Nigel Allsopp
A former military dog handler spent 14 years discovering what governments forgot: the millions of animals who served in war and never came home.
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Nigel Allsopp grew up on a small farm in New Zealand, surrounded by animals. When he wanted to own a farm of his own but couldn't afford one, he joined the New Zealand Defence Force as a military working dog handler. For 14 or 15 years, he worked with explosive and narcotic detection dogs, learning firsthand what their noses could do: detect individual scents within a mixture, sense a man's heartbeat over 100 metres away, and see through layers of deliberate deception. Dogs, he discovered, have olfactory glands the size of a king-size bed sheet compared to the postage-stamp size of a human's.
But it was a piece of history that fractured his purpose. Nigel learned that 135,000 horses left Australia in World War I and only one came home. All 11 dogs sent to Vietnam were left on enemy shores. Nine million animals died in World War I and received no recognition. He founded the Australian War Animal Memorial Organisation to change that. He placed bronze plaques honouring pigeons in Caboolture and the Australian War Memorial. He spearheaded the purple poppy campaign, spending years securing permission from military organisations across multiple countries to use the symbol on War and Service Animal Day, 24 February, to honour four-legged diggers alongside the red poppy for human soldiers.
Nigel has written 14 books documenting these stories. He has travelled to Ukraine three times to rescue animals from shelled areas and deliver long-term aid like generators, veterinary equipment, and training for students. He believes animals hold a lesson for humanity: they are non-judgmental, loyal, and capable of unconditional love. If people could be more like dogs, he says, the world would be better.
“Australia and most countries in the world used to have a very bad reputation, I think you could say. For not bringing our animals home. For example, 135,000 whaler horses left our shores for overseas service in World War I. Only one of them was repatriated.”
“The more I know humans, the more I love my dog. If a lot of people could be more like a dog, the world would be a lot better place. They're not judgmental. They don't care if you're Japanese, Chinese, a Māori, a person from India, Ukrainian, a Scotsman. They're non-judgmental. They give you unconditional love.”
“A dog reminds them a little bit of their own pets at home. So they're good for morale as well as physically doing a job. They help with the stress and strains of war, you know, just the tactile touch of being.”
The hero, today
Nigel left a farm-focused childhood and 14-15 years as a military working dog handler because he wanted to work with animals and could not afford to own a farm. The olfactory capability of dogs is so powerful that they can detect individual scents within a mixture, where humans perceive only one blended smell. Nigel founded the Australian War Animal Memorial Organisation because history had largely overlooked the contributions and sacrifices of animals in war, particularly the 135,000 horses sent from Australia in World War I with almost none brought home. The purple poppy, worn on 24 February as War and Service Animal Day, honours four-legged diggers alongside the red poppy for human soldiers, and Nigel worked for years to secure permission from military organisations across multiple countries to use this symbol. Nigel's work in Ukraine focuses on long-term practical aid like equipment, generators, and veterinary training for students rather than short-term supplies, because sustainable change requires building capability, not just delivering temporary relief. Nigel believes that if people could be more like dogs, non-judgmental, loyal, and capable of unconditional love, the world would be a better place.
Yes. Nigel Allsopp is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Nigel left a farm-focused childhood and 14-15 years as a military working dog handler because he wanted to work with animals and could not afford to own a farm.
The olfactory capability of dogs is so powerful that they can detect individual scents within a mixture, where humans perceive only one blended smell.
Nigel founded the Australian War Animal Memorial Organisation because history had largely overlooked the contributions and sacrifices of animals in war, particularly the 135,000 horses sent from Australia in World War I with almost none brought home.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 00:01
Welcome to another episode of Animals and Us, where we explore and honor the awesomeness of animals and our relationships with them. Today we're joined by Nigel Alsop, an international expert on animals in war. Nigel served in both the New Zealand and Australian military forces, worked as a police dog handler, and is the author of 14 books. He's also the founder of the Australian War Animal Memorial Organization and was named the 2017 Racel Anzac of the Year for his outstanding service and advocacy. Nigel has made it his life's mission to honor the animals who served alongside humans in conflict, from pigeons and camels to donkeys, horses, and dogs. Today he shares his incredible journey and the stories of some of history's most under-recognized war heroes. Hello Nigel, and welcome to Animals and Us.
