Karl Germann
The 20-year fog
Karl discovered his authentic self only after leaving the corporate world that demanded he hide it, at 48.
Hear this story
Follow the show
Kintsugi Studio
Karl Germann
Karl discovered his authentic self only after leaving the corporate world that demanded he hide it, at 48.
Hear this story
Follow the show
Karl grew up in South Africa in a von Trapp-like household: privilege without warmth, an Austrian engineer father and a narcissist mother, and the constant vigilance that comes from being a queer kid before you know it. He learned early not to speak about his own needs. When he suspected his sexuality at 27, he had no one to tell because decades of small-t trauma had taught him that nothing he shared mattered. Coming out barely registered with his parents, which hurt more than rejection would have. He left South Africa for London, then chose Australia for safety and connection, but coming out did not end his disassociation. For 20 years after that move, Karl remained absent from his own life, stuck in corporate work that demanded he hide who he was.
At 48, after a court case forced him out of work, everything shifted. During workers compensation, Karl walked 15,000 steps a day, listened to the voices in his head, and discovered that being himself, colorful shirts and earrings included, attracted more clients and genuine connection than trying to fit into what recruiters wanted. He wrote a children's book about transformation that will reach 48,000 retailers. He completed his Reiki 2 certification and started volunteering through an Aboriginal mentorship program, holding space for isolated people. He walked away from his family in 2022 and does not feel much regret. Karl's clearest advice to younger people is simple: sit quietly for five minutes every morning. Understand that the thoughts in your mind are objects you get to move around. The silence is where answers live.
“I've had this lifelong dissociation. Not being able to remember my childhood too well. Trauma and dissociation clinics are telling us this is emblematic of a couple of decades of small t trauma.”
“I was expecting a fight. I was expecting something. But this was basically couldn't care whether you live or die. And that was more of the crushing thing than the lack of anything.”
“For so much of my life, that was ignored. You just don't anymore. The heart has got 40,000 neurocytes in it. Neurocytes store memory. If you want to know where your trauma is stored, it's there.”
The hero, today
Karl spent 20 years after coming out still disassociated and absent from his own life, which means coming out or moving countries does not guarantee you will suddenly feel at home in yourself. When Karl stopped trying to fit into what his recruiters wanted him to be and started wearing colorful shirts and earrings, he attracted more clients and better connections than when he was sterilised into a role. Karl realised he could not heal from his mother's narcissism by trying to repair the relationship at her terms, so he walked away from his whole family in 2022 and does not feel much about it now. Karl's best friend Ru told him that by doing the work of showing up for others through the Ankali program, he would find his own answers, and it turned out to be true. Karl's biggest piece of advice to younger people is to sit quietly for five minutes every morning and understand that the thoughts and feelings in your mind are objects in consciousness you get to move around.
Yes. Karl Germann is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Karl spent 20 years after coming out still disassociated and absent from his own life, which means coming out or moving countries does not guarantee you will suddenly feel at home in yourself.
When Karl stopped trying to fit into what his recruiters wanted him to be and started wearing colorful shirts and earrings, he attracted more clients and better connections than when he was sterilised into a role.
Karl realised he could not heal from his mother's narcissism by trying to repair the relationship at her terms, so he walked away from his whole family in 2022 and does not feel much about it now.
John Dwyer (Host) · 00:02
Hi folks, and when he— welcome to the— I'm going to start again. Hi folks, and welcome to the Kintsugi Heroes podcast and the Pride in Stories series. It's so good to have you all here. My guest today is a queer gentleman who's experienced the lows and the highs of discovering his sexual identity while navigating an unhealthy family working environment, ultimately making the challenging decision to move away from South Africa first to the UK, and then finally to here in Australia, where we're very pleased to have him. Since coming here, he's learned to embrace and even love his new identity, and he's discovered creativity and a real passion for healing and supporting others in the community. Carl Gemmert, it's, it's, you've got such a rich and diverse journey in this point in your life, and I'm genuinely excited to have you share your experiences with our audience today. So welcome to the Kintsugi Heroes podcast.
Guest · 00:57
Excellent. Thank you so much, John. Absolutely wonderful to be here and hearing some of the other stories is really brilliant to just add my voice to the chorus.
John Dwyer (Host) · 01:06
Well, I'm glad your voice is here. Now, what I'd like to do, I mean, as I said, you've got such an interesting and rich journey, but I really want to go and set the scene by going right back and having you talk about your life growing up in South Africa and, you know, the experience there and some of the challenges that you faced in that early stage of your life.
Guest · 01:27
Interesting. Yeah, thanks. And that's, that's where it all begins. I think one of the things that I've realized is I'm— I was 48 in April of this year, and around a year or two years ago, I realized that I've had this lifelong dissociation, just not like— and there's a few pointers towards that, such as not being able to remember my childhood too well, and a few other things that, you know, trauma and psychology and dissociation clinics are now telling us that this is emblematic of, I think, from my own experience, a couple of decades of that small t trauma. So I didn't experience any major traumatic episodes like a lot of people do in terms of isolated incidents of trauma or abuse or things that you can pin down. That's what happened to me. It was more from a guess, my waking up to dissociation is this, and it's really weird because you're one of the first voices that I'm elocuting this to in such a forum. So it's weird. I should have sat down and spoken to a tree about this. But yeah, that small t trauma started being laid down when I was 3, I guess. So mom and dad, South Africa. Well, my dad's from Austria. He's a 1960-something immigrant engineer to go build roads and dams in Africa.. And so he came and he met my mom, who's 1820 settler stock, so been in South Africa for close to 200 years, 7th generation South African, very proud of that. So good strong genes. Thanks for that, mom and dad, I guess. You know, you get the trauma, but then you get the health as well. So swings and roundabouts. And yeah, so they did really, really well. So we never had any lack for anything. I always had what I needed, all what I wanted. Nice things, good things, shiny things, big houses, good experiences, holidays to Europe, sometimes twice a year to go visit the family. Very cold and distant, very different to the warm, effusive South Africans on my mother's side. So I recall a lot of things and threads and tapestries, I guess. But yeah, never lacked for anything. Good education. But notice, from about 3 years old, I think when you're that old and you start noticing, I suppose you become that little human. And definitely very emotionally distant father who would turn his affection on and off with that same clinical switch that only an Austrian engineer would be able to do. And then mom, pretty much a malignant narcissist who was off on her own journey. Then 4 kids, very, very Austrian, very, very Austrian South African. So it was Heidi, Liesl, Karl, and Klaus. So Mom and Dad wanted all 4 kids all in one go. So Heidi was born in '68 and then Liesl in '70. And then I took a very long time to arrive, close to 8 years. So I scuppered their plans of having all 4 kids in one go because just for some reason, I'm child number 3 and it took me a very long time to decide to arrive on Earth, almost as if I was wondering, should I come?
More stories
This site is part of Kintsugi Heroes. Visit the main site for the full podcast. If any of these stories hit close to home, support is out there, you don't have to sit with it alone.
