Matt & Jezey Wolf
The herd we built together
Two people built a healing sanctuary where horses teach nervous system regulation and young people learn to negotiate instead of fight.
Hear this story
Kintsugi Studio
Matt & Jezey Wolf
Two people built a healing sanctuary where horses teach nervous system regulation and young people learn to negotiate instead of fight.
Hear this story
Follow the show
Matt and Jezey Wolf built Wolfpack Ranch as a place where horses and the natural world teach what conventional therapy sometimes misses. Matt left school at fourteen because traditional classrooms didn't fit him, then spent years working cattle, fabricating metal, fighting professionally in MMA, and rebuilding after a marriage breakdown. Jezey grew up surrounded by animals, always finding safer ground with them than people, and later shifted from the music industry through marketing into health and wellness work, searching for something that actually mattered. When they met through martial arts and discovered they both had wolf tattoos, they began moving north together. One of Jezey's conditions for the move was getting a horse.
Visitors to their property started noticing something they couldn't name: the land itself seemed to heal them. Matt began mentoring young people who, like him, didn't fit school. Both independently started researching equine-assisted therapy, only to discover they were researching the same thing. What emerged from that alignment is now a working sanctuary where teenagers and adults come to work with a herd of horses that say no. When a young person can't force a 500-kilogram horse to move, they have to learn negotiation, gentleness, and communication instead of their usual pattern of fighting or aggression. That shift carries back into their real lives. Adults report feeling like they're doing therapy for the first time, held not just by Matt and Jezey but by the entire natural environment around them. The horses don't perform for healing; they show up as themselves, and in doing that, they show people what trust and regulated nervous systems actually feel like.
“people would come and visit and just say, wow, like I feel so good when I'm here. Even for days after I visit, I just feel so zenned out”
“If you're drawn to be with them, don't ignore it. There's a reason your nervous system and your body wants that”
“I'm 6'4 inch cowboy, worked on the land most of my life, and I'm really trying to show even young kids that having emotion is okay”
The hero, today
Jezey found solace and safety with animals from childhood, a pull that now makes sense to her as a neurodivergent person navigating a neurotypical world. Matt left school at fourteen because conventional learning didn't work for him, and now mentors other young people who feel the same disconnection. When young people work with horses that refuse to move or comply, they learn to negotiate and communicate gently instead of defaulting to force or aggression, a shift they carry back into their real lives. The slow way of training horses, building trust first before riding, takes longer at the start but eliminates years of behavioural problems and creates horses with regulated nervous systems. Adults who come to work with the horses therapeutically report feeling like they are doing therapy for the first time, in part because the entire natural environment is holding them during the processing, not just the therapist. If you feel drawn to be with animals, honour that pull; there is a reason your nervous system wants it, and the natural world offers lessons about moving without rushing, getting things done without fighting, and healing despite profound difficulty.
Yes. Matt & Jezey Wolf is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Jezey found solace and safety with animals from childhood, a pull that now makes sense to her as a neurodivergent person navigating a neurotypical world.
Matt left school at fourteen because conventional learning didn't work for him, and now mentors other young people who feel the same disconnection.
When young people work with horses that refuse to move or comply, they learn to negotiate and communicate gently instead of defaulting to force or aggression, a shift they carry back into their real lives.
The slow way of training horses, building trust first before riding, takes longer at the start but eliminates years of behavioural problems and creates horses with regulated nervous systems.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 00:02
Welcome to another episode of Animals and Us, where we explore and honor the awesomeness of animals and our relationships with them. Hello, Jesse and Matt. Welcome to Animals and Us.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 00:49
Thank you so much for having us. It's awesome to be here.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 00:52
Can we start from the beginning with you, Jesse? Can you tell us about your childhood and the role that animals played in your childhood?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 01:02
Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, very early in life I was very fortunate to sort of live semi-rurally, um, which meant that I got to have horses and dogs and cats and chickens and the whole nine yards in my world. Um, whilst I don't remember it, apparently when I was little everyone would just call me the Pied Piper because if they were never sure where to find me they would just look for the animals and you'd see me trundling around out in the paddocks with just all these little fluffy and feathery heads bobbing around me. And, and in retrospect now as an adult and knowing more about myself and how I am in the world, it makes a lot of sense that I found a lot of solace in the company of animals, and possibly more so than humans. Uh, but at the time I guess it was just that natural pull to things that felt more like home.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 01:50
So do you think it was an innate connection that you had with animals?
More stories
This site is part of Kintsugi Heroes. Visit the main site for the full podcast. If any of these stories hit close to home, support is out there, you don't have to sit with it alone.