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 01:03
Yeah, thank you.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 01:05
Thank you for your time. I'm so looking forward to learning about your subject, animals in war, because it seems to be such an under-recognized subject. Nigel, it's such a vast subject as well, and it's therefore difficult to know where to start. But can we start perhaps at the beginning with your childhood and how animals— the role that animals played in your childhood?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 01:28
I was raised on a small holding farm. My parents had sort of pigs and chickens and a few sheep and that, basically what you'd call a weekend farmer. You know, my dad had a regular job and apart from that, so I was always surrounded by animals. And I've always, apart from agricultural animals, there were always sort of animals like rabbits and even mice and and other animals that were native animals that were injured, and I used to care for them. So I had a bit of a zoo going in, in my dad's barn. Uh, so yeah, they've sort of entered my life at a very, um, early age, you know.
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The purple poppy, worn on 24 February as War and Service Animal Day, honours four-legged diggers alongside the red poppy for human soldiers, and Nigel worked for years to secure permission from military organisations across multiple countries to use this symbol.
This conversation includes growing up surrounded by animals, joining the military to work with dogs, the precision of a dog's nose, the animals left behind after war, dogs as comfort in the trenches and founding the war animal memorial.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 02:11
And that was in New Zealand, wasn't it? Your childhood in New Zealand?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 02:14
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Uh, to start with, and, uh, still, still got a bit of a menagerie even today in my own backyard.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 02:22
So in, um, in Australia. And as a young man, you, you joined the military in New Zealand. So what led you to join the military, and what was, what was that like for you?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 02:35
Well, um, strangely enough, my, my sort of agricultural background— I always wanted to be a farmer, you know. And, and the bottom line was that in those days, if perhaps your father didn't own one and you didn't inherit it, you probably wouldn't get one because they were very expensive. And, and obviously they still are today. So I loved animals and I looked around initially for jobs that I could work with animals. And one that I noticed was available was a military working dog handler in the Defence Force. So I joined and then after a period of training, I became an operational military working dog handler, which I was for about 14 or 15 years consecutively, rising through the ranks and working with general duties dogs, narcotic detection dogs, explosive detection dogs, and ultimately I became a military working dog trainer.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 03:31
And what was that like, working with the military dogs?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 03:35
Yeah, look, it had its boring points and it had its exciting points, you know, um, sort of, um, obviously operational, but it's very demanding, um, and very stressful perhaps when you're looking for explosives. Uh, the, um, civil authorities in those days didn't actually have explosive detection dogs like the police do today. And so the military was often used. And, you know, we literally worked slightly disguised and just plain blue overalls, not to panic people when we used to search international airports, aircraft, embassies that all had bomb threats. It's quite surprising how much work was— is undertaken by the Defence Force in those roles.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 04:25
Were there any times, any occasions when the dog's skills surprised you?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 04:31
Oh look, they always do, and they— and I guess they still do. Um, they're a marvelous, um, sort of a— I, I'm reluctant to call them a machine, but basically the olfactory, uh, syndrome system is so powerful compared to ours. That's why we, you know, still use dogs today to detect things. I mean, in very simplistic terms, if you pulled out as a human your olfactory scent glands out of your nose, it would be about the size of a postage stamp. If you pulled them out of a dog, it would be the size of a king-size bed sheet. So they can literally detect things in one part in a million. So what does that really mean for, say, perhaps some of the younger listeners? It means if you come home one day and mum's cooking a beautiful stew, and you smell that odor and it smells wonderful. For a dog, it can smell the salt, the pepper, the potatoes, the gravy, the onions, the meat, the carrots, everything individually, as well as the mass smell. So they have an amazing scent capability. And yeah, and so they amazed me and continue to do so, what they can detect, you know, they can detect a man's heartbeat over 100 meters away if he's hiding. As far as the police dogs are concerned, you know, they can detect when people try and disguise, you know, narcotics or explosives. They can detect through layers and layers of what I would call, you know, people trying to hide things, distractions. It doesn't fool a dog.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 06:12
