Michael Stewart · 67 min
A boy who fished with his grandfather in the Rhodesian highlands became an 18-year-old officer leading men through a brutal guerrilla war, and somehow held onto his humanity.
Hear this story
Michael Stewart grew up fishing and riding horses in the Rhodesian highlands, the son of a fanatical trout fisherman and a mother stretched thin between four daughters and one restless boy. His childhood was freedom itself, running wild across mountains and farmland. But his father's temper sent him climbing into the avocado tree at night, waiting for safety to return. At twelve, Michael was shipped to boarding school, a strict military institution 300 kilometres away. The abandonment cut deep, but it taught him something that would save his life: how to stand alone.
By eighteen, Michael was an officer in the Rhodesian war, leading forty-five men through counterinsurgency operations in the bush. He learned to control fear the way he controlled his body on a motorbike or in a microlight, not by conquering it, but by accepting it as part of the terrain. He saw atrocities that broke something in him. He killed. He buried friends. When he came home to university, he couldn't sit in a classroom. He went back to the war until 1980.
What followed was a pattern that would define decades: Michael chasing the adrenaline he'd known in combat through kayaking, flying, extreme motorcycling. Nothing matched it. He watched Mugabe dismantle the country he loved, watched South Africa turn violent, realised he couldn't raise his three sons in that world. In 2000, he left Africa not for himself but for them. It was the hardest and most necessary decision he ever made.
“I only believe that people that aren't affected by the killing are either psychopaths or they don't have any empathy whatsoever. And if you do have compassion and empathy it affects you terribly.”
“It gave you um abandonment issues and and self worth as well because you always think, well, what did I do wrong to deserve that?”
“The decision to come to Australia was solely for my kids. That was it. If I didn't have kids, I would never have come over here. I'd still be back there.”
The hero, today
Michael's childhood freedom in Rhodesia, riding horses, fishing, and running wild, shaped his comfort with risk and adventure in ways that later defined how he led men in war. Boarding school at age 12 left Michael with abandonment wounds but also taught him the independence that kept him alive when he became an officer at eighteen, leading from the front without expecting help. Michael learned to control fear by accepting it the same way he accepted physical danger on a motorbike or microlight, not by conquering it but by learning to live inside it. The adrenaline rush of combat became a drug Michael has spent decades trying to replicate through extreme activities like kayaking, flying, and motorcycling, none of which match the intensity of war. Michael left Africa not because he wanted to, but because his three sons needed safety and opportunity, a choice he sees as both heartbreaking and correct. Michael's faith in God has anchored him through war, near-death experiences, and displacement, though he avoids organized religion because he has seen how people corrupt God's work.
Yes. Michael Stewart is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Michael's childhood freedom in Rhodesia, riding horses, fishing, and running wild, shaped his comfort with risk and adventure in ways that later defined how he led men in war.
Boarding school at age 12 left Michael with abandonment wounds but also taught him the independence that kept him alive when he became an officer at eighteen, leading from the front without expecting help.
Michael learned to control fear by accepting it the same way he accepted physical danger on a motorbike or microlight, not by conquering it but by learning to live inside it.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 00:06
Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 00:19
Today Natalie Stockdale is in conversation with Michael Stewart. This part 1 of 2 episodes is the story of a boy who grew up in Africa fishing with his grandfather and then becoming a teen a teenage officer leading men in a brutal war and somehow keeping his humanity. We'll hear about incredible survival amidst the horrors of war and a violent society. He describes his coping strategies, including his faith and belief in God, and finally farewelling a continent he dearly loved. We hope you enjoy Michael's story. Hello, Mike, and welcome to Kintsugi Heroes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 01:00
Hi.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 01:01
Thanks very much for joining us. I'm really looking forward to hearing more details about your fascinating story. Can we start, Mike, with the beginning and your childhood in what was then called Rhodesia?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 01:16
Sure. So parents, yeah, they, um, after the Second World War They moved, my mother moved with her father and her two sisters, and my father was a bachelor and he moved out from Scotland. And he fought, well, both my grandfather and my father both fought the Second World War. Came back to post-war UK and didn't like it. So they decided to try their luck elsewhere and they moved to Rhodesia and my parents met there and obviously, you know, 4 sisters and 1 brother later. That was a great time. My earliest memories are I grew up in a place called Troutbeck, which is up in the eastern highlands of Inyanga. It was a hotel and a sort of like hobby farm and trout fishing, lots of trout fishing. So my father was a fanatical trout fisherman and golfer. And so we grew up running wild around the mountains and diving for golf balls and fishing and, you know, doing all the livestock work. You know, we had a dairy, so So I did all of that and all the sheep and chickens and horse riding. I was riding from about 5 years old. So I used to take all the guests on pony treks and then got shifted off to boarding school. And I think it was about '64, just after UDI, when independence was declared. Ian Smith's government, who was our Prime Minister right up until the end. We went against Britain because they decided to just hand us over to whoever. And, you know, people had invested their whole lives in that place, and the majority of people didn't want some sort of black nationalist communist-led movement coming in, and there was the big spread of communism coming down through Africa. It had happened in Kenya and Tanzania and later in Mozambique, Angola, and our country voted no. And so we ended up moving to Salisbury because it was safer. And, you know, had a bit of time in a day school there, but then was shipped off to boarding school again at the other end of the country and did that until I was 17, I think.
