Dr Ian Douglas
A vet who left a profitable practice to prevent rabies deaths shows how one person's clarity, combined with others who feel the same, can remake a community.
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At 13, Ian Douglas watched his father wound a hare instead of killing it. That moment stayed with him. Years later, after building a successful neurology and neurosurgery practice, he felt something was missing. He started volunteering with animal welfare groups and realised the suffering he saw overseas was preventable. When a group of vets met over too much coffee at a conference in Sydney, they decided to stop working alone. In 2005, Vets Beyond Borders was born.
Ian and his team chose Sikkim, a small state in northeast India, to test whether one place could become a model for rabies prevention. They found a community where two sisters had died of rabies, locked in their room and fed under the door. The scale of the problem was clear, but so was the solution: vaccinate dogs, sterilise them to reduce the population, and work with government to make it stick. Over nearly 20 years, they sterilised more than 100,000 dogs and vaccinated 400,000. Sikkim became the first Indian state to declare rabies a notifiable disease. There have been no human rabies deaths since 2016.
What matters most to Ian is not the numbers themselves, but that local vets and the government now run the program without him. That is how you know it works. He focuses on one dog at a time, surrounded by other people who feel the same way. Without that, he says, you would curl up and become overwhelmed. Today he is taking that model to Vanuatu, and when he is not planning the next deployment, he composes music based on what he has learned around the world.
“Is this a reasonable and fair and ethical thing to be doing? And I made the decision it wasn't, and that shaped my career from then on.”
“After a decade or more of doing that, I started thinking there's got to be more to life than just running a commercial practice.”
“It's not just a veterinary problem. Vets Beyond Borders cannot and will not resolve the problem as well as can be by itself. It has to be done through collaboration with governments, with human medical specialists and many other aspects of the problem.”
The hero, today
Rabies is almost invariably fatal once clinical signs develop, but it is entirely preventable with post-exposure prophylactic treatment before symptoms appear, yet this treatment remains unavailable in many parts of the world where rabies is most common. Reducing the stray dog population by shooting, poisoning, or mass impoundment does not work because it creates an ecological vacuum; animals from surrounding areas will move in and breed, so vaccination and sterilization programmes are the only sustainable approach. Successful animal welfare programmes require collaboration across government departments, human medical specialists, and community groups; veterinarians alone cannot solve the problem, no matter how skilled they are. The most important indicator that a programme is working is not the number of animals treated, but that local communities and governments take ownership of it and run it themselves without depending on outside organizations. Dr Douglas focuses on one animal at a time in the acute moment, rather than becoming paralyzed by the scale of suffering, and finds that working alongside other people who feel the same way makes the work sustainable.
Yes. Dr Ian Douglas is a real person who shared their own story in their own words. Kintsugi Heroes is a not-for-profit that shares first-person stories of overcoming adversity, told with the person's consent.
Kintsugi Heroes, a registered Australian not-for-profit. Every story is shared with the hero's own consent and reviewed under Kintsugi Heroes' trauma-informed content standard before it goes public.
Rabies is almost invariably fatal once clinical signs develop, but it is entirely preventable with post-exposure prophylactic treatment before symptoms appear, yet this treatment remains unavailable in many parts of the world where rabies is most common.
Reducing the stray dog population by shooting, poisoning, or mass impoundment does not work because it creates an ecological vacuum; animals from surrounding areas will move in and breed, so vaccination and sterilization programmes are the only sustainable approach.
Successful animal welfare programmes require collaboration across government departments, human medical specialists, and community groups; veterinarians alone cannot solve the problem, no matter how skilled they are.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 00:03
Welcome to another episode of Animals and Us, where we explore and honor the awesomeness of animals and our relationships with them. Today's guest is Ian Douglas, an extraordinary veterinarian and long-life advocate for animal welfare. From his beginnings in Scotland to founding Vets Beyond Borders and leading international animal health programs, Ian's journey shows how one person's passion for animals can transform form communities worldwide. Hello, Ian, and welcome to Animals and Us.
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 00:51
Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 00:53
Ian, I've thoroughly enjoyed researching your background and the work you've done for animals, and it's absolutely fascinating and truly extraordinary, so I really do feel privileged to interview you here.
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 01:07
The pleasure is mine.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 01:08
Ian, let's start from the beginning, from your childhood. You grew up in Scotland. Can you paint a picture of your childhood and how animals entered your life?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 01:19
Indeed. Yeah, I was a child of the '60s and my life did involve around mainly outdoor activities and music in the day. Our family was very orientated towards country pursuits. We lived on the edge of Dundee, a small town on the east of Scotland. And counter-intuitively, my first exposure, or one of my major memories of animal interaction in those days, was as a result of my father's interest in field sports. He was very into hunting, fishing, and shooting, and we followed lightly along with him until a certain point. I have vivid memories of when I was around about 13 years of age, I think, of being with him shooting and shooting a hare but not killing it. And it ran away into the distance howling. And both myself and my brother who were there at the time looked at each other and said, what on earth are we doing? And so that was a major factor in shaping my attitude to animals. The strange thing, well, the fact was that my father loved animals around the house. He looked after them exceptionally well. He bred Labradors. And as a— one of my first memories was being knocked down as a toddler by a herd of black Labrador puppies coming towards me. And so dogs were always a very strong part of our family life. And ever since that time to this day, I've always been surrounded by them domestically and professionally.
