Greg Boerma · 60 min
After surviving a plane crash, losing a daughter to stillbirth, and years of chronic pain, Greg Boerma discovered that joy is not something you choose, it's something you become.
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Greg Boerma grew up in a large family deeply involved in sport, moving between swimming, basketball, scuba diving, ice hockey and more. He refused to narrow his life to one pursuit, wanting instead to experience everything available to him. A friend once described him as childlike for seeing wow in the flowers on a bushwalk, in photography, in every detail. That childlike wonder became his anchor.
Then came the fractures. A light plane crash left him with spinal injuries and chronic pain that lasted years. He lost his daughter Tabitha Rose to stillbirth at 21 weeks, a loss that devastated him and his wife differently, even though they loved each other deeply. For a long time, grief and trauma owned him. But around 2018, he made a decision to take full responsibility for his own well-being and started learning meditation. It took years before he felt the shift, but gradually his mind quieted, his pain released, and his sleep returned.
Today Greg works as a counselor supporting grieving parents, particularly fathers, through the Bereaved Dads Camp and Bears of Hope. He discovered that joy is not something you choose each morning but something you become when you stop carrying the past into the present. He reframed the loss of Tabitha Rose by asking what blessings came from it, and found his purpose in supporting others who grieve. He learned that forgiveness, especially of yourself, is the path to peace. And he built a life where pain and happiness coexist, where grief does not mean you stop living, but rather how you choose to honour the people you have lost by continuing your own.
⚠️ Content advisory: this episode discusses grief & loss, which some listeners may find distressing.
If you need support, you're not alone. Help is available: • Lifeline (24/7 crisis support): 13 11 14 · lifeline.org.au • GriefLine: 1300 845 745 · griefline.org.au
“I no longer choose joy. I wake up with joy. It's part of who I am now.”
“Your well-being is 100% your responsibility.”
“Happiness is a transient thing... whereas joy is something that is ongoing at a very deep level.”
The hero, today
Greg believes joy is something that underpins you at a deep level, separate from happiness which is fleeting, and he woke up one day realising he no longer had to choose joy because it had become part of who he is. Meditation took him several years to work into his daily practice, but it became the tool that let him release pain and calm his mind, and he now uses it to help others process their grief. When Greg lost his daughter Tabitha Rose at 21 weeks, he chose to reframe his vision from all the sadness to seeing the blessings that came from her life, and this choice led him to his work with Bears of Hope supporting other grieving parents. Greg learned that his own well-being is 100% his responsibility, and that looking after himself fully does not make him selfish but makes him the best version of who he is so he can actually show up for others. Grief serves a purpose: it is the process that allows a person to accept a new normal in their life, one they did not choose and have no control over, and that acceptance takes time. Men and women grieve differently even when they lose the same child, and grief has historically been framed only around mothers, but fathers also experience a profound loss that deserves space to be expressed and witnessed.
Yes. Greg Boerma is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Greg believes joy is something that underpins you at a deep level, separate from happiness which is fleeting, and he woke up one day realising he no longer had to choose joy because it had become part of who he is.
Meditation took him several years to work into his daily practice, but it became the tool that let him release pain and calm his mind, and he now uses it to help others process their grief.
When Greg lost his daughter Tabitha Rose at 21 weeks, he chose to reframe his vision from all the sadness to seeing the blessings that came from her life, and this choice led him to his work with Bears of Hope supporting other grieving parents.
John Milham (Host) · 00:01
This limited Kintsugi Heroes podcast series was made possible through grant funding provided by the New South Wales Department of Communities and Justice Connecting Seniors grant program. If you'd like to find out more about Kintsugi Heroes, head over to kintsugiheroes.com.au. Welcome back to our Kintsugi Heroes special series Connecting Seniors. This year we are continuing to share the experiences of aging Australians to create connections across our communities. In this episode, John Milham is joined by Greg Bormer, a man whose journey through life's ups and downs is both profound and enlightening. Growing up in a large family and excelling in various sports, Greg's path took many unexpected turns, including careers in teaching, architecture, and ultimately counseling. Through his own experiences of trauma, such as the loss of a child and surviving a plane crash, Greg learned to address grief and adversity with meditation, gratitude, and a focus on personal well-being. Join us as Greg shares his wisdom on finding joy and balance in the face of life's challenges. Sit back and enjoy Greg's story.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 01:28
Welcome, Greg Bormer. Welcome today to Consumer Heroes Stories of Honour.
John Milham (Host) · 01:34
Thank you, John. It's great to be here and to be able to share with you and your audience.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 01:40
We're going to look forward to hearing the snippets, mate, the snippets of wisdom and understanding, of which there'll be many. Now, because you have had lots of training, you're a qualified counselor and, you know, been, you know, participating in lots of education that have given you lots of qualification. But even more importantly for Kintsugi Heroes, you are well qualified in lived experience expertise. Greg, tell us a little bit about how you get to the place where you're looking after people through bereavement and focusing on men in particular today?