Read how we handle these stories ↗
Kintsugi Heroes · Registered Australian not-for-profit · kintsugiheroes.com.au ↗
This conversation includes the pied piper among animals, finding work that felt meaningful, matt leaves school at fourteen, from farm life to fighting professionally, meeting through martial arts and wolves and moving north and getting a horse.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 01:56
I think so, yeah. Especially now in the work that I do, and I see the way in which neurodivergent young people coexist with animals in a way that's just kind of unique. Uh, I definitely think that it was a very innate pull, um, and just a place that probably felt a lot safer and more homely than being in a very neurotypical human world, which, uh, isn't always super ideal for everybody. Um, and I think for me it was definitely probably not the, the best place of to always hang out didn't always feel super familiar or super comfortable. So yeah, that was, uh, in, you know, hindsight's 20/20, right? It makes a lot of sense now. Um, but I think it's just a little girl just following what felt good. That's what children do. So yeah, uh, but then as I got older, it shifted into more urban living, uh, a lot less animals, but always dogs and cats and other fluffy critters. Um,. And then obviously now we've 360'd the whole way, uh, back into, you know, a bit of all and everything in our world. Literally all and everything.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 03:11
Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 03:12
And can you tell us about your childhood or your adulthood before you met Matt?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 03:18
So, uh, in my very early 20s, um, I decided to relocate to Melbourne. So I had ambitions of a career in music business, um, that felt like a logical place to go as the hub of music in Australia. Australia. Um, got there and realized really quickly that the music industry was rapidly changing, and, and the kind of work I wanted to do in it wasn't really kind of going to work the way I'd maybe anticipated. And so I shifted out and, uh, ended up studying communications and then later marketing and, and moved into that world. Um, and it was still a brilliantly creative outlet, which was amazing. I worked my way up sort of relatively swiftly and was working very high up in marketing inside a variety of organizations when I had a little bit of this sort of, I guess, like a bit of an existential crisis of existence where whilst I loved what I was doing and I was working with amazing brands and products, I really didn't feel like I was putting things out into the world that were making people's lives and the world a better place. And I really kind of wanted to reconcile that. And So I kind of pivoted across into sort of health and wellness brands exclusively, um, which meant that I was, you know, doing really fun commercializing of research for CSIRO and all sorts of other wonderful things. Um, and then also meant I left an organization where I was really privileged to be able to sort of say, hey, I want to just up— at that time, pre-COVID was really not start, people didn't really work remotely, let alone interstate, um, when their— all of their staff and their whole teams were, you know, 2 and a half hours away by a plane. So, uh, I was really very fortunate to be able to sort of land where I did with great people and an amazing portfolio of brands that were making the world a healthier and better place. And, and subsequently meant that I could come and and set up in Queensland. So yeah, that's kind of what it looked like, very different to what it looks like now, uh, but you know, these things always happen for a reason. Yeah, I wouldn't change it for the world.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 05:31
And Matt, can you take— over to you now— can you take us back to your childhood and describe your life up into the point that you met Jessie?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 05:42
We met, yes, for sure. So sort of similar, similar younger start. My grandparents had a prop— was born and lived and had horses and cattle, had multiple dams and fish in the dam. So we would sort of spend a fair bit of time on their farm, um, and yeah, fishing down the back of the dams, jump hopping on horses and all that sort of thing. So from a young age, I really sort of really enjoyed horses, riding horses and doing that sort of thing. Um, as I got older the, and sort of moved away from the grandparents. We, I didn't have horses for a little while while I was doing my trade. I'm a diesel fitter by trade. So, um, I'll backtrack a little bit first. When I was at school, school was not like conventional school, was not for me. So I actually left school when I was 14, um, and then went west and ended up 6 months droving um, working on horse, like being on horses every day for 12 or 14 hours a day for, for 6 months. Yeah, so there was a thing you could do, you could leave school to go to TAFE, um, and then through the TAFE course I was doing a Certificate II in beef cattle and we had to find work experience. And all the people in my TAFE course went to like, um, Paddock Ponies and hobby farms all around Brisbane, and I like literally got the Country Life and was like, oh, we're looking for a jackaroo to You know, and I ended up, was supposed to only go there for a week and then I just never went back to TAFE. So, um, I just, yeah, really enjoyed it. Um, and then through that sort of period, realizing that there was no money in not having qualifications as a jackaroo. So I ended up going to ag college for a year to get my Cert III in beef cattle, which would bump me up the pay schedule a little bit. And then through, through 12 months at ag college, realized that the lifestyle was fantastic. But I was never going to own the farm if I stayed doing what I was doing. So rang up my dad who had a metal fabrication business and basically said to him, hey, what are the chances you can apprentice me? Um, to which he was like, well, I was waiting for you to ask. So at the end of the 12 months at ag college, I went back to Brisbane and then worked in the metal fabrication game for probably 4 years, got my trade. And then the day I got my trade. I think Dad thought I was going to take over the business at that point. I, um, with my fiancée at the time, ended up jumping in a ute and went to Mackay and we started a mine maintenance business in Mackay. So basically from the start of my trade to probably the first 2 years in Mackay, it was just in town and working. So didn't have animals, didn't have cattle, didn't have horses, just worked, um, and then we ended up buying a little farm outside of Mackay and then sort of got my passion back into horses and training horses and working with horses and, and all that sort of thing. So yeah, that was, um, that was that. Did that for probably 10 years, ended up over in Papua New Guinea working on oil and gas for ExxonMobil, um, and then in the gas fields for Chinchilla, uh, and then basically had a, had a a marriage breakdown, moved into a, like a one bedroom unit in the middle of Brisbane for probably 3 years. And then through that 3 years, that's when, yeah, kind of met Jess.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 09:11
I feel like we're missing a really big chunk in the middle there, which is we both started martial arts and that's how it actually happened. Matt started fighting professionally. That's probably an important bit to add.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 09:21
Yeah, sure.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 09:22
Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 09:23
I was going to ask how you met.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 09:25
Yeah, so through that period of, um, that 10-year period in Mackay, I'd put a lot of weight on working in the mines, or you can eat buffets in the camps, just, you know, sitting down welding, not doing too much work. So I ended up doing some training with a, um, a really high-level kickboxer, a New Zealand kickboxer, um, that fought in like Pride and all that sort of thing. He was an older, older bloke at the time. So yeah, every afternoon was in his little garage at the back of Blackwater and hitting pads, getting fit. And then I was like, I actually really enjoy this. So I signed up to a couple of amateur MMA fights in Brisbane and then just fell in love with the sport and basically, yeah, started fighting professionally. And then when Jess was in Melbourne before we'd met, she had started doing similar things. Then that's sort of how we met through social media. There was, you know, we had similar friends and friend groups and people that we knew and I was single and she was very attractive and I added her as a friend and we started talking.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 10:25
