Phil Hugill
The light in the tunnel
A man written off at fifteen becomes the person who sees potential in those society has abandoned.
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Phil Hugill
A man written off at fifteen becomes the person who sees potential in those society has abandoned.
Hear this story
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Phil Hugill was written off at fifteen. He left school with no qualifications, swept floors in factories and parks, and worked as a cabin boy on coal ships. A headmaster told him he was good for jobs with his hands. At twenty-one, unhappy in a letterpress printing factory, Phil attended an open day at art college in Newcastle. The course leader said he couldn't draw but offered him a place anyway. That single decision changed everything.
What followed was decades of work with people society had abandoned. Phil taught art, literacy, and numeracy to young people steered away from the criminal system. He worked in day centres with people who had profound disabilities, earning their trust not through qualifications but by treating them with dignity when they spat at him and kicked him. A social work mentor confronted him about racist and homophobic attitudes he'd absorbed growing up and helped him rebuild his moral compass. Phil moved to Australia with little money and no expectations, building community access programs for people with disabilities, establishing foster care and child protection services, and eventually working in corrections.
In prison, Phil saw that most people were there because of childhood trauma, abuse, and disconnection long before they ever broke the law. He refused to see them only through the lens of their crime. Instead, he sat with them as human beings, asked what kind of person they could become, and prepared them for release. Now Phil volunteers at a shelter for ex-prisoners, buying one man coffee and a donut weekly so he can talk about his week, his fears, his anxiety. The light is always there, Phil says. Even in the darkest moments, there is a spark of humanity. You just have to walk towards it.
“The course leader said, look, you can't draw, but you're here, I'll give you a chance.”
“People are labeled. The reason we give people labels like a MIN number in corrections, or as an assigned seat at school, it disempowers the person and it dehumanizes.”
“My mentor said to me, look, Phil, I need to take the person you are today, I need to unpack you, and I need to rebuild you.”
The hero, today
Phil was given a chance by an art teacher who said he could not draw but would enrol him anyway, and that single decision changed the trajectory of his entire life. When Phil worked with people who had been written off by society, he could relate to them because he had been written off too, and that shared experience meant he could see their humanity where others could not. Phil's approach to working with people in corrections was not to punish them further, but to ask: how do I want these people to be when they leave jail, so they do no more harm and can rejoin society. The majority of people in prison are there because of trauma they suffered as children, abuse, addiction, or homelessness, things that should have been addressed in the community before they ever reached the criminal system. What changes people most is not professional intervention but connection: an ordinary person who listens without judgment, goes for a walk or buys a coffee, and shows up regularly as a friend. Phil has learned that the light is always there somewhere, even in the darkest moments, and it appears in the form of the spark of humanity that exists in every person, no matter what they have done.
Yes. Phil Hugill is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Phil was given a chance by an art teacher who said he could not draw but would enrol him anyway, and that single decision changed the trajectory of his entire life.
When Phil worked with people who had been written off by society, he could relate to them because he had been written off too, and that shared experience meant he could see their humanity where others could not.
Phil's approach to working with people in corrections was not to punish them further, but to ask: how do I want these people to be when they leave jail, so they do no more harm and can rejoin society.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 00:00
I think society's uncomfortable with itself is the answer. If you think about it, the world's changed, jobs are changing all the time, the data they use— and that's political, I think— you win votes by promoting a crisis. So you've promoted a crisis and here's my solution to the crisis: more law and order. We'll lock people up, we'll build more prisons.
John Milham (Host) · 00:37
So ladies and gentlemen, uh, fans of, uh, fans of, uh, Kintsugi Heroes Podcasts, we're back having a conversation, and this is the Stories That Matter, uh, stream, and I'm talking to a man today who has been up to his armpits in stories that matter, right? He has had a life of service, and in fact, as he pointed out with a quick chat we were having, it's— the theme is second chance. Phil Hugel, welcome to Kintsugi Heroes.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 01:09
Thank you, John. Happy to be here.
John Milham (Host) · 01:11
Oh yeah, it's great to have you here. As I was mentioning to the listeners, Phil, you have a resume that is incredibly full of opportunities to serve the community. In so many important roles and in so many difficult places. That seems like a huge commitment to virtue and to service. But the theme is Second Chance. How is that your second chance, Phil? How did we get to that space as a second chance?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 01:48
Well, thanks for that introduction, John. I don't think I'm virtuous at all. Flawed human being, as we all are, I think.
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The majority of people in prison are there because of trauma they suffered as children, abuse, addiction, or homelessness, things that should have been addressed in the community before they ever reached the criminal system.
This conversation includes a life of second chances, the art teacher who said yes, teaching young people to talk, learning to see the human being, unpacking and rebuilding himself and landing in australia with nothing.
John Milham (Host) · 01:56
As we all are.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 01:58
Second chances for me, a little bit about me. I didn't walk or talk until I was 3 years of age. At school, I would be what you'd call a slow learner. I was at the back of the class. I left school at 15 with no qualifications and the ringing endorsement in my ears from my headteacher that I was good for a job with my hands. And certainly I did that. I worked in a park sweeping leaves, worked as a junior able seaman or cabin boy on a coal ship sweeping up coal dust, and then worked in a letterpress printing factory cleaning oily rags and sweeping the floors and cleaning toilets. I was very good at sweeping up, I have to say.