Read how we handle these stories ↗
Kintsugi Heroes · Registered Australian not-for-profit · kintsugiheroes.com.au ↗
Karl's best friend Ru told him that by doing the work of showing up for others through the Ankali program, he would find his own answers, and it turned out to be true.
This conversation includes growing up in a von trapp household, the disassociation that started at three, an ornament in the home, apartheid and the hyper-vigilance of difference, forced down the doctor track and the cost of not speaking up.
John Dwyer (Host) · 04:35
Really?
Guest · 04:36
Yeah. So then I was born in '78 and brother Klaus in '80. So the weirdest thing there, John, is we had same mom and dad, but then two family sets, if you will. So you had Heidi and Lisa, the girls close to each other in terms of distance of age, 18 months apart growing up, and then going from primary school, junior school to high school and then onwards. And then the boys grew up about 8 to 10 years later. So what that meant is at As we went into sort of high school, the girls had gone off to university and weren't in the house anymore, which is an interesting point because I was typically close to my sister Heidi, a psychologist as well. And one of the things that I've never understood is how could you be a psychologist and sat across from a lot of hurt, disturbed, traumatized gay boys and not once take that same internal lens of reflection and be able to look at your own brother? And then in 2022, Heidi wanted me to force-fix my relationship with my mom, which my mom started by being a malignant narcissist when I was 3. So I don't have the wherewithal or ability to do that. And I said, "Heids, I'm out." So I walked away from my family in 2022. Mom, sister Heidi, sister Liesel, brother Klaas. Dad had already died. And I just don't feel much about it. When Dad passed, I was like, "Oh yeah, cool." There was just no feeling. And I suppose that's endemic of the lack of feeling instilled in me and in terms of that long-term disassociation. And then you feel, "Well, your dad died. How can you not be sad?" And I was like, "Well, a lot of people actually aren't." So it buys into that. So then how do I become a better person and move past that negativity? And what's the lesson there? We can park that one for now. But yeah, growing up in South Africa was interesting. It was also during the times of apartheid. And I've always been a very curious observer of the universe. And I think, John, that came from that hypervigilance that happens to a lot of young queer kids because we are different. We perhaps know we're different. I didn't know I was different until I was 20-something because of this layers of disassociation and this privileged upbringing. But having access to all the materials, read all the National Geographics, all the information of the wider universe, but it seemed none that pertained to me as who I was for for the longest time. And so that was very, very interesting. And we'd have staff and we'd go down to one of the holiday houses on the beach. And I just recall that some of our African staff weren't allowed on the sand. And I just— no one could explain it to me so that I could understand because I was 3, 4, 5 years old. It was the mid-'80s, right in the swing of apartheid. And due to the whites only signs everywhere, African staff had to stay up on the grass in Bangor. They weren't allowed down on the beach. That was reserved. So I lived firsthand through quite a repressive apartheid state, how the world considers, how the world is engaging or entertaining Israel at this stage. I'm like, well, guys, we went through it all and we were told it's naughty and we stopped it. What's going on here? And the flip side of that is another thing is that I was cranky with the Australians when I came in. Beautiful country, lovely. But the thing is, we were excoriated as South Africans. Our apartheid is so bad and sanctions and all of these things. We can't play sports with you, even though we'd win because we'd thrash you at the rugby. But look how naughty you are, white South Africa. And then you get here and they don't tell you about the stolen generation 1, 2, and 3. Lack of giving the indigenous people who own the country a voice. And then extermination from the back of the horse with a pest species license. I'm like, well, now guys, you know, we were naughty, but we didn't quite do that. So it just shows, you know, everybody has their what they project and what they pitch. And then perhaps from the back, what really isn't that elegant or nice. And I suppose from my side, it's growing up with that lack of meaning, that lack of memory, not knowing who I am, being overdisciplined and being told I should be a doctor and then being forced to go through remedial maths and science because there's nothing remotely scientific or mathematical about my ability whatsoever. It's purely creative force that comes out, you know. And so they couldn't, they couldn't reconcile that. They didn't know. And I said when I was younger, I want to write books and all sorts of things, but nope, you'll be a doctor because this is what your white South African parents have decided for you, you know. So you have this preordained type thing. And then when you glide along the rails of being this fabulous little queerdo, but you don't know that until you're much older, then you're not fitting into their very narrow pigeonhole of what it should be. So then it becomes this dissonance growing up, which I only feel now, John, like I never— a lot, so much makes sense now. Now I can go, okay, cool. Now I can. And then it's the moving forward from there. And one of the things that I did do is when I started this journey quite some time ago, I've tried a lot of psychotherapists. The psychedelics work a little bit better, the ayahuasca far much better than any of the talk therapy ever did, but you didn't hear that from me. Talk therapy is a very brain modality type Whereas when you do any of the other modalities, much more heart-centered, it's much more human and soul-centered, which makes a huge difference for the era of getting shrunk in the head and talk therapy and all of that. I know I ramble, but one of the things is your heart has got 40,000 neurocytes in it. Scientists have recently discovered 40,000 neurocytes in the adult human heart, and neurocytes store memory. So if you want to know where your trauma is stored, it's there. So this, and this is my thing, is I tracked around in my head for the longest time because you're supposed to intelligently navigate out, and no one tells you that you can step into the lift lobby in your brain and press button for B and go down to, um, press button for H to go down to heart level. And from that space, you can sit back and, and, and take a look and assess. And I think that was one of the things that helped me a lot is not being able to have the space because every time anything happened, it was, I had to respond very quickly. I had to be very hypervigilant. You had to always be like, and it's very wearisome and it doesn't grant the individual the space to go, who are you? What are you? What do you need? Because for so much of my life, that was ignored. So you just don't anymore.
John Dwyer (Host) · 10:56
So very, very interesting. It's such a common thing I hear, Carl, is that so many of the folks that I've spoken to, have had that experience of living in a body that somebody else has designed or somebody else has defined.
Guest · 11:09
Yeah.
John Dwyer (Host) · 11:11
And that consistently is the, is the thing that it's interesting because as you said, it's not that, you know, I didn't get beaten up or I wasn't, you know, tied to a fence.
Guest · 11:22
Yeah.
John Dwyer (Host) · 11:23
But living in that environment where I couldn't actually be the person that I actually am is, is like a long, slow torture. That has a significant impact on people. And that's what I'm hearing you describe is that I just wasn't able to be the person I actually realized that I ultimately am. When you talk about your father, I can't help myself. I'm a musical theater person. I've been around that space for a long time. And all I can see is the Captain in Sound of Music who is that classic Austrian. So that's the first part, but also has that detachment from his children, the lack of authentic, you know, affection, authentic, vulnerable affection. And so I think— am I describing the relationship with your father that way?