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The adrenaline rush of combat became a drug Michael has spent decades trying to replicate through extreme activities like kayaking, flying, and motorcycling, none of which match the intensity of war.
This conversation includes a boy fishing in the eastern highlands, hiding in the avocado tree, sent away to boarding school, rhodesia before the guns, the country fractures and officer at eighteen.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 04:18
I'll ask you, I'll ask you about boarding school, your boarding school experience in a moment, but before we go on to your boarding school experience, can you tell us a bit more about your childhood and your relationship with your parents. I understand that your dad had a bit of a temper, and could you tell us about the avocado tree memory?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 04:42
Yeah, we had moved back to town, and so coming back, I would come home in the holidays, and yeah, it'd be great for one day, and then you're back into the grind of things, and Coming back, also one of the biggest problems was the boarding school was 300 km away, and friends that you had at school, they went to their homes, and so I didn't have any friends from school in my neighbourhood. So it was a little bit, not lonely, I just got used to it, you know.. But my father, when I reflect back, I think he had chronic PTSD as well because that's why he went fishing. But yeah, he had quite a short Scottish temper on him, and if you did something wrong, you know, he would, one, would want to give you a smack if he could catch you. So I used to climb up— we had a big avocado pear tree and it used to produce the most amazing fruit, or whatever you want to call it. And one particular day he was trying to get me out the tree, but he couldn't climb the tree and I was at the top. I had this old tin metal frame bed right at the top, that was my treehouse. And he would be, "I'll bring the axe, I'm going to cut the tree down." And our gardener at that time, Adamson, who was an old Malawian African, lovely guy, he told my father, "Oh, if you cut the tree down, there's no more avocado pears," you know. So he would have the way of calming my father down. But I'd normally have to spend the night up in the tree because until it was safe and he'd gone to work, and then, then it'd all be forgotten until— so Wednesdays and Thursdays— Wednesdays and Saturdays were bad days because that was golf, and golf led to drinks, and drinks led to a little bit of, um, yeah, So, you know, he was a great provider, and he got very sick when I was in, in the army. I was— it was 1978. He got, um, uh, he had a burst ulcer, and then they took out his pancreas. And, and my mother basically took him home because they said there was nothing more they could do. And then she took him um, south to the coast, um, and they moved to South Africa in 1978. And, you know, but I stayed right up to the end, you know. But yeah, but it was all in all, it was— if I reflect back, you know, it was full of adventure, my childhood.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 07:53
Childhood, yes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 07:55
Yeah, you know, so much freedom, you know. When I look at today you know, you get into trouble for the slightest thing there. You know, we didn't fear the police, we respected the police. I think today it's a bit different. You sort of fear them more than, you know, anything else, you know.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 08:13
Yes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 08:15
So that's why that's different.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 08:17
Yes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 08:18
And it was safe, you know.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 08:21
Right.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 08:21
The African population would look after you, you know. They weren't out there to murder you, you know.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 08:27
Yes. Okay, so, so a safe, safe upbringing, lots of outdoor adventures on, on horses and, and fishing.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 08:37
Yep.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 08:37
And then you're sent to boarding school when you were 12, and you were there for 5 years. And now that was a harsh, a harsh experience. Can you tell us a bit about your boarding school years?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 08:48
Well, I actually went to boarding school when I was 5. Oh, 5. Yeah, but that was a junior school, and then my sisters were there at the same time, so that wasn't so bad. And then we— then I did— when we moved back to town, I went to a day school, and I made a lot of good friends there. And then after that year of day school at what was called Standard 5, I went to senior school. In senior school, they shipped me off to a place called Falcon, which was in the middle of nowhere, and a very, very, very strict private school. So it was almost military in the way, you know, you did things. You had to, you know, you'd get cane for if you had a hair over your ear or your sock was down, whatever, you know, they would they didn't need excuses to beat you. And some of the teachers were good, others weren't so nice, you know.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 09:53
How do you think that those boarding school years affected you?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 09:58
Oh, I think one of the biggest things was that you— I couldn't understand why I got sent away and not my sisters, you know. And for years I always got different answers from my mother, and I actually put it down that she, one, she had 4 daughters to cope with, and she was looking after my father, and they were running a business. So she had a very busy life, and maybe I was a, you know, a very energetic child. So I think they thought, well, send me off there. But also I think it was to protect me from my father. So yeah, it was— How did it make you feel? It gave you abandonment issues and self-worth as well, because you always think, well, what did I do wrong to deserve that? But you get over that, and it made me very independent. And even to this day, I still I do not like anybody's help. If I'm going to do it, I'll do it myself. I don't like asking for help, you know, and I suppose that's what it taught you.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 11:15
Yes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 11:15
And it did, it taught me that which helped me when I went in to do my military service. Right. Because there you were alone. There you were with other troops, but you were on your own.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 11:30
Yes, I will go into, um, to ask you about the war soon. Before we do move on to the subject of the war, can you briefly describe what life in Rhodesia was like prior to the war? You've already touched on, on your, your own childhood and your own experience, which sounded quite idyllic except for perhaps your father's influence. But what was, what was it for the general population? What was Rhodesia like before the war?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 12:00
