Jetha Devapura
The Intersection of Pain and Power: How OCD Led Jetha Devapura to Purpose
An engineer who hid OCD for 25 years discovers that self-worth, not mental health labels, is what keeps people from drowning.
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Kintsugi Studio
Jetha Devapura
An engineer who hid OCD for 25 years discovers that self-worth, not mental health labels, is what keeps people from drowning.
Hear this story
Jetha Devapura spent 25 years hiding obsessive compulsive disorder while climbing the corporate ladder as an engineer. He describes OCD as a ritualistic addiction, where anxiety drags you to the next compulsive check, over and over. The real breaking point came not from the diagnosis itself, but from isolation. Working overseas, cut off from family and friends, something gave way. Yet Jetha had been shaped by something stronger: his mother's solo arrival in Australia to set up a home, jobs, and schools for her family. His father's quiet compassion. A moment at age 11 when two Australian kids asked where he parked his elephant, and he answered back without flinching. These things built something in him.
Then he walked into a cancer hospital in Colombo and saw mothers and children sleeping on floors between chemotherapy sessions. He couldn't walk away. What started as a simple fundraiser for anti-nausea medication became the CCC House, a 194-bed transit home named after the three virtues that saved him: courage, compassion, commitment. He found a fridge magnet with the word "courage" on it and built a life around three C's, understanding them not as therapy but as antidotes. He turned his Prozac into purpose by filling his own self-worth bucket indirectly, helping others.
At 56, the same age his father was when migrating to Australia, Jetha quit his job to start over. He launched Let's Talk, a program that does not focus on mental health labels but on being seen, heard, and valued. The work is about building self-worth deep enough that when hard times hit, you don't bottom out. Pain is normal and natural. The point is not to escape it, but to understand your own power within it.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses suicide & self-harm prevention, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • Lifeline (24/7 crisis support): 13 11 14 · lifeline.org.au
“I think we more have a self-worth crisis. Not because we are bad people, it's because there's so much noise in the environment.”
“Purpose stems from the intersection of pain and power. So much to learn from pain and so much to reflect and understand your own power.”
“I always explain OCD as like being a drug addict. The intensity of the anxiety and the pain is so great that it takes you by the scruff of the neck and drags you for your next hit.”
The hero, today
Pain is natural and normal, and the point is not to get rid of it but to understand your own power within it. OCD feels like a ritualistic addiction where anxiety drags you to the next check, and courage means staying still with that anxiety instead of feeding the ritual. Self-worth is not the same as self-esteem, which bounces on validation from others; it's a depth you build internally so that when hard times hit, you don't bottom out. The three Cs, courage to be seen, compassion to hear yourself, commitment to value others, work as a cycle where each one makes the others easier. Building self-worth in schools and workplaces means leaders must model authenticity and vulnerability first, so people feel safe to show up as themselves. Connection is a fundamental human need as real as food and shelter, and it requires time to build with yourself, with others face to face, and spiritually.
Yes. Jetha Devapura is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Pain is natural and normal, and the point is not to get rid of it but to understand your own power within it.
OCD feels like a ritualistic addiction where anxiety drags you to the next check, and courage means staying still with that anxiety instead of feeding the ritual.
Self-worth is not the same as self-esteem, which bounces on validation from others; it's a depth you build internally so that when hard times hit, you don't bottom out.
The three Cs, courage to be seen, compassion to hear yourself, commitment to value others, work as a cycle where each one makes the others easier.
John Milham (Host) · 00:00
Kintsugi Heroes acknowledges funding and was made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at cbf.org.au.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 00:15
Welcome back to Kintsugi Heroes, helping people tell the stories they need to share so you can find the stories that you need to hear.
John Milham (Host) · 00:25
In this episode, John had a chat with the amazing Jayther Devapura. Jayther's journey has been one of real grit and heart. He's faced down obsessive compulsive disorder, which he likens to a ritualistic addiction, and discovered a path of courage, compassion, and commitment. Starting over at 56, Jayther was inspired by his parents' bravery and set out to help others through incredible projects like the CCC House in Sri Lanka and the Let's Talk program in Australia. We'll hear how he turned his struggles into a mission to boost mental health and build self-worth.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 01:00
Enjoy this one with Jaytha Devapura. So, uh, listeners, Kintsugi Heroes fans, welcome back to another podcast episode, Kintsugi Heroes Stories That Matter. And it's another amazing privilege today to talk to a man who has already given me a dose of energy this morning. He's an energetic being, Jaytha Devapura. Jaythar, thank you so much for joining me on Kintsugi Heroes Stories That Matter today. You have an incredible list of accomplishments. You have a wonderful background in both, you know, taking risks and moving from one country, Sri Lanka to Australia, setting yourself up in business and of course then giving back. But rather than me go on, I'd love to find out about how you see yourself, what's on your business card and what are you proudest of?
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This conversation includes purpose lives at the intersection of pain and power, ocd showed up during corporate life, hidden and ashamed, the gun was loaded, but the trigger was isolation, a sri lankan kid answers back to bullies and finds his voice, his mother's courage became a blueprint for his own and environment changed everything; he topped a class he thought he couldn't pass.
John Milham (Host) · 01:59
On the business card, uh, probably the least thing on my mind at the moment in terms of on my business card, but on my vision for the future for myself is a journey where I can share my love. I can share my learning and learn, you know, learn from people like yourself and the people that surround me. Really to let go, you know, to, to try and reduce the, the noise.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 02:31
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 02:32
And that's, I think, where I feel like the most meaning is going to happen in my life and how I can contribute into that, into that equation.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 02:44
I love that, mate. So your business card contains your vision. It's like your vision and your mission, right? It's almost like you're leaving that vision and mission. Yeah. That's something in the background we talk about when people, you know, when we want to impress someone, but this, that's actually how you define yourself.
