Martin Stark
Overcoming Health Issues and Prejudice to Promote LGBTQ+ Rights in Boxing
Martin built courage as a habit after hiding his sexuality for sixteen years and nearly dying from chronic illness.
Hear this story
Kintsugi Studio
Martin Stark
Martin built courage as a habit after hiding his sexuality for sixteen years and nearly dying from chronic illness.
Hear this story
Martin Stark spent sixteen years hiding who he was. He knew he was gay at eleven or twelve, in the mid-1980s, when HIV/AIDS dominated the news and fear shaped every message about what it meant to be gay. Fear kept him silent through his teenage years and into his twenties. When he finally came out at 27, it was not because the world had changed overnight. It was because he moved to Australia, found work in a supportive environment, attended Mardi Gras, and felt his family had his back. Safety and acceptance made it possible to be himself.
Then, in 2006, his body nearly killed him. Gallstones led to pancreatitis, septic shock, collapsed lungs, and a tracheotomy. Months later came the diagnosis: Addison's disease. His body does not produce cortisol, the hormone his immune system needs to survive. Over the next eighteen years, he spent time in hospital seventy times, had four major surgeries, and lived with constant, grinding pain. Rather than break him further, the diagnosis taught him acceptance. He could not fight it. He could only move forward.
That acceptance became the ground for everything that came next. Years after nearly dying, Martin took up boxing as a way to process PTSD. He discovered he was good at something he had once dismissed as barbaric. Boxing became his way of fighting for himself, his voice, and his community. In 2020, he founded the World Gay Boxing Championships, a not-for-profit dedicated to creating safe space for LGBTQ+ boxers and their allies. Today, Martin builds courage as a habit. He teaches others that fear is information, not a stop sign. His work shows that the cracks in our lives, when held with care, can lead to something stronger.
“My definition of courage: take ownership of fear, move forward with confidence and resilience. We've all overcome challenges, and from that challenge we get wisdom.”
“Fear is an excellent source of information, but fear also is part of our conditioning, how we react to certain situations, what we accept, what we are prepared to accept.”
“When you see people in authority being angry and that anger being more widespread and anger being manifested in, oh, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't be doing that, around rejections of somebody's identity, that just shows that being who you are and taking the risk of rejection of who you are, your family, your job opportunities, your abilities to achieve in life, to have a meaningful relationship with somebody else, we see the fear of being, being who you are.”
The hero, today
Martin came out at 27 because the conditions around him changed: he moved to Australia, worked in a supportive environment, attended Mardi Gras, and had family backing, showing that safety and acceptance are what allow people to be themselves. Fear is an excellent source of information, and the four responses to it (fight, flight, freeze, fawn) shape our behaviours over years, so taking ownership of fear rather than letting it own you opens doors you would otherwise miss. Martin has had 70 hospital admissions and major surgeries managing Addison's disease, and what he learned is that accepting your condition makes what comes next easier, because you have no choice but to move forward anyway. The World Gay Boxing Championships exists because Martin listened to boxers, sports experts, trans athletes, and allies, followed evidence and the IOC framework, and built a policy through community consultation, not through ideology. Money drives what gets normalized in sport: when Saudi Arabia invested billions, combat sports shifted tone on homophobia, showing that institutional change follows incentives, not public values alone. Martin's advice to anyone struggling with identity or wanting to box is simple: try your local boxing gym, because it will not take long to find a welcoming community.
Yes. Martin Stark is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Martin came out at 27 because the conditions around him changed: he moved to Australia, worked in a supportive environment, attended Mardi Gras, and had family backing, showing that safety and acceptance are what allow people to be themselves.
Fear is an excellent source of information, and the four responses to it (fight, flight, freeze, fawn) shape our behaviours over years, so taking ownership of fear rather than letting it own you opens doors you would otherwise miss.
Martin has had 70 hospital admissions and major surgeries managing Addison's disease, and what he learned is that accepting your condition makes what comes next easier, because you have no choice but to move forward anyway.
John Milham (Host) · 00:00
Kintsugi Heroes acknowledges funding that was made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at cbf.org.au. Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear. In this episode, John Milham is joined by Martin Stark, a resilient advocate for the LGBTQ+ community in boxing. Martin's journey began with serious health issues and a diagnosis of Addison's disease, leading him to boxing as a means of self-defense. Overcoming public hostility and systematic barriers, Martin found the World Gay Boxing Championships to create a safe, inclusive space in the sport. He describes how he turned personal challenges and trauma into advocacy, driving change for an inclusive and supportive community. Enjoy this one with Martin Stark. So welcome, listeners, back to Kintsugi Heroes: Stories of Mana, and today we're, um, taking a or an international flavor, bringing a man who is known in many places into the spotlight, the Kintsugi Heroes spotlight, where we ask him questions and listen to his story, which is an extraordinary sort of interesting and challenging set of events that he has brought into service for others. The experience he's had himself, he's created so much stuff around putting that to good use, making lived experience work, if you will. And that's Martin Stark. Martin, welcome to Consumer Heroes.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 01:57
Welcome, John. It's lovely to join you and to be able to share my story.