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The most important indicator that a programme is working is not the number of animals treated, but that local communities and governments take ownership of it and run it themselves without depending on outside organizations.
This conversation includes a hare that wasn't killed, why veterinary medicine made sense, the procedures that changed his mind, from neurosurgery to something bigger, coffee and too much excitement in sydney and the sisters locked in a room.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 02:52
Hmm. And Ian, what inspired you to become a veterinarian?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 02:57
Uh, well, I, I think I was a bit of a rebel because in, in my family most everyone was a, a medic or had a medical-related profession. And, uh, because of my life, love of outdoor living and, and interest in animals, uh, yeah, it seemed like a logical thing to do. But at 16, I can't say I was committed to it. It wasn't a, a life-shattering decision that I suddenly made. It was just seemed the best option at the time, one I have not regretted in any shape or form. Um, I'm blessed to have had the, the life I've had and, and, uh, been around animals all my life. I just love the whole concept of that and being surrounded by people who feel the same, um, in one setting or another. Um, so it, it, uh, I was only 16 at the time, so, uh, by 21 I was out and, and could actually do in those days more or less what I wanted. I could have set up my own practice, which seems which is crazy. I didn't, but I was still very, very young and still formulating all my ideas on life really at that age.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 04:04
So in 1974 was when you graduated and you worked in a clinic in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. Was there an experience from those early years that sparked a deeper interest in animal welfare?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 04:20
Absolutely. It— when one's being taught as an undergraduate, you accept didactically what you're being taught as being acceptable behavior, um, without thinking. And as soon as you're placed in a professional situation where you're asked to do procedures, you perhaps sometimes review what you're doing. And specifically, I'm talking about procedures like castration of farm animals, tail docking of dogs. And the like. And, and very quickly I started asking myself, look, is this a reasonable and fair and ethical thing to be doing? And I made the decision it wasn't, uh, and that shaped my career from then on. I moved out of large animal practice, uh, and started concentrating on small animals, where thankfully the ethics of, uh, treatment and procedures are a little bit— or were taken care of earlier. The profession is doing a great job now in making sure that we're only involved in procedures that we can justify from an animal welfare perspective. But the decision I made was to quit farm animal practice and to become more and more involved with dogs and cats.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 05:31
Right. And then eventually you moved away from clinic, mainstream clinic work, and moved towards not-for-profit work. Can you describe what made you, what instigated that shift?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 05:45
Yeah, it was precipitated by my past pathways through the profession. I left general practice and I've got a few more letters after my name and started running a more specialized practice in the realms of neurology and neurosurgery. And that kept me happy for a lot of the time. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a logical discipline and you could see the benefits of what you were doing. But after a decade or more of doing that, I started thinking there's got to be more to life than just running a commercial practice. And started looking around for, for other opportunities to use my skills and experience elsewhere. And just off my own bat, as many people, many vets were, as it turned out, I started volunteering with animal welfare groups active in the Pacific, mainly in the Cook Islands and Palau and other places besides. Found that to be particularly rewarding and very much needed. It opened my eyes to the fact that animal welfare is not uniform globally. It varies where it's reasonably high quality, but in other parts of the world there is marked animal suffering and totally preventable suffering in many instances too. And at that point, a few things happened that that sort of congealed pre the development of the establishment of Vets Beyond Borders, specifically the tsunami in the Indian Ocean in 2004, which killed, I believe, around a quarter of a million people and thousands and thousands of animals. As a result of that, the chat around and networking, it became clear that I obviously turned out I wasn't the only one thinking like this. And there was a group of us that were volunteering individually, and we eventually got together. I can remember vividly meeting in a coffee shop around a conference, an event conference in Sydney, drinking way too many cups of coffee and getting far too excited by the whole concept and deciding that it would be preferable if we joined forces and tried to maximize the impact of what we were doing and plan a bit more because there was no plan to what we were doing individually prior to that time.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 08:10
That led to the birth Vets Beyond Borders.
