Melanie Marshall
The grace between the cracks
A woman learns that loving someone deeply means knowing when to stop trying to save them.
Hear this story
Kintsugi Studio
Melanie Marshall
A woman learns that loving someone deeply means knowing when to stop trying to save them.
Hear this story
Follow the show
Melanie Marshall grew up in a faith-based, loving household, but early on she witnessed what it looks like when mental illness and addiction take hold. Her grandmother escaped an abusive marriage and came to live with the family; her grandfather drank himself to death. Her sister struggled with undiagnosed mental health conditions that confused the whole family. One day, fighting with her sister, Melanie yelled something she would carry shame about for years. That moment pushed her to study psychology, trying to understand what was happening in the minds of people she loved.
Decades later, Melanie met Rob. He was fun, loyal, and said he wanted the family life she was building with her daughter. But after their son was born, the pressure of fatherhood overwhelmed him. He drank more, withdrew, became emotionally disconnected and verbally abusive. Melanie tried everything. She coached, she set boundaries, she wrote letters expressing her love while making clear: get help or we're done. He wouldn't go. She couldn't fill the gap for him, no matter how hard she tried. The hardest conversation of her life came when her five-year-old asked if his dad would die. She told him the truth: only if Dad doesn't get help for the monster he's fighting.
Rob died less than a week after their final phone call, when he told her he wished he could love himself half as much as she loved him. Melanie has learned that you cannot care for someone more than they care for themselves. But she also learned that grief, anger, resentment, and the terrible thoughts that came during those years are all valid. Writing letters, saying things she'd never send, let her process those feelings safely. That's what allowed her to hold both grace and grit, and to keep loving without shame.
“You can't care for somebody more than they care for themselves.”
“It's not about pretending that you're okay when you're not. It is about acknowledging the emotion that you're feeling as absolutely valid.”
“My son liked to describe me not as his carer, but as his reality advisor. What I'm sharing with you is the contrast between what's in your head and facts.”
The hero, today
You can't care for somebody more than they care for themselves, and recognizing that is what allows you to actually protect yourself and your family without abandoning love. When you're pushed so far out of who you know yourself to be that you say something you'd be mortified to hear from someone else, that's a sign your boundaries have been crossed and you need to act. Writing things down, whether you send them or burn them, lets you get your anger and emotion out in a way that's safe and considered, which is what allows you to have grace instead of resentment. Your emotions are exactly what they are, and you don't get to choose them, but you do get to choose how you respond. Acknowledging that your anger and resentment are valid doesn't make you a bad person. Being honest with your children about what's happening, in age-appropriate terms, is how you prepare them for hard truths and let them know they're not responsible for fixing the adult's problem. The word carer doesn't capture what you're actually doing as a reality partner or reality advisor, holding the contrast between what someone believes and what's actually true, whether they like you in that moment or not.
Yes. Melanie Marshall is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
You can't care for somebody more than they care for themselves, and recognizing that is what allows you to actually protect yourself and your family without abandoning love.
When you're pushed so far out of who you know yourself to be that you say something you'd be mortified to hear from someone else, that's a sign your boundaries have been crossed and you need to act.
Writing things down, whether you send them or burn them, lets you get your anger and emotion out in a way that's safe and considered, which is what allows you to have grace instead of resentment.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 00:03
Welcome to the Grit Diaries with Mon and Maz, a place where we share real stories meets real transformation. Each episode, we share the journeys of everyday people who's faced life's hardest moments and found their way to hope, healing, and purpose. May their courage inspire you and in the world around you. Let's get inspired. In this episode of The Grit Diaries, we get to sit in conversation with the wonderful Melanie Marshall. Now, this beautiful lady wears many hats. She's a speaker, she's an author, she's an executive leader in the space of helping organizations through change. But today we actually go into another aspect of her life. We peel back the curtain to what her life has been like as a carer, or what we ended up calling was a reality partner, and her journey with caring for someone with mental illness and addiction, and how the human spirit rose to the top and stayed in love but worked on protecting herself and her family. So I urge you, there's so many nuggets of wisdom and a lot of vulnerability, and if any of you are going through a bit of a carer role in looking after someone that's really struggling, we urge you to watch in. Hello everyone and welcome to another fabulous episode of the Grit Diaries with Mon and Maz. G'day, Mon.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 01:36
Hi, Maz. Lovely to see you again. I'm excited today. Hey, we've got Melanie Marshall. Welcome, Melanie. Hello.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 01:44
Thank you. Let's just hear a little bit about Melanie. She is in the leadership space. She has written her book Adaptive Excellence. It's really aimed at leadership in the workplace. Really looking at turning around what we're all kind of dealing with at the moment. It almost doesn't matter what industry you're in. You know, we're all experiencing elements of toxic workplaces, having to deal with change and building resilience around that. Trust is a really big component. You know, it can be a little bit of a punchy word to use in workplaces, but when we really unpack what that actually means, you know, Melanie has a really good grasp on how that translates into that workplace. So such expertise. She's an author, she's a speaker, and she has a beautiful personal story that maybe doesn't get shared that often, but we're really appreciative. And she's got a really interesting background in the forces as well and working in that health space. So welcome, Melanie, to the Grit Diaries.
More stories
This site is part of Kintsugi Heroes. Visit the main site for the full podcast. If any of these stories hit close to home, support is out there, you don't have to sit with it alone.
Read how we handle these stories ↗
Kintsugi Heroes · Registered Australian not-for-profit · kintsugiheroes.com.au ↗
Your emotions are exactly what they are, and you don't get to choose them, but you do get to choose how you respond. Acknowledging that your anger and resentment are valid doesn't make you a bad person.