And Nigel, what triggered your passion for the subject of animals in war? I guess those military dogs were the, were the first step. And what actually inspired your passion? Was there a particular turning point or experience?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 06:29
No, but in a way, yeah, yes and no. Like, first of all, um, uh, Australia and, and most countries in the world, uh, used to have a very bad reputation, I, I think you could say. For not bringing our animals home. For example, 135,000 whaler horses left our shores for overseas service in World War I. Only one of them was repatriated. Up until 1991 was the first time the Defence Department brought back military working dogs from overseas operations. Perhaps rather than talk about two back history, some of your listeners would still be alive, obviously, today understanding the Vietnam War. And, you know, all 11 dogs that we sent to Vietnam all went repatriated back to Australia. They were left on our enemy shores. So that was certainly part of the stimulation. And overall, history has really, in many cases, up until the last, say, 20 years, when I wrote one of my first books, had sort of skipped over the history of the contributions to war animals have. And in no way am I therefore trying to emulate the use of animals in war. What I'm saying is they were part of war, particularly right up to World War II, and even as I've described Vietnam and Somalia and places like that. Um, until recent times, uh, in Afghanistan, and even today, they— but they, they work alongside soldiers, and, uh, they go through the same problems, the same sacrifices, etc., and they should be recognized for that.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 08:23
Yes. As a historian, have you encountered stories, journals of the, the soldiers who have who had a relationship with the animals, like the horses or, or, or dogs, and, and left them behind, and described what that experience was like for them?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 08:42
Yeah, very much so. Uh, one of the books I've, I've published is, uh, by, um, is called Anzac, uh, Mascot Heroes, and, uh, that's full of chapters of, uh, of animals that, um, were companionship. You got to remember, it's not just perhaps an animal— we'll say in this case a dog that is, um, you know, helping directly by detecting something or, you know, biting an offender. But it's also the companionship they have in our mental health. Um, you know, a lot of people are overseas and, uh, you know, a dog reminds them— a military dog reminds them a little bit of their own pets at home. So they're good for morale as well as physically doing a job. They help with the stress and strains of, uh, of war, you know, just the tactile touch of being— I used to have people, you know, uh, that weren't dog handlers just coming up asking, can I have a cuddle of your dog? Uh, because they miss their own dog at home, or their own, you know, it reminds them of Australia or New Zealand respectively, whichever armed forces I was in at the time. I've served in both. So, uh, yeah, so they do a lot of physical and mental health, uh, good for the soldiers in situ.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 10:05
Nigel, I'm just getting off the subject a little bit, but what did happen to the thousands of horses that were sent over from Australia and New Zealand in World War I?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 10:15
Yeah, look, there was a Banjo Paterson poem which was quite popular about how soldiers used to go and shoot their horses rather than, you know, give them to the local population. That was exceedingly exaggerated. Most horses, I mean, yes, a smaller percentage of soldiers did that, but most of the horses were sent from— Australian horses were sent via the British Army to the Indian Army as remounts. Some of the draft animals, the heavier horses, were given away to farmers in France and Belgium, for example, because their horses were killed during the war and the farmers needed them. So, you know, perhaps some were indeed killed, but a lot were repatriated, I'm glad to say anyway.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 11:14
Nigel, you founded the Australian War Animal Memorial Organisation. Can you tell us about the mission of the organisation and what you actually do?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 11:25
Sure. Look, it was initially set up for the purpose of— I guess it's in the title, isn't it— to make memorials, memorial plaques or bronze statues to honor the animals that, you know, served our nation. And for that aim, we established— one of the initial ones we did was establishing the official Australian War Animal Memorial in Poziers, France. Which if anyone's going out that way can see today, it's a bronze horse and a bronze dog with the appropriate plaques just honoring the 9 million. It's quite a staggering number, isn't it? Honoring the 9 million animals that served in World War I that were killed, not just from Australia, obviously from all around the world and in both sides of the conflict too. So an amazing amount of animals ranging from pigeons to dogs to predominantly equines, horses such as mules, donkeys, of course, played a very huge role. Perhaps mules and donkeys are very much the unsung heroes of war, carrying everything back from the wounded to toilet paper and food to the front. We're all familiar in Australia with Simpson and his donkey, but the reality is that's just one man and