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 08:12
Absolutely. 2005, we became a registered organization. The charitable status came later, but at least we were working together to try to achieve an outcome and could decide what we wanted to do. And it became fairly clear fairly quickly as a result of the work of colleague Catherine Schütze in India. She's a devout Buddhist, had been working in Himalayan India for some time. And she had identified Sikkim as being a place where a small group, because we were at that time, could actually make a tangible benefit to animal welfare because of its small size and because of its location. Without sounding too academic, if you are trying to apply any new techniques or projects, it's nice to start small and have a fairly contained population of animals and humans and good statistics. And often in small islands, it's, it's a good place to start. We weren't able to do that, but we felt the need at that stage was greater in Sikkim, which is effectively an island because it's surrounded on three sides by the Himalayas and has a large river, the Teesta River, on its southern boundary, which effectively stopped much transmigration of animals, or at least did until A large dam was built quite recently, which has had significant impacts on that. But at the time, it was a logical place to start.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 09:43
Okay.
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 09:44
And so we started talking to the SSPCA in Sikkim, which was a group run by local vets, and they had connections to government, the Department of Animal Husbandry in that state. Sikkim is in northeast India. It used to be an independent state, and it has a fairly independent— that attitude to things and likes to go its own way. And the government was quite receptive to us starting work on our own just to demonstrate what we were doing. And the need was demonstrated quite clearly by the fact that although the vets working in that area were very pleased to have us, it became clear that one of the reasons they wanted to have us was because their surgical skills were not of a very high standard, sadly. In so many parts of the world, not so much now, it's being addressed, particularly in India. There was a strong accent on academic and theoretical knowledge and very little on the practicalities of procedures. And so we were happy to come and demonstrate the principles of surgery and anesthesia that were required before you could start to do meaningful work. I think that's part of the reason we were welcomed there, but it did give that entrée, and then we could direct things in collaboration as time went on.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 11:09
Ian, what was the core problem that you were attempting to solve in Sikkim? You did mention the training, further training of other vets, but what was the core problem that you were solving?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 11:23
Essentially rabies. Rabies is endemic in so many parts of the world. Globally, there are 60,000 deaths a year from rabies, and it's almost invariably fatal if you develop clinical signs. And 20,000 of those deaths are in India and a significant number in— not as high as some other cases— states, rather. And so the government could see the benefits of reducing rabies I have seared into my brain a story of my first little while in Sikkim. I went to visit the medical chief medical officer in Gangtok, which is the capital of Sikkim, and I asked him about incidents of rabies in the state. And we were chatting away and he actually said, oh, we do have a couple of clinical cases at the moment in sisters who were bitten by a dog a few weeks ago. I think it was a few months ago actually, because the incubation period is very variable. And I said, oh, that's interesting, in my ignorance. What, what are you— how are they getting on? What are they doing? Knowing full well the prognosis wasn't very good. And he essentially said that they'd nailed the sister's door, bedroom door, shut and were feeding them under the gap at the bottom of the door and were told not to come out essentially until the food wasn't taken in anymore. And that just was staggering. I don't— I can't testify to the veracity of it, but the fact that it was discussed just hit me hard. And I've seen rabies since then, and it's such a dreadful way to go. It does not matter whether you're a human being or an animal, One rabies death is one too many, and it's totally, totally preventable disease. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 13:22
Could you describe rabies and what the symptoms for both the dog and humans?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 13:28
They're similar. First of all, it's acquired through contamination of a bite or a scratch by an animal or theoretically a human if they bite you with the virus, which is a neurotropic virus. Contaminates the wound but heads into the nerve tissue and ascends through nerve tissue into the brain where the signs develop. And, and they're of initially anxiousness and restlessness and then spasms and seizures. Strangely, there is a well-documented hydrophobia component. The, the patients seem to hate the idea of having water around them, and we feel that's because their, their swallowing is affected and they don't want to swallow. They know they're going to have troubles, and that's why they react the way they do. That virus then, once the signs are progressing, migrates down from the brain through the nerve supply to the salivary glands and contaminates saliva. So if an affected animal or person bites you, there will be likely to be virus, and so the cycle is completed. And it's the most devastating and distressing to see and contemplate.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 14:47
And is it treatable?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 14:49
No, it's treatable— well, backstep— it's treatable if you know you've been bitten and you take the right course of action. Once the signs have developed, there's only been one recorded case out of the thousands of thousands where a human has apparently survived. So we have to say it's almost invariably fatal disease, but frankly, it is an invariably fatal— but if you have post-exposure prophylactic treatment before the signs develop, the prognosis is very good these days. Having that treatment available is the other thing, though. It's available in westernized countries and increasingly in endemic countries. But not so long ago, very rarely was it made available to communities where it was the major problem. Thankfully, that's one positive that's recently developed.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 15:40