This conversation includes a loving family with hard edges, the things you say when you break, the exam that changed everything, joining the air force on a whim, ten years in uniform, still a square peg and the man who wanted a family.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 02:40
Thanks, Maz. Thanks, Mon. And maybe I could be Mel for the day, so be Maz, Mon, and Mel. M&M, but triple M today. That's right, exactly, exactly. But yeah, it's, it's lovely to be here. And yes, my whole life is all about being adaptive. I've definitely got quite a solid background in leadership, and my mission is to make work better for people. I'm not here for that today though, but the background that I have professionally is something that's definitely served me within my personal life. And certainly the story that I'm about to tell is not so much, I don't think, is about grit from my own perspective, but certainly, yeah, maybe a little bit of grit, but definitely a lot of grace and being very giving in a way that was a challenge. Before we do, I just might jump in and say for the listeners, there may be some parts to this that might triggering. If it is, please know you can reach out to Lifeline, 13 11 14.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 03:40
And for all those people that are in the carer space, you know, this is really one to tune into today. So Melanie, let's just sort of take a little bit of a walk back in time and walk back into, you know, what life was like growing up for you and what your family structure was like. And, you know, just things that are coming out of that particular time for you that's relevant to, you know, when you were experiencing that challenge in life?
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 04:05
Yeah, so I came from a very loving family, very traditional, stereotypical— mum, dad, my sister, and I. My family are definitely big on faith, so they've got a very strong faith in God. And then that was really the foundation for our own lives as well, to have a very firm moral compass. And also a big part of that was being able to love unconditionally. So that's kind of the background by way of my family coming through. It's not to say that, you know, was always rosy. I mean, I watched— my dad had 3 jobs at one stage, struggling to keep the house with 18% interest rates.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 04:45
Oh yeah, remember that?
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 04:46
Yeah. So there was always an element of, I guess, you know, struggle and realness to that. But as far as a loving, stable, and secure family, that was definitely something that we had. My part of growing up, I did have some exposure to mental health issues as well as alcoholism. My nan came to live with us after getting out of an abused— like, an abusive relationship where my granddad had tried to kill her. So that was something like, as a child, I didn't really sort of understand what was going on. I just knew that nan was coming to live with us. So, you know, I kind of had two mums for a while. I had my mum, and then I had nan who'd live out the back in the caravan. But as a child growing up, I was sheltered a lot from how that came to be. And it's not until after that I realized, oh wow, we're really lucky that Nan got out when she did and she came to live with us.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 05:42
Thank you for sharing that. And just on that point, Melanie, in hindsight, I mean, you talking about, you know, sort of under the age of 10 or 10 and above?
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 05:52
I can't even remember how old I was when that happened. I think I was in primary school. I just remember that my pop, who I loved, you know, and I think I was a bit of his favorite. I remember him being out the front of our house and me not being able to go out the front to go and see him, you know. And he wasn't well either. He ended up drinking himself into an early grave. So that was like that initial early exposure to a side of life that prior to, other than our beautiful nuclear family that was quite sheltered, We weren't really that sheltered when I think in terms of having to sort of see that. And, you know, Mum and Dad protected my sister and I quite a lot from that story. It wasn't really openly discussed. It was, it was just, well, Nan's with us now. So that was sort of one part of it.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 06:43
The reason why I asked that question is because I know there are some people that might be listening and might be going through something at the moment and have young children. How much do you age appropriately share with them, or is it better just to let them live in that, you know, beautiful innocent child bubble. And just as you say, your memories of that time is that, well, just Nan just came to live with us. And, you know, there's protecting that innocence, you know, rather than sort of having to layer the heaviness around it. And, you know, the question always is, is that enough? And do they need to know anymore? So are you glad that that's the way your mum—
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 07:21
I think it was enough. I knew the explanation for it was that Pop was unwell, and although he loved me a lot, there were things that weren't part of his character because of how he was. It just— we couldn't see him anymore, you know, it was unsafe. As I got older, I then found out what had happened to Nan. It was like, wow, okay, great. But at the time, I think it was sort of more incremental, and it was only when I asked questions at a later stage where, you know, Mum was sort of quite matter-of-fact about it. No gory, horrible details, but enough for me to go, oh right, now I'm going to stop asking questions. I now understand why this has happened. So look, I think Mum and Dad handled it brilliantly, to be honest. I don't think they could have handled it any better.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 08:12
And anyone that's out there listening and they're in a sort of a predicament that might have shades of what you experienced, that's sort of confirming. So thank you.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 08:20
You have to— kids are smart, right? They're not idiots. They pick up on feelings, they pick up on vibes, and you do have to give them some sense of information that they can understand of what's okay and what is not okay. They don't need the details per se, but they need to know enough that either someone's not well and they need to go and get help, and that help isn't something that we can give them, or they need to have a, a, you know, access to a network of people that they can speak to outside of the family if they needed to, to talk through what their response was or what they're feeling regarding that. So yeah, like, I definitely— and, and I will touch on a little bit later around the big challenge that I went through, particularly with my son and his dad, a little bit later, because what happened with my nan was horrible and horrific for her. That's not part of, I guess, the story that I'm here for today, but it's only really just like talking to you, I've gone, oh yeah, you know, like as a kid there's always elements of that within the community that we don't necessarily see or we don't necessarily fully acknowledge. And