It was, you know, as a kid I grew up in Nyanga and I had an African friend because there weren't many other white kids there. And we had tremendous adventures and there was no, in the way I was brought up, there was no difference in colour or anything like that. You treated a person the same way you wanted to be treated. And, you know, I know if I was ever disrespectful to someone senior than me, didn't matter if they were white or black, I would be severely reprimanded. So you learned that very quickly. And the people, both black and white, you know, it was a big surprise that actually war, you know, started. But again, not really because it was orchestrated by, you know, Britain and, you know, the spread of communism the way we understood it. And yes, you know, they could talk about it was a nationalist war, but I didn't see that side, although I'm sure there would have been cases of, you know, racialism and stuff like that, but I didn't see that.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 13:21
So, Mike, can you just, for those who don't know the history of Rhodesia and Zimbabwe, can you just in a very brief way explain— well, I believe it started in 1975. Can you just, just give us a brief overview of, of who was— what happened and, and who was fighting and why?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 13:40
Well, what, what happened was in, in the late, uh, the mid-'60s, Britain was getting rid of its colonies, and this was part of an agreement it had with America after the Second World War. So it was Kenya was the first to go, and they had the Mau Mau uprising. Then you had the Congo, which was Belgium, a Belgium colony. They were very, very— under King Leopold, they were really bad news. And then of course it happened in Rhodesia, which was Rhodesia, was Southern and Northern Rhodesia, and Nyasaland, which became Malawi. So it was Zambia, Malawi, and Rhodesia. We opted to, because we were a self-governing colony, and, you know, all our kith and kin had fought for the British during the Second World War and the First World War, and they just felt that, no, you know, we built too much, and then to suddenly just hand this over to who? To this foreign-led, you know, communism, which is China, which essentially owns Zimbabwe today. So, you know, people can say that it was a racialistic war. It wasn't, because if it was, why were over 80% of our troops black, you know? Yes.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 15:11
Mike, I know you love Zimbabwe very much. How did it feel when the country that you were raised in was falling into war? How did it feel at the time?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 15:26
Yeah, it was very, very bad because you just— all you saw was, you know, security forces regret to announce the death in action and then you'd have all these civilians killed, you know, for no rhyme or reason. And it started getting really bad in about '73 to '74, and then by '75 it was a full-on war. And when I went in, in the end of '75, '76, it was, you know, it— the atrocities were absolutely horrific, and that's what terrorism is. And we were fighting essentially two fronts. We were fighting ZANLA, which was Mugabe, and he was Chinese-backed. And then we were fighting ZIPRA, which was Ndebele, Joshua Nkomo, and they were Russian-backed. So we were fighting basically on three fronts. So we had our northeast border, which was Mozambique and Zambia, and then Botswana, which was meant to be neutral. They were still infiltrating through Botswana. So yeah, it was a, it was a very, very traumatic war.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 16:49
Yes, yes, a lot of people killed. Yes. And Mike, at aged 18, you were an officer leading your own Support Unit.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 17:01
Yes, I, I, um, when I went to do my national service, um, I joined Support Unit and it was an all-Black regiment which did counterinsurgency and we were totally self-sustaining. So we had our own, you know, we went out in a troop and they were named from Alpha Troop down to X-Ray, and then they eventually became companies. But when I was in, it was still a troop and about 45 guys in a troop. And so we had our own vehicles, our own, and we would be self-contained for— we'd go out for 6 weeks at a time and then come back for 10 days, on and off. And in that time—
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 17:51
when you say go out, do you mean out into the jungle?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 17:55
Operation, yeah.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 17:56
Operating against guerrilla warfare.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 18:00
Yeah, so we would be, depending where we went, you know, but we would go and fight mainly in what the terrorists like to call a liberated area. In other words, that they controlled. But, you know, we would come in and then they'd run like hell because they didn't want to— well, they did fight, but We found Zipra were much better fighters than Zonla, and Zipra used to go in smaller gangs. With Zonla, we were having contact with, you know, we'd be a 4-man, 5-man team, and we'd be having a contact with 60-plus terrorists, you know, and you still take the fight to them. So it was a, we didn't have the luxury of overhead air support all the time, but in some cases we did. But it was like a cat and mouse game and very strategic in the way you find them because they would be hiding amongst the populace and you wouldn't know they're terrorists. You know, you could walk past one and you'd be looked like a normal civilian, but he's not, you know. It was a very tragic war.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 19:21
Yes, and I find it amazing that you were only 18 when you were the head of a unit. What was the hardest thing about leadership in that capacity when you were so young?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 19:37
Well, I sort of got— I naturally fell into it. And normally they had more experienced and, you know, regular officers, but they were far and few between. You know, by that stage there just weren't, you know, people willing to put their hand up and go and fight, you know. And so I ended up myself and another young National Serviceman and we were, because I was the senior guy, I was responsible for it and it suited our, you know, as long as we were doing well, we were left alone. So you obviously, you did the best you could, you know, and as far as leading the guys, I think you led from the front. So I wasn't like a lot of the other officers that would stay in base camp and deploy their troops, I was out with the troops all the time. So, you know, I spent all that time, you know, sleeping rough and, you know, just hard. And your troops respect you for that, you know.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 20:56
Yes, because you were there with them.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 20:59
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 21:01