and a couple of donkeys. There were tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of donkeys and mules used in World War I for very similar logistical purposes. And I think one of the biggest unsung heroes still today was the pigeon, the messenger pigeon. But we've got to remember, and it's probably hard for some of your younger listeners to sort of contemplate life without their mobile phone. But you've got to remember, in those days, a pigeon was the only way to get a message most of the time from the front lines to the generals in the rear lines. I mean, even during World War I, where radios were present, they were at their infancy. And a lot of them were destroyed by field artillery and bombardment. They still used a lot in World War I human runners, you know, for messengers, but that was dangerous. So they converted to pigeons and the odd messenger dog as well. So, you know, Australia, even in World War II, had over 25,000 operational pigeons in Kokoda and other places, but you hardly ever heard of their exploits and how many lives they would have saved by getting the messages across. So I guess of all the, you know, the animals I've just explained, you know, probably the mule, big unsung hero, and certainly a pigeon, big unsung hero. Everyone sees war movies and we see, you know, horses, either cavalry horses in other armed forces, but in ours, obviously, we had— ours were mounted infantry. You know, you see the flash horses charging in the movies of the Charge of Beersheba. But what you probably don't see are the 3,000 or 4,000 heavy horses, mules, donkeys, and camels that carried all the equipment to enable those 800 horses to do the Charge of Beersheba.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 14:46
Have you made any memorials to honor the pigeons?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 14:51
Yeah, uh, in fact, um, there's a beautiful, uh, one we put in Caboolture in Queensland in the historical village. That was actually Australia's very first, uh, bronze plaque to honor pigeons. And, uh, the Australian War Memorial in Canberra has also— last year I was privileged to, help open it up, um, after a suggestion was made by myself and the Pigeon Association of Australia. Um, it was a beautiful bronze plaque honoring the deeds of pigeons in war at the AWM.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 15:24
Nigel, I've been reading about some of your many achievements through your organization. Are there any achievements that stand out for you that you're particularly proud of?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 15:36
Yeah, look, um, I, I guess our work currently and in the last 2 years in Ukraine, um, obviously there's— we do domestic work, and, uh, I'll talk about that in a moment. Apart from plaques, obviously we, we sponsor a lot of veteran dogs in particular that have retired from the armed forces because sadly the government, uh, and that's not just the armed forces, I mean the police as well. We, we help pay veterinary bills, um, etc., for retired, uh, police and, and military dogs, uh, because basically the DVA and the government, once they're retired, have nothing to do with them, uh, financially, unlike human veterans. But I guess for our work in Ukraine is pretty important where we send over $1.5 billion worth of aid last year to them. Myself and several other of our AWMO colleagues have actually been there 3 times, so we've been directly rescuing animals ranging from wildlife, zoo animals, to domestic cats from rubble and sort of shelled areas and taking them back to safety in the back part of the country. Although sadly, there's really no safe part of that country thanks to Russian drones, etc., hitting randomly anywhere. So yeah, we're quite proud of the work we do in Ukraine still to this day. And on a domestic front, children are very important as far as our charity organization is concerned in relation to educating them for the next generation, but also to be doing— making them aware of the deeds and sacrifices of animals and educating how important animals in general are in society, such as, um, PTSD dogs, uh, dogs for the hearing impaired, dogs for the vision impaired, and things like that. Um, so one of the biggest things we've recently done is we've established a— what we call a scented garden in, in Queensland, in one of the, um, uh, schools here in Brisbane that specializes in special needs and vision impaired children. So we've made full-scale bronze cast figures of various animals ranging from a horse to a dog to a frog to a lizard, etc., and many more. And the kids— and we've planted certain scented flowers around them. For example, one is lavender. And so the children can— are obviously vision impaired. They, they smell the flower. They then— a lot of the kids in this particular school have live-in students, and, you know, they have a range, free range of the garden. They smell the flowers. They then locate the animal. They can then go to their library and look up a book which we have produced about that animal, and we've produced it in Braille. And Cherry's paid for all that process. And so the— and then they have— so they cover tactile touch, odour, and they can read about it and learn about different animals in Australia, both not just service animals, of course, but, you know, wildlife. We have one of the animals is a kangaroo, another one is a platypus, for example. So they learn by their senses, even though they can't see them. Wonderful.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 19:15