Guest · 12:09
Pretty much so. Absolutely. I think you have called it. And in fact, you know, we were— The Sound of Music is very apt because we actually— my parents, as I say, they did really well. We bought a hotel in Zululand, a 55-bedroom hotel, and did really, really good business and trade then. They really did bring it up to quite a good level. And so that was in the Drakensberg, which is a sort of very mountainous region of South Africa, 3,500-meter-plus mountains, gets a bit of snow in winter. So of course, like African Alps, I guess you could say. So we had the little Gammon family. I mean, we were like the von Trapp family and even had a daughter called Heidi, you know, so Peter and Heidi in the mountains.
John Dwyer (Host) · 12:49
I heard that. I actually heard that. I was building that image in my head. All I could see was this classic von Trapp family. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest · 12:55
So that's what you have there. So that's— and as you can see, I don't intersect really well with the discipline that gave forth the last of the World Wars.
John Dwyer (Host) · 13:08
Well, interestingly, too, if you read the true story of Maria, the mother, she was a narcissist, too. So it's kind of interesting from that perspective.
Guest · 13:17
It's a bizarre case of life imitating art, I think, in this regard.
John Dwyer (Host) · 13:20
It is fascinating. Yeah, well, I think it's good for the listeners and the people listening to the podcast as well. If you've experienced that Sound of Music experience, I can picture the family being somewhat, somewhat that way. I would also say I've been to South Africa a couple of times myself and my first arrival in South Africa, I felt like I was flying into Sydney. It is quite beautiful. That whole area there is quite spectacular and it does have the Aussie feel to it in many ways. I think there's a lot of similarities there in South Africa and and New South Wales, effectively.
Guest · 13:54
Absolutely. Cape Town, I think if you go to Cape Town as a city in isolation, Sydney and San Francisco towards a degree, they're very, very— they're so common, they could be on the same timeline. Um, so there is that. And that's the thing is we're all humans of Earth. However, I think we're so far away from that collective unity, which is rather sad.
John Dwyer (Host) · 14:15
Yeah, I agree. I think that's very true. And that's why I think travel is one of the great antidotes to racism, is you get out there and actually experience the world and the connection's much better. When you talk about your mother being a narcissist, what, like, how did that manifest?
Guest · 14:31
Well, every day was different. And I think this plays into the hypervigilance that I would need to have is because not only was she a different person every day, but then there was this different emotional state every day. And it almost took me a few years to map most of these emotional state. So you never knew what you were going to get. So you always had to be the best version of yourself when you didn't know quite what that was, you know. And that means a lot of silence and then not making my needs known and not asking for help is another cluster. Let's put those as a cluster of problems that have kept me stuck as an adult is I figure this out myself. No one's going to come help me. I need to sort this out. I don't know how. Just going to shut down. Just going to be numb. Just going to be more dissociated. And then tomorrow's going to happen. And then what happens is you get this cluster cluster of days in the span of time. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, wow, look, it's the middle of June. Who knew? Yeah, I need to do some edits on my book or do something. So there's that trappedness. So yeah. And it was very much about her. I've got this. My bridge friends are coming. You make sure you do this. So you flesh and child of mine, go away until I pull you out, wave nicely, and then go back again. And don't tell me what you need until I'm done with what I need. And that was every day until I was like 16, maybe.
John Dwyer (Host) · 15:47
Right.
Guest · 15:48
Yeah.
John Dwyer (Host) · 15:48
So you're an ornament, basically.
Guest · 15:50
Basically, basically. Yeah. Yeah. A silent mute one, if you don't mind, please don't open your mouth.
John Dwyer (Host) · 15:55
Yeah. That's good for you. So it sounds like a lack of comfort in the family home. It sounds like that you were literally always on edge, whether it was dealing with your father or your mother. There was never a sense of I can be the vulnerable, real person that I am in that home environment.
Guest · 16:14
No, no, I could express needs. If I needed a new tennis racket, for example, we had a tennis court and I got the best tennis racket ever put in my hand ever just for asking it. So there was this, you get, you deserve and have the best. I'm like, well, this is great. There was just this hollowness. And then you think like, is it because I'm grateful? And then you just realize that it's just because the entire overlay, the entire architecture, the entire structure that has been laid down has not been informed with unconditional love. And it's like, well, yeah, that's so cool. And I kind of get jealous.
John Dwyer (Host) · 16:51
It is interesting. It's you hear this from parents too. Like I gave them everything. I did everything for them. I provided the best world. But the one thing they fail to do sometimes is to be human and to be, have that connection.
Guest · 17:03
And well, that's the thing. And John, sorry to cut you off. That's what caused a lot of the rage in the beginning. And as I said earlier, when I first started this whole journey, I decided to, I said to myself, myself, the one thing that you're not going to do is get angry about anything you uncover. And that was a big ask. And I did sit with myself for quite some time after that because I said to do that would just be to fuel into this rage that I have. I mean, I can Karen very, very well, as I think you could imagine, like because I've got the K-A-R in my name, Karen-ing for me. So call the manager, do this, like immediately it would go from 0 to 100 million without much, you know. So I realized that Okay, that was one of the first things that came out of the box of Pandora was this anger. So I'm like, we're going to enter everything with this grace and understanding. However, to do that means to sit with a lot of things for the longest time. And one of my really good friends said, oh, well, they didn't know what they were doing, which is one of these things that I personally want to— okay, I shouldn't say that because that's very ragey. I was like, they did know what they were doing because I told this woman countless times from a super young age, I want to write books. I want to do this. I want to— and I drew and I colored in all the time. Every time I put a pen in my hand, it would be about— I've eventually written The Land Where Unicorns Are Made. It's a book I wrote last year. So it took 40 years, 45 years to come weaseling out of the system. And now it is percolating slowly. And I love that. And so, yeah, it just wasn't allowed to become. So you get to like— and then I'm like 15, nearly. I'm like, Okay, I've got another 50. I can, like, there's no time limit. Like, I can do it, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Dwyer (Host) · 18:42
Well, at least it's here now. We'll talk about that before we're done here. Keen to do that. I want to now kind of listen to you in terms of your journey, realizing first of all, and then coming out as queer again in that, in the backdrop of what you've just described as the environment. You know, having the epiphany, having the realization that your sexuality is also maybe non-compliant or not aligned with expectations must have been a heck of a journey as well. And I'm curious about the mental processes you went through in preparing to go public in terms of your sexuality.