How, as a leader, how did you manage your fear? Because I imagine there would be many times when you were under attack and there would have been a lot of fear. How did you manage your fear as a leader?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 21:13
I think fear is something that you have to learn to control. And, um, I remember my first ever contact, I was literally It was my second day in the bush, so I'd been sent to this camp called— near Marymount, and it was right up in the north, and I was deployed that night. And early the next morning, we were right up near the Rua River, which is right on the northern border with Mozambique and a big crossing point for terrorists to come in and and we were just up and we were making a cup of tea sitting in the bush and we heard this explosion, so we went to investigate and there was a big gang of terrorists that crossed into Mozambique, from Mozambique into Rhodesia, and half of them were in and half of them were still on the other side and one unfortunate fellow had detonated an AP mine, so that was the explosion. But we walked into this well-set ambush and we were very lucky to come away unscathed. But it was just very fortunate that there was an aircraft in the vicinity and I called him onto the target and he sorted them out, you know. But yeah, you know, afterwards you shake him. But when it's happening, you just— it's the same as fear when you're going over a waterfall or you're riding at 150 km/h on a motorbike or 200 km/h flying a microlight. You know, you learn to accept it. And, you know, I suppose also because I was brought up in an adventurous sort of kid. I sort of— I think I missed the lesson on fear at school.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 23:18
During those, those 5 years, I think 5 years of war, you must have encountered many, many traumas, many awful, horrible, horrible times. If you're— if you're comfortable to— no pressure at all— but if you're comfortable in sharing some of those, I think it would be good. I think the audience would be interested in some of the realities of war?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 23:45
Well, towards the end, when you had a contact and say you— I had a couple of times where I'd actually wounded terrorists in contacts, and when you swept through the area and you disarmed them, they were very young. And they would normally say, please, I'm a recruit, you know, I— and a lot of them were, a lot of them were press-ganged into joining the liberation movements, although they would say that they all volunteered, but a lot of them— we attended many school abductions where they came and abducted children from schools and forced them across the border at gunpoint and then put them into re-education camps and made them, you know, and so it's like they still do today. They, you know, they bring these child soldiers or youngsters in and, you know, they get fed full of drugs and propaganda, and it is difficult for them. But seeing the atrocities committed, because, you know, the indiscriminate landmining— I once missed a landmine by inches, and as we passed over the spot, a truck came from the opposite direction, and it was full of civilians, you know, elderly men, women, and children, and they were waving to us as we waved back to them, and they just went over the rise and bang, they hit that mine, and 22 of them were killed. We went, we were the first on the scene, and you know, just carnage. They shot and killed some missionaries who, that was the Elim Mission Massacre in '78, I think it was. And, you know, women and children, babies were just hacked to death, and they were there trying to help the locals, you know. They shot down 2 passenger airliners with 46+ and some— I don't know how many on the other. And on the first plane, I think there were 13 survived, and then they came to the scene and then bayoneted them to death. So they survived the plane crash and were killed. So war atrocities, there's no excuse. You know, people say to me, oh, they're not terrorists, they're freedom fighters, you know. And my answer is that if you kill indiscriminately women and children you're a terrorist, you know, and that's what terrorism is about. It's about terrorizing people to make them into the will of, you know, that party. And, you know, Mugabe was not a saint. He was very— and they were brutal, very brutal, you know. They would attack farms, and we had a number of follow-ups we had to do where they had attacked a farm and an elderly couple were killed, you know, burnt and mutilated, and then they killed all the farm animals. And just, yeah, it hasn't changed its definition, or it hasn't changed the way it's done from 50 years ago to what happens today, you know. And there should be no place for that in the world. Yes.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 27:42
Mike, how do you cope with that? How do you cope with witnessing so much bloodshed and horror?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 27:50
That's very hard because, I mean, when it all finished, it's quite funny, you know, I always said that there are no winners in war. So irrespective of which side you're on, if you fought, you will have bad memories. Or yes, you'll have good times because your brain wants to remember the good times, but the bad times— I only believe that people that aren't affected by the killing are either psychopaths or they don't have any empathy whatsoever. And if you do have compassion and empathy, it affects you terribly. And it did for me, but I sort of learned a coping strategy. The one thing that you come out of a war is you come out with this adrenaline rush second to none, and it's like a— it's almost like a drug. You've got to keep taking it to feel normal. So my normal was, you know, that extreme adrenaline rush being hunted or hunt and killing. And there is no greater adrenaline rush than killing. None. And I mean, I've tried everything. I've bloomin' paraglided, microlighted, waterfalls, extreme motorbike riding. And if you ask me which was the best rush, that was fighting. And you become very, very close to your your comrades, you know, the guys that you fight with. And yes, you know, you're actually fighting for them more than anything else. Yes.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 29:30
And tell me, can you talk about your friends who you were with during the war? And you have tragically, you lost some friends during the war.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 29:41
Yeah, I did. Yeah, yeah, it was terrible because, um, you know, you'd come back on R&R and then you'd, um, have 10 days, so you'd all be very close and you'd all go out partying and drinking, and then you come back, you're in the bush, and then you get a message that so-and-so was killed or so-and-so was killed, and then you have to come back and then you've got to do, you know, the funeral. And yeah, I stopped going to them after a while. It just was didn't want to do it. And then you also introvert yourself, so you try not to have too many friends because it's just too painful. That's what I did in my case. And it also affected me because when I went from— after doing my national service, I went to university and I was a while by the time I went to university. And you can't suddenly be killing people and then pulled out of that and sitting in a classroom. And so I, you know, I was a bit naughty at university and I got expelled the first time. And then I went to an agricultural college and I got removed from that too because I was just So I went back to war and I stayed until the end, you know.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 31:14