It would be wonderful also to see the subject of war animals being introduced into school curriculums so they could be— animals could be honored from—
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 19:25
by, by absolutely a young age. Yeah, absolutely.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 19:30
Nigel, you spearheaded the campaign to have a National War Animal Day in Australia and New Zealand. Can you tell us about Purple Poppy Day and how, how the public can get involved?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 19:44
Sure. Well, first of all, it's the 24th of February every year, is War and Service Animal Day. Since, uh, recently we've incorporated service animals as well as war animals. Um, and, uh, look, it's just a day that we wear a purple poppy. As you know, Anzac Day, one wears a red poppy, and same with the 11th of November, Remembrance Day, you wear a red poppy to rightly honor the deeds and sacrifices of our two-legged diggers. However, we've, uh, over many years— it's, it's— this is not a process that even though it's reasonably happened the last 2 or 3 years, I started this campaign, uh, in the UK and other countries to get permission from companies like the RSL, the British Legion, uh, the US, uh, Patriots Legion, the New Zealand RSA, etc., as well as our own RSL. It's been a long process, but We now have a purple poppy and permission to use it to honor the deeds and sacrifices of four-legged diggers. So you of course can wear a purple poppy on Anzac Day and Remembrance Day. But what we firmly ask people to do is don't wear one just by itself. Wear a red poppy and a purple poppy if you want to honor the animals, but always remember the red poppy first and foremost to honor our two-legged soldiers. And look, the 24th of February, we encourage people to wear a purple poppy, engage in people if they ask, you know, what the hell is that? You can let people know what it is. You can go to our website, it has a full sort of history of what they mean. And it's just, as I said before, to honor the deeds and sacrifices and to recognize that animals have served our nation, you know, from the early days of a sheepdog and to a stockman's horse, right up to a police dog that's conducting anti-terrorist work at the airport as we speak.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 21:41
Wonderful. I always make a point of going to a dawn service, Anzac Day dawn service, and I find it so disappointing that everyone else is acknowledged in the services except for animals. So next time I'll make sure that I have it. I'll be wearing a purple poppy next Anzac Day.
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 22:04
Yeah, look, and a big call out to everyone watching this, you know, I approached my own RSL and asked them if I say something. And every year they asked me to say a few words. I mean, I would encourage everybody that's listening to go to their local RSL. Most RSLs in Queensland and, and, uh, and other states in Australia, you know, um, recognize the purple poppy and they even sell them. So, you know, just ask your local RSL if you're that, uh, passionate about it, um, to if you could, uh, say something during a ceremony. It should be not a problem.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 22:39
Yeah, yeah, great, great idea. Thank you. And Nigel, you've written 14 books about war and war animals. Can you— would you like to share some of the key facts that perhaps people wouldn't know about war animals?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 22:55
Yeah, look, there's a lot of animals, but perhaps people don't realize, you know, that were, you know, not just companions such as cats. I mean, people think of cats, you know, and, oh, what have they got to do with war animals? Most people would understand that navies used to have cats in ships, you know, to obviously keep away vermin, you know, rats and mice and stuff like that, chewing ropes and during sail days, and also obviously to detect the rations, I guess. But, you know, even in World War I, a lot of cats were quite common in the trenches to get rid of the rats as well. They— cats also sought out human companionship in war zones for their own comfort, I guess. But they provide— what do they provide to the soldiers? Well, a feeling of home, something to cuddle warm, a bit of comfort. But there were other animals that have gone by the wayside because I guess people think they were just insects or insignificant. For example, it was a well-known fact that they used to put slugs just the common garden slug on, on, in some trenches. And slugs were very sensitive to gas irritating their skin. And you would have slugs on the sandbags of the trenches. And if you were gassed, you would see these animals, you know, start to be affected, curl up. And that was time to sound the alarm and put your gas mask on. Canaries were used traditionally down the mines by miners in the civil capacity to detect gas leaks, etc., or the lack of oxygen, where they did it by falling off the perch and then everyone ran out. Well, the same animals were used in tunnels in World War I, and other animals perhaps that are less sort of known in that genre as well. You know, were, were just like I say, everyday sort of companion animals. They also had agricultural animals that, such as goats and sheep, that provided fresh milk to our soldiers, you know, cows as well. And so yeah, there's lots of domestic and agricultural animals that perhaps slipped by the, the history books as well.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 25:21