John Milham (Host) · 03:01
Yeah, I think, look, I think so. But I think, um, before you sort of embark on that, I call it the infinite game because so often, um, we are sort of forced into this finite game of, oh, what do I need to do today? What do I need to do next week and next month? And what do I need to achieve? My targets, my KPIs. What's my expectations? And they're fine and they're needed to live and to earn. But I think we shouldn't also forget the infinite, you know, the journey that we are on and how much we can contribute and learn from that. So I, I think you need to do that in parallel. But the, the starting point is important. For me, the starting point is the purpose. What, why? You know, I guess the story I'm going to say really starts from purpose, you know, and a lot of people say, let's just, you know, why don't you figure out your purpose? You know, it's not something, you know, you, you try to figure out. It's something that you learn in the, in the journey of life, I guess. And I was talking to you earlier before, um, and I always think one's purpose for me anyway. Stems from the intersection of pain and power.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 04:20
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 04:20
The intersection of pain and power. So much to learn from pain and so much to reflect and understand your own power.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 04:28
Ah, I love that idea. Uh, the intersection of pain and power. Where did your pain come from?
John Milham (Host) · 04:35
And pain's still there, John, and the pain will continue. Um, pain is life, you know, suffering is life. But we don't dwell on that. We look at life from a positive angle, from a different perspective as well. But to understand that pain is normal, is natural, is really important and not pretend that we need to get rid of pain all the time. The pain that started on my journey, you know, at the time it was painful, but now I look back and go, thank you so much. You know, thank you so much, pain. Was my journey, I guess, battling OCD, a mental illness, anxiety disorder, which I was diagnosed, I would say, 25 years ago, but I think it's a bit longer. And at that time, growing up when mental health wasn't the most popular subject like it is today, we just kept it quiet. We kept it, you know, swept under the carpet, so to speak. And I was ashamed. I was anxious and I suffered in silence. So, and now here I am, you know, 25, 30 years later talking about it like, uh, it's normal.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 05:48
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 05:49
You know, uh, like here, here, here it is. Here's my, you can call, call it vulnerability, but I always try to think about as being authentic. Yeah. Being authentic to yourself.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 06:00
Absolutely. So of course, um, you're, you came from Sri Lanka to Australia. Do you think your, you know, when you were young, you know, your OCD was around and, but it was, you know, difficult to identify or did it come on and you suddenly realized that there was something different about you?
John Milham (Host) · 06:22
You can only, you can only reflect back, isn't it? Like, you know, when you're going through that journey and until something happens to you, you just don't know. And maybe you're right. Maybe, uh, I think I had very perfection tendencies, you know, I had to get it right. So the tendencies are there. The DNA was set, you know, the, you know, the, the, the, the gun was loaded, but the environment caused it to cause the trigger. So that environment, I mean, I said gun was loaded, you know, my personality was probably more towards that being perfect, uh, achieving perfection. Which I will talk about later, which doesn't exist. So the gun was loaded. I think the trigger was when I was pursuing my corporate career up the ladder, so to speak, and I was isolated. I was working as an expat. So I've got an engineering background and I was working as an expat overseas and the isolation was, you know, the environment that really broke me down, you know, missing my family, my friends. And one day, just like, you know, you just, uh, got a hemi, you know, running, you know, to that goal, and you'll go, oh, you know, I've got that hemi, and just falling down. That sort of hit me like that. And all of a sudden, you know, uh, things were a little darker, a little bit more anxious, and it stuck around. It didn't go away. Nothing wrong with being anxious, but when things stick around, there's something, uh, miss.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 07:57
Well, that's right. We define sort of mental challenges through the amount of impact they have on our lives, right? And of course, you mentioned engineering. You had chosen engineering as a path from childhood, right? So as I think in the past I've seen you say, You had a, as a Sri Lankan fellow, you had 3 choices, doctor, lawyer, or engineer.
John Milham (Host) · 08:21
Yeah. I jokingly say, you know, you either had to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or a loser. I think accountant is in that equation.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 08:31
All right.
John Milham (Host) · 08:32
Yeah. Yeah.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 08:33
Just to make sure the accountants feel, you know, someone's got to take care of all that.
John Milham (Host) · 08:37
Yeah.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 08:37
Somebody's got to do the books, keep us all, you know, How much did your early days, because you then moved and shifted around as a profession around Asia and the world, how much did your Sri Lankan culture influence you in your early childhood?
John Milham (Host) · 08:57
Look, I remember I tell a story because I work in schools now. My career has, I've restarted my career.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 09:07
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 09:07
At a young age of 56. I think early on, I remember coming from Sri Lanka, I went straight to year 7 in a high school and 2 Aussie kids came up to me and say, hey, where'd you park your elephant? And, you know, like, you know, you look back and you laugh at that. And I remember feeling like And actually the thing that came out of my mouth without even a slight inch of a doubt was, same place to your park, your kangaroo, right? With a broad Sri Lankan accent, you know, with a head nod. I remember a teacher said, oh, you, you know, you say yes and no at the same way, kind of, you know, head nod. And I can reflect back and laugh at it, but I always look at that moment and I think, you know, what if I wasn't that, you know, justice-oriented, you know, strong-minded kid? What if I was this little timid Sri Lankan boy, uh, that felt really ashamed and really, uh, sad about their identity, you know, going home and say, well, you know, I come from this, I come from this land with elephants. That's pretty, pretty horrible, you know. And, and sort of parking my identity to a side and, you know, trying to recreate that. Luckily for me, didn't— that didn't happen. It just, you know, egged me on to be stronger and more vocal. And I think that is probably a really good beginning of, you know, one point, I guess, where that's— that ability to, or the need to voice my thoughts and opinions has come far, far from that point on. Yeah.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 10:59
It's interesting, uh, you know, that those experiences all add up and define, you know, how we later deal with life. How, um, did, was it your family? Was it your culture? Was it, you know, those, uh, challenging experiences of, of moving into a different environment in Tully? Was it, was that something that was either a, was a, that a catalyst for later challenges?