Which was 1980?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 31:17
1980. And then it was all over.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 31:21
So what did Rhodesia look like post-1980 when Mugabe's organization took control? How did that change Rhodesia?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 31:33
Initially, initially there was a lot of goodwill and a lot of the whites left, plenty.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 31:41
Why, Mike?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 31:43
Well, they were, they were afraid, they were afraid of, of, you know, the results of— yeah, and you know, you know, what went down in the war. And you know, like for example We had two units. SAS was one of them that was disbanded, and the Salou Scouts were disbanded. RLI was disbanded, and they were all— well, SAS and Salou Scouts— SAS were an all-white regiment, and RLI was an all-white regiment, and Salou Scouts was mixed, like support unit. And the armies were integrated, so Zipra and Zana and our black soldiers from Rhodesia were all integrated into a new military by a British monitoring force. And I think the initial years were good, but then Mugabe went into Matabeleland and he killed off, they estimate between 20,000 and 30,000 civilians. That's when it started to go pear-shaped because he had a unit called the 5th Brigade that was only— they were trained by the North Koreans and they were rabid. And funny enough, I actually met them In about 1986, I was kayaking down on the border with Mozambique, and we ended up spending an extra night out. And the guy I was kayaking with was the Minister of Finance's son, and Bernard Tshadzira was a lovely man. He wasn't a— he didn't come from the terrorist background. He was actually a financial wizard. I think he worked for the World Bank or something, and part of the Lancaster RCATU. He came back to become the Finance Minister, and I met the 5th Brigade. It was 1986, and they were then working, trying to catch all the RENAMO terrorists in Mozambique. So, yeah. But that's when it started to go pear-shaped. By the time I left in '88, it was pretty much if you pissed off Mugabe, you would just disappear and you'd end up on a mine shelf. Right. It wasn't safe. You had severe exchange control. And then When he took the farms in end of '99, 2000, then it just— the country imploded. You know, unemployment went up to 80, 90%, and you most probably have heard about, you know, the $100 trillion notes. You know, the currency was devalued. In fact, Zimbabwe holds the world record for inflation. And they're still doing it. And I don't know the answer. They've got an enormous amount of debt they've got to pay back, and I don't think they can pay it back.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 35:11
So how does that make you feel now, the current state of Zimbabwe, a country that you grew up there and you loved it?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 35:24
Sad. And especially, you know, like my folks, you know, my father worked really hard and he had, you know, civil engineering and a transport business. And, you know, they were very wealthy and, you know, they had to leave and, you know, you couldn't take your own money out. It had to be put in government bearer bonds, which then became worthless. So we had to literally break the law to get our money out the country. It was those severe controls that my radar is up as we speak now. I just, I can't be in a place that's going to control, control that because it's wrong. You know, you work hard for your money and then suddenly you You're just not allowed to touch it, you know, and everything just gets nationalized and taken. So it took 60 years to build Rhodesia, and it was a world-class economy, and it was destroyed within 20 years. Sad, you know, very sad.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 36:37
Yeah, heartbreaking. And I understand that you have faith in God, and your faith in God has helped you cope with what you've had to cope with. Can you tell us about your faith and how that has helped you?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 36:52
Well, I had, um, after the war in 1980, I went and studied in South Africa for 3 years doing electrical, and then I was actually on a, um, on a holiday here in Australia, actually on the Sunshine Coast. And I didn't know anything about— I'd been brought up where you had to go to chapel, you know, because that was what you did. But I had no relationship with God. I didn't even know, you know, it was like, there's the Bible and all of that. But I witnessed an accident on, on that Maroochydore Road going towards Maroochydore, and it was an elderly couple that got hit head-on by these two guys that were drunks, were drunk. And anyway, long story short, I was in the ambulance with the lady trying to keep her alive, and she said to me, no, she's going to be with the Lord. And I thought, who's the Lord? Anyway, she died, and her husband died in the car. And the next day, my cousin, he was going surfing in Noosa, and he said, "Well, do you want to come with me?" And I said, "Oh, I'd love to." And he said, "But we're going to a church. You'll have to go to the church." So I thought, "Oh well." So I went to this church service. It was on the Noosa River there, and the people that were the founding members of that church were that elderly couple that died in that accident. That was like what you could call it, luck or whatever. But I thought about it that day, and then that night I actually made a commitment, and my life changed. And it was, you know, I can remember because months, a couple of weeks before, the Americans had got bombed in Beirut, and there were 100-odd Marines killed. And I remember it made me so angry. I was actually contemplating going and signing up again, and then that all went. And so I went, I actually went back to Zimbabwe and I actually went to Bible school. But I then, while I was at Bible school, I saw what they call the prosperity movement and, you know, how man gets involved in, in God's business and You know, so that just floored me. So I have a very strong faith, but I just stay away from organizations like that. I don't want to know them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, uh, I've always known God's had a hand on everything that's happened to me. And I mean, people say, oh, you know, that's you just thinking that. But like when I had that microlight accident, if those things hadn't been in place, I wouldn't be here talking to you today. Yes, yes, you know, yes, the same with that, that car accidents and all of those things.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 40:04