John Milham (Host) · 02:43
It sounds like a childhood straight out of a Dickens novel, mate, with Were you— have you time traveled to the 20th century?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 02:51
Or as you grow up— for me, growing up in the northeast of England, times were tough. You know, you're talking the Thatcher eras. Margaret Thatcher, for people who don't know, was the Prime Minister, I would say, that supported the richer parts of the country and ignored the—
John Milham (Host) · 03:08
the Iron Lady— for, uh, those, uh, you know, do, you know, working absolutely for a living. Yeah.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 03:14
I guess that was my starting point. And given my family history, without going into too much depth, was there was a history of mental health in my family, there was a history of alcoholism in my family. I didn't have a bad childhood, but it wasn't one full of rich color and life. So that was my beginning, my second chance, and why second chances are important, I think. I was very unhappy as a 21-year-old working in a factory. I was given— there was— I'd always been interested in art and design. Couldn't draw very well, but I was interested. There was an open day at an art college in Newcastle where I lived. I went along. The course leader said, look, you can't draw, but you're here, I'll give you a chance. So I enrolled, did 2 years of art, art and design. That was my first second chance. She gave me a chance to learn, to be my— to become myself. Um, that led to the second, second chance, which was working with adolescents in a youth diversion program where I was teaching, educating young people, 16 to 20 years of age, in art literacy, numeracy. I took them on Outward Bound courses and we did screen printing. It was all about trying to get them to talk to each other, talk to me, and divert them away from the criminal system, really, because they were— it was a diversion program.
John Milham (Host) · 04:50
It's fascinating. This is a lad who left school at 15, and somehow you've immediately— you're sort of embarked on adulthood educating people, right? That's an extraordinary leap. Did you feel like that was your calling?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 05:11
I never thought about being an educator. What I thought about at the time was my history and upbringing was fairly poor in terms of education and enrichment. And people saying no to me. People said no a lot to me because really, academically, I was a write-off. Having been given this opportunity to work with these young people, I didn't see myself as an educator. I saw myself more as someone who could help them become who they needed to be. So it was coming from that space about helping people, show them a pathway. You don't have to be unemployed, you know, there are opportunities to work. You don't have to be successful at school in order to get onto a course, be it at— well, in Australia I'd say at a TAFE, um, in England at the time was a college. And doing that, they suggested to me, my manager at the time, that I go and do a night course in adult education. 'So I did.' And that was my first qualification, if you like, because I did that work for 3 years. And then another chance came along. They were setting up at the time a day centre for people with learning difficulties who had challenging behaviour. And the manager of that centre came and saw what I was doing and said, 'If you can work with these young people, I think you can work with people with learning difficulties who have challenging behaviour.' So that was another chance I was given. So off I went to do that. And they were challenging. I mean, you're being spat at and punched and kicked. It's not fun, but you start to learn. You get to know the people, the human beings that are within these bodies. And once you treat them well, like, um, and treat them with respect, I didn't get hurt. I got on well, even though they were severely intellectually disabled. And what one young man I worked with a lot, but a particularly good right hook. I, I didn't get punched. He punched a lot of people around me, and that comes down to how you engage with people. Again, doing that, because of that work, they sent me off part-time to do social work. So, and I remember again, another chance was the mentor that I was given said to me, look, Phil, I need to take the person you are today, I need to unpack you, and I need to rebuild you. Because I'd grown up in what was a fairly racist, homophobic, working-class kind of environment, and, uh, I didn't know I had those issues within me, but I did. She brought them out, maybe examine them, and rebuild kind of a social moral comfort compass about how I wanted to work and live. And be. So that was wonderful. That was like an awakening in my mid-20s to late 20s. I think that really formed my drive to give people chances.
John Milham (Host) · 08:15
Extraordinary experience for a young man coming from a place of where, you know, as you said, enrichment didn't exist, right? So just tolerating that kind of, you know, connecting and caring for people in that situation would, I would imagine, be outside of the normal kind of response from your home environment or your, you know, the place you grew up.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 08:42
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, one of the consequences was dislocation from family and dislocation from the friends I'd grown up with. They really couldn't, and I don't blame them, they couldn't— some of my young person who's been working in a factory or in a park doing manual jobs, suddenly to be coming aware socially and choosing to, um, be more accepting, more, um, to work with people and respect people regardless of their background or their abilities, um, was just alien to the people I'd grown up with. So, you know, I developed a new group of friends, a new group of social friends. Part of that journey was then going What do I want in life? How do I want to grow? So part of that growth was coming to Australia and landing here and then going really, or sort of landed with not a lot of money, but, and I'd never been to Australia before. I mean, I'd watched some programs on TV, mainly Dr. Oz.
John Milham (Host) · 09:49
Yeah, Home and Away is a good advertisement or whatever it was.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 09:52
Yeah, Home and Away, Neighbours. Kippy, that sort of—
John Milham (Host) · 09:57
Kippy, yeah.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 09:59
Um, I really had no knowledge of what I was coming to, and that was a good thing, I think, because I had no expectations other than I wanted to experience, I wanted to grow, I wanted to learn. Australia gave me the chance by allowing me to come here, um, legally, um, in terms of going through an immigration process and being accepted, etc. Um, so I landed here, and again, because I had a disability background, immediately got work, um, in a, um, day center for people with disabilities, which were high-dependency, um, people. So again, I was back to wiping bottoms, and, um, I've wiped a lot of bottoms in my life, but you do it with dignity and respect, as you should, um, because they're still human beings. Um, that led— I was there for about a year in that place, and then in a charity up in Northern Sydney had been given some federal funding to create a community access program for people in Northern Sydney with profound disabilities. So I went along for the interview. For whatever reason, they gave me the job, which was confronting for them because it was a very Catholic organisation with a long history and a very conservative approach. And I landed and went, well, we're not going to sit inside and with soft toys. These people are going to go in the community. So I recruited a staff team and it was community access. We were out every day in the community taking people to the movies, swimming pools, shopping. And these are people— and again, same in England, same here— people with profound disabilities, a lot of people with intellectual disabilities have been locked away in institutions, hidden from life. And I took the view that they're citizens, they deserve to be part of society, so we'll do that. So I had some interesting moments in that place for 3 years. That program's still going. I left after 3 years, and because I'd set that up, uh, another NGO, non-government organization in the Northern Beaches, and based at sort of French's Forest area, they were looking for a community services manager. So I went along to that, got that job set up, started working with the government to close boarding houses and children's homes where people with disabilities had been locked away and abused, really. So I set up independent living, social and rec programs, and shared houses for people coming out of those environments. Um, one aside I will talk about was the charity had a board led by parents um, who are very conservative, lovely people but quite conservative. And I had the moment in my life of meeting these parents to tell them their adult son with an intellectual disability had been approaching young women at the bus stop for sex. So my answer to that was, let's build into his budget once a fortnight to go to a brothel Doesn't mean you need a sex worker. So I phoned the brothel, talked to the manager, arranged a pension rate so he could go once a fortnight and have his needs met. It avoided him coming into contact with the criminal justice system, was safe for young people in that area. But then to have to sit at the board with these parents and explain that, you know, this was what Howard set his budget up and what I was doing, and was confronting for them. So that lasted— that job lasted a good few years. But at the time, I had this feeling that there was something missing in my career, and that led me to apply and gain a job. Again, I was given a chance, though I had no background in children as such. Um, I got a job with what was Department of Community Services in Western Sydney. Leading basically the community team to place children who'd been removed in foster care. Set up an adolescent street team, had a foster care team, a placement team, Aboriginal team, um, set up a whole range of things. And I had a mantra with my staff: I would not leave the office until every child had a safe place to sleep that night. 'Cause my view is for children particularly, if you don't have a safe place to sleep or rest and food to eat, you're never going— that's the basics. You're never going to achieve anything if you haven't got those basics in place.