So Vets Beyond Borders arrived in Sikkim with the intention of preventing— is it more of a prevention program?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 15:48
Well, it's all about prevention, absolutely. And the way that we accent it is any effective anti-rabies program has to be a collaboration because it's not just an animal disease, it's not just a human disease. Many, many factors that contribute to increasing or reducing incidence. So from a veterinary perspective, the one thing we can try to do is reduce the number of dogs or animals that are at risk of spreading the disease to humans initially, obviously animals as well. And the way we do that is absolutely by encouraging and putting in place an anti-rabies vaccination campaign, but also trying to reduce the potential pool for rabies-infected animals, and that is where surgical sterilization comes in. If you can reduce the population of dogs in any rabies-endemic area, you will— it's a factor— reduce the risks to people. And if you're vaccinating them at the same time, absolutely, that'll have a further benefit. But there are many other aspects to population control that are not related to surgical sterilization. In most endemic areas where rabies is a major problem, there is a lot of garbage lying around the streets. Rubbish collection is not what it should be. Dogs collect around those garbage piles, they feed themselves, they become fertile because they're eating quite well, and they breed more. They're also a hotbed of viral transmission. If the dog comes in and bites another dog around the garbage anywhere for that matter, it would spread. And garbage heaps are normally where people are coming and going quite regularly, and so they will be exposed more readily to infection by just doing what they do, just come from their house to the garbage heap and dump their rubbish. So yeah, in Sikkim they, they now have a very well-regimented garbage collection service, and it must much less common to see unattended piles of garbage or inappropriately disposed of garbage. There still is an issue, but it's just to demonstrate how complex the whole scenario is and how many things have to be taken care of. It's not just a veterinary problem. Vets Beyond Borders cannot and will not resolve the problem as well as can be by itself. It has to be done through collaboration with governments, with human medical specialists and many other aspects of the problem.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 18:22
And again, I know we've touched on before when we were speaking earlier that it's not only a complex problem, but the sheer numbers of dogs involved, of homeless dogs, stray dogs in Sikkim and, and the world is It's shocking. It absolutely shocked me. I know that, as you've said before, the numbers are very hard to measure, but can you give us some idea of the number of stray homeless dogs in India, for a start?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 18:54
The dog population as a whole globally is around about 700 million, apparently. Depending on which statistics you go to, they can be half that or double that. The expectation is based on research in India is that there are somewhere over 15 million stray dogs in India, and that figure could be double, um, according to, to who you read. Um, the Sikkimese government statistics most recently have estimated there are 6,000 street dogs in Sikkim. Now, one has to understand that there's various categories of dog. There's the true pet, as in Western communities where dogs are owned by a family usually. But in many other parts of the world, there are also community dogs where there's no designated owner. No one has prime responsibility for looking after the dog in that category of dog. They all care about the dog. They want it there. And street dogs are largely welcomed, not, not without exception, but community dogs have a definite place in the hearts of local communities. And so you've got to respect that. And one of the initial problems that we had when we started our work was trying to convince people that we didn't want to eradicate them. There was quite a movement, so don't cooperate because this group is wishing to eradicate street dogs. That was never our intention and could never be possible even if we wanted to. And then you have the true feral dogs, dogs that have no owner, no community who cares about them. They come and go, they'll wander, and they will form packs and hunting packs. And they do contain a large number of alpha males and some alpha females as well, who are largely responsible for an increasing percentage of the excess dog population. If you can't treat them, not put them down, but sterilize them and vaccinate them. And sadly, it's these alpha dogs that are the hardest ones to catch, so they tend to be forgotten about by groups that are trying to control the problem. But that is why we place a great emphasis on learning how to humanely catch these dogs so that we can address that feral dog problem. And it's a very skilled area. We're lucky enough in the past to have worked with a veterinarian cum animal handler, Dr. Mark Johnson from America, who's visited several times to India and other parts of the world where we work to train local personnel in humane handling. It is not dog catching. You've probably— if you troll the internet, you will see pictures of dogs being more or less strangled when they're being caught. And dragged into vehicle. That is just anathema to us. Yes, humane animal handling means just that. And it is perfectly easily indoctrinated into the people who are catching these dogs. Once they see how effective it is, they will be much happier to use those techniques when it comes to collecting animals for treatment.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 22:21
Were you ever bitten or threatened by dogs, and how did you manage that risk?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 22:30