John Milham (Host) · 11:22
I come from two best parents in the whole world, my mom and dad. My dad passed away 8 years ago. He was 94. My mom passed away 2 years ago. She was 94. They lived amazing life. My dad was a Sinhalese background. So from Sri Lanka, my mom was a mix of Sinhalese, Irish, English. I think there's a little bit of Indian. Uh, so we, we have a beautiful diverse, um, gene pool. So I'm, I always look back and say, thank you so much to all my ancestors going back to wherever they came from. Yeah. Right. For, for, you know, for giving me this, this opportunity to do what I do. So first of all, I'm grateful for the past and the present was the My parents were very courageous and very compassionate. I always say Mum was very courageous. She single-handedly came to Australia in, I think it was about 3 months before we came in, in 1978. Wow. As she's a nurse, she got a job at the Royal Melbourne Hospital. She then organized our schools. She organized a place for us to live, even organized a job for Dad. And then we just sort of came in on the plane, you know, and we had a place to live. We had schools to go to and a job too for Dad. And they were just a really simple, down-to-earth family. We hardly went to restaurants, you know, we hardly went on holidays. We didn't spend much money. We paid off our little flat very quickly. Yeah, Mum and Dad did. Yeah, there was no extravagance. In our life. It was all simplicity. We didn't know any better. And I think that background, I wish I can give that simplicity to my kids.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 13:19
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 13:19
Yeah. I think that was a solid background that mom and dad gave us.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 13:23
So when you had that experience of sort of one day realizing that things were a little different, you mentioned it was a little, you know, you had a, an experience of feeling it descend a little bit on you, right? Um, how, you know, how did things change for you?
John Milham (Host) · 13:44
Actually, um, I haven't told this story, uh, in a podcast anyway before, or maybe I have, I can't remember, but I remember mom telling our 4 kids, I, I'm the youngest of, uh, I've got a brother and 2 sisters. And I think I was in Australia, I was a teenager, and mom told this story how they had gone to an astrologist, somebody reads birth papers and so forth. And they had said to mom and dad that, yep, you've got 4 kids, so and so, but one, one of them is gonna do something great. And, you know, being my own personality, I go, that must be me. You know, that must be me. I mean, who else would it be, right? And I remember that story Mom is telling and me thinking that, and I reckon that's just stayed for the rest of my life. That, that just feeling of self-worth, because after that story, you know, I went to high school and I failed 2 years. In high school in a row. I failed Year 11 and repeated it. I failed, sorry, I failed Year 10 and repeated. I failed Year 11, repeated it. And I remember being called to the office, you know, Year 11, and speaking to the, I can't remember who it was, but might have been the assistant principal. And they asked me the question, hey, Jaytha, pretty much gone down 2 years here. What do you want to do? You know, I said very naively, very naive, um, I want to be a doctor, you know. And they almost came back very quickly, said, look, kids who become doctors, um, A-grade students all the way through. So what do you want to do? And, uh, I said, ah, well, engineer, because I didn't know much about law. My brother's just gone into uni, engineering. And so they had to put me to the A class. So we had B, AB, and AB and gifted kids classes. Uh, gifted kids are those, you know, in grade 6s who did year 10 work.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 16:01
Yeah, yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 16:02
Uh, year 11 work. Uh, I was in the B class, all the kids who mucked around. I loved it. That was my— yeah, it's just my, my people. Uh, the A class was, you know, the, the good sort of studying people. And they just put me to the A class just for one match. Just, I think it was either applied or pure maths in those days, right? And I remember studying for the exam because I couldn't muck around. Everyone put their head down and studied. And, um, during the exam, I went to school the day I got the report. The next day I was walking to school, everyone was going, oh, you did really well. And I said, oh yeah, whatever. Walked into class, teacher gave me the report, I've topped the class in maths. You know, here's a kid who's just gone down 2 years and just gone to the next high level for one subject and topped the class in maths. And it's sort of, you know, reflecting back, it really shows how important environment is. Yeah. Um, and, and I, you know, went on to do year— finish year 11 and 12 and get into engineering and pass with distinctions. But, um, those early years was A lot of fun, don't get me wrong. I loved it, but I also got into trouble and did all sorts of things.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 17:18
I love that environment as a, you know, you become where you hang out almost.
John Milham (Host) · 17:24
Yeah.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 17:26
Yeah. A great thought. So of course you're an engineer and you're sort of conquering the world of engineering. You know, what was important at that time for you?