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Greg learned that his own well-being is 100% his responsibility, and that looking after himself fully does not make him selfish but makes him the best version of who he is so he can actually show up for others.
This conversation includes a big family, always moving, one record player, everything else, swimming, basketball, scuba, ice hockey, childlike wonder as a way of living, a plane crash and a decision to heal and gratitude as the antidote to suffering.
John Milham (Host) · 02:21
Wow, big question. Um, I grew up in a family of 6, always loved being in a big family. I was highly involved in, in sport, and I, um, to an elite level in a number of different sports. So I always had people around me, always had family around me, and So as my life progressed, I got married, had children, uh, it started in the education system, uh, teaching, um, then moved into architecture, and now in counseling. I've, I've done— having a big family, I've done a lot of different jobs, including buses and coaches around Sydney, cleaning, coaching various sporting teams, swimming school, you name it. I've done so much, but it's, it's been a beautiful set of experiences in my life and has given me a wide view of just everything that is in life and how beautiful life can be depending on our perceptions, what we allow ourselves to see in the world around us. Yes, so that's the journey.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 03:42
Yeah, well, that's a fascinating kind of CV, right? You know, a lot of people— did you, you know, with your big family and so on, did you feel like you were— that gave you freedom to be, you know, to pursue different things, or, you know, or were you sort of pushed like so many people pushed in a direction but rebelled against it or embraced it? What was that experience?
John Milham (Host) · 04:09
No, not at all. I, I, I've always lived life and wanted to be involved in as many things as possible, to experience as many things as possible. I remember, um, that most of my fellow teenagers would be getting records in those days, the old vinyls, and they'd have a collection. I only had two. Only two. One was a long play, and I forget the other one, the short play. But music I listened to happened to be on the radio going to sport, coming back from sport, etc. So yeah, I wanted to be involved in life, and I didn't want life to be where I just like one type of music, one type of genre.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 04:56
I—
John Milham (Host) · 04:57
if I liked classical, it might have been one classical piece. I loved it, um, and I That's how I've looked at life, to give everything a go, give everything an opportunity, and it's just enriched my life in such a powerful way. So I never was forced into anything. Um, yes, Dad encouraged me, and to my, um, uh, bucking up against the system a bit, as they say, um, to getting involved in various sports. But I look back And if Dad didn't do that, I would not have had all those wonderful experiences. And, and it took me out of being a shy person. I used to be a very shy person. So life has progressed, and I allow myself the opportunity to try whatever comes down my path along my journey.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 05:53
It's interesting, you know, you say you, um, you know, like you've you're sharing that you were very interested in sort of, you know, active in doing different things. Being good at sport often involves flow and concentration and focus, right? So you went to the elite level. What were your sports?
John Milham (Host) · 06:17
Weird ones. If I can put it, my two main ones, I guess, was swimming and, and basketball. But I was a scuba diving instructor. I, I did water polo. I, I loved, um, uh, bike riding, and I used to do mountain biking and road, road riding. I did ice hockey. Where do you want me to stop? I, I loved it all.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 06:43
I'm exhausted. Stop already. I'm interested, like, do you Moving to mastery, constantly seeking that highest expression, you know, like you're balancing kind of multi-participation but also focusing and learning skills and developing in an area. So, you know, is that just being a polymath? Is that you, or did you find particular skills to do that?
John Milham (Host) · 07:10
Um, I, I I just enjoyed it. And I— and because I enjoyed it and I allowed myself that opportunity, I gave it a go and found, wow, this is fascinating, this is wonderful, this is life, this is living. It's, it's not sitting around and waiting for something. No, it's, it's about going out. And, and even in my life now, I'm, I'm still doing those things. As a friend said to me, oh, probably 3, 4, 5 years ago, and I was taken back a little bit for a fraction of a second, she said to me, Greg, you're childlike. And I thought, what? And then I thought, no, no, you need to ask. Don't jump to any conclusion, which we can do quite often. I've learned to not do that these days. And I said, so what do you mean by that? And she said, Greg, you are like a child. You see wow in so many things. When we go out for a bushwalk, wow for this, the flowers, photography, whatever. And I guess that's just a reflection of who I am, that I am engaged in every aspect of life and and, and I see the beauty and the joy and the happiness. And I don't— that, yes, you'd also see the pain and the anguish and so forth, but it's what underlies you that is so, so important. And if I may say at this point, and this I try and put into my counseling as well, um, I once thought that happiness was the way to go until I read the book The Happiness Trap. Changed my thinking, and I realized that happiness for me, my reality, and it's become my truth, is that happiness is a transient thing. That as a child, as long as they're eating that ice cream they're happy and they're probably going, wow, maybe not. As soon as it's gone, what do they say? Can I have another more, please? More, more, more, please. You know, that sort of thing. The happiness only lasts as long as the experience lasts, whereas joy is something that is ongoing at a very deep level. And for me, even though the sadnesses that I've had in my life, like everybody else has, the traumas Even though those are there, at the same time I have that joy that underpins me and keeps me going and keeps me focused on the fact that life is what it is and I choose what I want to have in my life. I used to choose joy. I started a program for myself after my morning meditation. Today I'm choosing joy, Greg. Until one day a friend put online on Facebook some question about, so where does your happiness come from? What, you know, do you have to do something for happiness, etc.? And I started to write, yes, every day I choose joy. And then I realized and I changed what I was putting to, no, no, no longer do I choose joy, I wake up with joy. It's part of who I am now. And so, yeah, I want to have a smile. That doesn't mean there aren't the serious moments in life as well, and the sad ones.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 10:58
So it's interesting, it sounds like, um, being present to that moment is a particularly important part of you choosing or having joy daily. How do you— you mentioned meditation. Is that— was that a skill you developed, like being present most? People, you know, are challenged by the, by the, by working in the moment, right?