I think alcohol in particular— and that was my Pop's demon— it's such a social drug. It's not until it becomes a real issue that people go, oh wow, oh, that's horrible, you know. So I'll talk about alcoholism from the perspective of a carer a little bit later, but that was my first introduction to where not everybody is all happy and healthy, and sometimes people misuse substances in order to mask or deal with other things that they're going— that are best dealt with in other ways. So that was sort of one part of it, but then the other part was, you know, my sister, growing up with her, she had epilepsy and other sorts of mental health issues that were really hard to diagnose. So if I think in terms of Rochelle She had a horrible cocktail of all kinds of stuff. At one point they thought she had schizophrenia, then she had a different type of epilepsy, then it wasn't this and it was something else. So there was always something going on with her that was hard to understand, but also hard to manage at times. You know, for me as a kid, it was sort of getting into later towards high school where my sister and I found it hard to kind of connect on a relationship level. We were close in primary school, but then in high school things became a bit more complicated. The thing that I found hard was what was the line between the stuff that she was going through from a mental health perspective and then an active choice of her behavior and acting out. So lines are always blurry when it comes to mental health, and when you're on the outside looking in, that was an early indicator for me that, wow, okay, it's tough going for the family, it's tough going for the person going through it, and it's tough going for people who are, you know, on the outside looking in, for anybody who has a mental health issue. And I think part of my story today, it's not so much focused on them, it's focused on if you're a carer or if you love somebody who is difficult to love because of illnesses or what they've got going on. That's why I'm here to talk today, because I think so much focus is put on the people who are going through the trauma that you're not recognizing that you're going through vicarious trauma yourself. And some of the things that you think in those moments are horrible, nasty things. I remember as a kid one of the worst things that I said to my sister. We were in the kitchen doing the dishes and she was obviously going through some kind of an episode. Once again, didn't really understand it. And I I remember us arguing and her becoming really sort of like aggressive, and she said at the time, 'Well, I want to kill myself.' And with all of the anger that I felt and all of the frustration, I remember yelling back to her, 'Just do it!' And it's something that I've never forgave myself for over a number of years. I'm gonna get a little bit teary. I have now. But yeah, like, that was kind of you know, outside of the beautiful family unit that we had, nobody would really know the inner workings of some of those other things that you can't really protect anyone from. And that's the reality. You can't protect people from that. You've got to be really open about it and go, whoa, okay, well, what's that about?
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 13:00
Thank you.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 13:02
I went straight to something I said to my little brother that I wished I never said. I think everybody's got something they've said that they just wish they could rewind back. When you don't have an understanding, even when you do understand it, and I definitely did later on, I mean, part of the reason why I studied psychology, it wasn't so much because I felt like I was messed up and needed to diagnose myself. It was more I wanted to understand, or like, the way that my sister's brain worked, you know, so that I could be more connected to her. And I, I didn't overtly understand that that was my motivation to study psychology until many years after. But I'm absolutely convinced that that's what it was about. It was about how do you understand the psychology of not only somebody going through that type of torment, but also how do you respond yourself and do your own self-care so that you don't amplify the problem, but at the same time acknowledge that your feelings and your reactions are also totally valid, you know, totally valid.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 14:08
Again, I just really want to sort of, you know, use what you've said in the sense that when you say things, and as you just mentioned, Mon, you know, and I've got mine as well when my mum was sick, you know, we've all said something that we blurted out that it's like, oh, if I could take that back. But to me, what that speaks to is it has pushed you so far out of who you know yourself to be that you were in such shock that you went and said something that you would be mortified if you heard somebody else say it, but that came out of your mouth. So I think to your point, it's that self-care, but it's what boundaries have I allowed to be crossed? What am I not putting in place? What is it that I need to do? I don't know. What are the things that I can't control that I need to surrender? What are the things that I can control? What do I need to do about removing myself from situations? What is it that is, you know, something in front of me that I'm having a challenge accepting, but it is real? And my one was when my beautiful mum had brain cancer and being a nurse, I care for people day in, day out, and it was exhausting. And just, you know, sort of 3 young kids and then, you know, working and my mum and being the nurse in the family. And at one point, you know, in the very early stages was I said to my husband, I think he was mortified. I said, I get paid to do this. And he was a really good reflection for me. That he's like, Marian. But in the moment, the feeling was really valid because there was so much on my shoulders to be in charge of this whole landscape, plus my kids, plus work, everything else. And so I allow myself the grace. I was pushed to my limits and I was just reorientating myself to a situation or orientating myself to a situation, and I just need to get my bearings. And it's almost like sometimes those things are such shock that they come out of your own mouth that it's actually not a negative thing in the sense it actually lets you know where you're at. And it's actually you spoken out loud how pushed you feel, and it just kind of almost like releases the valve a little bit.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 16:23