John Milham (Host) · 17:34
Get to the top. That's it. You know, it was all about, you know, where I can work. And, you know, I started an MBA, I completed an MBA. It was all about, you know, that corporate ladder. And I guess it's when I went to Sri Lanka, a friend introduced me to the cancer hospital there that everything changed.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 18:00
So you were just going back to your, you know, the place you—
John Milham (Host) · 18:04
Just a holiday. Yeah, just a holiday. And they said, oh, you know, Jayatha, why don't you come and, you know, they were part of the Lions Club in Colombo and have lockdown in Colombo. And they said, you know, we go to the cancer hospital, you know, the local cancer hospital in Colombo, you know, give out food items and so forth to the outpatients. And I just walked in there and I, and I just saw this mom and daughter on the floor, the corridors of the hospital. And I said, what are they doing down there? And they said, oh, they're floor patients. I said, what do you mean floor patients? Oh, you know, they come in, uh, they become outpatients, but they have nowhere to go until their next chemo or radiation.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 18:55
Right.
John Milham (Host) · 18:56
Wow. And they sleep on the floor. And I said, what? You know, I could never picture that happening at the Royal Children's, you know, in Melbourne.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 19:03
No, it's not that.
John Milham (Host) · 19:04
And, um, so I just couldn't walk away, John. You know, I think that was the turning point for my charity work. You know, that's, that's probably the, the turning point from me putting, you know, half my energy and eventually full energy towards making a difference to people as opposed to making a difference to the budget.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 19:27
So it's a fascinating, I'm always interested in what changes at that moment, you know, whether it turns something on or it feeds something that had been there but hasn't, you know, hasn't, has been overcome by, you know, family, career, you know, self-interest. Well, it's not, it's not selfish to deal with your own issues, but of course sometimes that takes up, you know, when we focus a lot of energy on it, it takes up all our resource. So did that switch on for you or was it something you feared?
John Milham (Host) · 19:58
100%. And I think when I said I want to be a doctor, you know, as a teenager in that, in that, in our school office, I didn't mean, and I know, you know, especially Sri Lankan, Indian, Southeast Asian families want their kids to be doctors, lawyers, engineers., right? And not because anything, they just want a better life for them, you know, uh, and status is really important. And for me, being a doctor, when I said I want to be a doctor, wasn't anything about status. It was about making a difference, right? And that's what ignited when I saw those kids. I love that, making a difference. So I think that was what I meant. And also, my dad has to be one of the most compassionate the compassionate person in the whole world. As much as my mom is very courageous woman, my dad is amazingly compassionate man who did a lot of, you know, helped a lot of people and charity work in Sri Lanka and even here when he came back, when he came in. And so I think once again, the seeds were there. It's a matter of meeting the right environment.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 21:15
Yeah. So, you know, with a, you know, taking a, you know, an engineer's view of helping people, you're looking like it's a huge hospital and a huge problem, right? Yeah. So, you know, why did you suddenly walk in and believe you could make a difference?
John Milham (Host) · 21:35
Total naivety, mate. Total naivety, you know. And I love that because I've, you know, it really taught me something about entrepreneurs. You know, that, that real naivety an entrepreneur needs to have. I know there's self-belief and there's skills and competence and all that stuff that people need to have. But they also need to be, you know, naive to go, yes, I can make that. I couldn't walk away. I came back to Australia. From that, from seeing those kids and mums and even dads on the floor, um, but mainly it was mums. And, um, I said, I just want to do a fundraiser, I just want to raise some money. And there was no thought about starting a charity, it was just, you know, let's get— actually, the first fundraiser was to buy medication so the kids won't vomit, because many men when you go through chemo, the medication makes, you know, anti-nauseous. So it was just to make $2,000 or $3,000 to, uh, buy some anti-nausea medication so the kids can eat and survive. That first fundraiser raised about $10,000, the next one $40,000, and 5 years later, probably a bit longer than 5 years, we raised $1.6 million Uh, here and in Sri Lanka, and we run today, we run the largest cancer transit home over there with 194 beds. Wow.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 23:10
So naivety turned into miracles, mate. How, how'd you know?
John Milham (Host) · 23:15
Yeah. And I always, I always say like, I really don't give myself the credit. I think there was this infinite mindset for me was we just need to build that. Yeah. You know, there's, there's like, there's no timeline. There's no pressure. We just need to build that. I'm just going to do everything I can to build that because it's only building. I mean, buildings go up every day. You know what I mean? We just need to build that. And nobody's really done that for 50 years in that hospital. You know, people just end up sleeping on the floor, you know, and we know that when you're immune compromised with chemo and radiation, that even the common cold can be fatal. So I just wanted to stop that, give these kids an opportunity to live and enjoy life and fight cancer. Started a team in Sri Lanka as well. So we didn't just raise the money here in Australia alone. We had a team in Sri Lanka, got my family together, you know, and friends. And I remember, you know, taking a tuk-tuk because somebody said, oh, you should go and meet this person. He's got a big business. And I remember, you know, with my suitcase, with my laptop in a tuk-tuk, uh, going to this big company and, you know, knocking on the door to this founder, you know, like an owner, CEO. And he goes, I'll help you. Wow. You know, I'll help you. And then all of a sudden we had the dream team of people who are really passionate about helping the country. Really well-to-do who also help to raise these funds.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 24:54
It's an amazing story and I'd love to explore a little bit more about what it really means, what's happening. But just let me take it back to you for a moment, right? Because like very confident, very capable, but of course some challenges have popped up. You mentioned 25, maybe longer years ago when you started to have OCD challenges, right? But what did that mean for you as you went through life? Life, right? How did you adapt to the realization that you had that diversity of situation? And you mentioned about gifts out of these challenges.