John Milham (Host) · 02:03
It's been a bit of a journey getting you here, and that's our fault. It's like one of those things where we allow busy to be unresourceful. But I'm so glad to finally have caught up. And I guess Um, your background is varied and there's many drivers, right? I suppose we could talk about the themes today before we introduce, you know, before we get a picture of where you've come from, right? And, you know, your themes is, you know, overcoming illness, overcoming, you know, social barriers to your success, overcoming, um, some challenges in life, both health and, and, and and socially and turning that into the energy of service, the energy of participation, connection with community. So how did that come about? How did that become the themes of your life?
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The World Gay Boxing Championships exists because Martin listened to boxers, sports experts, trans athletes, and allies, followed evidence and the IOC framework, and built a policy through community consultation, not through ideology.
This conversation includes welcome to martin stark's story, courage as part of his dna, coming out at 27, knowing he was gay at 11 or 12, boxing as fight, not flight and diagnosed with addison's disease.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 03:01
I guess I was always what I was called part-time confident and I was being more courageous than what I gave myself credit for. And that, that was a theme in my life. So you see right now I'm sharing my pronouns, he/him, and I do that in the form of allyship. And I'm also an I because at the start of every podcast or interview, I acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land where I currently am, the Gammaragal people, and pay respects to elders past, present, and emerging. Now, I've always had courage, it's really been part of my DNA, and it's really been an ally. And as prior to kind of recording this conversation where we're talking about allyship, and I talk about allyship in 4 simple steps, and the first one is education, educating yourself and others, um, messages, speaking up and just really engaging with the community. And I think for me, for my life, it's always been community has been also been part of it, but also speaking up.
John Milham (Host) · 04:11
Why, like, when you talk about allyship and the steps involved, you know, we come to wisdom through not our success, but our often our struggle and failure and obstacles, right? So what obstacles were you faced as a young person, right, as a kid? What did young Martin Well, what journey did take— took him to the wisdom of Allyship?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 04:34
I guess the biggest barrier was being able to come out of the closet, and I didn't come out the closet until I was 27.
John Milham (Host) · 04:41
So, wow, that's quite, quite late, you know. Really, was that, you know, what were the factors involved in coming out?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 04:48
I think fear, you know, fear of wanting to be me and not being rejected. And, you know, my family were pretty much waiting for me to come out, so that, that an issue. But if we go back to the late 1980s, I was, I was 14 and I was dealing with teenage asthma and really knowing that I was gay. But at the same time, that was the height of the HIV/AIDS crisis. It was so much negative commentary in the media. It was just so toxic in the media. And the environment was one of, let's not have an environment where people feel it's comfortable to be gay. How can I be who I want to be? Hiding was the easiest thing to do.
John Milham (Host) · 05:35
14 is such an age where identity is your entire kind of, you know, reason for being, right? Trying to establish and form your identity. All of those social messages telling you that you shouldn't be something you felt was real, how did that— did you feel different, isolated? Was that a burden you carried, or was that just—
Martin Stark (Guest) · 06:01
it was a burden for years, you know, for, for years and years. I think I realized I was gay at the age of around 11 or 12, so like 1986, 1987. And then it was just consistent throughout, especially within, within the media. During that time, it was a very different age. So I used to watch EastEnders, which was the biggest soap opera in the UK. You know, more than 10 million people watched every episode. And there was a gay character, Colin. And then Colin gave his boyfriend of the time a kiss on the forehead. And I call it forehead gate. And it was outrage when media— now if you think about the late '80s, so what was the trade of mainstream television, you know, sex, violence, drugs, everything. But why would one peck on the forehead cause all of this outrage, but everything else didn't? And you know, it was all the sexism, the racism that was taking place even then, but it was far worse than what it is today. But that was the biggest news story that resonated. So that instills a lot of fear.