I was gonna say that it's absolutely a release. I mean, when I look back to my childhood, I mean, that's '80s, '90s, right? And back then we didn't have the type of awareness that we have now around mental illness, addiction. We definitely didn't really kind of have the sorts of strategies that we have access to now by way of what does wellness look like, how can we take care of ourselves. There's also more education, more support now for people who are in a carer type situation. So all credit to anybody who's gone through those sorts of things, you know, 10, 15 even 20-plus years ago, because what we've got now as opposed to what we had then, worlds apart. So I have so much respect for my parents and what they went through. Yeah, because they were flying blind, right? They were flying so blind. And even when, you know, yes, they had their church family around them, there was so much that wasn't known, wasn't understood, even by clinicians and doctors. So I'm really grateful that as a community we're definitely getting a lot better. I definitely think the way to go, some more wraparound support for people who are caring, you know. And even if you don't necessarily, you know, connect with the word as a carer— and I know I never have, I've never seen myself as a carer in that regard, and more of a somebody in the mix, you know, a family member, as a family member or as a partner— I never saw myself as a carer. Yeah, but, but you do, you do Yeah. Anyway, so I, I just wanna just jump in there and say two things. I think it's the rebellious teenager when you're out of sorts and you know you've gone into it. I've done a lot of 12-step work and that's the, you know, the rebellious teenager when you blurt out things you really regret you're saying, rather than being in your, your true adult self. You jump into that because you're just so frustrated. But also I will say my son liked to describe me not as his carer, but as his reality advisor. And I— yeah, great, great reframe. Yes, I wrote to Carers Australia, and for listeners out there, please know that's a fantastic organization if you do not know of Carers Australia, to reach them for incredible resources that they have. But I wrote to Carers Australia and said, maybe you need to change the word from carer to reality advisor at times. I love that. That is— that's such a— that's such an empowering reframe, not just for you but also for them. Yeah, because when I think in terms of what, what happened to my son's father, or my ex-partner Rob, he didn't want to be cared for because he already felt guilty enough, right? If I had been able to go, well, I'm really a reality partner right now, and what I'm, what I'm sharing with you is the contrast between what's in your head and facts. So you can choose to continue down what's going on in your head, or you can look at the cold hard facts, whether you like me right now or not. And You can decide. Yeah, the word carer kind of attaches a little bit to helplessness too. Yes. Yeah. And I don't want to be helpless, right? It's actually not the point. The point of getting well and healthy is to be able to keep yourself— move beyond that word. But we'll see. Yeah. You could argue that some carers become enablers too, right? So not so much reality partners, but more enablers. And I think anybody who has gone through any type of journey, whether it be, you know, mental health issues, whether it's, you know, addiction type issues, at some point, if we're really honest with ourselves, we've enabled behaviors in some way, shape, or form because it's been the path of least resistance or it's just been like that, ah, you know, you do you, you know.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 20:15
Sometimes you don't even really realize it. It's like, you know, the frog in the pot, you know, that's just slow heating up of the pot that, you know, you're not even really aware of it. And before, you know, once it reaches a boiling point, well, you're cooked. But if the frog had jumped in, you know, obviously when it's a higher temperature, well, it would have just gone straight out. So, you know, it becomes that immersive sort of, you know, environment that you're swimming in. I know that you've mentioned that before. Reality advisor. I love that. Reality advisor and reality partner. It's good. So you know, after this time you ended up in, in the forces. How the heck did that happen?
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 20:52
Yeah, well, look, I was a nerd who never got any benefits out of being a nerd. And I'm sorry, I studied, I was at school, I always wanted to do well, I was good in classes, I, I was quite engaged, you know, I loved sport. I was— wasn't ever really that rebellious teen. I, I ticked all of the right boxes. And when it came to my end of year exams and back and back then it was like 70% of the weighting for your final score was all on the final exams, and I ended up having exam anxiety to the point where when I went and did my exams, I was hard-pressed to write my name on the top of the paper because back then we still had blackboards. It was like having all of the stuff written on a blackboard or whiteboard or however you want to say it now, and then all of a sudden having all of that information there and you're going, yep, I've got it, I've been studying this, this is great. And then right before the exam, somebody just wiping it all off. And that's exactly what it was like when I sat down to do my exams. So instead of getting the result that I probably deserved, or I felt that I deserved, out of 100, I think I was like in the bottom 15th to 30th percentile. So I couldn't even get into like the lowest course for university. So what that taught me as a young kid, or, you know, putting their effort in was it didn't matter how much I— how hard I tried, I was an idiot. Fantastic way to go off into the world and go, right, well, what do I want to do now? My dad said that I was sort of interested in the military, but as I remember it, I wanted to be a clinical child psychologist. That was going to be my mission. And when I couldn't get into uni, I was absolutely devastated. You know, it was like, well, that was the plan. I didn't have any plan other than go to school, go to uni, and then Yeah, when that rug got pulled out from under me, I can still see the look on my parents' face when I showed them my score. Like, it was just that heartbreaking, we don't have words kind of face.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 23:01
I'm not even going to try and fluff this.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 23:03
No, no, there's nothing.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 23:05
I don't have it in me.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 23:07
No, nothing they could have said to take away my absolute horror and deflation. But anyway, long story short, yeah, Dad said, oh yeah, about the military. He was in the Army Reserves at one point, but they wouldn't take him for whatever reason. But he'd mentioned that. I'm like, okay, all right, yeah, I'll give it a go. I've got nothing else that I can really think about. So I went to the recruitment office and I met with somebody who was in the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force. I happened to like the Air Force guy more than the other two. I didn't like the notion of being away for months and months, you know, in the field or on a ship. And I went, well, one day I'm probably going to want to have a family and kids, and the Air Force seemed to be a little bit more, you know, flexible for that. So yeah, I ended up joining the Air Force. The thinking was I'd get in and join for, for sort of 6 years and then maybe go and become a mature age university student if they'd have me, if I wasn't too dumb, and then do psychology then and get into that space. So I ended up doing 10 years in the Air Force. I was a clerk at first, so a lot of admin work. Then I became an imagery intelligence intelligence analyst, which was hilarious because even the word intelligence, I thought for sure somebody was going to tap me on the shoulder and go, hey kid, the gig is up, we know that you're an idiot, get out. But nobody ever did. Even though I continued to fail exams and had to resit them because I hadn't quite mastered the, the exam process yet, I still managed to get through.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 24:39