Nigel, you must know hundreds of war animal stories. Would you like to share one or two that have particularly touched your heart?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 25:31
Yeah, well, like you say, there is so many, but, um, I, I guess, you know, I'll use a couple of very brief examples rather than one long-winded one. You know, pigeons in World War II in Australia— one particular pigeon won the Dickens Medal, which is the equivalent of the VC for animals. You know, that animal was in a container on a watercraft, on a ship that was sailing about 45 kilometers off the coast of Papua New Guinea. It was— hit a reef and was sinking. There were about 400 soldiers on board as well as stores. This pigeon was released. They— don't forget, pigeons are one of the fastest fliers in the world, apart from only beaten really by the peregrine falcon. They can you know, literally fly about 100 kilometers an hour. This pigeon remarkably made it back to the headquarters in about 45 minutes, whereas the rescue boat was then able to rescue all the soldiers that may have drowned. So that's pretty impressive, you know, particularly when you see people nowadays look at pigeon— pigeons— and almost with disdain call them rats on wings, you know, and they poop on you. Well, they're actually— without them, many soldiers would have died in World War I and World War II. They've got a lot to be thanked for. And look, there are many heartwarming stories. I think one in particular I think is to mention is Toby, or Toby as it's sometimes pronounced. I won't tell you what he is until the end, but you might get a clue when I tell you He's still alive today. He's the longest living mascot in the world. And he was in Gallipoli. He's now currently 200 years old and he's a tortoise, of course. Yeah, yeah. And still alive today in Christchurch in New Zealand. In fact, he was an Anzac animal, but a New Zealander. Took him home. So it's— I think that's a great story. And look, just one story about a Ukraine, uh, animal too. There's a, a small little fox terrier, um, and again, I've, I've, uh, written— I'll just move— I've written, I've written a book about it myself, and, uh, it's been produced in, uh, English and Ukrainian and in Braille, um, and I know probably might not be able to see it.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 28:10
Um, sweet Jack Russell.
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 28:12
It's a little hip— yeah, it's a Jack Russell, and he's a mine detection dog. And, um, this dog has found something like 700 mines and explosives and booby traps, um, that were left behind by the Russians when, uh, you know, they were pushed back. So yeah, he, he's a great, uh, Patron, as his name is, um, in, uh In Ukrainian, that means ammo. He's an explosive detection dog. And he does amazing services and has probably saved thousands of lives. In fact, he was recognized by the President of Ukraine and given a Hero War Medal last year. So it's, you know, big and small animals have contributed.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 29:01
Amazing. And you've just, you have touched on animals used in modern warfare. Like, like that little Jack Russell. Any other, other types of animals aside from dogs that are used currently?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 29:16
Look, the— yeah, look, there are still some equines, horses, used in modern warfare. Um, I mean, I think there was a movie on, uh, that's like, uh, that starred, um, Chris Hemsworth, um, about 12 horsemen in Afghanistan. They're still used in mountainous areas. Mules and donkeys are still used by many armed forces such as India and Pakistan. In the mountainous terrain. You know, even here in Australia, we have several animals that are mascots. So they do perform a military function as a regimental mascot, for a start. But it is predominantly, I have to say, dogs that are perhaps— I wouldn't call them the modern animal, but, you know, that are still being used today and probably are likely to be continued to use in the unforeseeable future. And for the reason that, you know, we're still trying to invent something to replace them. Hmm.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 30:19
And Nigel, as I mentioned before, you've written 14 books, including, including children's books. Is there one particular book that you could recommend for, for the audience if they're interested in learning more about animals in war? Is there one that stands out?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 30:36
Look, one sort of book is called Smokey, Smokey the War Dog. It was a little 4-pound Cairn Terrier in World War II, born in Queensland. And, um, uh, but, uh, it was— I won't spoil the story, but it ended up in the hands of a friend of mine actually called Bill Wynne. Now Bill sadly died, uh, just a few months ago, uh, just slightly before his 100th birthday. I had the privilege of meeting him personally several times, and he asked me to write a book on his Australian dog. He was an American serviceman. This Smokey used to travel from Brisbane because Bill was part of General McCarthy's headquarters staff, and he traveled all across the Southwest Pacific with Bill. He is recognized in the Guinness Book of Records. Your, your readers, listeners, I should say, could look Smokey the War Dog up. He is recognized as the world's first post-traumatic stress dog. In 1942, you know, he was running around what is now the Royal Brisbane Women's Hospital, but at the time was the Army-Navy Hospital in Brisbane. And the— a young lieutenant, sort of a naval medical officer, noticed how soldiers reacted positively when the dog was in the ward. He ended up being in the ward because Bill got sick himself, so he had permission to do that. And that lieutenant By the way, was Lieutenant Mayo, now famous for the Mayo Clinics in the United States, of course, and hospitals are named after him. But he was stationed obviously in Brisbane in World War II as a naval doctor. So yeah, it's a great story of the travels of this dog. There's an adult book version of it which, you know, explains everything. And then there's a, you know, about a 20-page children's book illustrated and cartoons of what the dog did as well.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 32:55