Yes. Yeah, we— I had become friends with your flight coach. Yeah, yeah. So that was that, and here we are with a zoo basically a few years later.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 10:34
Yes, human edgery. So Jesse, you moved up from Melbourne up to Queensland to be with Matt, was that—
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 10:43
I did, yeah. It has, um, a couple of older children and so it made a lot more sense me to relocate than him. Uh, and I am originally from up here. Yeah, so it wasn't a totally harebrained idea, but yeah, so I relocated up after we've been together for a little while, a pretty short while. So all my friends thought I was bonkers, but it's okay. Uh, and yeah, very quickly we, uh, started— I think we only really spent maybe 12 months living in the city, uh, before getting onto acreage. Um, part of my deal for Matt of me relocating is that I got to get a horse. Uh, and so we're now as civilly as possible. Um, yeah, and that— I came back from work one day and there was a horse in the paddock and it's just snowballed from then.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 11:24
So where did the idea of running a place of healing with, with animals and nature, where did that come from?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 11:30
It all— I mean, look, it, it, it came in a few ways. Um, one of the big pieces we really started to notice after we had been living on acreage for a while was that people would come and visit and just say, wow, like I feel so good when I'm here. You know, they would say, I just feel so— even for days after I visit, I just feel so zenned out. Uh, and, and more and more people would come and visit or whatever and sort of comment. And it started to become really abundantly apparent that the things that we were taking for granted every day, that, that was our normal, for a lot of people that was not their normal. And it was really so far detached from their normal that it was having a really significant impact on their systems. And then COVID landed.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 12:13
And just before COVID I'd wanted to get into mentoring. I've always really enjoyed like helping younger kids to just be better, you know, get to their full potential. And because I'd left school, I wasn't a ratbag kid. It was just school was just not for me. And it was like, well, you know, it's kind of like the analogy of, you know, you've got a penguin, a monkey, a duck. And a horse and the teacher's like, today we're going to climb a tree. Well, the monkey's going to do great, but the penguin's probably not, not so much. So I could really get on the same level as these kids that just didn't really enjoy school at all. So there's a foundation called Raise, the Raise Foundation, and they took mentors. You didn't have to have any degrees or anything like that. So I signed up for their platform, did all their little mini courses. The kid that I mentored ended up turning his school life around and just really enjoyed it. So after that I was like, I, I really want to do more of this work. Um, and we're— it's actually pretty funny because separately we were both— and I'm not sure what, um, Jess's catalyst was, but the mentoring was mine. And I was looking at these, like, I'm like, what, got 10 horses, you know, how can we sort of work with the horses, help people? So I was spending a lot of time sort of Googling equine therapy and equine psychotherapy and what's involved and businesses. And at the same time, Jess was doing the same thing, but with a different organization.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 13:39
And neither of us had told the other one. It was like our little felt that we're just like, oh, just get curious and see what this thing is.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 13:45
And then it was just an open day into like an intro into equine assisted therapy. So I said to Jess, I'm like, look, I've been looking at, um, this sort of stuff and there's an open day coming up. Would you be keen to go and check it out? And basically from there, it's just kind of snowballed.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 13:59
Yeah. And I think it was a combination of really becoming abundantly apparent how impactful being in open spaces and around animals is on humans, uh, combined with our own sort of, you know, pull towards being in some kind of helping industry where we were able to enrich people's lives and, and pass on our own lived experiences in, in ways for people that maybe weren't having the best of times. Um, and then yeah, COVID hit and it became even more abundantly apparent how detrimental to our physical and psychological wellbeing being stuck indoors is. Uh, and we were so profoundly insulated from that because we lived on this incredible piece of dirt in the middle of not nowhere, but really quite remote and And so kind of COVID happened, and I mean, it was bad, and, and we were seeing it play out, but we were so relative. I had a baby in the middle of it. We were relatively untouched because it was just, just another day of living with our animals in this space. But as it sort of— as the world began to reopen, it became even more clear, right? Okay, something's going on here. So in that window, we had both started studying and training and expanding our skill sets and normalizing it in that industry, thinking, okay, I think this is kind of what we want to do. But then after COVID and just seeing how much people had been impacted by not being around animals and nature, it really cemented that, no, no, we really need to be able to help connect these dots for people. Uh, and thus became Wolfpack Health and Wellness. We decided that we needed to be able to open the doors not just to friends and family to be able to come and hang out, uh, but be able to kind of do it in a structured way to be able to have the wider world come.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 15:59
Structured, legitimate way.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 16:00
Structured and legitimate, because I think within the industry as a whole, there's definitely lots of kind of people who maybe aren't quite as skilled as they should be to be able to offer services in a way that is physically and psychologically safe. But yeah, so the due diligence process for us was really important around education and skills. And then the sort of the last piece was kind of just bringing all the parts together. And opening the doors. And yeah, here we are a few years later and it's thriving, which is amazing.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 16:32
Wonderful. I love the name Wolfpack. Obviously it's your surname, but it's more meaningful than just being your surname. What does the name Wolfpack mean to you?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 16:45
It's a bit of a funny one actually, because it's our surname, but it's our made surname. So my surname was Eland. I had a bit of a falling out with family, and there was a lot of same sort of similar work we were doing. And when we'd first met, Jess had a wolf tattoo on her finger, and I had a wolf tattoo on my arm. So for us, the wolf, we just both liked that as an animal. Um, and then the first pet that we got together, Jess had Truck, um, was Ghost. And she's the closest thing you can get to a wolf in Australia. So she's an Alaskan Shepherd, which is a German Shepherd Malamute.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 17:21
Cross.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 17:22
She looks like, and she looks like, she looks like Ghost off Game of Thrones. Um, so the, it just made sense for us that our first business, which is still operational, is, um, Wolfpack Engineering and Metalworks. And then, yeah, when we were doing the, the health side of things, it sort of just made sense that the ranch we had was Wolfpack Ranch. And we just, yeah, yeah.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 17:42