John Milham (Host) · 14:59
Well, where's the mental and emotional room for anything else, right? If you don't even know if you're going to eat or survive the weather, right? We tend to think of people taking choices at this age, and you go, how can you choose anything when you're not even sure you're going to get a meal? There's no room to choose. There's no room to be cognitive at this point.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 15:27
And look, certainly my experience in that work for a number of years made me realize all these young people, children, were coming into care because they've been abused. So if you're suffering trauma as a child, you shouldn't be surprised that that then leads to poor adolescent behavior and then adult criminal behavior. And so after the— that work in child protection, out-of-home care, I then applied for— and again, I was given a chance by a wonderful manager to take on a role in corrections. And I went there deliberately because I realized the people in corrections, the adults in corrections, a lot of them, they're there because of that trauma they've suffered. So for me, corrections was like the— if you like— the Everest of all of my experiences to that point had been building up and building up and realizing the trauma as a child, as an adolescent, as someone with a dis— mild disability, you're separated from society, you're disconnected from society, you're ignored, you're abused, you're laughed at, you're bullied, whatever. Why are we surprised those people then end up in the criminal system? And in the criminal system, anyone that goes to jail basically is further traumatized, not because The most of us, not because of abuse by the staff or the prisoners, although, you know, bad things happen in prison, obviously. Most of the staff I met in prison were there for the right reasons and wanted to do the right thing. The institution that is set up works against that. Um, you know, it's a very structured, punitive system in, in terms of justice. You commit a crime, you're sent to jail. You know, apart from serious crime, you know, murder, etc., the majority of people who are in jail are there because of trauma, abuse, addiction, homelessness, a whole range of social issues which should be addressed in the community. You know, my experience in correction I had a team that basically classified people as whether they were minimum, medium, maximum security. The main focus of my work was with what they call serious offenders who committed the worst crimes. But I took the view that if they had a sentence which said never to be released, then they still needed to be treated with respect and dignity. They're still a human being regardless. For the fact they've committed a horrendous crime. But there's very few of them. The majority of people who are labeled a serious offender, they've got an exit date. They are going to leave jail whether you like it or not. And so my view was, how do I want these people to be when they leave? So can I work with them so they leave in the best possible state to do no more harm? Because that's the critical thing. So they might have made a mistake many times, or once, many years ago, but once they've served the sentence, if you accept the justice system, in theory, once you've served your sentence, you should be free to rejoin society.
John Milham (Host) · 18:55
It's meant to be a cleaning of the slate, really, isn't it?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 18:58
So you want them to come out and engage in society, be part of society, and contribute to society in a positive way. So my work in corrections was all about that, which did get me into some strife with some particular people, because as soon as you say all prisoners should be treated with respect, it's a red flag. It's a, it's a bit like saying treat homeless people with respect and dignity, and a lot of people would just say, well, it's their fault, um, without looking beyond Why has someone become homeless? Why has someone ended up in prison? What's the story behind it? And the story behind that, and the story behind that. People— there's always a history. So it's about unpacking the history to get back to what's the core, what was the turning point, because that could have been me. If I look back at my history, and that's why I say second chances are important, I could have ended up an alcoholic. I could have ended up in jail. Certainly, you know, two members of my family in the UK ended up in jail. So there was a pathway there for me. I chose a different path, but that path was only enabled by people giving me a chance. So it wasn't me as such making— having an epiphany and going, I'm going to be a good person. It was people looking at me, talking to me, and saying, I think We'll give you a chance with this job. We'll give you a chance to do this. So I ended that corrections job, or they ended me, because I upset a few very senior people. And now I volunteer again for a charity at a homeless shelter— well, not homeless, at a shelter for ex-male prisoners in Sydney. And that's the most rewarding work. And it's not work. I go along and I have a chat. Sometimes go shopping with them, sometimes go for a walk. Um, often I just listen and they talk about their challenges coming out of jail, no family because families deserted them, or there's parole conditions they can't have contact with people or in certain areas. Um, Christmas is horrible because it brings up so much trauma. They want to connect with family but can't, and then we wonder why they fall back into addiction. Because you're re-traumatizing people. And I fully accept people need to be safe. I don't want anyone to be hurt. I don't condone violence of any sort. But in a way, we continue to punish people after they've left jail, and that's wrong. If you want any sort of just society, if you want to feel safe, then the best way to do that is to treat people well and give them opportunity, I think.