John Milham (Host) · 07:14
How does fear shape a young person? Like at 14, that's that transition where you're becoming, you know, you need to solve some of those identity issues to become a bloke, right? To go on and say, oh, this is going to be me in the world as an adult. How does fear change those questions?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 07:35
So, I mean, fear is an excellent source of information, but fear also is, is part of our conditioning, how we react to certain situations, what we accept, what we are prepared to accept. But there's also the manifestation of fear. So I was using the example of the media. So when you see people in authority being angry and that anger being more widespread and anger being manifested in, oh, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't be doing that, around rejections of somebody's identity, that just shows that being who you are and taking the risk of rejection of who you are, your family, your job opportunities, your abilities to achieve in life, to have a meaningful relationship with somebody else, we see the fear of being, being who you are. And I think that comes back to the conditioning. And with fear, there are generally 4 responses, like fight or flight is probably the ones that are commonly known, but there's also freeze, you know, you're struck with fear. There's also fawn, which is rolling up in a ball. So rolling up in a ball is really rejecting who you are and hiding who you are. Freezing, being scared, you know, fight or flight is very much, well, I decided to become a boxer and I'm fighting, but in having that, that ability to be who I am. But, but fear is a strange one, but I, I see it is guiding our decisions in deciding what we are and we aren't going to be doing.
John Milham (Host) · 09:14
I love that view, um, and you know, fight, flight, freeze, and fawn, often people don't understand that, you know, like they take them for the words, but of course our behaviors over time are shaped by that. Like choosing to be a boxer, which is something else you, you took on as a young person, and indeed have sort of followed through with that. Is that, um, fight or is that flight, right? You know, like, it's kind of more confusing.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 09:43
Well, for me, for decades it was flight because I, I never considered boxing a sport for me. It was almost on the lens of being barbaric. But it absolutely transformed my life and turned into a base as a fighter, but fighting for the community, fighting for what's right, but also fighting for Martin, Martin's voice getting out there. So sometimes we, when we let fear own us, not owning the fear, we miss out on opportunities. We are the ones who lose out more than anybody else. So today on social media, there'll be some kind of uproar. Don't pay attention to it. And then you see all of these comments. And if it's important to you, why do you take— pay attention to the comments and not focus on what's important? Because in a few days, what's been on social media will be forgotten about. It will be something else. But don't fear other people's reactions if those reactions don't want the best for you and for you to succeed.
John Milham (Host) · 10:44
What's the cost of hiding yourself at that age?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 10:48
Years of mental anguish, mental health, not being living life to the fullest, negating your own happiness for something else.
John Milham (Host) · 11:00
And do you— like, there's a lot of, you know, it's a lot different these days, but there's still a lot of activism about, you know, stigma and, and, you know, we even political discrimination. Do you think it's changed that much, or is, you know, like, where does the fundamental discrimination come from?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 11:20
The fundamental discrimination really comes, comes from fear. Fear of acceptance, fear of another person being different. Also, there's institutional fear. It comes down from it. So, you know, the Bible says many things about gay people. And right now we still have the church as the ability, the ability to discriminate, and that the fear of taking that away sometimes gets more commentary than actually taking that discrimination away. I think fear also plays into— if you look at the structure of society, who's in control, we elect a government, there are leaders of organizations, there's the culture in an If you want to change something, it's the fear of actually speaking up and trying to be disruptive of change. But when you look, there's a change of government, there's a change in policy. We the people decided we want to change in direction. So it's actually taking ownership of that fear and wanting something better. And it is tough, but that's where my definition of courage, taking ownership of fear and moving forward with confidence and resilience take shape.
John Milham (Host) · 12:35
So almost taking that forward, when did you feel like— how was your family? And if they knew, waiting for you to come out, was there support? Was it safe to be you?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 12:47
Yeah, it was, because obviously there's the things in society and then there's what's at home and the signals that you're getting. And I think and quite wisely, is people create an environment where it's comfortable for you to come out. And it's when you are ready and you're comfortable. We all have our own journeys. So knowing that you say it's a safe space or a brave space— and again, very different in the late '80s to the '90s when things started to change socially, to the early 2000s, which is a very different environment because the media had changed, governments had changed, attitudes had changed. So I think sometimes you just need to create a space for people to be themselves and accept their own journey.
John Milham (Host) · 13:32
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. What was, um, yeah, you talk about allyship. What was great about, you know, when you did find that journey? Obviously, you know, 27, you've got some level of social confidence, right? What, what was different in your life when you— so that you then came out and then experienced a different reality?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 13:54
What was different was where I was working and where I was living. So I was living in Australia then. I come from a small town in the northeast of England called Grimsby. It's very sort of the earth place. People are very kind, working, accepting, but there was no gay scene. There was a very limited, there were no places to go. And my first job from leaving university, full-time job, was working in the call center as a team manager. Like peers and the, and the staff were very accepting. But when I come back to the conditioning and the hierarchy, my manager was very old school. He started his career in the 1960s, lots of gay jokes, and then his, his peers were very much the same. So when you hear from your manager, from his peers and everything else, that's where the fear comes in because coming out could have been career limiting. That's the fear. Whereas when I was living in Australia for the same company, it was a very different environment. Colleagues being very accepting, going to Mardi Gras, being, being the one saying, why are people being homophobic? You see the difference. Then living in Sydney, favorite city in the world to live, the best city in the world to live, a very different environment. And that's, I think, where the conditions, where countries for me to feel comfortable to come out and have a support network from my family in the UK, would also have a support network where I worked, but also have a support network of friends. That was the difference.