And it has such beautiful parallels in this sort of idea of, you know, exactly, people think about a wolf pack. And, and, you know, they— and we talk in, you know, anecdotally joke around, you know, oh, you know, you found your pack, or you found your tribe, whatever it might be. And so for us, creating this space was very much about, you know, creating a community and a space for people to have their own little wolf pack. And, you know, that, uh, different structures inside of that too.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 18:12
Like the, you know, you can have the matriarch of the family, which is, you know, the wise wisdom. Then you can have the, the younger kids who are just playing, but really sort of visualizing that as a community. Yeah.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 18:22
And so it just, it worked, right? But again, it's so many of those funny serendipities along the way. And then one day you go, it's actually really cool and it totally works. So yeah, that's kind of how the naming convention happened. Um, and yeah, yeah, I like it.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 18:38
And to me it evokes a sense of belonging and protection and being, and being supported. As well, so I can see it's highly appropriate.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 18:48
Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 18:49
Can you tell, tell me about your animals in the Wolfpack? You have quite a menagerie.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 18:56
We do. So, uh, everyone always says, you know, so what have you got? And I sometimes think it's easier to say what we don't have because the list is narrow. Um, but what we do have is we have a herd of 13 incredible horses. Living here with us, and one miniature mule, uh, Marvin. And we have on the farm buffalo, we have cows, we've just recently welcomed some beautiful Valais black-nosed sheep, got pygmy goats, we've got 6 dogs, 3 cats, turtles, uh, bearded dragons, snake, uh, fish. Yeah, yeah, chickens, turkeys. Ducks. Yeah, I think that might be— yeah, there's a lot.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 19:43
What a wonderful place to visit and to live, I imagine.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 19:47
Yeah. Yes, it's amazing. There's a lot of poo, but other than that, it's divine.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 19:52
Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 19:53
Um, tell me about the buffalo. Why, why did you want to bring a buffalo into your pack?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 20:00
When someone says, why did you get buffalo, I just answer with, why not? Um, but our first buffalo, pretty funny. I got my tax return back and around the same time I got my tax return back, there was someone selling water buffalo on Facebook and I was like, that's cool. I want a water buffalo. So I reached out to the guy selling buffalo and, um, they actually catch them wild in the territory. Uh, and instead of just, you know, putting them, putting them down or whatever, they get a lot of them get repurposed for horse training. Um, so water buffalo have a lot more stamina because they're so, um, they're not as domesticated as beef cattle. You can train, um, your horses on water buffalo for longer, so they don't, they don't get used to the horses. So in beef cattle, when you work a beast, you know, after a couple of months, it's like, oh, I know what's happening here. So it just stands there and doesn't try and move or get away. So you want to just have turnovers quite high. On beef cattle. Um, with buffalo, you can train and train and train and train and train with your horses. And because they're so still wild, um, you get a lot more trainability out of a water buffalo. So the fella that was bringing them down from the Territory, every now and then he trains them and then he works his dogs. And then once they get like quiet, inverted commas, um, he sells them on to different people. So we ended up with a little, a little heifer, because I'm like, I'd rather a heifer than a steer. Like a steer, you can only really grow up and eat, but at least with a heifer we can find a bull and start breeding. Oh yeah, and then Jess broke her in using the Warwick Schiller horse training method.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 21:30
So I don't know if we broke her in, but we gentled her.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 21:33
Be quiet.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 21:34
Yeah, yeah, we did. So we sort of acclimated her into the human world. Um, and, and again, nervous systems are nervous systems for the most part in mammals. So in the same way that you might gentle a wild horse, uh, or a wild anything, it kind of works on buffalo. So Beatrice was quietened down that way, and she was our first one.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 21:54
And then through trying to find a bull for her There was a dairy in Maleny that, um, had a cow that was going to go to the meatworks because she was too quiet. So she would wander into the stalls to get milked and block up the whole, the whole system. So we ended up getting her, uh, and she had a little calf. She had a little boy calf, and obviously being related to the mum, we ended up growing him up, and then we swapped him out for an unrelated bull, and the journey of—
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 22:19
continues.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 22:20
Yeah, so now we breed our own water buffalo, and a lot of our breeding program now is, um, for meat consumption. So we've got an butcher shop and we do our own processing and yeah, of beef cattle and buffalo.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 22:32
So our goal here is to be as self-sustaining as possible. Um, and pretty close. I'm not a particularly good vegetable grower, but I have an amazing neighbor who is. But yeah, so that's kind of been part of the journey here was to be able to find a way that we could still kind of nourish ourselves in that way, uh, in a way that felt more ethical. And so, you know, we say that they have—
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 23:00
no, so we don't even— I've changed from that. I used to say they have an amazing life and one bad day, but now I just say they have an amazing life because the bad day they have, they don't even know they've had it. We're very holistic in the way that we farm too. We do a lot of carbon regeneration into the property, and our chemicals— there's no pesticides, there's no herbicides. A lot of the chemicals that we use on, or not chemicals, a lot of the things that we use on the cattle are all essential oils. So all the meat is basically is organic. Yeah. How the, some of the supplementing aids, because I can't guarantee what the farmers have put on their grass, but everything we do here is as organic as possible.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 23:34
Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 23:35
So, um, are all your animals in the pack, are they all involved in your healing programs or is it just the horses?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 23:42