John Milham (Host) · 25:35
When I was diagnosed with OCD, I didn't know what the hell mental health was. Like, I mean, what is that word, mental health? So it was just about hiding everything from everyone. Because it was embarrassing. Because at this time, John, I was really, you know, try to climb the corporate ladder. I worked hard. I'm a hard worker. I put in a lot of effort and time, and I just didn't want anything stopping that. But it did stop me in terms of slowed me down. I remember walking into a news agency near work one day for something, and I saw a fridge magnet. I saw a fridge magnet and it said courage, you know, courage. And I thought, that's what I need, you know, I need courage. Because one of the things with OCD, you know, obsessive compulsive disorder, is that, you know, I had to check something 15 times before my brain said, oh, it's done, Jada. Yeah, you know.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 26:36
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 26:37
And being a perfectionist doesn't help. So I, I remember I always explain OCD as like being a drug addict. The intensity of the anxiety and the pain is so great that it takes you by the scruff of the neck and drags you for your next hit. And the next hit is the next check. And, and you do that and you create some kind of ritual to say 15 times or 10 times or 20 times. Yeah. You don't know. You don't know that you just got to sit with anxiety. You just don't know. You just keep doing it. So courage to stop doing it was a great virtue for me. There was three that really helped me. The next was compassion. So compassion is something that I studied in Sri Lanka and here I continue to study. My parents and I come from a Buddhist background. And compassion was one of those words that resonated with me. Not that other religions don't teach compassion, but that word compassion really was strong for me. And I thought to myself, I just need to be compassionate to myself first and foremost, you know. And so I was really trying to be kind to myself and not be so harsh on myself. And the third thing that sort of came to me is commitment. And funny enough, I was looking for that third word because if it's C and C, courage and compassion, my OCD brain was saying I need to find another, right? And I said commitment. That's my strength. That's my superpower, right? Commitment, perseverance, and determination. That's what I've been given by the people behind me, right? So the three C's were my virtues. And I always tend to say the three C's were my The 3 tablets, you know, that really got me through. And when it came to name the foundation, I called it Courage Compassion Commitment Foundation. That's why it's called the 3CCC Foundation. And that's, I think, when I really found my purpose. And that's why I say it's the intersection of my pain and my power.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 28:50
So your power, I love that idea of your mental health medication is your, you know, is your understanding of the 3 C's. So, and just before we move on that, just explain how you execute courage, compassion, and commitment. I suspect commitment is something we bring from, as you mentioned, from our ancestors or who we are a little bit or something about who we are. So how do you, when you are faced with that bully pulling you by the scruff of the neck, How do you apply your courage and your compassion to make a difference?
John Milham (Host) · 29:31
I always say that courage is not the absence of fear, but courage is in the presence of fear. Courage is to be seen. Courage is to be seen and to see. I felt I was seen, and I think I thank my mum and dad for that beautiful self-worth bucket they gave me to carry on through life. And I think a lot of people these days who are going through difficulties need to be mindful, be present, being aware, and see themselves and have the courage to do it. And it does take courage to see your own concerns, not just the concerns of others. Definitely compassion to be heard, compassion to sit and hear your own thoughts and what are you saying to yourself? What's that autopilot rumination that's constantly playing in the background? And to have that compassion and be kind to yourself and to kind to others. And then I think commitment to me, the 3, is to be valued because to be valued is a It's a real intent, you know, to value a person is an intent. You know, I value that person, especially to be valued when that person doesn't necessarily, you know, come from your own community or come from your own family or a total stranger. You know, what is the thing that I value about them when they're so different? You know. And so commitment to, to, because they kind of all go in circles because when you have that commitment, then courage becomes easier. And when you have that courage, compassion becomes much easier. And it's this constant cycle to be seen, heard, and valued.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 31:29
Wonderful. So once you understand that you could, you could execute the 3 C's into your life, what changed?
John Milham (Host) · 31:38
I jokingly say that I turned my Prozac to purpose. Um, you know, although I took it only for, I think, 2 or 3 months, 3 months. I think what changed was just having that inner self-worth, you know, having that value, you know, you know, we inherently come to this planet with a bucket of self-worth, you know, and the environment tends to either fill it or take it away from us. But how do we not ensure the environment is the deciding factor? How do we make sure that we are the deciding factor of our self-worth bucket? And that's where courage, compassion, and really commitment helps.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 32:22
Yeah. Does it— how do you see the world? How do you see others who are going through these struggles? Everybody has something that challenges them. That's the nature of life. How does this influence the way you see others?
John Milham (Host) · 32:36
Once again, I, I like to probably say it from a self-worth bucket, you know, from a self-worth angle. I, I, I tend to look at, uh, because I teach this in, in corporates and schools about value, and I, I try to break down value into three, um, three segments: self-esteem, self-worth, and selflessness. Okay, self-esteem, self-worth, and selflessness. Self-esteem, such a popular word. Everyone kind of knows what self-esteem is. It was the magical word in, you know, many moons ago. A psychologist used it like a common word, but there's a little flaw in self-esteem. Nothing wrong with it, but there's a little flaw in self-esteem. And if you think about it, it always relies on the validation of other people.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 33:26
Yeah.