John Milham (Host) · 15:27
So Martin, that's not, you know, you were out in Australia when you got, um, when you were diagnosed with Addison's disease, isn't it? Yeah.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 15:36
Yeah. So 2006, I'd just become a permanent resident. So I actually left British Telecom. I'd been there for 8 and a half years, wanted a new challenge. And went to the UK for a couple of weeks to introduce my husband to the family, or my now husband to the family. But I had gallstones blocking my liver and ended up getting pancreatitis, septic shock, collapsed lungs. I was in two induced comas, had a tracheotomy. There's my tracheotomy scar. This is how I talk when I use my normal voice because there's damage to my vocal cords. Then came back to Australia, had major surgery, I wasn't recovering, and I was diagnosed with Addison's disease. So my body doesn't produce the hormone cortisol. Cortisol is your body's stress hormone. It's what your immune system needs. So in the event of like a cough, cold, major incident, you need cortisol. My body doesn't produce it. Now, as we're recording this, a couple of weeks ago, I almost died from Addison's disease. I was, I was in hospital and we have such an amazing healthcare system, you know, paramedics arrived, took me to emergency, getting treatment. And then my blood pressure dropped to quite low levels within a 24-hour period. And the nurses realizing something was up called the ICU rapid response team twice. So within 24 hours, the ICU rapid response team were there within minutes stabilizing me.
John Milham (Host) · 17:13
So how did that, that change to like, did that become a thing where you're like, were you, how did you deal with the long-term chronic illness diagnosis? Did that be introduce another element of fear or disappointment?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 17:29
What, like It brought a beautiful word, acceptance. I think accepting things always makes what you do next much easier. Because I had no choice but to accept in some shape or form, because I had to learn how to take medication, what to do in the event of adrenal crisis, when I would need additional medical care. I had over 70 hospital admissions over the last 18 years. I've had many— 70? That's extraordinary. Yeah, you know, I had 4 major surgeries. Every year I have radiofrequency pulsed through my abdomen because I have nerve ending damage. That switches off pain for a year. Pain which would stop me from enjoying life to the max, being able to go to the gym, do the things that I do. So it taught me how to accept things and move forward, but also moments of self-care when that—
John Milham (Host) · 18:27
when I need to prioritize It's a constant in people's life. Well-being has such a position in the community at the moment, right? It's a great focus. How do you feel about seeking well-being and seeking self-care and strategies for good health when all the messages seem to be around beauty, performance, maximizing everything, optimizing everything. If a meme image of, say, 23-24 would pop out, it would be a gym rat, right? Or somebody in activewear doing stuff. When you're dealing with long-term chronic illness, do you feel the gap?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 19:17
Yeah, I explain it this way. Focus on the why before the how. So on social media, this is the gym routine, this is the product, this thing, this, this solves— so on the how. But, but the reason why, okay, why do you want to have a certain procedure? Because it might improve the way I look and feel. I mean, if that's the thing, that's great, it's probably the right way. Or is it because I had a lack of confidence and having this procedure means I'm going to be prettier? I just don't think that that's the right way forward. The gym, going to the gym because I want to improve my health, I want to improve my metabolism so I can reduce weight and, and do that sustainably. So that's where I really focus on, on the why. Me leading a healthy lifestyle is important because if I don't, it increases my chances of having an adrenal crisis. Exacerbating my health conditions. And I focus on some noise and some— I focus on the sound, not the noise. That's what I want to say. So the noise is the social media, beauty, this, the gym, do this, do that. That's all noise. Whereas the sound is, let's focus on improving your health and well-being. Doing this, it reduces your stress levels. So I think The why is so more important than the how. When you focus on the why, then you find the right how.
John Milham (Host) · 20:47
Yeah. And you talked about acceptance. I find it really fascinating that the only way to learn and practice acceptance is to have stuff go wrong.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 20:57
Yes, to a certain extent, but there's learning from others. What wisdom can you get from other people sharing their stories? And we're in a world now of abundance where you can get so much free material— YouTube, social media, newsletters, etc. You can learn from other people what they have experienced, their life lessons.