Yes, so yes, yeah, we're going to talk more about those, those near-death experiences later on. Mike Fanau, can you take us back to when you're about 26 and you moved to South Africa to study? What did you study there?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 40:26
Well, I first moved in 1980, so I was, uh, what was that, I was 22, and then I did 3 years and then I came back to Zimbabwe and I'd done electrical engineering and so I was in Zimbabwe. That's when I met Andrew and, you know, had some very interesting times with ex-terrorists, became my friend. But I left, eventually left Zimbabwe in '88 after a very close friend was arrested and he was sentenced to 25 years. In jail in Zim because he had been helping the South Africans. He was a spy for South Africa, if you want to call it. And I just by chance had met him because we worked together during the war, and we hadn't seen each other for like 10 years or whatever it was. And so we just caught up and had a a lunch and a beer, and he was under surveillance. And then they picked him up, and then they picked— I got picked up and was being interrogated. Unfortunately, that friend of mine who was— came in and he got me out. And, and, um, I just decided, nah, it's, it's not going to end well here. And you could see that It had become a one-party state. And, you know, I had friends that had parents that were in ZANU-PF, and I just thought, "Nap, you're just going to get a knock on the door at 1 o'clock in the morning and they just take you away and that's it." So I moved.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 42:22
So you moved, and what did you study when you moved?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 42:26
Oh, then when I moved back to— Yeah, I studied management philosophy, so I ended up doing what they call an MDP, an accounting degree, and then a master's in business administration. So I ended up at a young age going into management, and I would say that it was my time in the war that actually taught me because in any business you look at your staff as an asset, not as a number. And when you do that, you'll get the best out of them. And then if you can create the right environment for them to work in, well, then you're going to win. And, you know, that's, you know, I went to high places in South Africa.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 43:17
What did you, Mark, what did you notice about South Africa initially when you moved there? That was quite different from Zimbabwe.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 43:24
When I went to study there in 1980, I couldn't believe how there was segregation. And because I was doing my apprenticeship in a sweet factory, Wilson Laundry, they had a lot of black and coloured staff. And, you know, there were whites there as well, and there were certain individuals that were quite racist and it didn't go down well with me. And then when I went back in 1988, I thought it had changed a bit, but it didn't. I was actually at the airport waiting for my dogs to come down, so they— I had them flown down And while I was at the commercial side of that airport, this is in East London, there was a—
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 44:19
East London, South Africa we're talking about. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 44:23
And there was a white guy who was exporting roses and he had a lot of Xhosa black women working there and they were— and he was really shouting at them, you know, to hurry up. I said something to him and then he took out his wrath on me, so we ended up having a punch-up on the conveyor. And then he went to call the police and the police came and I said, "No, he fell on the conveyor, I didn't." And then they were trying to get witnesses and they were all black staff there. None of them, they said, "Nap, I didn't see anything." So, you know, It was very real. And I mean, if I'd been brought up black, I would have gone and, you know, it's not nice to be told, you know, the colour of your skin, you must walk on that side of the road and, you know, have a pass or an ID, whereas no one else did. It was wrong. And that's what changed South Africa. It was the union movement that changed South Africa in '94.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 45:39
So you stayed in South Africa for about 12 years, is that right? Running businesses?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 45:46
Yeah, from '88 I did 6 years in East London and then I got transferred to Durban and I did another 6 years in Durban. They were great years, but in '94 when the elections took place and Mandela got into power, just before that happened, two white extremists, right-wing assassinated a guy called Chris Hani, which was an ANC guy. Their country erupted into almost a civil war, and I nearly became a victim of that. And then, you know, I vowed never to pick up a firearm again after the war in Rhodesia. I said, "No, I don't want to." But I ended up going and arming myself again because it was unsafe. And, you know, I had a number of instances that— and eventually I just realized that I thought, you know what, my kids have got to grow up in this place, and as a father, I've got to give them the best opportunity in life. Yes, yes.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 47:02
That's why at this stage you were married and had 3— you were raising 3 sons.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 47:08
Yeah, yeah. And it was the right choice to make because they've all done very well in Australia, and they, you know, they settled, and not one of them wants to go back to Africa. Yes, none of them were interested.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 47:19
Yes. So, yes, so you mentioned that there were several experiences that were telling you that that's— it's time to leave South Africa. One of them you mentioned to me before was a carjacking threat.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 47:36
Can you— that happened? It happened literally every day. And, um, I just— it happened to me and I just fought back. And I just realized, nah, it's just, you know, that's not normal. No. You know, and to have people waving weapons at you and telling you to pull over because they're going to take your car or throwing rocks at you, it's just not normal. So I just— I decided that it was safer for me and safer for them if I left. Because I wouldn't have gone down without a fight. And, you know, it's not if, it's when it happens. And it happened many times, like kayaking. We had people throwing rocks at us, you know, dropping big boulders down from the cliffs. And, you know, even not safe paddling, you know.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 48:38
So I just I thought, "No, dumb." Yes, and you had a good friend who was shot. He was— Oh yeah. People tried to kill him and yet he survived. He was shot 5 times and survived.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 48:52
Yeah, we found out later it was a hit that had been put on him by an Indian competitor because he was selling truck spares. And these two Africans from the Transkei came up. They were part of a hit squad and they shot him 5 times. And Julian, I don't think he's— he's not the same, but he survived. And we found out who did it, and, you know, retribution did come, but the problem was that by that stage, and I think the statistics were 98% of crimes got away unpunished, especially, especially, um, in the Natal area.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 49:47