John Milham (Host) · 21:53
Yeah, absolutely. There's so many questions from your history that it's almost like you climb the stairs. Each role, each kind of focus has been led on to the next one. When you talked about, right at the beginning, when you talked about how, you know, you, you were given a chance, you didn't have the qualifications, but because you, when that first group of, of, um, high needs individuals, you were given like, um, you know, that, you know, guys that were bad behaving, right? I wonder, you know, you, you said you didn't have the qualifications, but did you Did you find— I'm interested in how lived experience supported you. Was it like your understanding and your experience of the world up until that point had not been too dissimilar from the people you were actually trying to help?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 22:47
I think that's a good description because I was the kid at the back of the classroom. I was overweight as a kid, so I was bullied, but not terribly so. But I was certainly Like, if they were picking a soccer team, I would be the substitute. If they were picking a rugby team, I would be— I would be suggested I'd be better off, or a cricket team, I could go for a run by myself. In fact, it got to the point the PE teacher, when I was about 14, gave me a note and excused me from PE. Like, I didn't ask for that. He just— he looked at me and went, well, you've got no athletic ability. Yeah, and again, when I think back, that was a driver because when I got into my 20s, I lost weight and I took up running, and I ended up running marathons and ultramarathons. And that, if I think about it, that was to prove him wrong. And I was prob— and I think the same with my work with those young people and people with challenging behavior, because I was written off, I associated with those people because they were being written off. And that was— I know how that felt, so therefore I could relate, I imagine, to how they felt. So if the second you exclude someone for whatever reason, you build up a resentment, I think, in them, um, and a sense of hopelessness. I was reading for my last course because I've done multiple— I went on to do multiple courses, so I've got 3 master's degrees.
John Milham (Host) · 24:22
You got 3 master's degrees, but you never, um, you didn't, you know, you never made school the first time, right? That's— I think there's a lot in that, right?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 24:30
School's not for everyone, and it really isn't. It doesn't— I didn't learn at school. I didn't choose— I chose not to. I just switched off. So I can't blame the school. It's just I wasn't— I was physically there but not mentally there. I was unhappy there. So, um, but there's a, a writer, Edward Lawrence, I think he's called, and he writes about the butterfly effect. And the butterfly effect is a small change in the wind in the Amazon can cause basically a hurricane on the other side of the world. In other words, a small change in one part can lead to a massive outcome difference in someone's life. So that's all I've tried to do. I've tried to be those small changes that just— if I can open a doorway, if I can help someone take a step forward, I can't— you know, same with whether it's people with a criminal history, young people who are on the streets, um, or people with a disability— I can't magic a better life for them, but I can open the door even if it's just a little bit, and say there's an opportunity. Now, if they choose to take it, great. If they don't, that's fine by me. Um, I'm not there to lead people's lives. I'm there to just give people an opportunity.
John Milham (Host) · 25:56
You talked about, um, you were there, but, you know, you had a lot going on, isn't it? And that the school just— like, even your PE teacher and so on The school system is just a benign form of the correction system, right? Like they're not really human-focused, are they? Sometimes, right? They're outcome-focused.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 26:18
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's always interesting to look at history. Why were schools set up? If I think about the UK, well, because the army generals needed a better educated foot soldier.
John Milham (Host) · 26:31
Yeah.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 26:31
That's the bottom line. And, well, because, you know, they realized going back 200 years that recruits are the people that were pressed into the armed services that couldn't read maps or count. So set up a school system to educate young men so they could be better fighters. And if you think about the regiment, you know, I think it's true in Australia that particularly the private schools, that it's quite regimented and structured, um, And there's very much a focus on, in some schools, on discipline and lining up. I mean, certainly in my day, you had to line up almost on parade before you went into your classroom. You were assigned a desk. I always remember, slightly different, when I first went to corrections and I met my team, went into this conference room and they said, 'Oh, Phil, that's your seat at the head of the table.' And went, 'Well, why?' 'Well, because you're the director.' I'll bugger that, I'm going to the other end of the table and I'll sit with the youngest female staff member who's got the least experience because that's who I want to influence because she's the future. And there was uproar, they wouldn't start the meeting unless I sat in my assigned seat and literally they had seats assigned based on hierarchy for every member of staff. I was like, this is excuse my language, but bullshit. Looking back on it now, I should have been more respectful of— they were incredibly proud of their institution, of their service, and it meant a lot to them. As an outsider going in, it's not surprising I ruffled a few feathers because I came from a social work background, from a human background, a social justice background. Prison is set up to keep people locked up. It's, it's an artifact of the justice system. The courts find you guilty, they send you to jail for X number of years. The job of corrections is to carry out that sentence. I was much more interested in what are we doing to help people leave.
John Milham (Host) · 28:35
Is that like, is that just the way you're seeing the, the, the inmates? Like, it's you, when you see them as a person, you must, you know, decide to treat them like a person or to ignore their humanity directly, and that must be very confronting. I'm sure most people don't want to ignore the humanity of someone, but they use the rules and regulations as a way of avoiding having to make those kind of decisions.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 29:01
Absolutely. I think, I mean, whether it's school, hospitals, institutions for the disabled, or juvenile justice or corrections, people are labeled. And the reason we give people labels like a MIN number in corrections, or as an assigned seat at school, or, you know, or a particular, you know, in hospital, a bed, it's all about this. It disempowers the person and it dehumanizes. So it makes it easier to treat that person because you're not seeing them as a human being.
John Milham (Host) · 29:41
You don't have to be flexible, you can just treat, you know, feed them all the same thing at the same time type thing.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 29:47
Absolutely. It's, um, it's just another number. Yeah. So I think, and that makes it easier for the staff who are— otherwise you're being confronted by whatever institution, whichever facility that you're working in, and, or even in the community, if you say so, a homeless person— it's much easier to walk past than stop and say hello or buy them a cup of coffee. If you see someone with a mental health problem in the community, it's easier to walk to the other side of the street. Or even a blind person, you know, struggling to cross the road. A lot of times people will just look but then walk away. To actually see them as a human being that needs some help or even just a word of kindness Then the second you do that, if you help, you offer kindness, you treat people with respect, you're seeing them as another human being, same as you, same as me. We're all human beings, and all of us are capable of the very worst. The majority of us choose not to. That's the only difference between me and a serial killer, really. I've chosen not to, for whatever reason they have. Um, fortunately there's not many of them. And there's a lot more of us, um, and that's a good thing. That's humanity at its best, I think. And I can't remember who it was, I can't remember if it was Nelson Mandela, um, or Gandhi, one of those said, how we treat the worst in society is a reflection of society, or words to that effect.