So look, it's funny though, it's like the universe knew your absolute capabilities and was putting you in a position that, you know, in the title was even called intelligence. Like, come on, catch up, Mel. Like, you know, we know what your goods are. Can you just work this out? Get over your exam anxiety and look at it.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 24:59
Yeah, look, I always felt like I was a square peg in a round hole, to be honest. Like, we're trying to squeeze into a round hole. And I felt that, I'd say, for much of my adult life. That, you know, square peg trying to, you know, force into a round hole. And it's really only been the last few years where I'm like, you know what, out on my own, gonna do my own business, that's going to be my thing. This is the only time really that I've ever felt like I am who I am meant to be and I'm on the right path. But prior to that, I'd say for most of the time, I was always trying to fit into other different ways of working. But look, I spent 10 years in the Air Force. I had an absolute blast for the most part while I was there. It taught me a lot about discipline, taught me a lot about grit, you know, that back then the military was very much designed to break you down and then mold you into what they want you to be. So that sort of worked to a certain degree, but then you get to a point where you go, you know what, I don't want to be told where I'm living, I don't want to be told what jobs I can and can't go for, and I don't want to be told you know, whether or not I can get a promotion and do something different. So yeah, I left there, became a personal trainer, then got into the public service. I was married at the time to my daughter's dad. Our marriage ended shortly after I left the Air Force, and then I didn't really have enough time between when I ended that relationship and then going into the next one because I was very much brought into a, you know, a Christian family of, you know, no sex before marriage. So if you get into those sorts of relationships, well then you've really got to, you know, get into something meaningful. So rightly or wrongly, I jumped into the next relationship, and then that was with Rob. So Hayden, my son's dad, Rob was fun. And I'm speaking about him in past tense because he's no longer with us, and that's part of the reason why sharing my story today. It's very much about the journey with Rob and, and what we went through and how he came through the other side. We were into the same sorts of things by way of— he was sporty and he was very, very much connected to his family. So he was very loyal, very loving for his family, and they were everything for him. So yeah, at the time that I met Rob, he was still living very much a bit of a singles party life, and I had my daughter. My daughter I was, you know, 7 at the time. And I said to Rob, look, I know that you live this lifestyle, I'm not here to change that, but if you and I want to be a thing, I need you to know that, you know, some of those party ways that you have— because he would go out on weekends, they'd have big benders, you know, they'd take party drugs, they'd, you know, that— I said, I'm not judging that, but that's never going to be me. And if we're going to have a serious relationship, it can't be you either, because I never want to ever have an accident where I'm explaining to my daughter why you've died on a dance floor. So it's either now or never. What do you want to do? And he said, nope. He said, I want a family, you know. I love you. I love Hayley. That's the direction that I want to go in. I'm like, okay, not a problem. So yeah, so we formed a really good relationship. There was always, I guess, an element of distance in that he always felt the pull, the pull between being a family man or a dad to my daughter when his friends weren't at that stage of life yet. So there was always this challenge and this push and pull for him. Eventually a number of his friends had, you know, got together, they had kids. Then the dynamic of his friendship group and then us, it started to feel a little bit more natural and normal as they gave certain habits and behaviors away. But that was kind of always, I guess, the friction point in our relationship is, well, do you really want this or do you want that?
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 28:57
So kind of having one foot in one bucket, another foot in the other bucket. Yeah. And yeah, did it start for you to just go, whoa, hang on, this is really impacting my world? It's affecting, I'm assuming, how you're feeling of, you know, emotional, I don't know, like physical safety.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 29:14
But just when did it start to just sort of go, oh yeah, yeah, look, and And, you know, I mentioned a little bit before and how we sort of let things sort of slide to a certain degree. And like, it's like that frog in the pot, it was always simmering. And I never, never really paid too much attention to the red flags that I should have back then because, you know, I do have a tendency to love unconditionally, you know. And I recognized also that he was making a transition between one type of lifestyle and another. So that level of understanding in me probably made me be more generous with certain things and putting my own needs at the back.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 29:56
That really speaks to—
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 29:57
probably could have.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 29:59
That speaks into— and, you know, I'm very much about, you know, we can have logic, but it's the beliefs that sit in the background and those hardwired beliefs, and they serve us well in certain aspects of life and probably give you a bit more resilience and ability to kind of like one foot in front of the other. And then where's the tipping point where it's actually, you know what, it was actually not meant to be applied in this situation. Yeah, yeah.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 30:22