John Milham (Host) · 11:22
Yeah. Um, I, I, I made a decision, oh, years ago, can't remember how many now, but where I wanted to heal myself from the various traumas in my life. As I said, everybody goes through traumas and challenges. And a woman once said, a number, uh, online, that, um, your well-being is 100% your responsibility. And I started thinking about that because my life was about my family, my life was about my students, and when I became a school principal, it was about my, my teachers and the parents, etc. It's about others. Like most people, most people have that as, as their basis. But I realized I need to look after my well-being. And I always thought, if I do things for me, that's really selfish. It's about giving to others, giving back as well. And this woman said that if you look after your own well-being 100%, that you're going to be the best version of who you are, and you can then continue to unfold in your life. Because none of us are perfect and we make lots of mistakes, and as we go through life, but it's improving, and that as we go through life. And I realized that, no, looking after myself 100%, everybody else would benefit anyway. So in a sense, it's not really selfish. And I thought, wow, that's pretty cool. So I went down that path. I started doing meditations because of twofold. Um, well, maybe more than two, but one was I was in a plane crash, a light plane crash, um, a bunch of years ago, which left me with some spinal injuries and a lot of pain and a lot of painkillers over many years. I'm now off the painkillers. However, I do wake up most days with pain. So the meditation was a way for me to get up with that pain and just let it go. Just release it. Relax. The other thing with it is that I wanted to still my mind. I had huge problems trying to go to sleep. Having a big family, your brain is thinking, well, maybe it's not a big family, maybe it's just me. But my brain was going all over the place and I, and I needed to calm my brain down. Sorry, my mind, not my brain, my mind down. And I real— and I started the process of meditation. It took me a number of years before I started to see within myself those benefits of a calmer mind. And now I'm actually going to sleep, and I'm not staying awake for 2, 3, 4 hours and thinking, oh, I wish I could go to sleep. So living in the now is so important. I thought I was living in the now as a result of doing these different things, until I realized that when I bring the past into the present or into the now, that I'm actually putting that present— that past in the present into my future. We started talking, what, 10, 15, 20 minutes ago. And what we started on was going to be— now is in the future to then. And so I realized, no, hang on, I don't want to bring my traumas into the present. I don't want that to go into the future and to keep regurgitating. And this has become a very important thing in my counseling, um, and just support life for other people. That to live in the— in this now. And it's not necessarily the easiest thing to do because we've learned for so long memories are so important. And me being a photographic artist, as one of the other things I do, and I use that therapeutically in counseling as well, that that's in a sense taking a snapshot in time or something. But, and it's, it's one of those things, how do I present that so that it's now in this now and not necessarily in the past now? And it can do that as well. So yeah, that's, that's part of the journey for me.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 16:06
So it's interesting when you talk about trauma. Of course, Bessel van der Kolk, you know, The Body Keeps the Score, talks about, um, you know, having, um trauma we go through, it's not the trauma or the event itself. And of course, a plane crash is a huge sort of event and it leaves you with consequences, but it's the experience of that that we then hang on to. So we can— so given that, you're like, you've both emotionally, you're like the family, and physically things like plane crashes, that's like It would be— it's, you know, it's wild to say, oh yeah, I was in a plane crash and I'm still— that's pretty impressive, right? There's a small subset of the population that can say that. But yeah, so how do you, like, how do you, you know, have that experience and then, you know, obviously through training or, you know, wisdom, how do you take the lessons from those things? Into the present, but, but leave the experience where it belongs in the past?