So you, you left South Africa, but your adventures absolutely continued. Can you tell us about your— the diamond story? It sounds like something from Indiana Jones.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 50:00
Well, it actually was, um, just prior to— in fact, I'd, I'd moved my wife and kids to South Africa, and I took two vehicles purchased in South Africa to Botswana. I registered them in Botswana and then took them back into Zimbabwe and fixed them up. And then with with an ex-terrorist who actually came from the Congo. His father was. And we and another friend who had a prosthetic leg, we took these vehicles to Zaire to sell for diamonds. So it was an adventure because you were only allowed to take out, I think at that stage, stage, $200 or $1,000 if you were immigrating, but $200— or no, sorry, $20 in cash out of Zimbabwe. Wow. Yeah, very strict. So I had, I think it was about $30,000 or $40,000 in cash to pay for this trip. So we got to Chirundu, which was the border with Zambia. And we got there late afternoon and I put the binoculars on the border post to see what they were doing and we all agreed that they were going to search the vehicles from top to toe. So I decided to paddle across the river during the night, which I did, and then I went and scurried up the bank onto the Zambian side and found a suitable sign and then went and hid the money in the bush. And the next day we went through, we got searched. We had, um, it was quite funny because when we did the trip we had boxes of cigarettes and small bottles of brandy. And what we did with the brandy is that we drank half and we filled up the other half with Bruklax. You know what Bruklax is? It's a It's a highly potent laxative. It was brown, so they looked like full bottles. And we had one case. So these were for the problematic people we met along the way. And then the other ones were for the nice guys. So we got them across into Zambia. We moved. I changed that money on the black market for, I think it was 10 to 1. Um, for Kwacha. And then we got to the Zairean border, and of course, um, in Africa you got to pay a bribe. And I think the fee for bringing the vehicles into Zaire, they wanted like a quarter of a million US dollars, something stupid. And, um, we got put under armed escort to Lubumbashi, and The guy that was our armed escort was a, he was a pretty old guy and he had an SKS with him. And of course he tucked into one of those bottles that made you, you know, diarrhea. Yeah, made the world fall out your bottom. So halfway there he disappeared and he left his rifle in the vehicle. So we're waiting around and Anyway, we carry on and we knew he would catch up to us. So I was repairing the Land Rover in Lubumbashi when he pitched up and he was very, very worried because he'd lost his weapon. So I said to him, no, no, no, no, I've got it here. He said, no, he didn't know what happened, you know. I said, oh, he must have got sick or something, you know. Anyway, he was so pleased. And helped. He got his cousin to help us get our paperwork, and then off we went. And the thing was that the African that was with me, I'll just say his name, A, okay, he was— he later went back to the Congo, Zaire, and he became Kabila's right-hand man. He was He was a— I think he was a Brigadier General when he died in 2020. So we had a lot of history. And so we went, and off we went, and we went to a place. It was a place called Chikapa, which was a diamond area, and you weren't allowed in there. But I figured the way we could get in is I'll just paddle in down the river, and then they can come and pick me up, and we make it look like it was a kayaking expedition. That's what we did.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 54:59
So we got in, and you just remind us, Mike, what was your objective to go into the diamond area?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 55:06
To sell the two vehicles for diamonds. Okay, so we, we, I think could have been like 10 times the amount we would have got for them. That was a way of getting our money out of Zimbabwe. I just took the long way. And then when we got the stones, they were hidden. And that's how I eventually got my money out of Zimbabwe and allowed me to build a house, buy a house in South Africa. Because we were allowed to take our furniture out, and that was it. And so it's very difficult leaving. And, you know, most Zimbabweans or Rhodesians that left after the war, you know, they literally had to start again. And so, you know, they're all over the world now.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 56:01
Was it difficult to smuggle diamonds out of Zimbabwe?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 56:06
Out of Zaire? Yeah, no, we hit it in the leg. In the false link. Yeah, and he— they, they flew overseas and I flew back to South Africa. We parted company, and then it took me about 3 months to get my money from him, but I eventually got it.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 56:26
Right.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 56:27
Okay.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 56:28
And can you also share with us the story about how your plane was impounded in Zim?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 56:37
I used to, I pioneered, I was one of the first to kayak below Vic Falls in 1983. So that's where I'd learned to kayak as a kid. I was kayaking, but you know, extreme whitewater. And I had this, always used to go up to the falls once a year, maybe, maybe every second year. So I paddled it hundreds of times. And this particular year I took my Microlight up, and it was, it was the year that Princess Diana died, because I remember watching the news on the way up that she had been killed. And that was in— I was living in Durban then. So I, I trailered the plane up and I would go fly in the morning, and then I'd early morning flight and then I'd kayak and then I'd have an afternoon flight. But I was at the airport and these guys in the control tower, they were adamant that they were going to get some money out of me one way or the other. So the first thing they asked for was landing fees and I showed them in their book it's got to be under, if it's under 250 kilos you don't pay landing fees. And that plane was only 176. Then they wanted for navigation fees, and I said you have to have a transponder. Anyway, they wanted to cash me for something, and I got dobbed in for low flying. And of course, when you're looking at the falls, you want to see it from close up, you know, and I did.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 58:21
Did you fly under the bridge?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 58:24