John Milham (Host) · 21:22
Yeah, and, and of course, um, you talk about storytelling and the power of sharing that information and, and also listening to it. What is, what's the, um, you know, the why of, of sharing your story and, and sharing your voice?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 21:41
It's so, for me, I think my purpose is to inspire courage and to help people in organizations make courage a habit. And a big part of my purpose is ending homophobia in sports. Now, I set up the not-for-profit World Gay Boxing Championships in 2020. The idea came to me in my bedroom during lockdown in COVID. I was already talking about the World Gay Boxing Championships in 2019, but the idea to set up as a not-for-profit was one in my bedroom. I've delivered the world's first two boxing competitions for the LGBTQ+ community. I, with the assistance of an LGBTQ sporting charity and following the IOC framework, came up with a trans policy enabling trans people to safely participate in boxing at the World Gay Boxing Championships. Now, one of the biggest news stories of 2024 was boxing at the Olympics. I called out Jake Paul and J.K. Rowling in the media for their bullying of a box— of a woman, calling a woman a man. JK, warning for all the bullying. Now, there was all the furor about the Olympic boxing, and my point was, I know this space very well because I've been working in this space. A community consultation, listening to other people, taking different views into account. Boxing experts, straight boxers, trans boxers. Following the evidence, so actually can't get an evidence-led policy. The IOC framework talks about all of those things. So, like, she was— all the rhetoric about trans people in sports, well, read the IOC framework, read what it actually says, because that's what sports should be doing: education, research, community consultation, enabling people to participate. I think it's like a millionth of a percent of people will ever participate in the Olympics, right?
John Milham (Host) · 23:51
And, you know, oh, 1% of those people will have, you know, non-binary, you know, classifications, right? So, like, it's hardly a big issue, is it?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 24:01
How about the issue of allowing all people to feel comfortable to go for a run, to go to the gym, to join a club and train without being harassed, without having to fear, am I going to be a victim of transphobia here? Will people respect who I am or will they bully me? And I think that's where the world is swung this way, where bullying is being normalized.
John Milham (Host) · 24:27
I think it was, you know, like that issue was almost ridiculous, you know, in its sort of misunderstandings and and bias, right? But that means like the, the issue is more about, you know, by, you know, the expression of biases than it is about sport. Is that— surely it's not about sport really?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 24:53
Well, I'll tell you how silly it was. So in 2021, the Turkey Olympics, those boxers competed. They lost. I know one person who actually fought Imani Khalif and has beaten Imani Khalif. And this person, she shared it on social media. She said, stop bullying her, I beat her, right? Now, the IOC president was called the chief sodomite by the president of the International Boxing Association. So the international— for the politics of boxing, The International Boxing Association was discredited. Gazprom was still sponsoring the International Boxing Association post the invasion of Ukraine. Now suddenly these blood tests are released a few weeks before the Olympic Games. Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I, I You know, I, I think it's very strategic. And had people actually been listening— well, how about the boxers? They've been competing for years and years without an issue.
John Milham (Host) · 26:07
The issues isn't about, um, you know, the arguing around science of, of transition or whatever. It's really the issue is about, you know, you know, the politicization of sport, right? Or, you know, you know you know, corruption at the highest levels of sporting administration, right? And then far more be, you know, important issues to discuss which are not discussed.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 26:32
And Piers Morgan, JK Rowling, Jake Paul, Logan Paul, right? And calling these people out. The president of the International Boxing Association made the most homophobic slur to the president of the International Olympic Committee. Why does that get a free pass? Why is it up to people like me to call that out? Why is homophobia in sport, in boxing, getting a free pass? It comes back to why. Why is somebody doing this? What's their purpose?
John Milham (Host) · 27:09
So in some ways, right, so, you know, successful events you've organized with, you know, do you call it gay boxing? Is that—
Martin Stark (Guest) · 27:20
oh, I mean, I just call it boxing. I call it the World Gay Boxing Championships. And, and I've said from the outset, it's for the LGBTQ+ community and allies, because we welcome everybody, and allies are always welcome. Gay Games started in 1982, and straight people participated. And I think that's so important with this community building. You invite other people to join you. And that's how you break down barriers. That's how you change hearts and minds.
John Milham (Host) · 27:48
I think the plus is very important, isn't it? The plus can also be, you know, straight and others.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 27:56
Well, look, I stop at LGBT. I do sometimes get IA plus, but LGBTQ plus and you're fine. A means asexual, but it has also meant allies in the past.
John Milham (Host) · 28:11
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 28:12
And I, I think it's so important that we, we thank our allies, we welcome our allies, we support our allies in everything that they do.