There is. Distinctly by person and by animal. You know, quite often the work, especially with sort of, you know, teenagers and older, is really about the immersion in the natural world and that natural, incredible regulation of our systems that happens when you are outdoors with your feet on the ground or your bum on the ground and just the kind of the natural flow of things around us. And they become in themselves metaphors and teachable moments and, and things just kind of happen and you go, you can start paralleling, right? We think that there might be two guinea fowl that just decide to kind of do whatever it is that guinea fowl do outside. Or, or I actually, I was sitting on the deck here just doing an art piece, um, just yesterday and, and, you know, we were kind of processing some stuff and these guinea fowl just went bonkers right in front of us are just the most poignant moment. And, and so, you know, in some ways people go giddy foul, like, how on earth is that working therapeutically? But it was just— it could not have been more perfect in that moment for us to kind of be where we needed to be and what we were exploring. So, you know, the horses, for example, the way in which they might get involved tends to be, uh, often more intentional in that, you know, it will be a very specific way of engaging, whereas some of the other animals, like maybe it's the goats or the sheep or the buffalo, it's more about, you know, things that they will just present in moments that we can then talk to and around, and, or just their very presence. Uh, and, and sometimes for little people, it's just about exploring the farm and, and exploring what being in the farm is bringing up for them and what pulls curiosity and us then following that thread and pulling that in as a way to be able to explore what's happening for their inner world with the outer world and kind of seeing things. Because if someone notices something, you know, it's when we sit in our curiosity, it's like, I'm curious about what you noticed there. You know, they might have seen wrestling in a way that they then perceive as incredibly tumultuous and violent. No, it's so interesting because what I saw was play. So let's be in that exploration of what was it that felt so violent for you, you know, and, and so on and so forth. So, uh, sometimes really intentional and sometimes it's just the physical touch and the grounding touch of the different animals.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 26:19
And it's just the way nature shows up too, because there was that conversation, I don't know if it was me or you that we're having with a client, and basically they put their hand out, they were like, you know, and a leaf literally fell out of a tree. And then landed into their hand at a point where they were talking about something that it was like—
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 26:32
it was incredibly poignant. Yeah. So there's funny little moments where you go, I could not have timed that any more powerfully if I had tried, and it just kind of happens. Uh, so yeah, they all show up in the ways that they show up, and it is always perfect there in that moment. And sometimes it's just presence and observation, and sometimes it's very intentional. Um, but yeah, it really varies.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 26:55
So you, you both work with, with clients, or do you work, do you work as a pair or individually?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 27:00
Yeah, so we both individually, like, with our own clients. Um, and then we do, we do a lot of corporate work, so a lot of corporate team building. Uh, we've had the Defence Force here, uh, quite a few times to do like corporate team building days, but it's very, it's not egg and spoon race and happy sack race, and it's like really pinpointed equine workshops to help them grow as an organization. So in that, in that sort of, um, environment, we both work together and we normally get a couple of people that come and help Um, and then we do some other group things. So we've done quite a few group, um, like therapy days.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 27:36
And then with specific age groups. So, you know, I'm really passionate about, um, more resources for teenage girls. And so I have some really beautiful teenage girl programs I run. For Matt, he's really passionate about advocating for more men to lean into feelings and exploration around mental health and being in, holding space for each other in really healthy ways.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 28:00
And so, so yeah, I've got a free, I do a free fire chat for the community, um, the first Wednesday of every month where we basically just for an hour we sit around a fire and just to, you know, it's one of those things that, you know, hundreds of years ago, not even thousands, men would congregate in areas normally around a fire, um, and just being with that cohort of people and and seeing that, ah, I'm not alone in how I, or what I'm doing. You're like, the present day, we seem to just get up and we go to work. If we're lucky, we have maybe one or two friends that we can really lean on in times of hardship. But most of the time, a lot of men don't have that. And because we've been told you don't have emotion, you know, when I grew up, it was like, no, you don't cry. Girls cry.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 28:47
Boys don't cry.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 28:49
Cowboys don't cry. All that sort of thing. So we carry that right through into our adulthood. So when things get tough, we suppress it. We suppress it. We think that's supposed to be, which is normal to suppress. Um, but I really tried to get that sort of community and those people that feel like that suppression needs to happen and show them that it doesn't. You know, like I'm 6'4", cowboy, worked on the land most of my life, like a manly man, and I'm really trying to show even like young kids and like my kids that having— and it's still very hard for me to do— but having emotion is okay, and having outlet and, and not suppressing those feelings. So just trying to do that for the community to show them it's, it's— this is the space that it can happen. It can happen anywhere, but if you really— if you don't— if you feel ashamed for having emotion in front of, you know, spouses and kids, then this is a safe space where You have that feeling and you can talk about the hardship and it's, there's no judgment, there's no, uh, yeah, fantastic.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 29:48
There's something special about sitting around a fire, isn't there?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 29:51
Well, and that's why I do it. Yeah, because you just stare into the fire and people just open up because you're not white walls in a concrete building.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 29:59
It's like so much of the way we work is very much in that field of, you know, it's side by side. We're not sort of polar in front of each other like this, you know, in, in one-on-one therapy. And not always, but often it's a chair in front of a chair inside of this box. And, and I've obviously got a lot of bias, but for me that feels terrifying. Uh, whereas two chairs kind of side by side under a tree, you know, this, this openness, safety that, that creates. And we know that, you know, for men, side by side is a much more powerful way to be with and to process. But I think even for women that softness of, hey, we can be together in this. And, you know, therapy, yes, there's so much processing and deep work that happens, but also so much of it is practice for life. And so, you know, in those moments, like Matt was saying, where these men can really practice being deeply vulnerable and space for each other, they can— then that, that goes back into life, and they've had just, you know, I can be okay with this, and I can I can hold space, so now I can do this more for the people in my world.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 31:08
Yes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 31:09
Yep. Yeah. Wonderful. Gosh, your program sounds so, um, they're varied and versatile, but no doubt very satisfying for you. Can you retell any, any, any memories, any examples of clients whose lives have been significantly changed by their connection with animals and nature?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 31:31
