find their truth. You don't have the right to do that.
John Milham (Host) · 56:19
That's a brilliant, a brilliant thought. And I think we could probably go on for multiple, multiple podcasts, right? Because there's so many, I'm left with more questions than I started with. So that's, I very much appreciate your turning the juices on. Of course, there's rabbit holes I need to go down, but I'm interested in bringing it back to your personal journey as well. So, you know, I, I, I love the, you know, acknowledging that challenges and grief and tragedy and suffering, you know, all of those things are those moments of, of genuine human, a catalyst for transition. How did you ma— you know, like, you know, moving through the journey and, and, and taking that personal moment to, you know, the calmness of that personal me meaning? How did you gain meaning out of those? Very, very difficult. What was the key for you?
Gina McClement (Guest) · 57:22
Um, interestingly, again, back to, you know, so I say this, so I used to be fueled by very, very powerful energy, but that energy was dark. And now I'm powered by an even more powerful energy, and that energy is self-love. And love for others. And I had a client actually, and interestingly, he made the same energy shift in the journey that he, he, he walked along together. And one of the things that he said to me, he said to me, oh, it, it doesn't feel as strong as the dark energy. And I said, no, it's actually way more powerful. It's just that you haven't known it before. It's new for you and you are only starting to understand. It, and you need to walk that path too. So, so in every pain, right? So I, I'm not, I never say to people you wanna wipe your past, right? Every single piece of pain you have in healed form becomes one of your greatest powers in healed form. Right. So our dark energy, our wounds, whatever you want to call it, right, in unhealed, unaware, you know, form is very damaging to ourself, our relations, our life, the people around us. Right. But I go, I say to people, you don't want to wipe all that away because in that is also your potential. But it becomes your potential when it's in healed form.. And so that's the journey, right? And so I truly believe that. And so in, in, you know, in, in all the, you know, in all the, you know, the tragedy that I've had in my life or the, you know, the, the few tragedies, you know, that I live with that, you know, don't get any easier to live with at all any day, but I do the work so that But what it is, is that it's the love, it's in healed form because then it becomes my greatest power to walk my path of personal meaning.
John Milham (Host) · 59:37
Wow. That's, um, a wonderful thought to take away and, uh, so much richness, so much, uh, of interest, Gina, that you've opened up just the beginning of, right? So I look forward to having further conversations maybe down the track where we explore, you know, new transitions and new ideas. But today has been amazing. Thank you so much for sharing some really cool ideas. And of course, thank you for the work you do turning, you know, your personal meaning into support and care for others. I love it.
Gina McClement (Guest) · 1:00:14
Thank you so much for having me, John. It's all Always a pleasure. No doubt we'll talk more.
John Milham (Host) · 1:00:19
You look forward to it. All the best. Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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