John Milham (Host) · 17:15
It's, it takes, it's a process and it takes, can take a lot of time. Uh, I've been doing the meditation over, um, probably 4 or 5 years now, so somewhere around 2018 roughly, where I've made a decision that I'm going to place— look after my well-being 100%, that I'm going to look for the truth, not my reality or another person's reality, but the actual truth, by spending time in gratitude. Gratitude has been really, really important to me. While I'm being— I have gratitude, I'm not then thinking about all the unhealthy things in life. We tend to focus— human beings seem to focus on the unhealthy. One only has to look at the news. The news has very few happy endings, situations Yes, there are those, but there's not a lot of it. And so I want to focus on being grateful for everything in my life and to sit down and to be grateful that I can have this conversation with you. I don't have to be in the studio with you. Grateful that I have a light behind me so you can see me. Grateful I was able to have breakfast this morning. Grateful that I am physically able to sit here and do this interview with you and do my counseling and everything else. Grateful that I have a camera so I can go out and take photos. Grateful that I have West African hand drums and do hand drumming workshops and therapeutic ones. All the things— have a car that I can get around the greater Blue Mountains where I live and be out in my greater nature. I used to say to myself, um, I'm going out into nature or to people, but I realized that I am nature, that you are nature, we are all nature. And it's so therapeutic for us to be in our greater nature. And so in life, for me, it's that therapy that is so important, and it's about looking at how do I reframe my life so I'm not always looking at the negative, which people call negative. I'd rather call it the unhealthy because I don't see negative and positive. There's not good or bad. There is just the challenges in life which help to grow us and to unfold us to our potential. And then when we do that, we can support and encourage other people by just being who we are.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 20:17
Absolutely right. I'm fascinated though, say if we go back to, you know, you talked about Big Family and that all that energy you were putting in experiencing things and so on. Um, how— like, there's a whole, whole bunch of, of, you know, feedback you're getting from life, right? Stuff that tells you you're successful or that, you know, that, you know, you're doing a good job, or worthiness, right? And we, we get attached to that. How do you— what, what are— how do you let go of that, right, to, to, to find that, you know, the, the balance, to, you know, to find the other in our lives?
John Milham (Host) · 21:05
Yeah, at, uh, when was it, in 2020, I think it was, I came across someone else's statement that I am totally independent of the good or bad opinions of others. That's flattery or criticism. And I started to think about that or meditate on that. So being independent, that totally— I'm not allowing myself to go down if people criticize me. That's their issue. And criticism, with that, for most of us, it tends to bring us down. We tend to put ourselves down as well then, and we start criticizing. Oh, I'm no good at this, whatever. And flattery on the— as well, it's elevating us above everybody else, and it's saying, well, I'm the best, I'm this, I'm that. And as soon as we do that, we can't live a life of even keel. It means you either put yourself below everybody else or above everybody else. And being a sportsperson, there can be a lot of flattery. And I— it's really tough, I think, for people who are in the public's eye in sport, in, in the music industry, in politicians, you know, any area where people are held up or criticized, put down, it's tough for them because they can't live an even life and, and be with everybody else. How often have we heard a movie star say, I just want to be able to walk down the road and be like everybody else? It's a tough gig for them.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 22:50
Yeah, yeah, we're conditioned to seek that, aren't we? We're conditioned to feel significance, you know, and seek significance amongst, uh, you know, you know, that's one of the dichotomies of life. Yeah, yeah. What, what, um, of course, you know, like we're talking about, um, uh, a state, you know, that our psychological and emotional state, but of course that translates into relationships and, and interactions in the world. How do you— like, where did you go through, you know, like, you yourself came from a big family, and of course you, you, you have a big family. How, how did that play out in those relationships, you know? Like, because when we're, you know, it's one thing to have, you know, that sort of equilibrium personally, but then we're, we're in the middle of this dance with others. How, how, how does that happen? How do you manage to stay equally, you know, what is it, balanced in that, in that situation?