John Milham (Host) · 31:19
Oh, absolutely. And I'm— it, it's, you know, you, you were talking about that whole seeing them as a person, and I absolutely agree that, you know, you know, how we interact with those, you know, uh, how we share, how we care, how we show kindness. Uh, Humakai says kindness is the only thing you can do without having fondness for something, right? You can still treat them well, right? But in that situation, I, I keep thinking, uh, you know, treating someone as a human, right, it seems an easy thing to say But you of all people have had to, you know, exercise that skill. What did you do to practice? Because it must be very difficult to look at someone and know what they've done and then say, well, the behavior isn't the person. How do you practice, you know, keeping their humanity front and center?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 32:20
This is going to sound clichéd, but the way I thought about my work, particularly in corrections, I often use the metaphor of a train. If you get on a train, there's multiple carriages. You get on the first carriage, that in a prison system, that could be— because I had to read people's criminal history and read the sentencing report and, you know, the evidence. That convicted them. And there was some very, very serious crimes where people were hurt or murdered. So you read, that's the first courage. The second courage is, okay, I've got to go and meet this human being. How do I prepare? How am I going to approach? So I've got to process that information I've got about what they did, but when they did it, and think about them. Where are they now? So they're halfway through their sentence, 3/4 of the way through the sentence. They're going to come back into society in 5 years, 3 years, 2 years, 1 year. How do I want to approach that? So then, if you like, the third carriage is me sitting with them as a human being. So I've kind of left the— because the way I looked at it, the court went through all that information, made a judgment on their guilt, and applied a sentence. That's not my job to punish them anymore. My job is to make sure they do the right thing in jail, do the programs they've got to do, or encourage them to do them, encourage them to— whether it's education work. I often encourage people to interact with the chaplains because they've got a critical role, I believe, in helping people because they listen and help people process things.. And then the fourth carriage is getting towards the end where you're getting close to coming out. What does that look like for you? You know, do you have family you can connect with? Do you have— if you're Aboriginal, where is your land? How do we help you reconnect if that's possible? If you're, you know, whatever you've done, if you had a drug and alcohol history, How are you going to go forward? Because you're— it's like if you're an alcoholic, you're always an alcoholic. If you're an addict, you're always an addict. You choose not to, you know, you can choose not to, but I don't think you ever— it's not like you can say, oh, that's not me anymore. It's a part of your history. Same as victims of crimes. I did some work with victims of crime that they will never stop being a victim of that crime. It's part of their history. I used to say to people, look, it's part of your history, but don't let it define you into the future. You know, it— you'll carry it with you because it's part of you, who you are, but it does not define you. Same with crime. It does not define you so long as you don't go out and commit the same crime again. And even you get down to the level of You committed a really— for me, success was someone, someone's committed murder, they exit, they come back to jail a year later because they've stolen a car. That's a win.
John Milham (Host) · 35:37
Yeah, yeah, I hadn't thought about it. You know, their offending is, uh, is reducing on a, on a staged basis, right?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 35:45
And same with the work I do now with some of the people I volunteer with. I know some of them are still using I don't condemn them for that, but if you can see the use is reducing, that's a good thing. Then trying to talk to them about, okay, you know you're going to be drug tested, you know, and if you're found, if the test's dirty, you're going to breach your parole conditions. So let's think about that. And what is it, you know, do you want to go back to jail? First question. No, I don't. Okay, well, if you don't, what do you need to do? How can I help you not do that. Yeah, so you don't breach. And a lot of them get very cranky with the parole officers. So it's about— the parole officer's just got to do a job, you know. You've got to attend parole on time, be polite, follow the terms and conditions. That's all they're applying. So they're not the enemy, they're your best supporter, so long as you do the right thing.
John Milham (Host) · 36:44
But it's interesting though, when you say that, I agree, you know, like when the system often says to people who are struggling both either, you know, with behavioural, you know, psycho-emotional problems or, you know, history of offending or behavioural issues. The system, even people who just have a situational distress, right, which is impacting on their ability to make good decisions, the system often says, you come to me, You find me, you come to me, and then you ask nicely for help, and if I can fit you in, I will, right? Um, you know, and it strikes me as that's a really unhelpful position to have when all of these, um, behavioral things are often acute, right? They often happen, you know, spontaneously, or they're, you know, they're kind of more about impulsivity than they are about planning, right? So, why do you think, having walked through so much of this system, why do you think we miss the point there or we don't meet the challenge properly?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 38:01
Well, that's a really good question. I agree with you that I think partly the problem is And I would say this with respect to every institution I've worked in and the staff I've worked with. People are— I don't believe people are inherently bad. I think, I think people are inherently good. I think institutions, structures, and systems work against people because, you know, if you want to advance your career, You know, you learn to, you know, as a, and when I was in community services, remember the director saying to me, you know, Phil, whether I want it or not, you're going, you're going to tell me the truth. And that wasn't a compliment.