Yeah, absolutely. Anything that we do share, obviously deeply de-identified, and that we do have full consent from clients to kind of talk through and around. Some of the biggest shifts I see is often in young people that work with us for prolonged periods of time. And, you know, these are shifts from deeply disengaged from family and the school system and really kind of on the edge of moving in towards, uh, like really dangerous territory of disengagement and, and moving into disruption with the law. And they come here and through working with predominantly the horses, but on the entire farm, the shifts that we see are really quite phenomenal in their capacity to be able to self-identify their own emotions and what's happening for themselves in moments, to be able to practice being in discomfort. And, and when I say discomfort, you know, I don't mean it's a hot day and we're outside, cuz there's definitely that element of resilience building, but We work very invitationally with the horses, so they can choose to participate, choose not to, especially before coming into the arena. But if they are with us in the arena and we're doing something with halter and rope, uh, part of, you know, the beauty of our herd here is that they run together as an entire herd, uh, and they are just a ragtag bunch of chaos. Um, very sort of, uh, people who are maybe a little bit more horse trainer-y come and they're like, your horses are proper feral. And I'm like, I know, it's perfect because is they're able to really show up as deeply authentically horse with people, and they're really good at saying no. And so, you know, if you've got a young person who really, you know, struggles at being with objection or struggles with the boundaries and constraints of what it is to be in school and in society and all of those bits and pieces, and they're trying to navigate with a 500+ kilo horse that's saying, "No, I do not wish to walk with you right now," that you can't force them, you know, like, and so they have to really be in the discomfort of, I had a thing I wanted to achieve and I can't get there because I can't drag this thing. And, you know, we don't just— we won't allow that kind of, you know, activity to happen. But even if they gave it a good tug, the horse is going to be like, hell no. Uh, and so they have to work out how to really be with that and be okay with that, and then work through that with the horse to be able to go, what does connection look like right now? How can I build this relationship with you to take that no and turn it into to a maybe or a yes. And, and what seems like a very simple thing when I describe it like that can be really quite profound for a nervous system that has lived in a state of conflict and a state of, you know, objection for a really long time, and that's playing out in their life repeatedly. So for them to be in that, in the container of so much safety that is this horse that isn't there to be a pain in the ass for any other reason than that, it just just felt like it, like it just comes from this beautiful organic place of just happiness within themselves to be able to say, 'No, I don't feel like doing that,' and they feel safe enough to do that. But then this young person go, 'Okay, well, what do I do now? Because I can't show up with my default, which is combat or violence or yelling or screaming or whatever it might be.' And they have to be in that and figure their way through it in lots of different ways. And then they walk out into life and go, you know, Maybe I don't need to show up in this next scenario in this way because I was able to do it all these other ways and I was really safe in that moment. And so maybe my system can reconcile that it is safe for me to meet this real-world situation in a way that is not combative or that is not violent or is not angry. Instead, it's negotiating and it's softness and it's gentle communication and so on and so forth. So That is on repeat, that style of shift. And it's, you know, profound disengagement from school to getting back into school. And love or hate the school system, at the end of the day, shift inside a young person to feel as though they've got enough safety inside themselves that they can go and be in that environment consistently is huge. And then obviously moving into more healthy, you know, community-focused ways of being that aren't You know, um, just delinquency and getting into crime and things like that. Just these huge shifts. So we see a lot of that. When we look more at our adults, it's the, the sentence we get a lot is, I've been to a lot of therapy and I feel like I'm going to therapy for the first time. Uh, you know, systems running into, I get to this place of processing that's really sticky, uh, and then I just never get any further. And really huge amounts of people moving through those places. And part of that would be, in my opinion, testament to the type of therapy we do here, um, which is Internal Family Systems. But the second layer of that is our container, which is the natural world and the horses and all the other animals.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 36:39
And they feel supported by everything, not just supported by us in that instance, in that therapeutic moment. They're supported by the trees, the grass, the environment, the whole environment. Environment, nature, everything. Like, it's just everything's holding while they're moving through this really difficult time. And that has, like, great power.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 36:58
And, and, you know, the horses show up in the most deeply profound ways. You know, it's this, it's this funny negotiation as a therapist of, you know, living in evidence-based and science and all of that, and then working in this way, which Sometimes makes no sense. Sometimes, often makes no sense, right?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 37:20
Like, and it's marrying these two places up and going, you know, someone will be sitting in this moment of, you know, or just profound sadness for something, and a horse will literally come up and just put their head into their lap.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 37:35
Yeah.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 37:35
And horses, like, it's something that they don't do on, like, it's not like, and we try not to say, gee, he never has never done that before, because then you don't want to have that stigma like, oh What's wrong? So, but you'll see, you'll, you know, like that horse does not do that.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 37:50
Yeah.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 37:51
And, or you'll have, you know, someone with no sense of community or, you know, I feel so alone. And then you'll like, then you, they look up and there's literally ponies and young horses will just be holding this person in this spacious container, you know, one at the front, one at the back, one on the side. And they're just like, you do have community.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 38:12
There's been these moments of, you know, like horses getting bitey and mouthy, like standing on a foot.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 38:18
Oh, I'm getting so overwhelmed. Yeah. In this like really anxious meltdown. And a horse will be like, stand on the foot, then like, holy shit, sort of say, oh my foot, and it just frees them straight back into their body.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 38:30
And right, yeah, it's really so incredible the way in which they show up. And as much as my sciencey sides want to be able to go, oh well, look, you know, there's confirmation bias and you'll interpret read into whatever you will, when you've done it for long enough, you start going, I can't science away. There's some other level of deep understanding that's taking place right now. And you know, HeartMath talks a lot about the way in which, you know, meet within our heartbeat, syncing and co-regulation and mirror neurons, all these bits and pieces. But there is this whole extra thing that happens, which is so deeply intangible when you do work. In a way that involves especially horses therapeutically. They're not therapists, and we don't ever want to anthropomorphize that level of responsibility onto them. But the way in which their capacity to be able to sense and then just interpret that and do something in that moment is really— the level of gratitude we hold for their capacity to be able to show up for humans is phenomenal because they, they're quite special.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 39:41
Do you find— you mentioned that the horses are invited to participate. Do you find that the horses choose the human?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 39:50