At Victoria Falls. Yeah, that was, uh, when I look back, it was a bit of a stupid thing to do, but you survived. It was there, and I went under, turned around, and went back again, and then flew down the gorge. And anyway, I got back on a Friday morning flight, and they promptly impounded my plane, and they said, oh, you've got to pay. It was a huge amount of money, like $1,500 or something. And I said, fine. And I went off and paddled. And then I thought, these guys knock off at about 5 o'clock and it's a Friday, they'll all be down at the pub. So I got my friend to— we drove to the airport and I looked around and I could see I could climb over and just start the plane and go. And I got him to hook up the trailer. And I said, I'll meet you out on the Kazungula Road. And I jumped over, took off, and I actually took off on the apron, you know, so this is where passengers disembark. And I took off, grabbed the— landed on the Kazungula Road behind him, and then put the plane on the trailer and packed up the wing and went into town, had dinner, and then left that night. And so the next— by the next day when they would have got to work, there was no plane.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 59:49
Mike, in an earlier conversation that we had, you said that you were built for Africa, and yet you moved to Australia in 2000. So that must have been very hard.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:00:04
The actual move was a bit more harder for me than for my kids or for my, my ex, but You know, when you grow up and you grow up in the outdoors and you serve your time, you know how to fight, you know how to take care of yourself, you've been in the bush all your life and you have empathy and compassion for people. I had a lot of African friends and it was the decision to come to Australia was solely for my kids. That was it. If I didn't have kids, I would never have come over here. I'd still be back there. But, you know, you have to look at your family first, you know.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 1:00:47
Yes, and keep them safe.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:00:50
And it was the correct decision because had they stayed in South Africa, they would have had to dealt with affirmative action and, you know, they wouldn't have been able to get into university because of the colour of their skin and jobs were, you know, reserved for quotas and stuff. And, you know, it's been a disaster. So the economy is tanked in South Africa because of that. It's not to say that it wasn't necessary, but I think it could have been done a little bit better. And, you know, just the fact is you could be a good human being but the colour of your skin will determine whether you get hijacked or not. And it's not to say that a lot of black people and Indians and colours were, you know, crime is just out of control there. And if anybody had the opportunity to leave, they would leave.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 1:01:47
Yes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:01:48
And I just did that. Yes.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 1:01:50
Mike, in 2000 you moved to Australia. What was your last week like for you in South Africa?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:01:59
Oh, it was quite hectic because when we got accepted to Australia, we came over in September 2000. I'd been accepted to Australia once before and I hadn't taken it up. That was when I left Zimbabwe to South Africa. So they were a little bit adamant that I hurry up. So I made, we came over and I got, I had two job offers and anyway, I took the one in Brisbane and the guy that I went to work for is still a very close friend of mine today, this 25 years later. But when I went back, it was just a whirlwind because I had to sell the business, sell the house, sell the cars, pack the containers, and we did that in 2 and a half months, and we were here on Christmas Day. So it was just, it was hectic, but you had to be very careful who you spoke to because, you know, people were, um, the one thing I noticed, you couldn't say to your friends that had left in South Africa that, um, you know, things are bad there and things are great here and so on, because everybody has to, you know, deal with the cards that they've been handed. And many of my friends have said to me they wish they had left when I, you know, because they asked me why I was leaving and I told them, I said, because I see too much similarity of what's happened in Zim happening in South Africa. And, but if everybody left, there would you know, the place would collapse. But yeah, I think, you know, we were too busy to even think about it. It was a new adventure as far as I was concerned, and the kids were excited. And our transition was quite easy because the company paid for everything, and we had accommodation when we got here, vehicle, and so on and so forth, you know.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 1:04:09
So were you able to bring furniture over and personal belongings?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:04:14
Yeah, we brought all of that. Yeah, yeah, lots of boxes of stuff that my ex was a hoarder, or still is. She's still got those boxes from 25 years ago. Yeah, I don't say I miss that. Um, no, it was, it was a very easy move for us.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 1:04:37
Considering. Mike, what would you want your children and future generations to understand about what it felt for you to leave Africa?
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:04:46
It's a difficult one, that, because, because, you know, some people are built for adventure and some are not. You know, some people are adventurous by nature and others are not. And, you know, I look at my 3 boys and they're all done well in their own right, but none of them have ever had adventures like I've had, you know. And I've taken them all kayaking, and even my middle son, I used to take him flying, and we had a particularly dangerous time where the winds changed once. But they're just different kids today, you know. You know. I mean, they don't know what they're missing, you know. It's, um, like where I live up here, you know, it's— I've got rivers on my back step. I've got the, the Barrier Reef 14 K's out, you know.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 1:05:45
Yeah, beautiful.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:05:47
Yeah. And you know, that's what life's about, you know. God's beauty. It's It's not in the concrete jungle, it's, you know, out in nature.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 1:05:59
Absolutely agree. Mike, um, we're out of time now for this episode, but we have so much more of your life to cover. And that— so in your next episode, we'll just— we'll, um, hear about your life in Australia. So thank you very much for sharing that. I know you're currently in a lot of physical pain And we'll get to that why you're in physical pain in the next episode. So thank you very much for sharing the story, especially why you're in so much pain. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:06:32
Okay.
Michael Stewart (part 1) (Guest) · 1:06:32
Thank you, Mike.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 1:06:33
We'll see you. Bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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