John Milham (Host) · 28:21
What's been the best thing about, you know, being, um, you know, sort of immersed into that? Because, you know, creating an event that is, you know, trying to force its way into the understanding, acceptance, and and encouragement of the community is a bit like fighting, is it? It's like, you know, it's kind of a parallel. Um, the boxing competition has to fight its way into the, into the calendar. What was that like?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 28:50
Did that over—
John Milham (Host) · 28:51
you know, what, did that consume you? Did you feel like it was worthy or taxing or—
Martin Stark (Guest) · 28:56
oh, look, I mean, I, I share about it in my, in my book Courage Your Walk. I can share my experience of the World Gay Boxing Championships coming out and different 6 pillars of courage. I'll tell you, in 2023, I had a really bad— in 2020, I had really bad depression. In 2023, when the World Gay Boxing Championships were happening, I wanted it just to be over. I was so depressed. So they— my moment was like one of really, I wish depression had had gone away, you know, had been knocked out. And I took the game, the competition to Chicago and it was an exhibition at a gay boxing gym in Chicago and had CBS News down for 5 hours. I threw the ceremonial opening pitch for the Chicago Cubs at their Pride game. There were a million people watching online. There were about 10,000 in the stadium. There were like a million people watching online and I have to say, all kind of went a little bit towards Sydney, not necessarily towards, but one of the only Australians to ever throw the ceremony opening pitch. But I think the biggest thing has been impacts, impact on people. So the impact on giving people an opportunity, speaking to a mum, seeing her daughter's box for the first time, seeing somebody, a 17-year-old box and then feel comfortable speaking on a mic, having the confidence to then share their story on the mic. This is what people don't know, and I'm going to talk in, in general terms here to protect people's identities and their safety, but also boxers in parts of the world where they're not out, giving hope, being able to provide safe space, conversation, guidance, and support. Also, and again, I'm going to be very general here to protect the individuals, also having conversations with people in the boxing world who are covert eyes, who if they speak up, their safety is at risk, but also allies behind the scenes, like parts of the world where it's illegal to be LGBTQ+. The conversation is there happening. That's the impact. But also the impact of challenging, and I'll be very careful what I say here. There's one organization in boxing, their entire board voted to provide a statement of support. A month later, they withdrew that. No, I think it's because of what's been happening in politics. Now, I'm going to be very careful what I say here. Also, there's one organization which has said they won't allow World Gear Boxing Championships, they won't endorse or sanction it. I'm going to be very careful here. So you have a CEO of an organization that could do something is blocking it. Not mentioning names here for my own protection. The book of a governing— it's not one of the big governing bodies. It's not like the W or the I. It's again, who responsible, could be doing something and has backtracked. So that's the impact of, well, I know the impact of the conversations is, well, yeah, there's a lot of work to be done. There's institutional barriers here. And those conversations, and I'm very careful what I say in public, so I don't name Jane, but using it as an example, is that's where the real work needs to be done.
John Milham (Host) · 32:38
So this obviously will be, um, you know, having a voice, and this is a platform for your voice to speak to specific issues, right? I, I, I don't get it, Martin. Can you help me understand? If, say, in Australia at times, which is as blokey a culture as we, you know, as any culture, has been in the past, right? And yet overwhelmingly the public agitated and accepted a plebiscite that says we support, say, same-sex marriage, right? Um, and that kind of energy for public support of equality, at least in the, the— you know, it's— there's always room for improvement, but at least in many ways equality is the direction we're going towards, you know, in the acceptance of, say, same-sex relationships and so on. Um, if that's the general feeling in the public, why are institutions putting up such barriers to making these things run-of-the-mill, right?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 33:45
So within sport, we've got to take sport versus general society, because in sport there's a lot of drive on money. Um, where the money is coming from, the fan base, how accepting the fans are. Now, if we look at football in the UK, to soccer, for 11 years plus there's been the Football Versus Homophobia campaign. For 11 years, the FA have been involved. Now, some people criticizing the FA for backtracking, but I think the FA have been doing sterling work. There's the Rainbow Laces campaign, which has been going on again here in Australia for many years. Now, the GB boxing team, they wore rainbow laces recently, you know. So you see, you've seen that grassroots. But let's start to look at the money, where the money is. Now, within combat sports and boxing, more conservative fan base, in my view. Now, UFC, from 2011 They were running an anti-homophobia campaign in 2011. From around 2019 to 20, even 20, 20, 22, they were running Pride campaigns. They were actually issuing Pride merchandise, right? In 2017 or even 2018, UFC were actually sponsoring a participation in the New York Pride parade. Right now, the last few years, we've seen UFC basically normalize homophobia. John Strickland has been making the most abject homophobic remarks. We've had other UFC staff. Dana White basically says, oh, they're freedom of speech, who am I to say anything? Whereas 10 years ago, Dana White was saying, no, homophobia is wrong. It's wrong to say— so there's been a change. And now within boxing, combat sports, where's a lot of the money right now? Is in Saudi Arabia. We're talking $5 billion being invested into USC. But so you see that. So is it profitable to talk about homophobia? No. Where's the money? Where's the attention going to? That's where it's coming from. That's where you see homophobia being normalized. Yeah, and that's the problem.