Yeah, so there's a few different ways in which invitation works. Um, often— well, I, I won't say often because it really is kind of day by day. Some days it will be taking clients out where the herd is just milling around in a big old paddock, and we just kind of wander and just see who comes and who goes and who they're drawn to. And absolutely, at different moments, different horses who I wouldn't normally kind of have thought would be interesting coming over will come over and really be curious to engage. And so that absolutely does happen. And there's moments where horses that I would sort of typically say, you know, this one doesn't often really enjoy maybe this particular kind of touch. So for example, We have a beautiful stock horse who loves to be— like, I wouldn't say he loves, he's very okay with touch, but he doesn't like to be brushed. And so, you know, and I'll make that known. I'll say, hey, like, you can ask him, but he may say no to brushes. Like, he will be very okay with you touching. He will lean into that. He'll come and seek that out. But if you bring brushes to the conversation, he might say no and wander off, right? But in other moments, having said all of that, that I've had moments where someone will wander over with a brush and he's like, yeah, let's do this. And I'm like, I've, yeah, I wouldn't have said that that would ever happen. Uh, and, and other horses in different and other interesting ways that based on my depth of understanding of them and their yeses and their nos in different moments with different people make total liars out of me cuz they do other things that I'm like, well, There you go. But it's like the biting or anything like that. I would never say that any of my horses are ever biters. I've got one little mini pony here, if you don't give him enough attention, will bite you on the bum. But total confidence of saying anyone can go out there, they're not bitey. But sometimes they'll just have these moments where they get really nippy with people, and I'm like, what's happening? For me, sometimes it's data about incongruence of what I'm seeing and hearing not matching something in their inner world, and the horse is really noticing that and creating space because they're not comfortable with it. Sometimes that's just data. I go, hey, is there something happening here? Like, what's your inner world telling you right now that you're not telling me in the outer world? Uh, but other times it's about them going, this person needs to get some boundaries and they're not listening to my boundaries and this is their boundary lesson. And yeah, yeah, it is. It's really interesting. But often if we're doing halter and lead work, uh, we might kind of have a vision in our head of You know, maybe this horse might be a really nice match for the kind of processing I know this person needs to do today or wants to do today. And we'll wander out with a rope and a halter. So we will hold it out and we'll say, hey, do you wanna come? This is kind of where we're at today. We'll literally have a conversation. Uh, and I don't have a single horse that's hard to catch, but if it's a no for them on that day, they walk off.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 42:48
And they—
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 42:49
horses that are hard to catch will walk in, and then often another one will catch.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 42:53
But like, for me, are there— I definitely have horses that are hard to catch. There's— I'm not like a guru when it comes to peace and love. So the horses can pick up on some of that and be like, oh no, don't go near that guy, he's going to chew our feet, or, you know, XYZ. I used to train horses the very conventional way, the old school cowboy way. And I have since changed that probably 7 years ago. But there's definitely that sense of aura around me that I would use to use horses as a tool, not work with. Yeah, I'll have an intention to go and work with like my stock horse and I'll walk over to him and he'd be like, nah, not today, mate. And then another horse that I can never normally catch will just come straight over and basically put his head in the halter and then for that session. Will be a really poignant teaching for someone I'm doing a, a session with. So it's, it's funny how it all works.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 43:48
Matt, you mentioned how your, your style of horsemanship has changed from the traditional way now to a softer way. What did you learn about horses that instigated that change of style, change of approach?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 44:04
Um, a lot of it was actually, um, one of our really close friends, Warwick Schiller. The way he works with horses. And he has a very similar experience. He used to, you know, train horses and, um, use horses and all that sort of thing. So, but he's then shifted into this like different way of thinking and feeling and being. And through listening to his podcasts and really doing a deep dive in the way he does things, really seeing the benefit, you know, like the way I used to break horses in would basically be, you know, a little bit of groundwork put a saddle on, they buck a bit, then you hop on, then they buck some more, then they stop, then you go forward, backwards, sideways, and then you start doing long pate rides. Um, obviously that way my body's fairly broken. And then like sort of seeing how, you know, Warwick was doing it and a few other people we started following and interacting with, realizing when you get to the hopping on point, they don't even buck, they don't do anything. And even to the point where when you put the saddle on for this first time, They don't, they don't buck, you know. So it's all that relationship building on the ground first that they go, I trust this person, so that when they do hop on me, it's not a holy shit, I've got a mountain lion on my back. It's a, oh, I now have this trust and relationship with, is on my back, and he only has the best intentions for me. So yeah, let's go and do this, this thing together.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 45:23
Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 45:24
So it sounds like that dynamic change from being a dominant, being a dominant figure over the horse. Now it's more like a, a mutual, a partnership with mutual trust.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 45:36
Yes. Yeah. Which, which works. It takes a lot longer to do, but you end up with a much better result at the end of it.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 45:43
But, and I think it's sometimes it's that kind of analogy around sometimes the slow way is the fast way. It's like, uh, if you, if you look at it in a linear fashion of day 0 to broke, broke, you might go, oh well, that was so many more days. But when you get to that other end, the number of issues that you had are basically not existent. You've got a horse that has a really well, really well-regulated nervous system, so they're not spooky and freaking out, and they're not— they're not deeply shut down and like at any moment going to do something unpredictable. They have so much trust in each other that you go, you know, all of those extra hours I would have had to spend later fixing all these little bugs that I created on day 2 and 3 don't exist. So yeah, it was worth those extra, you know, 20 days because I now then have a lifetime without any of those issues as opposed to forever having to go, oh yeah, it's fine, but I need to work through this issue. Oh, it's fine, but now I've got this other issue.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 46:44
So it's great when you're training for yourself, but when you're training horses or breaking horses for the public, they're like, why is it taking 6 weeks? I can get this done in 4. And you're like, yeah, you can, but it's not going to work out very well in the long run. So we don't— I don't do that for the public anyway.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 46:58
No. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 46:58
And better, much better for the horse's welfare, I imagine, doing it the way with the relationship built on, on trust rather than dominance. What would you like the audience to better understand about firstly horses, and then I'll ask you about animals in general? What would you like the audience to better understand about horses?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 47:17
Do you want to go?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 47:18
Well, yeah, I'll go first. It'd be completely different to you, Mary.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 47:21
Excellent.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 47:21