A quick learning experience. And again, part of the humane handling is learning to understand body language. Mark Johnson, the trainer, spent probably 30% of the entire course trying to instill that understanding into people, how you can judge a dog from a distance, those dogs that are those dogs that are friendly, those dogs that just wish to be left alone, and those dogs that are potentially aggressive. And it's making that judgment. Certainly, yes, we've been bitten. Clearly we're all rabies vaccinated and that reduces our risk very dramatically. But it is something that you learn to judge from a distance, irrespective of whether you're a vet or an animal handler. And there are those dogs that are aggressive and are responsible for biting members of community irrespective of what we do. And yes, we as an organization are not opposed to euthanasia in cases such as that for the greater good. Yes, yes, we do rehome where we can, but there are some dogs that sadly it is impractical to try to do that. And so it's a hard call. Euthanasia is such a touchy subject in the world, and we have to tiptoe around that very carefully. Respect, particularly in Buddhist countries, their attitude to euthanasia. But with honest collaboration and sincerity, it's quite possible to develop a practical approach and a humane approach to these sorts of issues. But it takes us back to collaboration, not amending by us or an organization. It's working with the community groups in the areas in which you're active. And that is absolutely critical to any successful program of this type.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 24:17
Yes, I can imagine. Ian, you really touched on the complexity and the huge numbers that you have dealt with. Can you recall any success stories that really stood out for you that made you think, ah, this is working, this is going well?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 24:34
I think most of them are probably a bit boring. As I've touched on, to have a— to roll out a successful program, you need cooperation. And we were hard doing our clinical work and beginning to think no one really cared beyond our— the immediate communities with whom we were working. And then a couple of years after we started doing this work, we were invited to a meeting with the Chief Minister of Sikkim, totally unsolicited, but he'd heard about what we were doing and wanted to become more directly involved as a government., and that may be a bit tedious in some respects, but it, it was highly significant, and it led to us being able to develop the program across the state as a whole, and it led indirectly to the government taking on the program as a division of the Department of Animal Husbandry, and it led, following on from that, to Sikkim declaring rabies in 2015 as a notifiable disease. It was the first Indian state to do that,. And any suspect cases had to be reported, recorded, and data kept. Now, that may be tedious and administrative, but it is probably the thing that made me feel happier, knowing that, yeah, say, this is working. Yeah, there are other stories, absolutely, about community acceptance of it and how in the areas that we work without asking, the local community would roll out with meals for us, lunches. They did the most wonderful lunches just through our work days and offered to help us with cleaning and washing of drapes and things like that, which just showed the, uh, that the program was being accepted as, as a normal and positive thing to be doing. Good. Those are the things that really made me feel that we were getting somewhere. Obviously the number built up as time went by in regards to dogs treated, and that's very positive too. But more and more the work is being done by vets that are employed by formal organization, the department, within the Department of Animal Husbandry, and less dependent on us. We now have more or less stepped back from the controlling any aspects of the SARAH program, provide volunteers to help with their work and their campaigns, the vaccination and sterilization campaigns. But it's just heartwarming to see that it is now run by locals, funded more and more by locals, although I have to acknowledge the continuing sponsorship of Foundation Brigitte Bardot, who have been a long-term sponsor of our work, not just in Sikkim, but in many other parts of the world. Wonderful. Without that initially, particularly, and to this day, it does help the work that we're doing. But yeah, it's the sustainability and local ownership that makes me happy, being able to stand away and say this will continue without us. And that's the best possible outcome to any program, not just an anti-poverty program.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 27:42
So your programs have been appreciated by the communities that you've introduced them to?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 27:47
Yeah, it's localized. That's, that's— you can't achieve that and it's very unlikely that your program will continue in the long term.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 27:55
Yes. Yeah. Ian, you've worked in many countries around the world, including India, Bhutan, New Zealand, Australia, Pacific Islands. What have you noticed about different cultures and the way they relate to animals?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 28:12
Yeah, animal welfare and the concept of animal welfare is not uniform. It varies from place to place. Clearly, as I've touched on before, the Buddhists are very opposed to euthanasia, but that doesn't mean that they, although they try, that they can provide treatment to every dog they see. Sometimes, yes, from a local community perspective, it is just too hard. And suffering does seem to be accepted in some respects as a normal part of life, which is hard to see as an outsider and hard to justify as a veterinarian. But you have to respect the problems that are faced by these communities. In some countries, they have resorted to mass impoundment of dogs to try to get the dogs off the street and therefore put a barrier between them and communities at risk of rabies. But in so doing, the ghettos that they create for these dogs exacerbate suffering. I have memories of— dreadful memories of dogs in pounds just I won't go into it, but it is not the answer. It's a very convenient way of reducing dog numbers in a hurry, but it is not the answer, any more than shooting dogs. I should, I should accent here now that, why don't we shoot dogs? Why don't we just do that? Isn't that an easy way of resolving the problem? Well, sadly it's not, irrespective of the ethical nature of it. If you reduce the population of dogs by any means, poisoning or shooting, It will obviously kill those dogs that are approached that way, but that creates an ecological vacuum where there is food supply, there's no animals competing for food at that time, and animals will come from outside areas, populate that, and breed very satisfactory. It's not any sort of a solution irrespective of how effective it might be short-term. And that's why governments worldwide are faced with this dilemma: how do we deal with. And yes, it's easy to be overwhelmed, as you've mentioned, by the statistics, but when you see the benefits locally, uh, of what you're doing, and then on a national scale, as in, uh, as in Sikkim and hopefully Vanuatu, where we're working actively at the moment to establish a national program, uh, it can only be the help one dog at a time.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 30:45
Yes.