Guest · 19:22
Yeah, thanks. And that's also probably coached again in a little bit of that disassociation. And Um, I obviously was very different to a lot of people from when I was very young, because if you look at the pictures, it's always dress-ups, it's always putting something on me that's, that's different to normal clothes. Like, I don't present like this is just my normal wake up and roll out of bed clothes. Wait until I get normally dressed, you know. Take— I couldn't believe once you start wearing as much jewelry as this, how long it takes to take your jewelry off after you go clubbing and your fingers are all swollen. It's like, oh, just, you know, it's like Anyway, it is what it is. So everybody knew that I was different except for me. I didn't get the memo, I suppose. And it sounds so weird. How did you not know who you are or what you are? And I'm like, well, when you have that level of discomfort, of hypervigilance, of locking all of everything in a vault so that no one can ever see it, you hide yourself away from your own self in a way. And then re-emerging and having a peek at that and deciding that you don't like it or do like it is a bit of a challenge. Like, this is so me. And I've never given a continental what people think. Like, I go, I couldn't care. And people go, oh, I love your uniform. I love your costume. I love your outfit. And I used to correct them. I was like, these are just clothes. You should see what it looks like inside this walk-in wardrobe. It's just like a rainbow sharted. But that's just me. So when I was 27, I met this guy and I kind of knew in my late 20s that, alay, I like guys more, but I didn't tell anyone because I didn't have anyone to tell because every time I told my parents anything, it was shut down, disaffected, not important. So you do that from the age of 3 until the age of 23 and you realize that nothing you tell them, like nothing. And my sisters weren't there. And so basically, my brother's just a younger little straight boy and he's always stubbing his foot against something and always being a little attention terrorist. I met this guy and I decided to myself for some reason, who knows where, this is something I should unpack as well. I said to myself, myself, when you meet someone, then you can come out, then you can be safe because then you've got someone with you. You can never navigate this by yourself because that's not allowed. Not that there would be any kind of outcome or retribution or anything for doing that. It's just that that is not allowed. It's so not permitted that you can't even think about permitting it. It's just like these things, they collapse for you. They just do not. And so for me to now think this into existence and for now to think this beautiful human into existence that I deserve, it's a new thing, John, at the age of 48 and a bit. I'm like, people sort this out when they're like 15, 16, 12. Like, why? And then the pings onto the gets to the rage thing. And then I hit that finite cycle where I go, okay, you're not going to be angry about this. You're just gonna— and sometimes maybe I should be a little bit more angry because I'm denying my own rage. And I think I do need to break something about that. That's something we'll do downstream. And so I met this guy and I came out because I'd met this guy and nobody was surprised. Nobody even batted an eyelid. It was like I announced that the sky was as blue as blue could be on a summer's day. I was like, but this is a big deal. And like no one cared.
John Dwyer (Host) · 22:39
Even your parents?
Guest · 22:40
Even my parents. They were so emotionally disinvested in me.
John Dwyer (Host) · 22:49
Yep.
Guest · 22:49
As the disappointment I was for them over the course of years, that this was just another— and it's just Carl. It's just Carl.
John Dwyer (Host) · 22:55
So it was almost expected.
Guest · 22:56
I was expecting him to go, no, you can't be gay. That's terrible. All sorts of things. All sorts. Because that's how my mom, growing up, she always had snide little comments about people who were gay. Because in Cape Town in the '80s and '90s, it was— it was— you could tell. And she would have horrible, very, very slicing lateral comments to say about anybody, two men who live together or anything like that. It was so vile and so full of vitriol that I suppose in a way that I internalized them. It's like, I could never do that. I could never be that because of how it is construed to be. And so that was another layer bubbling in all of the things of my mind that actually has just now come to the surface. And that's a very interesting one to sit with.
John Dwyer (Host) · 23:39
Isn't that— I'm wondering, I'm curious, you know, was there almost disappointment about the lack of a reaction?
Guest · 23:46
There almost was. There almost was this disappointment. Like, I was like, well, guys, like, I was expecting a fight. I was expecting something. Just give me anything to work with. But this, like, basically couldn't care whether you live or die or gay or white or black or anything was more like it. And that was more of the crushing thing than the lack of of anything was just, yeah, yeah. And so then, and again, there was no, we knew Ricky Martin, of course, was gay, especially when he was doing beach yoga speedo work ages ago. Like you could tell, but I didn't have any mentors and there was no one growing up with me. We lost the entire cohort in the HIV crisis. So it was just totally alone and I didn't know where to find and look for people. And when I first discovered the joy of the male as the internet came about, I was like, wow, okay, cool. There's a whole resource out there, but it's not the one that you need and want. It's the one that awakens you. But then, you know, when that Pandora's box opens, a whole lot of other things open as well. So, and I've always been a very cautious, very restrained, guarded person, as I think that hypervigilance would press against. So for me to press against it and go, well, you're no longer there. What can I look at? What can I touch? What can I see? What can I feel? And that really helped a lot because becoming a fully functional sexual person in the framework of acceptance to do that with sometimes multiple and anonymous people in the youth of doing that finds all of a sudden the tribe of wow. Again, that doesn't come without its risks. You know, I did pick up a small injecting drug dependency during my time doing that and went through some of the trials and tribulations of of some strange people. There was never any hostility. There was never any deep ugliness. It was just I went and I explored in some places where perhaps exploring is left best for, well, for people who need to do it. But yeah, I don't think it's affected me. It's definitely opened my eyes to how much suffering there is out there, how much I'm not alone. And that whilst it Everybody says, oh, well, other people have gone through it as well. Then we're talking about, John, that trauma circle jerk, like who had it worse. And that's never a good thing. You know, it's just like, we had it. How do we unfuck ourselves, fix society, and move forward? And it's a lot more work than I thought it would be. Like I had this very naive, hey, let's go, Gayle Ford. And no, fuck you. Someone's going to like, no, fuck you in the face. And like, okay, cool. Well, fortunately, I come from a place of trauma where I've navigated this. So we shall see who's going to win.
John Dwyer (Host) · 26:23
Well, trauma is not a competition, is it? Um, and we all have our own, our own experience. There's no question about it.
Guest · 26:30
Yeah.
John Dwyer (Host) · 26:31
I'm curious, so you, you had a relationship and you came out at 27, and, and I understand that the relationship gave you the motivation, backbone, whatever it was, but it gave you that capability to come out. But what was the point prior to that where you realized that you were queer, or was there a point prior to that you knew that you were queer?
Guest · 26:54
I don't know if there was so much a point. Like, I didn't— it just didn't come flooding to me. I think that is just the way I've been since I was born. And when Gaga says born this way, I totally, you know, um, that's it. I don't feel there was— I mean, there were some stages of sexual awakening growing up in my late, late teens. Like, we're talking about 18, 19 onwards. And like, a lot of people have told me their initial stories, or they're coming out stories, where they are very very, very young. And I'm like, wow, that is, um, I don't know how I feel about that. But, you know, that's, and I just was a super late developer. So I kind of knew that it, I did have a fumble around when I was 19 with a 19-year-old girl. And I was like, there was evidence something was missing from that interaction. Okay. So, so I knew.
John Dwyer (Host) · 27:36
It wasn't the fulfillment you're looking for.
Guest · 27:38
It wasn't quite, no, no, no. So I get that the straight boys go off and get emotionally regulated and beat down by the girls. That's great. None of that for me. So just click through that. Not affected by it.
John Dwyer (Host) · 27:50
Yeah, no, I get it. So then you, you made the decision to leave South Africa and, and head towards the UK. What was the, what was the motivation and the thought process behind that move?