John Milham (Host) · 33:27
Because one day it could be high, one could be low. So it's a sawtooth wave, this self-esteem thing. So don't get hooked up on self-esteem. Selflessness has a wonderful name, you know, Mother Teresa, you know, Gandhi, all those people, but at what cost? You know, there's always that selflessness that I do everything for others and not worry about myself. That must be And, and yes, so, so nothing wrong with selflessness, but at what cost is the question mark. That's again a sawtooth wave on our well-being. But that self-worth bucket is that gray area, like where does that come from, you know? Is it your back— your background, your culture, your parents, you know, your school you went to? And I think that is the key thing that is missing, you know. As much as we say we have a mental health pandemic or, you know, crisis. I think we more have a self-worth crisis. Not because we are bad people, it's because there's so much noise in the environment. There's so much distractions in the environment. And for me, the focus is about building self-worth so that we don't rely so much on our environment. Although as human beings, as people, we are a social being and we need to be connected and we do rely on people. However, in bad days, we need to look inwards and rely on ourselves.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 34:51
Yeah, it's a, I love that framework to think of the balance between, you know, what's for me and what's for others. That's a great one. You know, taking that forward, of course, you've, you know, you were there and you ran a fundraiser and it escalated and you had millions of dollars that, you know, making a difference in Sri Lanka. What was that about? Right. You know, like, what were you— was that about you? Was it about the world? Was it about others? Was it just something from compassion? Or was it, you know, you mentioned purpose driving you through this.
John Milham (Host) · 35:25
Yeah.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 35:26
What is the purpose? Right. You know, and where, and where, where does it go?
John Milham (Host) · 35:30
Yeah. I think for me, like the focus was, uh, it felt good. Yeah. Okay. It just felt good. It just felt like this is what I'm meant to do. Um, and I always say to people, I was on autopilot, you know, like this path to help. And don't get me wrong, John, there was many, many challenges, many challenges. I'll tell you about a challenge about the Lifeline Center a bit later. But I just, you know, I think it's that having that infinite mindset that we just need to stop these kids from sleeping on the floor. You know, that's it. You know, that's, that's what we needed to do. And there was so many challenges. We can't, we couldn't get a place to build this transit home. We had to, we looked for many years, you know, and finally we convinced the hospital and the Department of Health in Sri Lanka to give us a land and they did. Fantastic. And we're thankful. I think it's just this dogged need to help someone. But what came out of that was I was really helping myself, you know. And all of a sudden I've started feeling better because my self-worth bucket was filling indirectly, you could call it, you know, indirectly. My bucket, I look back and go, oh my God, my bucket's full now. Or at least it's enough that if a tsunami comes tomorrow, it's not going to hit rock bottom., you know, the wave's going to be deep enough, but my bucket is even deeper. Yeah. And I think I always look at the self-worth as a, as a depth of the ocean, your ocean. If, if there's a big wave, will it hit rock bottom? You know, and you need to, you need to prepare your bucket for those days. So as much as I was helping others, it really helped me.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 37:22
And of course you mentioned Lifeline, right? So you didn't stop at building a Transit House, a house to support people in moving. Like, I think it's like the Ronald McDonald of Sri Lanka, isn't it?
John Milham (Host) · 37:33
Yes, it is. Yeah.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 37:34
Ronald McDonald House. But you then, you saw other challenges and said, well, let's keep going.
John Milham (Host) · 37:42
Yeah. So my thought was, look, me and my family are fortunate to be here in this wonderful, beautiful country called Australia. And what I like to do is Copy and paste, you know, not reinvent the wheel, but copy and paste some best practice from Australia to Sri Lanka. So the transit home, we call it CCC House, you know, Courage, Compassion, Commitment House.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 38:04
Beautiful.
John Milham (Host) · 38:05
Which is a copy and paste of Ronald McDonald's. Yeah. Actually visited Ronald McDonald House to understand how they operate and pretty much made the biggest Ronald McDonald House in the world, 194 beds, right?
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 38:17
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 38:17
Wow. My, however, my, my passion was mental health because of my story, obviously. And I found out that Sri Lanka had one of the highest suicide rates in the world, in the top 10. This is 15 years ago. And I thought to myself, oh, I just need to call Lifeline and get Lifeline to help me to start a Lifeline center. And that's exactly what I did. So I called Lifeline a couple of times, got through. Uh, I said, look, I, I need someone to help me to start a Lifeline in Sri Lanka. Can somebody help me? And they said, oh, we've got, we'll put you in touch with our international president. Oh, she just happens to be in Melbourne, um, from Tasmania. So I met, met up with Mary. Mary Parsons was the president at the time. She's secretary on the board of Lifeline International, where I'm a, I'm the, the vice president on the board there currently. I took her out for dinner, had a bottle of wine. 6 months later, we had 2 trainers from Lifeline Hobart fly to Sri Lanka. To help me start a Lifeline Center, which we scrambled together with, you know, with phone lines and people. And it was December 2009. Today, almost 15 years later, it is the number one crisis support line in the whole country. And we, we are making a huge impact on suicide. Uh, I think it was, and don't quote me those exact numbers, but I think it was about 15 lives or more, between 15 and 18 lives when we first started a day that died by suicide. And today it's about 9. It's similar to Australia, 9 deaths a day, roughly about 7 are men.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 40:00
And of course, keeping an organization like that going and keeping it relevant and funded is a huge challenge.
John Milham (Host) · 40:09
It is because all what I just said to you has taken, it wasn't in a 2 years or 5 years. This is the journey of 20 years. We started the foundation in 2003. Now it's a DGR charity here in Australia, and we just celebrated our 20 years last year. This is our 21st year. So it didn't happen overnight. It was a long journey. And throughout that journey, I worked full-time. You know, this wasn't my full-time job. This is, this was just a hobby, so to speak, that became more than a hobby, I guess. But finally, 2 years ago, I decided, you know, had the long chat with the wife and I said, I'm going to quit my work. I'm going to spend a couple of years trying to do something I really love here. My next 20 years is going to be a project in Australia. And she said, go for it. And, you know, did some seller investment and dedicate my startup to start up this wonderful program called the Let's Start program here in Australia.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 41:23
An incredible example of courage, you know, role modeling. You know, great modeling, encourage, you know, moving into, uh, another phase of life, right? Taking the risk at this stage.