Well, you tend to overplay a strength, right? Like, for every strength there's a dark side, and if you overplay it, you can get into a bit of strife yourself. So where it really kind of became noticeable was when we decided to have our son Hayden. So that was the point of no return for Rob, because it was was all of a sudden he was now a dad, and the pressure of being a dad was, I think, a lot greater than he'd ever anticipated. Because although he had nieces and a nephew, and although he had my daughter, you know, it's still very different when you are now the parent, right? So there was a whole stack of work that wasn't quite anticipated. You know, babies are babies. You know, they're demanding. Hayden in particular, he wasn't one who slept, you know, and I'm not kidding you, like I'd be up 4, 5, 6 times a night and during the day he'd be lucky to get maybe 15 or 20 minutes to the point where I thought there might have been something wrong with my son because he did not sleep the way that you would expect or even I'd heard of for anybody else. So I think that pressure became very, very real. And Rob and I would argue more, you know. He didn't have the freedom that he once had. It's like, well, you know, you asked to be a family man, this is it. There's a lot of responsibility. And I think prior to that— Rob and I met when he was 29, but he'd had quite a long period of time where he didn't have to adult. When I reflect back of his lifestyle, he was very much part of the footy culture. You go out, you have your big Mad Mondays, benders. You go out on weekends, you write yourself off for a weekend, and then you kind of eke through work, and then you do it again. So he would have done that for at least 10, almost 15 years of partying like that. And now all of a sudden, boom, you're a dad. It's, you know, and not only are you a dad to your own son, but you're also a stepfather to an 8-year-old daughter. So big, big responsibility. And he didn't have anybody else in his friendship group who had anything like that. So I think there was a lot going on in his mind, and that's when things started to slide. He would distance himself from me. He'd be in one room, I'd be in the other. He'd be watching the same sorts of shows, rinse and repeat. We wouldn't really have any kind of conversations, and when we did, it was, they were sort of arguments over like nothing. He was then starting to drink more. And I'm thinking, you know, this is not cool because he wasn't somebody who could have a couple of drinks stop. He was somebody who once he started, it would be a bender. And although that used to be, you know, when he'd go out with the friends and it would be managed throughout the week, he then was starting to drink during the week, you know, and it wouldn't be much— it would be easy for him to finish, you know, a bottle of wine a night on his own. And then I was starting to drink more because, well, I was having a drink with him. So it was this sort of, you know, sort of weird dynamic that we had going on where we started to feel more like we were just housemates as opposed to partners. And although the kids weren't in any danger and I was always sober, where it started to become an issue was if I would go out and then I'd come back. Like, I could go out and watch a movie on my own and come back, and then Rob would be smashed on the couch, like almost incoherent on the couch. I'd be like, how does that happen in a, in a 2-hour time frame? So then I had to start changing my behavior, and I couldn't go out anymore because he was there looking after the kids, and you can't look after kids when you're in that space. So he wasn't ever violent, but he was absolutely emotionally disconnected and neglectful, and he became verbally abusive. And it was more about me not understanding him, him not understanding me, me trying to save him or help him because because I had a lot of skills, you know. I'd been coaching for years by that stage. So, you know, as a coach, here I am trying to coach my partner who doesn't want it, you know, because I'm now feeding into him feeling helpless and lost. Just the dynamic was all wrong, and it just got worse and worse. And I said to him, that's very clear that I can't help you, but you need to go and speak to somebody about this. This, and if you don't speak to somebody about this, our relationship is not going to last. You know, we want this family. Like, it's clear that we actually do love each other, but we are not connecting. This is not sustainable. This is not the life that we want. Please go and see someone. And the one time that I can remember, like, in the early stages where he did go and speak to somebody— and I know that when you go to a counselor or even on a conversation like this, right, I'm only going to share what I want to share with So he went to, to a counselor, and when he came back from a counselor, I said, you know, how did that go? He said, oh, well, I spoke to the counselor and they said that I don't have an alcohol problem and that I'm not an alcoholic, I'm just slightly abusing alcohol. I was like, okay, regardless of what they're thinking is, are you going to go and continue to see them? So he's like, no, well, I don't really think I need it at this So the cycle just kept continuing and it just got worse and worse because I would then start to feel like I was putting more pressure on him than what he was able to handle. He was fighting back on me and it was just this unsustainable, horrible kind of vibe.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 36:32
Where was your tipping point that, you know, was the straw that broke the camel's back? What was your tipping point?
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 36:37
Yeah, the tipping point would have been the time frame between me going out and then me coming home. So even if I just went and ran like an errand to the shop and then came back, he'd be paralytic on the couch when I came home. And I'm like, there's got to be something else that's going on here. I don't need to know what that thing is. He just needs to go and get help, and he needs to go and get help now. So that was the tipping point. The other tipping point was he wasn't going and getting the help that he needed from other people. He wasn't willing to talk to me or able to talk to me because he always felt like I had all of the words and the skills and he didn't have any. So that would then hardwire this pushback, this anger, this guilt, this frustration, because he couldn't articulate what was going on for him because he didn't understand it. And every question that I asked just felt worse and amplified the fact that he should have known the answers in his own mind, but he didn't. But the tipping point came when I had to end up starting to write letters because he wouldn't talk to me. So it's like, well, I'm going to write what I'm feeling in a letter in the hope that you will go and get help. So that every letter had the same theme. It was, you know, I love you. I know that you're going through a hard place right now. I know that I'm not the person who can help you through this. This, please go and see someone, you know, please go and see a professional and get on top of this now because I don't want to lose what we've got.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 38:13
I think what's really important while you're talking, Mel, is for the viewers that are watching right now that are perhaps having shades of maybe what you've experienced, is that they might be able to hear or kind of like, oh, that's kind of happening for me. It might be in the early stages or in the latter stages. I think sometimes this is a really good way to kind of reflect the reality if we can be the reality partners.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 38:36
Yeah.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 38:36
Now that, you know, as you say, things get blurred and, you know, it's, it's, you're in the soup. That it is, is absolutely not okay and there is something amiss. And I think to your point is that you've highlighted over and over again is that I'm not your person to help you, that this is beyond our relationship, this is beyond me. And again, you know, it's kind of really validating that for the people that are watching. Oh yeah.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 39:04