Guest · 28:03
I think for that, there was a little bit more. I mean, I am a European citizen. I always did want to go live and work overseas. And my parents had told me no, No, you're not. Because in terms of my very curated life of what I'm allowed and not allowed to do, going off to live and work overseas was forbidden for some reason. And again, they could never fully let me know why that was. It's neither here nor there. So eventually I did decide I am going, and that took me until I was 27. So you're in your advanced adulthood, so to speak. You know, you can make autonomy and make decisions from when you're 18 or 21, depending on where you're adultified. So for me to do this much later just shows that later stage of development that I think the hypervigilance, the trauma, the numbness, the dissociation of initial life did do. So, but yeah, I felt London, I had a few friends there, capital of the planet, so much cool things happening, the whole of Europe there. For a lot of reasons, London makes a lot of sense. And I did enjoy it. I worked in hospitality there. I was in the pre-opening of a billion-pound hotel, Hotel Café Royal. It was just incredible. Met all of the royalty, the rock stars, the Saudi royals. It was just fabulous. Very, very interesting insight into how the elites spend their money and how they pay and play at the top end of town. Not that I've ever been celebrity-focused, but meeting them, Madonna and all, like, oh yeah, they're much taller and much bigger than what the TV suggests, you know? And then you get on with it. And that was really good. But then I realized, you know, I was born in the global south, the southern hemisphere, and Europe, interesting little experiment, and America, you know, this was ages ago. I think this is my prescience or whatever. I was like, I think it's best that I go back down to the global south for when they start pressing buttons and bombs and all things start flying, which now you can see obviously is a little bit risky in terms of that. Australia is where my family was, which I was still chatting to them at the time. Didn't want to go back to South Africa. The opportunities out here are a little bit better. Couldn't speak Spanish or South American or Portuguese, so I decided— not against, you know, Brazil— so it made sense to come in. It's a beautiful country. There's a lot that's interesting, a lot that could change, but at the same time, what I do love is that it is Fortress Australia, and COVID did demonstrate that when the world goes to absolute shit, we can tighten down our borders. And we've only got 20 million people and more than enough land and space to feed everyone and ride out what's to come next in terms of that. Let's hope it doesn't happen. So yeah, I've traveled intercontinentally, like packed up sticks and done it pretty quickly. I've not thought about it lengthily. These are going along my normal life. Yeah, let's do that. And then I'll do that. But then finishing the final edits on my book, even though the lady's going, come on, Carl, where are you going? They were sending you one reminder. I'm like, that can wait, you know. So like the big stuff will happen like this and the more important stuff, I'm like, ah, got another 48 years. And I don't like that because the sand does start going through the hourglass.
John Dwyer (Host) · 31:12
Well, so that 27th year sounds like it was transformational on so many levels, right? So, uh, Carl is out in public now, in a relationship, picks up sticks, moves to a completely different country, reestablishes, resets lifestyle. I mean, that's a very transformational year for you in every way, shape, and fashion. But, um, but still not like from what I'm, I get from your intro still didn't get you to being fully, um, comfortable with who you are. Until literally the last 12 to 24 months. Yeah. So that's, that's interesting, right? I mean, I, you know, I think an outsider without talking to you would assume that moment in your 27th year was your awakening and your affirmation of who you are in your own skin. But what you're, what you're really saying is no, it wasn't. It was the beginning of that journey.
Guest · 32:17
Yeah.
John Dwyer (Host) · 32:17
And that journey has taken right up until you were 46.
Guest · 32:21
Very interesting. Yeah, because when you put it like that, it makes a lot of sense. And then there is— and then, then you're thinking, Jesus, that is a 20-year gap. That is too dead. Yes, that is a lot of time. And then that is my return point. It's like, yeah, I told you I was dissociated. I told you I wasn't there around. I told you I was absent. He's like, Jesus, Kyle, for 20 years? I'm like, that's what it feels like. And that's right. So, John, I think you're not the first person who's reminded me that I do need to time travel back to 27 and have a good look there because I think I can go back to 3 years old, as you've heard, and there's one or two spots in between, but I've not really fully mapped out the whole thing. And I think that's the life's work still to happen. So yeah, I think what's happened though recently is this space to become because now I understand that I have the time and the space to do that. And another thing that happened is I'm very blessed to not have to work at the moment. So I was working with a large pink media company in Sydney who does gay publication. And it was very interesting because I'd also done agency recruitment for 2 years. And the woman says to me, don't paint your nails, don't have an earring, don't wear these loud, colorful shirts. And I'd always wear these loud, colorful shirts. And when I went to places like the Sydney Chamber of Commerce and the top end of town, bankers and wankers and baker stick makers and all of the people who do the fancy shit in town, you know, like, and they'll go, oh my God, your earring is so cool. And this next thing. So I'd be able to connect and relate to people by being authentic. But this woman wanted me to not be authentic because she was scared of how people would approach me. And yet when I was allowed to be myself, I attracted more clients, had better offerings and had better dealings. Than when I was sterilized into a role. So I hated that. So I only did that for 2 years instead of 20. And then the Pink Media magazine, the guy engaged in some sexual harassment and bullying of a nature that was just unacceptable to me. So I left there, had a court case with regards to that, and then have been on workers' compensation for quite some time. And that really has been quite a blessing, John, because I don't think many people get a get out of jail free, get out of corporate free card because you have to be spending so much of your time wondering who you are, wondering what's for lunch, ironing your shirt, rocking up for someone else Monday to Friday, 9 to 5, have your existence extinctified out of you so that you can contribute to these people who don't even care whether you get hit by a bus and are replaceable tomorrow. So that was that whole journey. So I think very, very blessed and lucky to be able to have the time and space now and mindful of now you get to make it work with this is, this is what you're doing. This is on you.
John Dwyer (Host) · 35:18
So, so Carl, I think there's, there's 3, probably 3 really important messages in what you just said there. And I don't want to be lost for the audience. So one of them is that the, that milestone, in your case, coming out, doesn't necessarily give you a different life the next day. It's, it's a journey. And it may take time and the journey is worthwhile. But give yourself the time to go through the experience you need to have, to go through the journey you need to have. I think it's very important that people understand that. And again, I hear that quite a lot. Secondly, you're an incredibly far more powerful and palatable person when you are yourself. And I think you're a perfect representation of that is that when you present as Carl and, you know, in your true persona. And by the way, I love colorful shirts too. You can see my lovely low-profile vest there. I'm big on color. I think that's who we are. And there are other people who would rather go goth and everything's black and so forth. Well, that's fine. That's who they are too. But I think your self-confidence is different when you are the person that you really are. And I'm a big believer, as you are, in terms of energy. And I think when you are good in yourself, the people around you sense that and it changes fundamentally how they see you when you present with the confidence of being the person that you truly are. And I think the last one is that life's too short to live in somebody else's description of your life. You know, the reality is that we're only on this planet for a certain period of time. So for goodness sake, live your life.. And I think you're really doing that now, Carl.