John Milham (Host) · 23:55
Yeah, uh, as for everyone, it's, it's— I'm no different. It's not easy. And we allow our, uh, we have— all of us have feelings, and it's what we do with those feelings, our emotions, that impact those things. And in relationships at any level, whether it's an intimate relationship, whether it's a work relationship, a friend relationship, that what, what I've realized is that it's incredibly important to forgive each other. We have this idea that another person needs to be perfect We don't say it, but we, in reality, in our reality, we allow that to happen. And quite often in a relationship, people can feel hurt because the other person, whoops, said something not so nice. Well, what happens if they had a bad sleep that night and they're waking up cranky? Well, you know, that's understandable. It's what they do with their tiredness and so forth, of course. But our response— how do we respond? We often can respond with hurt. I'm hurt. You hurt me. You said something not nice. You did something not nice. And this is the person that loves us, if it's an intimate relationship, rather than saying, okay, how do I provide a safe space for this person to process what they're going through now? I know they love me, they've been there for me. How do I support them while they go down this process? And it all comes back to forgiveness. It comes back to I'm forgiving them for being— going through what they're going through now. And, you know, behind forgiveness for most things, as far as I can see, is fear. Fear. The fear that, oops, this person is not loving me anymore. The fear that, oops, I might lose my job.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 26:05
The—
John Milham (Host) · 26:06
whatever it might be. So what do I do? I try to forgive myself, and that's so important. And I often see it with the grieving parents that I'm working with, that they don't forgive themselves. For what's happened, the loss of their baby, for example. And this is true of so many other areas of life. And so to forgive is to live it in peace, to live in peace with yourself and to live in peace with another person or others. Do we have to be right? Do we have to have a say? We often say, yeah, but it's my right to have a say. I count. Well, we do count to ourself. And so living that life of being even-keeled is so important that coming back to ourself, coming back to how we live. There's a book I'm looking up above me. On my bookshelf. I cannot see it. Um, oh yes, here it is. Reinventing the Body, Resurrecting the Soul. And, um, it's an amazing book. And there was another one that I read where this, this, these two men from opposites, opposite countries, where they're the opposite country killed most of their family in war, and they are now working in America. And because they realized that the conflict was not between one nation and the other, the conflict was within themselves. One of these men was standing on the street waiting for someone. Elderly woman from the other nationality came walking down the street fiddling with a little purse of, of coinage, and it spilled out onto the road. His first movement was to move towards her to help her, to help her pick it up. But then he pulled back because, oh no, that's from the other— which did so much pain and hurt. Now they are talking about the inner conflict that each one of us has. And when I think about it, we do. We go through our own inner conflicts, our own inner battles. And I was thinking recently that people here in Australia were making comment about what's happening in what I call the Middle East, um, with all those wars and things, and saying that this side should do this, that side should do that. And I thought to myself, yeah, but what's happening within your own home? What's happening within your own work area? What's happening within yourself? We need to look at our own inner conflicts and those things that are happening within our own home before we really can make a comment about things that are happening overseas. People might not agree with me, that's okay. That's, that's just where I am at, at this moment. I want to look at what's going on within me. Comes back to my own well-being, as I was talking about before, being even-keeled and living my life knowing that I'm going to make mistakes, I'm not perfect, but that I can live it to the best of my ability.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 29:45
Fascinating, um, thought there. And when you mention forgiveness, right, the forgiveness is, uh, you know, feels in some ways like a personal activity. And the— and then what we're offering others is acceptance, right? So the relationship, you know, what's under forgiveness is such a difficult place for most humans to touch, right? Accepting, you know, the actions and the rights of others and surrendering to them, right? How do we move that act from like an act of, you know, balance, right? Just saying, oh, I'm going to forgive. How do we actually turn that into a gift, right, where you actually, you know, positively regard somebody even if they've done something challenging in the world or to you?
John Milham (Host) · 30:45
Yeah, it can be a real challenge for each one of us. Um, I, I've come up, for me, and it's taken a number of years, to the 7 A's, what I call the 7 A's. I need to be awake first. If I'm not awake, who knows what's going on? You just don't know what's going on. If I'm awake, I then have the opportunity to be alert, to be alert to maybe if it's about forgiveness, about what someone else is happening in their life. The purpose person who was cranky as they served me is going through coals or whatever. So you need to be awake first so you can be alert, and when you're alert, you can become aware because you can see. You can then open your vision. When you're aware, then in brackets, two more A's, it's important to acknowledge that situation and then to accept it. Once we accept it, we then are alive and not on autopilot. And I don't want to live my life on autopilot. And so to go down that path of forgiveness, if we're on autopilot, we might just follow everybody else and be on their autopilot. And that seems to happen. It happened for a lot of my life. And to realize, to forgive people, to live consciously is to be awake, to be alert, to be aware, to acknowledge, to accept. And then I'm alive. And, and so it's putting all those things into a conscious life. And we are very good at following because that's where the comfort tends to be, rather than stepping out of that and saying, okay, I have a mind, let me start thinking. And if our heart— as they're talking a lot now about, it's our second mind or brain— maybe we need to feel a lot more. Maybe. I, I think we need to feel so much more about what's going on around us. Because if we can feel for another person's situation, look behind the underlying factors, then we can have compassion. We can then show empathy. We can show support and encouragement and, and help that person heal. Because we're— as Kintsugi is all about being broken. The potter that's been put together with gold. So why aren't we putting each other, or supporting each other, or offering to help another person to be put back with gold so that they become far more precious than what they were?