And I mean, look, if anybody's got the skills to be able to do that, it's me. You know, I was a crisis support worker for a while. I have a psychology background. I'm known for my skills as a coach. So if I'm— leaky tap or the builder's house, it's pretty hard to do your own work on, you know, within your family. That's right, exactly. External help. But I mean, your partner doesn't want that relationship with you. That's not why you're there. And you don't want that relationship with them. You know, to your point, Maz, you know, where you go, I get paid for this, you know, that's not your relationship when you're in a family unit, right? You're not there to work. You're not there to be their counselor or their psychologist. You are there because you're the person who is part of their family. Me, that's it, you know. And once those lines start to get blurry, so much resentment starts to build, you know. He was resenting me, I was resenting him. We just weren't great for each other anymore. And yeah, so I wrote the letter. Writing for me, I think, was the tipping point, but it also saved me because it really made me think very carefully around what I needed to say in a way that was respectful for both of us. And it helped me provide myself with a bit of a boundary to go, I'm showing you that I love you without judgment, but at the same time, I'm also making sure that I'm looking after myself and also looking after our kids, you know. And so I wrote one letter, it fell on deaf ears. I wrote a second letter, once again fell on deaf ears. And then, and I said to him after this, that will be the end of us. You know, I will— just so you know, I will never ever stop you from seeing our son, ever. That's, you know, because I recognize that underneath all of this, you are a good man. I will always have love for you, and that you're a good father outside of all of that. So I will always give you access to our son, and you're never ever going to have an issue with us fighting over that. The other thing with Rob is that he had witnessed a really messy separation from my daughter's father and I. That was not nice. That was really nasty, really spiteful. And he was adamant that he didn't want that happening between us for our son because he'd seen the pain of what a broken home was like through my daughter's eyes and through mine. So it was very clear what we didn't want if it was going to get to that. Unfortunately, Rob continued to be in denial. He continued to think that he he could sort this mess out himself, which we all know anybody who's dealt with mental health and addiction— addiction generally is the thing that people lean into to be able to mask their mental health or try and self-soothe with their mental health issues. He was in denial that he could sort it out on his own and he just needed the space. Unfortunately, when you're in a mess, the space can actually amplify the mess because you've got no reality partner coming in, you've got no one to kind of hold up the red flags to go, pull up, you're about to, you know, tank hard. But unfortunately, it came to the third letter. And on that third letter, yeah, Rob read it, totally broke down. It was the first time that I'd actually seen him really break down into tears. And he said, if you leave me, I will be so broken and busted. And it was in that moment that I knew I knew that I was doing the absolutely the right thing because the reason why he wasn't going and getting the help, because I kept filling the gap, you know, like, well, I was always there. Well, then I was always going to be there and it was just never going to improve.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 43:01
I always call it Sally's No More Gaps, you know, you become the glue that kind of sticks things together and eventually just doesn't—
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 43:09
until you can't, right? You're putting glue on cracks that maybe you shouldn't. Yeah, yeah.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 43:16
If we were to look at your nuggets of wisdom, I mean, it's obviously been a really, really challenging time, and, you know, we know you as extremely successful in, you know, just in who you are as a human being and obviously in your business life, and no doubt as a beautiful mum. In those difficult situations, what are your nuggets of wisdom that you've taken away that you can share with beautiful audience that's really usable and instrumental.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 43:40
I think the most challenging moment that I didn't share was— the hardest moment was actually explaining what was happening to my son. And what I did have to do was be very open and honest with Hayden around what was happening. So when Rob and I split, we still maintained a 50/50 custody. And I had said to Rob, you have to agree with me that if at any point in time you can't keep it together in the week that you've got Hayden, you call me. I will look after Hayden, and then we'll manage visitation in a way that's healthy for both of you. But promise me that. So we actually became better friends outside of our relationship than what we were when we were together. So we became closer apart. He ended up going and getting the help that he needed. But I remember one conversation, I think this is the hardest conversation I've ever had in my life, and it was driving my son to school this one particular day, and he said, "Is Dad gonna die?" And I said to Hayden, "Yes, mate. If Dad does not pull up and get the support that he needs," to be able to manage the demon that he's got, and that's what, you know, we called it the monster. If he can't manage this monster, and Hayden was about 5 at the time, if Dad can't manage this monster or find somebody to help fight that with him and we can't do that, yes, that is going to happen. When the last conversation I had with Rob, he'd realized that he had to go and move back home to around where the supports were, like closer to his family, because he followed us up to Queensland and moved with us. You know, we'd had many conversations over the years where he was suicidal, and I'd spoken to him about how he could keep himself safe so he didn't end his life. And I'm convinced that he didn't. But the last conversation I had with him, he said, you know, I want to thank you for everything that you have done for me because I love you. And I said, well, I love you too, and I just wish that you would love yourself even half as much. And then I got the phone call on the Friday, so the, you know, less than a week later, that Rob had died. And yeah, so the hardest conversation was with my son to say, yeah, Dad's gone. And I'm grateful though, because we'd spent many years preparing for it. You know, we talk about the horrible things that we say out loud, the horrible things that we think when we're going through those moments with people. Every single one of those horrible things that we think or say is absolutely valid because we don't get to choose our emotions. We choose how we respond. And I have no shame in the horrible evil things that I thought many times over the years, but I found ways to be able to vent them in a way that was safe. And respectful. So for people who are going through, who are in the thick of it right now, it's not about pretending that you're okay when you're not. It is about acknowledging the emotion that you're feeling as absolutely valid. You're entitled to feel angry, you're entitled to feel resentful because