Guest · 37:10
Thanks, John. Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate that. And that sort of recognition is something that I think the audience can look at in terms of their own lensing and in terms of their own spaces. It doesn't matter how difficult your day is. You can at least look in the mirror and go, it's a journey. Yeah, it's a terrible journey or it's a temporary journey or whatever the journey is at the same time. You know, there's a really good book that every single little gay boy should read, Velvet Rage. By Alan Dunn. Absolutely incredible. And one of the things that tripped me over about Velvet Rage was everything is perfectly as it should be. And I was like, no, it's okay. Well, if it's not perfectly as it should be, what power do I have to change it then? And this is where the question and the narrative becomes different. Because whilst I was growing up and I didn't have agency and I didn't have voice, or I did express it and was taken away. So for the longest time, you go into that of not doing anything. But now I'm wishing to become more vocal. And thank you for the opportunity. I hope anything that I've said does resonate because we live in this fog of existence, I suppose. And that was something we wanted to chat about, this really good website called Simply Out of the Fog. If you just Google Out of the Fog, have a look there. It's a website for personality disordered people and how we relate to them. Remove that aside, because everybody does have some kind of personality, not disorder, but we've all got our quirks. And Out of the Fog is an amazing one because it teaches you things like medium chill, which is when you have to be in, in, in some dramatic situation, like with my ex-sister Heidi and fixing my trauma, it's very easy to get entwangled because there's so much enmeshment. But then when you realize medium chill is just this concept where I give of myself very politely, very nice. I'm always effusive, always getting what— but I don't give anything. There's no drama. There's no kernels. There's nothing to loop you into my internal thing. So Medium Chill is a first step out of the FOG. If your listeners just have a look at one website, out of the FOG, and FOG stands for fear, obligation, and guilt. And so much of what we do, John, is based in fear, obligation, and guilt. I can't leave my job because I'm scared of earning. I can't leave my family. What happens with the kids? All sorts. So we We are so entrapped in this fully formed enmeshment of fear, obligation, and guilt. And the minute you stand above that and go, okay, what is this? You can see so much further out of the fog. And I think that website definitely was perhaps the one penny drop moment of like, oh, well, I get to change the dashboard of who I am just so that I can deal with people, navigate how to ride this bicycle so that I get to one stage and can have my hand off the bars and go, screw you, look at me, I'm doing it now, you know, type things. So Out of the Fog is a fabulous resource. And I'm hoping myself to move more into energy healing. I've done my Reiki 2 course, so I can start practicing on people. I've got another little website called carlfox.com. And it needs some love. It needs to have all of these ideas and all of this. A lot of my friends have said, Carl, you've got so much content. The delivery. We're still going over the delivery. So how do I take this and present it? And I'm so blessed. I've got Instagram, people will listen. There's attention economy, there's all sorts. So how do I take this and distill it into things that people can go, yes, this is me, this helps me, this is what I want? Because that's where I want to go is how we assist, help, and elevate each other.
John Dwyer (Host) · 40:41
I love that. That's awesome. And we will share both outofthefog.website, which is the URL for that, as well as your two sites when we release this. This podcast episode. Um, I also know from reading your website that, uh, you climbed Kilimanjaro in 1997. I had that experience in 2013. Wow.
Guest · 41:01
Yeah.
John Dwyer (Host) · 41:02
Um, but I think for everybody, climbing that mountain is a unique experience. Can you share what your experience climbing Kili was?
Guest · 41:09
Uh, incredible experience. Yeah, because in 1997, I would have been 19, so, so teenagers, still super young. And of course, uh, it's It's just incredible. I love travel. I've been very blessed to be able to go to so many different countries, but Kili is something quite special. As you fly in to the Kilimanjaro International Airport, it's just this little strip. There's some huts there. The Africans watch planes coming and going. It's just really romantic East Africa. It's really stunning. You fly around and you see Kili and you get a sense of it from the air that this thing is very big. It is not something to be trifled with and it's not an afternoon park walk. This is huge. There's ravines, there's all sorts of— oh, okay. But you know, you get there, you get the African people and they carry 80 kilograms on their back with no shoes climbing all the way up. So they have nothing, but they're doing everything with it, which is the way with Africa. And you're just so inspired. And you do, you have to slog all the way up and it's raining because it's jungle at the bottom and there's rainforest. And then you're getting up to the Shira Plateau and it changes. And very slowly you're going through this transmogrifying journey of remaining the same person, but the landscape is moving around you. And the analogy is like, yeah, okay, cool, I can see how life is the same. And then once you get to a certain part, you can actually see the mountain you're climbing. Because when you're at the bottom on the lower slopes, there's jungle everywhere, there's cloud everywhere, and there's no mountain to be seen. But you know it's somewhere up there. So you're just gently going up, but then you get to a certain part and you're like, okay, now I can see. And like Here comes the real work. And it's cold and the vegetation changes. And I think the last slog is where you have to wake up at quarter to dawn and it's super cold and the stars and the moon are just embedded in this inky blackness like you've never seen before. And then there's this volcanic scree with tiny little rocks. You know it, John, you've walked up there, it's so fun. And every time you put a boot down, you slide 2 steps back. So you take those 1.5 long steps and you slide back and it just carries on like that for the longest time. But eventually dawn comes and you just lie up there like a stunned mullet and the Africans are staring at you with these beautiful beaming smiles like, what took you so long type thing, you know, like we're waiting for you, just come and enjoy the view.
John Dwyer (Host) · 43:21
There are so many metaphors for life on that mountain. It is remarkable. I love the way you've described it. It's interesting. I did the 7-day Lamotso route and every day you climb up to an altitude, then you come down a little bit, then you climb up and you come down again.
Guest · 43:36
Yep, yep, yep.
John Dwyer (Host) · 43:37
And then on, on day 4, you go to the tower, and that's where people who are going to get altitude sickness get it, and I did.
Guest · 43:43
Okay.
John Dwyer (Host) · 43:44
And you start taking your Diamox, which is interesting. Um, but that last— when you do the ascent, on the ascent day, you leave the camp, um, at about midnight.
Guest · 43:57
Yeah.
John Dwyer (Host) · 43:57
And you climb to Stella, and you get to Stella about 6:00 AM typically, as the sun is just just rising. And then there's this, I don't know, what is it, 200-meter walk from Stella to Yahu, which is the top point. And it's literally, you take 10 steps and you stop and pant and breathe. And it's like being drunk. I know there were things that we planned to do on the summit that we never did because we were so out of our heads with the altitude. It's insane. But I, um, I gotta say, I recommend Kili to everybody. You should go to Kili. It's a life-changing experience and it's beautiful.
Guest · 44:32
Absolutely, it truly is something. I mean, you're at 5,800-something, you're just basically under 6,000 meters straight up, you know. It is, yeah, it is, it is huge. I definitely— something that I have thought of doing again. Don't know if I should really put that out into the universe. Let's, let's maybe do a quest in a couple of years' time and return to Kili, John. How about that?
John Dwyer (Host) · 44:52
I'll stick to these lovely mountains down here in Tassie.
Guest · 44:55
You'll stick to us. Yeah, it's probably a once in a life— having said that, I mean, we did, um, Mount Kenya the next year and what's that, Mount Meru the year after that. So those are two other ones which are very interesting. But yeah, Kili, definitely do it just for the experience and the views.