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 34:00
It's a great question you ask, so I'll sort of bounce it back. You know, so often men you know, what you're talking about is a level of acceptance and a level of emotional awareness, right, that you gain from, you know, like being alert, reflecting on what you see and putting it in context. Men aren't even— you know, I would propose men aren't even looking at the— you know, so what, what, what, um, you know, to ask that same question you proposed, what do we need to do to bring men into some form of reflection and awareness, and then on the path to, to being alive.
John Milham (Host) · 34:43
What I share with both the men and women I counsel and others is our inner dialogue. Our inner dialogue is our well-being. It's, it's our inner health, if you would like, and We live with our inner dialogue. And as, um, what was his name, Seneca—
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 35:10
I feel like all Seneca, a Roman theologian and philosopher, founder of Stoicism, of course.
John Milham (Host) · 35:17
Yes, that's right. We suffer more in our imagination than in our reality or in the truth. And so it's, it's coming to that point where we use the 7 A's to look at ourself. And when we look at ourself and the realization that we are no different to another person, then we can start to be there for others. Then we can start to encourage others. Then we can, um, we can, we can realize that— and it's so important in life to realize— it took me a while before I understood this that there is impermanence in life. Nothing ever stays the same, and therefore challenges will keep coming. They will not cease. They will keep coming. And those challenges are an opportunity for us to unfold, if we wish so, to our full potential, to do, to do things in life that have meaning and purpose and that are there to encourage and toward others. And so that impermanence, but also for us to resen— to surrender to uncertainty, which, you know, as I said to a grieving dad yesterday, you don't know the future. None of us know the future. So why are you worried about, will the pregnancy that you are going through now with your wife Will it end the same as the last pregnancy where you lost your baby? Why? And because we jump to conclusions, we don't live in this now as we were talking about earlier. And it's about it—
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 37:11
if—
John Milham (Host) · 37:12
what's the old saying? If you fail to plan, then you're planning to fail. It's not it's not about the planning. We can plan for the future. However, it's so important to always remember that no matter how much we plan, things aren't going to necessarily work out as we planned. Might work 100%, it might work 50%, it might work 10%, might not work at all. And to— I think we've got to come back to the truth in life about so many different things. And yes, we have our own truth, which we call our own reality. And everybody has their own truth, their own reality, from their own experiences, their own perceptions in their life, their own traumas, their own joys, and so forth. But there's really only one truth, only one truth. And coming back to that, accepting our inner dialogue has huge impacts on us. That forgiveness and, and, and loving other people, to, to be loving everybody and everything and without exclusion— not an easy gig because people who've hurt you— and by the way, we choose our emotions, we choose them. I never thought that until 2 years ago, and I realized I choose what I want as an emotion in life. And, um, as many people during COVID the COVID years, um, had things that were very hard for them to, to accept, or etc., and there were things that happened for me as well. And I woke up sad and not being able to go to my son's wedding in Sydney because of living out of Sydney. And I realized it's so important to acknowledge, to accept and acknowledge, as I said before in the 5 A's, that that's how I was feeling. And to allow that for a period of time— that's going to be different for everybody— but then now to let it go, let that weight go off my shoulders. What's the value in being sad all day? There is none. And that's a very practical thing, but it's also very much an inner dialogue, our well-being thing, that we— life continues no matter what. And it's how we continue. It's not what we bring from the past into the present and regurgitate. And that's what happens a lot with trauma. And I've been through trauma too. And I would just regurgitate it over and over again. And I thought, this is not good. It's not good for my well-being, and it's impacting others in my life. So it's so important that we look at what our meaning and our purpose in our life is now. And everybody is looking for that.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 40:23
Yeah, that's a, that's a big point. I'll go back just a little bit because of course, you know, your work now involves working with people who are in the middle of grief and loss and bereavement, right? And you mentioned you've been speaking to a grieving dad. It's interesting, you know, you were just talking about letting go of those emotions, right, of, you know, accepting and acknowledging and accepting. So, but we're not practiced as humans. We haven't practiced that, you know, like recognizing emotions as something we have control over. They just rush on and they seem to be overwhelming. You know, like so many people, you know, hold others to blame or, you know, express themselves without regulation. And in grief, of course, right, you know, from your own experience of of course, you have overcome that. So you're walking a path, you know, works. But how do you transmit that? How do you help someone regulate against something that is so huge? Many of us who have bereavement or at an early age or something, there's no class for that at school. It's not even spoken to. Most of us you know, don't have an encounter that in, you know, in a meaningful way in community. So how do you help someone in that moment when, you know, it seems impossible to do what you're asking?