John Milham (Host) · 36:14
Yeah, and yeah, it is. Um, and it's a shame because, you know, there are so many, um, young men who, in the absence of being, you know, supported directly or acknowledged, or, you know, in the absence, you know, maybe in many ways neglected in the system at in some ways. Um, certainly men's mental health has not been high on anyone's agenda, and they're seeking acknowledgement, support. They're seeking their identity in people who have those ideas, right? Who are, you know, not— I would consider terrible role models for young men.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 36:54
And let's, let's just— and again, in general terms here, would any boxer survive 12 3-minute rounds where the fans are just calling them the F-word? No. Would something be done? Absolutely yes. But nothing is essentially being done. It's in the UFC. Nothing is being done about Conor McGregor's in this world. And if you look at the UFC code of conduct, which they all sign because it's an essentially employment contract, it's about not making derogatory remarks about a whole group of people, women, that racism and homophobia is there. But once you actually, you only say, well, we're not going to enforce homophobia. What's next thing? If someone makes racist remarks, that's okay, right? Where do we draw the line about what's acceptable versus free speech?
John Milham (Host) · 37:53
So my thought is, you know, in many ways, like, say homophobic remarks or racist remarks or So are they, you know, the end outcomes of a systemic breakdown in an ability to be critically thinking, to, you know, to accept, to, you know, to be, to be evaluated, to be aware of, you know, of emotional and, you know, and social truths, right?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 38:20
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 38:21
So, you know, I guess upstream, what, what do we do about, you know, changing things? You're working again, you know, sport as a platform for, for fighting homophobic ideas. What, what, what are your pla— you know, what's the real play here?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 38:38
I think the play right now is things are getting worse. We're in the era of disinformation and populism. You have RFK Jr., future Health Secretary, he said on the record that adding fluoride to water turns people gay. So that itself is so offensive. That in itself is so offensive. And I tell you, Colgate doesn't turn people gay. No, Listerine does not turn people gay, otherwise everybody would be, right? But you see, that's now— we've, we've moved so far this way into what's acceptable. It's okay if you complain, it's woke. I think we're just— for the next few years, and this is not just about Trump and everything else, the world we've come right now is we need to come back to those common values: dignity, courtesy, respect. I've already seen on social media some— and again, that it's that the freedom of speech— saying marriage equality was the wrong thing to do. You know, it's not— that's a view, and I respect a different view from me, but it's— would marriage equality pass? It would be— I think it would be harder to pass now than it was back in 2017 because of what's happening now on Twitter and X and misinformation.
John Milham (Host) · 40:08
And I, I, I guess, um, you know, the, the, the sharing the ideas, um, you know, and, and offering an alternative voice, uh, is the only way, is the only way forward, you know, to, to combat these things, right? But, um, you think, like, what do we have to do? What can we do on a, on an everyday level?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 40:36
It comes back to my definition of allyship, which is around educating yourself another You know, are we going to allow fluoride turns people gay? Is that going to be the narrative? And then amplifying messages and actually just enabling other people to share their stories. And then you share their stories with others because that taps into education. So telling, so important. And speaking up, you know, you've got to make sure you're personally safe. Obviously, if you're in an event and you say, don't say that, you're going to be physically attacked. But saying something on social line or reporting something or saying to them, hey mate, you know, that's not right, you shouldn't be saying that. And engaging, engaging with communities, going along to something, inviting other people to join you, building communities, building those friendships. So the discipline—
John Milham (Host) · 41:25
so I love the idea of boxing being a conduit for, um, you know, sharing a message of acceptance, right? Because it Because there is two sides to martial arts, isn't there? There's the idea of both, like, you know, of violence, but it's also a sense of physical expression that emphasizes control and regulation and management.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 41:51
Well, if we look at martial arts, very few people will compete in boxing. Very few people, the percentage, will spar, never mind compete. But let's say you go to your boxing gym, you have a boxing crew who support you. It's great to improve both your mental and physical health. There's that spirit, the values of combat sports and boxing— courage, respect, unity— against bullying, you know, the antithesis of bullies, but also the manners of the sport. You touch gloves as you spar, hold the ring open for your competitor. At the end, you thank each corner, you thank the judges, the referees. They're respecting the sport.
John Milham (Host) · 42:41
I love it. What do you love about boxing? You still, you still trying?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 42:45
I don't train so much these days. I will get back into it in the future. I love the community spirit. I love how boxers have changed history. I love how the participants and fans have driven social change. And no finer example than Muhammad Ali. What he achieved outside of the ring was as good as what's inside the ring. And personally, somebody who's like around the social change and driving courage, Muhammad Ali achieved outside the ring is just like, wow.