And what's that book called again, Nigel?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 32:57
Smokey the War Dog.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 32:59
And Nigel, how do children typically respond to stories of war animals?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 33:07
Yes, not in the war sense. You know, none of our books are made to glorify the use of animals in war, I must fervently sort of state. We're just honouring the fact that they did serve, you know. Uh, you know, I for one would love to see, uh, no military working dogs ever going to war, just like we wouldn't want to see our children or our grandchildren go to war. So, you know, but all we're doing is they did go, uh, so this is the history lesson, um, and, and here's what they did. And a lot of the stories are quite heartwarming too. Obviously in the children's book we don't sort of put some of the tragedies that happened to animals, you know. Uh, um, but, you know, there's a lot of great, you know, warm stories. Um, and I think people— well, you know, there's not many families in Australia, uh, that don't have some form of pet, you know. Uh, you know, they— some people refer, you know, to their dog or their cat as their fur babies, don't they? You know, they're fur kids. And you know, we have a fairly big population of over 7.7 million dogs and cats in Australia, and that's not counting birds and reptiles and other animals that people have. So we are in Australia, um, it's like animals aren't disconnected to our society. There are some countries in the world, for example, that, you know, they don't really have pets. Um, uh, and, um, Ukraine is a country that probably has far more pets than we do. People love them, you know. Particularly cats. There's a huge population, like in the millions, of cats in Ukraine because a lot of people live in the old previous Soviet-style, you know, accommodation, you know, you know, multi-story buildings. And big dogs aren't practical. So a lot of people have either cats or small dogs. So they're a big part of our life, animals. And I think our children, you know, can— they have probably got a pet at home and they can relate to a pet. And they're interested to see what— how pets work as well, you know, and what they've done for society and our nation.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 35:22
Nigel, you did mention before your work in Ukraine. You've been in Ukraine 3 times, I think you said, during the war, and you've been helping animals there. What was that like for you, the experience of helping animals in war-torn region?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 35:38
Yeah, look, it's, it's, uh, obviously it's a charity, a whammo. It's, it's what we do. And the other staff, uh, you know, uh, Alan, Peter, and Barry that, uh, have been with me respectively a couple of times, um, you know, these blokes, uh, are like me. They, they're all ex-members of the armed forces. All of us are. So we do understand the risk factor. We all have families, you know, uh, children and grandchildren. So, you know, we're not cowboys, uh, You know, we understand the risks and we're fortunate to all of us, I guess, to be married to understanding wives that allow us to do things like that. But they understand too, you know, it's a— we may be slightly at risk, but what we're trying to do, I think it's worthwhile trying to save the animals. I mean, there's plenty of aid companies over there, you know, that are helping humans, and rightly so. But we were the only one from Australia. AWAMO is the only charity in Australia that works up in Ukraine.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 36:41
So how can people in the audience are listening and want to support your efforts in helping animals in Ukraine, how can they support or donate?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 36:51
Yeah, look, on our webpage we have awamo.org.au. We have a full webpage with the donation addresses. You'll see addresses Dr. Harry Cooper, the Prime Minister, or at least the previous one, and, uh, and also, uh, uh, her, the late Her Majesty the Queen, uh, talk about, uh, the work that AWAMO does. Um, and, uh, you'll see all our references and what we do. What we're trying to do is save up money via donations to, to buy in Poland, um, uh, an ambulance which we can do up for as an animal ambulance. And then myself or one of our staff members will drive it over to deliver it to Ukraine, to the Ukraine Veterinary University, which will then use it with their students, veterinary students, whom, by the way, we trained about 600 of them in animal first aid last year, year 3 students. And we took CPR mannequins up from Australia equipment, as in canine CPR mannequins and a whole lot of equipment that we donated was for the Lviv University, and