John Milham (Host) · 41:56
Yeah, it's— well, first of all, I've had to live it myself. I have to speak the truth of what I've experienced. And it's no good saying this is what a textbook's saying. Because that's not a lived experience. And so when I approach this aspect, it's about this is what has worked for me, and there are many other people that it has worked for as well.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 42:27
It's—
John Milham (Host) · 42:28
we can often, with the loss of a baby in particular, our brain is firing off all these questions in those initial weeks and months and for some people for years. Lots of questions, blame, etc., regrets, whatever. But at the same time, our brain— sorry, our mind numbs us so that we can process and go through that. It is a process. And the thing I find is that some— something like meditation stilling your mind, bringing about for you a, a deep ocean full of, of, of calm. It's really important in that quest. I do everything I can to reframe for these grieving parents and for all of us to reframe, okay, what What are the blessings? What are the, the beautiful aspects of, of the, the trauma? Let's say the trauma that you've gone through. For me, my having lost my daughter Tabitha Rose to stillbirth, I, I wanted to change my vision from all the sadness and everything that surrounded that. And there's so much that surrounds it. Relationships with other people, how other people perceive you, and, and etc., etc. And I realized that what are the blessings? I wanted to see the healthy things that came out of that loss. I said to myself, well, what happens if Tabitha Rose is 21 weeks? That was her lifespan. The universe allowed her to live that long, and that was her lifespan, just as my other children have their lifespan, and as I, and as I have myself. From there, what have been the results of the loss and the grieving process? I'm now working with Bears of Hope, um, pregnancy and infant loss support, it's really not work, it's a passion. And it's about supporting other grieving parents, and it's about supporting them in their healing journey. And I see life as a healing journey for us all. And so I look at the fact that if I, I think about what would have happened with me if I didn't lose that daughter. And, and even what, what is the result of me having my other children as well? And I would not be the person who I am today if those things didn't happen. And so it's reframing your perceptions, our perceptions on life. And we have a history of how people frame things. Labeling is a good way of, you know, doing it. How often I've heard grieving parents say to me, 2 years down the track, they're at a party, family gathering, and someone comes up to them, and because they were laughing at someone's funny joke or whatever, and this person 2 years after say, oh, you should be still grieving, you, you know, you just lost your baby. No, as I said before, we, we can have what we call the dual process. We can be happy and still be very happy in our lives and content in our lives, but also have that pain, that hurt that is deep down, that is there. And as we talk about, it's the, the, um, uh, the fried egg model where the yolk is the grief, is the loss. It's always there. And then we can, around that loss which never changes, grow and unfold. And from time to time, there will be triggers in our life, and that's okay. But we learn that life continues on, and in continuing on, how can we— can honor our baby that we lost anyway?. And that's true for any loss, any loss in our life.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 47:10
That's a profound point. The idea, of course, Kintsugi, which is from a philosophy, Japanese philosophy of wabi-sabi, which is impermanence and human change and transformation, right? Of course. But, you know, depends on us experiencing things. So, you know, but grief leaves its scars, you know, leaves its effect, its impact on us. But of course, we, we are still living and changing and building stuff. So how do you encourage people? You mentioned before that comfort zone of grief, that comfort zone of, of having, you know, responding to trauma, staying victim, if you will, or staying in pain. Right. And of course, you mentioned Seneca. Marcus Aurelius, I think, is credited with saying pain is inevitable, but suffering is a choice. How do you get— help people move from the acceptance of pain and the choice to move away from suffering?
John Milham (Host) · 48:20
A lot of aspects to that. It's about them coming into realizations, realizations that they cannot change what has happened, that none of us who have had a loss of a baby, or for that matter any person that's had a loss of someone that they've loved or cared about, we can't bring them back. And it's what we do with our life now. Life continues, and it's not that everything in life changes. Yes, there will be changes. There are challenges that continue. The thing is that it's an acceptance that, that what has happened has happened, and what can I do now to continue I'm not— I don't use the word moving forward or getting over it because we don't. Our life is one continuous life. It's not a whole lot of chapters and that chapter is now finished. No, because it continues on. And so how it's looking at, okay, what am I going to do? Do I want to continue to regurgitate what has happened? Do I want to continue my life? And how do I honor— it's about focusing on how do I honor the baby or babies or person that I have lost? What do I do? I have the— it's a choice. It's a choice to, uh, to either decline or to continue on. There's no option of sitting on the fence there. And a lot of us tend to want to sit on the fence. It's about how do I continue? And it's reframing my life because why? It's changed. And as we said earlier on, life will always continually change. Impermanence. So it's about coming to that point of acceptance. And they have to acknowledge that first. Grief is a very personal journey. Even though a couple who love each other have gone through a similar loss with their baby or babies, it's also a different experience. And I just wouldn't mind pointing out this point. The part of what I want to share with men and women is that when a couple lose a baby, that it's both the man and the woman that have lost the baby. In the past, it's been all about— particularly when I lost my daughter, um, 28 years ago— that it was about the woman. And so it should be. So it is. But it's also about the man. And to share that— what— who's the— just very simply, who goes out when you have a healthy baby and shares outside the birthing room or birthing suite with any family and friends that are waiting? It's the husband or the man generally. And what happens if you have had a loss? Who goes out and shares that? And who maybe goes back to work earlier? You know, it's the man. There's a couple, um, where the, the woman gave birth. The baby that they had didn't come up on the chest. It was taken meters away. And the woman said, where's my baby? 'Oh, we're just needing to do a few things. It's, it's all okay.' And the husband said, um, 'Do I need to be concerned?' And they said, 'No, no, no worries. You need to be here with your wife and you need to support her. All's good.' And so the woman was going through the trauma of everything that happens through the birth and after the birth. The man, he's standing there concerned about his wife, their first baby, concerned about his wife because first time it's all happened, but then looking around to see what's happening with his baby or their baby. And he did at one point turn around and noticed that they're doing cardiac compressions. And then a period of time later, not very long, the midwife came back with tears in her eyes and said, We're very sorry, but we've lost your baby. So a man and woman giving birth and having the loss, or even having a healthy baby, go through different experiences even though they're very similar. And a man does feel a woman, what she's going through. Where there is love, a deep love between two people, there is that energy, energetic connection between a couple. And sometimes we dispel that and we just look at the physical side and say, well, this is what happened, the woman went through all of this. But a couple that love each other deeply, I believe, I know that there's that energetic connection as well.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 53:54
Yeah, yeah, very true. It's, uh, and we're We're only now coming to an understanding of that process.