John Dwyer (Host) · 45:13
Yeah. And you are right. The Sherpas are incredible. I can remember climbing the Barranco Wall and they were scooting past us with all the backpacks and massive tents and things on their shoulders. They're staggering people and beautiful too, by the way.
Guest · 45:25
Beautiful people cooking amazing food and just the strength and the bond. And I think that's something that, you know, modern society. This is what I don't like about— I can see the house next door and the house next door. We don't know who these people are, you know, whereas I do think that we need to tribe a lot more than we're tribing and try a hell of a lot more to do that. Because what's lovely about Port Macquarie is it's very friendly. It's definitely not Sydney. When I came the first time, I came here, I said to my mate, what does everyone want? Everyone's speaking to me. Everyone's saying like, hi mate, how are you doing? What's it like? I didn't realize that it's authentic human gorgeous, juicy regional Australia connection, which is so unlike the Sydney sizzle of— in Sydney they snarl at you, in the country they smile at you, and that makes a big difference.
John Dwyer (Host) · 46:08
It's different, isn't it? I found the same moving here to Tassie. It's different.
Guest · 46:12
Yeah, just beautiful.
John Dwyer (Host) · 46:14
So I wanna shift to your creative stuff. So now, you know, we've explored your journey and it's been a tremendous journey. Thank you so much for sharing. But now, Carl, you know, the fully embraced individual you are, you're really shifting your focus around the creative side. So I know that you're writing a children's book.
Guest · 46:35
Yeah. Yes.
John Dwyer (Host) · 46:36
And you've created a tarot card deck as well. So I'm curious to hear about both of those.
Guest · 46:40
There's this— I don't know where the tarot card deck thing is at the moment. So what I'm doing is I'm hand drawing the tarot cards because that's the way I want to learn. I want to learn the tarot deck and learning from words doesn't quite help me. And I've got in my room, which is something that I've had since I was very, very young, is a big box of manuscripts of different things. And just for example, my diary will look like this. There's lots of writings and there's arcane things and there's bits of fire and then there's lots of handwritten stuff coming all over the place. And so I will channel a lot of creative stuff and a lot of ideas. I will get at least 12 brilliant, juicy ideas before I've had my coffee every morning. So ideas are not the problem. It's again, the content is way too much there. It's about the delivery. How do we deliver this to a society of people who need a gentle guidance? You know, not to say that I've got the way or whatever. It's just like I realize that people are all looking in different ways and all are distracted and dissociated in some way, shape, or form. So to get that commonality, is it so? Last year during winter when I was in the middle of my workers' compensation, I just could not be not doing anything. I walk a lot and I was doing 15,000 to 20,000 steps a day, just walking, just walking, just walking. And that helped me a lot as well. And not with my speakers on my head listening to techno this time, listening to the emergent voices in my head. And I think that's probably more horrifying than some of the worst techno out there. But then I got the idea for Unicorn's Land, where unicorns are made. Where are they made? We don't know. We have unicorns. We don't know what their creation myth is. We don't know how they arrived. How did they— did they sink on the ark? So anyway, it's a little kid's book called The Land Where Unicorns Are Made. And you can go and go and go again. And then one day you go and never come back. And so you follow this purple path and you get to this field of flowers and the flowers have tiny little horns, not thorns, because they're flowery corn. So it's a little flower with a unicorn horn. Too easy. And then you go through this. If your heart is strong and true and you do all the right things and you be a good kid and all of these things. So we have little kids, you become a squirrelicorn, a beetlicorn, a foxycorn, a cowicorn, a whalicorn. And what's next in the magical quest? A dinosauricorn. So, and then of course, the final form happens, which is the unicorn. So it's this transmogrative, transformative tale, I suppose, of where we get these curious little creatures from. And it just, it made a lot of sense. And it's during the second edit, I need to approve some illustrations and it's going to be syndicated to 48,000 retailers, print on demand, Amazon, Barnes Noble. And I'm like, I did a thing that I couldn't do.
John Dwyer (Host) · 49:20
That's amazing. I love that.
Guest · 49:22
Thank you.
John Dwyer (Host) · 49:22
And it sounds great. It sounds like an awesome story. I can't wait to take a look.
Guest · 49:25
Yeah. Thank you for that. Thank you. And that's open. That's been the first one. Now the floodgates have opened. There's a sea monster. Which is particularly sea-monstery. And I was never allowed to draw or illustrate, but I just had to start writing. And I drew the sea monster and I put the pen down. I'm like, this thing is becoming like too much. So I'm loving that. And a lot of other little writings and collected essays and more things like that. So to honor that as a co-creator for what's inside the memory and inside these banks and what I hope to bring forth, thank you, John, for seeing that. I think that's something I hope to achieve a little bit better than I have in the past.
John Dwyer (Host) · 50:02
I think it's fantastic. Now, I also mentioned at the opening that you do have a passion for healing and a passion for supporting the community. And I know that you've completed your Reiki 2 studies.
Guest · 50:14
Yep.
John Dwyer (Host) · 50:15
And you're also currently going through your Diploma of Community Support.
Guest · 50:18
That's correct. Yep.
John Dwyer (Host) · 50:21
I got to say, with your lived experiences, Carl, you know, along with those qualifications, I think you'll be a powerful advocate and a support for a lot of people in the community. So it's fantastic.
Guest · 50:32
Excellent. And thank you for that.
John Dwyer (Host) · 50:33
I do.
Guest · 50:34
I feel once, once, and this was something a while ago, actually, when I woke up quite some time ago to one of my very, well, my best friend who's helped me so much beyond is like, if it wasn't for Roo, my friends know who Roo is. He knows who he is. He's just a legend and a god of a person who's helped me tremendously. And I said to him, what can I do to give back? And he said, try the Ankali program. So Ankali is an Aboriginal word for friend. It's based in Sydney, it's through the Albion Centre. And what you do is you basically just give some of your time to people who are socially or emotionally distanced due to their age and HIV status. So these are people who survived the pandemic. I had one dude, a 60-year-old guy, Michael, very calm, very— but just no connection whatsoever to the outside world. So all he wanted to do was just sit and have coffee and watch passersby for an hour every week. And I just couldn't believe that it was the most simplest of things. And even to Ru, I said, how can I hold space for this person? I don't even know who I am. And he says, by the doing of the journey, do you get the answer? And I was like, okay, I trust you. And I did. And then I said to the Ankali people, I've got all the time in the world. I want a second Ankali. So then I got Tilly, who was very different to Michael. She's got low-grade schizophrenia, bipolar personality disorder, and all over the place. And I was like, I was able to match her needs, you know, and one of my psychologists said, yeah, Carl, you've got this universal connector vibe. You can be adaptogenic, you can change according to the needs of people around you. And I was like, well, that's a superpower that not a lot of other people have. So the journey became the identifying things. So yeah, I just recently did my Reiki 2, which means I can start practicing on people. So I've got my Reiki the lightunitedreiki.com, which I need to spend a bit more time on so I can get bookings and monetize that. And then also doing a community diploma of community support so I can assist in community people who need the help that, you know, they're slipping through the gaps as well. And just being that person present and then realizing that I can monetize that, you know, I can make money off of my creative outlet. I can do that. I can I want to go, I went to the Lauriston markets yesterday and they've got such a gap in terms of one or two products that the community I think should have. So I'm going to explore that. I'm going to buy the bottles. I'm going to do the things. I'm going to see if it works because I get to be able to do that now. And that's a very freeing thing to be able to make mistakes now when I wasn't even allowed to tread one foot out of. So it's cool. And then you realize, yeah, I can fuck up if I want. You know what, I don't care.