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 30:46
Okay. Yeah. Without that, yes, you'll just curl up and become apoplectic, I think.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 30:52
One dog at a time. And Ian, you've often spoken about the One Health approach, which is the linking between animal health, human health, and the health of the environment and ecosystems. Can you describe how that model, the One Health approach, has actually manifested in your programs?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 31:15
As I mentioned earlier, yes, when you're working in the area that we are, it's essential that one collaborates with the medical profession, with governments in all departments, including the environment departments. And as I mentioned, the rubbish department. Yeah. And there's a couple of cases that I always relate to when I'm asked this question. And the first is going back to Sikkim again. An aspect of our work there was working in the cold desert in North Sikkim, close to the Chinese border, where for understandable reasons there's a fairly high population of military personnel and army camps and communities around army camps are growing. There's a large waste component to the activities up there, particularly food waste. And so dog populations were growing in an area where there were there were very, very few dogs previously. And these dogs were eventually forming hunting packs. They became truly feral and were killing a lot of the, the native wildlife as, as part of their, their feeding attempts, particularly the, the vulnerable Himalayan tahr, which is a goat-like creature that lives in those areas. And that was impacting most dramatically on The endangered snow leopard and survival of the food source for that species is exactly the same as the dogs. And so we were asked by the Department of Environment to go up and see if we could address that. It required a different technique—catch cages, large catch cages, which we would stock with food over a period of a week or two. We wouldn't catch them initially. We'd wait until we'd maximized the numbers that were in these catch cages that were the size of a room. A big room. They weren't small at all. And then we would treat them, we would sterilize them, try to rehome them, we'd vaccinate them. There were some dogs that were these dangerous alpha dogs that, yes, we did euthanase. But again, the greater benefit was to try to help the local fragile ecosystems in the cold desert. So that's probably the major area that I cite when I'm asked about One Health. It's applicable to all the areas in which we work. You can see that if, if you include all aspects of a well-designed program, including public education, and we, we find— I, I spend a lot of my time now coordinating the work that we do, but other than that, a deal of it is spent talking to schools and community groups about how to behave around dogs, how to understand dog behavior, the risks to the human population from dogs, not necessarily rabies. Rabies isn't endemic in all areas of the Pacific at all, but there are still a list of other zoonotic diseases, diseases that can spread to the human population from dogs. Hookworm is a very common gut parasite that is infecting a significant percentage of the population in the Pacific Islands, and it's very easily prevented by regular worming and by picking up dog feces wherever one can. That's easier said than done, but by going into schools, talking not just about veterinary aspects, about medical issues, and providing advice on how they should behave and around dogs and how to medicate dogs to break that cycle of infection. Just general hygiene is, yeah, a critical component of what we do.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 35:10
And you also, in your education program, would you also touch on compassion and kindness towards animals?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 35:17
Well, that is an inherent part of behaving around animals. If you behave aggressively to dogs, they will behave aggressively to you. So there's various ways that we encourage children particularly to behave around dogs, particularly if they're being approached by dogs that they don't know. There's various things you can do in regards to your posture, being able to extract yourself from difficult situations. And as you intimated, if you're nice to dogs, they tend to be nice to you. It's easy to say that, but if you're living in fear of dogs, which sadly a large number of communities are, that's very hard to actually do. And so these classes do emphasize the fact that it is quite possible over time to make a definite change in the way dogs behave around you by changing the way you behave around dogs. And the importance of responsible pet ownership is also emphasized, though Not so many dogs are actually true pets as are in Western countries, but they're no less valuable because of that. And trying to develop some community approach to providing healthcare for the community dogs is important. But clearly there are financial implications to that, and that is a problem. We try to provide free medications wherever we can, and we're always looking for sponsorship to increase our ability to do that.. But we certainly emphasize the need for that to all the communities in which we work.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 36:57
Ian, Vets Beyond Borders relies heavily, I understand, on volunteer volunteers. Is it only vets who volunteer, or are there other roles, other roles and ways that people can help Vets Beyond Borders?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 37:12
Yes, we, we We are largely a veterinary organization, it must be said, vets and vet nurses. We mustn't forget vet nurses, without them we couldn't do the work that we do. We're always looking for assistance in regards to promotional activities and occasionally on board level representation, but we did try in the past to extend our reach into areas other than veterinary work, but it complicated what we did. I think, as a board member once said, we need to stick to our knitting, and we know what we're doing in the veterinary field, and we will leave it to others in collaboration to deal with many other aspects of what we do.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 37:57
Yes. So how many vets currently operate under the banner of Vets Beyond Borders? Foxman?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 38:07