John Milham (Host) · 54:04
And finally, finally, men are getting the opportunity to express their emotions and not be able to only have anger, and anger is the only one they can express publicly. And one of the beautiful situations I'm involved in is with the Bereaved Dads Camp that we hold once a year where these dads can get together and the first time they can feel 100% safe knowing that the other guys there get it. So important. Shame it doesn't happen in general society, but it is getting better.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 54:38
Wow, an amazing organization. And of course, a question that sometimes I ponder: what do you— what's the purpose of grief? Like in the world, and, you know, individually we experience it. It's, you know, we're grieving for, for the loss, maybe of our, uh, you know, the loss for ourselves and the relationship we have with the person who's no longer around, or the loss of the, the input and, and benefit of the person who's gone, or the, you know, or the potential of their life. What do you think the world needs grief for?
John Milham (Host) · 55:23
Very, very good question. Grief, grief is there as an opportunity for a person to process a new normal in their life. And I've often thought, what's changed with someone dying now as opposed to, uh, the, the 12th and 13th century and so forth? And where it's, it's incredibly violent with people hand-to-hand combat with swords and things. What's the difference? And Have we become softer, softer or not? But it's that process, I think, of, of, okay, there's a new normal. In those days, oh, I lost my friends out in the battlefield, and how do I process it? And they had different ways of processing it. We don't have that sort of thing in our society now, and so it does give us that opportunity to process so that we can then move into a new normal in our life, one that we might not have wanted, one that we might not have asked for, one that is pushed onto us without, without our approval. And I think it's that getting used to the fact that I cannot do anything about it. And so that takes time to get used to. Oh, I can't do anything about it. I have no control.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 57:08
I've lost that control of that situation, which is another area of acceptance that men really struggle with, that idea that we can't control everything around us.
John Milham (Host) · 57:18
Yeah, and you know, the fact that a lot of men, or a population of men maybe is a better way of putting it, want to try and fix their partner, want to try and fix a woman. But we can't fix anybody. The only person we can fix, if we— or start that process, is ourself. And as I come back to our own well-being, we are 100% responsible for our own well-being. One of the greatest lessons I've learned. And if you're in a marriage a loving marriage of 30, 40, 60 years, you are still 100% responsible for your well-being, as is your partner. And, uh, and that changes things a lot because it takes away any type of control that you might have over your partner. And it happens both by men and by women. It takes away the fact that of that weight on your shoulders, that pressure. Now, it doesn't mean that we can't be there to support each other. A kind word here or there, make a cuppa, whatever might be necessary. But it comes from the other person saying, hey, this is what I need. Not what you think they need, but this is what I need. And that's all part of— I keep calling it a process, It's probably a lot more than that, but don't have a better word at the moment.
Greg Boerma (R) (Guest) · 58:50
That sounds like you, uh, what a beautiful example of the rhythm of life and connection. And, uh, and, uh, and you've given us a lot of, uh, wonderful, uh, experience, but also a lot of, um, insight, a lot of, uh, stuff for us to go and ponder and maybe work on our own meaning around things. So it's been an absolute joy to chat and to— and I would just like to thank you for so much truth and so much wisdom. Good on you, Greg.
John Milham (Host) · 59:23
Thank you, John. Much appreciated. It's been wonderful to be able to share these things. Thank you for listening to this episode of Connecting Seniors., a Kintsugi Heroes special series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next week.
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