John Milham (Host) · 38:50
No, no, he wasn't happy about it.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 38:53
And I've always taken that view, which has made me difficult. I'd be the first to admit I'm a difficult employee, I will always tell the truth. If I think something's not going to work, if I think it's a bad policy, if I think you're making a bad decision, I will tell you, I think that's wrong, and this is why I think it's wrong, this is why I think it won't work. That flies in the face of government decisions, you know, like when they decided they would outsource, many, many years ago, There was a view that we'll outsource prisons. That hasn't gone well for the private sector. They outsourced out-of-home care to the non-government sector. It's caused a few issues. A lot of it's gone really well, some of it hasn't. They outsourced the recruitment of foster care to non-government organizations. We're now in a position where there's a shortage of foster carers. You could look at disability. Yes, the institutions were bad, but there are some people that will always struggle in community. And I think it's very much a case of we tend to jump from, in answer to your question, policy is very blunt. It's either yes or no. It's either this or that. The realities of the human condition is we live in the middle. We live in the murky waters. Where, you know, life is full of challenge, life is full of unexpected stress points, relationships that break down, relationships that start, grief and loss. All of these things don't neatly fit in any one particular box. That's why we struggle. So we struggle, how do we manage rehabilitation? Should it be in the community? Should it be in in a jail. I'd say it should be in the community. I think rehabilitation in the community before someone goes to jail and before rehabilitation, it's the basics in life around a safe place to live, food to eat, a decent education. I'm not saying people have to go to the best schools, but the base, basic education, the opportunity to work. Not everyone's going to take it, but the opportunity to work should be there. If those things are there, and if, if drug and alcohol counseling is available, if grief and loss counseling is available, then a lot of people would not end up in the jail system, and society would be better off. I think where I'd sort of tie that all together is— and I want to read this because I've wrote it down— there's an author called Bryan Stevenson, and he's— he wrote a book called Just Mercy. And he said, "The true measure of our character is how we treat the poor, the disfavored, the accused, the incarcerated, and the condemned." I think so. For me, that's about second chances. The, you know, they are the people in the darkness, the people in the margins of society. They need people to give them another chance. You've given me a chance today to talk. I don't know how we make sense of this podcast in any way, shape, or form. And that's okay. And if people take anything from it, I simply hope that they embrace the concept that before you judge someone, find out a little bit about them, or just give them a chance.
John Milham (Host) · 42:31
Yeah, it's so true. I call that Um, perception over perspective. Yeah, right. You perceive something, it's your job to check it by gaining a perspective from the other person's.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 42:43
Absolutely. Look at that, look at their life through their eyes. Yeah. And you know, if they've had a lifetime of abuse, neglect, addiction, you know, really, what are you expecting?
John Milham (Host) · 42:56
It's one of those things where, you know, uh You know, it'd be nice to have a USB that contained the pain you're in, right? You know, so you could say, oh, do you want to know about me? Here, plug in this USB. Because, you know, often we tell them about our achievements, but the barriers aren't often shared, right? Or the shame or the pain, right?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 43:21
It's uncomfortable.
John Milham (Host) · 43:22
That side of thing, it might give you a decent idea about why people do things.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 43:26
Yeah, well, it's about how we interact with each other. It's uncomfortable to share the hard times, to share, you know, your fears, your anxieties, what's gone wrong. I mean, I've made lots of mistakes in my work, but you learn from them and you kind of go— I mean, not mistakes. I think when I look back, I could have been a lot more polite about how I told senior people that they didn't know what they were doing. There would have been a better way to communicate.
John Milham (Host) · 44:00
You could have cared for them the way you're caring for the people you were looking after in the role, right? So I guess that's— the Dalai Lama would have known about that. The rest of us are just working out how to do it.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 44:12
Absolutely. So yes, as I said, I'm a flawed human being. I looked I looked at the people who, whether you want to call them clients, customers, peers, the people I worked with, they're the people I cared for. The people above me, I was like, ah, they can take care of themselves. That was a mistake. Yeah, they need care as well.
John Milham (Host) · 44:34
Yeah, that's, that's so true. And here, a couple of things that pop up. First of all, you've worked with young people a lot over the years, all the way up to to, you know, later, later on with, um, you know, adult incarcerated folks. But, um, at the moment Australia is talking about an epidemic of youth crime. And, you know, I think the stats aren't quite matching that, you know, like I think the stats show that that's not exactly the way it is on the ground, but that nevertheless young people are being fed the kind of narrative of them being dangerous or crazy, like the youth mental health is often that, or useless, the millennial, the Gen Z kind of idea that you can't stay in a job, you can't do anything well. How is that helping? And why can't we stop it? Why can't people in, you know, that, you know, in the health, in the cleaning up the mess, like people like yourself, why can't we make a big enough noise to say, hang on, you're contributing to this stuff, not, you know, it's not because kids are awful?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 45:58
I think society's uncomfortable with itself is the answer. Wow. If you think about it, the world's changed. It used to be the case that I remember when I, when I was working with people with disabilities back in Newcastle in England, and it was a center run by the local council. And I remember people saying to me, you've got a job with the local council, you've got a job for life. That day center closed and the people that worked there got made redundant about a year after I left. I didn't know it was going to close, but it— because they went, as they have here, they went to individual funding, and families worked out, hang on, I don't want my son or daughter locked away in a workshop somewhere or a day center. Like, with individual funding, I can employ who I want to provide the life I want for them, which is a good thing. So when I was in the letterpress printing factory 'You've got a trade, you've got a job for life.' That trade's gone, it's redundant, it doesn't exist outside of the museum, that doesn't happen anymore. So I think if you're a school leaver today, I think it's fair to say you'll probably have 4 or 5 completely different jobs in your lifetime, because whatever you start today is probably going to be made redundant whether that's AI, computers, technology, or just we no longer need a massive mining industry for coal. We might need a massive mining industry for something else. Or, you know, we no longer need a massive car factory employing thousands of people. We'll still produce cars, but it'll be an automated production line and the jobs will be in technology, or in, you know, sort of greener, more fuel-efficient, or more environmentally friendly ways of working. So young people, unlike my generation, where you started a job— and I chose to leave those jobs— but people who had those jobs thought, that's it for the rest of their life. They were settled, they were secure. That's all changed, that's gone. So young person today, they go, what am I, you know, people training to be a lawyer, good chance that AI and computer systems are going to make a lot of the groundwork that lawyers did is going to be done by technology. So there'll be less lawyers. And this way, you know, you could apply that to anything. Jobs are changing all the time. The data they use, and that's political, I think. You win votes by promoting a crisis. So you've promoted a crisis, and here's my solution to the crisis: more law and order. We'll lock people up, we'll build more prisons.
John Milham (Host) · 48:56
Which actually expands the crisis.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 48:58
Absolutely.