We currently have about 500 registered volunteers that are indicated interest in volunteering overseas. In regards to other programs such as our AVERT program, which is our emergency response program in Australia, we have over 4,000 registered vets and vet nurses. These are individuals who have expressed an interest in being contacted in their area if there's a need. AVERT is not a standalone program, as it is a collaborative initiative. We are really only there for surge capacity in response to major events like the Black Summer bushfires of 2020. That's going to be deployed. Clearly, governments have the prime responsibility for deploying veterinary personnel in response to these events, which sadly are going to become more severe and more frequent. In the future. But I think it— if I was them, it would be good to know that we have this pool of vets that have indicated that they have experience in particularly wildlife, as also other areas of veterinary medicine, so that they can be contacted through us should the need arise. Hopefully it will not arise, but sadly, yeah, our experience in 2020 was that the existing veterinary services were quickly overwhelmed locally. What's going on.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 39:35
Yes, yeah, let's move on to the wildlife, wildlife rescue role, yet another role of vets beyond borders. What have you learned about caring for wildlife in emergencies?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 39:48
Again, our experience is largely, not exclusively, based on the 2020 bushfires of the Black Summer, and the problems largely arose because a lack of clear chain of command communications. And so we ended up responding to local requests because the animal welfare groups and wildlife carers rather that were working in that field were being totally frustrated by the lack of support that they were getting. And it's understandable why, because the demands were so great at that time. Yes, over such a large percentage of Eastern Australia. And so we did start to deploy vets independently. We tried to form collaborative chains, which we did up to a point, but it just wasn't sufficient. And so one of the debriefing points that arose subsequent to the fires was the need of governments to have a clear plan and how to approach the deployment of veterinary personnel, particularly— well, at all times of disaster, but obviously the broad-scale one. But I'm pleased to say that that is happening in almost all states around the country. So hopefully when, you know, if the next disaster occurs, the veterinary profession will be able to use its skills a lot more efficiently and effectively and more rapidly than happened last time. The other aspect of wildlife care is similar to our work overseas inasmuch as the attitude to euthanasia because a lot of— many wildlife care— well, all wildlife carers become involved because they love the endemic species in this country. But sadly, as humans and animals, burn injuries are severe. They're often fatal. They're particularly painful and very drawn out to manage, and no one can be managed satisfactorily. So making that call that a particular animal, it would be in its best interest with that animal to sleep is very hard when you've got an animal owner saying, look, I really want to look after this animal. I can do whatever I can. You just try to make them understand, or that they understand, but accept the fact that in this case, this animal is suffering and our ability to stop suffering is limited in this case. And that putting the animal to sleep would be the best option. Yes. Say so glibly. It's a decision based on detailed examination and assessment periods. I'm not pretending that I'm a wildlife expert. I am certainly not. But we do have staff, and government departments have veterinary staff who are trained in making such judgments. And yeah, that is a critical aspect of what we do. Yes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 42:47
So Ian, you have a team of hundreds of vets, as you just mentioned before, and they often go into these disaster situations. Mental health must be, I imagine, a major concern. How do you keep the morale of your team and how do you personally stay positive?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 43:06
Yeah, well, I think it's important to just re-emphasize that we are not standalone. We are working with government departments. The our volunteers are deployed through them and to them. We have our own protocols and policies of support and risk assessment. Physical and mental health is absolutely critical because, as you say, it does become very demoralizing seeing the scale of suffering these events cause. But more and more policy and protocols are being put in place to try to prevent it for a start, but identify those individuals at highest risk or those that are actually affected and provide treatment. Again, I'm not directly involved in these cases as a rule. I have— I did respond personally to koala injuries in South Australia during the 2020 fires. But yes, if you're working day in, day out with these unfortunate animals, it is a very wearing— Take its toll. Absolutely.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 44:13
And so, yeah, prevention. Personally? Yeah. And you personally, how do you stay positive? You did mention earlier one dog at a time. So I guess that also converts to other animals. So one animal at a time.
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 44:28
Just focus on the animal you're treating, not focusing on the scale of the problem. You can only do what you can do. Do it to the best of your ability, knowing that you're being surrounded by other people who feel the same. Yes. It's teamwork. And I think don't overthink it. That there's a time and place for that. But in the acute moment, that is not the time nor the place to do so. Yeah.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 44:54
Ian, what achievement with all your decades of working with vets beyond borders, what's an achievement that you're most proud of?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 45:05
When I'm asked, I always say there's no place for pride in what we do. Satisfaction. I am really delighted in the way that the organization has grown and is becoming a more mature and respected and involved organization in the region where we work, which is the Asia-Pacific and Australia. And just measuring the successes of our, of our programs. I looked up statistics the other day in regards to the, the SARA program in Sikkim. And between 2005 and 2024, more than 100,000 animals have been surgically sterilised and 400,000 have received anti-rabies vaccination. And that is significant in a location such as Sikkim. It is making a difference. There hasn't been a human case of rabies since 2016. And that's not to say that it's not present in wild animals and in some of the dog populations, but human deaths is, is, uh, yeah, very much reduced, uh, Sierra of late, which is, I find very reassuring and very satisfying. Um, and so yeah, I, I don't look at individual animals, although I know that my successor in Sukhum did, and she actually adopted a street dog and brought it all the way back back to Victoria where it's still living as a happy Australian resident. So yeah, there are individual animals that have had great experiences, but we have to think of the thousands and thousands and thousands that we are treating, and because that is where the benefits— Yes, yes.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 46:51
Ian, why do animals matter so much to you? That's a very good question.