you're hurting too. And whether or not you write letters to yourself, you write horrible letters to the person that you're feeling that emotion towards, but it's a letter that you never send and burn and you shred it, whatever you need to do, you've got to let your own anger and emotion out. And that's the thing that actually allows you to have grace and grit through it all. So yeah, I still miss Rob, absolutely, you know. And I think the reason why I miss him is because I was able to have those moments of grace. I was able to acknowledge my own pain and process that as a normal, natural way of healing, that I was also able to allow my children to be able to have those conversations as well about times where they were angry or they were upset and go, you know what, it's okay and you're entitled to feel the way that you feel. How do we want to respond to those? You know, how do you want to manage these in a way that will allow you to continue to love in the way that you want to love? So Yeah, I think that's probably one of the most important things, and the actual, the absolute acceptance that you can't care for somebody more than they care for themselves. Yeah, so in knowing that, I'm grateful that it wasn't suicide. You know, we lost Rob because it was a bender that he didn't pull up from. We knew that that was going to happen at some point. For the family and I, I'm still very close to his family. It was a relief, a sadness, but it was a relief because of the pain that he was in. We know that he's no longer in that pain. And was it preventable? Yeah, all of these things, absolutely preventable. But, you know, for somebody who's going through that themselves, they have to want to do the work. They have to accept where they're at. They've got to do the work to be able to be healthy and whatever that takes. It's hard work to be well, even when you don't have those extra struggles of mental illness, you know. To be human, it takes effort, it takes work. And the summary for me would be, you know, regardless of what you're going through, regardless of the people that you love are going through, accept that your emotions are exactly what they are. Acknowledge them, own them, find a way to process them safely, For me, it was writing because the physical act of writing allowed it to get out in a way that was considered. Once it was out, I was able to let it go. Do I have any regrets? Absolutely not. Do I still move forward with absolute love? You bet. And yeah, I'm grateful for the entire experience regardless of the outcome, because if I wasn't, I wouldn't have a really great human being who's still So yeah. Oh, Melanie, that's a big story. I want to thank you for sharing your story as a carer and the powerlessness that you had for someone that's in the active disease of addiction. And it is disease. And I know, uh, Johann Hari talks a lot about it as a fabulous writer, about addiction and the impact that it has, the uncomfortability of someone that can't sit in their own skin. They have to try to escape. And disease is disease. It's disconnection. And it's so challenging for a partner or a carer of someone that you did all the right things to do, because it's only through the gift of desperation that some people discover that they've got to go and do the hard work to step forward and reach out to programs like AA. And that is all there with connection. And available for people if they want to take it. But if they choose not to and they choose to make up their own stories with their counselors, then that is their journey. And great what you've done. Even if they do, it takes multiple shots at it. It's not like you'll go to your first retreat and then it'll all be okay. Or, you know, you go to 5 or 6 meetings and then you get the magic star that says, woohoo. You know, like the journey is different for every single person.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 51:09
Yeah.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 51:09
Yeah, big reprogramming. So yeah, and look, we, we do the best we can with what we've got, and I think being kind to ourselves in that.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 51:18
Yeah, Melanie, thank you again. My sentiments are same as Mon's for your vulnerability in sharing at depth what this journey's been like for you and your vulnerability with really sort of owning and validating your experience. As the carer, the reality advisor, partner, whoever works, and having ways. And that's what, you know, we're hoping that the viewers are going to take from this, is having a portal to get that out, to— it's okay to own it, you know, your— how you're feeling, that all feelings are valid, the good, the bad, the ugly, and having a way. And for you, it was in letter writing, and I think that's going to be super helpful. Yeah, or a lot of people out there. Whether you choose to send it or not, it's a whole different kettle of fish. And I think then too, it also speaks to, you know what, there's that beautiful sense of wanting another human being to be okay, and your beautiful sentiment of despite the circumstances, you made the right choices, you know, to keep people safe, etc. But there's a compassion for another human being, and you know, doing what you need to do to protect yourself and your family. But there's— you can feel it, you can see it, you know, in the emotion and how you frame things, that there is— you know, we're human beings, we want people to be well, we want them to thrive. And you know, it's okay to still care for someone, but— and it's also very much okay that you protect yourself as well. So thank you for sharing all of that. There was a lot in that, and we really appreciate your time. Line. And I know that, uh, Mon, did we have— was it Lifeline that we were—
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 52:58
yeah, 13 11 14. Reach out to Lifeline. They have incredible services and certainly can guide anyone who's got a partner or someone in their family or in their community that they are supporting as, you know, carer's role. And also Carers Australia, please look at their website. And if you are on the other side like Melanie, you can also sign up and be on the Career Registry where they're looking for people that have got backgrounds as carers that can add input into mental health reform.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 53:30
Beautiful. Well, with that, Melanie, thank you so much for being here with us on the Grit Diaries.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 53:36
Yeah, you're most welcome. Thank you for having me. Thank you, Melanie. Nice to have a triple M in action.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 53:43
We've got a cohort of triple M's, a few lovely guests. We've been people who are M&M's and wear triple M's.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 53:52
And thank you.
Mon & Mazz (Host) · 53:53
Bye. Thanks, Mon. Thanks, Maz.
Melanie Marshall (Guest) · 54:02
Thank you for joining us on The Grit Diaries: From Grit to Grace. If today's story has moved you, share it with someone who needs a little hope. Remember, from grit we can find grace, and from grace we can can find inspiration. Until next time, look for the joy, keep safe, stay grounded, and never forget that there is a strength within your own story. Take care.
You don't have to be in crisis to call.
Subscribe
Spotify
Apple