John Milham (Host) · 48:59
And there are more crimes for young people to commit. They tend to do that, right?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 49:05
Absolutely. And if you look at the data, The more police you employ, the more people that get arrested. The more prisons you build, the more people that go to prison. You have an— unfortunately, you have an event, say Bondi, where terrible attack and multiple people died. Consequence: police rounded up and have locked up a whole range of people who may be connected to or not, maybe of a particular faith or not. Maybe online have talked about, you know, all sorts of things and have never committed a crime, but you get a reaction. So whether it's knife crime in Melbourne, whether it's the terrorist attack here in Sydney, or whether it's car crime in the western suburbs, there's then an over-the-top reaction, and then you alienate young people. Who go, you're just, you know, and any group that's a minority, autumn, will end up feeling that they're discriminated against, they're disadvantaged, and therefore they put up their barriers because it's, well, if you're going to condemn me, I may as well go out and do what you're condemning me for anyway.
John Milham (Host) · 50:22
You're removing the limits on their behavior in some ways, right?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 50:27
Absolutely. I mean, I think it's— you go— there were some studies done in the '70s and '80s in England about the, what they call the underclass. And basically, it was about young people rioting and youth crime. And the study, what they came up with was, which I thought was very relevant, if you deny people the opportunity to benefit from society, if you cut them off from the benefits of society, then the rules of society no longer apply to them. So if you condemn young people, then are you surprised that they then react that way? It's a bit like where I started, you know, written off at school and told I wouldn't be any good for anything. So I believed that for a long time.
John Milham (Host) · 51:16
And as you stated, your response was you know, almost to shove it in their faces, right? So, you know, like later on when you completed an ultramarathon, which I personally don't understand myself, but I can like imagine it must have been important, you know, to— I'm not a— couldn't run out of sight in a dark night, but you know, being— how energetic that sort of, that negative influence, that lack of care and connection has actually driven you into something to do something. It happened to be something that we see as useful, but it could equally have been, you know, you could have excelled at shopbreaking or something.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 51:56
Absolutely. And that's what I was saying to you before about, I guess, different pathways, crossroads in your life, because that art teacher gave me at the art college said, well, you've got no talent really, but I'll give you a go. That was my saving grace. Just gave me a chance. And I recognize now the chances people gave me all the way through. So, if you give people a chance, they can reward you, they can surprise you, and they can become your successful employee.
John Milham (Host) · 52:33
I want to go back to all of these incredible moves into increasingly difficult problems almost, right, for social. How, like, you know, take a, you know, young men, young people with real, with, you know, challenging behavior, which, you know, is part of the work, you know, the sense of epidemic these days, right? Um, how do you do something? How do you, how do you help it, like, change it, right? If, because we, you know, we're, we're very focused on the end make a new law, build a new prison, more police, condemn the young people. What can we actually do to improve the outcomes rather than just lock them away or increase the isolation?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 53:27
I genuinely think it's about, at a very base level, communication. Sit and listen. Ask a few open-ended questions. Okay, why are we here? How did you get here? Tell me what's going on in your world. And because the people with challenging behavior, I can almost guarantee it's coming from a place of trauma. So you've got to understand the trauma before you can do anything. You know, just telling people stop taking drugs doesn't work. Telling people stop committing crime doesn't work. Why are the, the outcome, as you put it, the crime, the addiction, the violence, they're the end point. What was the starting point? So you've got to peel away the layers and get back to what, what was the trauma that started that. Address that and the rest will disappear, in my view. And diversion programs. Rather, if someone has committed, whether it's addiction or a crime, rather than sending them in, you know, locking them up, you need a diversion. Yes, structure and obviously keeping people safe, but you need a diversion away so it's not locking them behind barbed wire, because that just teaches them to be better criminals.
John Milham (Host) · 54:51
Oh, absolutely. I, I forget who said it, but it was someone said, you know, addiction, you know, the drug problem is not a problem of addiction, it's a problem of connection.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 55:02
Yeah, connection, community. Um, certainly the guys I work with as a volunteer now, what makes a difference to them— because after I've said to a lot of them, Dominic, you know, I'm happy to come, but do you want me to come? And absolutely, Phil, we want you to be here. Why? It's someone to talk to, it's someone who listens. I'm not there condemning them. It's like, how's your week been? What are you up to? How's your work? You know, you need to get, you know, one guy needed to get a new high-vis vest because he got a job. So we walked down, went to Woolies and got his high-vis vest. He just needed someone. He was, it's hard to describe because these are big middle-aged men. He was scared to go into the Woolworths and buy that high-vis vest because his trauma in the past was as a shoplifter, as a teenager, being arrested multiple times. Walking in with me, and I look half decent, you know, he wasn't followed around by the security guard. And we bought the high-vis vest and we left.
John Milham (Host) · 56:09
So, so fascinating and such a like some— and some, some of the solutions don't involve constructing a new jail. They just involve spending some time with another person walking with you and validating and normalizing your situation, having a normal conversation, listening to someone.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 56:28
Like, that's all it took. That is what it takes. It's about community. It's about connection, as you said, and it's about conversation. Um, like how you enable that. And often with men in particular, young men and old men, they're not good at sitting talking about how they feel about things. What they are good at is doing something. So go for a walk, go buy a high-vis vest, go get a coffee, go get a— one guy I work with loves, when I turn up, we'll go across, I buy him a small, small cappuccino and a donut, and we talk. And he will talk about his week, what he's concerned about, what he's scared of. And these guys, as I said, these guys are all ex-prisoners that volunteer with me. They're all scared and anxious. And you kind of go, it's not the people you would expect to be scared, but they are. They're scared of society, they're scared of community, they're scared of what people are going to think and say., and when people are scared, they can end up making a bad decision.
John Milham (Host) · 57:37
So if I was to be, you know, I'm a fairy godfather and I've come along and I have a wand that says I can fund, uh, you know, 5-year programs, uh, any number of them you want. What would— what do you think, uh, my fairy godfather wand could give you that would change things?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 58:02
A peer support program for people pre- and post-jail, where ordinary people, men, are linked with— because the majority of prisoners are men, I'm not just— I'm not avoiding the need of—
John Milham (Host) · 58:15
no, no, absolutely, yeah, that's the stats—
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 58:18
but just normal people, not psychologists, not therapists, just ordinary blokes who could link with someone who's got a need, to be a friend, to be, to walk alongside them, to just go and have a coffee and listen to them, to go have a beer with them somewhere, just spend social time and be there regularly, committed, maybe once a week or maybe on the phone, just a voice, a non-judgmental voice that will listen and and is happy to be, for want of a better term, a friend.