John Milham (Host) · 41:36
Honestly, it, it's the most uncertain time in my whole life, um, at 56. Me, and, and especially coming from that very conservative background— mom and dad extremely conservative. I'm probably the most least conservative in our family. And, you know, having those, that really, uh, solid job and going away to nothing at 56, uh, was the most uncertain time of my life. Uh, relied on my wife, uh, you know, to sort of support me and support the kids. I just reflect back and I ask my sister, oh, when was dad? How old was mom and dad when they first came to Australia? My dad was 56. Wow.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 42:21
Wow.
John Milham (Host) · 42:21
You know, mom was 49 and, um, you know, they did a huge step for, for the kids, you know, a huge, I mean, they, my dad was a senior assistant secretary at the Ministry of Agriculture in Sri Lanka. He had a really good job. Mom was a nurse. Uh, they both were settled, you know, so they came from certain to uncertainty. Um, and it was my turn.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 42:47
And Let's Talk. I understand, I often mention to people that we need conversations as a baseline of wellbeing in the community and we need 2 million of them a week, right? And we're a bit short of that number happening, caring conversations, intentional conversations. So how does Let's Talk work?
John Milham (Host) · 43:09
Well, first of all, as much as the outcome is better mental health and suicide prevention down the track, Yeah. The Let's Talk Doesn't Open doesn't really focus on mental health. It talks about the importance of being seen, heard, and valued, and the importance of building self-worth. We can't control the environment, but we can control what happens to us. We can control our self-worth bucket, the depth of our own ocean. When the tsunami hits, that we are still gonna be okay, we're gonna ride through, you know, that. So the Let's Talk really started actually through Lifeline in Sri Lanka. So I get a report from Lifeline in Sri Lanka every month, and there's 21 reason codes why people call us. And when we did the numbers, there was a beautiful bell curve of the most reasons why people call us. And the mean, the mean reason why people call us, the average highest reason was relationship issues, loneliness, economic problems. And then came your heavy-duty mental health issues and abuse and suicide ideation. And I thought to myself, why are people calling a crisis support line for relationship issues? You know, we need to sort something out., you know, in the ground before they even call us because we couldn't even keep up with the calls, by the way, in Sri Lanka. So I developed the Let's Talk program because it had nothing to do with mental health, you know, just let's talk, let's have a conversation. And the reason of letting everyone talk safely is so building psychological safety. And I thought, well, why? And it took me a while. It didn't come to me straight there at the time when we developed the program. But a few years later, it came to me that, oh, the reason why we're doing Letting Everyone Talk Safely is because everyone wants to be seen, heard, and valued. Yeah. You know, if everyone's seen, heard, and valued, then it will build the self-worth bucket. Although sometimes we don't want to be seen. Because of the fear of the consequences.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 45:28
Well, it's not safe sometimes to be—
John Milham (Host) · 45:30
it's not safe to, to be seen. Uh, and that's where we need to change that. We, because inherently, fundamentally, uh, the human wants to be seen and noticed. So that's where it's going. And we, we do run a program in schools. Um, we are pretty new to the game. We run a program in, in, in workplaces and in corporate, in the corporate area as well. Um, and the whole concept is to build the village, is to train enough mentors and buddies. So buddies, meaning kids, um, peer support mentors, as in adults, to create that village where people feel safe to talk about their stuff. Yeah. Any stuff. Yeah. You know what I mean? So we talk about vulnerability and I always think, you know, and I, I, I trying to figure out the difference between vulnerability and authenticity. And I've been wonderful today with you and shared my issues in mental health, but I don't feel wonderful. I just feel like this is me. This is me being my authentic self. Don't get me wrong, I didn't feel like that 25 years ago. Yeah, yeah. But, but yeah, so I, to me, it's Let's Talk is about being your authentic self so that We can be seen, we can be heard, and we can be valued.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 46:50
I love that you just said, I didn't speak authentically or vulnerably previously. And my view is that's a muscle we need to learn how to practice that consistently in all of our areas of life. So how do you create the opportunity for young Australians and workplaces to practice that?