John Milham (Host) · 43:16
Very true. Do, um, and, uh, you know, you, you mentioned it at the, at the start, you took up boxing, right? Which was like, there's a bit of a sort of, you know, obfuscation, if you will, right? To, you know, to direct it. So how did it capture you? What was the, what was the thing that captured you?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 43:36
It was at a time I'd almost died a few months previously from Addison's disease, like I was in the resuscitation of emergency, and that experience brought back the memories of coma. So actually, self-defense classes was a way of dealing with the PTSD. In the second class of boxing, I discovered something I could do. I was good at it, and that was— my own preconceptions were wrong, and I just found a new passion and purpose.
John Milham (Host) · 44:05
What, um, what is What is important for, you know, like if you're sharing a voice to the community, but what would you, if you were talking, you know, it's the usual question, you know, there's young Martin, 14 and struggling, right? And he's got a whole bunch of things he has to get into or overcome to become, you know, the best expression of himself. What do you want it like? You don't necessarily, you know, what wisdom or encouragement would you offer?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 44:38
My definition of courage: take ownership of fear, move forward with confidence and resilience. We've all overcome challenges, and from that challenge we get wisdom. The process which I call the courage bank, which is all your different memories which you use, you can use that as wisdom to apply forward.
John Milham (Host) · 44:59
Taking ownership of fear when you want to fight, you know, when you have your hormones Flying through you? How do you do that? How would you recommend someone do that?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 45:07
So I think just giving your time space to process something, to go through those moments and really think, why am I scared of this? What is it that makes me scared? So yesterday I was going for a walk and I stopped because there was a lizard about 5 meters ahead of me and it's a I thought, oh, is it a snake? And I wasn't scared, I wasn't scared like I used to be, but I'm like, oh, if it's a snake, I'm just going to stop. But it was a lizard and I gave it space just to walk away because it was more scared of me. But it was that instant reaction is, oh, what's that there? I'm just going to stop. I don't want to step on a snake. It wasn't a snake, but if it was, again, I would give the snake space to just kind of scurry away. And I think that's it. Allow you to process and then just just to ground it and to think, and then what practical things can you take versus catastrophizing?
John Milham (Host) · 46:02
Yeah, that's good advice. Good advice. Um, uh, and, and just as we round it up, what do you— what's next, Martin? You've got, you know, um, you know, more of the same, or where, where do you go? What's your, what's your, your vision for, for the next year and beyond?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 46:20
So right now I'm writing a book. And right now I am creating some workbooks for a courage consulting service that I want to offer by Will B. Austin. And this is, this is around leadership development and my target market, target audience are really executives who want to really go to that next level and really entrepreneurs who are just ready to branch and get to that next stage and really how you can use courage. To get there. And it's more than just owning fear. It's actually just stepping into that next level of courage and success.
John Milham (Host) · 46:56
Beautiful. And tell me, just finally, tell me about the community you want to live in for the—
Martin Stark (Guest) · 47:01
in the future. The community I want to live in in the future is the community I experienced with the Australian boxing community. If Boxing Australia and Boxing New South Wales if they were running boxing, we would have the most successful, inclusive, brilliant sport in the world. Because I tell you, Boxing Australia was with me every single step of the way, providing guidance.
John Milham (Host) · 47:30
That's really good. Your sport loves you dearly for that, I'm sure. Um, and, and if there's a young man out there who has got, um, you know, is in any case an ally, or, um, he's struggling with his personal identity and he feels that boxing might be something he would like to, you know, pursue and so on, what would you recommend he do?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 47:49
I just want to expand on that, and that could be man, woman, non-binary person, any gender. My advice would be to just try your local boxing gym, try something else, because it won't take you long to find a welcoming community.
John Milham (Host) · 48:07
Nice. Martin, it's been an absolute pleasure to chat over your incredibly interesting and challenging and community-focused life, mate. Thank you so much. And lastly, show us your book for the last one we get. That means we got 4 images. So that's available online, I dare say, or in any good bookshop?
Martin Stark (Guest) · 48:29
Yeah, best place to get it is from Amazon right now.
John Milham (Host) · 48:33
Nice. Nice.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 48:35
Hey, thank you so much.
John Milham (Host) · 48:36
Kintsugi Heroes is very, very happy to have had a chance to talk to Martin Stark.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 48:43
Thanks very much. Cheers.
John Milham (Host) · 48:52
Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Colin Lilly for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation.
Martin Stark (Guest) · 49:26
Thank you for listening.
John Milham (Host) · 49:27
And we'll see you next time.
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