John Milham (Host) · 58:56
So if we're doing peers and basic training in that space could get you there rather than having to have a degree or enter in the program or sign off. But should we roll it out to every town in the country? Is this something for as many people who are incarcerated or as many people who are feeling distress, shouldn't there be a peer available?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 59:21
Absolutely. There should be. I mean, I think you've got to remember as well, though, if you're, say, a veteran suffering PTSD, they need support, but people are willing to do that because it's a good cause. When you talk about prisoners, people committing crime, it's not such an attractive cause to get people to want to connect with. But absolutely, you don't want professionals. You don't want someone trained in whatever therapy, um, or discipline. You want ordinary people who can just spend time non-judgmentally, listen, talk, go for a coffee, have a smoke, go for a walk, buy some, you know, groceries, whatever. Help them, you know, go to this in Vinnie's and get some furniture, let's set up a flat. I'll be at the end of a phone, just someone's having a crisis, we'll take that. I'll get phone calls because I've given my number out, and people, they won't phone and say, I'm in crisis. They'll phone and go, is this your number, Phil? Yeah, it is. And I was just wondering, what do you think about— it's like, and then we have a conversation. They're having an anxiety attack, or it could be post-traumatic stress, or it's from their trauma. They've seen someone that's triggered them, or someone said something. They just need to talk. So I think, in answer to your question, it should be in every town, in every city, in every suburb. There should be a network of people, volunteers, who are willing to be peers. I think that's the answer.
John Milham (Host) · 1:01:02
What do you know about yourself and the world now after this incredible journey through both work and calling? Really, it's a purpose. You didn't have to put yourself into those very challenging and almost universally unhappy places, right? Where you're dealing with people who are sort of unhappy in many ways.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 1:01:29
Oh, look, that's certainly true that I've seen and lived in the darkness, um, but in those moments of darkness, I've learned to find the light. And I always used to, when I was training staff, I would always say, look, it might be dark in the tunnel, but there is always a light. Might be a very flickering candle, but walk to the light, seek the light. And that's not about faith or religion or anything. It's just there is always something you can find. There's the spark of humanity. It's always there somewhere. And what I've learned about myself is that I've met a lot of wonderful people, interesting people, some amazing characters. I've been lucky to work in those places, and my life's been enriched by those connections. Whether they're prisoners, people with a disability, the homeless, adolescents, people with mental health problems. My world, my life, my outlook is much— has been enhanced so much. I'm the lucky one to have worked with those people because they've given me more than I've ever given them.
John Milham (Host) · 1:02:43
That's a— that's an incredibly encouraging space for us to be, to sort of wind up. But I'd like you to ask, um, so many questions left unasked, right? So I, it's been fascinating, um, and, uh, and, and what a, you know, like, all the contribution you've made to your fellow man. But, um, just want to ask, what, um, what chance have we got? Like, it seems like community, these problems are getting bigger, right? You know, we're building— we've got more people under incarceration, I think, since, like, uh, you know, per capita since we were a penal colony, right? So are we going to get through? What, you know, what's your feeling about, you know, all the social determinants and all the things that are happening?
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 1:03:34
Don't lose faith in humanity. You know, we've been challenged before, um, throughout history, but in the end, goodness, if you want humanity care, even at the darkest times, that's when you tend to get humanity come to the fore. And for all, you know, the theatrical thing, newspapers, live TV, only it lives and dies on bad news. Like, because good news is not as exciting. Um, but the majority, if you unpack the data, so as you said before, the number of youth crimes, that's actually very low. The number of crime, the level of crime in New South Wales is actually incredibly low. Like, it's stranger dangers, incredibly rare. Crime generally is very, very low as a percentage. Obviously it's horrible if you're a victim of any sort of crime, fully accept that, but as a society as a whole, it's actually very, very safe. That, you know, I think we've lost sight of that, that, you know, I mean, you know, you go out at night and walk around, you know, like how many times do you actually— I mean, over the Christmas, New Year, yes, you have car accidents, sadly there was some drowning and shark attacks, that all made headlines. But in terms of crime, like, outside of organized crime, which is often, you know, drug gangs fighting each other, outside of that, for normal people, young— and young people, the 99% of young people are not committing crime. They go to school, they go to college, they go to uni, they go to work. They're doing ordinary things all of the time. Same with adults. It's a very small percentage of the population commits crime. Like, the risk to you down on the Northern Beaches walking out of your unit or house and going for a walk along the beach— you're more at risk of a shark attack than being mugged, if we're honest.
John Milham (Host) · 1:05:42
No, absolutely. Um, and I— again, that's probably our perspective. It's up to us to explore the perspective of life rather than the perception of life.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 1:05:53
So absolutely. So there you go. That's the hope. That's the light. So embrace the light.
John Milham (Host) · 1:06:00
I'm, I'm with you. I'm gonna, you know, embrace that light. It's been absolutely wonderful to chat. Thank you for sharing, uh, your incredibly varied and, um, service-driven life with us. Um, Kintsugi Heroes, uh, are very grateful for for that, um, uh, very practical wisdom and for, uh, the, the work you've done, Phil. Congratulations, mate. Thank you again.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 1:06:24
No, thank you, John. I appreciate it. I hope it's interesting, useful to some people somewhere. And yeah, continue your good work, and it's been lovely to chat.
John Milham (Host) · 1:06:34
Keep, keep searching for the light. That's where we're gonna go, mate.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 1:06:37
You take care, John, and thank you, and good night.
John Milham (Host) · 1:06:40
You're welcome.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 1:06:41
Cheers.
John Milham (Host) · 1:06:42
Thank you.
Phil Hugill (Guest) · 1:06:42
Yes, bye.
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