they're going to use it in the field. So it's a long— it's a legacy thing, you know, as opposed— yes, we, we need your money, but what we're using it for is for a long term. Again, not just buying, say, food that disappears after a week. It's a bit like, if I can use the analogy, you know, if you've got a starving fisherman, rather than give him something to eat, you're probably better off buying him a fishing rod and teaching them how to fish. And that's what we're trying to do with the, uh, the equipment we send up. We send generators, uh, we send— rather than say medication, which is pretty hard to get in there anyway, uh, and, and long-term things, you know, that, um, you know, it's winter there, for example, you know, can get to -20 degrees below zero. So we sent a lot of horse blankets, up, you know, and things like that. So yeah, we try and do practical stuff. But look, the other thing is, if you buy a purple poppy from AWAMO, we have a purple and a red poppy intertwined, and it's called We Serve Together. And that's unique only to us, uh, if it's AWAMO. If it's not us, it's some other company, overseas company, trying to jump on the bandwagon like they do. But the funds, the profits that we make from that, 100% of the profits— obviously we've got to buy them ourselves in the first place, but 100% of the profit goes to the Ukraine program. Uh, and yeah, so I'd encourage people to look at our webpage or our Facebook, AWAMO. I think you have to type out the full name for Facebook, the Australian War Animal Memorial Organization. What a mouthful. Um, and Yeah, and, uh, you'll see what we do. We update them regularly. And, and yeah, please, uh, if you can donate to our, to our fund, and, um, you know, even a gold coin, uh, you know, if we get enough people doing it, we can achieve our goal of buying this van. And, uh, you know, they probably cost around about the €20,000 to €25,000, so that's about $40,000. So it's not like, you know, it's an impossible amount of money to raise. You know, we're not after a million dollars, but you know, it's, um, you know, it's a reasonable amount of money which is achievable. Yeah. And, and every cent you get, you can say to yourself, well, hey, uh, you know, I've helped contribute to the, you know, the rescue of animals in Ukraine.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 40:36
Great. So finally, Nigel, this journey that you have been on with military life, police life, and your expertise in animals in What has it taught you about humans?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 40:50
I could, I could make a very simple statement, but I will explain probably, you know, the more I— I've heard it several times— the more I know humans, the more I love my dog. That's probably in a nutshell. But, you know, without sounding a bit corny either, if a lot of people could be more like a dog or your favorite pet, the world would be a lot better place, you know. They're not judgmental. They don't care if you're Japanese, Chinese, uh, you know, um, a Māori, uh, a person from India, uh, you know, Ukrainian, a Scotsman, you know, whatever. They're non-judgmental. Um, they take you at face value. They give you unconditional love. Um, and, and they're usually loyal, you know. Um, you know, I will say I've got a beautiful cat too, as well as a dog. And the two differences I must say Uh, you know, um, uh, my dog, uh, you know, is my pet. My cat allows me to be its human pet, you know. That's about the difference. But, uh, yeah, they all give aid, comfort, you know, uh, to people in bad times and, uh, and good times. And yeah, absolutely, I'd encourage everyone in the world to have a pet. Uh, the only thing I would say, you know, be— if you are going to get a pet you know, maybe give consideration to getting one from, uh, you know, one of the several pounds that are around the place, as opposed to, you know, um, you know, paying a lot of money for one. I'm not bagging that at all, and you know what, uh, but if you can possibly give a dog a second home or a cat a second home from one of the, you know, the welfare centers, or, you know, ranging from, I guess, Animal Welfare to the RSPCA and many, many more organizations that do the same, you know, that's the best option for a start.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 42:47
Yeah, rescue an animal. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And Nigel, are donations to your organization, are they tax deductible?
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 42:57
Yeah, we are registered non-for-profit charity, so I think anything more than $2, I think, uh, don't quote me on the exact amount, you can claim on tax.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 43:07
Yeah, Nigel, yeah, thank you very much, and congratulations on all the work and raising awareness about animals in war and all the work that you continue to help awareness and animal welfare. Sure.
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 43:21
No, thank you for the opportunity to speak to your listeners. Thank you.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 43:26
Thank you. Follow the sun.
Nigel Allsopp (Guest) · 43:29
Animals and Us is a production of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Xavier Rudd for his permission to use Follow the Sun as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time. Time.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 44:07
Brand new moon, brand new sun.
You don't have to be in crisis to call.
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