John Dwyer (Host) · 53:08
I can see your clarity of purpose really, you know, distilling now, and I think that's fantastic. Thanks. There's a point that you made just now that I want to double down on. I'm actually doing some research right now in preparation for a podcast I'm working on on my side. Isolation is one of the most significant issues we have in this country, particularly with our aging population. Yeah, yeah. And it's a major contributor to depression. It's a major factor in suicides or suicide attempts as well. Yeah, and it is remarkable the difference that every one of us can make by just engaging with people. And it can be as simple as saying hello to somebody in the supermarket can fundamentally change their day. So I love what you're doing in terms of the work there. There's a program here in Tasmania called MATES, which I'm looking at as well, where you, again, you go and have coffee with somebody on a regular basis and just spend time talking and listening and chatting about the weather or whatever happens to be. But if you have opportunities to engage with people and again, just even to ask how they are or say hello, never miss those opportunities. It can be life-changing for people just to be connected.
Guest · 54:20
I think that's so important, John. And we do live like despite the— I've lived through the rise of social media and the biggest disconnect in human history whereby we've got this industrial-grade military death. I call my phone the death rectangle. Whenever you put my phone on, it says death rectangle. I put it down immediately going, no, that's not the way. But very interesting in terms of connecting with people is something I want to do more of. So I just put a message up on Facebook here, for example, going, I've been staying with my friend for a while looking for my own room. And I was just blown away at how the community sits. I got offers to go stay on someone's boat. So I start their boat. I've got offers to go stay on someone's farm and look after their goats. Because all of a sudden the community has come out in force. Whereas you do that in Sydney and people look at you like you've crawled out of cheese. There's just no community. And one of these communities connected me to this globally connected network of men called WNOW, When No One's Watching. And they meet at 6 o'clock on a Wednesday morning. All these men globally do that. And I'm a huge fan of, wow, I've reached out to the community and this has come. So now I'm going to go explore that and see what happens there. Maybe the next thing unfolds. Very gamified type thing where I'm like Super Mario now, navigating life and see if I can collect something or need something or connect people. But that's what it's about. And I think living in Stanmore and Newtown of the inner west, I enjoyed because you can do smile harvesting. So I'd walk up and down the street on a Saturday and smile at people or really give them this. And some people would smile back just out of force, just because they're so taken aback that that's what they would do. But other people look at you like How dare you smile at me? Like, what is wrong with you? Did you not get the brief that you're supposed to smile? How dare you? And I'm just like, but whereas you come to Port Macquarie and you just— it takes me a while to walk to the beach because by the time you stopped and said hello to everyone and their dog, it's like half the day's gone. That's the way it should be.
John Dwyer (Host) · 56:13
I love smile harvesting. Yeah, but I've got to tell you, I love winning people over. I do the same thing.
Guest · 56:20
Good.
John Dwyer (Host) · 56:20
And I've definitely had people that I saw on a regular basis on the bus or whatever. Who wouldn't smile back initially. And then over a period of months, I wore them down to the extent that they would smile back. And that's the big win. That's like a big fish on the line, right? I love that.
Guest · 56:36
That's just so amazing. I'm so glad we're very aligned with that. And it is a sad indictment of modern humans that even of the same humans that intersect on the same path with you and can see that you're not a threat on the same bus take months to return that smile. It just shows you, kind sir, what work you and I and the others have to do to get us back to the smiling tribe of gorgeous connected humans, which we did for 2 million years until modern society came.
John Dwyer (Host) · 57:03
It's not hard. It's not hard. If we all did it every day, it's not hard. We'd wear people down. Challenge accepted.
Guest · 57:08
Challenge accepted. That audience, please smile at everyone in a nice organic way. And it will be terrible at first. You're going to think you're an idiot. Everybody else is going to, but we need this more now than ever.
John Dwyer (Host) · 57:20
There's your challenge. All right, so just to close us out, Carl, um, you again, you've had such a rich experience and, um, of good and bad, um, and you're in such a great place today. Um, if, if there's somebody who's listening, watching this podcast right now, um, who's is back in your, you know, late 25, 26 timeframe of your life. What are you telling them? What's the guidance you would give them today?
Guest · 57:51
Yeah, that's a very, very good one. Very profound is I think to sit quietly because we do actually have the answers. And when you're younger, I suppose it's difficult to do that, to really just sit and spend at least 5 minutes every day just meditating without your device. When you wake up in the morning, arrive into the room, arrive back into your life. Because for so long, I made the mistake of being so dreadfully disassociated that I just wasn't me for the longest time. So just to be me and just be like, look, I've got my fingers back, I've got my mind back, I'm on my bed, I'm here. Okay, 5 minutes. What's the most important thing? Or what am I feeling right now? Without getting twisted into the emotions. And I think to understand. The biggest thing I think I would ask anybody young to understand is these thoughts that you have, or the lack of thoughts, or anything in your mind are simply objects in consciousness. And like the furniture in your room, you get to move these objects in consciousness around. So play with that. That's pretty freaky.
John Dwyer (Host) · 58:57
I love that. No, I think that's really great guidance. And that those moments of those moments of somewhat selfish solidarity with yourself are phenomenal. So I think that's tremendous advice.
Guest · 59:15
Don't be scared of the quiet. It's terrifying, but that's where the answers are.
John Dwyer (Host) · 59:21
Yeah, that's where you get clarity. I love that. That's great. Well, Carl, it's been an absolute pleasure to spend some time with you. I really appreciate the transparency of what you've shared today. I think for anybody listening, there's some takeaways, there's some gems in there. I'm excited about the stuff that you're doing. I'm going to be stalking you to see how it all plays out.
Guest · 59:42
Yes, I get it going then. Now that I've got accountability partners, I better do it.
John Dwyer (Host) · 59:48
There you go. There you go. That's what I'll be. I'll be your accountability partner for sure.
Guest · 59:52
Thanks, John. Thank you so much for your time, for what you're doing for the community and for for all the listeners. I hope it's been entertaining, educational, or whatever the takeaway is.
John Dwyer (Host) · 1:00:02
Awesome. And for those that are listening, thanks for joining Kintsugi Heroes. It's always great to have you on, on the, the podcast listening in. I'd love to have your feedback as well. Wherever you are, hope you're living your best life, and we'll see you in a following episode.
You don't have to be in crisis to call.
Subscribe
Spotify
Apple