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 46:57
They just do. Why, why is that? Because they're almost universally kind and caring and provide, as everybody says, unconditional love. It's not as simple as that. I think it's just in one's genetics up to a point. There are those people who identify with animals and those that don't. But I see the joy they bring to communities. I see the joy they bring to my kids. And it's a two-way thing. And so it's not hard. And hopefully most people do feel that way. Because most animals are kind if you approach them.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 47:36
Yes, yes, I agree entirely. Ian, there might be some vet or vet nurses listening to this podcast. If they would like to get involved with Vets Beyond Borders, how can they do so?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 47:49
Very easily, and we would encourage them to do so. Hopefully our presence and the knowledge of our existence is out there, but visit the website, vetswithoutborders.org. All the information about our programs are there. The, the VetTrain, which is our training program, which we really haven't touched on today, providing clinical training to vets and vet nurses in our region. VetMatch, where we send volunteers, vets and nurses, to work with our registered partner organizations overseas and assist us in the projects that we establish. Prima facie. Currently, that's more focused on Vanuatu, where we're in discussions with government over there to try to establish a program based on the Sikkim model. I'm delighted the Sikkim model is being used internationally now as a gold standard for animal welfare interventions, as is VetTrain, the basic training program that we rolled out in 2008. AVERT is a separate thing, as we mentioned, but it is more readily available to many vets who can't justify spending time overseas. Just being on that list, knowing that you can be contacted if need be. So yeah, absolutely, and it is there, and we encourage everyone to become involved in volunteering, not just to help, but it makes you feel good. It helps you as well. Yes, I can honestly say that I haven't been more satisfied with my professional life, although it's volunteer, at any time other than now. It's great, great as it has been.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 49:37
Yeah, wonderful. Ian, on that topic, on your life today, can you describe what your life looks like today? So you're currently, you're on the board and you're still very active in Vets Beyond Borders. You still, you continue to do a lot of volunteer work. What, what else do you do?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 49:54
Uh, well, professionally or personally? Both. Well, professionally, at the moment I'm, I'm involved in deploying the next team to Vanuatu, which leaves in a fortnight. So I'm heading off to Espiritu Santo on Wednesday to make sure everything's in place because we haven't actually worked in some of the places that we'll be going. So I need to make sure that everything's in place for our volunteers, and that's a fairly time-consuming activity, one I enjoy. And actual act of being there working with like-minded people is a, uh, yeah, source of immense satisfaction to me. Um, so that is essentially what I spend most of my time doing, and I will be focusing on Vanuatu for as long as I can because I do truly believe that being a relatively small nation and one of islands, it is a perfect place to develop an animal health, animal welfare program. Thankfully, there's no rabies there, but that doesn't mean that other problems don't need to be addressed. And so we're working on trying to establish a truly national program there, and I find that challenging, but hopefully in time it'll be rewarding.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 51:03
And when you're not working for Vets Beyond Borders, what do you, what do you like to do for, for leisure? What gives you, what else gives you joy?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 51:13
Away from VSB Onboard is music gives me pleasure. I've been involved in that ever since I was a tiny tacker pretending I was Jimmy Page way back in the '60s. I had to convince myself that I was, but that was a bit of a misconception. What sort of music, Ian, do you enjoy? Oh, I've got a very Catholic taste, as they say. I do like the world music aspect of it, possibly because of my exposure to it all over the world. I, I, I've appreciated the importance of music to people, and so the music that I write and compose tends to be based on those experiences. And I'm— I've got a, a group of friends here in Adelaide that we, we mess around with in our back rooms, playing to ourselves and no one else these days. But yeah, I think everybody needs a creative outlet, whether that's art, whether that's music, Who cares? But without that, I feel like one of my arms have been chopped off, I think.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 52:08
So it is a bit— Are you a vocalist or do you play an instrument?
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 52:11
I try to. Some people will leave the room when I do it. But yeah, I like to think I can sing a bit and mainly guitar and keyboard based. But yeah, it's fun. It's a distraction. Yeah. Wonderful.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 52:24
I'm glad you have a distraction too. Ian, again, thank you very much for your time today and sharing your story, your personal story, and also your your amazing work with Vets Beyond Borders. And if any of the audience would like to be involved or support Vets Beyond Borders, they can do so by going to your website.
Dr Ian Douglas (Guest) · 52:46
Absolutely. Well, thank you, Natalie. It's been a pleasure.
Natalie Stockdale (Host) · 52:51
Animals and Us is a production of Kintsugi Heroes. Thank you to Xavier Rudd for his permission to use 'Follow the Sun' as our theme music for this series. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the podcast with a friend and let us know by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to support Kintsugi Heroes and the stories we share, head to kintsugiheroes.com.au and follow the instructions to make a tax-deductible donation. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time. Brand new moon, brand new sun.
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