Um, but we, we, like, humans have been working and living with horses really for thousands and thousands of years up until maybe 100 years ago, 2 generations. So the disconnect that we have now with horses is really apparent when people do, they have got, they've got no interaction, they've had no interaction with horses, and then they come around horses. And they get that like relaxing feeling, you know, the, the magnetic field of the horse's heart and your magnetic field all intermix and interact with each other. And there's this like the science of it all, but that's what makes us feel so relaxed when we're around them. Um, but we had that as a human, as a, as, you know, as humans for so long. And I don't know whether or not we took it for granted, but at the time I'm sure they didn't because, you know, without the horse you wouldn't be able to play out the paddock. We wouldn't be able to get to town. So like, we really had this really special bond with horses, which we've lost in the last 200 years. So I suppose to let— to like, something for people to take away would be go and find a, you know, a good— even if it's somewhere where you can pony rides, just be around horses. Like, if, you know, if you're going on a walk and there's horses in the paddock, you know, don't hop in the paddock with them, but you know invite them over and, or try and find somewhere where you can have interaction with horses and just feel that magic that we get to experience every day.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 48:52
I think part of mine is absolutely to mirror that sentiment of— I probably split it into two courts because I feel like in horses there's two courts. There's either people who live and work with horses, whether they're hobby riders or performance equestrians or whatever, and then just the people that live in the real world that drive down the highway and go, oh, that was a pretty horse. And I think for that cohort is absolutely like Matt was saying exactly, there's a reason why you're innately curious to look at them. Like, yes, they're majestic and they're big and they're beautiful, and they're not like those in cats that we get to see all the time, but humans and horses have been inextricably linked for millennia. And so there's a reason why you are innately drawn towards them. And, and that's, that's okay, right? Like, that's a really beautiful thing. So in those moments, like, really be with that curiosity of, wow, it is really beautiful. What does that mean to me in this moment? Uh, and, and for people who work with horses, whether that be riding or, or just have them in their paddocks or whatever, I think, you know, Matt and I, we, we talk a lot especially at conferences and stuff about how in that space, the, the level of arrangement you have of what we call your inner herd will really dramatically impact your relationship with your outer herd. So, you know, in the metaphor of horses, it's how your inner world is running on any given day and in any given moment will really impact your ability to be with your horse in that moment. So if you are in a performance space and you're finding, I'm getting a bit stuck with something, or this something's not working, whatever it might be, obviously, yeah, rule out pain for your horse and rule out all the other sort of extraneous things that it could be. But also, like, just take a moment to check, like, what's happening for me? And, and is there a part in my system or something going on that's actually really fundamentally part of this blockage? Because those two things are inextricably linked and they cannot exist without each other. And I think as humans, we like to really externalize the problem. And, and sometimes it's the inner world that needs to be more in order. In order for that outer peace. And, and all the way then just down to a recreational hobby person with their horses. Oh, I can't catch my horse, or my horse always pins its ears at me, or, or whatever else it might be. It's like, okay, like that could totally be a thing to do with the experiences your horse has had, but also what's it sensing in you that you're not noticing in you, and it's responding to that. Stimulus. So it's kind of check your inner herd. It's like, am I showing up with all of my life baggage and not kind of parking it or, or being with it in a way that my horse can feel the congruence and the safety of that? Or am I actually a super anxious rider and I just keep shoving it down deeper? So then my horse, when I do saddle up, is like a jack-in-the-box waiting to explode because I'm like a jack-in-a-box waiting to explode, even though I don't admit that. And I think the more we can be okay with how interlinked those dynamics are, the better our horse-human times can be. So that would be my sort of one.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 52:07
Absolutely. Thank you. The alignment of the yin and yang, the inside and the outside world.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 52:15
Right.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 52:16
Just before we finish, what would you wish the audience would better understand about animals in general? In just a few words.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 52:27
Yeah. If you're drawn to be with them, don't ignore it. There's a reason your nervous system and your body wants that and really honor that in any way that's safe and appropriate for your life. Um, and I think, you know, there's this beautiful, uh, analogy that our friend Kansas Carradine shared with me, and I might totally destroy it, but it's this idea that the natural world, it, it doesn't rush, it doesn't fight back, it doesn't hustle and bustle and tussle, but it gets everything done and it gets exactly where it needs to be in exactly the right moment. Uh, and that could be trees, that could be chickens, dogs, cats. Like, there's incredible lessons that we can walk away with as humans just by really slowing down enough to notice the way our non-human counterparts show up in the world and with each other. You know, a dog can go through the most deeply, profoundly traumatic upbringing, yet still be able to find the capacity to love and heal. You know, there's so many incredible lessons for us as people just by looking at our non-human counterparts that we can walk away with and be better for each other as humans, but also be better for the natural world around us.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 53:49
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well said. And finally, how can the audience get in touch with you or find out more about your services?
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 53:56
Yeah, so our website's always a great place to start, and that's just wolfpackwellness.clinic. Um, we're on Instagram at Wolfpack Wellness and Facebook at Wolfpack Health and Wellness, and our private pages are all accessible through there as well. Um, so yeah, they're kind of good starting places. A lot of what we do is on there. A lot of what we do is not on there as well. So if there's something that you're kind of curious about or want to know more about or anything, just get in touch. Like, we are always open for chat and for you to connect.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 54:27
And we don't just do therapy. Like, we've got farm stays. People come and hang out with horses, campfires. We've got an Airbnb on the farm. So yeah, this country resets and it doesn't have to be all about therapy. Or people can book in a weekend of Airbnb and intensive therapy at the same time.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 54:42
Yeah. And we, we are really aligned with a charity called Hooster Healing. And so, you know, there's, there's programs through Hooster Healing to be able to create more access to equine-assisted therapy to, um, cohorts that don't have access to it. So through veterans and those with financial struggles and geographic struggles. So, you know, there's, there's lots of spaces that we are in and around and always eager to meet new people and collaborate and, and talk and, and things like that. So Yeah, wonderful.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 55:15
Yep, sounds like a wonderful program, wonderful place you co-created. Thanks very much for your time and for sharing your stories.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 55:24
Thank you so much for having a listen to us ramble.
Matt & Jezey Wolf (Guest) · 55:30
Animals and Us is a production of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Xavier Rudd for his permission to use Follow the Sun as our theme music. For this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsukiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.
You don't have to be in crisis to call.
Subscribe
Spotify
Apple