John Milham (Host) · 47:15
Look, it just comes from wisdom of leadership. You know, leaders are promoted, uh, usually leaders are promoted because they're really doing good at their job. But, you know, I think we need to change that, uh, to say leaders should be promoted for being good at their job, but also being good with people. Yeah. You know, and with good at being good with people is being authentic and vulnerable. Yeah, simple as that. You know, if you can't be yourself, then you're not good with people because people want that from leaders. They want that authenticity and vulnerability from leaders. They crave that. So it starts with leadership being open, honest, and authentic. The ability to create that psychological safety, uh, the ability to say, hey, I can come to work, put my hand up and say, hey, I've got a great idea. Without feeling, oh, they're going to judge me or they're going to humiliate me. They think it's stupid. Or they can come to work and say, hey guys, I stuffed up. You know, I made a mistake without the fear of being, you know, humiliated, judged, and punished. If we can come to work, if we can come to school, or if you can go home with our hands up, and what I'm doing here John is I'm surrendering, right? I've got my hands up, you know. Now there's difference. The person in front of me could be holding a gun where I'm forced to put my hand up, or the person who have been very, very authentic and very compassionate to me to hear my story will embrace my story. And I would just, you know, I will be my authentic self with you. And I think that's what's missing. The ability to be authentic and vulnerable, not be afraid of the consequences. And so psychological safety is just, is alone is not enough. We need to build psychological resilience as well. So what I mean by that is, yes, we are making schools and workplaces safe, but we can go overboard and put cotton wool in everywhere so we don't hurt ourselves. But you know, that two people are different. You know, what's safe for me might not be safe for you under the same environment. But what we need to do is also build psychological resilience. You know, the ability to not just bounce back, but I'll call it bounce with and bounce off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bounce with, you know, the ability to bounce with someone else, that understanding that we are not alone, but also bounce off, meaning, you know, let it go to the keeper, you know, because I just can't handle everything that is coming towards me.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 50:07
I love that idea. And I think I'm hearing it goes back to your understanding of self-worth, right? If you believe that you will survive, then you will adventure and the knocks may, you know, bump you around a bit, but they, you know, you will survive.
John Milham (Host) · 50:24
Yes.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 50:25
Yeah. And what do you want the, you know, like I love the vision and, you know, the almost like inviting people to step into their next level. What do you want to have happen? You know, you talked about you're setting up the next 20 years, you've moved into a new career. Now you're building a new program and Let's Talk and Beyond is going to roll out. What do you see?
John Milham (Host) · 50:52
Happening? Well, firstly, I just want to thank my wife and hope she allows me to keep doing this. I've got a, I've got a 20-year journey I can look back on. And, and that in that 20-year journey is the story I told you about the CCC House, and then the Lifeline Centre, because CCC Line, Courage, Compassion, Commitment Line, copy and paste of Ronald McDonald House, and Lifeline. That took 20 years, and we are still maintaining that. And I look back and go, what happened in those 20 years? Okay, and in that 20 years, I didn't push pressure on myself. I mean, I, I put pressure on other people to make it happen, but I, you know, I didn't put pressure because the vision was so clear. It was just crystal clear. Yeah. So, and there was no pressure because I was working, I was earning earning and I was okay. Now the next 20 years is probably a little bit uncertain. However, the last 2 years, uh, that certainty has just getting smaller, little by little, getting better and better for me. Uh, it's just a mindset thing. I think it's just the fact of knowing that this is what we need, that the, the, the white elephant in the room is building our self-worth. Yeah. And nobody's really saying that, but there's a lot of focus on mental health, on, on the elements of mental health. Mm-hmm. But understanding self, um, even the word self-worth is not a, a famous word, right? I think that's where we need to focus. Build resilience, build psychological safety, build relationships. You know, they always say there's 3 types of relationships we can build: relationships with ourselves, relationship with others, and relationships spiritually, whatever that is for the individual. And I think today when we look at society, all 3 are suffering. You know, we don't have the time to build relationships with ourselves. We don't have the time to build relationships. I mean, I'm not talking about social media. I'm talking about real, you know, connection. We don't have time to build that and we don't have enough time to build spiritual connections as well. You know what I mean? So that's, that's, and if you look at relationships, it's connection and connection is a fundamental need for human survival. Apart from the air to breathe, water to drink, food to eat, and shelter, right? Connection right in the middle there.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 53:37
So that's a journey to clarity for you and for your mission. What would you like to tell people who are listening about what they do now? Well, you're like something that goes out and says, hey, this is what I know works for me. Maybe you consider practicing or trying this?
John Milham (Host) · 54:00
You know, I, I, I think one of the simple and probably the hardest things to do is write your own book. You know, I got asked the other day, you know what, you know, um, somebody said to me about, you know, what's a good book? You know, the best book is the book you write. You know, and, uh, it'll be say my life, author John Milham, right? And just to reflect on your life, just to stay still and in silence and to look back, acknowledge the people behind you, acknowledge your presence, and acknowledge all the progress you have made. Acknowledge what you like to have, which is the expectations. And some expectations really are also harming us, you know, our expectations. But when we actually look at what we have already progressed and where we come from, I think we have a more realistic expectation. Because the word expectation, if you write it down, John, expectation, the first two letters are X. And X is a has-been. So expectations is just a has-been. An illusion of your mind of what you think you want. We need to manage our expectations by understanding who we are right now and where we come from.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 55:25
And that is a great way because where we're going is I'm going to say thank you so much, Jay, for the wisdom and the vulnerability to share your story. And I'm feeling very inspired and want to get out there and, you know, Try some Triple C, mate.
John Milham (Host) · 55:44
Yes, definitely Triple C. That's definitely, look, you know, it's my personal virtues of Triple C's and every time I think about it, I think more and more, you know, how it's really helped me and how it's going to help me going forward.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 55:59
Beautiful. I'll add it to my fourth C, my personal code, the Triple C. I love it.
John Milham (Host) · 56:06
Yeah.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 56:07
Hey, thank you so much, mate. It's been an absolute joy to talk. I really appreciate your time and thank you on behalf of the world for what you have done and continue to do. Devapura, thank you very much, man.
John Milham (Host) · 56:21
Thanks, Sean, and thank you for the work you do as well.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 56:24
You're a champion.
John Milham (Host) · 56:25
Cheers, mate. Cheers. Thank you for listening to this episode of Kintsugi Heroes.
Jetha Devapura (Guest) · 56:34
Thank you to Colin Lilley for permission to use Broken as our theme music for this series.
John Milham (Host) · 56:41
If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
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